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Are the Giants really so far from contention?

Beezer : 12/18/2014 7:41 pm
It seems dreary right now, but it's good to see that a couple wins allow some optimism, even if it's limited.

Looking back across the schedule, with a few plays here or there, we're 9-5 heading into a key game this weekend. The loss to Arizona was one that got away, and was winnable. Four OTHER losses were by a total of 20 points (including the 31-21 loss to Dallas). The other Dallas game, the 25-24 shit show and the San Fran game, asll could have been wins with a play or two, or player or two.

I'm an eternal optimist. Going draft heavy on O and D lines, as well as LB, and the luck of the draw with injuries, this club really should be back in the thick of it a year from now.

if  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/18/2014 7:46 pm : link
Beckham tore his ACL, where would this team be?
They aren't a dumpster fire team  
Ben in Tampa : 12/18/2014 7:48 pm : link
But they aren't competitive with the real contenders
Bad teams find a way to  
Bill in UT : 12/18/2014 7:52 pm : link
lose games that are winnable.
About 29 hours.  
shepherdsam : 12/18/2014 7:57 pm : link
.
28 without traffic! - ( New Window )
RE: About 29 hours.  
chris r : 12/18/2014 7:58 pm : link
In comment 12042028 shepherdsam said:
Quote:
. 28 without traffic! - ( New Window )


lulz
Eric  
Emil : 12/18/2014 8:00 pm : link
Please tell me you knocked on wood after that. I'm a little stitious.

You are right though. This good feeling so many of us have had is all because of the breakout of Beckham. I think though that a lot of teams that are on the cusp can say similar things. Where would the Broncos be without Peyton, where would the Chiefs be without Jamal Charles, and where would the Cowboys be without Demarco Murray. I do think we as fans tend to get a bit too excited when the Giants win two in a row and a little too suicidal when they lose, but I do think this team has a lot of positives (some key negatives) but as long as Eli has rebounded and he has targets to throw to, there is something to build around.

Offseason 2015 has to be about shoring up the lines, and finding athletes in the back seven of the defense. Lots to do, but Manning to Beckham Jr will make up for a lot of short comings.
a few steps away  
hitdog42 : 12/18/2014 8:03 pm : link
1) new D coord
2) New RT and C
3) 2nd good DT
4) Another safety
5) a MLB
6) Resign JPP
7) Somewhat healthy Cruz
8) Jennings to stay healthy
9) Healthy/durable corners

So just a few things away...
This is a bad team.  
Red Dog : 12/18/2014 8:07 pm : link
Many, many needs. They can't stay on the field for 60 minutes with any of the real contenders.

Hell, they can't stay on the field for 60 minutes with some of the pretenders, either.

How can you blow a 21 point halftime lead to the effing Jaguars and think you have anything resembling a quality team?

How can you lose the stats war to the Redskins all the time? Hint - they would not have won that last Redskins game without the officials overturning the RG III TD.

I could go on but I won't. The GIANTS are not close to being a good team.
RE: This is a bad team.  
BillT : 12/18/2014 8:10 pm : link
In comment 12042038 Red Dog said:
Quote:

The GIANTS are not close to being a good team.


Yes, this 2014 team is a bad team.

No, the Giants with their 22 guys back from IR aren't that far from being a good team.
That's the thing  
AnishPatel : 12/18/2014 8:10 pm : link
we are not a good team so we found ways to shoot ourselves in the foot. Good teams don't do that. You bring up the Arizona game. Why couldn't we be aggressive as we are now against Stanton? How the hell does Jennings fumble with no one around him? That's god awful.

Just stupid shit we managed to do all year long. I believe we are 2-3 years away.
this  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/18/2014 8:18 pm : link
team can't get a yard on 3rd-and-1. We have no idea if Cruz will be back anywhere near his previous form. It's the Eli and Beckham show on offense right now and not much else. Our two top TE's are an undrafted collegiate QB and a guy who was out of football. We can't run the ball.

Defensively, what if JPP leaves in free agency? Who do we have at LB other than Kennard, who our DC just said is a 'tweener. Rolle is fading and we don't have much at safety.
RE: this  
BillT : 12/18/2014 8:22 pm : link
In comment 12042050 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
team can't get a yard on 3rd-and-1.


This team with probably it's best OL on IR, starting a rookie out of position and their RT banged up for a good part of the year can't get a yard on 3rd-and-1.
RE: this  
AnishPatel : 12/18/2014 8:26 pm : link
In comment 12042050 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
team can't get a yard on 3rd-and-1. We have no idea if Cruz will be back anywhere near his previous form. It's the Eli and Beckham show on offense right now and not much else. Our two top TE's are an undrafted collegiate QB and a guy who was out of football. We can't run the ball.

Defensively, what if JPP leaves in free agency? Who do we have at LB other than Kennard, who our DC just said is a 'tweener. Rolle is fading and we don't have much at safety.


It would be nice if we actually do something different than run the ball every damn time. I am still waiting we move the pocket or go play action and throw it. How many times are we going to be stubborn and run the ball? Our offensive line isn't good.
A lights out FA  
old man : 12/18/2014 8:27 pm : link
offseason, and bang up draft, no.
Reality: 2 good (not even needing to be great) FA offseason signings, and drafts as well, yes.
2-3 years away . . .  
dancing blue bear : 12/18/2014 8:27 pm : link
from being a legit title contender. i would concede that. but with a good offseason (draft/FA) and some good luck with health, i don't see why this team should not be in the playoff mix next year. a legit playoff contender.

Once you get in the dance, Eli (and JPP and cruz) have proven they can play in big games. I have very little doubt that ODB is a big game player, too.

I am a cock-eyed optimist, tho.

I think Eli makes dramatic improvement between year 1 and 2. He seems to be that kind of guy. I think Macadoo will self correct and learn a lot, as well.

The real ?'sare health, and what kind of improvement the young guys make (particularly pugh and Richberg). If we sure up the line, i think this O can score plenty of points.

I would love to see a new DC. I think the D has some talent, and has not played up to it. Ever under PF
As far away as Molly Pan  
Headhunter : 12/18/2014 8:28 pm : link
is from an Oscar
ERic in Debbie Downer Mode. lol  
Beezer : 12/18/2014 8:31 pm : link
The draft is key. Injuries killed us this year, as well.

Curious, the two mopst recent SB years, weren't the Giants ridiculously low on the NFL's "key injury" ranking?

Kennard seems to be a player, despite what someone wants to call him.

Moore will be into his third season, and the talent appears to be there. The optimist says he'll flick the switch, regardless of JPP re-signing or going.

One top O-lineman, maybe a S with the second pick, FAs at LB and DL, hoping for Cruz's healthy return, and maybe something could develop at TE, either through the draft (later rounds) or a vet signing ...

Ya never know.
They won the last Super Bowl  
section125 : 12/18/2014 8:37 pm : link
with a team that had trouble rushing for 3rd and 1. The line hasn't been a running line for about 3 years.

They are not near the Seahawks, Cards, Eagles, Packers and that doesn't include the AFC.

But Two Oline, Cruz back, Beason back, a safety or two...

meh, their not that close to being a real contender.

A playoff team? That is another story.
Good teams...  
bob16 : 12/18/2014 8:39 pm : link
find a way to make that one play that turns a game. Bad teams don't.

Hey, look at those two recent Super Bowls - one play turned each game and a "good" Giants team came through.

I repeat - bad teams don't make that one play.
not since the emergence of OBJ  
oipolloi : 12/18/2014 8:47 pm : link
funny how adding a superstar changes things

RE: They won the last Super Bowl  
BillT : 12/18/2014 8:50 pm : link
In comment 12042077 section125 said:
Quote:


But Two Oline, Cruz back, Beason back, a safety or two...


They're as good as the Eagles. The others, well...
Breezer  
JOrthman : 12/18/2014 8:50 pm : link
I actually agree with your premise and don't think we are far off, but good luck trying to convince the eternal pessimists of BBI of that.
I don't think they are that far off  
WeatherMan : 12/18/2014 8:53 pm : link
but not because this team is good, rather because the quality of play league wide has declined. Dallas is one of the least impressive 10 win teams I've ever seen.
so we beat the Titans and the Redskins and now  
Jints in Carolina : 12/18/2014 9:05 pm : link
we're not oo far off?
RE: this  
Emil : 12/18/2014 9:08 pm : link
In comment 12042050 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
team can't get a yard on 3rd-and-1. We have no idea if Cruz will be back anywhere near his previous form. It's the Eli and Beckham show on offense right now and not much else. Our two top TE's are an undrafted collegiate QB and a guy who was out of football. We can't run the ball.

Defensively, what if JPP leaves in free agency? Who do we have at LB other than Kennard, who our DC just said is a 'tweener. Rolle is fading and we don't have much at safety.


You're right on all of the above. The lack of ability to get a yard is a glaring weakness. Donnell has been a surprise, but I'm not convinced he is the answer. Part of the answer, but not THE answer. However, these issues are not that hard to fix. I think the OL is a Guard away, and Reese needs to throw more money and resources at the TE position.

We all hope the best for Cruz, but I think there needs to be insurance brought in. Torry Smith from Baltimore makes a lot of sense to me.
This team is very far away  
Earl the goat : 12/18/2014 9:16 pm : link
There is no team speed other than Odell

Coughlin refuses to play the youngsters

BPA in this years draft should not come into play. It should be franchise left tackle all the way.

Free agency with all the cap room there is SUH and resign JPP

Give Cory Washington a serious look in the last two games. He could be a diamond in the rough especially if Cruz doesn't come back
We need some new coaching blood  
gtt350 : 12/18/2014 9:17 pm : link
.
There is no franchise LT in this draft  
Headhunter : 12/18/2014 9:20 pm : link
There is no franchise QB in this Draft. Some underclassman may emerge, but as of today, close but no cigar
This is the parity NFL  
KeoweeFan : 12/18/2014 9:30 pm : link
How many "bottom to top" teams have we seen in the last few years?
Is this going to be a team who is favored preseason to be a Super Bowl winner? Of course not.
But is it out of the question that we can pull an Atlanta (or hopefully a lot better) and find ourselves, with the famous Giant streaks, in contention at season end?
You betcha. Put Tom in charge of team cohesiveness, Ben in charge of offensive philosophy (never the twain shall meet), a new DC, a decent draft, and we're right in it.
A new Defense Coordinator and schemes is Number One.  
Zebra3 : 12/18/2014 9:40 pm : link
Play to the strengths of your players. We are at least a year away.
Have to hit on two workable Olinemen in draft and FA. Defense has players just needs a few leaders.
Next year is another rebuild, Year after is start of Mac Adoo era.
Above all else  
Emil : 12/18/2014 9:40 pm : link
I want an aggressive minded DC. Defense can still matter in the NFL if you force the offense to play on your terms. Attack!
Oh....  
Emlen'sGremlins : 12/18/2014 9:47 pm : link
Dream Weaver....
RE: this  
Zebra3 : 12/18/2014 9:51 pm : link
In comment 12042050 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
team can't get a yard on 3rd-and-1. We have no idea if Cruz will be back anywhere near his previous form. It's the Eli and Beckham show on offense right now and not much else. Our two top TE's are an undrafted collegiate QB and a guy who was out of football. We can't run the ball.

Defensively, what if JPP leaves in free agency? Who do we have at LB other than Kennard, who our DC just said is a 'tweener. Rolle is fading and we don't have much at safety.

Two good Cbs in DRC And Prince.
Don't count Taylor out Berhe needs to develope we had less secondary in both Super Bowl runs. Wilson,mcQuarters,Webster,
Hankins,Moore Ayers,Wynn Bromley resign JPP. It's not Strahan Osi and Tuck or is it with the right DC?
Kennard add another Lb in the draft and one in FA to add to McClain and again a different DC and you have a good Defense. Next DC is going to look good fast.
Our major hole is still rebuilding the line. Reese has to hit on two OL in draft or FA.
We have one single offensive weapon worth a damn and will likely only  
Riggies : 12/18/2014 9:57 pm : link
be returning two or three defensive players worth one, with only Hankins having high end potential. There are OL issues, specifically on the interior. The roster is basically a bunch of JAGs, but the worst kind: the kind that can often be mediocre enough to prevent a real tear down and the best possible draft picks, while not being anywhere near good enough to actually compete.

If Reese is capable and things break right, it is at least two to three more years in all likelihood before this team would be a real threat... And by then our QB would likely be a starting to be a problem, given his age, and they'd be screwed from a different side.

This team is at an awful spot/crossroads right now, where few directions to take are going to end up yielding fruitful results.
Ad both Thomas  
Zebra3 : 12/18/2014 9:58 pm : link
From Denver and you have a great offense.
just a  
wash88 : 12/18/2014 10:00 pm : link
Good HC away...we lost 4 or
5 games to bad coaching. ..
partly Elis fault which may
have been corrected by better
playcalling.Macadoo isn't
ready to be HC so that will
force Mara to keep TC.

Eric  
wash88 : 12/18/2014 10:06 pm : link
That's why its easier to get
new coach now than get all new
players. One who will bring
in good position coaches.
Eli won't be good in this system
cause he isn't mobile .
This is a real mess. Mara has
to get rid of TC or it gets worse.
I agree with Eric..  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/18/2014 10:17 pm : link
and said something similar about a week ago. One injury from OBJ away from having the worst offense in the league (or close to it).

Defense cannot compete with the better teams in the league.

So yes..we are VERY far from contention. You want to say that we won the SB just a few years ago and how bad can we really be? Well, look at who is still on the roster from the last SB team. Then consider that whoever is left is not what they used to be. The only player who you can rely on from the last SB team is Eli. After that, NOBODY else other than the kickers.
So if NE loses Brady  
Headhunter : 12/18/2014 10:19 pm : link
how many games do they win?
RE: Eric  
Zebra3 : 12/18/2014 10:21 pm : link
In comment 12042186 wash88 said:
Quote:

Eli won't be good in this system
cause he isn't mobile .
.

Eli loves this offense or Mac would be gone,he doesn't have to be moble this system is set up to get the ball out of the QB hands fast.
It's TC who is demanding balance and clock killing. Watch first Wash game that was the O Mac wanted to run. Eli best feature is he can read defenses and throw the ball if protected. That's what the new Offense does. Now he needs weapons. And time to throw.
RE: So if NE loses Brady  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/18/2014 10:23 pm : link
In comment 12042204 Headhunter said:
Quote:
how many games do they win?


No doubt fewer, but they still win more than 5 games. It is also not the same comparison OBJ vs a QB. If we lost Eli we would be done too.
No they  
Headhunter : 12/18/2014 10:24 pm : link
wouldnt
How many games the Colts win  
Headhunter : 12/18/2014 10:25 pm : link
without Luck? San Diego without Rivers?
They probably get around .500, just subtracting him from the start.  
Riggies : 12/18/2014 10:28 pm : link
Bare minimum better than the Giants are going to be even with their QB hopefully healthy enough to play all the games.

Tom is an all time great QB, but Belichick and all that he touches/controls is what drives that organization's success and maintains it.
So most teams are  
Headhunter : 12/18/2014 10:33 pm : link
like the Eagles minus Foles
Well,  
Doomster : 12/18/2014 10:34 pm : link
So if NE loses Brady
Headhunter : 10:19 pm : link : reply
how many games do they win?

Way more than if the Giants lose Eli....
Most teams have 1-2 players that  
Headhunter : 12/18/2014 10:35 pm : link
if injured takes the team from Playoff status to also rans
I'll play GM  
Zebra3 : 12/18/2014 10:41 pm : link
In FA I add
Both Thomas from Denver WR and TE
OBJ Cruz Thomas Randle Washington
TE Thomas Donell Draft pick
In FA I sign Brian Bulaga from GB
Beatty Pugh Richberg Schwartz Bulaga Peat
Jennings Williams Draft pick Hynoski
Eli Nasib
A new DC say Spags
JPP moves to RDE Bromley Hankins Moore
Ayers Wynn draft pick
Kennard Williams McClain FA draft pick
Prince DRC Taylor Berhe McBride Rolle(reasonable price) draft pick
2 years away.
Health and Good Judgment  
SGMen : 12/18/2014 10:50 pm : link
We start the season with Schwartz at OG and FS Will Hill, and take rookie OBJ at #3 wideout healthy, we are a playoff team.

My opinion.
people are not taking in consideration  
micky : 12/18/2014 11:01 pm : link
The quality of depth that's lacking on this team, basically because of the bad drafts of past years. You're looking at pieces for starters as being a few pieces. However, as injuries are to this team year in year out, the depth plays a major role of how good or far off they are from contentions. Depth don't have to be exceptional but able to hold forte when injuries occur, which for most part hasn't here lately.
depth players play roles in aspect of ST's  
micky : 12/18/2014 11:04 pm : link
As well, which plays a role in whether winning or losing games..look at Philly this year..so its not just starters
RE: if  
Giants2012 : 12/18/2014 11:12 pm : link
In comment 12042015 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Beckham tore his ACL, where would this team be?


or if Eli get really injured unlike dodging that bullet to close out 2013 against the Skins when his ankle almost snapped.
RE: if  
B in ALB : 12/18/2014 11:15 pm : link
In comment 12042015 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Beckham tore his ACL, where would this team be?


Good lord. What if Eli tore his Achilles?

What if Beatty blew out his knee?

What if the entire defensive line was inured in a horrible bowling accident?

What if a flaming leprechaun came hurtling out of the sky and crashed into the owners box causing a chain reaction of events causing the upper deck to fall on the entire team? OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOODDDDDDDDD!!!!

Everyone needs to settle down a bit and relax.

This team is some personnel changes and confidence away from being in the mix.

Uh uh uh, but what if the Jersey Devil decides to attack Beckham while he's trying to buy a Creamsickle from the local ice cream man?

Oh my lawd! No no no! Don't say that B!
Even with all 22 guys on IR back healthy, this is still a bad team.  
Red Dog : 12/18/2014 11:16 pm : link
Sorry to rain on your parade, but this team would still stink with all those guys back. Some of them are injury prone and would just get hurt again real quick and a lot of them really aren't very good anyway.
I think we're a long way from contention as well  
dpinzow : 12/18/2014 11:24 pm : link
but a win in Week 17 will change my opinion slightly

We need:

At least 2 OL (a starting LG and a versatile Boothe-type as a reserve)
Another WR opposite Odell, even if Cruz returns, and definitely if he doesn't
At least 1 DE, 2 if JPP leaves (and we'll have to draft DE in the 1st round if JPP leaves)
At least one starting DT
At least 2 LBs, and the positions are dependent on where they play Kennard. If they give Kennard the playcalling helmet next year it'll be 2 OLBs
A FS if Rolle leaves
A SS, but hopefully Cooper Taylor is finally healthy
Rain on my parade?  
Headhunter : 12/18/2014 11:32 pm : link
Who are you?
hard to tell  
feelflows : 12/18/2014 11:38 pm : link
Personnel wise on defense because the schemes and coaching have been atrocious.

Under performing players may very well be result of shitty play calls. Does kiwi suck, or is he the end result of poor schemes.

I personally have no clue, but I hope Reese does. Cutting players who may thrive under better coaching would be a major setback
A couple of OL upgrades will do wonders for the entire team.  
bceagle05 : 12/18/2014 11:44 pm : link
Hard to even know what we have until we get that issue resolved.
There's a lot of variables  
David in LA : 12/19/2014 12:03 am : link
Is Cruz going to be close to the same player he was before he blew out his knee? Can Pugh re-establish himself at RT or is his future at LG? Can we rely on Schwartz staying healthy or is he the new David Baas? Will JPP price himself out of our range, or do we need to look at a cheaper option? What are we going to do with Rolle? Will we cut bait with Beason and go with Kennard?

There's a ton of questions we need to answer. Reese and Coughlin will both have their work cut out for them. If it were up to me, I would cover my bases with Cruz and draft a WR, he does not necessarily have to be Amari Cooper, we might get a decent prospect in round 2 or 3. I would also pay JPP $12m per so we don't have another void to fill. I'd also move Pugh to LG, slide Richburg to his natural position, cut bait with Walton, keep Schwartz at RG, and target Bulaga in FA. Really tough to cut bait with Beason, I'd still roll with him with the starter, but have Kennard start strong side and learn MLB just incase Beason goes down again. We'll see what Rolle wants, but I'd hate to go in and have another void, but I think Cooper Taylor and Berhe have some promise. We really need to use this draft to get an impact player with our 1st and use the rest of the draft to really shore up our depth.
So this is how I'd fill the holes (long post)  
dpinzow : 12/19/2014 12:21 am : link
With no adjustments we are estimated to have $17MM in cap room, but we can expand that significantly

Kiwi ($7.45MM cap hit for 2015). If we give him the gold watch treatment we save $4.825MM but we eat $2.625MM in dead money. So they could cut him and they'd take a small hit this year

Beason ($7.366MM cap hit for 2015). He's got 2 years left and they could cut him after June 1 but they would eat dead money as well. So I think they keep him but restructure him to push the money back to 2016. They could save $2MM in 2015 with a restructure most likely

Walton ($3.125MM cap hit for 2015). Cutting him adds 625K to the dead money pile but saves $2.5MM

Jenkins ($2.917MM cap hit for 2015). Cutting him adds 667K to the dead money pile but saves $2.25MM

Wilson ($2.127MM cap hit for 2015). He's retired so that is treated like a released player. Wilson is eligible for half of his 2015 salary even if the Giants cut him due to injury while on the job (NFLPA). Therefore I believe the Giants would eat $1.4MM instead of the $825K that Over the Cap says they would and save only $650K or so.

Hillis ($945K cap hit for 2015). I think he retires due to the concussions; if he does the Giants take on no dead money and save the $945K

Hosley ($796K cap hit for 2015). They'll cut him; the Giants take on $129K in dead money and save $668K

All those moves leave us with $30 million in cap space...that's a lot to fix the team up

The first and most important thing to do is extend Eli. He can still play at a high level and going without a QB in the NFL is suicide. Eli's cap hit for next year is $19.75MM. So a good extension will lower that cap # significantly in 2015 and put off the costs for later. So a 5 year, $90MM deal, with $25MM guaranteed and most of the money backloaded for 2016-2019 will work. In the first year Eli's cap hit is only $10.75MM so that gives us an extra $9MM to work with, which puts us up to $40MM and that money goes to...

JPP. The Giants MUST sign him back; not doing so sends a sign to the rest of the younger players that the Giants don't value them. I think JPP can be signed back for 5 years at $61MM with $19MM guaranteed and a $10MM signing bonus. Make his entire first two years guaranteed so you can backload the deal. JPP's cap hit would be around $11MM in the first year, so we have $29MM left in cap room.

I would part ways with Rolle and bring in Devin McCourty at FS at around $8MM per year, which is about what Rolle costs us now. Backload it a little so it costs $6MM for the first year and we'll be down to $23MM in cap room.

Then I'd sign Orlando Franklin. He'll be the 2nd most highly paid left guard on the market. I'd try to backload the contract which would be about 5 years for $30MM so the first year only costs about $4MM against the cap. We'll have $19MM in cap left which gives us a decent chance to sign SUH.

The Giants are going to be in a fantastic cap position for next year so I think they go all out to give Eli another shot at the Bowl
As for the draft if Amari is not there when we pick I trade down  
dpinzow : 12/19/2014 12:46 am : link
I would see if we can give Cleveland our first round pick and our 2nd for their #1s (works out pretty close on the draft value formula). Then we'd have 2 middle 1st round picks where we can go OT (La'el Collins) and LB (Benardrick McKinney) and knock out two birds with one stone
re  
diable : 12/19/2014 1:08 am : link
Can't compete if your team is leading the league in injuries.

Here's a what if scenario. Look at the 86 Giants, they were amazing top to bottom. Now put 20 random players on IR. What kind of season would they have?
They need to rebuild both Lines  
BigBlueCane : 12/19/2014 4:27 am : link
Secondary and WR's are irrelevant at this point.

Both OL and DL must be re-stocked if this team is to have any chance.

The problem is we have a front office that doesn't seem to understand that you have to do so and instead prefers to waste picks on guys who can run real fast and/or jump really far or high.
The W-L  
RetroJint : 12/19/2014 6:51 am : link
won't reflect it, but they got better talent-wise this season. I think they can contend if they have a solid off-season. Charles is correct about Reese, however. He's the anti-GY in the sense that he can find great wide receivers but struggles with linemen & linebackers.
RE: so we beat the Titans and the Redskins and now  
Beezer : 12/19/2014 8:34 am : link
In comment 12042111 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
we're not oo far off?


Not completely the premise. Overall, looking at a handful of the losses, as I mentioned, those games are a couple healthy players and a play or two away from flip-flopping to W's.

The two recent Super Bowl winning teams, few gave the Giants a shot. Were they playoff teams, or contenders?

If we've learned anything, it should be that just making the playoffs makes you a contender.
Some of you are the deffinition of pessimism  
JOrthman : 12/19/2014 8:46 am : link
What if this player was injured or what if that player was injured....

I look at it this way. We have 22 guys on IR, we have one WR worth a damn, our line sucks and our D can be erratic and we were competitive in just about every game we played. The Eagles game and the Detroit game were the only two where we really looked as bad as some are describing. Outside of those two we were a play or a bounce here and there away from a win.

Many of you were sucking off Dallas all year and we choked both of those games away. We were in both of those games despite all our warts.
They are FAAAAR away. The defense is atrocious. JPP  
Victor in CT : 12/19/2014 8:57 am : link
is their best player, but he is not a game wrecker and may be gone. Hankins is a player. Who do the have after that? Kennard maybe? That's at best 2 real players on the front 7. Moore is still a maybe. They have no safeties. Rolle is on the downside and should not be given a big contract. The rest are journeyman quality or unproven low round draft picks. Prince and DRC are a nice combo if they can stay healthy

Offense is Eli, Beckham and? I think Williams is a good back, but he (nor anyone else) is going to gain consistent yardage behind that shit show OL. Can Jennings stay healthy enough to make an effective combo? Will Cruz be the same? Is Randle JAG or worse? They have to get better, bigger and meaner up front. Reese tends to acquire soft type OLs. Beatty is avg, and soft. Hopefully Richburg is the answer at C, Pugh at RT or LG. Schwartz has to play RG. But they need a big, mean OL desperately. Peat would be great if that SI mock somehow comes true.

Bottom line: Until they dramatically improve on both lines and at LB they are going nowhere.
i think for the giants to contend next year  
Les in TO : 12/19/2014 9:02 am : link
the giants need to have a free agent season like they did before the 2000 season to truly be in contention. that year we signed the following players from other teams: Michael Barrow Lomas Brown Glenn Parker Dave Thomas, Jason Garrett and Dusty Zeigler

Barrow and thomas were solid contributors on defense and brown/parker/ziegler immediately shored up the shaky offensive line.

This offseason is key - aside from any potential head or coordinator coaching changes, we need to invest in fixing our offensive line, add a linebacker and defensive end depth.

The theories  
Doomster : 12/19/2014 9:06 am : link
that we are only a few players away, or that you can flip a team quickly in the NFL, are just that, theories...

We saw a 6-2 Giant team, lose 4 in a row, then beat Dallas in Dallas, and then the next week not show up for Washington, and were on the verge of losing another game the following week to the Jets, when all of a sudden the "Cruz Play" turn the season around......seasons like this happen, once, in one's lifetime.....so referencing that this could happen again, is somewhat futile...

Few players away? Problem is, you think you are only a few away, because you over rate what you presently have, and end up needing more than a few....but the main fault in that reasoning is, you think that this front office can hit a home run on every free agent selection and every draft pick, and yet it was their selection of the present players that put us in this hole, in the first place....

As for rationalizing, that some of those games we lost, we could have won, comes with the caveat, that, some of the games we won, we could have lost.....think we win the Houston game, if a healthy Arian Foster was in that game? Rewatching the Washington game, if RGIII doesn't fumble, it's 17-7 at the half.....the Giants do not kick off from the Washington 35, and probably don't try an onside kick.....Eli got away with two throws that should have been picks....it works both ways....

It's not about the Giants becoming SB contenders.....it's about this team, first regaining respectability.....it's about this team showing up for games every week, and opposing teams looking at their schedules, seeing they are playing the NY Football Giants, and not automatically putting a "W" on that game.....

This team has to learn to play with the big boys again.....it hasn't defeated a team with a winning record in almost 3 seasons.....

I think TC returns...ownership does not want to blow this team up and start over.....but I also think it's a mandate, that PF does not.....we have seen the same defensive lapses year after year, even committed by vets, and not just rookies.....PF has forced players to play his scheme, sacrificing their talents in other aspects of their game....

PF doesn't dial it up....his defenses feed on other teams making mistakes...that's his basic philosophy.....but....good teams don't make mistakes...that's why he can't stop good teams....outside of a miraculous 6 games stretch, when the planets were all aligned, and every Giant fan went to sleep with their fingers crossed, when has a PF defense been consistent?

You have to be lucky.....we were lucky a talent like OBj fell to us when we picked....you can't sign free agents that spend the season on IR.....you can't draft players with potential, you draft players who show they can play....you can't coach using a formula that is outdated.....the NFL has changed.....

If we are lucky, with a healthy Eli, this team can become respectable again, and possibly get to the big dance in a few years.....if we are not, this team can create more problems than it fixes.....only time will tell.....



don't forget  
Chip : 12/19/2014 9:20 am : link
That football is a game of injuries. The teams that are healthy at the end of the year do well like Dallas this year. The Giants have money to spend in 2015 and 2016 (almost 100 mil under the cap in 16).
I believe if Beckham Prince Thurmond Schwartz Cruz and Beason were healthy for the whole season they would be in the playoff hunt. Just cutting players to create cap space is all well in good until you have to outbid others for free agents who there current teams don't want. They have to figure out Eli at some point and I would think sooner than later. What I would also say is that Rolle and Kiwanuka play every week and have been able to stay away from injuries.
"I believe if Beckham Prince Thurmond Schwartz Cruz and Beason"  
Victor in CT : 12/19/2014 9:34 am : link
Chip: you really think ALL of these guys will be healthy all season? Beason hasn't been healthy in YEARS. How can you even think of counting on him. Prince has missed significant time in 2 of his 3 years. Schwartz missed the whole year for all intents and purposes. Cruz is coming off a major knee injury. And of the 20 players on IR, I doubt more than 3 would have been starters on other teams.
RE: Breezer  
billyboy26 : 12/19/2014 9:41 am : link
If you have a good coach, and a franchise QB, you are never far off. Look at Luck, and the Colts. One win the year before him. next year, playoffs.

If we fortify the lines, we are a contender for the playoffs. I believe that
defense is awful, but the offense is beginning to show signs  
JonC : 12/19/2014 9:44 am : link
The 2013 team was worse than the 2014 team, last year they were historically inept very often. Incredibly difficult to watch they were so historically bad, and got fat on bad teams playing 2nd/3rd string QBs against us.

A lot of the problems on defense were due to injuries in the secondary, but the front seven needs an offseason of investment similar to how they approached last offseason with the offense.

Time to replace Fewell, and spend some money (in smarter fashion) on defense.

Last season was a 3-4 win team in terms of talent, this team would've won 7-9 games if it had been reasonably healthy.
as for contention  
JonC : 12/19/2014 9:50 am : link
yes, this team is probably two solid offseasons of talent infusion and rebuilding the defense away from being in position to consider contention.

Imo, their approach to the OL isn't complete until they upgrade RT. Pugh was overdrafted imo and they can do better at RT. They're drafting smart OL, but they need some power and size to re-establish the OL.

They also need to invest in the DL. They're losing the trench battle almost weekly, they must infuse both. We're suddenly ordinary at DE, which I pointed out two years would probably happen, and they're relying on stopgaps to round out the DT and LB positions. Kennard's a keeper, but he's going to be rushing from the edge, which means they need to decide on MIKE and add talent at S.

question is....  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 12/19/2014 9:59 am : link
with some creative extensions we can up near 30mil in cap space or more...

Do we trust Reese with that money?
RE: don't forget  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/19/2014 10:03 am : link
In comment 12042487 Chip said:
Quote:
That football is a game of injuries. The teams that are healthy at the end of the year do well like Dallas this year. The Giants have money to spend in 2015 and 2016 (almost 100 mil under the cap in 16).
I believe if Beckham Prince Thurmond Schwartz Cruz and Beason were healthy for the whole season they would be in the playoff hunt. Just cutting players to create cap space is all well in good until you have to outbid others for free agents who there current teams don't want. They have to figure out Eli at some point and I would think sooner than later. What I would also say is that Rolle and Kiwanuka play every week and have been able to stay away from injuries.


Are you suggesting the Giants would have been a 10 win team if they had those injured players healthy?

Many of us on here before the season began thought the team would go 8-8 at best even all things being on the level due to our talent not being on par with most of the NFC.
Pessimism is easy, and is for the WEAK MINDED.  
x meadowlander : 12/19/2014 10:05 am : link
That's right. You are WEAK MINDED pessimists. :D

Here is the STRONG MINDED OPTIMISTIC TRUTH.

It comes down to OL, first and foremost.

SB46 showed that Eli Manning can win Superbowls with an average team.

So these Giants are NOT as far away as some think.

And this team does NOT hinge on Beckham.

It hinges on Eli Manning. Specifically, 'CONFIDENT' Eli, not his arch-nemesis 'Unconfident' Eli.

The OL is the most critical part of the team. If Eli has protection, he has confidence. And when he has confidence, Eli Manning is as good as any 4th quarter QB in the history of the game. Holds the record for 4th quarter comebacks in a single season. Part of that is because he had a SUCKY team that year. But he was confident in the pocket, and broke JOHN UNITAS's record. A confident Eli Manning won those 2 superbowls, not the DL, not the running backs.

Some people don't realize it, but Seubert/O'Hara/Snee were FAR more important than Osi/Tuck/JPP.

The Giants are 2 quality OL away from being back in it. That simple.

Damn, I'm smart.
RE: as for contention  
BrettNYG10 : 12/19/2014 10:06 am : link
In comment 12042546 JonC said:
Quote:
yes, this team is probably two solid offseasons of talent infusion and rebuilding the defense away from being in position to consider contention.

Imo, their approach to the OL isn't complete until they upgrade RT. Pugh was overdrafted imo and they can do better at RT. They're drafting smart OL, but they need some power and size to re-establish the OL.

They also need to invest in the DL. They're losing the trench battle almost weekly, they must infuse both. We're suddenly ordinary at DE, which I pointed out two years would probably happen, and they're relying on stopgaps to round out the DT and LB positions. Kennard's a keeper, but he's going to be rushing from the edge, which means they need to decide on MIKE and add talent at S.


I'm also up in the air about Beatty - he's an acceptable player, but I think the price to value is out of whack - and he can't be your best line player if you're going to have a good OL, imo.
RE: defense is awful, but the offense is beginning to show signs  
Randy in CT : 12/19/2014 10:07 am : link
In comment 12042537 JonC said:
Quote:
The 2013 team was worse than the 2014 team, last year they were historically inept very often. Incredibly difficult to watch they were so historically bad, and got fat on bad teams playing 2nd/3rd string QBs against us.

A lot of the problems on defense were due to injuries in the secondary, but the front seven needs an offseason of investment similar to how they approached last offseason with the offense.

Time to replace Fewell, and spend some money (in smarter fashion) on defense.

Last season was a 3-4 win team in terms of talent, this team would've won 7-9 games if it had been reasonably healthy.
I think the D is performing badly (which I put mostly on Fewell) but there are some talented players there. Prince, when healthy, DRC, maybe Rolle, JPP if back, Hankins, maybe Moore, Wynn, Ayers, Kennard...

I think we are actually very close with some key acquisitions through the draft and free agency.
RE: RE: as for contention  
JonC : 12/19/2014 10:11 am : link
In comment 12042574 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 12042546 JonC said:


Quote:


yes, this team is probably two solid offseasons of talent infusion and rebuilding the defense away from being in position to consider contention.

Imo, their approach to the OL isn't complete until they upgrade RT. Pugh was overdrafted imo and they can do better at RT. They're drafting smart OL, but they need some power and size to re-establish the OL.

They also need to invest in the DL. They're losing the trench battle almost weekly, they must infuse both. We're suddenly ordinary at DE, which I pointed out two years would probably happen, and they're relying on stopgaps to round out the DT and LB positions. Kennard's a keeper, but he's going to be rushing from the edge, which means they need to decide on MIKE and add talent at S.




I'm also up in the air about Beatty - he's an acceptable player, but I think the price to value is out of whack - and he can't be your best line player if you're going to have a good OL, imo.


I would have no qualms about going LT in the draft, and they may decide Beatty's potential ceiling isn't high enough to pass over a Peat, for example. I'd fine with that. Plug that player in a RT and prepare him to bump Beatty before long.
That sounds right.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/19/2014 10:12 am : link
In addition to so many glaring holes, we have a lot of guys who probably should be upgraded.

It gives the team a lot of flexibility come draft time, but makes me think we're still a year away from competing.
RE: RE: defense is awful, but the offense is beginning to show signs  
JonC : 12/19/2014 10:15 am : link
In comment 12042575 Randy in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12042537 JonC said:


Quote:


The 2013 team was worse than the 2014 team, last year they were historically inept very often. Incredibly difficult to watch they were so historically bad, and got fat on bad teams playing 2nd/3rd string QBs against us.

A lot of the problems on defense were due to injuries in the secondary, but the front seven needs an offseason of investment similar to how they approached last offseason with the offense.

Time to replace Fewell, and spend some money (in smarter fashion) on defense.

Last season was a 3-4 win team in terms of talent, this team would've won 7-9 games if it had been reasonably healthy.

I think the D is performing badly (which I put mostly on Fewell) but there are some talented players there. Prince, when healthy, DRC, maybe Rolle, JPP if back, Hankins, maybe Moore, Wynn, Ayers, Kennard...

I think we are actually very close with some key acquisitions through the draft and free agency.


I'd agree Fewell is part of the problem, along with key injuries. JPP, Prince, Hankins, Kennard is a good start for a core, perhaps Moore will wise up with experience. I'm on record as not being a fan of DRC, but he'll be here for a bit. They have to overcome their blind spots at evaluating LBs and OLs in order to improve the talent, that along with key injuries ending promising young careers has a ton to do with the struggles.

Well the Cowboys are in cap hell next season  
Headhunter : 12/19/2014 10:17 am : link
the Eagles might or might not have a QB. Foles regressed. The Skins are a shit show. The division is there for the taking with a few upgrades. We all know what can happen if you get into the Playoffs
When the Pats lost Brady they won 11  
arnief : 12/19/2014 10:20 am : link
with Matt Cassel so we have that answer. The Giants are one good linemen on both sides of the ball away from contention with their current roster healthy and a new DC that plays attack defense. The defense is as broken as the offense was last year with much better talent. Sign and draft some physical linemen, hire a new DC who is young and aggressive, keep and get healthy the important pieces of the current roster and the Giants are a playoff contender next year. People rip JPP but in the right system he'd be a monster.
Dpinzow  
cosmicj : 12/19/2014 10:25 am : link
Thanks for the clearly laid out plAn. Appreciate the research. My one criticism is that the plan relies a bit too heavily on back loading contracts. I'd prefer a more conservative approach given that the team is a couple if years from genuine contention.
I think given their projected cap room next year  
chris r : 12/19/2014 10:26 am : link
they could contend if they are wise and lucky.

I think we need a DT, a DE, an OT, a safety, a LB and another WR.

That's six upgrades which could be split between FA and the draft, if things work out well.

Another TE and RB would be nice but aren't must haves.
RE: depth players play roles in aspect of ST's  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/19/2014 10:27 am : link
In comment 12042242 micky said:
Quote:
As well, which plays a role in whether winning or losing games..look at Philly this year..so its not just starters


This is what I've been harping on for a couple of years.

The team will tell you that the injuries sucked the depth out of the roster leading to poor special teams. But the truth is that the special teams units the last 2 years have stunk BEFORE the injuries began to decay that area.

You can win games if this area makes contributions. Punt and kick returns. Blocked punts or FG's. Scoring on specials and/or putting the the offense and/or defense in favorable positions with good returns or holding the other team to nothing on theirs.

For 2 years the Giants have done none of that and it speaks to the bottom half of the roster contributing virtually nothing. They rarely if ever, score on defense too. So the entire burden is placed on the offense to do everything and as we know, the team doesn't have enough talent to carry the load.
The Giants woes for the past two seasons  
Frank from CA : 12/19/2014 11:20 am : link
has squarely been on the offensive and defensive lines. There are other flaws (ie LBs), but the fatal ones are with in the trenches. Our Franchise QB is very capable of game ending drives amongst other things. The way the Giants acquire Lineman, especially on offense must change. Better scouting of linemen is paramount. The FO has to look inward and change its system of assigning value to prospective linemen.

I think they had the right idea in signing some OL veterans to value contracts. Schwartz proved to be a waste of money as he does not perform. There are good prospects in each round of the draft and already on NFL teams stuck in numbers games. Does the FO have the ability to get it right?

I think simply having a NFL level ability at each spot in the Trenches means being competitive. The Giants are not and in doing so are diminishing the quality players shelf life that are currently on the Roster (ie Manning).
RE: ERic in Debbie Downer Mode. lol  
OC : 12/19/2014 11:42 am : link
In comment 12042069 Beezer said:
Quote:
The draft is key. Injuries killed us this year, as well.

Curious, the two mopst recent SB years, weren't the Giants ridiculously low on the NFL's "key injury" ranking?

Kennard seems to be a player, despite what someone wants to call him.

Moore will be into his third season, and the talent appears to be there. The optimist says he'll flick the switch, regardless of JPP re-signing or going.

One top O-lineman, maybe a S with the second pick, FAs at LB and DL, hoping for Cruz's healthy return, and maybe something could develop at TE, either through the draft (later rounds) or a vet signing ...

Ya never know.


Agree with most of that. However, I think you need to put a WR on top of your list. We are on dangerously thin ice at that position. OBJ & who else? Cruz questionable, Randle a goner & ... well you see my point.
Well,  
Doomster : 12/19/2014 1:06 pm : link
The Giants are one good linemen on both sides of the ball away from contention with their current roster healthy and a new DC that plays attack defense.


Sure, if your goal is one and done....as mentioned, the NFC East is there for the taking, because all the teams have many flaws.....but winning the Division, doesn't make you a contender....if Atlanta wins out, they win their division at 7-9.....one and done....

The Giants are more than 2 linemen away...TE, RB, DE, DT, RT/LG, WR, 2-LB, 3-S's, and backups, backups, backups.....
RE: if  
NYG4246 : 12/19/2014 1:27 pm : link
In comment 12042015 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Beckham tore his ACL, where would this team be?


why would you even say that?
RE: I think we're a long way from contention as well  
dguy901 : 12/19/2014 1:30 pm : link
In comment 12042264 dpinzow said:
Quote:
but a win in Week 17 will change my opinion slightly

We need:

At least 2 OL (a starting LG and a versatile Boothe-type as a reserve)
Another WR opposite Odell, even if Cruz returns, and definitely if he doesn't
At least 1 DE, 2 if JPP leaves (and we'll have to draft DE in the 1st round if JPP leaves)
At least one starting DT
I think we have an OG for next year already, Eric Herman. Draft priorities appear to be OT, DE, SS (Rolle will probably be gone and Taylor may not be durable), MLB and DT. After that, anybodies guess is as good as mine.
At least 2 LBs, and the positions are dependent on where they play Kennard. If they give Kennard the playcalling helmet next year it'll be 2 OLBs
A FS if Rolle leaves
A SS, but hopefully Cooper Taylor is finally healthy
NOT UNTIL THEY FIX THE O-LINE  
NYG4246 : 12/19/2014 1:59 pm : link
I really think that once the O-line is fixed this team will start rolling again. The inability to sustain drives and have a reliable run game has killed this team since 2012. Once the run game returns the drives will start to last longer, the passing game will open up and most importantly the defense will be on the sideline for a longer duration of time. The defense has taken a beating due to the amount of time on the field as well as the mind blowing inability to contain from the DE's and LB's. They should have a decent amount of cap room this offseason and they should invest a healthy proportion into the line, starters and backups, as well as draft more then 1 lineman to develop. Theyve really missed a backup who can play multiple positions (Kevin Boothe circa 2011 ).

They could also use another RB, and not a scat back speedster like Wilson, who i never thought was a good fit for what we try to do. We also need a tight end who can block. Getting healthy will go a long way for the secondary and LB core, another LB wouldnt hurt either.

With a few of the right peices added we'll be back to GIANT football.

Lets go G-men
also  
NYG4246 : 12/19/2014 2:29 pm : link
this team is a few plays away from a winning record.....
Week 1 get knocked out by Detroit

Week 2 Jennings fumbles the ball with no one near him, they maintain that drive and put some points up its a completely different game, defense played very well

Week3,4,5 Wins vs Washington, Houston and Atlanta

Week 6 Blown out by Philly

Week 7 Donnell fumbles twice, Rolle drops a sure pick at the goal line, Dallas scores TD, a few plays later...thats 13 Points, Giants should have won there

Week 8 Bye week

Week 9 Colts blown out by Colts

Week 10 Loss to Seahawks, despite giving up 6 miles of rushing this was a close game in the 4th quarter...3 times the Giants forced fumbles and they failed to recover all of them. They go a different way the Giants most likely walk out of Seattle with a W......on another note, Earl Thomas doesnt get enough credit for that pick in the endzone, guy ran 40+ yards to make one hell of a play on the ball.

Week 11- 3 straight fade routes on the goal line should have been three straight dives up the gut.They get in. They win.

Week 12- 3 point loss to Dallas....ball goes off of Parkers hands and is picked off by Church at the goal line. Parker runs the right route, Giants win.

Week 13- Embarrassment in J'ville. Josh Brown misses his only FG so far this season, he hits that, Giants Win...
not to mention Jennings unexplicably tries to bring the fumble out of the end zone. if he does the right things and takes the safety, Giants win.



Should have beat Jacksonville, Dallas 2x, SF. Thats 4 wins left on the table. Im not gonna say they would have beat Seattle but they recover those fumbles....With that being said good teams dont make thos mistakes, good teams dont let j'vill come back even though they scored twice on defense ( donnell with fumblitis, bad move by jennings ).....This could very easily be a 9 win team, without a whole lot of talent and 22 Players on IR...

5-9 could very easily be 9-5....thats how small the distance between a playoff team and a bottom dwelling team is. These are fixable. We're close.

LETS GO GIANTS!
NYG4246  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/19/2014 2:52 pm : link
You know what kinds of teams talk in those terms that consistently come up short and always blame it on "just a few plays?"

Poor teams.

The Raiders have lost 5 games by 7 points or less. They could make the same argument. A lot of teams can. The ones that lose enough typically do.

Here's a way to compare...  
TheEvilLurker : 12/19/2014 3:34 pm : link
I took one of the healthier teams in the league (Dallas), and supposed that we had the same positional players on IR, the rest are relatively healthy.

That means that we still have Ayers, Beason, Thurmond, Kiwanuka, and Manning on IR. The rest are "relatively" healthy.

We then have a team with : LB Williams, DB Prince, WR Cruz, WR Jernigan, WR Harris, DB Mcbride, DB Taylor (we also have RB's Hillis and Cox...not sure whether to count Wilson or not).

You can't tell me that doesn't give this team a few more wins. Sure, our OL will still suck, but there is a big improvement at WR and DB.

Injuries hurt this team big time, although we still stink at OL, LB.
I took it the opposite way too...  
TheEvilLurker : 12/19/2014 3:44 pm : link
suppose that Dallas had the same positional players the Giants have out on IR:

Take out WR's: Williams, Beasley, Street. Have Dez Bryant miss the first few games of the season.

Take out CB's: Carr, Moore, Patmon

Have RB Murray miss part of the season.

Is this team a playoff contender?
I don't think they're far at all  
Go Terps : 12/19/2014 3:47 pm : link
Philly and Dallas aren't all that great...though I do believe Philly is dangerous with that coach. I think he's really good. They might be a QB away from being legit SB contenders.

But still, I don't think the Giants are too far off either of these two teams. I think there is going to be some productive addition by subtraction this offseason to go along with any new pickups.

Back to the Corner