Thought this need it's own thread and the deeper reasons why we are at where we are today.
What are the circumstances that lead up and resulted in Eric Garner’s death? Well, we probably have to go back to when the first tax was levied for whatever reason.
Cigarette tax evasion is big business. It cost the federal government and states billions in tax revenue every year. Also, in a 1998 settlement, major cigarette companies pay in perpetuity, into states healthcare systems based on legal sales.
I've opined on this site before how the underground economy is alive and well in the US. Everyone thinks it’s all about organized crime as seen on tv. It is, but they need distributors. Enter Eric Garner.
Eric Garner was a 9x felon because we, as a society, made him so. Think the drug war except the government is loosing money. Never forget, we are the government.
First paragraph is Kickers wheelhouse. Link below
“Every 10 percent increase in the price of cigarettes reduces overall consumption by as much as 5 percent and lowers the number of children who smoke by about 7 percent, according to the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids in Washington.
At the same time, smuggling has been increasing because the higher the taxes, the more incentive there is for criminals, said Jeff Cohen, ATF associate chief counsel in Washington.”
Problem is that this is another tax on the lower income sector of our society. Those who can least afford it.
So now we know why the police were there that morning. Now we know why Eric Garner was again selling bootleg cigarettes trying to support a family. Hell they knew each other. The cops did not set out that morning to have someone die and Eric did not wake up that morning and said I’m going to resist arrest this time.
Now we have two minority cops killed who were transferred to a high crime minority district for that reason, they were minorities.
I have no answers and no reason for the insanity like I feel many don’t.
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As a white male who doesn't break the law, I have found that my interaction with cops is mostly that they are fucking assholes in how they deal with people. They need to work on that for everyone's sake. 50/50 good cop/asshole cop sucks as a ratio.
That was a very good post, Randy. So, I'm not really disagreeing with anything you said. Just want to point out one little thing that basically comes out of what you were saying..
I too am a white male. But I break the law all the time. I drive over the speed limit every day. Not by much and I have never been in accident. But I still go over the limit routinely.
Like 99% of America who are eligible to itemize, I also stretch the truth on my tax return about certain tax deductible items. That is tax fraud.
I jaywalk all the time. Even when I cross at the crosswalk, I don't stay in those white lines but instead cut over in whichever direction I'm heading.
I try not to drink and drive now that I'm a mature adult. But I have done many times in the past.
I have also smoked pot, snorted coke, speed, and heroin. Took LSD twice. I also have passed it to others, which is the legal equivalent of selling.
My point: we all commit petty illegalities all the time. But some people--like Eric Garner--are more likely to get in trouble with the law for them.
When I was young and drove and old bomb of a car, I got pulled over all the time. I especially got pulled over when I had someone who is black in the car with me. It got to the point where I could not give my friend Winston a ride home because he lived in Bed-Stuy and whenever the cops see a black and white guy together in that neighborhood, it was an automatic pull over. Black and white guy together? They must be conducting a drug deal. They couldn't possibly be friends and colleagues.
And sorry to get on the soapbox, but that stuff pisses me off so much.
It is my hope that one of them drops by to explain it.
Years ago, before log in, I was going to write a paper on the difficulty of recruiting minorities into the fire/police service despite efforts for inclusion for my capstone and ran it by BBI.
While the cultural norms explained the reasons back then, it seems to have gotten worse, not better.
Why in a community like Ferguson, is the minority ratio like it is on the police department?
Why do young minorities not see a career in the police/fire department as a viable option?
They walk in with their lawyers with prearranged plea deals. They pay their finds with investor money.
The elected officials decided it was a better arrest. Not the cops.
I do wonder what will happen when everyone stops smoking. The governments of states and fed are getting quite a lot of revenue from tobacco and now pot, but do they really want to encourage more smoking?
These cops were hung out to dry by this policy decision. I doubt that this was a highly sought assignment.
That's one thing that everyone can get behind, is free to implement, and would save a lot of lives.
Quote:
the solution is...?
Said I don't have a solution.
What's yours?
No more prosecution of tax evaders? At what level?
To not get violent with victemless crimes. He didn't hurt anyone physically. And the police harrassed him about it.
Worst part is, they were called for a fight in the street which he broke up.
But back to my point. It'd be nice if police did not act out physically for a victemless crime. or a non-threatening crime.
Issue out a ticket / summons to appear in court a million times.
You know the others--at least a half a dozen in the last couple of years. And you have several major police departments that have clearly been identified as being out of control in terms of pre-incident behavior that leads to unnecessary killings, including Albuquerque and Cleveland.
The you have the head of the Cleveland PBA coming out and saying that the two shooting of victims with fake guns were clearly justified, because no one was incited--yet,and that Cleveland professional athletes should just mind their own fucking business. And you have a Michael Brown case that still has open questions about the motive of the DA.
It all adds up and adds up and adds up, and does the good cops no favors.
Btw, for those of you who think that there isn't a problem for the St. Louis DA because he let witness 40 to testify despite knowing she was almost certainly lying, that behavior is probably a grounds to lose his licence, or at least be censured and charged with contempt of court. It's illegal.
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No money, no power, no fathers that are kings.
It really amazes me how many excuses some seem to want to come up with when it comes to the very real issue of police brutality and overall aggressiveness when it comes to how they deal with black men. Somehow, someway a group of people are determined to make it the victim's (or his or her parents, upbringing etc) 'fault' that they are dead and I truly wonder if these same people would be making the same excuses and drawing whatever weird conclusions that are being drawn if it was their family member or friend that was in the situation?
In Mike Brown's case... no matter how out there Wilson's testimony may be to me and some others... there's no video evidence as to what happened and Brown DID in fact just commit a crime just a few minutes earlier before he was killed so, IMO, one HAS to agree that it's possible that Wilson's testimony is 100% true and Brown was killed, rightfully so, by a police officer who feared for his life.
Then you have Garner's case. There's is video evidence of an illegal chokehold be used AND it's ruled a homicide... and yet there isn't even an indictment. There's the video evidence that was absent in the Garner case AND it's determined a homicide... and yet what some want to use as some kind of excuse for what happened is his previous arrest record and the fact that he was resisting arrest. Never mind the fact that he shouldn't have been getting arrested in the first place because he wasn't doing anything wrong or illegal at the time he was approached. Then you have threads like this one pop up where it's stated that:
When neither of those statements are true. The police weren't there to arrest Garner nor was he selling illegal cigarettes. They were there responding to reports of a fight breaking out (which Garner stopped!) and when they saw Garner there they decided to start fucking with him... just as they'd been doing over the course of the past few months.
Then we have the Tamir Rice situation. This time we have video evidence of the police AGAIN not following proper protocal and killing a 12 year old child... the child, as far as I know, doesn't have any prior convictions nor was he doing anything illegal... and yet STILL we have some who want to place blame on EVERYONE ELSE but the police officer (who based on several recommendations shouldn't have been one in the first place) from Rice himself... to Rice's parents... to even the dispatcher. It's everyone else's fault BUT the police officer's.
And we have case after case of black men being killed and there are those who don't think any of these cases are racially based. That's hard for me to swallow when it seems to be happening MUCH more often to one particular race than any other... and it doesn't matter if the person is someone who just did or is committing a crime (in Brown's case)... wasn't committing a crime but was convicted of some in his past (in Garner's case)... or even if the victim is an innocent 12 year old child (in Rice's case). Either way, the officer who made that HUGE error in judgement is allowed to walk away, with no punishment whatsoever, and it's because they know they can and will get away with it that it keeps happening.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... I can't help but think that if this was happening to any other race, shit would be going down right now... particularly if it was white men and kids being gunned down by minority cops at the rate it's happening.
They received a call and responded to it. That's all.
Even if the the OP'S assertion was correct, and this was, indeed about tax evasion, it seems rather silly for a law enforcement agency to go after a guy selling loose cigs. The vast majority of tax circumventing on cigs occurs with large distribution companies in states such as VA - where tax is much lower - are buying more than they can realistically sell in that particular state. The implication is that these are reshipped to NY.
People like Garner aren't even a blip.
Why did he resist arrest? What happened in his past dealings with the police that caused him to suggest that they're always harassing him?
Pretty sure that had to do with him being busted for selling untaxed smokes, no?
Sure, if they weren't there at all he probably wouldn't be dead. But if he had never been pinched for selling untaxed smokes in the past couldn't the same argument be made?
cos - you're correct that Brown's case seemed to kick off the frustration and this 'movement' against police brutality and he's not really a good 'face' to put on it... moreso, at least IMO, because of his actions in the store moreso than because of Wilson's testimony (again, this is just in my eyes). But this movement isn't just about Brown, Garner, Rice or any one incident but the fact that this is has been happening for DECADES and, for whatever reason, seems to be happening much more often over the past year or so.
I need to say, before I say any more, that my condolences go out to the slain police officer's families. The coward who killed them shouldn't be made to represent what I believe has been mostly peaceful protests, though, any more than the assholes who crashed those planes into the WTC and other places should represent Muslims as a whole. As schnitzie put it earlier, that asshole was just looking for an excuse to kill some cops and found it with regards to the recent protests knowing that he was about to spend a long time in jail for shooting his ex-gf. But, as you said, his actions aren't going to help at all (but I don't think he really cared about the movement at all either).
Why did he resist arrest? What happened in his past dealings with the police that caused him to suggest that they're always harassing him?
Pretty sure that had to do with him being busted for selling untaxed smokes, no?
Sure, if they weren't there at all he probably wouldn't be dead. But if he had never been pinched for selling untaxed smokes in the past couldn't the same argument be made?
Cam, OK yes, when he was being pursued by the cops, it was for illegally selling cigarettes which is a way of tax evasion. But the OP characterized it as a serious crime. Tax evasion has a far stronger connotation than what was actually occurring. The cops would do the same thing to anyone illegally selling anything on the streets (other than drugs which would obviously be more serious).
So my point was, the whole history lesson on cigarettes and the way they're taxed was just so off the mark and irrelevant. He was committing a minor crime and there wasn't some bigger picture to understand here. You don't get arrested 30-something times and end up on the street if it's the big deal the OP characterized it as.
I already told you in my first post what happened in the past with regards to the police... and those policeman that were there in particular... that cause Garner to flip out the way he did. As I said, Garner's father has come out and stated that Garner had been the victim of police harassment many times over the past few months before that incident because of a suit he has against the PD over some money they supposedly stole from him. Since he filed that suit, supposedly (in his father's words) he was constantly harassed (sexually as well) by members of that police department (and several of the cops who were there that fateful day) and he had enough of it. Particularly because he wasn't doing anything wrong at the time (and in fact was doing something GOOD in trying to break up a fight). It's actually kind of sad to think that if he hadn't broken up that fight, he might still be here today.
Take a look at the video again from the start. You first see Garner telling the officers that he didn't do anything and wanted to know why he was being arrested. The cops at one point say 'Selling illegal cigarettes' but have absolutely no witnesses to back up their claim and in fact actually having by-standers saying he didn't do anything but break up a fight. The officers then point to some random guy down the street and say that he sold them to that guy and Garner challenges them to get the guy and prove that he sold him some cigarettes. It was then... with no real cause or evidence of any wrong-doing on Garner's part... that the officers then decide they're going to arrest him anyway with no proof whatsoever that he did anything wrong and that's when things went very bad.
If that was me... and I've ALWAYS been a guy who has had a healthy respect for the law and police officers (despite my own shady encounters with them in my past... a few of which I've shared on this site)... I can't tell you that I wouldn't have reacted the exact same way Garner was because at some point even civilians should have the right to say 'ENOUGH' when it comes to harassment. When I see what happened to Garner, I see myself. Most of you don't and that's why some of you are unable to have any empathy towards Garner and Rice (I'm not asking for any towards Brown because there are too many unknowns to put him in with them). But I and people I know have been put in that same exact situation and at some point you just get sick and tired of it.
If the claim of selling untaxed cigarettes is that he wasn't paying taxes on the loose cigs he was selling, but he had paid the tax when he first bought the pack, it's a disingenuous charge, effectively requiring that the tax be paid twice, upon sale and individual resale.
A pack of smokes resold as loosies can bring in $20 on a $10 pack.
A second round of taxation seems a fairly miniscule and ridiculous thing to arrest someone over. It's a lame policy that results in the over-policing of the poor and doesn't make our neighborhoods any safer.
One arrest causes serious hardship for a poor family. They are forced to choose between putting food on the table and getting Dad out of jail. Plus they lose a major breadwinner while Dad is in jail.
If you don't want people selling loosies or drugs, give them other options and opportunities for earning a living. The lack of investment in jobs and infrastructure is one of those aspects of the non-recovery recovery that has ended up leaving the middle class, working class and working poor one misfortune away from homelessness.
They really aren't related. If they are, then selling any item on the street is illegal as all items are supposed to be taxed. The whole speech about cigarette taxing was totally irrelevant.
My bad Cam!
njm - I honestly am not 100% sure that's the amount he said but I'm pretty sure of that. But nevertheless, he said his money was stolen and there is a valid suit against the police department regarding it. Again, this is all from his father's mouth.
They really aren't related. If they are, then selling any item on the street is illegal as all items are supposed to be taxed. The whole speech about cigarette taxing was totally irrelevant.
So cops never crack down on unlicensed vendors selling stuff on the street?
They really aren't related. If they are, then selling any item on the street is illegal as all items are supposed to be taxed. The whole speech about cigarette taxing was totally irrelevant.
I can agree with this.
I thought his overall point had to do with certain populations of folks being unevenly policed over what amounts to very silly things to other parts of the population.
But I haven't read the OP in a while and think I probably am projecting anyway. And misremembering.
An order to crack down on the illegal sale of 75-cent cigarettes in Staten Island came directly from Police Headquarters, setting off a chain of events that ended in Eric Garner’s death, the Daily News has learned.
Chief of Department Philip Banks — the highest-ranking uniformed cop in the city — sent a sergeant from his office at 1 Police Plaza in July to investigate complaints of untaxed cigarettes being sold in the Tompkinsville neighborhood, a source close to the investigation told The News.
“(Banks) set the whole thing in motion,” the source said.
The sale of loosies had been on Banks’ radar since at least March, when it was discussed at a meeting at Police Headquarters about quality-of-life issues, a police source said.
Banks’ office also conducted surveillance on Bay St. and took pictures, one of which shows three men believed to be involved in an illegal cigarette sale. The News reviewed the photograph and Garner is not in it.
At around the same time, on March 27, a caller to the city’s 311 hotline complained about the issue, saying a group of men had been selling untaxed cigarettes, and sometimes marijuana, on Bay St. every day for the past three years, a second source said.
The caller identified one of the sellers as “a man named Eric.”
The next day, Garner was arrested for selling untaxed cigarettes, one of three pending cases before his death.
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As a multi-time offender though, I don't think the Garner case is the result of the crack down. I think if he was illegally selling iPhone chargers and he non violently refused to comply with officers, we'd still be having this discussion.
In my opinion, the law that sent officers there is irrelevant. I think weed should be legal, but if he was being arrested on suspicion of possessing a dime bag and didn't comply, his fate would have been the same. Focusing on the law takes away from what should be the issue, which is whether or not excessive force used by the officer caused his death. And if you decide that it did, then the discussion can perhaps shift to whether or not the same force would've been applied with a white offender.
Making the starting point being the actual offense, while a worth while general discussion, doesn't really aid in stopping this from happening again. There will likely always be laws on the books that open an ethics debate. Usually (though not always) these offenses will likely be small, otherwise we'd all agree on the law. When these laws are enforced, whether it's weed, cigarettes or anything else, the discussion for me is about how the cop responds. Not the legislation itself.
But he characterized it as less of an interesting time line and more of a direct cause and effect scenario. That's why I whole-heartedly disagree with the tone of his post.
while -some . of . those . same . people support the social engineering of taxing tobacco to death...and see selling untaxed tobacco as 'a serious crime.'
Hell, the police only have so many people, so many resources.
I am in the seemingly unusual position of being:
1) 110% in favor of supporting our police,
2)being very, very thankful of their presence, while, even
3) questioning why the media is -not- looking into -other- aspects of these individuals development ...those aspects that - dont - go into the Prevalent Narrative Dogma...
while, at the same time, feeling that anti-tobacco laws are just flat out stupid and anti-American.
Maybe that does not fit the typical 'political groupings' idea of our social matrix, but so be it.
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I'm sure in addition to maturity, hormones and proving themselves to their peers makes young cops act unnecessarily aggressive at times.
I think we can all agree that choking a person to death is not the appropriate response to a crime like selling lose cigarettes (or other minor crimes like speeding or not putting enough money in the parking meter).
I think we can also all agree that some cops do possess the skill necessary to prevent the Garner situation from happening. Unfortunately they were not at the scene that day.
On the other hand, great benefit resulted when they emphasized stopping loitering, (great reduction in crime has been tied to that, Gulianani, I think), but, again, if a person has I.D., they could be ticketed for that as well.
Things like pointing guns at cops? By all means, if a guy points a gun at a cop, the police officer -has to- shoot the guy. To think otherwise would just be flat out stupid. We need to think independently here, and critically.
Each part of this has its own merits and problems.
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Woah, woah, woah. Easy there Skippy. I'm married.
I am a lazy slob tho. (Slob only in the "lazy" sense- I'm a fine MFer)