Can't even begin to count the number of posts/posters that have said they only want JPP back if it can be achieved at a cap friendly price. Why on earth should "cap friendly" be even a consideration when we're talking about the absolute best run defending DE in the game, and an undeniable top 5 player at his position (probably #2 just after Watt)? The man has earned his money, deserves his money, and the only question should be whether the Giants want to or are able to allocate the resources. There will be $$ available this year, and guys like JPP don't grown on trees. He's still on the front side of his career, is a "homegrown" talent, and is a fan favorite on the defensive side. Unless his price would leave us completely threadbare on the rest of the roster, I personally hope management is already discussing long term contract structure with his agent.
Top 5 DE in the league???
He is a good run defender who makes plays based on his athleticism. However, he continues to get beaten at least a couple of times a game by a QB or RB on the edge because he can't read a fucking fake or misdirection. As for top 5, please. He has done next to nothing for about 2 seasons in the pass rush department until he played against a couple of backup LT recently. He has not developed his game while with the Giants.
Are the Giants willing? Who knows, this franchise is impossible to figure out right now.
Retro. Why so? He's got a head start and maybe 30 mil in cap space. I see done and done.
This thread appears to be titled incorrectly. Not sure who you're referring to here, but it's not JPP.
Overall, I think this season proved he still has game left to him. I do think he can still be a very good DE close to his 2011 form. However, I would not be willing to go out of my way to sign him in an offseason with a ton of needs. Let someone else pay him like a top 5 or DE, which I don't think he currently is.
It's also generally not a rule to sign guys at the end of their rookie contract who are on a DOWNSWING in production from the beginning of their career.
Here are my reasons for making JPP no more than a 4 million per year offer:
1. You don't give 10 million + per year to guys who aren't natural leaders of men. Whether it be by being a vocal rah rah guy like Strahan and Tuck or a quiet guy who leads by example in Eli you better be having the high salary guys be more than just "Good" players.
2. He has played solely "OK" in his contract year. What the heck is he going to do next year once his incentive to perform is gone?
3. That back injury that kept him out for an extended time. Don't discount that. Those don't go away.
4. Maturity issues. I'm not looking to throw 50 million at a guy who last year thought it appropriate to throw another teammate in an ice bath (horsing around at the team facility).
If I'm Reese- I simply say- no negotiation, no bs. 4 years for 18 million otherwise good luck we can watch you bust on the Redskins next year.
If I am JPP and I am offered that I am insulted. You're insane, back up DEs make more than that.
I like Kiwi but he generated zero pressure and was handled by one blocker for the most part.
With the emergence of the young guys (DM, Wynn and Kennard) and Perry dialing up the pressure, JPP is getting sacks and becoming a force. I think he is also healthy for the first time in the last three years.
He actually could turn out to be a bargain because I think his numbers the last two years were below what we will see in the future. Like Strahan, he will continue to get better. And if you recall, a lot of fans wanted to let Strahan walk
JPP is an elite run defender. I don't know about the best but I can't think of one guy better. This is the one part of his game where he's been consistently outstanding and a few QB bootlegs doesn't change it.
I have not watched any of the last 3 games. Vs WAS was the OT Williams out? JPP routinely beats the hell out of this guy on running plays. Drives him back and completely controls him. He's done the same to the OT in Dallas too. His best games have come against Smith and Williams.
It doesn't matter who's in front of him, vs the run he kicks ass and is one of the best front 7 defenders in the NFL vs the run.
I don't know where he ranks at his position right now. After Watt who is there that is clearly better right now? Not many.
For years he has kicked the shit out of Williams in WAS. He's done it to Smith on several occasions including the first game this year.
He gets bashed for not containing Griffin and Wilson on the edge, yet there is no DE in the league doing it.
Outside of the QB, teams almost always run the other way - and he still has more tackles than any other DL in the league.
He was un-blockable in 3 games this year where he registered no sacks.
The only guy he consistently has trouble against is Jason Peters. He regularly gets the better of Williams in Wash and usually has the better of it against Smith in Dal
The guy is a top end player and he will get paid like that and it will be from NY. Put him on the other side
This defense could not stop a college football running team.
Still waiting.
PFF rates JPP as the #1 DE against the run
PFF rates JPP as the #2 overall DE to Cameron Wake
I know some people don't like PFF as the numbers don't seem to always match what the fan sees or thinks they see, but if you're looking for a grading scale and a ranking, there you go.
Also, JPP has played well against elite OTs this year, but does he take over a game? No. Is he an essential part of this defense? Yes. Is he young with room to get better, absolutely.
I'm ok with JPP coming back, even if the Giants have to overpay a little bit. Look at recent draft classes. Two way DEs don't come around all that often. Personally, I think JPP will look a lot more consistent when another DE emerges opposite him.
"Hasn't demonstrated any pass rushing skills the last two years"---unless you include this very season that is.
But who is counting this season. It's all about what JPP did in an injury riddled 2013 campaign.
Still waiting.
I'm a fan of JPP so this is not a knock, but here is the ones I can list.
Mario Williams
JJ Watt
Cameron Wake
I think JPP actually falls right after this group, with this guys closely behind him:
Robert Quinn
Everson Griffen
Jerry Hughes
JPP is Top 5 in my book.
Tuck moving on wasn't because of production, it was about his age (31) and the fact the Giants new JPP was gonig to be a FA in a year. You don't invest significant dollars in aging skill players, especially with younger and better players coming up behind them, who will soon be FAs.
All DEs get sacks in bunches. Go back and look a Strahan's numbers, he didn't become more consistent in getting the QB to the ground until later in his career. It's also well documented that players like Dwight Freeny got most of their sacks at home. We as fans focus on the actually number of sacks far too often. We should be tracking pressures and hurries to gauge the full impact of a DE.
My take: 65% chance he's gone.
That's why I mentioned the QB Hits stat earlier b/c most databases don't track pressures or hurries. Being 12th or 13th in the league when you're a two way end that never comes off the field isn't exactly as impressive as I'd have thought, which lends some validity to those who downplay his pass rushing abilities. That said, I still think the only other two-way ends that could reasonably be considered better are Watt and Wake. I've been pretty darn happy with our guy though.
My take: 65% chance he's gone.
You know, I really think he stays. 85%
Quote:
Why on earth should "cap friendly" be even a consideration when we're talking about the absolute best run defending DE
Yep. Dominant run defense is a reason to spend maybe $5MM/season on a player, not $12MM. If the Giants were interested in paying top dollar for great run D, Linval Joseph would still be on the team.
Based on the players discussed above...if everything were equal...and you were the Giant GM and could choose between the following player...who would you take?
JJ Watt
Robert Quinn
Cameron Wake
Mario Williams
JJ Watt is the only player that I would take...if I were starting a franchise and had the choice of those DE...Cameron Wake was sited as a player better then JPP...but is a smallish one dimensional player that average half as many tackles per game and is a liability...I see JPP on par with Mario Williams..,even though Williams has more DL help in Buffalo and is 5 years older.,.JPP at the same point in his career...has more sacks the Williams and is a better run defender...and Williams after his 6 year signed a $100 million contract...
The Giants have to be realistic...either they sign JPP to a market contract...or if they simply decide they don't want to pay Mario Williams money...Franchise JPP and trade him to the highest bidder...One thing that is not an option...which is sending JPP a below market offer...then watch him go sign a contract with Washington or Dallas...
Could you imagine how Giant fans will feel if JPP is piling on 15-20 sack seasons per year in Dallas or Washington...especially if they let him walk for nothing??
Based on the players discussed above...if everything were equal...and you were the Giant GM and could choose between the following player...who would you take?
JJ Watt
Robert Quinn
Cameron Wake
Mario Williams
JJ Watt is the only player that I would take...if I were starting a franchise and had the choice of those DE...Cameron Wake was sited as a player better then JPP...but is a smallish one dimensional player that average half as many tackles per game and is a liability...I see JPP on par with Mario Williams..,even though Williams has more DL help in Buffalo and is 5 years older.,.JPP at the same point in his career...has more sacks the Williams and is a better run defender...and Williams after his 6 year signed a $100 million contract...
The Giants have to be realistic...either they sign JPP to a market contract...or if they simply decide they don't want to pay Mario Williams money...Franchise JPP and trade him to the highest bidder...One thing that is not an option...which is sending JPP a below market offer...then watch him go sign a contract with Washington or Dallas...
Could you imagine how Giant fans will feel if JPP is piling on 15-20 sack seasons per year in Dallas or Washington...especially if they let him walk for nothing??
Good post, you make a very convincing argument.
If he comes asking JJ Watt money, I hope Reese laughs him out of the room.
He has 29 tackles on the year - JPP has 68
Robert Quinn has most of his sacks against bad OL and has 8 games with 3 or less tackles including 2 with zero's across the board. JPP has had 2 games of less than 2 tackles
All the other DE pile up sacks against the same teams.
He has been injured....as mentioned, how many times this year has he left the game holding his shoulder?
He has not developed as a pass rusher.....he relies on a natural quick move.....any tackle that attacks him, stops his momentum....
He is over rated as a run DE.....he does well crashing the line, making the tackle from the side or the rear.....but run right at him? Yes, he can be handled.....
You make a fair offer.....but as I said before, if he goes to the open market, there will be an idiot GM looking at his sack totals, which should increase against the likes of Hill and Sanchez....and it will be an offer the Giants will be wise not to match.....though I even doubt they will even have a chance to match it....
He has been injured....as mentioned, how many times this year has he left the game holding his shoulder?
He has not developed as a pass rusher.....he relies on a natural quick move.....any tackle that attacks him, stops his momentum....
He is over rated as a run DE.....he does well crashing the line, making the tackle from the side or the rear.....but run right at him? Yes, he can be handled.....
You make a fair offer.....but as I said before, if he goes to the open market, there will be an idiot GM looking at his sack totals, which should increase against the likes of Hill and Sanchez....and it will be an offer the Giants will be wise not to match.....though I even doubt they will even have a chance to match it....
JPP market value is his market value. You pay him what he's worth, which is considerable, and build from there. Or you go about drafting the same positions year after year and get nowhere.
And Rolle gets 9 million? Kiwi 7 million in cap space? The restructuring of Baas that made him uncuttable (still counts 3 million against the cap next year!)
Giants have to rethink their cap management and that starts with signing JPP.
If the Giants are not going to offer a contract the Giants can't afford not to get anything...when there are teams that would offer multiple #1 picks for a stud 25 year old DE
JPP market value is his market value. You pay him what he's worth, which is considerable, and build from there. Or you go about drafting the same positions year after year and get nowhere.
lies my original premise and point. Those who are focusing on sacks/pressures as the only metric are missing a huge part of the picture, and many also seem to think the grass is somehow greener on the other side...it's not. I agree that JPP is "only" good to very good at pressuring the passer and not one of the great pass rushers of the league, but I also believe that there is only one, maybe two other two-way, every-down DE's that have the overall game he does. The man has LED THE LEAGUE in tackles from his position the years he played full seasons w/o injury (current year included) and that is just not something that should be so easily dismissed. Whether he is penetrating, shedding, pursuing, flying, swimming, or teleporting to the ball, he still gets there before his defensive teammates and consistently better than ANY OTHER GUY IN THE LEAGUE when healthy. He deserves a good payday, and the Giants should be willing to pay it to make him the cornerstone of the DLine for the next half decade unless it costs them too much defensive integrity elsewhere.
I've said it before and I feel it worth re-stating. His persistent bull-rush is what allows him to maintain leverage, control of his space, and the ability to make tackles when the opportunity even remotely presents itself. Sure, perhaps he could develop better swim moves,spin moves, outside speed/leverage or other pass rush skills, but the result would be two-fold: a very likely increase in sacks/pressures over the course of the season, and an even more likely decrease in tackles and passes defensed, as well as greater susceptibility to bootlegs, rollouts, or other general QB improvisations when the pocket starts to collapse. Yeah, I'm no economist, but there is DEFINITELY an "opportunity cost" to developing the pass rush moves so many want to see (see Osi Umenyiora).
Ultimately, I think his salary "bump" should coincide with the phase-out of Rolle's weighty paycheck. They won't be exact analogs, but there is certainly an opportunity to "pass the torch" as far as the salary cap consumption is concerned.
The next ccodinator needs to move JPP to the left side and let Moore with help from Ayers take care of the right side.
If McClain/Beason can hold on for one more year, MLB might be OK. Kennard is going to be terrific on one side. They need to get better than Willimams/Paysinger at OLB. ....
then replace Rolle if he chooses to leave.