This is subjective and you really don't know if the light comes on for some of these guys down the road and they turn into players. As much grief as Reese gets, there are GM's that have some 'splainin' to do Link - ( New Window )
is the standard evaluation time when it comes to getting a look at your first round quarterback before you need to make the decision about going another direction the very next offseason.
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Can someone summarize briefly...
Dunedin81 : 2:31 pm : link : reply
for those of us who can't access the site?
I'm sure I'm not the only one who would have loved it if
You base this on a one pick comparison when we're not even done with the draft picks' initial season? OK.
But if you are right, then Brady and/or Belichick are way better then Eli and/or Coughlin, given the Patriots superior record.
The Patriots' drafting is overrated and has been for awhile. They have more picks year in and year out than just about anyone, and yet they were playing Julian f-cking Edelman at DB a few years ago because they didn't have enough depth, and they haven't drafted a quality wide receiver in forever. Few teams have done so little with so much. Like Parcells before him, Belichek is a much better gameday coach than he is a personnel guy.
you...everyone talks about quarterbacks being risky picks...but I'd put offensive linemen and safeties right up there.
risk isn't position-dependent. There are booms and busts at every position, there is no position that is necessarily more of a sure shot than another. injuries/lack of motivation/bad scouting can cause a draft pick to exceed or disappoint relative to expectations.
on top of QB, OL and safeties, you can get a barry sanders or ki-jana carter. odell beckham or charles rogers. LT or Aundray Bruce. Rob Gronkowski or Derek Brown. warren sapp or jonathan sullivan.
Essentially, Johnny Football has two more games to audition for the job in 2015. Otherwise, the Browns have to be thinking about how to upgrade at the quarterback position.
Jamie Collins were all good high round picks in recent years. Where Bellichick has screwed up is in the DBs, with the exception of Devin McCourty.
They've had some eggs in there too. Aaron Dobson doesn't look particularly special, and Tavon Wilson hasn't started a game since his rookie season. Jermaine Cunningham, Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Terrence Wheatley, Chad Jackson, and that's just the 2nd round picks or higher.
QBs are risky because if you take a bad QB it can essentially sink the coach or GM and/or just suck for 2-3 years. Blowing a pick at another position doesnt generally have those consequences (unless you mortgaged future drafts to trade up). I dont think it is a statement that QBs are inherently more risky.
I will say that the notion that it is somehow safer to take an OL has been completely blown up. OLs are getting overdrafted like crazy, especially as the rise of stunts and pass rushing LDEs has forced teams to stock talent across the OL rather than just having a good LOT, a mountain at ROT, and three JAGs on the interior. Personally, I've always found non-rush LBs to be the riskiest pick. Their college success is so dependent on coachings/situation/DLs that I'd almost always pass on them early.
Essentially, Johnny Football has two more games to audition for the job in 2015. Otherwise, the Browns have to be thinking about how to upgrade at the quarterback position.
QBs are risky because if you take a bad QB it can essentially sink the coach or GM and/or just suck for 2-3 years. Blowing a pick at another position doesnt generally have those consequences (unless you mortgaged future drafts to trade up). I dont think it is a statement that QBs are inherently more risky.
I will say that the notion that it is somehow safer to take an OL has been completely blown up. OLs are getting overdrafted like crazy, especially as the rise of stunts and pass rushing LDEs has forced teams to stock talent across the OL rather than just having a good LOT, a mountain at ROT, and three JAGs on the interior. Personally, I've always found non-rush LBs to be the riskiest pick. Their college success is so dependent on coachings/situation/DLs that I'd almost always pass on them early.
I'd add that QBs are *riskier* because it's the most important position in the game and teams often reach for guys that otherwise shouldn't be drafted where they are (Gabbert, Ponder, Sanchez, etc)
QBs are risky because if you take a bad QB it can essentially sink the coach or GM and/or just suck for 2-3 years. Blowing a pick at another position doesnt generally have those consequences (unless you mortgaged future drafts to trade up). I dont think it is a statement that QBs are inherently more risky.
I will say that the notion that it is somehow safer to take an OL has been completely blown up. OLs are getting overdrafted like crazy, especially as the rise of stunts and pass rushing LDEs has forced teams to stock talent across the OL rather than just having a good LOT, a mountain at ROT, and three JAGs on the interior. Personally, I've always found non-rush LBs to be the riskiest pick. Their college success is so dependent on coachings/situation/DLs that I'd almost always pass on them early.
Getting the QB pick right is more important than any other position. So if you look at it from that lens, yes taking a QB in the first round, especially early in the first round (top 15) is riskier because the fate of your franchise could very well rest on that decision. however, given how important the QB position is, it's also risky to play a JAG or to wait until the later rounds to draft a QB.
anyone who watched UNC much could guess that Ebron was
I thought Ebron had the highest bust potential after watching him play and trying to figure how he could make an impact as a NFL TE. He was a mis-match to his NCAA competition but not exceptional in any area to warrant a high round pick.
Robinson was the opposite. I thought he would need some time in pass pro to be elite. I didn't figure him to be a detriment to the Rams OL. Like others on this thread have said he has time, but, it is sobering to see him struggle.
Scouting should be farther along now not to be undermined by hype and tilted workouts than mask inadequacies. Ebron was hype whereas Robinson has some internal hurdles to overcome.
I was wrong on both and glad both were gone when the Giants picked. Though Mike Evans will be much better than many on here thought.
The Patriots draft woes are FAR exaggerated. They are not only a good drafting team, but they players Belichick feels he can "coach up" like Donta Hightower or Jamie Collins or Logan Ryan, Chandler Jones, etc. and more often than not he's right.
WR drafting has been a problem for them, but their offense hasn't really struggled due to that.
I was wrong on both and glad both were gone when the Giants picked. Though Mike Evans will be much better than many on here thought.
The Patriots draft woes are FAR exaggerated. They are not only a good drafting team, but they players Belichick feels he can "coach up" like Donta Hightower or Jamie Collins or Logan Ryan, Chandler Jones, etc. and more often than not he's right.
WR drafting has been a problem for them, but their offense hasn't really struggled due to that.
As I pointed out, just using 1st and 2nd round picks, their woes are not overrated. On the contrary, success stories like Mayo and Gronk and Chandler Jones cause people to think that they're actually good at it. As many picks as they've had, having a handful of very good players is to be expected. They have not drafted a serviceable receiver since probably Troy Brown and their DB picks have been pretty terrible, by and large.
include Mayo, Gronk and Chandler Jones or WIlfork and McCourty for that matter?
And if anything they've had less 1st round picks.
Donta Hightower, Jamie Collins, Sebastian Vollmer (all 1st two round picks), who knows what they have in Garroppolo - he looked really good when he's played, and I wouldn't give up on Easley. The Pats like him a lot, and knew he was an injury risk, but didn't "need" him this year.
They probably have as many or more 1st/2nd round contributors (significant contributors) on their team or otherwise successful than the Giants do.
The Patriots have drafted two 2nd round WR's in the past 10 years. It's been poor but they haven't had 1st round busts at the position and in spite of that poor WR track record, like I said, their offense hasn't missed a beat.
anyone can call a rookie disappointing after just 1 year.. I still think Clowney will be the best player out of this group inspite of how good OBJ, Evans, Martin and other have looked..
Also for all those that complian about Reese its not just his draft but FA as well.. Patriots pick up the right players through trade, FA and so on.. We haven't had an impact FA signing in a long time.. Remember the 2007-2008 teams, half of the key players on that team were FA.. Plaxico, Pierce, O'Hara, Kareem.. These guys just weren't starters they were Pro bowlers..
did a study - taking emotion and opinion out of the mix, #1 best drafting team New England Patriots.
I'm not knocking Reese, I don't think he's as bad as some say, but the New England draft struggles written about by some are yes exaggerated. Best drafting teams - ( New Window )
it is flawed but even if it wasn't it snapshots a span in which they drafted reasonably well. As for the wide receivers, the fact that they haven't drafted them high doesn't argue against the point that they haven't drafted well, they have neglected the position and ended up having to overpay for guys like walking concussion Danny Amendola to make up for those deficiencies.
He hasn't help matters with his play and attitude. Wasn't a fan of Ebron at UNC so I will not pile on but BBI draft gurus have been silent on him and the suppose immediate impact.
whatever, I'm not going to change your mind. and I don't care to, I think the Patriots have drafted well, you think they have drafted poorly, we can agree to disagree.
whatever, I'm not going to change your mind. and I don't care to, I think the Patriots have drafted well, you think they have drafted poorly, we can agree to disagree.
You can't win the way the Patriots do without drafting well. Just not possible.
However, I think BB is the master of knowing when to get rid of guys. Look at how he parlayed Richard SEymour into draft picks. Compare that to how the Giants hung on to a broken down Snee and Baas.
Inagine if Giants had traded Snee and/or Baas after the 2011 season. They would have cleared 20 million in cap room and maybe picked up a few picks. 2012-4 would have been much different.
except Seymour is the example I wouldn't use. He was terrific for several years after they traded him and those picks when traced were mostly squandered.
However, Mankins, Moss, Vrabel, McGinest, Branch, Samuel (some traded some just not re-signed) etc. are perfect examples
...with Aaron Donald as my fallback. I hated Ebron and refused to believe that he was on the Giants radar. OBJ wasn't a consideration of mine until his name started popping up in the last couple of weeks before the draft.
Robinson was force to play LT before he was ready. He needed a year or so at LG first. I still think he can turn out to be a good one.
Marcus Smith was the biggest reach in the first round.
Also, I'm sure Reese would have drafted a bunch of those guys had they been available at 12.
Completely agreed. I clicked the link and X'd out. Fuck them.
Dunedin81 : 2:31 pm : link : reply
for those of us who can't access the site?
The Krafts would go wild if they had 20 guys on IR.
You get paid, you must work.
You base this on a one pick comparison when we're not even done with the draft picks' initial season? OK.
But if you are right, then Brady and/or Belichick are way better then Eli and/or Coughlin, given the Patriots superior record.
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:::::: hahaha :::::::::
You base this on a one pick comparison when we're not even done with the draft picks' initial season? OK.
But if you are right, then Brady and/or Belichick are way better then Eli and/or Coughlin, given the Patriots superior record.
The Patriots' drafting is overrated and has been for awhile. They have more picks year in and year out than just about anyone, and yet they were playing Julian f-cking Edelman at DB a few years ago because they didn't have enough depth, and they haven't drafted a quality wide receiver in forever. Few teams have done so little with so much. Like Parcells before him, Belichek is a much better gameday coach than he is a personnel guy.
on top of QB, OL and safeties, you can get a barry sanders or ki-jana carter. odell beckham or charles rogers. LT or Aundray Bruce. Rob Gronkowski or Derek Brown. warren sapp or jonathan sullivan.
They've had some eggs in there too. Aaron Dobson doesn't look particularly special, and Tavon Wilson hasn't started a game since his rookie season. Jermaine Cunningham, Ron Brace, Darius Butler, Terrence Wheatley, Chad Jackson, and that's just the 2nd round picks or higher.
a) I hate those sites that inflate their views.(bleacher report also does this)
b) Peoples expectations for rookies are irrational.
I will say that the notion that it is somehow safer to take an OL has been completely blown up. OLs are getting overdrafted like crazy, especially as the rise of stunts and pass rushing LDEs has forced teams to stock talent across the OL rather than just having a good LOT, a mountain at ROT, and three JAGs on the interior. Personally, I've always found non-rush LBs to be the riskiest pick. Their college success is so dependent on coachings/situation/DLs that I'd almost always pass on them early.
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Essentially, Johnny Football has two more games to audition for the job in 2015. Otherwise, the Browns have to be thinking about how to upgrade at the quarterback position.
*IGNORES*
I will say that the notion that it is somehow safer to take an OL has been completely blown up. OLs are getting overdrafted like crazy, especially as the rise of stunts and pass rushing LDEs has forced teams to stock talent across the OL rather than just having a good LOT, a mountain at ROT, and three JAGs on the interior. Personally, I've always found non-rush LBs to be the riskiest pick. Their college success is so dependent on coachings/situation/DLs that I'd almost always pass on them early.
I'd add that QBs are *riskier* because it's the most important position in the game and teams often reach for guys that otherwise shouldn't be drafted where they are (Gabbert, Ponder, Sanchez, etc)
I will say that the notion that it is somehow safer to take an OL has been completely blown up. OLs are getting overdrafted like crazy, especially as the rise of stunts and pass rushing LDEs has forced teams to stock talent across the OL rather than just having a good LOT, a mountain at ROT, and three JAGs on the interior. Personally, I've always found non-rush LBs to be the riskiest pick. Their college success is so dependent on coachings/situation/DLs that I'd almost always pass on them early.
Getting the QB pick right is more important than any other position. So if you look at it from that lens, yes taking a QB in the first round, especially early in the first round (top 15) is riskier because the fate of your franchise could very well rest on that decision. however, given how important the QB position is, it's also risky to play a JAG or to wait until the later rounds to draft a QB.
Robinson was the opposite. I thought he would need some time in pass pro to be elite. I didn't figure him to be a detriment to the Rams OL. Like others on this thread have said he has time, but, it is sobering to see him struggle.
Scouting should be farther along now not to be undermined by hype and tilted workouts than mask inadequacies. Ebron was hype whereas Robinson has some internal hurdles to overcome.
The Patriots draft woes are FAR exaggerated. They are not only a good drafting team, but they players Belichick feels he can "coach up" like Donta Hightower or Jamie Collins or Logan Ryan, Chandler Jones, etc. and more often than not he's right.
WR drafting has been a problem for them, but their offense hasn't really struggled due to that.
10. Ebron
Matthews
Dennard
Easley
Greg Robinson
Calvin Pryor
Manziel
Dee Ford
Marcus Smith
1. Clowney (biggest bust)
The Patriots draft woes are FAR exaggerated. They are not only a good drafting team, but they players Belichick feels he can "coach up" like Donta Hightower or Jamie Collins or Logan Ryan, Chandler Jones, etc. and more often than not he's right.
WR drafting has been a problem for them, but their offense hasn't really struggled due to that.
As I pointed out, just using 1st and 2nd round picks, their woes are not overrated. On the contrary, success stories like Mayo and Gronk and Chandler Jones cause people to think that they're actually good at it. As many picks as they've had, having a handful of very good players is to be expected. They have not drafted a serviceable receiver since probably Troy Brown and their DB picks have been pretty terrible, by and large.
And if anything they've had less 1st round picks.
Donta Hightower, Jamie Collins, Sebastian Vollmer (all 1st two round picks), who knows what they have in Garroppolo - he looked really good when he's played, and I wouldn't give up on Easley. The Pats like him a lot, and knew he was an injury risk, but didn't "need" him this year.
They probably have as many or more 1st/2nd round contributors (significant contributors) on their team or otherwise successful than the Giants do.
The Patriots have drafted two 2nd round WR's in the past 10 years. It's been poor but they haven't had 1st round busts at the position and in spite of that poor WR track record, like I said, their offense hasn't missed a beat.
Also for all those that complian about Reese its not just his draft but FA as well.. Patriots pick up the right players through trade, FA and so on.. We haven't had an impact FA signing in a long time.. Remember the 2007-2008 teams, half of the key players on that team were FA.. Plaxico, Pierce, O'Hara, Kareem.. These guys just weren't starters they were Pro bowlers..
I'm not knocking Reese, I don't think he's as bad as some say, but the New England draft struggles written about by some are yes exaggerated.
Best drafting teams - ( New Window )
But interesting to see that the Giants were 12th from 2009-13.
whatever, I'm not going to change your mind. and I don't care to, I think the Patriots have drafted well, you think they have drafted poorly, we can agree to disagree.
Matthews has played hurt all year. He's going to be a good one.
Look how freegin' big Jake Matthews is in that picture of him standing next to a few humans.
It's waaaaay too soon to be criticizing Manziel.
I liked Aaron Donald over Jadeveon Clowney prior to the draft. Clowney looked like a risky player then and more so now.
whatever, I'm not going to change your mind. and I don't care to, I think the Patriots have drafted well, you think they have drafted poorly, we can agree to disagree.
You can't win the way the Patriots do without drafting well. Just not possible.
However, I think BB is the master of knowing when to get rid of guys. Look at how he parlayed Richard SEymour into draft picks. Compare that to how the Giants hung on to a broken down Snee and Baas.
Inagine if Giants had traded Snee and/or Baas after the 2011 season. They would have cleared 20 million in cap room and maybe picked up a few picks. 2012-4 would have been much different.
However, Mankins, Moss, Vrabel, McGinest, Branch, Samuel (some traded some just not re-signed) etc. are perfect examples