...but when I've seen screens executed better this year than in the last 10, and the offense lining up in a new 4-man bunch formation specifically to get Beckham open quickly, I've become a tough sell with regards to criticism of this offense by KG.
If there was ever going to be a change, it needed to be last year. Gilbride said Manning is a QB that is going to beat you with his brain, and not his feet, and that all of the fault lay at the feet of the O-line. I agree with that, but...
I also have to put some of the fault at the complexity of the sight adjustments by every single reciever, on every single play. If guys aren't on the same page, high INT's happen.
High INT's definately a product of the system, at least a contributing factor anyways... I really wanted to see what Eli looked like in a new offense that relied on higher percentage throws and less miscommunication. We've seen both of those in the new offense. Last year was now or never. Reload for the rest of his career in the same offense, or blow it up and get it back together so he can have a closing act in a new offense.
I guess we'll see how it shakes out over the next five years.
"People knew what the problem was. You can’t ask that guy to stand here and take the pounding that he took last year.
That's what you did. You asked him to stand back there, refusing to budge on your offense despite it being clear that the offensive line couldn't protect.
This team still can't run a simple screen play. There were a few more successes this year than last simply because they ran more, but overall they still really suck at it.
Part of the reason for the offensive scheme change was because of the large number of slow developing medium and deep routes in the prior offense. The bad offensive line made that a glaring problem. Moving to an offense based on quick reads and getting the ball out quickly is designed to help mask that and keep Eli from getting killed. However, the running game gets no better.
Gillbride's offense would be fine if he had an NFL quality line the last few years. The offense itself didn't suddenly become outdated. The problem was the personnel deficiencies were more fatal with that offense.
we made the change. I had been an advocate for a change prior to last season. I would have hated to see Eli stuck in the same god damn system for his whole career. Other QBs were able to play in different systems, and I am glad, finally Eli has the opportunity to play in this system.
Despite all of the personnel deficiencies, being without Jennings for a handful of games, losing Cruz, not having Odell until Week 5, etc.. we are middle of the pack offensively this year. Which, I think most of us would have signed up for last year.
This offense on last years team would have certainly had us better than 0-6 to start and probably in the playoff hunt later on in the year. It was the terrible, completely inept offense last year that kept us from even being a competitive football team.
We are not lighting the world on fire this year but only 4 teams scored less than we did last year. We were pitiful. This offense has been more competitive with a couple of crappy exceptions.
If there was ever going to be a change, it needed to be last year. Gilbride said Manning is a QB that is going to beat you with his brain, and not his feet, and that all of the fault lay at the feet of the O-line. I agree with that, but...
I also have to put some of the fault at the complexity of the sight adjustments by every single reciever, on every single play. If guys aren't on the same page, high INT's happen.
High INT's definately a product of the system, at least a contributing factor anyways... I really wanted to see what Eli looked like in a new offense that relied on higher percentage throws and less miscommunication. We've seen both of those in the new offense. Last year was now or never. Reload for the rest of his career in the same offense, or blow it up and get it back together so he can have a closing act in a new offense.
I guess we'll see how it shakes out over the next five years.
Britt, spot on but don't forget Gilbride's 3rd and short 30+ yard passes. How about his 3rd and long draw plays? Drive killers.
How does he explain the increased red zone efficiency? Â
But I don't think it's arguable that Eli and this offense have benefitted from a scheme that encourages getting the ball out faster.
TTH,
If I remember correctly, we started going more 3 step after 4 games.. Somewhere between4 and 6 games. Before that we were still trying to run our 5 and 7 step passing concepts.
The system was a boom or bust system. It was either very good, or very bad. I still remember that Denver Thanksgiving game where we looked like the team hadn't play together ever.
i.e. the O line, then he probably could have saved his job by changing his scheme to mask the obvious problems. To me it was a coach being married to one way of doing things and stubbornly so.
I've posted this before and I must say it again... Â
how can you possibly scapegoat a guy who ran a very good offense for a long time that won two Super Bowls and not apply the same logic or questions to those who run the defense and special teams...areas that have been notoriously weak, especially special teams. I know life is not fair but I would have thought the front office had more intelligence than that.
That being said, Gilbride is both right and wrong. The offense was broken but it was broken due to a GM who failed to rebuild an aging offensive line. The template was there on how to do it as the late George Young did in the late 1980's. All Reese had to do was follow that template. No question Gilbride was a scapegoat but the move to the west coast up tempo offense had to be made because our offensive line was so bad. It was the only offense that could help out a weak line and allow Eli to not get the shit beaten out of him every week.
No question KG was a scapegoat and everyone knows here I have experience with Gilbride here in Ottawa and have never been his biggest fan. Still, you cannot deny the success he had when we had a decent offensive line and could run the ball. I know Mara is the owner and can do what he wants but I would have loved to be in the room and been involved in that discussion. I surely hope someone told him that the problem was our OL was terrible, not the system.
We had lots of injuries this year but would we be any better had Schwartz played all year? I can't see it when you have a guy like Walton at center or Jerry at the other guard position. We still need vast improvement from the offensive line in 2015 if we are going to do anything. But that still doesn't cure the problems on defense and special teams. I don't buy the last two games against lousy opponents...our D has a long, long way to go and the system there is definitely broken and the guy running it has had problems year in and year out...even when we won the Super Bowl in 2011.
I appreciate what he did when he was there but I don't miss all the frustration that came with people not being on the same page frequently. Despite continued terrible OL play this year, Eli looked better to me. Hell, the offense looked more functional and not like a bunch of misfits (despite trying to run the ball too much.)
RE: How does he explain the increased red zone efficiency? Â
It was time for change, personnel was the issue both in terms of talent, and certain players (Randle, for one) not consistently grasping the complex system of reads/options/routes.
RE: RE: How does he explain the increased red zone efficiency? Â
But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone.
But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone.
I was concerned about your CBA point as well in 2011, but then we went out and won the Super Bowl. I actually think the biggest impact has been on Special Teams, where play league-wide has been fucking awful in the early part of the year.
In his last two season (IIRC) McAdoo was responsible for installing their weekly red zone offense. Good to see he brought the success GB has in the red zone to NY.
i.e. the O line, then he probably could have saved his job by changing his scheme to mask the obvious problems. To me it was a coach being married to one way of doing things and stubbornly so.
Great point! I had issues with KG play calling, but you have to give him his due. The Giants had a prolific attack for most of his tenure. That said, as a responsible coordinator, if he recognized that the OL couldn't hold up he should have adjusted in order to protect his Eli. Simplifying and shortening routes, more max protect, shorter drops.
In comment 12039149 Joey in VA said:
[quote] But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone. [/quote)
This^^^^^^
It's also hurting Fewell and his complicated defensive schemes too.
which we talked about at length once the CBA was ratified, there wasn't a ton of roster changes from '10 to '11, and Eli/JPP/Cruz and the pass rush got white hot at the right time.
lost me when he called a number of 30 yard passes on 3rd and 1 in the last couple of years. he was too rigid and did not adapt his approach until it was much too late
But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone.
I was concerned about your CBA point as well in 2011, but then we went out and won the Super Bowl. I actually think the biggest impact has been on Special Teams, where play league-wide has been fucking awful in the early part of the year.
That was year one though, when we had veterans who knew the system inside and out. I think as guys came into the league with only that short window for practice and tried to master this offense it got harder to do. We are now in year 4 of this and most of the players we have save the over 30 crowd have never had those long 2 a days in the NFL and countless hours watching film. We finally got on the right side of the ledger from a system standpoint but I still think some things need to be altered in how we operate.
TC has moved to a more cerebral approach to compensate for the time he doesn't get on the field but I think the opposite should be happening. I think the time allotted should be used to go full speed with the plays you have and get guys used to the tempo and get them trained up for the season. They need a physical tune up in practice, it should be max physical effort (not in pads that much obviously) when they have practice time. You have to teach obviously, but I'd rather see our guys going 100MPH and overwhelming opponents with that.
That's one of the big advantages college coaches now have, they are used to restrictions and know how to fine tune the players to that. It's another adjustment TC has to make. It's not a coincidence that college coaches usually flamed out when moving to the NFL, but lo and behold, new CBA, far less practice and Pete Carroll, Harbaugh, CHip Kelly all of the sudden are geniuses in the new NFL landscape.
If Gillbride thought changing was a good idea, he'd have done it Â
prior to getting fired. That was kind of the point, he didn't adapt the offense to the times and the personnel they had. That's why it was pretty bad for 3-4 years with Plax, Shockey, Toomer and then Eli had his best years when they transitioned to guys who got more separation and were better after the catch in (Smith/Manningham/Nicks/Cruz).
I've liked what Mcadoo's offense has tried to do and certainly the results have been pretty solid as it relates to Eli, and pretty impressive when you consider the lack of talent & injuries. In any game they've protected him Eli has played well.
But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone.
I was concerned about your CBA point as well in 2011, but then we went out and won the Super Bowl. I actually think the biggest impact has been on Special Teams, where play league-wide has been fucking awful in the early part of the year.
That was year one though, when we had veterans who knew the system inside and out. I think as guys came into the league with only that short window for practice and tried to master this offense it got harder to do. We are now in year 4 of this and most of the players we have save the over 30 crowd have never had those long 2 a days in the NFL and countless hours watching film. We finally got on the right side of the ledger from a system standpoint but I still think some things need to be altered in how we operate.
TC has moved to a more cerebral approach to compensate for the time he doesn't get on the field but I think the opposite should be happening. I think the time allotted should be used to go full speed with the plays you have and get guys used to the tempo and get them trained up for the season. They need a physical tune up in practice, it should be max physical effort (not in pads that much obviously) when they have practice time. You have to teach obviously, but I'd rather see our guys going 100MPH and overwhelming opponents with that.
That's one of the big advantages college coaches now have, they are used to restrictions and know how to fine tune the players to that. It's another adjustment TC has to make. It's not a coincidence that college coaches usually flamed out when moving to the NFL, but lo and behold, new CBA, far less practice and Pete Carroll, Harbaugh, CHip Kelly all of the sudden are geniuses in the new NFL landscape.
Were a little outspoken at times about the personnel and some of the comments Reese was making.But the bad coaches,they didn't really have much to say,so once again they are back to perform there December magic shows.
I like the look and feel of McAdoo's offense better. With a poor offensive line and relative unfamiliarity this offense is putting up similar production to Gilbride's groups at their peak.
There are fewer extreme degree of difficulty throws now. Go back and look at 2011...Eli was making ridiculous H-O-R-S-E throws all year. Inch perfect fades to the back of the end zone, slants and hooks to Nicks with DBs draped all over him, Ballard in New England, the Nicks sideline throw in Dallas, Manningham TD in SF, Cruz TD in the Super Bowl, Manningham in the Super Bowl...these are ridiculous throws that often necessitated ridiculous catches in tight quarters.
We see less of that now, with the obvious exception being the Beckham catch.
Despite all of the personnel deficiencies, being without Jennings for a handful of games, losing Cruz, not having Odell until Week 5, etc.. we are middle of the pack offensively this year. Which, I think most of us would have signed up for last year.
This offense on last years team would have certainly had us better than 0-6 to start and probably in the playoff hunt later on in the year. It was the terrible, completely inept offense last year that kept us from even being a competitive football team.
We are not lighting the world on fire this year but only 4 teams scored less than we did last year. We were pitiful. This offense has been more competitive with a couple of crappy exceptions.
You can not tell me Dallas has more talent on Defense than us.
But with the right scheme they win.
A aggressive DC would have won at least three more games. Maybe more.
Aside from 2013, Gilbride's offense was one of the most consistently good offenses in the NFL.
He was a great OC for the Giants and should not have been forced into retirement.
it was not consistently good - even pre-2013 it was wildly inconsistent; there were a number of games where we put up 40+ points and other games where we got blanked or nearly blanked. the scheme ran very hot/cold.
and his red zone play calling was atrocious as demonstrated by the stats above.
If he and the system was so great, why is he unemployed?
The system was stale, dated, and unnecessary in an offense-friendly NFL. It was like pulling teeth. Meanwhile, we see receivers running free all over the league.
Here's why I hate red zone efficiency as a stat...if you are a big play gaining team, chances are many of your scores come from outside of the 20 yard line, which don't factor into any of the stats.
It was either the 2011 or 2012 season, the Jets (who also stink) were #2 in the NFL in red zone efficiency.
The Raiders (yes, the Raiders) are #1 in the NFL in red zone offense THIS season. We know they are not any good.
I don't know what to make of red zone numbers. If the Raiders and Jets can top the league in that stat, are we really suggesting they know something the Packers and Patriots (who currently are ranked lower in RZ% this year) don't?
I find that very difficult to believe. Which I why judging the Giants offense based on red zone numbers is a faulty argument. Scoring is scoring no matter where it comes from.
Aside from 2013, Gilbride's offense was one of the most consistently good offenses in the NFL.
He was a great OC for the Giants and should not have been forced into retirement.
He had the benefit of an elite offensive line for about six years, in a league heavily slanted to offense and scoring.
Let's not make him into Bill Walsh.
Eli's completion percentage is at a career high, INTs are looking very manageable, and with some better blocking, the Giants offense will be right back in the top 10 without KG.
He did not endorse keeping Coughlin or the staff. He just said he was "too close" to the situation to comment. Presumably too close to be objective or to want to make a statement.
Kinda surprising that he did not say something like "Of course, they should keep Coughlin" Or "It would be foolish to even think about firing a man who won you two Super Bowls."
I don't know what to make of red zone numbers. If the Raiders and Jets can top the league in that stat, are we really suggesting they know something the Packers and Patriots (who currently are ranked lower in RZ% this year) don't?
I find that very difficult to believe. Which I why judging the Giants offense based on red zone numbers is a faulty argument. Scoring is scoring no matter where it comes from.
Bottom line with Gilbride's offense: When it was working well, it moved crisply from 20 to 20. After that, field goal attempt.
It was not only very vertical, it was so damn complex that the players that were not great learners had a very hard time remembering their assignments, resulting in pick after pick.
Again the LOW probability 3rd and short 30 yard passes and 3rd and long draw plays were just....fvcking stupid. Gilbride was a smart play designer, but not considerate of several facets of an offense.
People bring up the successful seasons he had on offense in his defense. Well folks, those years we had great Olines, Eli Manning and good backs and/or receivers too. A guy like McAdoo would have more likely than not done better than Gilbride with those seasons.
The proof will come when the Oline is back to "average" level. I'm glad Gilbride is gone. I hope Fewell is "retired" next.
In comment 12039149 Joey in VA said:
[quote] But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone. [/quote)
This^^^^^^
It's also hurting Fewell and his complicated defensive schemes too.
Fewell's defense isn't complicated. It just sucks.
were 7 under Gilbride with countless wasted timeouts b/c the play didn't get in on time.
The Giants have only 4 this year and haven't wasted nearly as many time outs.
Not to mention, the entire NFL fan base could call out the inside handoff prior to the snap of the ball. The monotony of Gilbride's play calling had to stop.
Many defensive player have commented on how in this system things are reversed from other systems and how they have to understand who covers who or where in the zone. How many times have we heard guys say I missed my assignment.
This offense has come to a slow halt much like the previous offenses, 2-3 seconds left on the clock still calling protections. Look we will never be a fast paced offense it's just not in Eli genes unless it's the two minute offense. Now I think many of us know he is very good at that but during the game he just can't seem to keep the pace up. If we could get to the line and maybe just not let the defense set then maybe just maybe some of those running plays might catch the defense unprepared.
...is OBJ. He is uncovereable in a short area. He can catch it inside, outside, way up high or off his shoestrings.
It can't just be that. Cruz has been here for 4 years and he brings some of the same short area skillset. It seems like it's just a philosophical difference in who to go to in the red zone.
..on the offseason spending are completely off base and have shit to do with the offense. We signed a middle-of-the-road HB to replace Andre Brown, a decent OG at 1/2 the price of what a top OG would get, a POS RG at vet minimum and shelled a out a little bit of a premium to gamble on injury recovery upside of a C that hadn't played in almost 2 years.
Exactly where are these sweeping upgrades that would make a hypocrisy of a scheme change? 1/2 of the offseason spending went to DRC.
any coach who are all under intense scrutiny and are ultimately questioned and criticized for an ineffective or bad product on game day. Was he too stubborn to adjust to personnel issues or was his scheme too complex to run? Sure, we can sit back point fingers and say it must be him when things aren't going well, and as much as I was frustrated at times of seeing the same old tired results on the field, I still can't bring myself to targeting him alone.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone's sticking a microphone in his face and they're asking him to speak on the current issues with the 2014 team, he's earned the right. What, only the fans are allowed to critiicize this team and coaching staff? Ridiculous!
I think we all have a very good sense of what's going to happen when the 2014 campaign is over and that will be at minimum the symbolic firing of Fewell. Will it be enough to shake things up as we hoped showing KG the door was? Who knows. I just hope, like all of us, that the ship is steering in the right direction come next season and were not right back here questioning yet another former staff member sounding off about the failures of the 2015 NY Giants.
KG's offense was the most consistently potent offense I've seen in my 45 years as a Giants fan.
We won 2 SBs with it, and in BOTH of those we had to come from behind for a 4th quarter drive, so we didn't win them with D...Do people remember the way -- with the right players -- the scheme frustrated the Packers' and Pats' DBs?
My biggest complaint was that it was complex and took a long time to learn for a lot of guys with all the sight adjustment and needing to be on the same page. But once learned, it was very potent. And, there is a reason we had our first WRs since Homer Jones make the pro bowl under KG.
He was a scapegoat last year. I think the replacement was a good choice, and I like the new O, but I don't think there was something "wrong" with KG's schemes in and of themselves.
Fewell, to my mind, deserves to go 50X more than KG did. (How a D can't stop a read option year after year, or even within the same game is beyond me.)
The issue is that everybody looks at KG's time here Â
Of course seeing a team that scores a lot sticks in your mind. The Giants are not a team with a ton of offensive history. That's not how memorable Giants games were won. Before TC got here, the last star, all-pro level Giants offensive weapon was who? Gifford?
Since Eli has been here I can not think of one season (save 2013) where the offense has been the weakest link on the team.
That offensive system, with Eli at the helm, delivered two titles and was a consistent performer year in and year out. One bad year, which I think we can all agree was mainly caused by shit personnel, and ownership goes ballistic and tears the whole thing down.
On the other side of the ball ownership and the front office has allowed a middling at best product to be put out there for years. THAT is where there needs to be the major overhaul.
Personally, I was indifferent to his "retirement" and the change to a new system. Gun to my head I probably would have kept him on board. 2011 sold me on that offense forever. What the passing game did that year, pulling out win after win late when the whole stadium knew the pass was coming was unreal. None of use know if the new offense will ever reach such heights and frankly I have seen nothing this year that proves this system will produce more than the old one. Sure the offense is better, but I think it probably would have improved had the Giants kept the old system as well.
I do agree that the OL was the biggest reason for our offensive struggles last year. One way to go would have been to give him the benefit of the doubt for a follow-up season with a dedication to actually fielding a decent OL. Instead, they allowed him to be a scapegoat even though we had our most prolific series of offensive seasons under him, only to have one clunker. Yet, Fewell, whose defenses have ranked in the bottom 10 of the league every year gets retained without a word? And Quinn, whose ST have been a point of contention and noted weakness every year gets retained without a word? And Pope, who has made chicken salad out of chicken shit every year prior to Myers coming on board gets let go?
That said, his route tree was a bit much when we had to plug in new guys after injuries or when guys like Randle were forced up the depth chart. But, this is something that could have been addressed with less reads incorporated.
To me, this season was a nice bounce back season for Eli and has been saved by Beckham. But, the jury should still be out on this offense and McAdoo.
RE: RE: Interesting article, and I agree with his opinion and premise.... Â
wish he had all these brilliant ideas last year and the past few seasons when we needed them. He should drink his Bosco and let life move on. Feel fortunate his son got a crony job along the way.
as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I agree. Overall, KG has done a hell of a job for us. Not a perfect OC, but one that should be respected.
However, the 3rd down draws are different. One OC has an amazing OL for a lot of his career. This OL is a shit show. When it's 3rd and 129198298138129 he is being conservative and not going to try to be aggressive and try to convert. That in turn keeps the Int count low. You're not going to risk putting your QB in a situation where the ball gets picked off. I have no issue with that.
but the problem was, this offense was too damn predictable. And I'm not talking about being predictable to us fans. I'm talking about, how many times did we have to read quotes from opposing players saying that they knew exactly what the Giants were going run. That's not good.
as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I think there are a lot of non-bashers that are simply pointing out the fact that is was time to move on from him and the system (which the organization agrees with).
Something that is never brought up: It was time to bring in some fresh blood that had could "fix" the offense, while becoming a potential successor to Coughlin.
Enter McAdoo.
Firing Gilbride/Hiring McAdoo is the main reason Coughlin will have a job in 2015.
as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I think there are a lot of non-bashers that are simply pointing out the fact that is was time to move on from him and the system (which the organization agreed with).
Something that is never brought up: It was time to bring in some fresh blood that had could "fix" the offense, while becoming a potential successor to Coughlin.
Enter McAdoo.
Firing Gilbride/Hiring McAdoo is the main reason Coughlin will have a job in 2015.
as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I agree. Overall, KG has done a hell of a job for us. Not a perfect OC, but one that should be respected.
However, the 3rd down draws are different. One OC has an amazing OL for a lot of his career. This OL is a shit show. When it's 3rd and 129198298138129 he is being conservative and not going to try to be aggressive and try to convert. That in turn keeps the Int count low. You're not going to risk putting your QB in a situation where the ball gets picked off. I have no issue with that.
There were a few times it was done this year when the OL was passblocking mediocrely enough to make an attempt on 3rd and 12 or 3rd and 15, and they were situations that really could have called for being more aggressive.
And Mcadoo has done the run run pass three and out more than KG ever did.
I love the redzone improvement and think Mcadoo will be very good going forward but the blind criticism of KG for doing things that Ben has been doing all year annoys me. Just screams people that never really knew what they were watching. (I know you're not one of those anish.
It's cosmically impossible to prove, but there are certain fans that feel the Giants could have had a Peyton/Brees level of success in the modern NFL with a QB as talented as Manning. Many folks see the immense talent, durability and pedigree and wonder why he had so much damn average play and production so many years. The answer is either Manning isn't as good as the upper echelon QBs or the system held him back. The Giants had streaks of great under Gilbride and streaks of shit. I tend to think the Coughlin/Gilbride system took a lot to get right, but when it did it was impossible to contain.
It will be the same narrative for the Coughlin era in general. Select moments of greatness mixed with some good and very bad.
as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I think there are a lot of non-bashers that are simply pointing out the fact that is was time to move on from him and the system (which the organization agreed with).
Something that is never brought up: It was time to bring in some fresh blood that had could "fix" the offense, while becoming a potential successor to Coughlin.
Enter McAdoo.
Firing Gilbride/Hiring McAdoo is the main reason Coughlin will have a job in 2015.
No, I'm ok with why we let him go. No issue with those using that rationale
The bashers act very stupid in their criticisms, I have no tolerance for that bullshit after what KG helped us win. (Watch some asshole will say 'but we won IN SPITE of KG)
Gilbride had limited success most of his career in the NFL Â
some early in Houston, some in Jacksonville, he failed in Pittsburgh, failed in San Diego, failed in Buffalo and had the two great playoff runs in 10 years with the Giants. Like Coughlin Gilbride under achieved pretty much every regular season they were together because of their inability to adjust as the season went on and teams changed the way they played the Giants to take away their strengths. He 100% deserved to be fired after last year. Not for the poor results with a poor OL but because he refused to adjust to his talent and insisted on running an offense that had no chance to succeed. As has been pointed out by several posters in this thread the 2011 CBA has changed the league and the offense that Coughlin and Gilbride ran has as much chance of succeeding in the 2014 NFL as the wishbone or the soft zone defense Coughlin has always favored. If Coughlin is coming back fro 2015 the owners better find a young DC who runs a 2014/2015 defense like they did on the offensive side of the ball or it will be another wasted season next year.
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christian : 2:39 pm : link : reply
It's cosmically impossible to prove, but there are certain fans that feel the Giants could have had a Peyton/Brees level of success in the modern NFL with a QB as talented as Manning.
And in general, those are the posters that seem to think winning 2 Super Bowl's isn't adequate enough. And in many cases, their arguments tend to come off that they'd rather have made the playoffs 10 years in a row without winning a Super Bowl than winning 2 and not making the playoffs.
Yet, Eli has had more success from a championship standpoint than either Peyton or Brees.
I can't recall anyone saying they'd trade 2 super bowl wins Â
as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I agree. Overall, KG has done a hell of a job for us. Not a perfect OC, but one that should be respected.
However, the 3rd down draws are different. One OC has an amazing OL for a lot of his career. This OL is a shit show. When it's 3rd and 129198298138129 he is being conservative and not going to try to be aggressive and try to convert. That in turn keeps the Int count low. You're not going to risk putting your QB in a situation where the ball gets picked off. I have no issue with that.
There were a few times it was done this year when the OL was passblocking mediocrely enough to make an attempt on 3rd and 12 or 3rd and 15, and they were situations that really could have called for being more aggressive.
And Mcadoo has done the run run pass three and out more than KG ever did.
I love the redzone improvement and think Mcadoo will be very good going forward but the blind criticism of KG for doing things that Ben has been doing all year annoys me. Just screams people that never really knew what they were watching. (I know you're not one of those anish.
There was a chance, but again the system, accordingly to BM, during the off season, said that the system will be tailored around the personnel. Considering we suck, he wasn't going to put the offense and Eli in those situations.
I actually find that refreshing. It's not like KG during the Seattle game when Eli already had 3 Ints under his belt, and before half time having him throw a hail mary for int number fucking 4. Why? Go into half time, your QB is having a piss poor day, not need for that shit.
So now this year, when I saw Ben M. being conservative in year 1 of this offense. I like that, I respect that. If we have talent and we still do that then I would be the first to be pissed. But our talent sucks.
I didn't mind the draws with KG when our OL was god like. I loved when Snee in his prime folded with O'hara and Snee would level the fuck out of the Mike backer, and Ward, Jacobs, and whoever, would have big games. I actually liked it. It was a great concept. Draw in general is a concept I don't mind. I love the way Dallas runs it with Romo, where he has that movement like he is going to throw, and quickly hands it off. That's actually my favorite.
Also it's not just 3rd down shotgun draws. There was a time when we had 3rd and short, like 1 or 2, and we'd be throwing 25-30 yards downfield trying to convert it. I remember on my game breakdowns I would see that often.
What KG did which was underrated was add new running concepts each year. He added Power, Power G, which we called it when I coached, and then added a mix of zone, ISO & LEAD, and then center, where we pulled O'hara.
It was amazing run design to fit our talent and we owned everyone. Great job by KG for adding new running concepts year after year. That impressed me probably more than anything.
Again, no OC is perfect though. Run, run, pass doesn't bother me. We obviously love balance or some sort of it. Maybe we want to do that to see what their doing for couple series and how they line up against us.
An example when I coached is there, I love being upstairs so I can see tendencies. So we call, run, run pass,... next series, run, run, pass. Now I see trends where the safety is creeping down. So now, I have single high pre snap shell.
I can tell the OC next series or next time, have Eli boot left or right, and let's high low the single safety, which by the way we dd this year. So we high low the single high safety, and maybe run a come back or shorter route just in case.
So fans see that shit, but it sets up something else later in the game. It's like playing Texas holdem. You can fuck with people by making them think you have a tell. And then bet heavy, and try to make them go all in thinking you're bluffing.
you're clearly not one of the people I refer to when I call their criticisms stupid.
You and I differ on maybe a few things philosophically but you understand the reasons he called what he did regardless.
I can't find much fault in those deep 3rd and short calls though. Firstly because you and I both know he wasn't calling 'Go deep on 3rd and 1', and secondly because we both know Eli's aggressiveness plays a role in where that ball ends up going.
And I personally watched our shotgun traps and draws work way more often than not so I never really understood what people were watching when they complained about it. Or they just conveniently forgot how often it worked and only remembered the few times it didn't. (usually the case)
I am not taking it personal or thinking you are. I just don't want to study for any final exams.lol. Damn Anatomy Practical and Physio is ball busting.
Plus it's an interesting topic. I actually like both coordinators. Both are different and I like that. I am glad we didn't Coach Sully. I would not have been happy with that. I wanted a brand new system.
Here's why I hate red zone efficiency as a stat...if you are a big play gaining team, chances are many of your scores come from outside of the 20 yard line, which don't factor into any of the stats.
It was either the 2011 or 2012 season, the Jets (who also stink) were #2 in the NFL in red zone efficiency.
The Raiders (yes, the Raiders) are #1 in the NFL in red zone offense THIS season. We know they are not any good.
I don't know what to make of red zone numbers. If the Raiders and Jets can top the league in that stat, are we really suggesting they know something the Packers and Patriots (who currently are ranked lower in RZ% this year) don't?
I find that very difficult to believe. Which I why judging the Giants offense based on red zone numbers is a faulty argument. Scoring is scoring no matter where it comes from.
It doesn't matter if your team leads the league in long TDs... you still want to score TDs when you get to the red zone. I agree that the stat can be manipulated by teams that rarely get into the red zone (like Oakland). That why it's important that we use the red zone efficiency stat in conjunction with the average red zone attempts stat.
- The Raiders are dead last in average red zone attempts by a wide margin.
- There are 3 teams that are top 10 in efficiency AND average attempts... Patriots, Saints, and the GIANTS.
For a team with o-line issues, RB injuries, and the general mess that's been the WR position, that's quite an accomplishment.
I like the look and feel of McAdoo's offense better. With a poor offensive line and relative unfamiliarity this offense is putting up similar production to Gilbride's groups at their peak.
There are fewer extreme degree of difficulty throws now. Go back and look at 2011...Eli was making ridiculous H-O-R-S-E throws all year. Inch perfect fades to the back of the end zone, slants and hooks to Nicks with DBs draped all over him, Ballard in New England, the Nicks sideline throw in Dallas, Manningham TD in SF, Cruz TD in the Super Bowl, Manningham in the Super Bowl...these are ridiculous throws that often necessitated ridiculous catches in tight quarters.
We see less of that now, with the obvious exception being the Beckham catch.
Eli was, in the truest definition of the word, MVP that season.
RE: The issue is that everybody looks at KG's time here Â
Of course seeing a team that scores a lot sticks in your mind. The Giants are not a team with a ton of offensive history. That's not how memorable Giants games were won. Before TC got here, the last star, all-pro level Giants offensive weapon was who? Gifford?
Of course seeing a team that scores a lot sticks in your mind. The Giants are not a team with a ton of offensive history. That's not how memorable Giants games were won. Before TC got here, the last star, all-pro level Giants offensive weapon was who? Gifford?
Mark Bavaro?
Okay, absolutely. And that was an all too brief two years.
Point being, there's no Jim Kelly K-Gun, there's no Air Coryell in Giants history. The closest thing to an offensive Golden Age in Giants history is the last 10 years, and in the context of the NFL, that offensive production was 'good', not great. But we look at it as 'great' because that's all any of us know.
how do you "fire the scheme" and then turn around and go on a massive free agent spending spree?
was it the coaches or the players? if they thought it was both, that's bogus imo
don't field a shit OL and then turn around and blame Gilbride when it (predictably) fails
If there was ever going to be a change, it needed to be last year. Gilbride said Manning is a QB that is going to beat you with his brain, and not his feet, and that all of the fault lay at the feet of the O-line. I agree with that, but...
I also have to put some of the fault at the complexity of the sight adjustments by every single reciever, on every single play. If guys aren't on the same page, high INT's happen.
High INT's definately a product of the system, at least a contributing factor anyways... I really wanted to see what Eli looked like in a new offense that relied on higher percentage throws and less miscommunication. We've seen both of those in the new offense. Last year was now or never. Reload for the rest of his career in the same offense, or blow it up and get it back together so he can have a closing act in a new offense.
I guess we'll see how it shakes out over the next five years.
That's what you did. You asked him to stand back there, refusing to budge on your offense despite it being clear that the offensive line couldn't protect.
Part of the reason for the offensive scheme change was because of the large number of slow developing medium and deep routes in the prior offense. The bad offensive line made that a glaring problem. Moving to an offense based on quick reads and getting the ball out quickly is designed to help mask that and keep Eli from getting killed. However, the running game gets no better.
Gillbride's offense would be fine if he had an NFL quality line the last few years. The offense itself didn't suddenly become outdated. The problem was the personnel deficiencies were more fatal with that offense.
I'm not a KG basher, but if you can't see the benefits of the new system, then you're not paying attention.
And if KG and his system was so great, why is he unemployed?
That's right, he "retired"
This offense on last years team would have certainly had us better than 0-6 to start and probably in the playoff hunt later on in the year. It was the terrible, completely inept offense last year that kept us from even being a competitive football team.
We are not lighting the world on fire this year but only 4 teams scored less than we did last year. We were pitiful. This offense has been more competitive with a couple of crappy exceptions.
If there was ever going to be a change, it needed to be last year. Gilbride said Manning is a QB that is going to beat you with his brain, and not his feet, and that all of the fault lay at the feet of the O-line. I agree with that, but...
I also have to put some of the fault at the complexity of the sight adjustments by every single reciever, on every single play. If guys aren't on the same page, high INT's happen.
High INT's definately a product of the system, at least a contributing factor anyways... I really wanted to see what Eli looked like in a new offense that relied on higher percentage throws and less miscommunication. We've seen both of those in the new offense. Last year was now or never. Reload for the rest of his career in the same offense, or blow it up and get it back together so he can have a closing act in a new offense.
I guess we'll see how it shakes out over the next five years.
Britt, spot on but don't forget Gilbride's 3rd and short 30+ yard passes. How about his 3rd and long draw plays? Drive killers.
I'm not a Gilbride basher, but he had his limitations for sure.
TTH,
If I remember correctly, we started going more 3 step after 4 games.. Somewhere between4 and 6 games. Before that we were still trying to run our 5 and 7 step passing concepts.
The system was a boom or bust system. It was either very good, or very bad. I still remember that Denver Thanksgiving game where we looked like the team hadn't play together ever.
I was tired of that.
That being said, Gilbride is both right and wrong. The offense was broken but it was broken due to a GM who failed to rebuild an aging offensive line. The template was there on how to do it as the late George Young did in the late 1980's. All Reese had to do was follow that template. No question Gilbride was a scapegoat but the move to the west coast up tempo offense had to be made because our offensive line was so bad. It was the only offense that could help out a weak line and allow Eli to not get the shit beaten out of him every week.
No question KG was a scapegoat and everyone knows here I have experience with Gilbride here in Ottawa and have never been his biggest fan. Still, you cannot deny the success he had when we had a decent offensive line and could run the ball. I know Mara is the owner and can do what he wants but I would have loved to be in the room and been involved in that discussion. I surely hope someone told him that the problem was our OL was terrible, not the system.
We had lots of injuries this year but would we be any better had Schwartz played all year? I can't see it when you have a guy like Walton at center or Jerry at the other guard position. We still need vast improvement from the offensive line in 2015 if we are going to do anything. But that still doesn't cure the problems on defense and special teams. I don't buy the last two games against lousy opponents...our D has a long, long way to go and the system there is definitely broken and the guy running it has had problems year in and year out...even when we won the Super Bowl in 2011.
I'm not a Gilbride basher, but he had his limitations for sure.
Do you have statistical proof of this?
Or are we going by the dreaded "eye test?"
Quote:
During his entire tenure, the Giants sucked in the red zone. Now they don't.
I'm not a Gilbride basher, but he had his limitations for sure.
Do you have statistical proof of this?
Or are we going by the dreaded "eye test?"
Red zone scoring stats are thankfully not that hard to find.
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct?date=2010-02-08
Touchdowns only %
2014: 62.75 Good for 7th in the NFL.
2013: 47.22
2012: 54.84
2011: 54.93
2010: 57.41
2009: 48.21
2008: 48.61
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone.
2013- #30 overall: 47.22%
2012- #13 overall: 54.84%
2011= #9 overall: 54.41%
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone.
I was concerned about your CBA point as well in 2011, but then we went out and won the Super Bowl. I actually think the biggest impact has been on Special Teams, where play league-wide has been fucking awful in the early part of the year.
2013- #30 overall: 47.22%
2012- #13 overall: 54.84%
2011= #9 overall: 54.41%
In his last two season (IIRC) McAdoo was responsible for installing their weekly red zone offense. Good to see he brought the success GB has in the red zone to NY.
Great point! I had issues with KG play calling, but you have to give him his due. The Giants had a prolific attack for most of his tenure. That said, as a responsible coordinator, if he recognized that the OL couldn't hold up he should have adjusted in order to protect his Eli. Simplifying and shortening routes, more max protect, shorter drops.
The talent is not the reason Eli is having a career year statistically and our red zone efficiency is at it's highest in Coughlin's tenure.
[quote] But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone. [/quote)
This^^^^^^
It's also hurting Fewell and his complicated defensive schemes too.
Quote:
But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone.
I was concerned about your CBA point as well in 2011, but then we went out and won the Super Bowl. I actually think the biggest impact has been on Special Teams, where play league-wide has been fucking awful in the early part of the year.
That was year one though, when we had veterans who knew the system inside and out. I think as guys came into the league with only that short window for practice and tried to master this offense it got harder to do. We are now in year 4 of this and most of the players we have save the over 30 crowd have never had those long 2 a days in the NFL and countless hours watching film. We finally got on the right side of the ledger from a system standpoint but I still think some things need to be altered in how we operate.
TC has moved to a more cerebral approach to compensate for the time he doesn't get on the field but I think the opposite should be happening. I think the time allotted should be used to go full speed with the plays you have and get guys used to the tempo and get them trained up for the season. They need a physical tune up in practice, it should be max physical effort (not in pads that much obviously) when they have practice time. You have to teach obviously, but I'd rather see our guys going 100MPH and overwhelming opponents with that.
That's one of the big advantages college coaches now have, they are used to restrictions and know how to fine tune the players to that. It's another adjustment TC has to make. It's not a coincidence that college coaches usually flamed out when moving to the NFL, but lo and behold, new CBA, far less practice and Pete Carroll, Harbaugh, CHip Kelly all of the sudden are geniuses in the new NFL landscape.
I've liked what Mcadoo's offense has tried to do and certainly the results have been pretty solid as it relates to Eli, and pretty impressive when you consider the lack of talent & injuries. In any game they've protected him Eli has played well.
He was a great OC for the Giants and should not have been forced into retirement.
Quote:
In comment 12039149 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone.
I was concerned about your CBA point as well in 2011, but then we went out and won the Super Bowl. I actually think the biggest impact has been on Special Teams, where play league-wide has been fucking awful in the early part of the year.
That was year one though, when we had veterans who knew the system inside and out. I think as guys came into the league with only that short window for practice and tried to master this offense it got harder to do. We are now in year 4 of this and most of the players we have save the over 30 crowd have never had those long 2 a days in the NFL and countless hours watching film. We finally got on the right side of the ledger from a system standpoint but I still think some things need to be altered in how we operate.
TC has moved to a more cerebral approach to compensate for the time he doesn't get on the field but I think the opposite should be happening. I think the time allotted should be used to go full speed with the plays you have and get guys used to the tempo and get them trained up for the season. They need a physical tune up in practice, it should be max physical effort (not in pads that much obviously) when they have practice time. You have to teach obviously, but I'd rather see our guys going 100MPH and overwhelming opponents with that.
That's one of the big advantages college coaches now have, they are used to restrictions and know how to fine tune the players to that. It's another adjustment TC has to make. It's not a coincidence that college coaches usually flamed out when moving to the NFL, but lo and behold, new CBA, far less practice and Pete Carroll, Harbaugh, CHip Kelly all of the sudden are geniuses in the new NFL landscape.
Good point. Thanks.
NFL Team Red Zone Scoring Percentage (TD only)
2007 super bowl year
54.93%
2010
57.41%
2011 super bowl year
54.93%
2012
54.84%
2013
47.22%
2014
62.75%
this is first year of offense and it has a much higher percentage of red zone success than any year of KG offense including the two super bowl years
There are fewer extreme degree of difficulty throws now. Go back and look at 2011...Eli was making ridiculous H-O-R-S-E throws all year. Inch perfect fades to the back of the end zone, slants and hooks to Nicks with DBs draped all over him, Ballard in New England, the Nicks sideline throw in Dallas, Manningham TD in SF, Cruz TD in the Super Bowl, Manningham in the Super Bowl...these are ridiculous throws that often necessitated ridiculous catches in tight quarters.
We see less of that now, with the obvious exception being the Beckham catch.
This offense on last years team would have certainly had us better than 0-6 to start and probably in the playoff hunt later on in the year. It was the terrible, completely inept offense last year that kept us from even being a competitive football team.
We are not lighting the world on fire this year but only 4 teams scored less than we did last year. We were pitiful. This offense has been more competitive with a couple of crappy exceptions.
The line was far worse last year than this year.
But with the right scheme they win.
A aggressive DC would have won at least three more games. Maybe more.
He was a great OC for the Giants and should not have been forced into retirement.
it was not consistently good - even pre-2013 it was wildly inconsistent; there were a number of games where we put up 40+ points and other games where we got blanked or nearly blanked. the scheme ran very hot/cold.
and his red zone play calling was atrocious as demonstrated by the stats above.
If he and the system was so great, why is he unemployed?
The system was stale, dated, and unnecessary in an offense-friendly NFL. It was like pulling teeth. Meanwhile, we see receivers running free all over the league.
2013- #30 overall: 47.22%
2012- #13 overall: 54.84%
2011= #9 overall: 54.41%
Here's why I hate red zone efficiency as a stat...if you are a big play gaining team, chances are many of your scores come from outside of the 20 yard line, which don't factor into any of the stats.
It was either the 2011 or 2012 season, the Jets (who also stink) were #2 in the NFL in red zone efficiency.
The Raiders (yes, the Raiders) are #1 in the NFL in red zone offense THIS season. We know they are not any good.
I don't know what to make of red zone numbers. If the Raiders and Jets can top the league in that stat, are we really suggesting they know something the Packers and Patriots (who currently are ranked lower in RZ% this year) don't?
I find that very difficult to believe. Which I why judging the Giants offense based on red zone numbers is a faulty argument. Scoring is scoring no matter where it comes from.
He was a great OC for the Giants and should not have been forced into retirement.
He had the benefit of an elite offensive line for about six years, in a league heavily slanted to offense and scoring.
Let's not make him into Bill Walsh.
Eli's completion percentage is at a career high, INTs are looking very manageable, and with some better blocking, the Giants offense will be right back in the top 10 without KG.
Kinda surprising that he did not say something like "Of course, they should keep Coughlin" Or "It would be foolish to even think about firing a man who won you two Super Bowls."
I don't know what to make of red zone numbers. If the Raiders and Jets can top the league in that stat, are we really suggesting they know something the Packers and Patriots (who currently are ranked lower in RZ% this year) don't?
I find that very difficult to believe. Which I why judging the Giants offense based on red zone numbers is a faulty argument. Scoring is scoring no matter where it comes from.
Bottom line with Gilbride's offense: When it was working well, it moved crisply from 20 to 20. After that, field goal attempt.
It was not only very vertical, it was so damn complex that the players that were not great learners had a very hard time remembering their assignments, resulting in pick after pick.
Again the LOW probability 3rd and short 30 yard passes and 3rd and long draw plays were just....fvcking stupid. Gilbride was a smart play designer, but not considerate of several facets of an offense.
People bring up the successful seasons he had on offense in his defense. Well folks, those years we had great Olines, Eli Manning and good backs and/or receivers too. A guy like McAdoo would have more likely than not done better than Gilbride with those seasons.
The proof will come when the Oline is back to "average" level. I'm glad Gilbride is gone. I hope Fewell is "retired" next.
[quote] But it was an offense that would simply not work without longer routes and better protection. The ball didn't come out quickly as a rule and the dimwit WRs we had were all sad with the sight adjustments.
I still think the CBA shortening practice time was one of the things that doomed this offense and Gilbride. His route adjustments and offense were complex and took a lot of time to learn and with the enormous amount of time removed from training camp and practices you just don't have the luxury of that time. It's a newer game, it's a simpler game and this change had to happen because of that alone. [/quote)
This^^^^^^
It's also hurting Fewell and his complicated defensive schemes too.
Fewell's defense isn't complicated. It just sucks.
The Giants have only 4 this year and haven't wasted nearly as many time outs.
Not to mention, the entire NFL fan base could call out the inside handoff prior to the snap of the ball. The monotony of Gilbride's play calling had to stop.
So nobody else has scored in the RZ?
It can't just be that. Cruz has been here for 4 years and he brings some of the same short area skillset. It seems like it's just a philosophical difference in who to go to in the red zone.
Exactly where are these sweeping upgrades that would make a hypocrisy of a scheme change? 1/2 of the offseason spending went to DRC.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone's sticking a microphone in his face and they're asking him to speak on the current issues with the 2014 team, he's earned the right. What, only the fans are allowed to critiicize this team and coaching staff? Ridiculous!
I think we all have a very good sense of what's going to happen when the 2014 campaign is over and that will be at minimum the symbolic firing of Fewell. Will it be enough to shake things up as we hoped showing KG the door was? Who knows. I just hope, like all of us, that the ship is steering in the right direction come next season and were not right back here questioning yet another former staff member sounding off about the failures of the 2015 NY Giants.
We won 2 SBs with it, and in BOTH of those we had to come from behind for a 4th quarter drive, so we didn't win them with D...Do people remember the way -- with the right players -- the scheme frustrated the Packers' and Pats' DBs?
My biggest complaint was that it was complex and took a long time to learn for a lot of guys with all the sight adjustment and needing to be on the same page. But once learned, it was very potent. And, there is a reason we had our first WRs since Homer Jones make the pro bowl under KG.
He was a scapegoat last year. I think the replacement was a good choice, and I like the new O, but I don't think there was something "wrong" with KG's schemes in and of themselves.
Fewell, to my mind, deserves to go 50X more than KG did. (How a D can't stop a read option year after year, or even within the same game is beyond me.)
Of course seeing a team that scores a lot sticks in your mind. The Giants are not a team with a ton of offensive history. That's not how memorable Giants games were won. Before TC got here, the last star, all-pro level Giants offensive weapon was who? Gifford?
Since Eli has been here I can not think of one season (save 2013) where the offense has been the weakest link on the team.
That offensive system, with Eli at the helm, delivered two titles and was a consistent performer year in and year out. One bad year, which I think we can all agree was mainly caused by shit personnel, and ownership goes ballistic and tears the whole thing down.
On the other side of the ball ownership and the front office has allowed a middling at best product to be put out there for years. THAT is where there needs to be the major overhaul.
Personally, I was indifferent to his "retirement" and the change to a new system. Gun to my head I probably would have kept him on board. 2011 sold me on that offense forever. What the passing game did that year, pulling out win after win late when the whole stadium knew the pass was coming was unreal. None of use know if the new offense will ever reach such heights and frankly I have seen nothing this year that proves this system will produce more than the old one. Sure the offense is better, but I think it probably would have improved had the Giants kept the old system as well.
That said, his route tree was a bit much when we had to plug in new guys after injuries or when guys like Randle were forced up the depth chart. But, this is something that could have been addressed with less reads incorporated.
To me, this season was a nice bounce back season for Eli and has been saved by Beckham. But, the jury should still be out on this offense and McAdoo.
Gilbride's 3rd and short 30+ yard passes. How about his 3rd and long draw plays? Drive killers.
Actually those plays had short and deeper routes. It was Eli who chose to throw it long.
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I agree. Overall, KG has done a hell of a job for us. Not a perfect OC, but one that should be respected.
However, the 3rd down draws are different. One OC has an amazing OL for a lot of his career. This OL is a shit show. When it's 3rd and 129198298138129 he is being conservative and not going to try to be aggressive and try to convert. That in turn keeps the Int count low. You're not going to risk putting your QB in a situation where the ball gets picked off. I have no issue with that.
They are 3rd in RZ efficiency this year, that's a helluva lot better than it was under Gilbride ('08 excepted).
I prefer to look at an overall body of work, than 1 measly example.
But to each his own, I guess...
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I think there are a lot of non-bashers that are simply pointing out the fact that is was time to move on from him and the system (which the organization agrees with).
Something that is never brought up: It was time to bring in some fresh blood that had could "fix" the offense, while becoming a potential successor to Coughlin.
Enter McAdoo.
Firing Gilbride/Hiring McAdoo is the main reason Coughlin will have a job in 2015.
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I think there are a lot of non-bashers that are simply pointing out the fact that is was time to move on from him and the system (which the organization agreed with).
Something that is never brought up: It was time to bring in some fresh blood that had could "fix" the offense, while becoming a potential successor to Coughlin.
Enter McAdoo.
Firing Gilbride/Hiring McAdoo is the main reason Coughlin will have a job in 2015.
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as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I agree. Overall, KG has done a hell of a job for us. Not a perfect OC, but one that should be respected.
However, the 3rd down draws are different. One OC has an amazing OL for a lot of his career. This OL is a shit show. When it's 3rd and 129198298138129 he is being conservative and not going to try to be aggressive and try to convert. That in turn keeps the Int count low. You're not going to risk putting your QB in a situation where the ball gets picked off. I have no issue with that.
There were a few times it was done this year when the OL was passblocking mediocrely enough to make an attempt on 3rd and 12 or 3rd and 15, and they were situations that really could have called for being more aggressive.
And Mcadoo has done the run run pass three and out more than KG ever did.
I love the redzone improvement and think Mcadoo will be very good going forward but the blind criticism of KG for doing things that Ben has been doing all year annoys me. Just screams people that never really knew what they were watching. (I know you're not one of those anish.
It will be the same narrative for the Coughlin era in general. Select moments of greatness mixed with some good and very bad.
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as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I think there are a lot of non-bashers that are simply pointing out the fact that is was time to move on from him and the system (which the organization agreed with).
Something that is never brought up: It was time to bring in some fresh blood that had could "fix" the offense, while becoming a potential successor to Coughlin.
Enter McAdoo.
Firing Gilbride/Hiring McAdoo is the main reason Coughlin will have a job in 2015.
No, I'm ok with why we let him go. No issue with those using that rationale
The bashers act very stupid in their criticisms, I have no tolerance for that bullshit after what KG helped us win. (Watch some asshole will say 'but we won IN SPITE of KG)
christian : 2:39 pm : link : reply
It's cosmically impossible to prove, but there are certain fans that feel the Giants could have had a Peyton/Brees level of success in the modern NFL with a QB as talented as Manning.
And in general, those are the posters that seem to think winning 2 Super Bowl's isn't adequate enough. And in many cases, their arguments tend to come off that they'd rather have made the playoffs 10 years in a row without winning a Super Bowl than winning 2 and not making the playoffs.
Yet, Eli has had more success from a championship standpoint than either Peyton or Brees.
We'd like both, ideally. Such a thing is possible. It can be done. At least not having two consecutive losing seasons, at minimum, can be done.
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In comment 12039850 GMenLTS said:
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as is the blind defense of him (i.e. poster homerjones)
The disrespect shown toward him is pretty pathetic regularly, and I can say that knowing full well that there were a few fatal flaws that plagued the offense on occasion through the years and more importantly sealed KG's fate in 2013.
Just taking in this thread for example, ripping KG for 3rd and long shotgun draws when Mcadoo has done the same thing this year at key time is just plain strange and shows a weird ass backwards confirmation bias.
I agree. Overall, KG has done a hell of a job for us. Not a perfect OC, but one that should be respected.
However, the 3rd down draws are different. One OC has an amazing OL for a lot of his career. This OL is a shit show. When it's 3rd and 129198298138129 he is being conservative and not going to try to be aggressive and try to convert. That in turn keeps the Int count low. You're not going to risk putting your QB in a situation where the ball gets picked off. I have no issue with that.
There were a few times it was done this year when the OL was passblocking mediocrely enough to make an attempt on 3rd and 12 or 3rd and 15, and they were situations that really could have called for being more aggressive.
And Mcadoo has done the run run pass three and out more than KG ever did.
I love the redzone improvement and think Mcadoo will be very good going forward but the blind criticism of KG for doing things that Ben has been doing all year annoys me. Just screams people that never really knew what they were watching. (I know you're not one of those anish.
There was a chance, but again the system, accordingly to BM, during the off season, said that the system will be tailored around the personnel. Considering we suck, he wasn't going to put the offense and Eli in those situations.
I actually find that refreshing. It's not like KG during the Seattle game when Eli already had 3 Ints under his belt, and before half time having him throw a hail mary for int number fucking 4. Why? Go into half time, your QB is having a piss poor day, not need for that shit.
So now this year, when I saw Ben M. being conservative in year 1 of this offense. I like that, I respect that. If we have talent and we still do that then I would be the first to be pissed. But our talent sucks.
I didn't mind the draws with KG when our OL was god like. I loved when Snee in his prime folded with O'hara and Snee would level the fuck out of the Mike backer, and Ward, Jacobs, and whoever, would have big games. I actually liked it. It was a great concept. Draw in general is a concept I don't mind. I love the way Dallas runs it with Romo, where he has that movement like he is going to throw, and quickly hands it off. That's actually my favorite.
Also it's not just 3rd down shotgun draws. There was a time when we had 3rd and short, like 1 or 2, and we'd be throwing 25-30 yards downfield trying to convert it. I remember on my game breakdowns I would see that often.
What KG did which was underrated was add new running concepts each year. He added Power, Power G, which we called it when I coached, and then added a mix of zone, ISO & LEAD, and then center, where we pulled O'hara.
It was amazing run design to fit our talent and we owned everyone. Great job by KG for adding new running concepts year after year. That impressed me probably more than anything.
Again, no OC is perfect though. Run, run, pass doesn't bother me. We obviously love balance or some sort of it. Maybe we want to do that to see what their doing for couple series and how they line up against us.
An example when I coached is there, I love being upstairs so I can see tendencies. So we call, run, run pass,... next series, run, run, pass. Now I see trends where the safety is creeping down. So now, I have single high pre snap shell.
I can tell the OC next series or next time, have Eli boot left or right, and let's high low the single safety, which by the way we dd this year. So we high low the single high safety, and maybe run a come back or shorter route just in case.
So fans see that shit, but it sets up something else later in the game. It's like playing Texas holdem. You can fuck with people by making them think you have a tell. And then bet heavy, and try to make them go all in thinking you're bluffing.
You and I differ on maybe a few things philosophically but you understand the reasons he called what he did regardless.
I can't find much fault in those deep 3rd and short calls though. Firstly because you and I both know he wasn't calling 'Go deep on 3rd and 1', and secondly because we both know Eli's aggressiveness plays a role in where that ball ends up going.
And I personally watched our shotgun traps and draws work way more often than not so I never really understood what people were watching when they complained about it. Or they just conveniently forgot how often it worked and only remembered the few times it didn't. (usually the case)
I am not taking it personal or thinking you are. I just don't want to study for any final exams.lol. Damn Anatomy Practical and Physio is ball busting.
Plus it's an interesting topic. I actually like both coordinators. Both are different and I like that. I am glad we didn't Coach Sully. I would not have been happy with that. I wanted a brand new system.
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2014- #7 overall: 62.75%
2013- #30 overall: 47.22%
2012- #13 overall: 54.84%
2011= #9 overall: 54.41%
Here's why I hate red zone efficiency as a stat...if you are a big play gaining team, chances are many of your scores come from outside of the 20 yard line, which don't factor into any of the stats.
It was either the 2011 or 2012 season, the Jets (who also stink) were #2 in the NFL in red zone efficiency.
The Raiders (yes, the Raiders) are #1 in the NFL in red zone offense THIS season. We know they are not any good.
I don't know what to make of red zone numbers. If the Raiders and Jets can top the league in that stat, are we really suggesting they know something the Packers and Patriots (who currently are ranked lower in RZ% this year) don't?
I find that very difficult to believe. Which I why judging the Giants offense based on red zone numbers is a faulty argument. Scoring is scoring no matter where it comes from.
It doesn't matter if your team leads the league in long TDs... you still want to score TDs when you get to the red zone. I agree that the stat can be manipulated by teams that rarely get into the red zone (like Oakland). That why it's important that we use the red zone efficiency stat in conjunction with the average red zone attempts stat.
- The Raiders are dead last in average red zone attempts by a wide margin.
- There are 3 teams that are top 10 in efficiency AND average attempts... Patriots, Saints, and the GIANTS.
For a team with o-line issues, RB injuries, and the general mess that's been the WR position, that's quite an accomplishment.
There are fewer extreme degree of difficulty throws now. Go back and look at 2011...Eli was making ridiculous H-O-R-S-E throws all year. Inch perfect fades to the back of the end zone, slants and hooks to Nicks with DBs draped all over him, Ballard in New England, the Nicks sideline throw in Dallas, Manningham TD in SF, Cruz TD in the Super Bowl, Manningham in the Super Bowl...these are ridiculous throws that often necessitated ridiculous catches in tight quarters.
We see less of that now, with the obvious exception being the Beckham catch.
Eli was, in the truest definition of the word, MVP that season.
Of course seeing a team that scores a lot sticks in your mind. The Giants are not a team with a ton of offensive history. That's not how memorable Giants games were won. Before TC got here, the last star, all-pro level Giants offensive weapon was who? Gifford?
Mark Bavaro?
"BUT HE SHOULD HAVE ADJUSTED TO HAVING BUMS!!!!!" - Some BBIers
It is still amazing folks didn't see the talent for what it was last year.
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Clearly not all his fault. Nicks falling off a cliff contributed mightily. As did having to play the 3rd C, 3rd RG, 2nd LG and 5th & 6th RB's
"BUT HE SHOULD HAVE ADJUSTED TO HAVING BUMS!!!!!" - Some BBIers
It is still amazing folks didn't see the talent for what it was last year.
We saw the talent for what it was. It was shit. But the issue was KG made no efforts to adjust at all until it was too late, Not that it mattered.
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thru the blue prism of being a Giants fan.
Of course seeing a team that scores a lot sticks in your mind. The Giants are not a team with a ton of offensive history. That's not how memorable Giants games were won. Before TC got here, the last star, all-pro level Giants offensive weapon was who? Gifford?
Mark Bavaro?
Okay, absolutely. And that was an all too brief two years.
Point being, there's no Jim Kelly K-Gun, there's no Air Coryell in Giants history. The closest thing to an offensive Golden Age in Giants history is the last 10 years, and in the context of the NFL, that offensive production was 'good', not great. But we look at it as 'great' because that's all any of us know.