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TC doesn't play Washington at WR because of Special Teams?

Ken from Flushing : 12/18/2014 9:33 am
It appears Coach Coughlin does not want to play Corey Washington in the offense because his special teams play is not good enough.

I thought it was some stupid reason like he cannot get off the line, or he runs bad routes, or he drops the ball too much in practice.

I am reassured it is for a much better reason.

I don't know how Eli gets on the field at all these last 10 years, I hear his ST play stinks.
Why Corey Washington Doesn't Play More - ( New Window )
Answers the question as to why OBJ returns punts.  
Ken from Flushing : 12/18/2014 9:36 am : link
I guess he would be a gunner otherwise.
Stuff like this  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 9:39 am : link
is why anti-TC people can legitimately call him stubborn. I want to retain him, but good grief, if he is a good WR, then screw special teams
And people keep saying that Gilbride and Fewell  
Bill in UT : 12/18/2014 9:44 am : link
are/were the problems for why promising guys don't get PT. But I'm sure half of BBI will come down on TCs side on this, as with everything.
i think the OP and the blogger missed this part  
HomerJones45 : 12/18/2014 9:45 am : link
"But he does have to become better at his job."

Washington is this year's Jernigan.
I like TC  
JFIB : 12/18/2014 9:47 am : link
But that shit is maddening. It's reasons like this that I think it's time to move on from him. The game has passed him by. This is right up there with "i don't do QB sneaks" on 4th and an inch with the game on the line when your running game hasn't worked all day!
Yes, if only Corey Washington were in the lineup  
Victor in CT : 12/18/2014 9:48 am : link
they would be 9-5. Please make it stop.
RE: I like TC  
Victor in CT : 12/18/2014 9:48 am : link
In comment 12040924 JFIB said:
Quote:
But that shit is maddening. It's reasons like this that I think it's time to move on from him. The game has passed him by. This is right up there with "i don't do QB sneaks" on 4th and an inch with the game on the line when your running game hasn't worked all day!


And you would be jumping down his throat if he did it and Eli got hurt.
TC  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/18/2014 9:48 am : link
said this in training camp about him.

For most coaches, if there are not going to be a big set of plays for you on offense, the easiest way to make an impact is on special teams.

Washington for whatever reason, hasn't done it. Kickoffs, punts, FG team. There is no good reason why he hasn't.

It is a totally fair request. Does Washington have an explanation as to why he hasn't made ANY impact at all in an area that is 1/3rd of the game and can make a difference in a W or L?
It could be  
old man : 12/18/2014 9:51 am : link
he doesn't play all out on ST.
From a WR coaching perspective, maybe he's a pinball for the receiving team and can't/doesnt have the ability or agility to avoid hits down field on covering punts, which may say something about his ability to get off the line when he's at WR. Also on Giants receiving punts maybe his blocking also sucks, which can make a difference of a big gain or big loss on a sweep play when he is at WR
It's a total expected skill set thing.
RE: TC  
Blue Baller : 12/18/2014 9:51 am : link
In comment 12040929 BigBlueinChicago said:
Quote:


It is a totally fair request. Does Washington have an explanation as to why he hasn't made ANY impact at all in an area that is 1/3rd of the game and can make a difference in a W or L?

If he did I'm guessing it would start with 6'4" and end with 214 lbs....not the ideal size for a STer
RE: Stuff like this  
jeff57 : 12/18/2014 9:53 am : link
In comment 12040901 River Mike said:
Quote:
is why anti-TC people can legitimately call him stubborn. I want to retain him, but good grief, if he is a good WR, then screw special teams


A big reason why we need a new coach. He'll use any excuse not to play certain guys, especially if they're younger players. And this is excuse is bullshit because I remember him praising Washington's special teams play in preseason.

No, Tom would rather play that future star Kevin Ogletree than giving the rookie a shot.
He said the 4th and 5th WR  
The Turk : 12/18/2014 9:53 am : link
need to be able to contribute on special teams in reference to Washington. What Coughlin was actually referring to was earlier in the year when Washington wouldn't even get a uniform on game day and at that point he didn't get activated because he would have been at best the 4th or 5th receiver and his teams play wasn't good enough.

Now he is getting a uniform because of the injuries but he is still the 4th or 5th receiver. We absolutely never go with 5 WR sets so if he is 5 he will never play. If he is 4 then he will likely see only a few plays each game and over the past several weeks with leads we have only used 4 WR sets on a very few occasions.
Wouldn't normally bother me, but knowing the ST coach is Tom Quinn  
jcn56 : 12/18/2014 9:53 am : link
and STs in general have been mediocre at best and a lot worse other times, counting on STs plays to get you into the starting lineup seems to be a broken cycle.
if the 4th/5th WR  
Rocky369 : 12/18/2014 9:56 am : link
have to contribute on specials, why can't you reogranize the depth chart if randle and co aren't performing?
RE: And people keep saying that Gilbride and Fewell  
Josh in the City : 12/18/2014 9:58 am : link
In comment 12040915 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
are/were the problems for why promising guys don't get PT. But I'm sure half of BBI will come down on TCs side on this, as with everything.


Huh!? Rookies are playing and contributing way more this year than any other year under Killdrive. If you think OBJ would be anywhere close to as effective in that complicated shitstorm of an offense then I don't have anything left to say to you.
So TC  
Fast Eddie : 12/18/2014 9:59 am : link
eliminates a 6'4" red zone target who he admitted during pre season that all Washington does is go up and catches balls merely because he doesn't do well on specials? Freekin mind boggling.
Put me  
TMS : 12/18/2014 9:59 am : link
with the half that wants TC to make those decisions based on what he sees in practice and is told my his coaches.
That's fuckin ridiculous.  
eclipz928 : 12/18/2014 10:00 am : link
You got the guy on the active roster every week, and you acknowledge that he's done a good job executing in the offense . . . but you keep him benched to penalize him for being poor on special teams???

It's the same nonsense that Coughlin pulled with David Wilson - he seems insistent on spiting these players who can be legitimate contributors to the team just because they don't rise up to his absurd set of standards.
Heard it with Barden too  
mattlawson : 12/18/2014 10:01 am : link
Not at all surprised. If all you're running is fades in the green zone though - would make sense to have your biggest guys in there. Preston Parker over Washington on the goal line? Cmon.
RE: RE: TC  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/18/2014 10:06 am : link
In comment 12040937 Blue Baller said:
Quote:
If he did I'm guessing it would start with 6'4" and end with 214 lbs....not the ideal size for a STer


Then this is the same argument about Barden years ago.

Barden would be a weekly scratch in the same role Washington is now.

He could never crack the top 4 of the WR chart and never could make an impact on specials as many speculated it was due to his height/weight, so he was an afterthought to the coaching staff.

Clearly there has been an opening in the WR depth chart to move up and he couldn't get past Preston Parker, a middling at best NFL player?

That to me is on him. He needs to do everything to get people to notice him day in and day out. It appears he hasn't been able to.
Stubborn old man right there, no other way around it.  
ImaGiant86 : 12/18/2014 10:07 am : link
Unfortunately he either doesn't care enough to try and find away to get Washington in the game or he's incapable of finding a way. Either is pathetic and unacceptable at this point in the season.

After we get steam rolled  
phil fromphilly : 12/18/2014 10:07 am : link
the next 2 weeks and everyone gets their pitchforks back out this will be one of the reasons folks want to see TC retire. Sometimes players just don't practice well but know how to ball out come game time. With all of the other injuries at WR this dude should be on the field a whole lot more. Tom needs to get the young guys some reps in this lost season to see who those real gamers are. Didn't we just go through this last year with ownership wondering aloud why some of the young guys didn't see the field more?
TC  
gmen9892 : 12/18/2014 10:07 am : link
Has been operating this way for his ENTIRE tenure. This did not just start over the last 3-4 years. Nobody was bitching about this kinda stuff when we were winning, but now that we are losing, everyone has a problem with it.
This is such bullshit.  
Victor in CT : 12/18/2014 10:07 am : link
"It's the same nonsense that Coughlin pulled with David Wilson - he seems insistent on spiting these players who can be legitimate contributors to the team just because they don't rise up to his absurd set of standards."

Wilson didn't play because HE DIDN'T KNOW THE PLAYBOOK! Jerrold Ingram said so publicly.

Ramses Barden SUCKED. He could not run routes or get separation. He was about as good as Adrien Robinson.

And Jernigan SUCKS more than any of them.
Right same as Barden,  
TMS : 12/18/2014 10:09 am : link
who did not do very much anywhere else when he left here, did he? Maybe TC had that right by not playing him either, or does that not fit your arguments ?
TC  
Dragon : 12/18/2014 10:10 am : link
Has a thousand reason why young guys don't get on the field. Then once they are on the field you will here he needs to learn how to do this or that but it took two years to get on the field.

Ogletree has played 4, Robinson has 14, Williams has 14, Fells 14 games they all have one tackle so they are killing it on ST right? Just look at the list of our reserves and see who is making the tackles on special it's a very short list.
RE: Right same as Barden,  
ImaGiant86 : 12/18/2014 10:12 am : link
In comment 12040988 TMS said:
Quote:
who did not do very much anywhere else when he left here, did he? Maybe TC had that right by not playing him either, or does that not fit your arguments ?


Kevin Ogletree has bounced around like a ping pong ball and he's seeing offensive snaps. He's not exactly beaming with talent or in the plans for our future.

This isn't about skill, it';s about personnel decisions based off of an old school mindset and unwillingness to change.
Why is it assumed Washington is a good WR  
BillT : 12/18/2014 10:13 am : link
He's a very raw rookie out of a small time program. He's got a ton to learn and he has to prove, in practice, that he deserves time on the field as a WR. Why is this such a hard concept here. When you guys played on teams did the coach not care about how you practiced?
You would think we would have better ST with TC's attitude  
Ken from Flushing : 12/18/2014 10:13 am : link
I don't think our ST have been anything but mediocre to poor since he has been HC and yet he clearly does care.

Also, I believe CW has been active for most of the games through the season. So if his ST skills are poor and he won't play him at WR, why?
TC  
Dragon : 12/18/2014 10:13 am : link
If they guy is no good then why does it take three or four years of learning to realize this guy is not cutting the mustard. If he was cutting guys 1st or 2nd years because they are just not good enough then we could all say he is a very good judge of talent but that is not the case.
Of course the irony is that Coughlin insists of keeping Quinn  
jeff57 : 12/18/2014 10:17 am : link
as special teams coach. Someone who does more damage to the special teams than anyone else.
Just maybe there is more to it  
steve in ky : 12/18/2014 10:20 am : link
Coughlin wouldn't be the first or last NFL coach to use the media to send a message to a player.

RE: Why is it assumed Washington is a good WR  
rocco8112 : 12/18/2014 10:21 am : link
In comment 12040997 BillT said:
Quote:
He's a very raw rookie out of a small time program. He's got a ton to learn and he has to prove, in practice, that he deserves time on the field as a WR. Why is this such a hard concept here. When you guys played on teams did the coach not care about how you practiced?


This pretty much sums it all up.

Guy is raw, good chance he never pans out to much, if he is not giving a quality effort in the roles he has on the team why would he be made a starter?

i would  
Les in TO : 12/18/2014 10:22 am : link
understand coughlin's explanation if washington was ruled inactive for a game. but if he's active as he has been and he can contribute on offense, he shouldn't be withheld simply because he is struggling on specials.
Gents, this is football  
JonC : 12/18/2014 10:24 am : link
This is how most, if not all, coaches operate.

It's a meritocracy, you earn the PT you're given by proving yourself in practice. He's given the PT coaches feel he has earned and won't fuck up in games.

Coughlin's teams  
RetroJint : 12/18/2014 10:25 am : link
are at their best when an extra wide receiver like a Clayton or a Thomas can tackle on specials. Washington screwed up a punt-team blocking assignment that led to a partially blocked punt. He should have closed from the wing when he saw the overload. He's not good enough to play ahead of the first 3 WRs & Ogletree is a tough guy, who runs a better slant than Washington. Remember his Opening Night game a couple of years ago against the Giants? Plus he is a good tackler. By all means fire Coughlin over all of this. He makes so many mistakes judging talent.
Threads like these reveal  
JonC : 12/18/2014 10:26 am : link
those who've never played organized football.
RE: Gents, this is football  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/18/2014 10:26 am : link
In comment 12041022 JonC said:
Quote:
This is how most, if not all, coaches operate.

It's a meritocracy, you earn the PT you're given by proving yourself in practice. He's given the PT coaches feel he has earned and won't fuck up in games.


Well, it should be a meritocracy. But to read his comments, he speaks highly of his work as a receiver in practice, then says the reason he doesn't have a role on the offense is because he doesn't make any plays on special teams.
Speak highly to encourage hard work  
JonC : 12/18/2014 10:28 am : link
and acknowledge it in public, which doesn't necessarily mean he's done enough to earn PT in games. Fans won't know the decision making details in this regard, but I can tell you it simply means he's not demonstrating enough to the coaches in practice.

Retro makes good points above.
Tom has two games left to look good  
silverfox : 12/18/2014 10:29 am : link
He's not going to jeopardize his position at this point. I think the Giants get rolled big time the next two games. If the Rams can contain OBJ, the Giants may not even score. The Eagles will screen-pass the Giants helpless middle of the field defense into submission by halftime.

Having said that, I seriously doubt the win/loss record will have any bearing on Reese or Coughlin. The owners most likely brought McAdoo here to replace Coughlin at some point (they would prefer an in-house transition, and McAdoo has been talked about as HC material in other circles). Its clear he's not ready yet because he has yet to prove he can run an offense let alone a team.

Fewell will be this year's scape goat, but seriously, the entire defensive coaching staff should be fired as well.
It gets so tiring listening to the Coughlin...  
okiegiant : 12/18/2014 10:30 am : link
won't play rookies comments.

With small actice roster sizes  
JonC : 12/18/2014 10:30 am : link
football are forced to find roles and reasons to put players in position to succeed. As Retro said, WRs down the depth chart under TC are expected to be able to play specials, for example. Think of how important Devin Thomas was in 2011, as an important example of what TC is alluding to.
Others have touched on it....  
KeoweeFan : 12/18/2014 10:35 am : link
To me, lack of ST ability is a reason to keep a player off the 53 man roster.
But if he is already suited up on gameday what's the point of not giving him offensive reps?
If he just isn't prepared for the offense, then be clear that is the reason he doesn't get looks or opportunities.
(Just what did Plax do on STs?)
1. The reference came  
dancing blue bear : 12/18/2014 10:37 am : link
from the fact that washington didn't dress for many weeks. This is not crazy, and is actually SOP in the NFL. You only have 45 guys who dress. If you get a uniform you have to play specials. This is why Bromely (and most DTs under this regime) don't dress. There is not much of a role on ST for DT's or 6'5" WR. You can't dress a guy to play 12 snaps. There is not enough depth on game day to do that.

2. Maybe the guy wasn't ready earlier in the year. He came from Newberry College. Anyone know where that is? Same deal with Wynn. We wring our habds. . . why did it take so long to get in there. . . maybe he needed that practice time to learn the NFL game.

3. This is not the year to cry 'TC doesn't play rookies' It's silly./ It was never true, particularly this year. Honestly, i think the overall youth and inexperience has cost us a game or 2 this year. it was nec and should serve us going forward.
When he has gotten a chance to play WR  
Blue Baller : 12/18/2014 10:40 am : link
he has not looked good
Work ethic thing I think  
bronxct1 : 12/18/2014 10:42 am : link
I think it points to TC not being pleased with how hard he's working. He was basically told that to be activated on game day he would need to contribute on special teams, he's had most of the season to work at that and show improvement.

Things like this point to a coaches trust in that player. If he can't do what is asked of him all year, why would he trust that he'll be able to go in and execute on offense?
RE: Work ethic thing I think  
Blue Baller : 12/18/2014 10:47 am : link
In comment 12041066 bronxct1 said:
Quote:
I think it points to TC not being pleased with how hard he's working. He was basically told that to be activated on game day he would need to contribute on special teams, he's had most of the season to work at that and show improvement.

Things like this point to a coaches trust in that player. If he can't do what is asked of him all year, why would he trust that he'll be able to go in and execute on offense?


or maybe he just doesn't have the physical tools to play that role.

You can't just will yourself to be a good special teams player

I had the feeling from his comments that Coughlin didn't  
jeff57 : 12/18/2014 10:53 am : link
want to keep Washington on the roster before the regular season started. But because Washington made so many big catches in the preseason, he couldn't, or Reese wouldn't let him, cut him. (Let that sink in). And Coughlin has shown his pique ever since.
RE: RE: Gents, this is football  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 10:56 am : link
In comment 12041026 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 12041022 JonC said:


Quote:


This is how most, if not all, coaches operate.

It's a meritocracy, you earn the PT you're given by proving yourself in practice. He's given the PT coaches feel he has earned and won't fuck up in games.




Well, it should be a meritocracy. But to read his comments, he speaks highly of his work as a receiver in practice, then says the reason he doesn't have a role on the offense is because he doesn't make any plays on special teams.


Exactly! Some guys are completely missing the point. Nobody is saying he should be playing if he is not showing well in practice or in limited game time. The criticism is of the excuse given for not playing him ... special teams. To me that's dumb. if he's not showing enough at WR, then don't play him at WR. If he's not showing enough on ST, then don't play him on ST. Not playing him at WR because of poor ST play is just as head scratching as not playing a good ST player on SP because hes not showing well at WR
SP = ST  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 10:57 am : link
.
i get  
Les in TO : 12/18/2014 10:58 am : link
the practice performance to game performance playing time correlation. but if he's not performing in practice, why activate him for the game at all then?
It may not just be special team skills.  
TMS : 12/18/2014 11:03 am : link
He probably cannot block or tackle in the offense either. Plaxico was a very good blocker and tackler when he had to be. This guy may be be completely one dimensional and a liability everywhere else. So you are playing a man short unless you are throwing to him.
It's truly amazing how clueless some of you are.  
NYGmen58 : 12/18/2014 11:06 am : link
Criticizing Tom Coughlin because the 5th WR on the depth chart doesn't play more.

I like Washington and was happy to see him make a catch last week but he is buried behind a lot of other more versatile and more experienced wideouts.

I love how some of you conveniently forget he was thrown a fade on first and goal in the very first game of the season against the Lions which he could not come down with.

I'm sorry but everything in this game is earned. He needs to make the most of his opportunities and prove he deserves more playing time. Whether it's on special teams, in practice, or in limited game snaps.

Shame on any of you couch potato losers bashing Coach Coughlin. Go back to your Madden video games and fantasy football leagues.
Threads like these are hilarious  
gmen9892 : 12/18/2014 11:07 am : link
Purely based off of speculation. NOBODY on this board has any clue how good CW is or can be. But hey, he did AWESOME in 3 preaseason games against 3rd and 4th string competition (most who are probably not in the NFL right now), so lets bitch that TC doesn't play rookies (even though OBJ, Kennard, and Richburg have all played basically every snap from the halfway point on).

Come on!  
Doomster : 12/18/2014 11:07 am : link
RE: I like TC
Victor in CT : 9:48 am : link : reply
In comment 12040924 JFIB said:
Quote:
But that shit is maddening. It's reasons like this that I think it's time to move on from him. The game has passed him by. This is right up there with "i don't do QB sneaks" on 4th and an inch with the game on the line when your running game hasn't worked all day!


And you would be jumping down his throat if he did it and Eli got hurt.


You are worried about Eli getting hurt doing a qb sneak? Then you probably can't sleep nights, thinking Eli is going back to pass behind this OL?

Must admit, one of the things that really bugs me about this team, on offense and defense is, I don't think we use our players to their best advantage....we force players to play a system, rather than use the strengths of the individual talents of the players? Afraid of failure? Look at the failure of this team as it is.....conservatism in coaching has cost this team too many games over the years, and hindered it's progress....this team does not take chances, on play calling, or using players, until they are forced to...
Makes zero sense not playing CW the next two games  
PSIMMS 22-25-268 : 12/18/2014 11:07 am : link
at WR. Randle hasn't played well (esp. for a 2d rounder) and has recently drawn the ire of the staff. Parker is what he is. And Ogletree is a journeyman. Why not see what you have with this unknown talent??? He is 6'4" 215, has proven he can play inside the red zone and you may unearth a keeper at WR, which we desperately could use given the uncertainty of Cruz's recovery and Randle's disappointing season.
Furthermore  
gmen9892 : 12/18/2014 11:08 am : link
How many small school WR's do you see excelling in the NFL in their rookie season? Ever.
RE: Furthermore  
PSIMMS 22-25-268 : 12/18/2014 11:10 am : link
In comment 12041127 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
How many small school WR's do you see excelling in the NFL in their rookie season? Ever.


John Brown. Cardinals. This season.
RE: It's truly amazing how clueless some of you are.  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 11:10 am : link
In comment 12041119 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
Criticizing Tom Coughlin because the 5th WR on the depth chart doesn't play more.

I like Washington and was happy to see him make a catch last week but he is buried behind a lot of other more versatile and more experienced wideouts.

I love how some of you conveniently forget he was thrown a fade on first and goal in the very first game of the season against the Lions which he could not come down with.

I'm sorry but everything in this game is earned. He needs to make the most of his opportunities and prove he deserves more playing time. Whether it's on special teams, in practice, or in limited game snaps.

Shame on any of you couch potato losers bashing Coach Coughlin. Go back to your Madden video games and fantasy football leagues.


I'll say it once more. The criticism is not that he doesn't get to play, its the REASON give for his lack of playing time that's being criticized. If there are other reasons, fine. But thats' not what the thread is about.
No, he is not on the bench because he  
Gman11 : 12/18/2014 11:11 am : link
isn't good on special teams. He is on the bench because he's not good at WR. He would PLAY MORE if he was good on special teams (because he would play on special teams, duh!). He will play more at WR when he becomes a better WR.
RE: RE: Furthermore  
gmen9892 : 12/18/2014 11:12 am : link
In comment 12041131 PSIMMS 22-25-268 said:
Quote:
In comment 12041127 gmen9892 said:


Quote:


How many small school WR's do you see excelling in the NFL in their rookie season? Ever.



John Brown. Cardinals. This season.


John Brown is the exception, not the rule. The kid was also drafted in the 3rd round for a reason. He clearly has talent. CW went undrafted for a reason.
How much explaining needs to be done  
armsteadeatslittlekids : 12/18/2014 11:12 am : link
to prove that a 5th string wide receiver isn't good enough to see playing time?
RE: RE: Furthermore  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/18/2014 11:13 am : link
In comment 12041131 PSIMMS 22-25-268 said:
Quote:
In comment 12041127 gmen9892 said:


Quote:


How many small school WR's do you see excelling in the NFL in their rookie season? Ever.



John Brown. Cardinals. This season.


The kid Gabriel on the Browns is also doing pretty well too. Went to Abilene Christian.

Playing time for fringe players  
B in ALB : 12/18/2014 11:13 am : link
is not earned during preseason games or in some cases during regular season games. It's earned in the film room, on the practice field, in the weight room, group meetings, etc. That's where these guys are auditioning - not against 3rd and 4th string depth guys during a relative shitshow in the fourth quarter of a preseason game.

Sure - Washington flashed ability to be an endzone threat in the preseason. Great - HE SHOULD! He's 6'4" playing against 5'10" 4th string CBs with no shot at making a team He's caught a couple of balls during the regular season. Great. So has Ogletree - a veteran player who ramps up a hell of a lot quicker than a young guy just entering the league.

But if you cannot grasp simple concepts during specials and perform well what makes anyone think that the coaching staff will suddenly say, "Hey! Forget Special Teams! Let's get this guy the ball as an integral part of our offensive gameplan!"

Come on.
This is an example of the good and bad with Coughlin.  
kmed : 12/18/2014 11:13 am : link
It's good because his style of coaching is conducive to teaching young players how to be professionals and well rounded players. It's bad because we might miss some young talent in an attempt to teach them about the bigger picture.
RE: I had the feeling from his comments that Coughlin didn't  
BMac : 12/18/2014 11:16 am : link
In comment 12041087 jeff57 said:
Quote:
want to keep Washington on the roster before the regular season started. But because Washington made so many big catches in the preseason, he couldn't, or Reese wouldn't let him, cut him. (Let that sink in). And Coughlin has shown his pique ever since.


An absolutely bullshit assumption with no evidence whatever to back it up. Bravo!
RE: Playing time for fringe players  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 11:20 am : link
In comment 12041148 B in ALB said:
Quote:
is not earned during preseason games or in some cases during regular season games. It's earned in the film room, on the practice field, in the weight room, group meetings, etc. That's where these guys are auditioning - not against 3rd and 4th string depth guys during a relative shitshow in the fourth quarter of a preseason game.

Sure - Washington flashed ability to be an endzone threat in the preseason. Great - HE SHOULD! He's 6'4" playing against 5'10" 4th string CBs with no shot at making a team He's caught a couple of balls during the regular season. Great. So has Ogletree - a veteran player who ramps up a hell of a lot quicker than a young guy just entering the league.

But if you cannot grasp simple concepts during specials and perform well what makes anyone think that the coaching staff will suddenly say, "Hey! Forget Special Teams! Let's get this guy the ball as an integral part of our offensive gameplan!"

Come on.


Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realize that he didn't play WR in practice
RE: Playing time for fringe players  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 11:20 am : link
In comment 12041148 B in ALB said:
Quote:
is not earned during preseason games or in some cases during regular season games. It's earned in the film room, on the practice field, in the weight room, group meetings, etc. That's where these guys are auditioning - not against 3rd and 4th string depth guys during a relative shitshow in the fourth quarter of a preseason game.

Sure - Washington flashed ability to be an endzone threat in the preseason. Great - HE SHOULD! He's 6'4" playing against 5'10" 4th string CBs with no shot at making a team He's caught a couple of balls during the regular season. Great. So has Ogletree - a veteran player who ramps up a hell of a lot quicker than a young guy just entering the league.

But if you cannot grasp simple concepts during specials and perform well what makes anyone think that the coaching staff will suddenly say, "Hey! Forget Special Teams! Let's get this guy the ball as an integral part of our offensive gameplan!"

Come on.


Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realize that he didn't play WR in practice
Another example of choosing a journeyman over an UFA  
PSIMMS 22-25-268 : 12/18/2014 11:23 am : link
was when we played Stokley over Cruz until Stokley got hurt. Not saying Washington is or will be like Cruz (or will even be any good). But with two games left, a starting WR late for meetings and inconsistent on the field and no playoffs this season, why not try and find out???
RE: Playing time for fringe players  
jeff57 : 12/18/2014 11:25 am : link
In comment 12041148 B in ALB said:
Quote:
is not earned during preseason games or in some cases during regular season games. It's earned in the film room, on the practice field, in the weight room, group meetings, etc.


That's the philosophy that resulted in Kiwanuka starting every game until he got hurt. And if he hadn't gotten hurt, he'd still be starting, despite his horrible on field production. And Moore would still be languishing on the bench.
RE: RE: Playing time for fringe players  
B in ALB : 12/18/2014 11:27 am : link
In comment 12041173 River Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 12041148 B in ALB said:


Quote:


is not earned during preseason games or in some cases during regular season games. It's earned in the film room, on the practice field, in the weight room, group meetings, etc. That's where these guys are auditioning - not against 3rd and 4th string depth guys during a relative shitshow in the fourth quarter of a preseason game.

Sure - Washington flashed ability to be an endzone threat in the preseason. Great - HE SHOULD! He's 6'4" playing against 5'10" 4th string CBs with no shot at making a team He's caught a couple of balls during the regular season. Great. So has Ogletree - a veteran player who ramps up a hell of a lot quicker than a young guy just entering the league.

But if you cannot grasp simple concepts during specials and perform well what makes anyone think that the coaching staff will suddenly say, "Hey! Forget Special Teams! Let's get this guy the ball as an integral part of our offensive gameplan!"

Come on.



Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realize that he didn't play WR in practice


I didn't say that. But if you have half a brain you would realize that he's not getting 1st team reps during the week on offense for a reason. But yet many of you are clammoring for him to play on Sundays no matter what?

Is this really that difficult to understand?
RE: Come on!  
Victor in CT : 12/18/2014 11:27 am : link
In comment 12041123 Doomster said:
Quote:
RE: I like TC
Victor in CT : 9:48 am : link : reply
In comment 12040924 JFIB said:
Quote:
But that shit is maddening. It's reasons like this that I think it's time to move on from him. The game has passed him by. This is right up there with "i don't do QB sneaks" on 4th and an inch with the game on the line when your running game hasn't worked all day!


And you would be jumping down his throat if he did it and Eli got hurt.


You are worried about Eli getting hurt doing a qb sneak? Then you probably can't sleep nights, thinking Eli is going back to pass behind this OL?

Must admit, one of the things that really bugs me about this team, on offense and defense is, I don't think we use our players to their best advantage....we force players to play a system, rather than use the strengths of the individual talents of the players? Afraid of failure? Look at the failure of this team as it is.....conservatism in coaching has cost this team too many games over the years, and hindered it's progress....this team does not take chances, on play calling, or using players, until they are forced to...


Yes, I do fear for Eli every time he drops back! :-)

But Doom, that is why TC won't do it. He doesn't believe in exposing the QB.
Nobody seems  
gmen9892 : 12/18/2014 11:28 am : link
To have an explanation for why OBJ, Kennard, Richburg, and Wynn are playing this year. Pugh started last year from Day 1. David Wilson played a bunch his rookie year. Why are all of those players able to play as rookies, but people still go back to the narrative that TC doesnt play rookies. He doesnt play rookies that don't deserve it. Plain and simple.
I don't know if Corey Washington is going to be a good NFL WR  
Ken from Flushing : 12/18/2014 11:28 am : link
But there are some things I do know:

1. Randle, Parker, and Ogletree don't scare anyone.

2. Cruz is a ? for next year.

3. What impressed me about CW in the preseason was not the touchdowns. It was that he caught the high pass. Barden was tall, but he couldn't catch balls higher than his shoulders. CW can.

4. I would rather find out now if he is any good or not. Not after 3 years like we do with so many of our receivers.

RE: RE: Playing time for fringe players  
B in ALB : 12/18/2014 11:28 am : link
In comment 12041184 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 12041148 B in ALB said:


Quote:


is not earned during preseason games or in some cases during regular season games. It's earned in the film room, on the practice field, in the weight room, group meetings, etc.



That's the philosophy that resulted in Kiwanuka starting every game until he got hurt. And if he hadn't gotten hurt, he'd still be starting, despite his horrible on field production. And Moore would still be languishing on the bench.


One could argue that the Kiwi thing is Hassselbeck-esque when he was with Philly.

Regardless, comparing an aging vet with history to a new guy playing STs is a bit much, no?
RE: This is an example of the good and bad with Coughlin.  
B in ALB : 12/18/2014 11:31 am : link
In comment 12041149 kmed said:
Quote:
It's good because his style of coaching is conducive to teaching young players how to be professionals and well rounded players. It's bad because we might miss some young talent in an attempt to teach them about the bigger picture.


But you can't have it both ways with one player, right? That player either performs enough in practice and everything outside Sunday to get a shot or he doesn't. I would think TC and the staff are adept at making that determination.

Certainly, a bunch of ham n eggers like us can't be called upon to make that call, right?
River Mike/TTH  
JonC : 12/18/2014 11:38 am : link
I think TC's "excuse" is more of a generic answer, not so much a detailed, thought out explanation. I wouldn't put a great deal of weight on it by itself.

B in ALB's breakdown is more than likely accurate, and can be applied to any player who shows promise in pre-season, and then can't get on the field for reps during the regular season.
My question is  
Danny Kanell : 12/18/2014 11:40 am : link
If he isn't doing the job on special teams and Coughlin won't put him out there at WR because of it, why dress him at all?
RE: RE: RE: Playing time for fringe players  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 11:43 am : link
In comment 12041187 B in ALB said:
Quote:
In comment 12041173 River Mike said:


Quote:


In comment 12041148 B in ALB said:


Quote:


is not earned during preseason games or in some cases during regular season games. It's earned in the film room, on the practice field, in the weight room, group meetings, etc. That's where these guys are auditioning - not against 3rd and 4th string depth guys during a relative shitshow in the fourth quarter of a preseason game.

Sure - Washington flashed ability to be an endzone threat in the preseason. Great - HE SHOULD! He's 6'4" playing against 5'10" 4th string CBs with no shot at making a team He's caught a couple of balls during the regular season. Great. So has Ogletree - a veteran player who ramps up a hell of a lot quicker than a young guy just entering the league.

But if you cannot grasp simple concepts during specials and perform well what makes anyone think that the coaching staff will suddenly say, "Hey! Forget Special Teams! Let's get this guy the ball as an integral part of our offensive gameplan!"

Come on.



Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realize that he didn't play WR in practice



I didn't say that. But if you have half a brain you would realize that he's not getting 1st team reps during the week on offense for a reason. But yet many of you are clammoring for him to play on Sundays no matter what?

Is this really that difficult to understand?


What's difficult to understand is where you have read that "many are clammoring for him to play on Sundays no matter what." It's so simple ... whether, and how much he plays at WR should depend on how well he plays/practices at WR. Frankly I find it difficult to understand how that is even arguable. Is this really so difficult to understand?
I  
AcidTest : 12/18/2014 11:44 am : link
sincerely doubt Washington is dogging it on ST. This is a guy who came to us after being cut by the Cardinals with very little chance of making the team. And yet he did, undoubtedly at least to some extent because of his hard work. He also looked very good at WR when given the chance IMO.

My guess is that if he is having trouble on ST, it's not because of a lack of effort, but because his body type may not lend itself to success in that part of the game. As somebody noted, he is 6'4". Lack of success on ST should therefore not preclude him from playing WR, especially since he has produced at that position. Should we not play Hankins at DT because he would probably suck at ST?

It's a different story entirely if he's not playing more at WR because he needs more time to adjust to the speed of the NFL. We've already had enough miscommunication INTs between Eli and RR. But not playing him at WR because despite his best efforts he's unproductive on ST seems ridiculous.
Anyone who says thins like "the game has passed him by"  
NYGmen58 : 12/18/2014 11:44 am : link
or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.
RE: Nobody seems  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/18/2014 11:46 am : link
In comment 12041191 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
To have an explanation for why OBJ, Kennard, Richburg, and Wynn are playing this year. Pugh started last year from Day 1. David Wilson played a bunch his rookie year. Why are all of those players able to play as rookies, but people still go back to the narrative that TC doesnt play rookies. He doesnt play rookies that don't deserve it. Plain and simple.


If you remember going back, Pugh only got into the lineup with Diehl got hurt in the Colts game at home in the preseason and was lost for several months.

The Giants were going to use him sparingly until that injury forced him into the lineup full-time. They were going to do the same with Richburg until Schwartz got hurt in the Jets game this year.

David Wilson only got 125 offensive snaps in 2012. 79 of them game in the last 4 games of that season when the team ran out of running backs after Bradshaw went down and Brown broke his leg (remember Kregg Lumpkin?).

TC has had a general pattern with rookies and that is to ease them in slowly as opposed to just handing them jobs and throwing them out there. I think most coaches would operate under that philosophy.

Of course, injury situations the last few years have altered those plans. Guys have been pressed into action, take their lumps and battle through.


RE: River Mike/TTH  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 11:48 am : link
In comment 12041226 JonC said:
Quote:
I think TC's "excuse" is more of a generic answer, not so much a detailed, thought out explanation. I wouldn't put a great deal of weight on it by itself.

B in ALB's breakdown is more than likely accurate, and can be applied to any player who shows promise in pre-season, and then can't get on the field for reps during the regular season.


Jon, you're probably right. I guess I have a problem with people touting their superior intellect by refuting claims that haven't been made. It happens often on BBI
RE: Anyone who says thins like  
Danny Kanell : 12/18/2014 11:48 am : link
In comment 12041256 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.


To be fair, it took an injury to a journeyman WR they picked up off the street and a blown out knee from Hixon to give Cruz a chance before they were about to cut him (and don't give me the technicality he wasn't a rookie). It was his first year.
RiverMike  
B in ALB : 12/18/2014 11:49 am : link
There are plenty of complainers on BBI who are arguing that he should be getting more reps at WR throughout the season. That's indisputable.

And honestly, at this point, with two games left I wouldn't be totally opposed to seeing him out there a bit more provided he's getting reps in practice. But earlier in the season i can see the coaching staff's moves a bit clearer.

For all we know, the kid has the potential to be really good. But maybe he's not doing the little things in practice on offense like blocking, running the correct route, lining up correctly, not committing penalties, dropping balls, etc. We all know TC is all about the details and finer points. None of us are at practice so it's all speculation to a point.

What's not speculation is that there is a reason the kid isn't playing more and it's a hell of a lot more complicated than "TC doesn't play rookies" or "It's all because of his ST play."

RE: RE: Anyone who says thins like  
NYGmen58 : 12/18/2014 11:55 am : link
In comment 12041266 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 12041256 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.



To be fair, it took an injury to a journeyman WR they picked up off the street and a blown out knee from Hixon to give Cruz a chance before they were about to cut him (and don't give me the technicality he wasn't a rookie). It was his first year.


Danny, again you (conveniently) forget how bad a training camp and preseason Cruz had in 2011. He barely made the roster and a lot of people (including many of the experts on BBI - some rearing their air-filled heads again on this thread) thought he was a flash-in-the-pan mirage from the year before.

So that was a swing and a miss by you.
RE: Anyone who says thins like  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 11:57 am : link
In comment 12041256 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.


I stated that I like TC and want him to be retained. My contention is that IF the reason that Washington is not playing WR is that he hasn't been good on ST, then TC is being very old school stubborn. Now, as JonC has observed, that may have been an off hand comment and not entirely true. I still want TC retained. No coach is perfect, nor are BBI posters :)
RE: RiverMike  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 12:01 pm : link
In comment 12041269 B in ALB said:
Quote:
There are plenty of complainers on BBI who are arguing that he should be getting more reps at WR throughout the season. That's indisputable.

And honestly, at this point, with two games left I wouldn't be totally opposed to seeing him out there a bit more provided he's getting reps in practice. But earlier in the season i can see the coaching staff's moves a bit clearer.

For all we know, the kid has the potential to be really good. But maybe he's not doing the little things in practice on offense like blocking, running the correct route, lining up correctly, not committing penalties, dropping balls, etc. We all know TC is all about the details and finer points. None of us are at practice so it's all speculation to a point.

What's not speculation is that there is a reason the kid isn't playing more and it's a hell of a lot more complicated than "TC doesn't play rookies" or "It's all because of his ST play."


B, can't argue with that. My posts were specifically addressed to the article's contention that it was due to ST play. It is almost certainly more than that, as you said.
RE: RE: RiverMike  
B in ALB : 12/18/2014 12:06 pm : link
In comment 12041301 River Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 12041269 B in ALB said:


Quote:


There are plenty of complainers on BBI who are arguing that he should be getting more reps at WR throughout the season. That's indisputable.

And honestly, at this point, with two games left I wouldn't be totally opposed to seeing him out there a bit more provided he's getting reps in practice. But earlier in the season i can see the coaching staff's moves a bit clearer.

For all we know, the kid has the potential to be really good. But maybe he's not doing the little things in practice on offense like blocking, running the correct route, lining up correctly, not committing penalties, dropping balls, etc. We all know TC is all about the details and finer points. None of us are at practice so it's all speculation to a point.

What's not speculation is that there is a reason the kid isn't playing more and it's a hell of a lot more complicated than "TC doesn't play rookies" or "It's all because of his ST play."




B, can't argue with that. My posts were specifically addressed to the article's contention that it was due to ST play. It is almost certainly more than that, as you said.


Got it RM. It's much more than just that. Tough for some to grasp when their dislike and disapproval of TC clouds judgement.
It is just,  
oldog : 12/18/2014 12:08 pm : link
unacceptable that OBJ is allowed in for so many snaps. I`ve been watching him on those punt returns all year and his performance has been mediocre at best. When will TC address this underperformance on special teams. Hasn`t made very many tackles either.
RE: RE: RE: Anyone who says thins like  
Danny Kanell : 12/18/2014 12:14 pm : link
In comment 12041279 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
In comment 12041266 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041256 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.



To be fair, it took an injury to a journeyman WR they picked up off the street and a blown out knee from Hixon to give Cruz a chance before they were about to cut him (and don't give me the technicality he wasn't a rookie). It was his first year.



Danny, again you (conveniently) forget how bad a training camp and preseason Cruz had in 2011. He barely made the roster and a lot of people (including many of the experts on BBI - some rearing their air-filled heads again on this thread) thought he was a flash-in-the-pan mirage from the year before.

So that was a swing and a miss by you.


How is that a swing and a miss? You asked for an example and I gave you one. You just don't want to hear it. Just make your point then and don't ask for examples to the contrary.
And to be clear  
Danny Kanell : 12/18/2014 12:18 pm : link
I don't necessarily disagree with you. I lean pro-Coughlin but a lot of the gripes some fans have towards his style isn't all unsubstantiated.
He should retire at 100 years old,  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/18/2014 12:24 pm : link
if that's what he wants!
Apologize  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 12:24 pm : link
for the double posts. Not sure what's happening other than my computer is a piece of crap.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Anyone who says thins like  
NYGmen58 : 12/18/2014 12:25 pm : link
In comment 12041329 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 12041279 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


In comment 12041266 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041256 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.



To be fair, it took an injury to a journeyman WR they picked up off the street and a blown out knee from Hixon to give Cruz a chance before they were about to cut him (and don't give me the technicality he wasn't a rookie). It was his first year.



Danny, again you (conveniently) forget how bad a training camp and preseason Cruz had in 2011. He barely made the roster and a lot of people (including many of the experts on BBI - some rearing their air-filled heads again on this thread) thought he was a flash-in-the-pan mirage from the year before.

So that was a swing and a miss by you.



How is that a swing and a miss? You asked for an example and I gave you one. You just don't want to hear it. Just make your point then and don't ask for examples to the contrary.


Because your example made no sense lol! You cited a 2nd year player (yes, I get it, it was technically his first full season) and the reason he did not play right away was because he had a horrible camp and preseason and did not EARN the right to play over the guys who were performing better than him at the time.

Again, you CONVENIENTLY FORGET that in that opening game against Washington, he WAS the slot receiver and dropped a wide open 3rd down pass which prompted the Giants to sign Brandon Stokely the following year.

You've done a very poor job defending your argument and made yourself look pretty bad in the process (no offense). If that's the best example you can provide, I think it proves my point pretty clearly lol.
Also apologize to B in Alb  
River Mike : 12/18/2014 12:26 pm : link
Re-reading my posts, I came off a bit more snarky than I intended ... just a bit more :)
week, not year  
NYGmen58 : 12/18/2014 12:26 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Anyone who says thins like  
Danny Kanell : 12/18/2014 12:28 pm : link
In comment 12041347 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
In comment 12041329 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041279 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


In comment 12041266 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041256 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.



To be fair, it took an injury to a journeyman WR they picked up off the street and a blown out knee from Hixon to give Cruz a chance before they were about to cut him (and don't give me the technicality he wasn't a rookie). It was his first year.



Danny, again you (conveniently) forget how bad a training camp and preseason Cruz had in 2011. He barely made the roster and a lot of people (including many of the experts on BBI - some rearing their air-filled heads again on this thread) thought he was a flash-in-the-pan mirage from the year before.

So that was a swing and a miss by you.



How is that a swing and a miss? You asked for an example and I gave you one. You just don't want to hear it. Just make your point then and don't ask for examples to the contrary.



Because your example made no sense lol! You cited a 2nd year player (yes, I get it, it was technically his first full season) and the reason he did not play right away was because he had a horrible camp and preseason and did not EARN the right to play over the guys who were performing better than him at the time.

Again, you CONVENIENTLY FORGET that in that opening game against Washington, he WAS the slot receiver and dropped a wide open 3rd down pass which prompted the Giants to sign Brandon Stokely the following year.

You've done a very poor job defending your argument and made yourself look pretty bad in the process (no offense). If that's the best example you can provide, I think it proves my point pretty clearly lol.


Ah, I get it now. You're not looking to have a real discussion, you're just here to be a douchebag (no offense). Carry on.
You play the rookie  
Randy in CT : 12/18/2014 12:31 pm : link
if/when they are an upgrade over whatever vet presense they have. Re: Washington, who I'd like to see play (and I thought I saw him in there recently?), he HAS to play Specials or you are using him at WR and perhaps a different player on STs instead of the two-fer that you expect from Rookies.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Anyone who says thins like  
NYGmen58 : 12/18/2014 12:37 pm : link
In comment 12041356 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 12041347 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


In comment 12041329 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041279 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


In comment 12041266 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041256 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.



To be fair, it took an injury to a journeyman WR they picked up off the street and a blown out knee from Hixon to give Cruz a chance before they were about to cut him (and don't give me the technicality he wasn't a rookie). It was his first year.



Danny, again you (conveniently) forget how bad a training camp and preseason Cruz had in 2011. He barely made the roster and a lot of people (including many of the experts on BBI - some rearing their air-filled heads again on this thread) thought he was a flash-in-the-pan mirage from the year before.

So that was a swing and a miss by you.



How is that a swing and a miss? You asked for an example and I gave you one. You just don't want to hear it. Just make your point then and don't ask for examples to the contrary.



Because your example made no sense lol! You cited a 2nd year player (yes, I get it, it was technically his first full season) and the reason he did not play right away was because he had a horrible camp and preseason and did not EARN the right to play over the guys who were performing better than him at the time.

Again, you CONVENIENTLY FORGET that in that opening game against Washington, he WAS the slot receiver and dropped a wide open 3rd down pass which prompted the Giants to sign Brandon Stokely the following year.

You've done a very poor job defending your argument and made yourself look pretty bad in the process (no offense). If that's the best example you can provide, I think it proves my point pretty clearly lol.



Ah, I get it now. You're not looking to have a real discussion, you're just here to be a douchebag (no offense). Carry on.


Dude, nothing personal, but I asked the board to provide one example of Coughlin not playing a rookie simply because they were a rookie and the "example" you gave wasn't even a rookie. Moreover, it was devoid of any key facts that support your claim, in fact, what's more embarrassing is that that the player you mentioned was given opportunities in WEEK 1 of that season. I'm not trying to be a douchebag but you embarrassed yourself on here by making a statement without thinking it through. I am sure people who are reading this thread are laughing at you and your "example". I know I am.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Anyone who says thins like  
Danny Kanell : 12/18/2014 12:40 pm : link
In comment 12041373 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
In comment 12041356 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041347 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


In comment 12041329 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041279 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


In comment 12041266 Danny Kanell said:


Quote:


In comment 12041256 NYGmen58 said:


Quote:


or calling Coughlin "stubborn" and "too conservative" clearly know very little about football, coaching, or leadership in general and have embarrassed themselves time after time and will continue to do so.

Give me one example of Coughlin not playing someone simply because they were a rookie.



To be fair, it took an injury to a journeyman WR they picked up off the street and a blown out knee from Hixon to give Cruz a chance before they were about to cut him (and don't give me the technicality he wasn't a rookie). It was his first year.



Danny, again you (conveniently) forget how bad a training camp and preseason Cruz had in 2011. He barely made the roster and a lot of people (including many of the experts on BBI - some rearing their air-filled heads again on this thread) thought he was a flash-in-the-pan mirage from the year before.

So that was a swing and a miss by you.



How is that a swing and a miss? You asked for an example and I gave you one. You just don't want to hear it. Just make your point then and don't ask for examples to the contrary.



Because your example made no sense lol! You cited a 2nd year player (yes, I get it, it was technically his first full season) and the reason he did not play right away was because he had a horrible camp and preseason and did not EARN the right to play over the guys who were performing better than him at the time.

Again, you CONVENIENTLY FORGET that in that opening game against Washington, he WAS the slot receiver and dropped a wide open 3rd down pass which prompted the Giants to sign Brandon Stokely the following year.

You've done a very poor job defending your argument and made yourself look pretty bad in the process (no offense). If that's the best example you can provide, I think it proves my point pretty clearly lol.



Ah, I get it now. You're not looking to have a real discussion, you're just here to be a douchebag (no offense). Carry on.



Dude, nothing personal, but I asked the board to provide one example of Coughlin not playing a rookie simply because they were a rookie and the "example" you gave wasn't even a rookie. Moreover, it was devoid of any key facts that support your claim, in fact, what's more embarrassing is that that the player you mentioned was given opportunities in WEEK 1 of that season. I'm not trying to be a douchebag but you embarrassed yourself on here by making a statement without thinking it through. I am sure people who are reading this thread are laughing at you and your "example". I know I am.


Cool.
stop fucking quoting each other, pricks.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/18/2014 12:42 pm : link
.
If the guy sucks on STs  
Bill in UT : 12/18/2014 12:47 pm : link
and isn't good enough at WR to see the field, why are we wasting a roster spot on him? You'd think a 5-9 team would need every player to be a contributor.
RE: This is such bullshit.  
diable : 12/18/2014 12:47 pm : link
In comment 12040981 Victor in CT said:
Quote:


Wilson didn't play because HE DIDN'T KNOW THE PLAYBOOK! Jerrold Ingram said so publicly.


Victor this is NOT TRUE.
You also might be wise to consider  
nicky43 : 12/18/2014 1:01 pm : link
That Tom was forced to answer a question and maybe he had to format that answer such that he doesn't uncover a weakness in Washington's WR play the he sees and that the other teams could exploit during a game if he exposed it.

So just because Tom didn't point to any particular WR play weaknesses, that does not mean he doesn't see any in Corey.

Terrible post by someone who doesn't understand  
WillieYoung : 12/18/2014 1:07 pm : link
the relationship between excelling on special teams and being given a shot in the offense.

Special teams is about imposing your will. To excel you have to want to carry out your assignment more than your opponent wants to stop you. if you can do that consistently you can be trusted to fight through traffic to get to your assignment on a route rather than take the long way around and hang your quarterback out to dry. Running pretty routes in your underwear in practice doesn't help a bit when the "bullets are flying". When you saw Jesse Armstead play special teams, you knew he was going to be a star some day.
As bad as CW is on specials  
Bill in UT : 12/18/2014 1:07 pm : link
Nassib must REALLY suck on them, lol.
RE: I don't know if Corey Washington is going to be a good NFL WR  
nicky43 : 12/18/2014 1:10 pm : link
In comment 12041194 Ken from Flushing said:
Quote:
But there are some things I do know:

1. Randle, Parker, and Ogletree don't scare anyone.

2. Cruz is a ? for next year.

3. What impressed me about CW in the preseason was not the touchdowns. It was that he caught the high pass. Barden was tall, but he couldn't catch balls higher than his shoulders. CW can.

4. I would rather find out now if he is any good or not. Not after 3 years like we do with so many of our receivers.


This is your problem...YOU want to find out now if CW can play. But Tom already knows this from watching him in practice sessions and in meetings where he gets to see CW play every week and you don't. So clearly Tom gets to see more of CW's play than any of us yet YOU have to see it during a game regardless if the coach thinks he's ready or not! LOL!
re  
diable : 12/18/2014 1:10 pm : link
The problem is that rookies make mistakes. And Coughlin has no patience for rookie mistakes.
RE: re  
Bill in UT : 12/18/2014 1:11 pm : link
In comment 12041446 diable said:
Quote:
And Coughlin has no patience for rookie mistakes.


Doesn't stop him from playing Eli :)
RE: re  
Victor in CT : 12/18/2014 1:14 pm : link
In comment 12041446 diable said:
Quote:
The problem is that rookies make mistakes. And Coughlin has no patience for rookie mistakes.


I know. You can see why. When you have veterans like Beckham, Williams, Richburg, Kennard why play a rookie?
He's played in every game but 1  
HomerJones45 : 12/18/2014 1:15 pm : link
of course the dunces don't notice when he's out there unless he catches a pass so they assume he isn't getting any PT.

Granted he did attend that football factory at Newberry so he should be immediately beating out 3 and 4 year vets because, because he's tall.
RE: RE: re  
nicky43 : 12/18/2014 1:18 pm : link
In comment 12041458 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12041446 diable said:


Quote:


The problem is that rookies make mistakes. And Coughlin has no patience for rookie mistakes.



I know. You can see why. When you have veterans like Beckham, Williams, Richburg, Kennard why play a rookie?


LOL! Good one Victor!
RE: RE: I don't know if Corey Washington is going to be a good NFL WR  
jeff57 : 12/18/2014 1:21 pm : link
In comment 12041445 nicky43 said:
Quote:
In comment 12041194 Ken from Flushing said:


Quote:


But there are some things I do know:

1. Randle, Parker, and Ogletree don't scare anyone.

2. Cruz is a ? for next year.

3. What impressed me about CW in the preseason was not the touchdowns. It was that he caught the high pass. Barden was tall, but he couldn't catch balls higher than his shoulders. CW can.

4. I would rather find out now if he is any good or not. Not after 3 years like we do with so many of our receivers.




This is your problem...YOU want to find out now if CW can play. But Tom already knows this from watching him in practice sessions and in meetings where he gets to see CW play every week and you don't. So clearly Tom gets to see more of CW's play than any of us yet YOU have to see it during a game regardless if the coach thinks he's ready or not! LOL!


Yes, Tom knows from all this. That's why he started Kiwanuka game after game. He's all knowing and infallible.
re  
diable : 12/18/2014 1:23 pm : link
bill

Kurt Warner had 6 td passes in 9 games. He wasn't exactly lighting it up.

RE: re  
Bill in UT : 12/18/2014 1:25 pm : link
In comment 12041480 diable said:
Quote:
bill

Kurt Warner had 6 td passes in 9 games. He wasn't exactly lighting it up.


I was referring to the rookie mistakes that Eli still makes
re  
diable : 12/18/2014 1:27 pm : link
Victor.

He didnt have a choice to play those rookies.
Bill in UT  
diable : 12/18/2014 1:33 pm : link
The moment they started Eli, there was no turning back.
RE: Terrible post by someone who doesn't understand  
NYGmen58 : 12/18/2014 1:34 pm : link
In comment 12041439 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
the relationship between excelling on special teams and being given a shot in the offense.

Special teams is about imposing your will. To excel you have to want to carry out your assignment more than your opponent wants to stop you. if you can do that consistently you can be trusted to fight through traffic to get to your assignment on a route rather than take the long way around and hang your quarterback out to dry. Running pretty routes in your underwear in practice doesn't help a bit when the "bullets are flying". When you saw Jesse Armstead play special teams, you knew he was going to be a star some day.


Best post of the thread. The OP knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
Gee, who to support on this difficult question  
HomerJones45 : 12/18/2014 2:27 pm : link
In this corner: a two-time Super Bowl Champion coach who has taken two separate franchises to the Conference championship game who in all probability will be enshrined in the HOF

or

In that corner: a bunch of fans who scout from their armchairs.

Tough choice
we sign eli  
wash88 : 12/18/2014 2:27 pm : link
No $$$ to sign good players.
Same bargain injured guys.
Draft doesnt matter because
coaches suck. Gilbride says
this O isnt for Eli. Not mobile.
Mara has to fire whole staff
but won't so don't get excited.
If he extends Tc..2 to 3 more
years cause he won't fire him
and pay.
You think washinton  
wash88 : 12/18/2014 2:29 pm : link
Will learn from our ST
and WR coach?
RE: Gee, who to support on this difficult question  
jeff57 : 12/18/2014 2:34 pm : link
In comment 12041611 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In this corner: a two-time Super Bowl Champion coach who has taken two separate franchises to the Conference championship game who in all probability will be enshrined in the HOF

or

In that corner: a bunch of fans who scout from their armchairs.

Tough choice


Yeah, let's just shut down this board. And instead we can spend all day kissing Tom Coughlin's ass and watching him walk on water.
I'm a TC guy... but this is just stupid  
GloryDayz : 12/18/2014 2:54 pm : link
nothing more to say really
So TC is stuborn, old school  
Watson : 12/18/2014 3:46 pm : link
because he is not rewarding Washington with more game offensive snaps despite the fact he is not performing well in his current roll which for a 4th or 5th WR is ST. Got it.
RE: You think washinton  
vibe4giants : 12/18/2014 3:54 pm : link
In comment 12041617 wash88 said:
Quote:
Will learn from our ST
and WR coach?


^^^^^^^^

Talks of not learning, yet still hasn't mastered either line breaks nor not being a racist.





This can not be right  
NYDCBlue : 12/18/2014 4:00 pm : link
The writer must have misunderstood TC.

Not being good on special teams absolutely will prevent you from getting a uniform on Sundays. You only get to hand out 45 of them, and special teams are 1/3 of the game, but Washington has been dressing the last several weeks, so I fail to see what his special teams play has to do with his play time on offense.

I really think this reporter just was not paying close enough attention to the meaning of Coughlin's words.
RE: This can not be right  
Watson : 12/18/2014 4:32 pm : link
In comment 12041807 NYDCBlue said:
Quote:
The writer must have misunderstood TC.

Not being good on special teams absolutely will prevent you from getting a uniform on Sundays. You only get to hand out 45 of them, and special teams are 1/3 of the game, but Washington has been dressing the last several weeks, so I fail to see what his special teams play has to do with his play time on offense.

I really think this reporter just was not paying close enough attention to the meaning of Coughlin's words.


That's possible, the reporter is Graziano, The Pineapple. However, Washington is currently I believe the 5th WR so either he needs to do better in practice to move up the depth chart or needs to perform better at ST to be rewarded. It sounds like TC is not displeased with his practise at WR but not enough to be promoted. Hence, "he needs to get better at his job" which currently is ST.
RE: Of course the irony is that Coughlin insists of keeping Quinn  
oipolloi : 12/18/2014 4:54 pm : link
In comment 12041010 jeff57 said:
Quote:
as special teams coach. Someone who does more damage to the special teams than anyone else.



Best comment on the whole thread.

Quinn must do a hell of job coaching during practice.
Who gives a crap if Washington is ready to be  
Bill in UT : 12/18/2014 4:59 pm : link
the #3 WR? I just want him to get a chance to do what he did well in preseason, make some TD catches in the red zone. Instead of throwing fades to Randle.
ROFL at these Joe Pa fanatics  
Mason : 12/18/2014 5:06 pm : link
Many of these guys were siding with Coughlin about Cruz's inability to produce on ST as reason why Stokley was the right choice and then rambled how he was "coached up" when he began putting up numbers when Stokley got hurt.
Coughlin is an expert talent evaluator  
cosmicj : 12/18/2014 5:10 pm : link
and he is more than an expert but an absolute authority on WR play, the position he coached early in his NFL career. If he isn't playing Washington, it's because Washington isn't good enough. It's that simple.
Since it's obvious that this coaching staff only plays guys after  
Jupiter : 12/18/2014 5:15 pm : link
they earn their stripes in practice and on specials, why does the FO keep drafting WRs and RBs who never played special teams in college - except as returners - when you can only have max. 2 returners on the field at a time?
Washington is undrafted  
cosmicj : 12/18/2014 5:18 pm : link
I also like another theme running through here, that Randle is so worthless that he should be benched for a UDFA. I think the Randle-hate on BBI is losing its tether with reality.
RE: Who gives a crap if Washington is ready to be  
Watson : 12/18/2014 5:28 pm : link
In comment 12041868 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
the #3 WR? I just want him to get a chance to do what he did well in preseason, make some TD catches in the red zone. Instead of throwing fades to Randle.


For all team sport coaches, it's always a difficult balancing act; giving playing time to developmental players vs being fair to the rest of the team (they want to win). Washington has been given offensive snaps in all but one game. If published stats I've seen are correct, he has had 8 targets with 5 receptions. IIRC one of those balls he could not bring in was a fade in the end zone.
Without reading the whole thread...  
Damon : 12/18/2014 5:30 pm : link
Because the OP is pretty lame...

A couple things...

First, let's not make Washington out to be some sort of star that is being kept off the field... IF he was showing up in practice enough to unseat the guys in front of him... He'd be playing.

Secondly... The inactive list has written itself due to injuries pretty much all season... So I'd bet there were times when he got a shirt by default.

I hope he turns the corner next year and can become a good find for us. But between Donnell, Randle and OBJ we're not devoid of endzone fade candidates. Just coz Washington caught a ton of fades in the preseason against guys presently in the arena league doesn't mean he's the next Victor Cruz.

RE: Washington is undrafted  
Bill in UT : 12/18/2014 5:55 pm : link
In comment 12041893 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I also like another theme running through here, that Randle is so worthless that he should be benched for a UDFA. I think the Randle-hate on BBI is losing its tether with reality.


Cruz was an UDFA. You think Randle is better than him?
Damon agree  
Watson : 12/18/2014 6:03 pm : link
Also should have noted in my post above, Washington was given 20 offensive snaps in the 1st Redskin game. To date the most offensive plays. A game we had well in hand and before OBJ was ready.
Yes the brain trust on BBI is always correct on back up players  
montanagiant : 12/18/2014 7:41 pm : link
I mean they see so much of their daily effort and practice...amaright????
RE: Since it's obvious that this coaching staff only plays guys after  
TMS : 12/19/2014 11:40 am : link
In comment 12041887 Jupiter said:
Quote:
they earn their stripes in practice and on specials, why does the FO keep drafting WRs and RBs who never played special teams in college - except as returners - when you can only have max. 2 returners on the field at a time?
Because the HC is not telling the GM and his assistant who to draft and they do not comprehend team needs only measurables that they can look up.
RE: Put me  
dguy901 : 12/19/2014 12:44 pm : link
In comment 12040961 TMS said:
Quote:
with the half that wants TC to make those decisions based on what he sees in practice and is told my his coaches.
TC and staff have ruined decent players by not teaching and playing them versus less talented vets with game experience. There would be no possible way TC could "not" play a #1 draft pick! Explain why OG Herman has not seen the field yet? During training camp and pre-season all I heard were good things about him. I guarantee he is already better than Jerry and he might be better than Richburg at guard. Moore is a disruption to opposing offenses yet, how many snaps did he get when it could have made the difference? Why hasn't Darkwa relieved Williams or Jennings in a material way, they just keep crying the talent isn't there, they don't have a change of pace RB! JMHO.
The stupidity on this board is maddening  
Modus Operandi : 12/19/2014 2:33 pm : link
Let me pose a simple question..

If Washington hadn't (yet) dedicated or distinguished himself to/on special teams, why should he be entrusted in becoming an integral part of the offense?

The answer is, of course, he should't. But don't let that stand in the way of the good (and predictable) anti-Coughlin rhetoric.

"He doesn't play young players," being one.

RE: After we get steam rolled  
dcable : 12/19/2014 6:04 pm : link
In comment 12040979 phil fromphilly said:
Quote:
the next 2 weeks and everyone gets their pitchforks back out this will be one of the reasons folks want to see TC retire. Sometimes players just don't practice well but know how to ball out come game time. With all of the other injuries at WR this dude should be on the field a whole lot more. Tom needs to get the young guys some reps in this lost season to see who those real gamers are. Didn't we just go through this last year with ownership wondering aloud why some of the young guys didn't see the field more?


Even if we get steamrolled, many here will still want TC retained. This is now a BIG joke!! The problem is simple, some people get older and think their smarter than others. Hence, they become totally stubborn. If the reason is true not allowing Washington to showcase himself, is just one more example why he should be fired
Can we NOT act like TC makes the right decisions 100%  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 12/19/2014 6:35 pm : link
of the time? In 2006 after Petitgout's season-ending injury, Coughlin let Bob "Headbutt" Whitfield start 6 games while Rich Seubert languished on the bench. TC's reasoning was that he didn't want to play Diehl at tackle. Luckily, he changed his mind right before his job was on the line in week 17. Tiki Barber responded with his 234 yard-rushing day and the rest is history.
This is maddening,  
#10* : 12/21/2014 8:12 am : link
If this is true, TC should be confronted and if he doesn't change his stance you have to look for a new coach. Pre-season we lose all those games if Washington doesn't play. Nassib to Washington was the story of the preseason. I don't even think Eli completed 10 passes in those games. By that logic if Cruz sucked at specials we would have never seen the salsa dance.

Wake up call to Coughlin your special teams has never been that good so the person you should bench is your ST's coordinator.
RE: And people keep saying that Gilbride and Fewell  
mrvax : 12/21/2014 9:35 am : link
In comment 12040915 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
are/were the problems for why promising guys don't get PT. But I'm sure half of BBI will come down on TCs side on this, as with everything.


Not so Bill. I rarely hear a poster blame that on anyone but Coughlin. (Right where the blame belongs.)
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