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Bring back Spags as the new DC Yes or No

NYBEN : 12/17/2014 3:54 pm
Looks like we had 100% on the fire Perry Fewell thread. So now that he is gone let's find his replacement. Spags is the easy choice but is he the right choice? I vote YES!!
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this team requires a RESET  
mdc1 : 12/17/2014 4:35 pm : link
from the HC down. I like to call it the culture of "unaccountability" in that you can f up and still keep your job, so why strive for excellence? The only guys that are released are the chosen scapegoats.

.  
arcarsenal : 12/17/2014 4:35 pm : link
You guys are also forgetting about Gibril. He played well for us.
Lou you are shortchanging a bunch of players to fit your narrative  
David in LA : 12/17/2014 4:35 pm : link
McQuarters was apparently the worst cover corner in the league, when he's merely mediocre. Ross was just ok. Pierce was a bum too.
RE: .  
mdc1 : 12/17/2014 4:37 pm : link
In comment 12040165 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
You're short changing Pierce pretty bad. He was a very good player that year and he was sure as hell better than anything we've had in the middle since then. Unless you count like.. 6 games of Jon Beason in 2013.

And no, Pope didn't start. Ross and Webster did.


The interesting thing about Pierce is that we were lucky to get him from the skins, I suspect that without him we do not win that first SB as we would have started some underachiever at his position. We got free talent evaluation from somebody else (Skins) at the LB position.
AP's asset  
AnishPatel : 12/17/2014 4:38 pm : link
was his football IQ. It's not like he was athletic or some freak player. His football iQ was great and ability to get people lined up to make plays. There were times where he and the QB would go back and forth and change plays. It was great to watch.

Towards the end of his tenure BL remembers, when our fan base called him fat and slow. They made the same comments about JPP and his stomach, and ripped on AP.

But in general, AP was great for us. Not because he was an insane athletic, but because he was the general of the defense. Getting everyone lined up.
RE: Your LBs  
BlueLou : 12/17/2014 4:39 pm : link
In comment 12040161 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
were AP, Torbor and Mitchell. You had Michael Johnson and James Butler playing. Ross was a good blitzer out of the slot.

We had a good DL, but we maximized our potential on defense. That was fun to see. Ideally, I would love Rex Ryan as our DC when he gets fired, however, that's not happening.

Bingo Anish, thanks.

I would love to see his defense implemented. I actually might start to have faith in our defense again.
RE: .  
AnishPatel : 12/17/2014 4:40 pm : link
In comment 12040172 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
You guys are also forgetting about Gibril. He played well for us.


He did and blitzed too. I still remember him smacking the shit out of Brady in the super bowl.

At one point we were sending everyone from different spots. This would go on throughout the game..

DL pressure
Ross from the slot
LB A gap
and Gibril the Thrill Wilson creeping in and blitzing.

It was a fun defense to watch. He basically put Webster on the map. Webster was an average CB, who Tim Lewis would berate. Once Lewis left, and the scheme changed Webster was a damn good CB for us.

.  
arcarsenal : 12/17/2014 4:40 pm : link
Those narratives about Pierce started in 2008 until he called it a career because of that disc injury in 2009. People really weren't saying he was fat and slow in 2007 and they sure weren't saying it when he was a pro bowl MIKE in 2006 and registered over 100 tackles.

He wasn't the most athletic guy but let's not act like he was Jonathan Goff with a headset and higher football IQ.
RE: .  
AnishPatel : 12/17/2014 4:43 pm : link
In comment 12040181 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Those narratives about Pierce started in 2008 until he called it a career because of that disc injury in 2009. People really weren't saying he was fat and slow in 2007 and they sure weren't saying it when he was a pro bowl MIKE in 2006 and registered over 100 tackles.

He wasn't the most athletic guy but let's not act like he was Jonathan Goff with a headset and higher football IQ.


True, but what people and not all remember was the tail end of the career. Once he came here our defense was good. That's the last time I actually had faith in our defense.

Maybe a new DC for us will change that. In fact, he is the only DC i liked. I wasn't a fan of Lewis and Sheridan, and Fewell.
I guess I wouldn't mind Spagnuolo  
mikeinbloomfield : 12/17/2014 4:46 pm : link
but he is currently "senior defensive assistant" at Baltimore. He hasn't exactly covered himself with glory since he left. As defensive coordinator in New Orleans, he was awful.

I'd love an up-and-comer. Someone from the successful defenses in Arizona, St. Louis or Detroit for example. Remember, Steve was a nobody on the Philly staff when was tapped to run the Giants D.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 12/17/2014 4:54 pm : link
In comment 12040183 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 12040181 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Those narratives about Pierce started in 2008 until he called it a career because of that disc injury in 2009. People really weren't saying he was fat and slow in 2007 and they sure weren't saying it when he was a pro bowl MIKE in 2006 and registered over 100 tackles.

He wasn't the most athletic guy but let's not act like he was Jonathan Goff with a headset and higher football IQ.



True, but what people and not all remember was the tail end of the career. Once he came here our defense was good. That's the last time I actually had faith in our defense.

Maybe a new DC for us will change that. In fact, he is the only DC i liked. I wasn't a fan of Lewis and Sheridan, and Fewell.


I'm totally on board with a new DC at this point, I just don't know if Spags is the right guy. I don't want to move backwards here. And his resume since leaving here gives me definite pause even though I loved what he did when he was here.

I'd prefer to go in a different direction.

I see a lot of people calling for 3-4 guys, though. I don't know if I want to put the defense a year behind the offense and have to burn a "transitional" year or two with Eli this far along.
Love to steal fazio  
Zebra3 : 12/17/2014 4:54 pm : link
In SF. I would go after a college DC with the trend in the NFL for quick pace.
David, I am, because others here are playing down Spags' role  
BlueLou : 12/17/2014 5:00 pm : link
in making that D personnel click. It was a very good DL (no one has even mentioned how well Cofield and Robbins played that year), but Osi was always a liability vs the run to some extent, and AP was already slowing by 2007. Just look at his tackles total - from 107 and a pro bowl appearance in 2006 he went to 77 tackles in 2007 and 72 in 2008. Passes defensed? 9 in 2006, 8 in 2007, and 2 in 2008. After the SB win, AP lost interest in the weight room and conditioning to some extent and it showed...

Arcs I think Ross "started" with a bum shoulder, and IIRC re-injured it on a tackle in the 1st quarter. I'd have to check the snap counts to be sure, but IIRC Pope took more snaps than Ross as 1st string CB that game, and he was a major liability that SS and his pressure schemes somehow covered up. Ross came back in after the shoulder re-injury, but was a shadow of himself, physically. He was game though, very gutsy performance. And McQ was a really bad cover DB, not just "mediocre" or average. I knew how bad he was from when he played for the 9ers, he was really bad.

Torbor and Mitchell? The Giants weren't the least interested to hold onto either of them, so that says something about their level of play overall. Mitchell played well in the PO run, but still at best a journeyman player.

In short, I'm saying the same as Anish - Spags got the most out of that D talent any coach could have, and that's the best any coach can do... Do any of us feel that way about PF?
re  
diable : 12/17/2014 5:07 pm : link
AP was a very good mlb.

I thought Goff was an going to be next one. Unfortunately the knee injury ruined a promising career.

.  
arcarsenal : 12/17/2014 5:07 pm : link
Spags did well with that defense, no one argues otherwise. I am just tired of hearing it talked about as if he took 11 scrubs and made them walk on water.

The DB's were seldom a liability because we were able to give them help and when we blitzed, we were good at getting home. It protected them and it wasn't often that they were left on islands to hold coverages long.

The DL was tremendous, particularly in the Super Bowl. There's a reason so many of the famous pictures from that game are Tom Brady on his ass and Strahan, Tuck and Osi all standing around him like vultures.

Discredit whoever you want however you want. The front 7 was very, very good through that Super Bowl run and the main reason we won the damn thing.
NO  
Arkbach : 12/17/2014 5:13 pm : link
Let's not go backwards. He's done nothing since. Word is he was as ass with his players in STL and I don't see anything exceptional in Baltimore.
RE: can we go back to Strahan and Osi and Tuck, too?  
MOOPS : 12/17/2014 5:14 pm : link
In comment 12040169 BeerFridge said:
Quote:
.


Spags didn't have Strahan and Osi in year 2. Strahan retired and Osi was IR.
arcs I guess it's perspective. Having been a fan all through the year  
BlueLou : 12/17/2014 5:19 pm : link
from the "crunch bunch" to the LT-Carson-Banks-Reasons/Pepper Johnson years, with Marshall, Martin, Howard, Burt Dorsey, etc as a "front 7", the Stray-Pierce axis group didn't look "dominant", merely good.

And I argued with plenty of folks here at the time who were crowing about our DL and front 7. Again, my main point is Spags made them look better than they were on a pure talent basis, and the pass rush pressure that team generated was as much or more a function of blitz and pressure packages as it was raging talent from the front 4. We can argue until the cows come home, but without data of the actual D play calls - how many guys were coming when they generated severe pressure - neither of us can "prove" our point. What frustrates me most about PF is what a poor % of pressure we generate even when bringing the blitz. Frustrates the heck out of me.
Its not like Coughlin has an outstanding track record  
Reb8thVA : 12/17/2014 5:32 pm : link
Picking Defensive Coordinators. It might be misguided to bring him back with expectation that he can get the same results with the current personnel. On the other hand bringing him back might a better choice than rolling the dice on another Coughlin selection.
Unequivocal yes to a Spags return  
Torrag : 12/17/2014 5:42 pm : link
the man knew how to confuse QB's even when they expected pressure.That is a key element to a consistent defense in today's passing friendly NFL. Perry is sorely lacking in this regard.
RE: To the OP  
NYBEN : 12/17/2014 6:01 pm : link
In comment 12040152 gmen1234 said:
Quote:
You do realize bbi has absolutely no impact on decisions made right? You wrote now that he is gone like bbi got rid of him


My bad ...I didn't know that ...thanks
If your view of Pierce's career and value is strictly  
Bino5 : 12/17/2014 6:03 pm : link
his football IQ and 1 play then you either were not watching, had no idea what you were watching, or maybe forgot what you were watching.
FYI  
NYBEN : 12/17/2014 6:05 pm : link
I know Pope wasn't the starter ..my point is that in the most important game of the year up to that point we won with a guy that was just signed from the practice squad a few days earlier.By the end of the Dallas playoff game it was Webster and Pope as the starting corners and the Cowboys could only muster 3 2nd half points
Spags back?  
Johnny5 : 12/17/2014 6:06 pm : link
Umm, yeah, so pretty much where do I sign?
He's not going to make a lateral move..  
arcarsenal : 12/17/2014 6:31 pm : link
But I have been very impressed with Bowles' defense this year. I just really like the way he blitzes. He's a very creative guy. I've watched a lot of their defense and it's fun to watch all the different angles he generates pressures from.
I'm for it ...  
Manny in CA : 12/17/2014 6:48 pm : link
it would be good for us and him.

If he came back and resumed his magic, everybody knows Tom has one foot out the door. Coughlin likes him a lott, I think he would recommend him to take over for him, despite his Rams experience.

Recall who laid an egg with the Browns - Billichick. Look at him now.
Spags has obviously been romanticized by Giant fans  
oipolloi : 12/17/2014 7:16 pm : link
and his defenses in both St. Louis and NO leave a lot to be desired.

But he still did a good job in NY, especially when you consider how the defense completely melted down under his successor, Bill Sheridan.

So, I would have to say:

YES

RE: I'd be fine with Spags returning.  
spike : 12/17/2014 7:19 pm : link
In comment 12040137 Red Dog said:
Quote:
.


Kawika Mitchell was great for us. Then he went to Buffalo and disappeared.
It depends.  
Rick5 : 12/17/2014 7:24 pm : link
I don't claim to have even 1% of the knowledge of the pros, so if they interviewed him and thought he would be a good fit in '15, it would be OK with me.
If Spags was a product  
bradshaw44 : 12/17/2014 7:29 pm : link
Of Stray, Osi and Tuck, then why didn't Tim Lewis do well???
And why no mention of Kevin Dockery?  
bradshaw44 : 12/17/2014 7:33 pm : link
Spags got the most out of the DL and frankly, a shitty secondary filled with journeyman and garbage.
I would take Lucille Ball as DC  
gmen4ever : 12/17/2014 7:37 pm : link
Over Perry Fewell....YES!
Spags got screwed in NO  
Zebra3 : 12/17/2014 7:39 pm : link
Payton on suspension, team divided. Most of the defense turned him off.
Loyal to the former DC. Hard to win in that situation. Time to come home and rebuild his reputation in a solid franchise.
RE: What, the blow up of the screen pass?  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 12/17/2014 7:52 pm : link
In comment 12040164 BlueLou said:
Quote:
1 great play makes a guy a stud at his position?

How many passes were caught with AP trailing in coverage over the middle, like 10 million?


Lou the vinager is getting in the way of your brain here. AP was the best LB and smartest we have had for years. He did get old quail towards the end, but he was the brains of our defense. I wish we had someone like him on the team now.
And 100% yes  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 12/17/2014 7:53 pm : link
I want Spags back.
No  
Steve in South Jersey : 12/17/2014 8:01 pm : link
Look forward not back.
Pierce  
kepler20 : 12/17/2014 8:09 pm : link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUnnW3DkaCk
RE: RE: RE: .  
AnishPatel : 12/17/2014 8:27 pm : link
In comment 12040195 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 12040183 AnishPatel said:


Quote:


In comment 12040181 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Those narratives about Pierce started in 2008 until he called it a career because of that disc injury in 2009. People really weren't saying he was fat and slow in 2007 and they sure weren't saying it when he was a pro bowl MIKE in 2006 and registered over 100 tackles.

He wasn't the most athletic guy but let's not act like he was Jonathan Goff with a headset and higher football IQ.



True, but what people and not all remember was the tail end of the career. Once he came here our defense was good. That's the last time I actually had faith in our defense.

Maybe a new DC for us will change that. In fact, he is the only DC i liked. I wasn't a fan of Lewis and Sheridan, and Fewell.



I'm totally on board with a new DC at this point, I just don't know if Spags is the right guy. I don't want to move backwards here. And his resume since leaving here gives me definite pause even though I loved what he did when he was here.

I'd prefer to go in a different direction.

I see a lot of people calling for 3-4 guys, though. I don't know if I want to put the defense a year behind the offense and have to burn a "transitional" year or two with Eli this far along.


I thought about that. Perhaps an aggressive DC can do what Spags did with the players from Tim Lewis's time here. Maybe we see a turnaround. If we see potential, we hire an aggressive 43 DC and go from there.

If we feel our defense is broken, then we would still suck at a 43 defense. So then this is the time to make that 34 change and go from there.

Either way I don't care. I have zero faith in the defense anyways. I like Spags because he is the only DC I had faith in. When it comes down to it I liked 2 of the coordinator hires by TC. KG, promotion, to OC, and Spags.

I hated Hufangel, Lewis, Sheridan and Fewell. Ben M. I liked that hire, so that's good, but now still patiently evaluating him.

Get me a DC who is aggressive. I don't care what system even. Get me someone who will attack the QB and not just rely on the front freaking 4.
Hell No  
Matt M. : 12/17/2014 8:50 pm : link
I think he is very overrated as a DC. He was good, but not a genius.
RE: Hell No  
Blue Blood : 12/17/2014 9:04 pm : link
In comment 12040530 Matt M. said:
Quote:
I think he is very overrated as a DC. He was good, but not a genius.


and GOOD is light years better than Fewell.
Not too many geniuses around ....  
Manny in CA : 12/17/2014 9:12 pm : link
I don't dislike Fewell, In fact I think he would be an excellent head coach, but I think that at this point he's this year's "Kevin Gilbride", his philosophy has run it's course. hange is necessary.

I think wht did it for me was the game against Arizona. we basically had a full defensive team available and we played SCARED against them. I still don't get why.
Change, I mean  
Manny in CA : 12/17/2014 9:14 pm : link
.
Spags  
Percy : 12/17/2014 10:20 pm : link
Great with the G-men years ago, but nothing much from him since -- anywhere. We need real youth in approach and understanding of the NFL game as it has evolved. Spags does not offer that. Unless he's the only alternative to Fewell, in which case I'll welcome him back.
RE: Spags  
NYBEN : 12/17/2014 10:24 pm : link
In comment 12040627 Percy said:
Quote:
Great with the G-men years ago, but nothing much from him since -- anywhere. We need real youth in approach and understanding of the NFL game as it has evolved. Spags does not offer that. Unless he's the only alternative to Fewell, in which case I'll welcome him back.


You do know that he is currently a defensive assistant for the Ravens right? How old do you think he is ? How long ago do you think he coached here? You sound like we are talking about Buddy Ryan
He gets  
TMS : 12/17/2014 10:52 pm : link
my vote. Great move.
RE: RE: Spags  
Percy : 12/18/2014 8:35 pm : link
In comment 12040629 NYBEN said:
Quote:
In comment 12040627 Percy said:


Quote:


Great with the G-men years ago, but nothing much from him since -- anywhere. We need real youth in approach and understanding of the NFL game as it has evolved. Spags does not offer that. Unless he's the only alternative to Fewell, in which case I'll welcome him back.



You do know that he is currently a defensive assistant for the Ravens right? How old do you think he is ? How long ago do you think he coached here? You sound like we are talking about Buddy Ryan


Eagles: 1999-2006. Worked under DC Johnson (first in sacks, second in third down efficiency, fourth in TDs allowed). Giants: DC 2007-Jan. 2009. Success with good D players (led in sacks 2007 and was the architect of aggressive D against Patriots in 2008 Superbowl win.) Rams: HC 2009-2012. No progress for the Rams. Saints: DC 2012-Jan. 2013. Saints D fell apart in 2012 (last against run and overall after bounty scandal 2010-2011). Ravens: 2013-2014 D assistant and later secondary coach (mixed reviews, injuries in 2014).

Definitely not Buddy Ryan from the '70s-'90s. Not new to the game either.
RE: No  
dcable : 12/19/2014 11:11 am : link
In comment 12040468 Steve in South Jersey said:
Quote:
Look forward not back.


Does that apply to TC too?
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
Disgruntled NYGfan : 12/19/2014 11:50 am : link
In comment 12040498 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 12040195 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 12040183 AnishPatel said:


Quote:


In comment 12040181 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Those narratives about Pierce started in 2008 until he called it a career because of that disc injury in 2009. People really weren't saying he was fat and slow in 2007 and they sure weren't saying it when he was a pro bowl MIKE in 2006 and registered over 100 tackles.

He wasn't the most athletic guy but let's not act like he was Jonathan Goff with a headset and higher football IQ.



True, but what people and not all remember was the tail end of the career. Once he came here our defense was good. That's the last time I actually had faith in our defense.

Maybe a new DC for us will change that. In fact, he is the only DC i liked. I wasn't a fan of Lewis and Sheridan, and Fewell.



I'm totally on board with a new DC at this point, I just don't know if Spags is the right guy. I don't want to move backwards here. And his resume since leaving here gives me definite pause even though I loved what he did when he was here.

I'd prefer to go in a different direction.

I see a lot of people calling for 3-4 guys, though. I don't know if I want to put the defense a year behind the offense and have to burn a "transitional" year or two with Eli this far along.



I thought about that. Perhaps an aggressive DC can do what Spags did with the players from Tim Lewis's time here. Maybe we see a turnaround. If we see potential, we hire an aggressive 43 DC and go from there.

If we feel our defense is broken, then we would still suck at a 43 defense. So then this is the time to make that 34 change and go from there.

Either way I don't care. I have zero faith in the defense anyways. I like Spags because he is the only DC I had faith in. When it comes down to it I liked 2 of the coordinator hires by TC. KG, promotion, to OC, and Spags.

I hated Hufangel, Lewis, Sheridan and Fewell. Ben M. I liked that hire, so that's good, but now still patiently evaluating him.

Get me a DC who is aggressive. I don't care what system even. Get me someone who will attack the QB and not just rely on the front freaking 4.


This.

Playing an aggressive defense helps tilt the balance away from the offense. When a defense plays this read and react BS, it allows the offense to dictate the initiative. Attacking the QB and forcing the offense to scheme to defend the QB gives the initiative -- and the advantage -- back to the defense.

This is doubly true with the new illegal contact rules where, unless it is the Seahawks, defenders are flagged for even grazing a receiver.
RE: Not too many geniuses around ....  
Disgruntled NYGfan : 12/19/2014 12:02 pm : link
In comment 12040554 Manny in CA said:
Quote:
I don't dislike Fewell, In fact I think he would be an excellent head coach, but I think that at this point he's this year's "Kevin Gilbride", his philosophy has run it's course. hange is necessary.

I think wht did it for me was the game against Arizona. we basically had a full defensive team available and we played SCARED against them. I still don't get why.


When did Fewell's philosophy ever peak with this team??!
RE: If Rex gets canned,  
NYG4246 : 12/19/2014 1:25 pm : link
In comment 12040082 Ira said:
Quote:
I'd like him as dc.


abso-fucking-lutely not
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