Mike Garafolo & #8207;@MikeGarafolo
Mentioned on air a little bit ago there's been a steady drumbeat about a possible return to NYG for Steve Spagnuolo that isn't going away.
than any defense in NFL history. His defense with the Rams was also poor for the most part.
So, I think the posters who are hesitant about the Giants rehiring him are certainly justified.
However, the Giants personnel fits very well with the type of D Spags likes to run. He likes to use multiple DL packages that emphasize quickness to get to the passer and getting into the backfield to disrupt running plays. He is not a guy who plugs up the middle with massive run-stopping DTs. Jenkins, Hankins and even Bromley would appear to be Spags type DTs. Moore, Wynn and Ayers are exactly the type of DEs he likes.
He puts a lot of responsibility on his corners to play press coverage and go one-on-one. Giants have two of the best in DRC and Prince.
He needs LBers and safeties who can blitz. Kennard has already demonstrated that he can blitz. Giants safeties were awful this year and need to be upgraded regardless of who becomes DC.
Giants were 5th in the league with 47 sacks, playing for a DC, who blitzed only reluctantly. With Spags in charge, this could be a very potent pass rush.
is ok here to defend TC and the results the Giants have had the last few years but gets ignored when looking at other coaches from other teams or even our own assistants.
CBs DRC a great cover 1 guy and Prince a guy who can cover and play in space. Even blitz. You need some backups although Brown maybe serviceable.
Safety is bad but the Taylor kid has flashed at times and Berhe is a hitter.
LB this is really a mess Kennard can be special williams is really a saftey
McClain is a pro but not fast you really have to design a defense that does not require good LBs or hope for a good draft here.
Inside Dline you have a budding star in Hankins but not much more Bromley could be something Kuhn is useless.
DE get JPP back put him at RDE like Strahan he can grow there. Moore is raw and Osi like but can get to the passer. Ayers was a nice find and could be the old vet Wynn can be a good platoon with Moore. This can be a strong unit but you have no 4 aces. Maybe you can do something with Kiwi.
Couple FA and draft moves and this defense can be a force again.
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 4m4 minutes ago
On the other hand, plenty of position coaches on the Giants have worked with - and won with - Spags.
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 5m5 minutes ago
Only 1 current Giants defensive player was here with Spags: Kiwanuka. And we know what will likely become of him.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
As far as 43 or 34, like I said, I don't care either way. If there was a time to make a chance this would be it. So if we chose to take it or not, I am not in favor of one over the other. Just as long as we hire a different coordinator, fine by me. Just give me an aggressive DC. It's too bad we can't get someone like Bowles or Horton. I loved what they did with Arizona. [/quote]
When Parcells used a 3/4 he had LT, Banks, Carson, Reasons, with Pepper Johnson as a reserve. That was an awesome group. Good LBs is also why the 49ers have been successful until several of them got injured this year. If you want to run a horse race, you need the horses.
Right now, the Giants LBs are mostly mediocre or worse. Kinnard has great potential & Beason can be good if he is not hurt. They have no one else to get excited about. To run a good 3/4 they would need at least 2 successful upgrades at the position & that is not likely. One of the things that I liked about Parcells & Spaguoulo is that they tailored their systems to the players & did not try to force the players into rigid roles that did not suit their talents, as you-know- does.
I think this would be a bad hire. I think he was an OK DC coordinator when here, bolstered by a supremely talented DL. Since he left, he was a joke as a HC, did absolutely nothing in NO except have one of the worst defenses ever, and then took a big step backward in terms of responsibility in Baltimore. I haven't watched enough of their games to make a judgement, but I will point out that while their D overall is decent, he is a secondary coach for one of the worst passing Ds in terms of yardage.
Yeah, a secondary that has been ravaged by injuries. Do you even know about the Ravens' injury situation with their DBs?
I guess Fewell is off the hook too. We had Mike Harris and Chykie Brown getting snaps in the secondary by the end of the season. 3 of our top 4 CB's were on IR before the midway point in the season and the only one who didn't hit IR was playing at far less than 100% for most of the season.
Clearly communicate well with each other and work well together.
I mean, was it lazy when the Steelers brought back Dick Lebough? No.
Exactly. The Spags critics are clueless. LeBeau came back to Pitt and was no longer a threat to become a HC elsewhere as well. I don't think Spags is going to go that route either at anytime in the near future. He's a natural fit.
The Saints situation was a nightmare where he wasn't even able to really communicate with the head coach due to the whole bounty thing.
He did benefit from a much better defensive line here than Fewell ever got, but there's no denying he had a lot of success, including holding the best offense in NFL history (at the time) to a mere 14 points in the Super Bowl.
Although I don't think he should be handed the job without looking at other candidates, the guy was a very good DC here during his short time and I would be happy to have him back.
RE: RE: I'm wondering if the Giants ownership long-term plan isn't to
duplicate the Steelers coaching arrangement, with a long-term HC helped by a premier DC (LeBeau).
McAdoo = Tomlin
Spags = LeBeau
I had this same thought. After all the criticism of Coughlin's "coaching tree," it'd be hilarious if his final OC and DC followed him with a successful run.
take the same route that they used to get Spags, and grab an Eagles coach. Dave Fipp, their special teams coach, would be someone I would be pretty interested in for DC.
Hearing it is "50-50" that Fewell returns. Or is it "50-50" he is fired? Damn, I forgot to ask. Anyway, Giants still in process of deciding.
We have a few things to consider here:
Giants are very,very media sensitive and calculated in how they handle the media. They leak things out in deliberate fashion with a goal in mind. Fewell though thoroughly proven to not be a good fit for this defense (and perhaps not that great a DC) was a hard worker and company man. Bottomline, ownership are very loyal to those types.
They will at minimum work hard to make this look like a 'hard' decision to keep Fewell's stock as high as possible for future employment.
You think TC's comments weren't contrived and calculated when he said he wants to keep his whole staff intact?
However you sometimes never know with this ownership. The other part of this is the Giants are so loyal they can be blind to just how bad a fit a coordinator or coach is if he endears himself to the organization and is a high character person.
Though a sometimes admirable trait for an organization, let's hope it isnt the latter as this arguably is move that's been 2 years overdue at this point. Otherwise, we are throwing yet another year down the toilet.
Admittedly our favorite furry paisano is just a DB coach, and a nepotism-type selection at that by his good friend John Harbough, but consider:
Ravens 3rd Down Conversion 89/221.4027. Giants 72/200.360
Ravens pass defense 382/595 .642 11 int. Giants 324/522 .62 17
Ravens 49 sacks Giants 47.
Ravens passing yardsge: 4341. Giants 4163.
Talent evaluation: examine one Chykie Brown, who started 2 games in 4 years with Baltimore. They waived him. He started 4 games with the Giants, becoming Fewell's second best corner by the last month of the season.
Steve Spagnuolo owed his success with the Giants almost exclusively to the 4 Aces. In 07 he greatly benefitted by Strahan's Hall-of-Fame caliber play. Mike pulled a Koufax and retired at the top of his game. In 08 Tuck was the best defensive lineman in the game. Osi was in his prime. Should Spagnuolo return the sole remaining player from his 2-year stint with the Giants would be Kiwanuka, who everybody wants back. Whole different game now.
As for his benighted stay with the Saints, well, let us just say that we find out what is inside a guy when he faces adversity. But there is a comment above that is completely inaccurate. Rob Ryan took the unit over in 13. He had them 4th in total defense. 2 against the pass. 4 in sacks. & 4 in points allowed. And those are facts, not subjective colorations and cliched flash-card responses like "read and react," "Tampa 2," and "passive." Lousy personnel makes defenses appear passive because they cannot win their individual matches and are constantly behind the play. The Giants will soon have a new DC. Great they better get 4-5 new starters. Spags would be a lousy choice for DC. And this is my personal favorite about this situation: Spagnuolo is a Cover 2 coach. Is that irony?
but it's funny I was actually thinking of starting a thread to bring Spagnuolo back the past few weeks. This is a move I'm in major favor of, and happy to see that it's becoming more than a thought by the Giants front office.
I think the Giants are realizing more than ever that schemes with clearer communication that aim to dictate terms work so much more effectively at unleashing natural physical talent, rhythm, and passion from players rather than passive and defeatist attitudes of former systems that IMO was derailing for players and passion (gilbride,lewis, sheridan, fewell)
As Bill2 said, brilliance is also listening and being able to get out of your own way. One of the few times Fewell got out of his own way was during the stretch run in 2011 when he adjusted the defense because there were 'miscommunications" (sound familiar?) occurring. I remember in the weeks prior to the close of the regular season Kenny Philips alluded to changes in scheme and communication that would help the defense know their roles, become more aggressive, and excel. Phillips was almost cocky in how much he felt these changes would help the team, and that always stuck with me. From there on out, the defense looked much more sure and aggressive. We all know the rest of the story.
I was also one of the major advocates for a new offensive system last year (really for many years) and would have leaped from the Empire State Building if Sullivan was hired. I always felt Eli was at least a 30+ td and low teens int guy. This year he's pretty much proven that. Throw out that SF game and Eli was pretty much at that 30+/10 line, with a mediocre o-line, and young and suspect talent. And there's been no aw shucks, cruddy body language. Eli's looked his most passionate ever, and I think that stems from him knowing it's in his hands, and can't be ripped away by insane numbers of miscommunications. I think the defense is at this crossroads with Fewell.
Now let's look at the defense. Why does it seem that every year Fewell has to adjust the playbook so guys don't miscommunicate? In my world, if it's to the point where guys are fucking up too often, maybe you're trying to be too smart for your own good. The one thing Spags was very good at was ensuring is that if you're going to lose, let it be on the merit of the players, but go after it... Spags played aggressive, to win the game, and allowed a player to play with their god given physical skill set. In a primal sort of way, this sort of system is very energizing. Ask Corey Webster what it did for him when he was no longer having his talent railroaded and stranded on Tim Lewis' Cover 3 island. That's the same passive crap as rushing 3 and dropping 8 into coverage, begging to be picked apart. You tell me which you'd rather play in?
As other posters have alluded to, which is my hunch as well... The Giants could very well be setting themselves up with two coaches in McAdoo and Spaguolo that could potentially be paired together for a long time to come. The Tomlin and Lebeau comparison's aren't far off, and what a great situation that would be if it could work out that way. Spags is already 55, he's approaching that area where he could become a long-term DC. Continuity is king if you have the right ingredients. The Steelers do. We can too.
I think most exciting of all is having two coordinators with philosophies that don't allow us to beat ourselves, schemes players have shown they enjoy playing in, and systems that play to win in an excitable and aggressive fashion putting the onus on the players...
What's not to like? Let's do this NYG. Welcome back Spags.
I saw more greatness in two years with Spags than I have in 4-5 years with Perry. I think Perry could have no injuries and still the scheme will call for linebackers covering Calvin Johnson downfield as was the case in the opener pre-injuries. We can say Spags had no injuries to deal with but I recall a more aggressive attacking style defense. If Spags was DC in the Dallas game, I have to believe Romo would have had less time to throw. My opinion of course.
and Fewell had Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, Canty and Linval to go with him. Not to mention Boley, Phillips, Rolle and Webster. And the defense still sucked. It's sucked for most of his time here, saved only by a string of third string QBs last season. And the cupboard has not been as bare as people make it out to be. It's time for him to go.
I'm not calling for a hero's welcome for Spags, but he's an upgrade. His Rams and New Orleans stints weren't any more embarrassing than Gilbride's San Diego stint, LeBeau's Cincy stint, or Josh McDaniels' Denver debacle - and those guys all returned to their former masters and excelled as coordinators.
and Fewell had Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, Canty and Linval to go with him. Not to mention Boley, Phillips, Rolle and Webster. And the defense still sucked. It's sucked for most of his time here, saved only by a string of third string QBs last season. And the cupboard has not been as bare as people make it out to be. It's time for him to go.
I'm not calling for a hero's welcome for Spags, but he's an upgrade. His Rams and New Orleans stints weren't any more embarrassing than Gilbride's San Diego stint, LeBeau's Cincy stint, or Josh McDaniels' Denver debacle - and those guys all returned to their former masters and excelled as coordinators.
because he is a secondary coach, and the Redskins secondary sucked this year (I blame it on talent), but Raheem Morris is a VERY smart defensive coach.
not the best option, but an option I wouldn't HATE.
The 2011 Giants won a Super Bowl. But I admire the way the defense played in the playoffs that year. They clearly stepped it up. Perry's never had top five talent to work with, but he's never had bottom five talent either, in my opinion. Yet that's where his defenses rank more often than not.
It's just the way people bend over backwards to defend Spags, make every excuse in the book for him and completely gloss over the major warts on his resume since he left here that make me shake my head.
If Spags comes back, I will back him 100% and hope for the best. I just am not going to expect much unless the personnel improves because no one is fielding a top 10 defense with the guys Fewell had this year.
Points per game. The good years under Fewell are comparable to Spags' worst year. Keep in mind, Bill Sheridan got fired in 2009 allowing 26.7 points per game, third worst in the league. Fewell hasn't gotten that bad, yet....
We could arguably for the first time in the TC era have BOTH offensive and defensive systems that are player friendly and take best advantage of our players.
The total d
BP in NJ : 1:03 pm : link : reply
stats are misleading.n 2009 was Bill Sheridan if i'm not mistaken, and he was the worst DC in the history of football...
When defenses are ranked, why are they ranked by the yardage they give up? What does yardage have to do with win/losses?
It's points allowed, to me, that determines how good a defense is....
Sheridan's defense was ranked 13th, yes....in freakin' yardage......they were 30th in points.....
As for Spag's, I have no idea why he would want to come here.....he would be expected to turn this team right around....when he came here, the players were in place, for the most part....and he got the most out of them.....
At this very moment, this defense has no linebackers or safties....injured corners.....the best DLman may be leaving....one solid DT.....the rest either have no experience or are stop gap at best....
Any DC, would need the help of a good GM to get him the players he needs.....this could easily be a 2-3 year rebuild on defense.....
Spag's would be coming back to a nightmare......he'd be crazy to accept this job.....and as mentioned, who wants to be DC, with TC year to year, unless there is a promise of being the head coach....
I hear you. But those problems would be here for ANY DC that comes here.
The question should be, 'does Spags' previous seasons with the Giants give him a leg up, an advantage, on rebuilding the Giants D? As opposed to DC's who've never been with the team at all. Is there some kind of intangible that could be at work here with Spags and not with someone else.
come back and have a lot of success just to see Arcs head explode like in Scanners... :)
All kidding aside, I'd rather have an up and coming name that impresses the front office (like McAdoo) for the defense. The only thing we know for sure about Spags is that we have no idea at this point if he's a good defensive coordinator. I loved his constant blitzing attitude and I think in today's NFL that is how you have to play, but he was just God awful in New Orleans.
Re. the Giants' inability to cover the middle of the field, Dorgan recently put much of the blame on the players:
Quote:
In both 4-3 and 3-4 zone schemes the drop landmarks for the LBers are well thought out and will put the LBer in an initial position to be near the center of their zone AND that starting target position should put them dead center in the middle of a primary passing lane. We do that well. What we don't do well is to react to receivers running into and through our zones.
Part of the problem is a lack of athleticism. Part of it is we are either undisciplined or lacking in mental capacity. Can't tell from my couch which it is, I'd have to be in practice a few days to figure out what the fuck is wrong with them.
The drops are text book from what I can see. The reaction from there is comic book.
Re. the meltdown against the read option in the Seahawks game, however, Dorgan unloaded on Fewell with both barrels (bold face added for emphasis):
Quote:
Yes, it is coaching. We use the shallow chase concept which is a very poor decision against any type of option. Most coaches with a pulse recognized that before they graduated to the HS level.
The shallow chase works somewhat against strict zone run, but never against veer or zone read.
I'm not a guy who calls for coaches' heads, but he needs to go. No ifs, ands or buts. Firing him today is a year too late for my taste.
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The DEs were crashing into the C gap, then went into shallow chase when the ball went away from them. Every down. It was stealing to run the QB keep.
Fewell was trying to use a switch call with the OLB or the CB on contain, but several times we were in man coverage and the two defenders he's got on QB are dropping into coverage.
Just a recipe for disaster. I hate shallow chase concepts except when you're up against a zone run team. It can be effective then when the RB tries for the backside cut, but against any type of option it puts too much pressure on your OLBers and CBs. Coupling the shallow chase switch call with man coverage is completely unsound.
It leaves you with NO ONE on the QB.
RE: RE: RE: Spags won with CB's straight off the street due to injuries
Not sure I am a fan of rehiring him, frankly I can take it or leave it, but he did have success with injuries.
But he had Strahan still playing at a high level and starving for a title, Tuck, Osi, Cofield, Kiwi all young and hungry and fast getting after the QB. Who wold he have now?
Moore, Wynn, Hankins, Kennard, possibly JPP
Which of these is a premier pass rusher? Wynn is a guy off the street, Moore is still a maybe. Kennard too, he played just 4 games. JPP a good player, but hasn't been a premier pass rusher since 2011 when Tuck was still playing well. Strahan, Osi and Tuck were all premier guys .
he normally used a variety of blitzes with players from different levels, he picked this up from phi d coordinator the late jim johnson.
He used these blitz packages everywhere he went but New Orleans not sure why but according to his wiki
" Spagnuolo learned under Philadelphia coach Jim Johnson, and shares the same aggressive, blitz-heavy approach as his mentor. (He did not incorporate this philosophy during his time in New Orleans however)"
he normally used a variety of blitzes with players from different levels, he picked this up from phi d coordinator the late jim johnson.
He used these blitz packages everywhere he went but New Orleans not sure why but according to his wiki
" Spagnuolo learned under Philadelphia coach Jim Johnson, and shares the same aggressive, blitz-heavy approach as his mentor. (He did not incorporate this philosophy during his time in New Orleans however)"
Probably because he follows the HC wishes. Even though Payton was suspended you have to believe the tone at the top was in place and he didn't have the autonomy he needed.
It was 2008 after he was moved back to DE last minute after Osi got hurt in the Jet preseason game.
He played an excellent 2-way game that year, go back and look at his performance in Pittsburgh, among others.
No shit. He broke his leg in 2007 and injured his neck in 2010.
He had 4 sacks in the first 3 games of 2010 and looked outstanding early on before the neck injury and to my eyes, has not been the same player since.
So, I think the posters who are hesitant about the Giants rehiring him are certainly justified.
However, the Giants personnel fits very well with the type of D Spags likes to run. He likes to use multiple DL packages that emphasize quickness to get to the passer and getting into the backfield to disrupt running plays. He is not a guy who plugs up the middle with massive run-stopping DTs. Jenkins, Hankins and even Bromley would appear to be Spags type DTs. Moore, Wynn and Ayers are exactly the type of DEs he likes.
He puts a lot of responsibility on his corners to play press coverage and go one-on-one. Giants have two of the best in DRC and Prince.
He needs LBers and safeties who can blitz. Kennard has already demonstrated that he can blitz. Giants safeties were awful this year and need to be upgraded regardless of who becomes DC.
Giants were 5th in the league with 47 sacks, playing for a DC, who blitzed only reluctantly. With Spags in charge, this could be a very potent pass rush.
You can't have it both ways.
Safety is bad but the Taylor kid has flashed at times and Berhe is a hitter.
LB this is really a mess Kennard can be special williams is really a saftey
McClain is a pro but not fast you really have to design a defense that does not require good LBs or hope for a good draft here.
Inside Dline you have a budding star in Hankins but not much more Bromley could be something Kuhn is useless.
DE get JPP back put him at RDE like Strahan he can grow there. Moore is raw and Osi like but can get to the passer. Ayers was a nice find and could be the old vet Wynn can be a good platoon with Moore. This can be a strong unit but you have no 4 aces. Maybe you can do something with Kiwi.
Couple FA and draft moves and this defense can be a force again.
On the other hand, plenty of position coaches on the Giants have worked with - and won with - Spags.
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 5m5 minutes ago
Only 1 current Giants defensive player was here with Spags: Kiwanuka. And we know what will likely become of him.
50..50. If thats true and TC is fighting to
keep a bad coach he's nuts.
50..50. If thats true and TC is fighting to
keep a bad coach he's nuts.
Where do you see 50/50???
Quote:
Top reporters saying Fewell firing is
50..50. If thats true and TC is fighting to
keep a bad coach he's nuts.
Where do you see 50/50???
Mmmm. Slater's 50/50 sounds good about now. Ever been, Damon?
Quote:
Top reporters saying Fewell firing is
50..50. If thats true and TC is fighting to
keep a bad coach he's nuts.
Where do you see 50/50???
You can basically ignore every single post bossman makes.
Quote:
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
As far as 43 or 34, like I said, I don't care either way. If there was a time to make a chance this would be it. So if we chose to take it or not, I am not in favor of one over the other. Just as long as we hire a different coordinator, fine by me. Just give me an aggressive DC. It's too bad we can't get someone like Bowles or Horton. I loved what they did with Arizona. [/quote]
When Parcells used a 3/4 he had LT, Banks, Carson, Reasons, with Pepper Johnson as a reserve. That was an awesome group. Good LBs is also why the 49ers have been successful until several of them got injured this year. If you want to run a horse race, you need the horses.
Right now, the Giants LBs are mostly mediocre or worse. Kinnard has great potential & Beason can be good if he is not hurt. They have no one else to get excited about. To run a good 3/4 they would need at least 2 successful upgrades at the position & that is not likely. One of the things that I liked about Parcells & Spaguoulo is that they tailored their systems to the players & did not try to force the players into rigid roles that did not suit their talents, as you-know- does.
Reese , TC and Eli have done enough to prove to me that they know much more then anyone else on this forum.
so shut up and let it play out
Yeah, a secondary that has been ravaged by injuries. Do you even know about the Ravens' injury situation with their DBs?
I mean, was it lazy when the Steelers brought back Dick Lebough? No.
Exactly. The Spags critics are clueless. LeBeau came back to Pitt and was no longer a threat to become a HC elsewhere as well. I don't think Spags is going to go that route either at anytime in the near future. He's a natural fit.
He did benefit from a much better defensive line here than Fewell ever got, but there's no denying he had a lot of success, including holding the best offense in NFL history (at the time) to a mere 14 points in the Super Bowl.
Although I don't think he should be handed the job without looking at other candidates, the guy was a very good DC here during his short time and I would be happy to have him back.
Quote:
duplicate the Steelers coaching arrangement, with a long-term HC helped by a premier DC (LeBeau).
McAdoo = Tomlin
Spags = LeBeau
I had this same thought. After all the criticism of Coughlin's "coaching tree," it'd be hilarious if his final OC and DC followed him with a successful run.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote:
Hearing it is "50-50" that Fewell returns. Or is it "50-50" he is fired? Damn, I forgot to ask. Anyway, Giants still in process of deciding.
We have a few things to consider here:
Giants are very,very media sensitive and calculated in how they handle the media. They leak things out in deliberate fashion with a goal in mind. Fewell though thoroughly proven to not be a good fit for this defense (and perhaps not that great a DC) was a hard worker and company man. Bottomline, ownership are very loyal to those types.
They will at minimum work hard to make this look like a 'hard' decision to keep Fewell's stock as high as possible for future employment.
You think TC's comments weren't contrived and calculated when he said he wants to keep his whole staff intact?
However you sometimes never know with this ownership. The other part of this is the Giants are so loyal they can be blind to just how bad a fit a coordinator or coach is if he endears himself to the organization and is a high character person.
Though a sometimes admirable trait for an organization, let's hope it isnt the latter as this arguably is move that's been 2 years overdue at this point. Otherwise, we are throwing yet another year down the toilet.
Ravens 3rd Down Conversion 89/221.4027. Giants 72/200.360
Ravens pass defense 382/595 .642 11 int. Giants 324/522 .62 17
Ravens 49 sacks Giants 47.
Ravens passing yardsge: 4341. Giants 4163.
Talent evaluation: examine one Chykie Brown, who started 2 games in 4 years with Baltimore. They waived him. He started 4 games with the Giants, becoming Fewell's second best corner by the last month of the season.
Steve Spagnuolo owed his success with the Giants almost exclusively to the 4 Aces. In 07 he greatly benefitted by Strahan's Hall-of-Fame caliber play. Mike pulled a Koufax and retired at the top of his game. In 08 Tuck was the best defensive lineman in the game. Osi was in his prime. Should Spagnuolo return the sole remaining player from his 2-year stint with the Giants would be Kiwanuka, who everybody wants back. Whole different game now.
As for his benighted stay with the Saints, well, let us just say that we find out what is inside a guy when he faces adversity. But there is a comment above that is completely inaccurate. Rob Ryan took the unit over in 13. He had them 4th in total defense. 2 against the pass. 4 in sacks. & 4 in points allowed. And those are facts, not subjective colorations and cliched flash-card responses like "read and react," "Tampa 2," and "passive." Lousy personnel makes defenses appear passive because they cannot win their individual matches and are constantly behind the play. The Giants will soon have a new DC. Great they better get 4-5 new starters. Spags would be a lousy choice for DC. And this is my personal favorite about this situation: Spagnuolo is a Cover 2 coach. Is that irony?
I think the Giants are realizing more than ever that schemes with clearer communication that aim to dictate terms work so much more effectively at unleashing natural physical talent, rhythm, and passion from players rather than passive and defeatist attitudes of former systems that IMO was derailing for players and passion (gilbride,lewis, sheridan, fewell)
As Bill2 said, brilliance is also listening and being able to get out of your own way. One of the few times Fewell got out of his own way was during the stretch run in 2011 when he adjusted the defense because there were 'miscommunications" (sound familiar?) occurring. I remember in the weeks prior to the close of the regular season Kenny Philips alluded to changes in scheme and communication that would help the defense know their roles, become more aggressive, and excel. Phillips was almost cocky in how much he felt these changes would help the team, and that always stuck with me. From there on out, the defense looked much more sure and aggressive. We all know the rest of the story.
I was also one of the major advocates for a new offensive system last year (really for many years) and would have leaped from the Empire State Building if Sullivan was hired. I always felt Eli was at least a 30+ td and low teens int guy. This year he's pretty much proven that. Throw out that SF game and Eli was pretty much at that 30+/10 line, with a mediocre o-line, and young and suspect talent. And there's been no aw shucks, cruddy body language. Eli's looked his most passionate ever, and I think that stems from him knowing it's in his hands, and can't be ripped away by insane numbers of miscommunications. I think the defense is at this crossroads with Fewell.
Now let's look at the defense. Why does it seem that every year Fewell has to adjust the playbook so guys don't miscommunicate? In my world, if it's to the point where guys are fucking up too often, maybe you're trying to be too smart for your own good. The one thing Spags was very good at was ensuring is that if you're going to lose, let it be on the merit of the players, but go after it... Spags played aggressive, to win the game, and allowed a player to play with their god given physical skill set. In a primal sort of way, this sort of system is very energizing. Ask Corey Webster what it did for him when he was no longer having his talent railroaded and stranded on Tim Lewis' Cover 3 island. That's the same passive crap as rushing 3 and dropping 8 into coverage, begging to be picked apart. You tell me which you'd rather play in?
As other posters have alluded to, which is my hunch as well... The Giants could very well be setting themselves up with two coaches in McAdoo and Spaguolo that could potentially be paired together for a long time to come. The Tomlin and Lebeau comparison's aren't far off, and what a great situation that would be if it could work out that way. Spags is already 55, he's approaching that area where he could become a long-term DC. Continuity is king if you have the right ingredients. The Steelers do. We can too.
I think most exciting of all is having two coordinators with philosophies that don't allow us to beat ourselves, schemes players have shown they enjoy playing in, and systems that play to win in an excitable and aggressive fashion putting the onus on the players...
What's not to like? Let's do this NYG. Welcome back Spags.
Unfortunately, people will just keep believing what they want to believe. Spags gets the injury excuse but it doesn't apply to Fewell.
And the Cover 2 stuff is really the best.
I'm not calling for a hero's welcome for Spags, but he's an upgrade. His Rams and New Orleans stints weren't any more embarrassing than Gilbride's San Diego stint, LeBeau's Cincy stint, or Josh McDaniels' Denver debacle - and those guys all returned to their former masters and excelled as coordinators.
I'm not calling for a hero's welcome for Spags, but he's an upgrade. His Rams and New Orleans stints weren't any more embarrassing than Gilbride's San Diego stint, LeBeau's Cincy stint, or Josh McDaniels' Denver debacle - and those guys all returned to their former masters and excelled as coordinators.
That defense won a Super Bowl.
not the best option, but an option I wouldn't HATE.
If Spags comes back, I will back him 100% and hope for the best. I just am not going to expect much unless the personnel improves because no one is fielding a top 10 defense with the guys Fewell had this year.
Fewell
2010: 21.7 ppg, 16th
2011: 25 ppg, 24th
2012: 21.5 ppg, 12th
2013: 23.9 ppg, 18th
2014: 25 ppg, 22nd
Spags:
2007: 21.9, 17th
2008: 18.4, 5th
The 2008 team was obviously a great team - the defense was a big part of the reason we made it back to the playoffs.
We could arguably for the first time in the TC era have BOTH offensive and defensive systems that are player friendly and take best advantage of our players.
BP in NJ : 1:03 pm : link : reply
stats are misleading.n 2009 was Bill Sheridan if i'm not mistaken, and he was the worst DC in the history of football...
When defenses are ranked, why are they ranked by the yardage they give up? What does yardage have to do with win/losses?
It's points allowed, to me, that determines how good a defense is....
Sheridan's defense was ranked 13th, yes....in freakin' yardage......they were 30th in points.....
As for Spag's, I have no idea why he would want to come here.....he would be expected to turn this team right around....when he came here, the players were in place, for the most part....and he got the most out of them.....
At this very moment, this defense has no linebackers or safties....injured corners.....the best DLman may be leaving....one solid DT.....the rest either have no experience or are stop gap at best....
Any DC, would need the help of a good GM to get him the players he needs.....this could easily be a 2-3 year rebuild on defense.....
Spag's would be coming back to a nightmare......he'd be crazy to accept this job.....and as mentioned, who wants to be DC, with TC year to year, unless there is a promise of being the head coach....
The question should be, 'does Spags' previous seasons with the Giants give him a leg up, an advantage, on rebuilding the Giants D? As opposed to DC's who've never been with the team at all. Is there some kind of intangible that could be at work here with Spags and not with someone else.
All kidding aside, I'd rather have an up and coming name that impresses the front office (like McAdoo) for the defense. The only thing we know for sure about Spags is that we have no idea at this point if he's a good defensive coordinator. I loved his constant blitzing attitude and I think in today's NFL that is how you have to play, but he was just God awful in New Orleans.
Part of the problem is a lack of athleticism. Part of it is we are either undisciplined or lacking in mental capacity. Can't tell from my couch which it is, I'd have to be in practice a few days to figure out what the fuck is wrong with them.
The drops are text book from what I can see. The reaction from there is comic book.
Re. the meltdown against the read option in the Seahawks game, however, Dorgan unloaded on Fewell with both barrels (bold face added for emphasis):
The shallow chase works somewhat against strict zone run, but never against veer or zone read.
I'm not a guy who calls for coaches' heads, but he needs to go. No ifs, ands or buts. Firing him today is a year too late for my taste.
Fewell was trying to use a switch call with the OLB or the CB on contain, but several times we were in man coverage and the two defenders he's got on QB are dropping into coverage.
Just a recipe for disaster. I hate shallow chase concepts except when you're up against a zone run team. It can be effective then when the RB tries for the backside cut, but against any type of option it puts too much pressure on your OLBers and CBs. Coupling the shallow chase switch call with man coverage is completely unsound.
It leaves you with NO ONE on the QB.
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In comment 12060831 PatersonPlank said:
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Not sure I am a fan of rehiring him, frankly I can take it or leave it, but he did have success with injuries.
But he had Strahan still playing at a high level and starving for a title, Tuck, Osi, Cofield, Kiwi all young and hungry and fast getting after the QB. Who wold he have now?
Moore, Wynn, Hankins, Kennard, possibly JPP
Which of these is a premier pass rusher? Wynn is a guy off the street, Moore is still a maybe. Kennard too, he played just 4 games. JPP a good player, but hasn't been a premier pass rusher since 2011 when Tuck was still playing well. Strahan, Osi and Tuck were all premier guys .
He used these blitz packages everywhere he went but New Orleans not sure why but according to his wiki
" Spagnuolo learned under Philadelphia coach Jim Johnson, and shares the same aggressive, blitz-heavy approach as his mentor. (He did not incorporate this philosophy during his time in New Orleans however)"
He used these blitz packages everywhere he went but New Orleans not sure why but according to his wiki
" Spagnuolo learned under Philadelphia coach Jim Johnson, and shares the same aggressive, blitz-heavy approach as his mentor. (He did not incorporate this philosophy during his time in New Orleans however)"
Probably because he follows the HC wishes. Even though Payton was suspended you have to believe the tone at the top was in place and he didn't have the autonomy he needed.
That's pure speculation. Just my guess