JPP's next contract

He has made isolated plays in every game. But, he did not play exceptionally well against either of those LTs you mention. He also didn't have issue with contain in 1 game. It is every game. Part of that, perhaps a large part, is due to Fewell's terrible system. But, he has to shoulder at least part of the blame.

Overall, I think this season proved he still has game left to him. I do think he can still be a very good DE close to his 2011 form. However, I would not be willing to go out of my way to sign him in an offseason with a ton of needs. Let someone else pay him like a top 5 or DE, which I don't think he currently is.

I don't know if many of you realize, but there is a point in EVERY game where he is laying on the ground in pain once a play is over. It's to the point that it's a running joke between my watching group and I as to when it will happen every week.

It's also generally not a rule to sign guys at the end of their rookie contract who are on a DOWNSWING in production from the beginning of their career.

Here are my reasons for making JPP no more than a 4 million per year offer:

1. You don't give 10 million + per year to guys who aren't natural leaders of men. Whether it be by being a vocal rah rah guy like Strahan and Tuck or a quiet guy who leads by example in Eli you better be having the high salary guys be more than just "Good" players.

2. He has played solely "OK" in his contract year. What the heck is he going to do next year once his incentive to perform is gone?

3. That back injury that kept him out for an extended time. Don't discount that. Those don't go away.

4. Maturity issues. I'm not looking to throw 50 million at a guy who last year thought it appropriate to throw another teammate in an ice bath (horsing around at the team facility).

If I'm Reese- I simply say- no negotiation, no bs. 4 years for 18 million otherwise good luck we can watch you bust on the Redskins next year.

In comment 12039640 ThatLimerickGuy said:

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If I'm Reese- I simply say- no negotiation, no bs. 4 years for 18 million otherwise good luck we can watch you bust on the Redskins next year.

If I am JPP and I am offered that I am insulted. You're insane, back up DEs make more than that.

Staley made that clear in his comments. He draws a lot of double teams and is the guy the opposition looks to neutralize.

I like Kiwi but he generated zero pressure and was handled by one blocker for the most part.

With the emergence of the young guys (DM, Wynn and Kennard) and Perry dialing up the pressure, JPP is getting sacks and becoming a force. I think he is also healthy for the first time in the last three years.

He actually could turn out to be a bargain because I think his numbers the last two years were below what we will see in the future. Like Strahan, he will continue to get better. And if you recall, a lot of fans wanted to let Strahan walk

He makes plays vs the run on athleticism? I don't even know what that means but if it means he doesn't handle the best OT'z on runs to his side then its wrong.

JPP is an elite run defender. I don't know about the best but I can't think of one guy better. This is the one part of his game where he's been consistently outstanding and a few QB bootlegs doesn't change it.

I have not watched any of the last 3 games. Vs WAS was the OT Williams out? JPP routinely beats the hell out of this guy on running plays. Drives him back and completely controls him. He's done the same to the OT in Dallas too. His best games have come against Smith and Williams.

It doesn't matter who's in front of him, vs the run he kicks ass and is one of the best front 7 defenders in the NFL vs the run.

I don't know where he ranks at his position right now. After Watt who is there that is clearly better right now? Not many.

JPP had a great all around game against him this year.

JPP closely and not see he is a dominant run defender vs top OL.

For years he has kicked the shit out of Williams in WAS. He's done it to Smith on several occasions including the first game this year.

He gets bashed for sacks against bad LT but Robert Quinn has 7 of his 10 sacks against the same LT and gets praised for it. Go look at the teams Dumerville has accumulated sacks against - they are teams with bad OL

He gets bashed for not containing Griffin and Wilson on the edge, yet there is no DE in the league doing it.

Outside of the QB, teams almost always run the other way - and he still has more tackles than any other DL in the league.

He was un-blockable in 3 games this year where he registered no sacks.

The only guy he consistently has trouble against is Jason Peters. He regularly gets the better of Williams in Wash and usually has the better of it against Smith in Dal

The guy is a top end player and he will get paid like that and it will be from NY. Put him on the other side

he needs more development and is likely not the future so we should not break the bank on him. We would be better off with 4 quality performing DLs than a stunt DE rusher.

This defense could not stop a college football running team.

4-5 DEs that are better than JPP for the last 2-3 weeks now.


Still waiting.

And you're all entitled to it, but here are measureable facts, which you can disagree with if you like, but are still based on formula and therefore have value.

PFF rates JPP as the #1 DE against the run
PFF rates JPP as the #2 overall DE to Cameron Wake

I know some people don't like PFF as the numbers don't seem to always match what the fan sees or thinks they see, but if you're looking for a grading scale and a ranking, there you go.

Also, JPP has played well against elite OTs this year, but does he take over a game? No. Is he an essential part of this defense? Yes. Is he young with room to get better, absolutely.

I'm ok with JPP coming back, even if the Giants have to overpay a little bit. Look at recent draft classes. Two way DEs don't come around all that often. Personally, I think JPP will look a lot more consistent when another DE emerges opposite him.

JPP will finish with this year?

"Hasn't demonstrated any pass rushing skills the last two years"---unless you include this very season that is.

But who is counting this season. It's all about what JPP did in an injury riddled 2013 campaign.

are how Tuck got his last year beating up on the worst lines in the league in garbage games.

In comment 12039845 djm said:

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4-5 DEs that are better than JPP for the last 2-3 weeks now. Still waiting.

I'm a fan of JPP so this is not a knock, but here is the ones I can list.


Mario Williams
JJ Watt
Cameron Wake

I think JPP actually falls right after this group, with this guys closely behind him:

Robert Quinn
Everson Griffen
Jerry Hughes

JPP is Top 5 in my book.

In comment 12039861 ImaGiant86 said:

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are how Tuck got his last year beating up on the worst lines in the league in garbage games.

Tuck moving on wasn't because of production, it was about his age (31) and the fact the Giants new JPP was gonig to be a FA in a year. You don't invest significant dollars in aging skill players, especially with younger and better players coming up behind them, who will soon be FAs.

All DEs get sacks in bunches. Go back and look a Strahan's numbers, he didn't become more consistent in getting the QB to the ground until later in his career. It's also well documented that players like Dwight Freeny got most of their sacks at home. We as fans focus on the actually number of sacks far too often. We should be tracking pressures and hurries to gauge the full impact of a DE.

some DL help, and a LB and safety on his side so he can concentrated on pass rush, which is what he is doing now, he may stay with a cap friendly deal is its loaded with bonuses; otherwise some that needs what he brings, as a final piece to their DL, will pay near his demands.
My take: 65% chance he's gone.

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We as fans focus on the actually number of sacks far too often. We should be tracking pressures and hurries to gauge the full impact of a DE.

That's why I mentioned the QB Hits stat earlier b/c most databases don't track pressures or hurries. Being 12th or 13th in the league when you're a two way end that never comes off the field isn't exactly as impressive as I'd have thought, which lends some validity to those who downplay his pass rushing abilities. That said, I still think the only other two-way ends that could reasonably be considered better are Watt and Wake. I've been pretty darn happy with our guy though.

In comment 12039916 old man said:

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some DL help, and a LB and safety on his side so he can concentrated on pass rush, which is what he is doing now, he may stay with a cap friendly deal is its loaded with bonuses; otherwise some that needs what he brings, as a final piece to their DL, will pay near his demands. My take: 65% chance he's gone.

You know, I really think he stays. 85%

In comment 12039857 ImaGiant86 said:

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Quote: Why on earth should "cap friendly" be even a consideration when we're talking about the absolute best run defending DE

Yep. Dominant run defense is a reason to spend maybe $5MM/season on a player, not $12MM. If the Giants were interested in paying top dollar for great run D, Linval Joseph would still be on the team.

By that last post, I don't mean to suggest that JPP is only worth $5MM/year. Just that, to the extent that he's worth more than that, it has to be because of his playmaking ability as a pass-rusher.

if Giants do that, forget about winning another championship any time soon

That's reality...that's the going rate for 25 year old stud DE players...players that are not often available or come free...there are at least 8-10 teams that could use that type of player if he became available...and unfortunately there is nothing available right now as far as premium DE defenders if the Giants wanted to try to find an alternative...

Based on the players discussed above...if everything were equal...and you were the Giant GM and could choose between the following player...who would you take?

JJ Watt
Robert Quinn
Cameron Wake
Mario Williams

JJ Watt is the only player that I would take...if I were starting a franchise and had the choice of those DE...Cameron Wake was sited as a player better then JPP...but is a smallish one dimensional player that average half as many tackles per game and is a liability...I see JPP on par with Mario Williams..,even though Williams has more DL help in Buffalo and is 5 years older.,.JPP at the same point in his career...has more sacks the Williams and is a better run defender...and Williams after his 6 year signed a $100 million contract...

The Giants have to be realistic...either they sign JPP to a market contract...or if they simply decide they don't want to pay Mario Williams money...Franchise JPP and trade him to the highest bidder...One thing that is not an option...which is sending JPP a below market offer...then watch him go sign a contract with Washington or Dallas...

Could you imagine how Giant fans will feel if JPP is piling on 15-20 sack seasons per year in Dallas or Washington...especially if they let him walk for nothing??

In comment 12040008 geelabee said:

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That's reality...that's the going rate for 25 year old stud DE players...players that are not often available or come free...there are at least 8-10 teams that could use that type of player if he became available...and unfortunately there is nothing available right now as far as premium DE defenders if the Giants wanted to try to find an alternative... Based on the players discussed above...if everything were equal...and you were the Giant GM and could choose between the following player...who would you take? JJ Watt Robert Quinn Cameron Wake Mario Williams JJ Watt is the only player that I would take...if I were starting a franchise and had the choice of those DE...Cameron Wake was sited as a player better then JPP...but is a smallish one dimensional player that average half as many tackles per game and is a liability...I see JPP on par with Mario Williams..,even though Williams has more DL help in Buffalo and is 5 years older.,.JPP at the same point in his career...has more sacks the Williams and is a better run defender...and Williams after his 6 year signed a $100 million contract... The Giants have to be realistic...either they sign JPP to a market contract...or if they simply decide they don't want to pay Mario Williams money...Franchise JPP and trade him to the highest bidder...One thing that is not an option...which is sending JPP a below market offer...then watch him go sign a contract with Washington or Dallas... Could you imagine how Giant fans will feel if JPP is piling on 15-20 sack seasons per year in Dallas or Washington...especially if they let him walk for nothing??

Good post, you make a very convincing argument.

Not a top 5 DE in the NFL, top 10 you could argue but not top 5. He will want to be paid as the best but we won'y give him that. Offer him a fair deal, it he takes it he takes it

In comment 12040063 TommyWiseau said:

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Not a top 5 DE in the NFL, top 10 you could argue but not top 5. He will want to be paid as the best but we won'y give him that. Offer him a fair deal, it he takes it he takes it

If he comes asking JJ Watt money, I hope Reese laughs him out of the room.

watch him play against the run - he is awful. He also got most of his sacks against bad OL ( CHi, Jax, Jets, SD)

He has 29 tackles on the year - JPP has 68

Robert Quinn has most of his sacks against bad OL and has 8 games with 3 or less tackles including 2 with zero's across the board. JPP has had 2 games of less than 2 tackles

All the other DE pile up sacks against the same teams.

to that 2011 season.....not many can....

He has been injured....as mentioned, how many times this year has he left the game holding his shoulder?

He has not developed as a pass rusher.....he relies on a natural quick move.....any tackle that attacks him, stops his momentum....

He is over rated as a run DE.....he does well crashing the line, making the tackle from the side or the rear.....but run right at him? Yes, he can be handled.....

You make a fair offer.....but as I said before, if he goes to the open market, there will be an idiot GM looking at his sack totals, which should increase against the likes of Hill and Sanchez....and it will be an offer the Giants will be wise not to match.....though I even doubt they will even have a chance to match it....

In comment 12040266 Doomster said:

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to that 2011 season.....not many can.... He has been injured....as mentioned, how many times this year has he left the game holding his shoulder? He has not developed as a pass rusher.....he relies on a natural quick move.....any tackle that attacks him, stops his momentum.... He is over rated as a run DE.....he does well crashing the line, making the tackle from the side or the rear.....but run right at him? Yes, he can be handled..... You make a fair offer.....but as I said before, if he goes to the open market, there will be an idiot GM looking at his sack totals, which should increase against the likes of Hill and Sanchez....and it will be an offer the Giants will be wise not to match.....though I even doubt they will even have a chance to match it....

The problem is that most don't know what they are looking at and don't watch enough of other teams to compare. The usual suspects on this thread are bringing the stupid- again.

JPP market value is his market value. You pay him what he's worth, which is considerable, and build from there. Or you go about drafting the same positions year after year and get nowhere.

I could see the logic with Linval, but when you consider that they spent the money to sign two oft-injured players like Beason and Schwartz,it was not a decision that paid dividends.

And Rolle gets 9 million? Kiwi 7 million in cap space? The restructuring of Baas that made him uncuttable (still counts 3 million against the cap next year!)

Giants have to rethink their cap management and that starts with signing JPP.

In the event they decide not to offer JPP a contract...Can you imagine the reaction on this board if Reece decides to do nothing?? then a Jerry Jones swoopes in and then signs JPP and the watch JPP consistently getting 12-15 sacks per year for the next 5-7 years??

If the Giants are not going to offer a contract the Giants can't afford not to get anything...when there are teams that would offer multiple #1 picks for a stud 25 year old DE

Resign JPP at the market contract for premium DE players...or franchise and trade JPP for multiple picks

Quote:

JPP market value is his market value. You pay him what he's worth, which is considerable, and build from there. Or you go about drafting the same positions year after year and get nowhere.

lies my original premise and point. Those who are focusing on sacks/pressures as the only metric are missing a huge part of the picture, and many also seem to think the grass is somehow greener on the other side...it's not. I agree that JPP is "only" good to very good at pressuring the passer and not one of the great pass rushers of the league, but I also believe that there is only one, maybe two other two-way, every-down DE's that have the overall game he does. The man has LED THE LEAGUE in tackles from his position the years he played full seasons w/o injury (current year included) and that is just not something that should be so easily dismissed. Whether he is penetrating, shedding, pursuing, flying, swimming, or teleporting to the ball, he still gets there before his defensive teammates and consistently better than ANY OTHER GUY IN THE LEAGUE when healthy. He deserves a good payday, and the Giants should be willing to pay it to make him the cornerstone of the DLine for the next half decade unless it costs them too much defensive integrity elsewhere.

I've said it before and I feel it worth re-stating. His persistent bull-rush is what allows him to maintain leverage, control of his space, and the ability to make tackles when the opportunity even remotely presents itself. Sure, perhaps he could develop better swim moves,spin moves, outside speed/leverage or other pass rush skills, but the result would be two-fold: a very likely increase in sacks/pressures over the course of the season, and an even more likely decrease in tackles and passes defensed, as well as greater susceptibility to bootlegs, rollouts, or other general QB improvisations when the pocket starts to collapse. Yeah, I'm no economist, but there is DEFINITELY an "opportunity cost" to developing the pass rush moves so many want to see (see Osi Umenyiora).

Ultimately, I think his salary "bump" should coincide with the phase-out of Rolle's weighty paycheck. They won't be exact analogs, but there is certainly an opportunity to "pass the torch" as far as the salary cap consumption is concerned.

if he hits the open market without an extension being worked out beforehand and another franchise offers him something ridiculous/backbreaking/precendent-setting, then I'm not saying the Giants need to do the same to keep him, but an obviously appreciative, incentive laden contract with some solid guaranteed $ for being a top player at his position (when healthy) should be expected.

Either a long term deal is worked out...or he is franchised and traded in the offseason...that's the choice at this point...exposing your 25 year old stud DE to other NFL bidders is absolute lunacy....

who's is 32 soon. Not JPP.

The next ccodinator needs to move JPP to the left side and let Moore with help from Ayers take care of the right side.

If McClain/Beason can hold on for one more year, MLB might be OK. Kennard is going to be terrific on one side. They need to get better than Willimams/Paysinger at OLB. ....

then replace Rolle if he chooses to leave.

play the few couple of years. But he's still a good player and I think he gives good effort. Hopefully a new DC can get even more out of him. We can't move ahead talent-wise if we have to keep filling the same holes with top draft choices every few years, like DE, DT and WR. If JPP walks, it's going to cost us big bucks to find a FA as good as him, if any are available. And no one in the draft looks as good as him. I'm afraid we just have to swallow a $10-12M hit to try to keep him.

He will be signed. Imagine what this dline would look like without him?

I just can't figure out why he called himself FTLFan

In comment 12040008 geelabee said:

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Could you imagine how Giant fans will feel if JPP is piling on 15-20 sack seasons per year in Dallas or Washington...especially if they let him walk for nothing??

Yeah, I can easily imagine it: The morons who were all for letting JPP go will nevertheless bash Reese non-stop. Those who think he's worth only $4 million per year couldn't spell CLUE if they were spotted the C, L, U & E.

What would be the downside to franchising him? We would buy an extra year to see if he can stay healthy and perform at this level or even a slightly higher level if he gets a little more help on the DL.(it seems unlikely he will return to the level he displayed that one year). Also as others have mentioned trade would then be a possibility. and just out of curiosity when did we last franchise someone? And what would JPP's salary likely be if we did?

6yrs/$80 mill,say $50mill guaranteed?

and then be adequate for games at a time.

7 mill per and I'm happy.

Lamar Houston, Michael Bennett, Carlos Dunlap, Jared Allen, Cameron Wake, Everson Griffen, Michael Johnson, Junior Galette are all making over that number and you are not taking any of them over JPP

He is going to get 10M per season. I could see 4-45 20M guaranteed or 5-50 with half guaranteed

to Dantae Hightower and his 5 sacks... to find a player with more tackles then JPP on the sack league leader list....
his 2 way play (for some reason because he doesnt have gaudy sack numbers and sucked against Peters) is so underrated on here. If we let he and linval go in back to back years.... then wtf is the point in discussing the draft if we dont keep any of the good players we find.

please teach him how to play the Read-Option before we hand over $7-10 million per year?

is if the Giants are willing to pay an average of $12M per for JPP. I'm almost 100% certain he will have those sort of offers.

For those who say,"it's too much".

State who and for how much will you try to replace him with right here:

Thanks and good luck playing GM.

Need to acknowledge the lack of production in that area from his fellow Def fro nt 7 players. Also, Fewell's lack of talent in scheming to pressure QBs. If JPP is given an environment with a lot of pass pressure, his stats would go up.

Also, you know how we complain about fat happy nfl defensive linemen who routinely take plays off. JPP busts his butt every play. That's worth A LOT.

In comment 12041222 Randy in CT said:

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and then be adequate for games at a time. 7 mill per and I'm happy.

Love this comment. Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Give JPP a properly structured $12m per year contract the week after the season ends and move on to the next issue. Reese has plenty of things to aside from trying to lowball one of his best players.

In comment 12044254 cosmicj said:

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Love this comment. Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Give JPP a properly structured $12m per year contract the week after the season ends and move on to the next issue. Reese has plenty of things to aside from trying to lowball one of his best players.

cos: I was thinking $8M per a few months ago. I've changed my bottom line to $12M per also for several reasons.