Mike Garafolo & #8207;@MikeGarafolo
Mentioned on air a little bit ago there's been a steady drumbeat about a possible return to NYG for Steve Spagnuolo that isn't going away.
but fact remains this team needs talent so that the new DC whoever he is can be agressive and not have to worry that he is leaving a bad player on an island...
Things are way, way easier when you have a hall of famer (Strahan), a speed demon strip master (Osi), and a rock solid steady presence (Tuck) all on your defensive line at the same time. A line good enough where a player like Kiwi before his injuries can be your 4th option.
I think this would be a bad hire. I think he was an OK DC coordinator when here, bolstered by a supremely talented DL. Since he left, he was a joke as a HC, did absolutely nothing in NO except have one of the worst defenses ever, and then took a big step backward in terms of responsibility in Baltimore. I haven't watched enough of their games to make a judgement, but I will point out that while their D overall is decent, he is a secondary coach for one of the worst passing Ds in terms of yardage.
is ok here to defend TC and the results the Giants have had the last few years but gets ignored when looking at other coaches from other teams or even our own assistants.
if it fails, it fails. this is tom's last stand and i'm OK reuniting him with spags for it
Spags 2 stops were at STL (sh#tty organization, horrible injury situation) and NO in the year following Bounty-gate sanctions. since then he hasn't ran a Defense. are we really going to hold the black hole of a year following Bountygate against him??? that is beyond insane. he wasnt up to the job turning the Rams around - and IMO he's not a Head Coach - so be it. that speaks nothing to his abilities as a DC
what we do know is that he was a great fit here, as a defensive coordinator, and had us convinced to make him the highest paid asst. coach in the league b4 he left
give this guy prince, drc and thurmond at CB and let him play press-man
Things are way, way easier when you have a hall of famer (Strahan), a speed demon strip master (Osi), and a rock solid steady presence (Tuck) all on your defensive line at the same time. A line good enough where a player like Kiwi before his injuries can be your 4th option.
Year 2 here he didn't have Strahan and Osi and he seemed to do okay, no?
and not well thought out decision? We need a new Defensive Coordinator? Ummm, what's the last guy who was here before Perry doing? He was pretty good.
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
He took the first HCing job that was offered. So can't fault him for that because you never know when you might get offered another one.
The Saints DC position was a poor choice especially since Sean P. was suspended as well as players and other coaches. So just a bad choice in wanting to go there. That team has issues across the board.
I understand you the choice though. After a failed HCing gig, you want to bring your stock back up and chose the Saints. However, the situation surrounding the team made the chose not a good one.
I think our franchise is stable enough to offer him a chance to bring his stock back up.
Things are way, way easier when you have a hall of famer (Strahan), a speed demon strip master (Osi), and a rock solid steady presence (Tuck) all on your defensive line at the same time. A line good enough where a player like Kiwi before his injuries can be your 4th option.
Umm 2008 he only had Tuck and Kiwi at defensive end and the giants defense was 3rd in the NFL...
So he did prove he could have a good defense without Strahan and Osi...
their secondary was James Butler and Michael Johnson as their starters, Phllips was a rookie, Webster and Ross were the corners, The LBs were Blackburn, Pierce and Danny Clark..
So where was the talent on that defense that still ranked 3rd in the NFL?
RE: He's been terrible at everything he's tried since he left here.
is Spags body of work here in NY. He was here two seasons and the D never sucked. Even in 2008 when Strahan was done and Osi was hurt--the D still played well. That's all I know...
I can't put too much into what happened with the Saints but it's a little concerning. I don't think Spags is Tom Landry redux but he's had great success in NY--he's worked with Coughlin and he's looking for a job. It makes sense. I'd prefer Spags over Fewell that's for sure.
for spending so much time prior to us as a position coach? Aside from his one or two good years here (and there was a down year in there, too), he's been a failure at anything but position.
I don't think it would be good to bring him back. bring in an up and comer, not a one (or two) year wonder who hasn't been anything since.
RE: Doesn't this seem like it would be a really lazy
and not well thought out decision? We need a new Defensive Coordinator? Ummm, what's the last guy who was here before Perry doing? He was pretty good.
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
This is a very fair point. Reminds me of all the Mike Sullivan/OC talk last offseason, before we ultimately (and wisely) changed systems completely. We're going the safer route here.
round DE should, and Tuck was prime form. Both Cofield and Robbins were really good at DT. Pierce started out the season well until his neck started to bother him.
Let's stop with pretending the 2008 defense was talentless. Perry Fewell would have sacrificed a small animal or twenty for that DL alone.
They know what Spags is worth, the good and the bad. The devil you know and all that.
I'd like to see them go in a different direction, but honestly, I don't know who the available candidates are. There's not one position coach or available proven DC sitting out there that I can point to and say 'why don't they go after him?'. I'd love to see them approach Fangio of SF, but he's traditionally been a 3-4 guy and we don't have the personnel to swing that.
RE: RE: Doesn't this seem like it would be a really lazy
and not well thought out decision? We need a new Defensive Coordinator? Ummm, what's the last guy who was here before Perry doing? He was pretty good.
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
This is a very fair point. Reminds me of all the Mike Sullivan/OC talk last offseason, before we ultimately (and wisely) changed systems completely. We're going the safer route here.
It's different though. Sully was never an OC. Spags was our DC that changed our defense with the same personnel Tim Lewis had. We own a SB with him as the DC.
Coach Sully never was an OC for us or anyone else.
As DC of NO he was bad but so is that defense plus the Saints had other issues going on. I think in the Giants organization under Coughlin he will strive again and fit right back in. I would like to see a new LB coach though added to the team.
What'd he do when he didn't have Strahan, a young Tuck, a young Osi, Fred Robbins, Antonio Pierce, a young Webster, veterans like Madison and McQuarters?
I concede there are two ways to look at that. One is you need talent to show your talent, and he didn't have that type of talent in the other places he went. I agree. But the other way to look at it is maybe he's not that good to begin with and his warts were hidden by the talent he had with the Giants.
I have nothing against him, and don't see any scenario where he does any worse than what the Giants have had, but I'd like them to go in a different direction and hire someone new. Give a position coach from somewhere else his big break.
and not well thought out decision? We need a new Defensive Coordinator? Ummm, what's the last guy who was here before Perry doing? He was pretty good.
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
This. Really disappointed at the lack of effort by the front office if this rumor comes true.
Mike Sullivan last year, everyone had pegged Sullivan to return as OC for the giants,
granted the reason he wasn't brought back was they wanted a new system,
but i think everyone has rose colored glasses when it comes to spags, i would rather grab a hot DC candidate from SF, Arizona, or Seattle, much like the way we brought in Spags, cherry pick the better teams of their assistants.
this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
But if Spags is brought in to replace him I wonder if Strahan and the others might be able to convince him to stay because it will be worth it to play under Spags. May not mean a thing to him but it might.
but I don't understand why he'd want the gig. If he wants to be a HC again, he obviously needs a successful stint as a DC, but strictly looking at the optics of the situation, returning to the Giants, under the same HC, doesn't make him look like a guy who's deserving of another chance. Even if he does well.
Provided they did their due diligence aka talking to guys like Pepper, Jim Tomsula, etc.
If TC feels more comfortable with Spags than anyone else, it seems reasonable given he was Coughlin's only good DC hire. I'd just hate for him to be forced on TC because of the past or familiarity.
Actually, compared to the defenses lately, 2008 was the Seahawks.
The depth on the DL to be able to retire Strahan and lose Osi and still be what they were up until the last couple weeks, when they physically broke down too much, was pretty amazing. The LBs and S were both better then too, on the whole.
It's honestly a bit depressing to think about what's become of this team, talent-wise, since then.
this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
How folks come to the conclusion that McAdoo is a head coach material is beyond me, especially with no experience.
Is better than Fewel even if he wasn't
succesful post Giants. He may be
our best choice since Mara wont
$$$ for top coach. Keep in mind
we have some issues on offense too.
Eli can't move...oline sucks..need
rb who can catch...w/o 13 we
suck.. worse oline..wr..te..coaches
in league..ect.
and not well thought out decision? We need a new Defensive Coordinator? Ummm, what's the last guy who was here before Perry doing? He was pretty good.
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
He's a guy that many Giants fans liked and he was successful here. Many of us loved he used the Jim Johnson defense and would try to pressure the opposition. I think there is a foundation in place so don't agree with anything lazy about wanting a coach we liked based on scheme and the historical success he had with the Giants.
They know what Spags is worth, the good and the bad. The devil you know and all that.
I'd like to see them go in a different direction, but honestly, I don't know who the available candidates are. There's not one position coach or available proven DC sitting out there that I can point to and say 'why don't they go after him?'. I'd love to see them approach Fangio of SF, but he's traditionally been a 3-4 guy and we don't have the personnel to swing that.
this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
How folks come to the conclusion that McAdoo is a head coach material is beyond me, especially with no experience.
It comes from people thinking, despite all evidence to the contrary, that ownership has given even a second's thought to who will replace Coughlin when he's finished here. Like they were the ones who hired McAdoo, and not just that, but they hired him so they could, one day, promote him to HC, regardless of how he performed as an OC.
this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
How many DC vacancies generally come with top notch defensive players in place?
He took the first HCing job that was offered. So can't fault him for that because you never know when you might get offered another one.
My memory is lousy, but didn't he walk away from a shot at the Redskins HC position?
I am in the same boat. I am not sure about the redskins. Sounds familiar but not sure. I do remember Marc Ross turning down to interview with the Jets, lol.
I am not sure about the redskins. Perhaps it was the possibility of working with the owner. I don't fault him for taking the very first offer. Look how long it took for Bruce Arians to finally make it as a HC. He was basically retired and came back and had success and then got his HCing chance.
I feel bad for coaches that want their shot and a bad franchise is the first to offer it. Chud got fired after 1 year. You're screwing around with peoples lives and their families. Moving into a new city, and kids going to school, and then in 1 year uprooting that. I hate when those bad franchises do that to their coaches.
I don't think any other DC candidate would join the Giants
This is possibly a one and done situation in 2015 if the team doesn't rebound. I can see Spags being the only one accepting this job because he knows Tom Coughlin and the Giants.
defenses, minus the first two and a half games of his tenure here, were the best, BY FAR, of the Tom Coughlin era. Those saying it was much more talented really are mistaken. Pierce was our best LBer, and was just above average. The team was rolling to another SB in 08 (minus Stray and Osi) when Plax shot himself and Pierce was with him. Brought the whole team down. Bringing back a guy who had great success with TC makes sense. Let's face it, they don't make the playoffs next year, no one will be back.
but his best work came in 2008, a season during which he did not have Strahan, Osi, or Kawika Mitchell. Among the starters on that defense (5th in the NFL in points allowed) were Danny Clark, James Butler, and Michael Johnson.
I remember him as having an excellent ability to dictate a suboptimal play to a QB on third down. My favorite defensive play the Giants have run in many years was the corner blitz on 3rd and 7+ that would cause the QB and WR to run a hot slant right into Kenny Phillips. The result was almost always a 6 yard gain and a punt.
If Spags is the guy it raises the importance of the safety position even more. Need smart players that will take good angles.
is probably just somebody they like as the NFL is like the NBA, a bunch of retreads. The variation in skill is not that great and really comes down to if players are bought in and care to perform together in unison with the coaching. One problem I see with this defense moving forward is the incredible lack of speed, beyond the horrid talent at various spots.
They need to overhaul the coaching staff, inject more youth and college element to up-level the speed and athleticism. Carroll and Harbaugh learned some things prior to coming from/back the college ranks. When you can't stop a college read option it is very telling of the coaching and the players and more important the overal APPROACH to the game.
why so many people on this board are so aghast at possibly hiring back Spags?
While here, he was the DC of a Super Bowl winning team, and the 3rd ranked another season.
While here, he was beloved by the players and the fans.
Yes he stumbled as a HC, but lots of top assistants don't make it as the top guy. And some times, it takes a failure (See Bill Belicheck) to learn how to be successful as a head coach.
I'd love this choice and I bet the players would too.
1) He was a rookie DC when he was here...and did well in year one...most people get better if only from a "been here" sense of confidence that radiates
2) He was a LB coach prior to that...a long ignored aspect of the Giants in FO and coaching mindshare that in the new NFL has resonance.
3) He won here with TC...newbies cannot argue with the idea that he knows something
4) Being through the rigors of an NFL Season at HC/DC since then teaches you from your failures and successes...and teaches you how to reach a wider variety of players and helps you understand what works and what does not
5) Spags was liked by his players because he listened
6) One mark of a good DC is not what scheme he favors...I think that may be over rated...but what evidence there is that he got players to play better?...and within a year?
In one year, Spags got (now not all due to him...but getting out of the way is genius and so is overwhelming evidence he got the best out of what he had):
A great year from OSi (on the run and the pass defense...last guy to get OSi to play run? Remember his game against Walter Jones that year?)
A great year from Tuck
one more good year from Strahan
Ditto Robbins
The best years AP and Mitchell ever had
The best year Corey Webster ever had after a few bad ones
a big contribution from Sam Madison
Ditto young players and rookies like Aaron Ross and Alford
Ditto JAGS like McQuarters, James Butler, Dockery, Gibril Wilson.
In sum...young, old, stars and Jags at all three levels...Dl, LB and DB all were reached,played and felt a part of something big and worked hard and studied and got better and better. Against all different kinds of schemes and challenges as the season went on.
Accident? Maybe....but you would be arguing against a lot of data. Some credit (even if getting out of the way) has to be given.
if it is Spags? A lot of reasons to think its a good thing
this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
fair point by the eagleman; any prospective DC who has designs on becoming HC in the near- or intermediate term will likely not take this vacancy (assuming, God-willing, it occurs) as a must-sign on opportunity. And this improves the odds on a hire such as Spags
I'm wondering if the Giants ownership long-term plan isn't to
and ensure we get to the QB. That's the name of the game now. I also think Spags would be looking to rebuild his reputation here. I think the guy can clearly coach defense. I also don't think we'll be scratching our heads at confused alignments and missed coverages with Spags either.
Definitely worth another shot here in my estimation.
Many respected posters on here will go to the ends of the earth to defend Gilbride, yet never miss a chance to shit on Spags. I wish we'd have ditched Fewell for Spags last season, but the Giants have been a year late on a lot of things lately.
RE: I'm wondering if the Giants ownership long-term plan isn't to
I am alwso swayed by the effect Spags had on individual players.
Remember when Michael Johnson looked like an emerging young NFL star? And Spags effect on Corey Webster alone justified his employment as Giants DC. I'd be really interested in seeing what Spags could do with Prince.
Also, not to mention, he took the same personnel that Tim Lewis had and increased sacks by 21 sacks just by implementing his aggressive scheme. He made use of guys like Webster, Michael Johnson, and James Butler.
Excellent use of players and personnel, and his scheme took the same players and added 21 sacks to the 2006 total of Tim Lewis.
an up and coming DC probably will want to build his own staff on the defensive side of the ball. The giants will not want to blow up the whole defensive staff. Spags is already familiar with everyone on the staff and has a good working relationship with the coaches. It seems like a lock if you look at this way.
I think Peter Guinta has done a good job as DB Coach
We've had garbage at DB since thurmond and prince went down. We've done ok back there for what we have to work with. I'd say players being out of position and miscommunication falls on Fewell for the most part.
RE: I'm wondering if the Giants ownership long-term plan isn't to
duplicate the Steelers coaching arrangement, with a long-term HC helped by a premier DC (LeBeau).
McAdoo = Tomlin
Spags = LeBeau
I had this same thought. After all the criticism of Coughlin's "coaching tree," it'd be hilarious if his final OC and DC followed him with a successful run.
1) He was a rookie DC when he was here...and did well in year one...most people get better if only from a "been here" sense of confidence that radiates
2) He was a LB coach prior to that...a long ignored aspect of the Giants in FO and coaching mindshare that in the new NFL has resonance.
3) He won here with TC...newbies cannot argue with the idea that he knows something
4) Being through the rigors of an NFL Season at HC/DC since then teaches you from your failures and successes...and teaches you how to reach a wider variety of players and helps you understand what works and what does not
5) Spags was liked by his players because he listened
6) One mark of a good DC is not what scheme he favors...I think that may be over rated...but what evidence there is that he got players to play better?...and within a year?
In one year, Spags got (now not all due to him...but getting out of the way is genius and so is overwhelming evidence he got the best out of what he had):
A great year from OSi (on the run and the pass defense...last guy to get OSi to play run? Remember his game against Walter Jones that year?)
A great year from Tuck
one more good year from Strahan
Ditto Robbins
The best years AP and Mitchell ever had
The best year Corey Webster ever had after a few bad ones
a big contribution from Sam Madison
Ditto young players and rookies like Aaron Ross and Alford
Ditto JAGS like McQuarters, James Butler, Dockery, Gibril Wilson.
In sum...young, old, stars and Jags at all three levels...Dl, LB and DB all were reached,played and felt a part of something big and worked hard and studied and got better and better. Against all different kinds of schemes and challenges as the season went on.
Accident? Maybe....but you would be arguing against a lot of data. Some credit (even if getting out of the way) has to be given.
if it is Spags? A lot of reasons to think its a good thing
Excellent analysis!
Unlike Antdog I've been very suspicious of the job Giunta has been
And then realised Bill had summed it up about ten timbut es more effectively.
It just makes too much sense. You need someone who can come here and win now with TC. Spags is the obvious candidate.
On top of that he is the only guy who really has looked the part since John Fox. I think of Spags' time here and I think of a teacher. He was always teaching. Even during a game you'd see him working with a DT on a swim move or a DB on hand placement. I just had so much confidence in him and you can see why the players did.
Final thought. BBI has some absolute puppets posting but we also have some very smart ones and usually BBI's collective assessment of someone is worth something. BBI loved Spags and I think that should count for something.
So... On the record... I'd take Spags back in a heartbeat.
this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
Totally agree with this. There is great uncertainty and no clear path to the next job for a DC coming here. This actually seems like a pretty decent option.
Also, not to mention, he took the same personnel that Tim Lewis had and increased sacks by 21 sacks just by implementing his aggressive scheme. He made use of guys like Webster, Michael Johnson, and James Butler.
Excellent use of players and personnel, and his scheme took the same players and added 21 sacks to the 2006 total of Tim Lewis.
Remember when Tim Lewis wasn't the problem?
This whole anti-Spags thing has become a weird little item
of BBI received wisdom, and I'm not quite sure why. Yeah, he flopped with the Rams - who gives a shit? Dick LeBeau flopped with the Bengals in a similar situation (ace DC struggling with a horrid franchise). Didn't have much of anything to do with LeBeau's abilities as a DC.
The Saints thing was a fucking fiasco from stem to stern long before Spags had anything to do with them. Their defense was light on talent to begin with. There was an interim head coach. The "leaders" of the defense were loyal to Williams and pretty much said before the season that they were going to ignore whoever replaced him. I have no idea why that clusterfuck is supposed to outweigh the outstanding work he did as the Giants DC.
but if you're a position coach who wants to HC someday, I'd think you'll take an unattractive option over staying where you are. Because if you stay a position coach and your unit underperforms (whether it's your fault or not), you can find yourself even farther away from being a HC than you would've been otherwise.
This is the Giants, it's a well run org and a unit that has underperformed. DCs looking for work (potential DCs currently position coaches and established DCs) are walking into situations like these, that's why the position was open in the first place.
I don't think it's a question of how desirable the job is, it's a question of who the best available candidate is, and how well they fit with the existing organizational structure and personnel.
this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
Totally agree with this. There is great uncertainty and no clear path to the next job for a DC coming here. This actually seems like a pretty decent option.
Yes, the uncertainty regarding coughlin makes this a bit tough for anyone who isn't signing on to increase their profile and visibility (like McAdoo did) or rehabilitate their profile (like Spags would)
Also, not to mention, he took the same personnel that Tim Lewis had and increased sacks by 21 sacks just by implementing his aggressive scheme. He made use of guys like Webster, Michael Johnson, and James Butler.
Excellent use of players and personnel, and his scheme took the same players and added 21 sacks to the 2006 total of Tim Lewis.
Remember when Tim Lewis wasn't the problem?
I never liked him or Hufangel hire. I have family in Pittsburgh that are die hard Steelers fans, and they had Lewis as a DC. As soon as we hired Lewis, they told me he would be an issue. I remember talking to them and reading articles in their media about Lewis, and I wasn't a fan of the hire.
It's amazing how Spags took that personnel and increase productivity of it. He basically took Webster who was yelled at by Lewis, and made him into a damn good CB.
I don't know what other people thought on here, but I hated the two initial hires by Coughlin when he came here in 2004.
The O gave up so many short fields and the Special Teams gave up so many points and short fields that the yardage ... which is the # that determines the ranking was skewed.
When the other team only has to go on a 25 yard TD drive... You didn't give up many yards... Not because you were good..
these guys have families they have to uproot, too. Yes, it's a nomadic lifestyle anyway you slice it, but joining a lame duck HC who's 70 years old might not be the best option, should other DC jobs come available. As others have pointed out, the Giants might be looking at McAdoo/Spags as a long-term partnership.
these guys have families they have to uproot, too. Yes, it's a nomadic lifestyle anyway you slice it, but joining a lame duck HC who's 70 years old might not be the best option, should other DC jobs come available. As others have pointed out, the Giants might be looking at McAdoo/Spags as a long-term partnership.
Most of these guys are aspiring to be HCs - with any luck, after a year or two (or more, depending on the situation) they're hoping to have performed well enough to get a promotion, which will once again uproot them.
I don't think there's anything about this spot that would be considered undesirable compared to other available DC positions, save those that might become available on playoff/contending teams where the DC was elevated to HC elsewhere. Anyone else with an open DC spot is going to have all sorts of warts to deal with.
Also, not to mention, he took the same personnel that Tim Lewis had and increased sacks by 21 sacks just by implementing his aggressive scheme. He made use of guys like Webster, Michael Johnson, and James Butler.
Excellent use of players and personnel, and his scheme took the same players and added 21 sacks to the 2006 total of Tim Lewis.
Remember when Tim Lewis wasn't the problem?
I never liked him or Hufangel hire. I have family in Pittsburgh that are die hard Steelers fans, and they had Lewis as a DC. As soon as we hired Lewis, they told me he would be an issue. I remember talking to them and reading articles in their media about Lewis, and I wasn't a fan of the hire.
It's amazing how Spags took that personnel and increase productivity of it. He basically took Webster who was yelled at by Lewis, and made him into a damn good CB.
I don't know what other people thought on here, but I hated the two initial hires by Coughlin when he came here in 2004.
Didn't mean it was you who said that. Just that there was a crew back then who stated the same line, it's a talent issue not a coaching issue.
I liked Spags and liked his style. Wouldn't mind him, but also wouldn't mind if they decided to go another route after they interview other candidates.
the Jim Johnson defense he ran most of the time in 07 & 08 sounds good to me. Once he left Coughlin went right back to his Jacksonville defense with Sheridan and Fewell and that's more out of date and broken than his offense was with Gilbride.
in the league for a move like this, look up in NE with McDaniels.
You can argue that McDaniels was as bad, if not worse with Denver as Spags was in St. Louis and he seems to be doing well in his old role. I don't think anyone can realistically grade him for his time in New Orleans and given the circumstances there, his biggest mistake was committing to that job in the first place.
I'd like them to call some other candidates, but Spags definitely gives me a certain level of comfort just hearing his name.
but for him to be successful we'll need at least one or two more DL (one DE and one DT) to run his NASCAR package and we'll have to significantly upgrade at safety. Someone upthread said that Gibril Wilson was a JAG...he was actually a solid safety and we'd kill for someone even that good at S now
Bringing back Spags means that a guy like Justin Houston becomes target #1 (smaller DE-OLB tweener type who is an awesome pass rusher) and a guy like McCourty at FS becomes a major target too because we'll need a safety to organize the back when Spags sends his blitzes
For those knocking Spags saying he did it with a ton of talent
1. Many of you are likely the same people who said we lacked talent when Lewis was our DC one season before Spags arrived
2. Even if he did win with a very talented roster he beat a favored Dallas team with a decimated safety corps in the playoffs and always seemed to have the team playing consistently well despite key injuries or not.
Aside from a 6 game stretch in 2011, We were lucky if Fewell could get the team to play consistent without a ton of blown assignments and guys wide open in the secondary with or without key injuries.
Spags proved he could win and have a consistently dominant defense with good talent. This team if it keeps JPP will boast an emerging Moore, Ayers (who was arguably our best DE in the first half), Wynn for DE's (which will be will well above average and better than most teams in the NFL. Hankins who is quickly becoming a top DT in the league and likely a couple additions.
In the secondary he will have Prince, DRC which is one of the better CB tandems in the NFL and likely some solid depth like Trumaine and/or Thurmond as Reese has been focusing on CB depth.
His LB corp wasnt ever that amazingly great and will have similiar talent here as well with a promising Kennard, Williams,McClain and hopefully a healthy Beason and a couple additions draft or via FA.
With all that said, I don't know if Spags would be the absolute best choice of all the available candidates but I would be amazed if he doesn't have this unit playing worlds better and much more consistent than Fewell ever did.
I would be pretty optimistic and albeit cautiously excited with this hire. (And we might see a blitz or two that actually works to boot!)
His defenses here were always good with the Giants. Always. Nobody wanted him to leave and many wanted him to be the freaking head coach. So just stop with these looking backwards and not forward bullshit posts.
Let's also stop any mention of St. Louis like that is relevant. First, that team sucked. Second, there are many coaches who are great coordinators but not good head coaches. Spags may very well be one of those. You don't want Norv Turner as your HC but you sure as hell want him as your OC.
And his New Orleans defense was very bad yes. But it's also been very bad since. There is only so much you can do when the talent isn't there. Rex Ryan knows defense but the Jets D this year sucked because there is only so much you can do without talent.
Some people may use that last point in defense of Fewell. I say that is BS. Fewell routinely was in the bottom 5 defenses in the NFL and every year with the one exception where we played like 5 backup QBs was not due to injury or lack of talent.
Spags defense was predicated on press man coverage (fits well with DRC and Prince and possibly Thurmond if brought back).
Haven't read the whole thread so this may have been addressed
but it seems that with a HC on the last year of his contract and the concomitant possibility (probability?) of upheaval after next year, it may be tough to attract a top-flight DC candidate. Under the circumstances, a Spagnolo-type candidate may be the best we can get.
I get "What have you done for me lately?" thinking. I don't get "What have you done for someone else lately?".
Spagnuolo was very successful as Giants DC. No matter what else he has done or not done with other teams and organizations, he was still very successful as Giants DC.
He knows TC, JR and ownership, they know him. All sides know they can work together. Big plus.
He needs to rebuild his reputation. That's actually a plus for the Giants, IMO.
RE: Haven't read the whole thread so this may have been addressed
In comment 12060359 lawguy9801 said:
[quote] but it seems that with a HC on the last year of his contract and the concomitant possibility (probability?) of upheaval after next year, it may be tough to attract a top-flight DC candidate. Under the circumstances, a Spagnolo-type candidate may be the best we can get. [/quote
define "top-flight" coordinator. Not trying to be sarcastic but who do you consider to be in that category
But I would love it... Spags took the guys he had and crafted a D to their strengths... Didn't force guys into "his system like Fewell." He got career years out of a number of guys on D. He flushed the A gap with pressure to keep guys from stepping up in the pocket and then let his DE's wreak havoc. With the cover guys on the current roster, DRC, Prince, etc.. Spags would have a field day moving JPP around and bringing back an aces package that would have Kenard JPP, Ayres, and Moore with their ears pinned back... Nightmare for opposing QBs.
Sign me up!
RE: Spags brother was a sales rep that used to call on us.
People are somewhat under-rating what he had to work with when he was here, but hell, why not?. I am sure he's had some time to think while he has been in exile which would be a benefit as well.
Well said, but I'd still like to consider other candidates before allowing Spags to return as DC. He was pretty bad after he left, albeit in some poor situations.
RE: RE: Spags brother was a sales rep that used to call on us.
We've had garbage at DB since thurmond and prince went down. We've done ok back there for what we have to work with. I'd say players being out of position and miscommunication falls on Fewell for the most part.
How the hell can you say this with the way our secondary for YEARS has had breakdowns and WRs running wild at times. I never understand why we think this guy is so great.
I'm too young to remember the LT/Belicheck/Tuna era of Giants D
but we can all agree those powerhouse defenses have had a lasting legacy, not only in our team's history, but within the league as a whole.
The two seasons that Spags ran the defense is really the only time I can remember be EXCITED at the prospect of our D taking the field. It seemed as if every time that defense went out, there was always a force fumble, INT, or a major hit that would make you get to your feet and cheer.
I don't think it's about accountability,because if that were the case,people higher up would get it.This is about finding a pigeon,and Coughlin has the deck stacked in his favor.So he might end up with the biggest office in the Timex when it's all over with.With Mara setting up shop outside in the middle of the weeds.
RE: RE: RE: Spags brother was a sales rep that used to call on us.
This team on defense sucks. If there was any time to make a system change it would be now. It's not like we are a player or so away on defense. We could use an upgrade almost everywhere. CB is the most complete position out of the defense. However, with the defense the way it is, this would be a time if one wanted felt like it to make that system change.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
This team on defense sucks. If there was any time to make a system change it would be now. It's not like we are a player or so away on defense. We could use an upgrade almost everywhere. CB is the most complete position out of the defense. However, with the defense the way it is, this would be a time if one wanted felt like it to make that system change.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
I'm a little more bullish on the D talent especially if we keep JPP and find a suitable replacement for Rolle. I also believe there will be a couple well placed Jerry Reese shrewd additions (like we saw with Ayers last year).
If we hire a good DC with a system that actually fits our personell, I see a turnaround somewhat similiar to what we had from Lewis when we went to Spags.
This team on defense sucks. If there was any time to make a system change it would be now. It's not like we are a player or so away on defense. We could use an upgrade almost everywhere. CB is the most complete position out of the defense. However, with the defense the way it is, this would be a time if one wanted felt like it to make that system change.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
I'm a little more bullish on the D talent especially if we keep JPP and find a suitable replacement for Rolle. I also believe there will be a couple well placed Jerry Reese shrewd additions (like we saw with Ayers last year).
If we hire a good DC with a system that actually fits our personell, I see a turnaround somewhat similiar to what we had from Lewis when we went to Spags.
Yeah that's what I liked about Spags as our DC. He took the same personnel and increased sacks from 2006 to 2007 by 21 sacks. That was all his blitz packages and utilizing players in creative ways.
Can that happen again? We will see, but I'd go with Spags right now over any potential DC who never did the job. If there is someone who has a better resume than Spags, then by all means. But if the candidate never had DC experience, than I'd go with Spags over that guy.
As far as 43 or 34, like I said, I don't care either way. If there was a time to make a chance this would be it. So if we chose to take it or not, I am not in favor of one over the other. Just as long as we hire a different coordinator, fine by me. Just give me an aggressive DC. It's too bad we can't get someone like Bowles or Horton. I loved what they did with Arizona.
I hope we can then also find a healthy MLB of the caliber of Pierce in his Giants prime to pair with Spags. The more I've rewatched some games and highlights of 2007-2008, the more I've grown to appreciate how vital Pierce was to that defense.
Our defense has mostly sucked since, except for the stretch last year after we traded for Beason and he was still healthy
Actually, Fangio doesn't only run a 3-4 in San Francisco
He used a 4-3 hybrid on some plays; actually a 4-3 under front (I remember Aikman talking about this one game), where the Outside Linebacker (I believe Ahmad Brooks in many cases, because he accumulates a lot of sacks) essentially plays the role of an extra lineman.
There's little reason to assume he would dump them if he came back, unless that decision came from above (Mara/Reese/Coughlin). Spags may or may not like them; but either way the decisions would be based on having worked extensively with them before.
Nunn and (especially) Herrmann would likely be toast in a Spagnuolo II scenario. Names to watch from Spagnuolo's tenure in St. Louis would include Ken Flajole and Brendan Daly.
RE: And Fangio has a lot of experience in the 4-3, you goof
He took the same personnel and increased sacks from 2006 to 2007 by 21 sacks. That was all his blitz packages and utilizing players in creative ways.
You are going to mention the part of Spags having the magic potion to ensure having Tuck, Osi and Strahan for 100% of the games (48 of 48) in 2007 compared to the 54% they played the previous season (26 of 48) at some point, correct?
Sure helps a lot. Those 3 alone combined for 9 sacks in '06 and 32 in '07.
This team on defense sucks. If there was any time to make a system change it would be now. It's not like we are a player or so away on defense. We could use an upgrade almost everywhere. CB is the most complete position out of the defense. However, with the defense the way it is, this would be a time if one wanted felt like it to make that system change.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
I'm a little more bullish on the D talent especially if we keep JPP and find a suitable replacement for Rolle. I also believe there will be a couple well placed Jerry Reese shrewd additions (like we saw with Ayers last year).
If we hire a good DC with a system that actually fits our personell, I see a turnaround somewhat similiar to what we had from Lewis when we went to Spags.
Yeah that's what I liked about Spags as our DC. He took the same personnel and increased sacks from 2006 to 2007 by 21 sacks. That was all his blitz packages and utilizing players in creative ways.
Can that happen again? We will see, but I'd go with Spags right now over any potential DC who never did the job. If there is someone who has a better resume than Spags, then by all means. But if the candidate never had DC experience, than I'd go with Spags over that guy.
As far as 43 or 34, like I said, I don't care either way. If there was a time to make a chance this would be it. So if we chose to take it or not, I am not in favor of one over the other. Just as long as we hire a different coordinator, fine by me. Just give me an aggressive DC. It's too bad we can't get someone like Bowles or Horton. I loved what they did with Arizona.
Agreed. Yes, Horton or Bowles would be awesome with this personel especially if we hang on to JPP. I'd love to see what kind of jump Moore takes under a more aggressive DC too. I think he can be a top 10 DE in this league (at least from a pass rush standpoint) and much better than Kiwi ever was. JPP, an emerging Moore on the ends coupled with a returning Ayers and Wynn, then big Hank and a draft or FA addition in the middle is a very underrated DL going into next year IMO.
One role modern DC have to do is have a network to evaluate FA and the ability to help recruit them and the track record of guys who have done well under his DC leadership. Good fa want to know they will be listened to and their strengths maximized.
Spags had a track record of that for every position on defense.
I dunno....sounds like a good choice
In addition to Flajole and Daly, Paul Ferraro has history with Spags.
He was Spagnuolo's LB coach in St. Louis, and I think they worked together previously at the college level. Ferraro had a pretty good first year as UCF's DC, although a lousy bowl game against NC State probably doesn't help his case for a return to the NFL. He has an extensive resume that includes special teams.
This will be a great reason to be excited about the defense again
1) He was a rookie DC when he was here...and did well in year one...most people get better if only from a "been here" sense of confidence that radiates
2) He was a LB coach prior to that...a long ignored aspect of the Giants in FO and coaching mindshare that in the new NFL has resonance.
3) He won here with TC...newbies cannot argue with the idea that he knows something
4) Being through the rigors of an NFL Season at HC/DC since then teaches you from your failures and successes...and teaches you how to reach a wider variety of players and helps you understand what works and what does not
5) Spags was liked by his players because he listened
6) One mark of a good DC is not what scheme he favors...I think that may be over rated...but what evidence there is that he got players to play better?...and within a year?
In one year, Spags got (now not all due to him...but getting out of the way is genius and so is overwhelming evidence he got the best out of what he had):
A great year from OSi (on the run and the pass defense...last guy to get OSi to play run? Remember his game against Walter Jones that year?)
A great year from Tuck
one more good year from Strahan
Ditto Robbins
The best years AP and Mitchell ever had
The best year Corey Webster ever had after a few bad ones
a big contribution from Sam Madison
Ditto young players and rookies like Aaron Ross and Alford
Ditto JAGS like McQuarters, James Butler, Dockery, Gibril Wilson.
In sum...young, old, stars and Jags at all three levels...Dl, LB and DB all were reached,played and felt a part of something big and worked hard and studied and got better and better. Against all different kinds of schemes and challenges as the season went on.
Accident? Maybe....but you would be arguing against a lot of data. Some credit (even if getting out of the way) has to be given.
if it is Spags? A lot of reasons to think its a good thing
You are going to mention the part of Spags having the magic potion to ensure having Tuck, Osi and Strahan for 100% of the games (48 of 48) in 2007 compared to the 54% they played the previous season (26 of 48) at some point, correct?
Sure helps a lot. Those 3 alone combined for 9 sacks in '06 and 32 in '07.
The schemes were totally different. Sure it obviously helps when your 3 guys stay healthy. But then again, when it comes to our team when have we actually stayed healthy? It seems like for years we have had positions get gutted. From LBs, to CBs, to RBs, to almost any position. This has been happening for a while. This year it was Cbs. Yeah it would be great if guys can stay healthy. You are correct it would help if those 3 could have stayed healthy. It also helps when you supplement your pass rushers with additional blitzes, you know ones, that actually get home. The creative use of personnel, and different blitz packages aided in the 21 sack increase. I did game break downs and some of the stuff he was doing was great to see when you draft it all up and map each play for a whole game.
He overloaded A gap, while bringing in a safety and then a CB from the slot. It was great blitz packages that forced the QB to get rid of the ball early or get sacked. You could not step up because someone was coming from A gap. You could not move around left or right, because your DEs were coming around the corner. If by chance you saw daylight to try to move around, you saw a slot Cb coming in.
Not to mention, moving personnel where Ross would be the safety on different plays but give the pre snap shell of a Cb. He fucked with opposing offenses while bringing in pressure.
That's why the sacks increased by a lot. You could very well have the Perry Fewell rush 4 and drop everyone else back, and teams could negate your pass rush by getting rid of the ball quickly.
But our scheme factored with our players accounted for an increase in sacks, which by the way was higher than Lewis in 2004,05, and 06.
04- 40 sacks
05- 41 sacks
06- 32 sacks.
That's just factoring sacks alone and not scheme which sucked and led to his firing. His treatment of Webster was god awful. You took a guy with potential and basically played zone with him. He used to berate the guy.
Spags changed the scheme and played man press with Webster and Webster responded.
07-53 sacks total
32 by those 3 and 21 more from other players.
Not only that Spags is actually the only coach under TC to get a HCing gig. Overall TCs coaching tree hasn't progressed. Tim Lewis hasn't even gotten another DC gig.
What's worse is the the guy made the playoffs 2/3 years AND still gets fired. That 23-20 loss to the Eagles in the wild game was awful. We had the god damn lead, and McNabb marched down the field and it set up an Akers FG.
Think of it this way. A DC goes to the playoffs 2/3 years, once against the Panthers at home, and once against the Eagles away, both loses. You would think this DC is a good DC that you can build upon by getting even more payers. I never was a fan of Lewis, but they fired his ass after going to the playoffs twice. Not only that he couldn't get a damn DC job again. 9 years as a position coach after that 2006 firing. There was a big different in how both coaches coached their defenses. Hence one guy being the most successful of the TC coaches, even though he didn't do well as a HC. Still out of all the coaches, he is the guy who got a HCing gig in the NFL while the others have not.
I never was a fan of the hirings of Tim Lewis, Sheridan and Fewell. But like I mentioned in this thread or another one, I don't care who we hire as a DC as long as they are aggressive. It's too bad we can't get Bowles or Horton as our DC. I like aggressive nature. I don't even care what system we use, 34 or stick with a 43 as long as this defense plays better. Right now. I have zero faith in our defense.
#1 we all know that Fewell has to go.
Just about any new hire will be able to do just as good a job.
Spags didn't pan out as a HC, that happens, so maybe his niche is as a DC in a stable environment such as the one the Giants provided under Coughlin?
I would like to see him brought back cause what matters to me is that he had success while he was here.
but his best work came in 2008, a season during which he did not have Strahan, Osi, or Kawika Mitchell. Among the starters on that defense (5th in the NFL in points allowed) were Danny Clark, James Butler, and Michael Johnson.
I remember him as having an excellent ability to dictate a suboptimal play to a QB on third down. My favorite defensive play the Giants have run in many years was the corner blitz on 3rd and 7+ that would cause the QB and WR to run a hot slant right into Kenny Phillips. The result was almost always a 6 yard gain and a punt.
If Spags is the guy it raises the importance of the safety position even more. Need smart players that will take good angles.
Additionally even when the Spags didn't send the corner/nickel blitz the opposing QB had to consider it. These are fraction of a second that are wasted by the QB pre snap and post snap. The more a QB has to worry about the better.
I have a feeling this is exactly where we're headed...
Loved the guy when he was here, his resume since gives me serious pause.
Ideally, I'd like to move forward and not backwards here but if he does come back, I'll welcome him and hope for the best.
I think he'll have some pressure packages with better design and I think he'll be more aggressive but I also think if he's fielding the same level of talent than Fewell was for most of this year, the overall results aren't going to be much different or much better.
Whoever is replacing Fewell is going to need more than just a good scheme to make the Giants a top 10 defense again. Personnel-wise, we're really not that close.
Spags won with CB's straight off the street due to injuries
Not sure I am a fan of rehiring him, frankly I can take it or leave it, but he did have success with injuries.
It's not like we had guys off the street starting at RCB and LCB. Webster was a 2nd rd pick and Ross was a 1st rd pick. Madison was a vet who was one of the best CB's in football in his prime and he was still able to play well when he was here. Dockery was also a pretty good slot CB in the Nickel.
I'm curious as to who's beating the drum of Spags.
Not saying that I'm opposed. Just curious. Is it sports talk radio, BBI, Spags' agent, or somebody in the Giants' front office? Because if it's not the Giants' FO, the drumbeat is just noise.
RE: Spags won with CB's straight off the street due to injuries
Not sure I am a fan of rehiring him, frankly I can take it or leave it, but he did have success with injuries.
But he had Strahan still playing at a high level and starving for a title, Tuck, Osi, Cofield, Kiwi all young and hungry and fast getting after the QB. Who wold he have now?
we will DEFINITELY lose with him second time around, no doubt in our mind.
We have no personnel to speak of.
Really if we hire this guy, we should clean house and even trade Eli - we won't me competent for some time.
The never-ending coaching/system vs talent debate.
MacAdoo and Spags (round 1) have both shown how important good systems that fit the personell are and how they translate to better production on the field.
Subsequently it helps the collective personel play to their potential and well look 'talented'.
Spags returning could very well be part 3 of the lesson ;)
Last time I was confident the Giants could get a stop on 3rd and 7...
...they had a healthy Michael Strahan at LDE. Anyone who thinks Tim Lewis was the main problem from 2004-2006 should check his record with a healthy Strahan.
Good points, of course. If not Spags, who's better and available? Not clear at all. Seems to me that what McAdoo thinks about it -- and I assume he's in line for HC eventually, if not right away -- is going to be relevant.
announced the first time - for the same reason I'd love it now .... because with Spags I know what I'm getting - an attack, play downhill, pressure style of defense. I hated the Giants defense the years before Spags and since he left - for this precise reason.
that it would get rid of Fewell. I will always think highly of Spagnuolo from his time here and I would love to see what he would do for players like JPP, Hankins, Moore, Kennard, Prince, and DRC. I think Kennard would have 8-10 sacks annually under Spags as he would be used a lot like Kiwi was in 2007 when he had his best season prior to breaking his leg and ending up on IR.
RE: I'll believe it when I see it ... but I LOVED the choice when it was
announced the first time - for the same reason I'd love it now .... because with Spags I know what I'm getting - an attack, play downhill, pressure style of defense. I hated the Giants defense the years before Spags and since he left - for this precise reason.
Keep JPP ,re-sign Rolle to a cap friendly deal, then a couple tweaks here and there and this D could make a similar jump as it did from Lewis to Spags a few years ago.
RE: I'm not sure where I am on the Spags argument.
that it would get rid of Fewell. I will always think highly of Spagnuolo from his time here and I would love to see what he would do for players like JPP, Hankins, Moore, Kennard, Prince, and DRC. I think Kennard would have 8-10 sacks annually under Spags as he would be used a lot like Kiwi was in 2007 when he had his best season prior to breaking his leg and ending up on IR.
Kennard had 4.5 sacks this year in a year where he missed 4 games and had nagging hamstring issues for most of the season. Had he played all 16 games without the injuries, I don't think that would have been out of the question anyway.
The best Kiwi ever looked to me was early in 2010 but the neck injury ended his year early and he never really seemed the same afterward.
1) He was a rookie DC when he was here...and did well in year one...most people get better if only from a "been here" sense of confidence that radiates
2) He was a LB coach prior to that...a long ignored aspect of the Giants in FO and coaching mindshare that in the new NFL has resonance.
3) He won here with TC...newbies cannot argue with the idea that he knows something
4) Being through the rigors of an NFL Season at HC/DC since then teaches you from your failures and successes...and teaches you how to reach a wider variety of players and helps you understand what works and what does not
5) Spags was liked by his players because he listened
6) One mark of a good DC is not what scheme he favors...I think that may be over rated...but what evidence there is that he got players to play better?...and within a year?
In one year, Spags got (now not all due to him...but getting out of the way is genius and so is overwhelming evidence he got the best out of what he had):
A great year from OSi (on the run and the pass defense...last guy to get OSi to play run? Remember his game against Walter Jones that year?)
A great year from Tuck
one more good year from Strahan
Ditto Robbins
The best years AP and Mitchell ever had
The best year Corey Webster ever had after a few bad ones
a big contribution from Sam Madison
Ditto young players and rookies like Aaron Ross and Alford
Ditto JAGS like McQuarters, James Butler, Dockery, Gibril Wilson.
In sum...young, old, stars and Jags at all three levels...Dl, LB and DB all were reached,played and felt a part of something big and worked hard and studied and got better and better. Against all different kinds of schemes and challenges as the season went on.
Accident? Maybe....but you would be arguing against a lot of data. Some credit (even if getting out of the way) has to be given.
if it is Spags? A lot of reasons to think its a good thing
Great post Bill
+1. The only thing I would add is his focus on fundamentals. TACKLING. doing your job.
Not sure I am a fan of rehiring him, frankly I can take it or leave it, but he did have success with injuries.
But he had Strahan still playing at a high level and starving for a title, Tuck, Osi, Cofield, Kiwi all young and hungry and fast getting after the QB. Who wold he have now?
How is this defense devoid of talent when DRC and Prince are CB. JPP and Ayers are mid 1st rd picks. Hankins is a 2nd, Moore is a 3rd. Rolle is a former 1st who can still play as is Patterson
What does Phi, Was & Dal have on D that is better
The parts are greater than the sum - that is the fault of the DC
How is this defense devoid of talent when DRC and Prince are CB. JPP and Ayers are mid 1st rd picks. Hankins is a 2nd, Moore is a 3rd. Rolle is a former 1st who can still play as is Patterson
What does Phi, Was & Dal have on D that is better
The parts are greater than the sum - that is the fault of the DC
It's the can't-see-past-the-production-on-the-field phenomena.
Many have trouble understanding the intangibles and can only process what they tangibly perceive.
Coaching and system are intangibles that require looking deeper than just watching an opposing receiver be wide open and saying it's a players fault.
There is quite a bit of talent on this team and we'll see it more visibly when a system that better fits their skillset is in place.
than any defense in NFL history. His defense with the Rams was also poor for the most part.
So, I think the posters who are hesitant about the Giants rehiring him are certainly justified.
However, the Giants personnel fits very well with the type of D Spags likes to run. He likes to use multiple DL packages that emphasize quickness to get to the passer and getting into the backfield to disrupt running plays. He is not a guy who plugs up the middle with massive run-stopping DTs. Jenkins, Hankins and even Bromley would appear to be Spags type DTs. Moore, Wynn and Ayers are exactly the type of DEs he likes.
He puts a lot of responsibility on his corners to play press coverage and go one-on-one. Giants have two of the best in DRC and Prince.
He needs LBers and safeties who can blitz. Kennard has already demonstrated that he can blitz. Giants safeties were awful this year and need to be upgraded regardless of who becomes DC.
Giants were 5th in the league with 47 sacks, playing for a DC, who blitzed only reluctantly. With Spags in charge, this could be a very potent pass rush.
is ok here to defend TC and the results the Giants have had the last few years but gets ignored when looking at other coaches from other teams or even our own assistants.
CBs DRC a great cover 1 guy and Prince a guy who can cover and play in space. Even blitz. You need some backups although Brown maybe serviceable.
Safety is bad but the Taylor kid has flashed at times and Berhe is a hitter.
LB this is really a mess Kennard can be special williams is really a saftey
McClain is a pro but not fast you really have to design a defense that does not require good LBs or hope for a good draft here.
Inside Dline you have a budding star in Hankins but not much more Bromley could be something Kuhn is useless.
DE get JPP back put him at RDE like Strahan he can grow there. Moore is raw and Osi like but can get to the passer. Ayers was a nice find and could be the old vet Wynn can be a good platoon with Moore. This can be a strong unit but you have no 4 aces. Maybe you can do something with Kiwi.
Couple FA and draft moves and this defense can be a force again.
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 4m4 minutes ago
On the other hand, plenty of position coaches on the Giants have worked with - and won with - Spags.
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 5m5 minutes ago
Only 1 current Giants defensive player was here with Spags: Kiwanuka. And we know what will likely become of him.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
As far as 43 or 34, like I said, I don't care either way. If there was a time to make a chance this would be it. So if we chose to take it or not, I am not in favor of one over the other. Just as long as we hire a different coordinator, fine by me. Just give me an aggressive DC. It's too bad we can't get someone like Bowles or Horton. I loved what they did with Arizona. [/quote]
When Parcells used a 3/4 he had LT, Banks, Carson, Reasons, with Pepper Johnson as a reserve. That was an awesome group. Good LBs is also why the 49ers have been successful until several of them got injured this year. If you want to run a horse race, you need the horses.
Right now, the Giants LBs are mostly mediocre or worse. Kinnard has great potential & Beason can be good if he is not hurt. They have no one else to get excited about. To run a good 3/4 they would need at least 2 successful upgrades at the position & that is not likely. One of the things that I liked about Parcells & Spaguoulo is that they tailored their systems to the players & did not try to force the players into rigid roles that did not suit their talents, as you-know- does.
I think this would be a bad hire. I think he was an OK DC coordinator when here, bolstered by a supremely talented DL. Since he left, he was a joke as a HC, did absolutely nothing in NO except have one of the worst defenses ever, and then took a big step backward in terms of responsibility in Baltimore. I haven't watched enough of their games to make a judgement, but I will point out that while their D overall is decent, he is a secondary coach for one of the worst passing Ds in terms of yardage.
Yeah, a secondary that has been ravaged by injuries. Do you even know about the Ravens' injury situation with their DBs?
I guess Fewell is off the hook too. We had Mike Harris and Chykie Brown getting snaps in the secondary by the end of the season. 3 of our top 4 CB's were on IR before the midway point in the season and the only one who didn't hit IR was playing at far less than 100% for most of the season.
Clearly communicate well with each other and work well together.
I mean, was it lazy when the Steelers brought back Dick Lebough? No.
Exactly. The Spags critics are clueless. LeBeau came back to Pitt and was no longer a threat to become a HC elsewhere as well. I don't think Spags is going to go that route either at anytime in the near future. He's a natural fit.
The Saints situation was a nightmare where he wasn't even able to really communicate with the head coach due to the whole bounty thing.
He did benefit from a much better defensive line here than Fewell ever got, but there's no denying he had a lot of success, including holding the best offense in NFL history (at the time) to a mere 14 points in the Super Bowl.
Although I don't think he should be handed the job without looking at other candidates, the guy was a very good DC here during his short time and I would be happy to have him back.
RE: RE: I'm wondering if the Giants ownership long-term plan isn't to
duplicate the Steelers coaching arrangement, with a long-term HC helped by a premier DC (LeBeau).
McAdoo = Tomlin
Spags = LeBeau
I had this same thought. After all the criticism of Coughlin's "coaching tree," it'd be hilarious if his final OC and DC followed him with a successful run.
take the same route that they used to get Spags, and grab an Eagles coach. Dave Fipp, their special teams coach, would be someone I would be pretty interested in for DC.
Hearing it is "50-50" that Fewell returns. Or is it "50-50" he is fired? Damn, I forgot to ask. Anyway, Giants still in process of deciding.
We have a few things to consider here:
Giants are very,very media sensitive and calculated in how they handle the media. They leak things out in deliberate fashion with a goal in mind. Fewell though thoroughly proven to not be a good fit for this defense (and perhaps not that great a DC) was a hard worker and company man. Bottomline, ownership are very loyal to those types.
They will at minimum work hard to make this look like a 'hard' decision to keep Fewell's stock as high as possible for future employment.
You think TC's comments weren't contrived and calculated when he said he wants to keep his whole staff intact?
However you sometimes never know with this ownership. The other part of this is the Giants are so loyal they can be blind to just how bad a fit a coordinator or coach is if he endears himself to the organization and is a high character person.
Though a sometimes admirable trait for an organization, let's hope it isnt the latter as this arguably is move that's been 2 years overdue at this point. Otherwise, we are throwing yet another year down the toilet.
Admittedly our favorite furry paisano is just a DB coach, and a nepotism-type selection at that by his good friend John Harbough, but consider:
Ravens 3rd Down Conversion 89/221.4027. Giants 72/200.360
Ravens pass defense 382/595 .642 11 int. Giants 324/522 .62 17
Ravens 49 sacks Giants 47.
Ravens passing yardsge: 4341. Giants 4163.
Talent evaluation: examine one Chykie Brown, who started 2 games in 4 years with Baltimore. They waived him. He started 4 games with the Giants, becoming Fewell's second best corner by the last month of the season.
Steve Spagnuolo owed his success with the Giants almost exclusively to the 4 Aces. In 07 he greatly benefitted by Strahan's Hall-of-Fame caliber play. Mike pulled a Koufax and retired at the top of his game. In 08 Tuck was the best defensive lineman in the game. Osi was in his prime. Should Spagnuolo return the sole remaining player from his 2-year stint with the Giants would be Kiwanuka, who everybody wants back. Whole different game now.
As for his benighted stay with the Saints, well, let us just say that we find out what is inside a guy when he faces adversity. But there is a comment above that is completely inaccurate. Rob Ryan took the unit over in 13. He had them 4th in total defense. 2 against the pass. 4 in sacks. & 4 in points allowed. And those are facts, not subjective colorations and cliched flash-card responses like "read and react," "Tampa 2," and "passive." Lousy personnel makes defenses appear passive because they cannot win their individual matches and are constantly behind the play. The Giants will soon have a new DC. Great they better get 4-5 new starters. Spags would be a lousy choice for DC. And this is my personal favorite about this situation: Spagnuolo is a Cover 2 coach. Is that irony?
but it's funny I was actually thinking of starting a thread to bring Spagnuolo back the past few weeks. This is a move I'm in major favor of, and happy to see that it's becoming more than a thought by the Giants front office.
I think the Giants are realizing more than ever that schemes with clearer communication that aim to dictate terms work so much more effectively at unleashing natural physical talent, rhythm, and passion from players rather than passive and defeatist attitudes of former systems that IMO was derailing for players and passion (gilbride,lewis, sheridan, fewell)
As Bill2 said, brilliance is also listening and being able to get out of your own way. One of the few times Fewell got out of his own way was during the stretch run in 2011 when he adjusted the defense because there were 'miscommunications" (sound familiar?) occurring. I remember in the weeks prior to the close of the regular season Kenny Philips alluded to changes in scheme and communication that would help the defense know their roles, become more aggressive, and excel. Phillips was almost cocky in how much he felt these changes would help the team, and that always stuck with me. From there on out, the defense looked much more sure and aggressive. We all know the rest of the story.
I was also one of the major advocates for a new offensive system last year (really for many years) and would have leaped from the Empire State Building if Sullivan was hired. I always felt Eli was at least a 30+ td and low teens int guy. This year he's pretty much proven that. Throw out that SF game and Eli was pretty much at that 30+/10 line, with a mediocre o-line, and young and suspect talent. And there's been no aw shucks, cruddy body language. Eli's looked his most passionate ever, and I think that stems from him knowing it's in his hands, and can't be ripped away by insane numbers of miscommunications. I think the defense is at this crossroads with Fewell.
Now let's look at the defense. Why does it seem that every year Fewell has to adjust the playbook so guys don't miscommunicate? In my world, if it's to the point where guys are fucking up too often, maybe you're trying to be too smart for your own good. The one thing Spags was very good at was ensuring is that if you're going to lose, let it be on the merit of the players, but go after it... Spags played aggressive, to win the game, and allowed a player to play with their god given physical skill set. In a primal sort of way, this sort of system is very energizing. Ask Corey Webster what it did for him when he was no longer having his talent railroaded and stranded on Tim Lewis' Cover 3 island. That's the same passive crap as rushing 3 and dropping 8 into coverage, begging to be picked apart. You tell me which you'd rather play in?
As other posters have alluded to, which is my hunch as well... The Giants could very well be setting themselves up with two coaches in McAdoo and Spaguolo that could potentially be paired together for a long time to come. The Tomlin and Lebeau comparison's aren't far off, and what a great situation that would be if it could work out that way. Spags is already 55, he's approaching that area where he could become a long-term DC. Continuity is king if you have the right ingredients. The Steelers do. We can too.
I think most exciting of all is having two coordinators with philosophies that don't allow us to beat ourselves, schemes players have shown they enjoy playing in, and systems that play to win in an excitable and aggressive fashion putting the onus on the players...
What's not to like? Let's do this NYG. Welcome back Spags.
I saw more greatness in two years with Spags than I have in 4-5 years with Perry. I think Perry could have no injuries and still the scheme will call for linebackers covering Calvin Johnson downfield as was the case in the opener pre-injuries. We can say Spags had no injuries to deal with but I recall a more aggressive attacking style defense. If Spags was DC in the Dallas game, I have to believe Romo would have had less time to throw. My opinion of course.
and Fewell had Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, Canty and Linval to go with him. Not to mention Boley, Phillips, Rolle and Webster. And the defense still sucked. It's sucked for most of his time here, saved only by a string of third string QBs last season. And the cupboard has not been as bare as people make it out to be. It's time for him to go.
I'm not calling for a hero's welcome for Spags, but he's an upgrade. His Rams and New Orleans stints weren't any more embarrassing than Gilbride's San Diego stint, LeBeau's Cincy stint, or Josh McDaniels' Denver debacle - and those guys all returned to their former masters and excelled as coordinators.
and Fewell had Tuck, Osi, Kiwi, Canty and Linval to go with him. Not to mention Boley, Phillips, Rolle and Webster. And the defense still sucked. It's sucked for most of his time here, saved only by a string of third string QBs last season. And the cupboard has not been as bare as people make it out to be. It's time for him to go.
I'm not calling for a hero's welcome for Spags, but he's an upgrade. His Rams and New Orleans stints weren't any more embarrassing than Gilbride's San Diego stint, LeBeau's Cincy stint, or Josh McDaniels' Denver debacle - and those guys all returned to their former masters and excelled as coordinators.
because he is a secondary coach, and the Redskins secondary sucked this year (I blame it on talent), but Raheem Morris is a VERY smart defensive coach.
not the best option, but an option I wouldn't HATE.
The 2011 Giants won a Super Bowl. But I admire the way the defense played in the playoffs that year. They clearly stepped it up. Perry's never had top five talent to work with, but he's never had bottom five talent either, in my opinion. Yet that's where his defenses rank more often than not.
It's just the way people bend over backwards to defend Spags, make every excuse in the book for him and completely gloss over the major warts on his resume since he left here that make me shake my head.
If Spags comes back, I will back him 100% and hope for the best. I just am not going to expect much unless the personnel improves because no one is fielding a top 10 defense with the guys Fewell had this year.
Points per game. The good years under Fewell are comparable to Spags' worst year. Keep in mind, Bill Sheridan got fired in 2009 allowing 26.7 points per game, third worst in the league. Fewell hasn't gotten that bad, yet....
We could arguably for the first time in the TC era have BOTH offensive and defensive systems that are player friendly and take best advantage of our players.
The total d
BP in NJ : 1:03 pm : link : reply
stats are misleading.n 2009 was Bill Sheridan if i'm not mistaken, and he was the worst DC in the history of football...
When defenses are ranked, why are they ranked by the yardage they give up? What does yardage have to do with win/losses?
It's points allowed, to me, that determines how good a defense is....
Sheridan's defense was ranked 13th, yes....in freakin' yardage......they were 30th in points.....
As for Spag's, I have no idea why he would want to come here.....he would be expected to turn this team right around....when he came here, the players were in place, for the most part....and he got the most out of them.....
At this very moment, this defense has no linebackers or safties....injured corners.....the best DLman may be leaving....one solid DT.....the rest either have no experience or are stop gap at best....
Any DC, would need the help of a good GM to get him the players he needs.....this could easily be a 2-3 year rebuild on defense.....
Spag's would be coming back to a nightmare......he'd be crazy to accept this job.....and as mentioned, who wants to be DC, with TC year to year, unless there is a promise of being the head coach....
I hear you. But those problems would be here for ANY DC that comes here.
The question should be, 'does Spags' previous seasons with the Giants give him a leg up, an advantage, on rebuilding the Giants D? As opposed to DC's who've never been with the team at all. Is there some kind of intangible that could be at work here with Spags and not with someone else.
come back and have a lot of success just to see Arcs head explode like in Scanners... :)
All kidding aside, I'd rather have an up and coming name that impresses the front office (like McAdoo) for the defense. The only thing we know for sure about Spags is that we have no idea at this point if he's a good defensive coordinator. I loved his constant blitzing attitude and I think in today's NFL that is how you have to play, but he was just God awful in New Orleans.
Re. the Giants' inability to cover the middle of the field, Dorgan recently put much of the blame on the players:
Quote:
In both 4-3 and 3-4 zone schemes the drop landmarks for the LBers are well thought out and will put the LBer in an initial position to be near the center of their zone AND that starting target position should put them dead center in the middle of a primary passing lane. We do that well. What we don't do well is to react to receivers running into and through our zones.
Part of the problem is a lack of athleticism. Part of it is we are either undisciplined or lacking in mental capacity. Can't tell from my couch which it is, I'd have to be in practice a few days to figure out what the fuck is wrong with them.
The drops are text book from what I can see. The reaction from there is comic book.
Re. the meltdown against the read option in the Seahawks game, however, Dorgan unloaded on Fewell with both barrels (bold face added for emphasis):
Quote:
Yes, it is coaching. We use the shallow chase concept which is a very poor decision against any type of option. Most coaches with a pulse recognized that before they graduated to the HS level.
The shallow chase works somewhat against strict zone run, but never against veer or zone read.
I'm not a guy who calls for coaches' heads, but he needs to go. No ifs, ands or buts. Firing him today is a year too late for my taste.
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The DEs were crashing into the C gap, then went into shallow chase when the ball went away from them. Every down. It was stealing to run the QB keep.
Fewell was trying to use a switch call with the OLB or the CB on contain, but several times we were in man coverage and the two defenders he's got on QB are dropping into coverage.
Just a recipe for disaster. I hate shallow chase concepts except when you're up against a zone run team. It can be effective then when the RB tries for the backside cut, but against any type of option it puts too much pressure on your OLBers and CBs. Coupling the shallow chase switch call with man coverage is completely unsound.
It leaves you with NO ONE on the QB.
RE: RE: RE: Spags won with CB's straight off the street due to injuries
Not sure I am a fan of rehiring him, frankly I can take it or leave it, but he did have success with injuries.
But he had Strahan still playing at a high level and starving for a title, Tuck, Osi, Cofield, Kiwi all young and hungry and fast getting after the QB. Who wold he have now?
Moore, Wynn, Hankins, Kennard, possibly JPP
Which of these is a premier pass rusher? Wynn is a guy off the street, Moore is still a maybe. Kennard too, he played just 4 games. JPP a good player, but hasn't been a premier pass rusher since 2011 when Tuck was still playing well. Strahan, Osi and Tuck were all premier guys .
he normally used a variety of blitzes with players from different levels, he picked this up from phi d coordinator the late jim johnson.
He used these blitz packages everywhere he went but New Orleans not sure why but according to his wiki
" Spagnuolo learned under Philadelphia coach Jim Johnson, and shares the same aggressive, blitz-heavy approach as his mentor. (He did not incorporate this philosophy during his time in New Orleans however)"
he normally used a variety of blitzes with players from different levels, he picked this up from phi d coordinator the late jim johnson.
He used these blitz packages everywhere he went but New Orleans not sure why but according to his wiki
" Spagnuolo learned under Philadelphia coach Jim Johnson, and shares the same aggressive, blitz-heavy approach as his mentor. (He did not incorporate this philosophy during his time in New Orleans however)"
Probably because he follows the HC wishes. Even though Payton was suspended you have to believe the tone at the top was in place and he didn't have the autonomy he needed.
Jumanji - ( New Window )
Like any other coach they need talent...
What talent did he have in St. Louis?
New Orleans was a terrible situation with Payton suspended the team was in turmoil and that defense hasnt been good in years...
HOWEVA!
Things are way, way easier when you have a hall of famer (Strahan), a speed demon strip master (Osi), and a rock solid steady presence (Tuck) all on your defensive line at the same time. A line good enough where a player like Kiwi before his injuries can be your 4th option.
You can't have it both ways.
Spags 2 stops were at STL (sh#tty organization, horrible injury situation) and NO in the year following Bounty-gate sanctions. since then he hasn't ran a Defense. are we really going to hold the black hole of a year following Bountygate against him??? that is beyond insane. he wasnt up to the job turning the Rams around - and IMO he's not a Head Coach - so be it. that speaks nothing to his abilities as a DC
what we do know is that he was a great fit here, as a defensive coordinator, and had us convinced to make him the highest paid asst. coach in the league b4 he left
give this guy prince, drc and thurmond at CB and let him play press-man
HOWEVA!
Things are way, way easier when you have a hall of famer (Strahan), a speed demon strip master (Osi), and a rock solid steady presence (Tuck) all on your defensive line at the same time. A line good enough where a player like Kiwi before his injuries can be your 4th option.
Year 2 here he didn't have Strahan and Osi and he seemed to do okay, no?
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
He took the first HCing job that was offered. So can't fault him for that because you never know when you might get offered another one.
The Saints DC position was a poor choice especially since Sean P. was suspended as well as players and other coaches. So just a bad choice in wanting to go there. That team has issues across the board.
I understand you the choice though. After a failed HCing gig, you want to bring your stock back up and chose the Saints. However, the situation surrounding the team made the chose not a good one.
I think our franchise is stable enough to offer him a chance to bring his stock back up.
HOWEVA!
Things are way, way easier when you have a hall of famer (Strahan), a speed demon strip master (Osi), and a rock solid steady presence (Tuck) all on your defensive line at the same time. A line good enough where a player like Kiwi before his injuries can be your 4th option.
Umm 2008 he only had Tuck and Kiwi at defensive end and the giants defense was 3rd in the NFL...
So he did prove he could have a good defense without Strahan and Osi...
their secondary was James Butler and Michael Johnson as their starters, Phllips was a rookie, Webster and Ross were the corners, The LBs were Blackburn, Pierce and Danny Clark..
So where was the talent on that defense that still ranked 3rd in the NFL?
Yeah, I think so. But ANYBODY would be better than Perry 'Smiling' Futile.
Quote:
It would be an absolutely awful hire.
Like any other coach they need talent...
What talent did he have in St. Louis?
New Orleans was a terrible situation with Payton suspended the team was in turmoil and that defense hasnt been good in years...
So then why are we firing Fewell if it's just about talent?
Spags was a wretched HC, DC of a historically terrible defense in NO, and hasn't exactly overseen a good secondary in his most recent job attempt.
It'll be a total fan appeasement move and not a smart football one to bring him back here. I'd like to think the Giants are better than that.
I can't put too much into what happened with the Saints but it's a little concerning. I don't think Spags is Tom Landry redux but he's had great success in NY--he's worked with Coughlin and he's looking for a job. It makes sense. I'd prefer Spags over Fewell that's for sure.
the starting defense was
tuck
Cofield
Robbins
Kiwi
Clark
Pierce
Blackburn
Webster
Butler
Johnson
Ross
Phillips was a rookie that year...so where is the great talent that he led to the 3rd best defense in the NFL?
I don't think it would be good to bring him back. bring in an up and comer, not a one (or two) year wonder who hasn't been anything since.
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
This is a very fair point. Reminds me of all the Mike Sullivan/OC talk last offseason, before we ultimately (and wisely) changed systems completely. We're going the safer route here.
We're not there already? It seems like the moron brigade broke down the gate and stormed the castle recently.
Let's stop with pretending the 2008 defense was talentless. Perry Fewell would have sacrificed a small animal or twenty for that DL alone.
I'd like to see them go in a different direction, but honestly, I don't know who the available candidates are. There's not one position coach or available proven DC sitting out there that I can point to and say 'why don't they go after him?'. I'd love to see them approach Fangio of SF, but he's traditionally been a 3-4 guy and we don't have the personnel to swing that.
Quote:
and not well thought out decision? We need a new Defensive Coordinator? Ummm, what's the last guy who was here before Perry doing? He was pretty good.
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
This is a very fair point. Reminds me of all the Mike Sullivan/OC talk last offseason, before we ultimately (and wisely) changed systems completely. We're going the safer route here.
It's different though. Sully was never an OC. Spags was our DC that changed our defense with the same personnel Tim Lewis had. We own a SB with him as the DC.
Coach Sully never was an OC for us or anyone else.
Quote:
BBI is going to become comedy central.
We're not there already? It seems like the moron brigade broke down the gate and stormed the castle recently.
Wait til Quinn stays and Eli gets his $100 million extension!
Year 2 here he didn't have Strahan and Osi and he seemed to do okay, no?
Forgot he was still here in 2008. Don't mind me over here.
I concede there are two ways to look at that. One is you need talent to show your talent, and he didn't have that type of talent in the other places he went. I agree. But the other way to look at it is maybe he's not that good to begin with and his warts were hidden by the talent he had with the Giants.
I have nothing against him, and don't see any scenario where he does any worse than what the Giants have had, but I'd like them to go in a different direction and hire someone new. Give a position coach from somewhere else his big break.
I mean, was it lazy when the Steelers brought back Dick Lebough? No.
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
This. Really disappointed at the lack of effort by the front office if this rumor comes true.
granted the reason he wasn't brought back was they wanted a new system,
but i think everyone has rose colored glasses when it comes to spags, i would rather grab a hot DC candidate from SF, Arizona, or Seattle, much like the way we brought in Spags, cherry pick the better teams of their assistants.
that 2008 team had talent yest but their LB's were weak and their safeties were weak...
They had 2 good defensive ends on that team...it wasnt stacked with talent...
If TC feels more comfortable with Spags than anyone else, it seems reasonable given he was Coughlin's only good DC hire. I'd just hate for him to be forced on TC because of the past or familiarity.
It's honestly a bit depressing to think about what's become of this team, talent-wise, since then.
How folks come to the conclusion that McAdoo is a head coach material is beyond me, especially with no experience.
succesful post Giants. He may be
our best choice since Mara wont
$$$ for top coach. Keep in mind
we have some issues on offense too.
Eli can't move...oline sucks..need
rb who can catch...w/o 13 we
suck.. worse oline..wr..te..coaches
in league..ect.
Exactly.
2005 24
2006 25
2007 7 (Spags)
2008 5 (Spags)
2009 13
2010 7
2011 27
2012 31
2013 8 (shocking stat here)
2014 29
Someone already had to correct folks that thought Strahan and Osi played in 2008.
I'll be more than happy to welcome Spags back!
You're telling me there's no other qualified candidates out there? You're telling me the absolute best choice for our Defensive Coordinator Steve? Just seems lazy to me.
He's a guy that many Giants fans liked and he was successful here. Many of us loved he used the Jim Johnson defense and would try to pressure the opposition. I think there is a foundation in place so don't agree with anything lazy about wanting a coach we liked based on scheme and the historical success he had with the Giants.
He took the first HCing job that was offered. So can't fault him for that because you never know when you might get offered another one.
My memory is lousy, but didn't he walk away from a shot at the Redskins HC position?
I'd like to see them go in a different direction, but honestly, I don't know who the available candidates are. There's not one position coach or available proven DC sitting out there that I can point to and say 'why don't they go after him?'. I'd love to see them approach Fangio of SF, but he's traditionally been a 3-4 guy and we don't have the personnel to swing that.
I can only hope we could get Fangio.
Quote:
this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
How folks come to the conclusion that McAdoo is a head coach material is beyond me, especially with no experience.
It comes from people thinking, despite all evidence to the contrary, that ownership has given even a second's thought to who will replace Coughlin when he's finished here. Like they were the ones who hired McAdoo, and not just that, but they hired him so they could, one day, promote him to HC, regardless of how he performed as an OC.
How many DC vacancies generally come with top notch defensive players in place?
Quote:
stick with a 43 defense, then I'd bring him back.
He took the first HCing job that was offered. So can't fault him for that because you never know when you might get offered another one.
My memory is lousy, but didn't he walk away from a shot at the Redskins HC position?
I am in the same boat. I am not sure about the redskins. Sounds familiar but not sure. I do remember Marc Ross turning down to interview with the Jets, lol.
I am not sure about the redskins. Perhaps it was the possibility of working with the owner. I don't fault him for taking the very first offer. Look how long it took for Bruce Arians to finally make it as a HC. He was basically retired and came back and had success and then got his HCing chance.
I feel bad for coaches that want their shot and a bad franchise is the first to offer it. Chud got fired after 1 year. You're screwing around with peoples lives and their families. Moving into a new city, and kids going to school, and then in 1 year uprooting that. I hate when those bad franchises do that to their coaches.
Quote:
stick with a 43 defense, then I'd bring him back.
He took the first HCing job that was offered. So can't fault him for that because you never know when you might get offered another one.
My memory is lousy, but didn't he walk away from a shot at the Redskins HC position?
Yup, but IIRC he was never actually offered the Redskins job, we gave him a raise to keep him here.
I remember him as having an excellent ability to dictate a suboptimal play to a QB on third down. My favorite defensive play the Giants have run in many years was the corner blitz on 3rd and 7+ that would cause the QB and WR to run a hot slant right into Kenny Phillips. The result was almost always a 6 yard gain and a punt.
If Spags is the guy it raises the importance of the safety position even more. Need smart players that will take good angles.
They need to overhaul the coaching staff, inject more youth and college element to up-level the speed and athleticism. Carroll and Harbaugh learned some things prior to coming from/back the college ranks. When you can't stop a college read option it is very telling of the coaching and the players and more important the overal APPROACH to the game.
While here, he was the DC of a Super Bowl winning team, and the 3rd ranked another season.
While here, he was beloved by the players and the fans.
Yes he stumbled as a HC, but lots of top assistants don't make it as the top guy. And some times, it takes a failure (See Bill Belicheck) to learn how to be successful as a head coach.
I'd love this choice and I bet the players would too.
1) He was a rookie DC when he was here...and did well in year one...most people get better if only from a "been here" sense of confidence that radiates
2) He was a LB coach prior to that...a long ignored aspect of the Giants in FO and coaching mindshare that in the new NFL has resonance.
3) He won here with TC...newbies cannot argue with the idea that he knows something
4) Being through the rigors of an NFL Season at HC/DC since then teaches you from your failures and successes...and teaches you how to reach a wider variety of players and helps you understand what works and what does not
5) Spags was liked by his players because he listened
6) One mark of a good DC is not what scheme he favors...I think that may be over rated...but what evidence there is that he got players to play better?...and within a year?
In one year, Spags got (now not all due to him...but getting out of the way is genius and so is overwhelming evidence he got the best out of what he had):
A great year from OSi (on the run and the pass defense...last guy to get OSi to play run? Remember his game against Walter Jones that year?)
A great year from Tuck
one more good year from Strahan
Ditto Robbins
The best years AP and Mitchell ever had
The best year Corey Webster ever had after a few bad ones
a big contribution from Sam Madison
Ditto young players and rookies like Aaron Ross and Alford
Ditto JAGS like McQuarters, James Butler, Dockery, Gibril Wilson.
In sum...young, old, stars and Jags at all three levels...Dl, LB and DB all were reached,played and felt a part of something big and worked hard and studied and got better and better. Against all different kinds of schemes and challenges as the season went on.
Accident? Maybe....but you would be arguing against a lot of data. Some credit (even if getting out of the way) has to be given.
if it is Spags? A lot of reasons to think its a good thing
fair point by the eagleman; any prospective DC who has designs on becoming HC in the near- or intermediate term will likely not take this vacancy (assuming, God-willing, it occurs) as a must-sign on opportunity. And this improves the odds on a hire such as Spags
McAdoo = Tomlin
Spags = LeBeau
Definitely worth another shot here in my estimation.
McAdoo = Tomlin
Spags = LeBeau
I think the long term success of the Steelers has never been far from John Mara's mind. Consistency works in the NFL. No doubt about it.
Remember when Michael Johnson looked like an emerging young NFL star? And Spags effect on Corey Webster alone justified his employment as Giants DC. I'd be really interested in seeing what Spags could do with Prince.
Incidentally, we made him the highest paid DC at the time, so we must've thought highly enough of him.
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2008/Feb/07/br/hawaii80207042.html - ( New Window )
Also, not to mention, he took the same personnel that Tim Lewis had and increased sacks by 21 sacks just by implementing his aggressive scheme. He made use of guys like Webster, Michael Johnson, and James Butler.
Excellent use of players and personnel, and his scheme took the same players and added 21 sacks to the 2006 total of Tim Lewis.
McAdoo = Tomlin
Spags = LeBeau
I had this same thought. After all the criticism of Coughlin's "coaching tree," it'd be hilarious if his final OC and DC followed him with a successful run.
1) He was a rookie DC when he was here...and did well in year one...most people get better if only from a "been here" sense of confidence that radiates
2) He was a LB coach prior to that...a long ignored aspect of the Giants in FO and coaching mindshare that in the new NFL has resonance.
3) He won here with TC...newbies cannot argue with the idea that he knows something
4) Being through the rigors of an NFL Season at HC/DC since then teaches you from your failures and successes...and teaches you how to reach a wider variety of players and helps you understand what works and what does not
5) Spags was liked by his players because he listened
6) One mark of a good DC is not what scheme he favors...I think that may be over rated...but what evidence there is that he got players to play better?...and within a year?
In one year, Spags got (now not all due to him...but getting out of the way is genius and so is overwhelming evidence he got the best out of what he had):
A great year from OSi (on the run and the pass defense...last guy to get OSi to play run? Remember his game against Walter Jones that year?)
A great year from Tuck
one more good year from Strahan
Ditto Robbins
The best years AP and Mitchell ever had
The best year Corey Webster ever had after a few bad ones
a big contribution from Sam Madison
Ditto young players and rookies like Aaron Ross and Alford
Ditto JAGS like McQuarters, James Butler, Dockery, Gibril Wilson.
In sum...young, old, stars and Jags at all three levels...Dl, LB and DB all were reached,played and felt a part of something big and worked hard and studied and got better and better. Against all different kinds of schemes and challenges as the season went on.
Accident? Maybe....but you would be arguing against a lot of data. Some credit (even if getting out of the way) has to be given.
if it is Spags? A lot of reasons to think its a good thing
Excellent analysis!
2005 24
2006 25
2007 7 (Spags)
2008 5 (Spags)
2009 13
2010 7
2011 27
2012 31
2013 8 (shocking stat here)
2014 29
Someone already had to correct folks that thought Strahan and Osi played in 2008.
I'll be more than happy to welcome Spags back!
What's shocking is they finished 8th, but they played an overload of backup QB's.
That said, the arrival of Beason and return of Hill was huge. Both aren't there anymore.
It just makes too much sense. You need someone who can come here and win now with TC. Spags is the obvious candidate.
On top of that he is the only guy who really has looked the part since John Fox. I think of Spags' time here and I think of a teacher. He was always teaching. Even during a game you'd see him working with a DT on a swim move or a DB on hand placement. I just had so much confidence in him and you can see why the players did.
Final thought. BBI has some absolute puppets posting but we also have some very smart ones and usually BBI's collective assessment of someone is worth something. BBI loved Spags and I think that should count for something.
So... On the record... I'd take Spags back in a heartbeat.
Also, not to mention, he took the same personnel that Tim Lewis had and increased sacks by 21 sacks just by implementing his aggressive scheme. He made use of guys like Webster, Michael Johnson, and James Butler.
Excellent use of players and personnel, and his scheme took the same players and added 21 sacks to the 2006 total of Tim Lewis.
Remember when Tim Lewis wasn't the problem?
The Saints thing was a fucking fiasco from stem to stern long before Spags had anything to do with them. Their defense was light on talent to begin with. There was an interim head coach. The "leaders" of the defense were loyal to Williams and pretty much said before the season that they were going to ignore whoever replaced him. I have no idea why that clusterfuck is supposed to outweigh the outstanding work he did as the Giants DC.
I don't think it's a question of how desirable the job is, it's a question of who the best available candidate is, and how well they fit with the existing organizational structure and personnel.
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this isn't a very attractive DC vacancy. It's a 6-10 team with limited talent on defense, and two key cogs (JPP/Rolle) are free agents. Also, the head coach is making his last stand at 70 with a bright OC tabbed as a potential successor.
Totally agree with this. There is great uncertainty and no clear path to the next job for a DC coming here. This actually seems like a pretty decent option.
Yes, the uncertainty regarding coughlin makes this a bit tough for anyone who isn't signing on to increase their profile and visibility (like McAdoo did) or rehabilitate their profile (like Spags would)
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Good post.
Also, not to mention, he took the same personnel that Tim Lewis had and increased sacks by 21 sacks just by implementing his aggressive scheme. He made use of guys like Webster, Michael Johnson, and James Butler.
Excellent use of players and personnel, and his scheme took the same players and added 21 sacks to the 2006 total of Tim Lewis.
Remember when Tim Lewis wasn't the problem?
I never liked him or Hufangel hire. I have family in Pittsburgh that are die hard Steelers fans, and they had Lewis as a DC. As soon as we hired Lewis, they told me he would be an issue. I remember talking to them and reading articles in their media about Lewis, and I wasn't a fan of the hire.
It's amazing how Spags took that personnel and increase productivity of it. He basically took Webster who was yelled at by Lewis, and made him into a damn good CB.
I don't know what other people thought on here, but I hated the two initial hires by Coughlin when he came here in 2004.
When the other team only has to go on a 25 yard TD drive... You didn't give up many yards... Not because you were good..
Most of these guys are aspiring to be HCs - with any luck, after a year or two (or more, depending on the situation) they're hoping to have performed well enough to get a promotion, which will once again uproot them.
I don't think there's anything about this spot that would be considered undesirable compared to other available DC positions, save those that might become available on playoff/contending teams where the DC was elevated to HC elsewhere. Anyone else with an open DC spot is going to have all sorts of warts to deal with.
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In comment 12060251 AnishPatel said:
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Good post.
Also, not to mention, he took the same personnel that Tim Lewis had and increased sacks by 21 sacks just by implementing his aggressive scheme. He made use of guys like Webster, Michael Johnson, and James Butler.
Excellent use of players and personnel, and his scheme took the same players and added 21 sacks to the 2006 total of Tim Lewis.
Remember when Tim Lewis wasn't the problem?
I never liked him or Hufangel hire. I have family in Pittsburgh that are die hard Steelers fans, and they had Lewis as a DC. As soon as we hired Lewis, they told me he would be an issue. I remember talking to them and reading articles in their media about Lewis, and I wasn't a fan of the hire.
It's amazing how Spags took that personnel and increase productivity of it. He basically took Webster who was yelled at by Lewis, and made him into a damn good CB.
I don't know what other people thought on here, but I hated the two initial hires by Coughlin when he came here in 2004.
Didn't mean it was you who said that. Just that there was a crew back then who stated the same line, it's a talent issue not a coaching issue.
I liked Spags and liked his style. Wouldn't mind him, but also wouldn't mind if they decided to go another route after they interview other candidates.
You can argue that McDaniels was as bad, if not worse with Denver as Spags was in St. Louis and he seems to be doing well in his old role. I don't think anyone can realistically grade him for his time in New Orleans and given the circumstances there, his biggest mistake was committing to that job in the first place.
I'd like them to call some other candidates, but Spags definitely gives me a certain level of comfort just hearing his name.
There is a reason some decisions are called no-brainers.
Bringing back Spags means that a guy like Justin Houston becomes target #1 (smaller DE-OLB tweener type who is an awesome pass rusher) and a guy like McCourty at FS becomes a major target too because we'll need a safety to organize the back when Spags sends his blitzes
2. Even if he did win with a very talented roster he beat a favored Dallas team with a decimated safety corps in the playoffs and always seemed to have the team playing consistently well despite key injuries or not.
Aside from a 6 game stretch in 2011, We were lucky if Fewell could get the team to play consistent without a ton of blown assignments and guys wide open in the secondary with or without key injuries.
Spags proved he could win and have a consistently dominant defense with good talent. This team if it keeps JPP will boast an emerging Moore, Ayers (who was arguably our best DE in the first half), Wynn for DE's (which will be will well above average and better than most teams in the NFL. Hankins who is quickly becoming a top DT in the league and likely a couple additions.
In the secondary he will have Prince, DRC which is one of the better CB tandems in the NFL and likely some solid depth like Trumaine and/or Thurmond as Reese has been focusing on CB depth.
His LB corp wasnt ever that amazingly great and will have similiar talent here as well with a promising Kennard, Williams,McClain and hopefully a healthy Beason and a couple additions draft or via FA.
With all that said, I don't know if Spags would be the absolute best choice of all the available candidates but I would be amazed if he doesn't have this unit playing worlds better and much more consistent than Fewell ever did.
I would be pretty optimistic and albeit cautiously excited with this hire. (And we might see a blitz or two that actually works to boot!)
I can't wait until they re-hire spags as well.. this place will be comedy and our defense will be better off.
Let's also stop any mention of St. Louis like that is relevant. First, that team sucked. Second, there are many coaches who are great coordinators but not good head coaches. Spags may very well be one of those. You don't want Norv Turner as your HC but you sure as hell want him as your OC.
And his New Orleans defense was very bad yes. But it's also been very bad since. There is only so much you can do when the talent isn't there. Rex Ryan knows defense but the Jets D this year sucked because there is only so much you can do without talent.
Some people may use that last point in defense of Fewell. I say that is BS. Fewell routinely was in the bottom 5 defenses in the NFL and every year with the one exception where we played like 5 backup QBs was not due to injury or lack of talent.
Spags defense was predicated on press man coverage (fits well with DRC and Prince and possibly Thurmond if brought back).
I'd love for him to run our D, but would be also very pleased to see Spags return.
Spagnuolo was very successful as Giants DC. No matter what else he has done or not done with other teams and organizations, he was still very successful as Giants DC.
He knows TC, JR and ownership, they know him. All sides know they can work together. Big plus.
He needs to rebuild his reputation. That's actually a plus for the Giants, IMO.
[quote] but it seems that with a HC on the last year of his contract and the concomitant possibility (probability?) of upheaval after next year, it may be tough to attract a top-flight DC candidate. Under the circumstances, a Spagnolo-type candidate may be the best we can get. [/quote
define "top-flight" coordinator. Not trying to be sarcastic but who do you consider to be in that category
Sign me up!
Well he's in Baltimore. That's in the Northeast
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I remember him telling me that Steve's long term goals were returning to the northeast if an opportunity presented itself.
Well he's in Baltimore. That's in the Northeast
He's really a position coach though. DC would be a promotion.
How the hell can you say this with the way our secondary for YEARS has had breakdowns and WRs running wild at times. I never understand why we think this guy is so great.
The two seasons that Spags ran the defense is really the only time I can remember be EXCITED at the prospect of our D taking the field. It seemed as if every time that defense went out, there was always a force fumble, INT, or a major hit that would make you get to your feet and cheer.
This is a move I hope the Giants make.
Why would a 4-3 DC be first on your list when the current roster is built for a 3-4?
Nevermind, it's anak. I should know better to ask...
I hope it happens, will be a return to an attack style D.
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Fang should be the first choice though
Why would a 4-3 DC be first on your list when the current roster is built for a 3-4?
Nevermind, it's anak. I should know better to ask...
What the fuck? How is this team built for a 3-4?
I don't think it's about accountability,because if that were the case,people higher up would get it.This is about finding a pigeon,and Coughlin has the deck stacked in his favor.So he might end up with the biggest office in the Timex when it's all over with.With Mara setting up shop outside in the middle of the weeds.
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In comment 12060379 Tittle 9 20 64 said:
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I remember him telling me that Steve's long term goals were returning to the northeast if an opportunity presented itself.
Well he's in Baltimore. That's in the Northeast
He's really a position coach though. DC would be a promotion.
Right, but he said that Spags' ultimate goal is to return to the northeast. He's already in the northeast
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
I'm a little more bullish on the D talent especially if we keep JPP and find a suitable replacement for Rolle. I also believe there will be a couple well placed Jerry Reese shrewd additions (like we saw with Ayers last year).
If we hire a good DC with a system that actually fits our personell, I see a turnaround somewhat similiar to what we had from Lewis when we went to Spags.
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This team on defense sucks. If there was any time to make a system change it would be now. It's not like we are a player or so away on defense. We could use an upgrade almost everywhere. CB is the most complete position out of the defense. However, with the defense the way it is, this would be a time if one wanted felt like it to make that system change.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
I'm a little more bullish on the D talent especially if we keep JPP and find a suitable replacement for Rolle. I also believe there will be a couple well placed Jerry Reese shrewd additions (like we saw with Ayers last year).
If we hire a good DC with a system that actually fits our personell, I see a turnaround somewhat similiar to what we had from Lewis when we went to Spags.
Yeah that's what I liked about Spags as our DC. He took the same personnel and increased sacks from 2006 to 2007 by 21 sacks. That was all his blitz packages and utilizing players in creative ways.
Can that happen again? We will see, but I'd go with Spags right now over any potential DC who never did the job. If there is someone who has a better resume than Spags, then by all means. But if the candidate never had DC experience, than I'd go with Spags over that guy.
As far as 43 or 34, like I said, I don't care either way. If there was a time to make a chance this would be it. So if we chose to take it or not, I am not in favor of one over the other. Just as long as we hire a different coordinator, fine by me. Just give me an aggressive DC. It's too bad we can't get someone like Bowles or Horton. I loved what they did with Arizona.
Our defense has mostly sucked since, except for the stretch last year after we traded for Beason and he was still healthy
Haha, yeah, let's not get geographic :P . Point is, even if Maryland is not in the Northeast, it's not soooooo far away.
Nunn and (especially) Herrmann would likely be toast in a Spagnuolo II scenario. Names to watch from Spagnuolo's tenure in St. Louis would include Ken Flajole and Brendan Daly.
He's been in the league for 28 years, so he's had experience with EVERYTHING related to defense.
But he's made his bones on the 3-4.
Unless Mara decides to completely rebuild the defensive philosophy, Fangio would be a dumb hire.
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In comment 12060366 Anakim said:
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Fang should be the first choice though
Why would a 4-3 DC be first on your list when the current roster is built for a 3-4?
Nevermind, it's anak. I should know better to ask...
What the fuck? How is this team built for a 3-4?
Oops - meant 4-3 for the current roster.
You are going to mention the part of Spags having the magic potion to ensure having Tuck, Osi and Strahan for 100% of the games (48 of 48) in 2007 compared to the 54% they played the previous season (26 of 48) at some point, correct?
Sure helps a lot. Those 3 alone combined for 9 sacks in '06 and 32 in '07.
You see teams in the NFL underachieve with a high talent level pretty often.
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In comment 12060488 AnishPatel said:
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This team on defense sucks. If there was any time to make a system change it would be now. It's not like we are a player or so away on defense. We could use an upgrade almost everywhere. CB is the most complete position out of the defense. However, with the defense the way it is, this would be a time if one wanted felt like it to make that system change.
Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
I'm a little more bullish on the D talent especially if we keep JPP and find a suitable replacement for Rolle. I also believe there will be a couple well placed Jerry Reese shrewd additions (like we saw with Ayers last year).
If we hire a good DC with a system that actually fits our personell, I see a turnaround somewhat similiar to what we had from Lewis when we went to Spags.
Yeah that's what I liked about Spags as our DC. He took the same personnel and increased sacks from 2006 to 2007 by 21 sacks. That was all his blitz packages and utilizing players in creative ways.
Can that happen again? We will see, but I'd go with Spags right now over any potential DC who never did the job. If there is someone who has a better resume than Spags, then by all means. But if the candidate never had DC experience, than I'd go with Spags over that guy.
As far as 43 or 34, like I said, I don't care either way. If there was a time to make a chance this would be it. So if we chose to take it or not, I am not in favor of one over the other. Just as long as we hire a different coordinator, fine by me. Just give me an aggressive DC. It's too bad we can't get someone like Bowles or Horton. I loved what they did with Arizona.
Agreed. Yes, Horton or Bowles would be awesome with this personel especially if we hang on to JPP. I'd love to see what kind of jump Moore takes under a more aggressive DC too. I think he can be a top 10 DE in this league (at least from a pass rush standpoint) and much better than Kiwi ever was. JPP, an emerging Moore on the ends coupled with a returning Ayers and Wynn, then big Hank and a draft or FA addition in the middle is a very underrated DL going into next year IMO.
Spags had a track record of that for every position on defense.
I dunno....sounds like a good choice
If Reese has another good off-season in regards to the draft and FA, we will have alot to look forward to next year.
1) He was a rookie DC when he was here...and did well in year one...most people get better if only from a "been here" sense of confidence that radiates
2) He was a LB coach prior to that...a long ignored aspect of the Giants in FO and coaching mindshare that in the new NFL has resonance.
3) He won here with TC...newbies cannot argue with the idea that he knows something
4) Being through the rigors of an NFL Season at HC/DC since then teaches you from your failures and successes...and teaches you how to reach a wider variety of players and helps you understand what works and what does not
5) Spags was liked by his players because he listened
6) One mark of a good DC is not what scheme he favors...I think that may be over rated...but what evidence there is that he got players to play better?...and within a year?
In one year, Spags got (now not all due to him...but getting out of the way is genius and so is overwhelming evidence he got the best out of what he had):
A great year from OSi (on the run and the pass defense...last guy to get OSi to play run? Remember his game against Walter Jones that year?)
A great year from Tuck
one more good year from Strahan
Ditto Robbins
The best years AP and Mitchell ever had
The best year Corey Webster ever had after a few bad ones
a big contribution from Sam Madison
Ditto young players and rookies like Aaron Ross and Alford
Ditto JAGS like McQuarters, James Butler, Dockery, Gibril Wilson.
In sum...young, old, stars and Jags at all three levels...Dl, LB and DB all were reached,played and felt a part of something big and worked hard and studied and got better and better. Against all different kinds of schemes and challenges as the season went on.
Accident? Maybe....but you would be arguing against a lot of data. Some credit (even if getting out of the way) has to be given.
if it is Spags? A lot of reasons to think its a good thing
Great post Bill
You are going to mention the part of Spags having the magic potion to ensure having Tuck, Osi and Strahan for 100% of the games (48 of 48) in 2007 compared to the 54% they played the previous season (26 of 48) at some point, correct?
Sure helps a lot. Those 3 alone combined for 9 sacks in '06 and 32 in '07.
The schemes were totally different. Sure it obviously helps when your 3 guys stay healthy. But then again, when it comes to our team when have we actually stayed healthy? It seems like for years we have had positions get gutted. From LBs, to CBs, to RBs, to almost any position. This has been happening for a while. This year it was Cbs. Yeah it would be great if guys can stay healthy. You are correct it would help if those 3 could have stayed healthy. It also helps when you supplement your pass rushers with additional blitzes, you know ones, that actually get home. The creative use of personnel, and different blitz packages aided in the 21 sack increase. I did game break downs and some of the stuff he was doing was great to see when you draft it all up and map each play for a whole game.
He overloaded A gap, while bringing in a safety and then a CB from the slot. It was great blitz packages that forced the QB to get rid of the ball early or get sacked. You could not step up because someone was coming from A gap. You could not move around left or right, because your DEs were coming around the corner. If by chance you saw daylight to try to move around, you saw a slot Cb coming in.
Not to mention, moving personnel where Ross would be the safety on different plays but give the pre snap shell of a Cb. He fucked with opposing offenses while bringing in pressure.
That's why the sacks increased by a lot. You could very well have the Perry Fewell rush 4 and drop everyone else back, and teams could negate your pass rush by getting rid of the ball quickly.
But our scheme factored with our players accounted for an increase in sacks, which by the way was higher than Lewis in 2004,05, and 06.
04- 40 sacks
05- 41 sacks
06- 32 sacks.
That's just factoring sacks alone and not scheme which sucked and led to his firing. His treatment of Webster was god awful. You took a guy with potential and basically played zone with him. He used to berate the guy.
Spags changed the scheme and played man press with Webster and Webster responded.
07-53 sacks total
32 by those 3 and 21 more from other players.
Not only that Spags is actually the only coach under TC to get a HCing gig. Overall TCs coaching tree hasn't progressed. Tim Lewis hasn't even gotten another DC gig.
What's worse is the the guy made the playoffs 2/3 years AND still gets fired. That 23-20 loss to the Eagles in the wild game was awful. We had the god damn lead, and McNabb marched down the field and it set up an Akers FG.
Think of it this way. A DC goes to the playoffs 2/3 years, once against the Panthers at home, and once against the Eagles away, both loses. You would think this DC is a good DC that you can build upon by getting even more payers. I never was a fan of Lewis, but they fired his ass after going to the playoffs twice. Not only that he couldn't get a damn DC job again. 9 years as a position coach after that 2006 firing. There was a big different in how both coaches coached their defenses. Hence one guy being the most successful of the TC coaches, even though he didn't do well as a HC. Still out of all the coaches, he is the guy who got a HCing gig in the NFL while the others have not.
I never was a fan of the hirings of Tim Lewis, Sheridan and Fewell. But like I mentioned in this thread or another one, I don't care who we hire as a DC as long as they are aggressive. It's too bad we can't get Bowles or Horton as our DC. I like aggressive nature. I don't even care what system we use, 34 or stick with a 43 as long as this defense plays better. Right now. I have zero faith in our defense.
Just about any new hire will be able to do just as good a job.
Spags didn't pan out as a HC, that happens, so maybe his niche is as a DC in a stable environment such as the one the Giants provided under Coughlin?
I would like to see him brought back cause what matters to me is that he had success while he was here.
I remember him as having an excellent ability to dictate a suboptimal play to a QB on third down. My favorite defensive play the Giants have run in many years was the corner blitz on 3rd and 7+ that would cause the QB and WR to run a hot slant right into Kenny Phillips. The result was almost always a 6 yard gain and a punt.
If Spags is the guy it raises the importance of the safety position even more. Need smart players that will take good angles.
Additionally even when the Spags didn't send the corner/nickel blitz the opposing QB had to consider it. These are fraction of a second that are wasted by the QB pre snap and post snap. The more a QB has to worry about the better.
Ideally, I'd like to move forward and not backwards here but if he does come back, I'll welcome him and hope for the best.
I think he'll have some pressure packages with better design and I think he'll be more aggressive but I also think if he's fielding the same level of talent than Fewell was for most of this year, the overall results aren't going to be much different or much better.
Whoever is replacing Fewell is going to need more than just a good scheme to make the Giants a top 10 defense again. Personnel-wise, we're really not that close.
That's all fine and dandy.
If people think we have good PLAYERS outside of maybe 6 or 7, I think they are insane.
Our PLAYERS suck for the most part.
We have no personnel to speak of.
Really if we hire this guy, we should clean house and even trade Eli - we won't me competent for some time.
It's not like we had guys off the street starting at RCB and LCB. Webster was a 2nd rd pick and Ross was a 1st rd pick. Madison was a vet who was one of the best CB's in football in his prime and he was still able to play well when he was here. Dockery was also a pretty good slot CB in the Nickel.
But he had Strahan still playing at a high level and starving for a title, Tuck, Osi, Cofield, Kiwi all young and hungry and fast getting after the QB. Who wold he have now?
We have no personnel to speak of.
Really if we hire this guy, we should clean house and even trade Eli - we won't me competent for some time.
The never-ending coaching/system vs talent debate.
MacAdoo and Spags (round 1) have both shown how important good systems that fit the personell are and how they translate to better production on the field.
Subsequently it helps the collective personel play to their potential and well look 'talented'.
Spags returning could very well be part 3 of the lesson ;)
Keep JPP ,re-sign Rolle to a cap friendly deal, then a couple tweaks here and there and this D could make a similar jump as it did from Lewis to Spags a few years ago.
Thank you.
Kennard had 4.5 sacks this year in a year where he missed 4 games and had nagging hamstring issues for most of the season. Had he played all 16 games without the injuries, I don't think that would have been out of the question anyway.
The best Kiwi ever looked to me was early in 2010 but the neck injury ended his year early and he never really seemed the same afterward.
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"why Spags"?
1) He was a rookie DC when he was here...and did well in year one...most people get better if only from a "been here" sense of confidence that radiates
2) He was a LB coach prior to that...a long ignored aspect of the Giants in FO and coaching mindshare that in the new NFL has resonance.
3) He won here with TC...newbies cannot argue with the idea that he knows something
4) Being through the rigors of an NFL Season at HC/DC since then teaches you from your failures and successes...and teaches you how to reach a wider variety of players and helps you understand what works and what does not
5) Spags was liked by his players because he listened
6) One mark of a good DC is not what scheme he favors...I think that may be over rated...but what evidence there is that he got players to play better?...and within a year?
In one year, Spags got (now not all due to him...but getting out of the way is genius and so is overwhelming evidence he got the best out of what he had):
A great year from OSi (on the run and the pass defense...last guy to get OSi to play run? Remember his game against Walter Jones that year?)
A great year from Tuck
one more good year from Strahan
Ditto Robbins
The best years AP and Mitchell ever had
The best year Corey Webster ever had after a few bad ones
a big contribution from Sam Madison
Ditto young players and rookies like Aaron Ross and Alford
Ditto JAGS like McQuarters, James Butler, Dockery, Gibril Wilson.
In sum...young, old, stars and Jags at all three levels...Dl, LB and DB all were reached,played and felt a part of something big and worked hard and studied and got better and better. Against all different kinds of schemes and challenges as the season went on.
Accident? Maybe....but you would be arguing against a lot of data. Some credit (even if getting out of the way) has to be given.
if it is Spags? A lot of reasons to think its a good thing
Great post Bill
+1. The only thing I would add is his focus on fundamentals. TACKLING. doing your job.
It was 2008 after he was moved back to DE last minute after Osi got hurt in the Jet preseason game.
He played an excellent 2-way game that year, go back and look at his performance in Pittsburgh, among others.
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Not sure I am a fan of rehiring him, frankly I can take it or leave it, but he did have success with injuries.
But he had Strahan still playing at a high level and starving for a title, Tuck, Osi, Cofield, Kiwi all young and hungry and fast getting after the QB. Who wold he have now?
Moore, Wynn, Hankins, Kennard, possibly JPP
It was 2008 after he was moved back to DE last minute after Osi got hurt in the Jet preseason game.
He played an excellent 2-way game that year, go back and look at his performance in Pittsburgh, among others.
Totally agree. He was a top DE according to PFF a couple of those years.
He was TERRIBLE up until that Buffalo game.
What does Phi, Was & Dal have on D that is better
The parts are greater than the sum - that is the fault of the DC
What does Phi, Was & Dal have on D that is better
The parts are greater than the sum - that is the fault of the DC
It's the can't-see-past-the-production-on-the-field phenomena.
Many have trouble understanding the intangibles and can only process what they tangibly perceive.
Coaching and system are intangibles that require looking deeper than just watching an opposing receiver be wide open and saying it's a players fault.
There is quite a bit of talent on this team and we'll see it more visibly when a system that better fits their skillset is in place.
It was 2008 after he was moved back to DE last minute after Osi got hurt in the Jet preseason game.
He played an excellent 2-way game that year, go back and look at his performance in Pittsburgh, among others.
No shit. He broke his leg in 2007 and injured his neck in 2010.
He had 4 sacks in the first 3 games of 2010 and looked outstanding early on before the neck injury and to my eyes, has not been the same player since.
So, I think the posters who are hesitant about the Giants rehiring him are certainly justified.
However, the Giants personnel fits very well with the type of D Spags likes to run. He likes to use multiple DL packages that emphasize quickness to get to the passer and getting into the backfield to disrupt running plays. He is not a guy who plugs up the middle with massive run-stopping DTs. Jenkins, Hankins and even Bromley would appear to be Spags type DTs. Moore, Wynn and Ayers are exactly the type of DEs he likes.
He puts a lot of responsibility on his corners to play press coverage and go one-on-one. Giants have two of the best in DRC and Prince.
He needs LBers and safeties who can blitz. Kennard has already demonstrated that he can blitz. Giants safeties were awful this year and need to be upgraded regardless of who becomes DC.
Giants were 5th in the league with 47 sacks, playing for a DC, who blitzed only reluctantly. With Spags in charge, this could be a very potent pass rush.
You can't have it both ways.
Safety is bad but the Taylor kid has flashed at times and Berhe is a hitter.
LB this is really a mess Kennard can be special williams is really a saftey
McClain is a pro but not fast you really have to design a defense that does not require good LBs or hope for a good draft here.
Inside Dline you have a budding star in Hankins but not much more Bromley could be something Kuhn is useless.
DE get JPP back put him at RDE like Strahan he can grow there. Moore is raw and Osi like but can get to the passer. Ayers was a nice find and could be the old vet Wynn can be a good platoon with Moore. This can be a strong unit but you have no 4 aces. Maybe you can do something with Kiwi.
Couple FA and draft moves and this defense can be a force again.
On the other hand, plenty of position coaches on the Giants have worked with - and won with - Spags.
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 5m5 minutes ago
Only 1 current Giants defensive player was here with Spags: Kiwanuka. And we know what will likely become of him.
50..50. If thats true and TC is fighting to
keep a bad coach he's nuts.
50..50. If thats true and TC is fighting to
keep a bad coach he's nuts.
Where do you see 50/50???
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Top reporters saying Fewell firing is
50..50. If thats true and TC is fighting to
keep a bad coach he's nuts.
Where do you see 50/50???
Mmmm. Slater's 50/50 sounds good about now. Ever been, Damon?
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Top reporters saying Fewell firing is
50..50. If thats true and TC is fighting to
keep a bad coach he's nuts.
Where do you see 50/50???
You can basically ignore every single post bossman makes.
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Right now, I don't care what system we run. It's not like we are tearing it up running the 43 defense. If TC or whoever decides to shakes things up and convert to a 34 I am fine with that. If they want to continue a 43 but get a new DC to run it, that's fine too. Just don't bring back Fewell.
As far as 43 or 34, like I said, I don't care either way. If there was a time to make a chance this would be it. So if we chose to take it or not, I am not in favor of one over the other. Just as long as we hire a different coordinator, fine by me. Just give me an aggressive DC. It's too bad we can't get someone like Bowles or Horton. I loved what they did with Arizona. [/quote]
When Parcells used a 3/4 he had LT, Banks, Carson, Reasons, with Pepper Johnson as a reserve. That was an awesome group. Good LBs is also why the 49ers have been successful until several of them got injured this year. If you want to run a horse race, you need the horses.
Right now, the Giants LBs are mostly mediocre or worse. Kinnard has great potential & Beason can be good if he is not hurt. They have no one else to get excited about. To run a good 3/4 they would need at least 2 successful upgrades at the position & that is not likely. One of the things that I liked about Parcells & Spaguoulo is that they tailored their systems to the players & did not try to force the players into rigid roles that did not suit their talents, as you-know- does.
Reese , TC and Eli have done enough to prove to me that they know much more then anyone else on this forum.
so shut up and let it play out
Yeah, a secondary that has been ravaged by injuries. Do you even know about the Ravens' injury situation with their DBs?
I mean, was it lazy when the Steelers brought back Dick Lebough? No.
Exactly. The Spags critics are clueless. LeBeau came back to Pitt and was no longer a threat to become a HC elsewhere as well. I don't think Spags is going to go that route either at anytime in the near future. He's a natural fit.
He did benefit from a much better defensive line here than Fewell ever got, but there's no denying he had a lot of success, including holding the best offense in NFL history (at the time) to a mere 14 points in the Super Bowl.
Although I don't think he should be handed the job without looking at other candidates, the guy was a very good DC here during his short time and I would be happy to have him back.
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duplicate the Steelers coaching arrangement, with a long-term HC helped by a premier DC (LeBeau).
McAdoo = Tomlin
Spags = LeBeau
I had this same thought. After all the criticism of Coughlin's "coaching tree," it'd be hilarious if his final OC and DC followed him with a successful run.
My thoughts exactly.
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Hearing it is "50-50" that Fewell returns. Or is it "50-50" he is fired? Damn, I forgot to ask. Anyway, Giants still in process of deciding.
We have a few things to consider here:
Giants are very,very media sensitive and calculated in how they handle the media. They leak things out in deliberate fashion with a goal in mind. Fewell though thoroughly proven to not be a good fit for this defense (and perhaps not that great a DC) was a hard worker and company man. Bottomline, ownership are very loyal to those types.
They will at minimum work hard to make this look like a 'hard' decision to keep Fewell's stock as high as possible for future employment.
You think TC's comments weren't contrived and calculated when he said he wants to keep his whole staff intact?
However you sometimes never know with this ownership. The other part of this is the Giants are so loyal they can be blind to just how bad a fit a coordinator or coach is if he endears himself to the organization and is a high character person.
Though a sometimes admirable trait for an organization, let's hope it isnt the latter as this arguably is move that's been 2 years overdue at this point. Otherwise, we are throwing yet another year down the toilet.
Ravens 3rd Down Conversion 89/221.4027. Giants 72/200.360
Ravens pass defense 382/595 .642 11 int. Giants 324/522 .62 17
Ravens 49 sacks Giants 47.
Ravens passing yardsge: 4341. Giants 4163.
Talent evaluation: examine one Chykie Brown, who started 2 games in 4 years with Baltimore. They waived him. He started 4 games with the Giants, becoming Fewell's second best corner by the last month of the season.
Steve Spagnuolo owed his success with the Giants almost exclusively to the 4 Aces. In 07 he greatly benefitted by Strahan's Hall-of-Fame caliber play. Mike pulled a Koufax and retired at the top of his game. In 08 Tuck was the best defensive lineman in the game. Osi was in his prime. Should Spagnuolo return the sole remaining player from his 2-year stint with the Giants would be Kiwanuka, who everybody wants back. Whole different game now.
As for his benighted stay with the Saints, well, let us just say that we find out what is inside a guy when he faces adversity. But there is a comment above that is completely inaccurate. Rob Ryan took the unit over in 13. He had them 4th in total defense. 2 against the pass. 4 in sacks. & 4 in points allowed. And those are facts, not subjective colorations and cliched flash-card responses like "read and react," "Tampa 2," and "passive." Lousy personnel makes defenses appear passive because they cannot win their individual matches and are constantly behind the play. The Giants will soon have a new DC. Great they better get 4-5 new starters. Spags would be a lousy choice for DC. And this is my personal favorite about this situation: Spagnuolo is a Cover 2 coach. Is that irony?
I think the Giants are realizing more than ever that schemes with clearer communication that aim to dictate terms work so much more effectively at unleashing natural physical talent, rhythm, and passion from players rather than passive and defeatist attitudes of former systems that IMO was derailing for players and passion (gilbride,lewis, sheridan, fewell)
As Bill2 said, brilliance is also listening and being able to get out of your own way. One of the few times Fewell got out of his own way was during the stretch run in 2011 when he adjusted the defense because there were 'miscommunications" (sound familiar?) occurring. I remember in the weeks prior to the close of the regular season Kenny Philips alluded to changes in scheme and communication that would help the defense know their roles, become more aggressive, and excel. Phillips was almost cocky in how much he felt these changes would help the team, and that always stuck with me. From there on out, the defense looked much more sure and aggressive. We all know the rest of the story.
I was also one of the major advocates for a new offensive system last year (really for many years) and would have leaped from the Empire State Building if Sullivan was hired. I always felt Eli was at least a 30+ td and low teens int guy. This year he's pretty much proven that. Throw out that SF game and Eli was pretty much at that 30+/10 line, with a mediocre o-line, and young and suspect talent. And there's been no aw shucks, cruddy body language. Eli's looked his most passionate ever, and I think that stems from him knowing it's in his hands, and can't be ripped away by insane numbers of miscommunications. I think the defense is at this crossroads with Fewell.
Now let's look at the defense. Why does it seem that every year Fewell has to adjust the playbook so guys don't miscommunicate? In my world, if it's to the point where guys are fucking up too often, maybe you're trying to be too smart for your own good. The one thing Spags was very good at was ensuring is that if you're going to lose, let it be on the merit of the players, but go after it... Spags played aggressive, to win the game, and allowed a player to play with their god given physical skill set. In a primal sort of way, this sort of system is very energizing. Ask Corey Webster what it did for him when he was no longer having his talent railroaded and stranded on Tim Lewis' Cover 3 island. That's the same passive crap as rushing 3 and dropping 8 into coverage, begging to be picked apart. You tell me which you'd rather play in?
As other posters have alluded to, which is my hunch as well... The Giants could very well be setting themselves up with two coaches in McAdoo and Spaguolo that could potentially be paired together for a long time to come. The Tomlin and Lebeau comparison's aren't far off, and what a great situation that would be if it could work out that way. Spags is already 55, he's approaching that area where he could become a long-term DC. Continuity is king if you have the right ingredients. The Steelers do. We can too.
I think most exciting of all is having two coordinators with philosophies that don't allow us to beat ourselves, schemes players have shown they enjoy playing in, and systems that play to win in an excitable and aggressive fashion putting the onus on the players...
What's not to like? Let's do this NYG. Welcome back Spags.
Unfortunately, people will just keep believing what they want to believe. Spags gets the injury excuse but it doesn't apply to Fewell.
And the Cover 2 stuff is really the best.
I'm not calling for a hero's welcome for Spags, but he's an upgrade. His Rams and New Orleans stints weren't any more embarrassing than Gilbride's San Diego stint, LeBeau's Cincy stint, or Josh McDaniels' Denver debacle - and those guys all returned to their former masters and excelled as coordinators.
I'm not calling for a hero's welcome for Spags, but he's an upgrade. His Rams and New Orleans stints weren't any more embarrassing than Gilbride's San Diego stint, LeBeau's Cincy stint, or Josh McDaniels' Denver debacle - and those guys all returned to their former masters and excelled as coordinators.
That defense won a Super Bowl.
not the best option, but an option I wouldn't HATE.
If Spags comes back, I will back him 100% and hope for the best. I just am not going to expect much unless the personnel improves because no one is fielding a top 10 defense with the guys Fewell had this year.
Fewell
2010: 21.7 ppg, 16th
2011: 25 ppg, 24th
2012: 21.5 ppg, 12th
2013: 23.9 ppg, 18th
2014: 25 ppg, 22nd
Spags:
2007: 21.9, 17th
2008: 18.4, 5th
The 2008 team was obviously a great team - the defense was a big part of the reason we made it back to the playoffs.
We could arguably for the first time in the TC era have BOTH offensive and defensive systems that are player friendly and take best advantage of our players.
BP in NJ : 1:03 pm : link : reply
stats are misleading.n 2009 was Bill Sheridan if i'm not mistaken, and he was the worst DC in the history of football...
When defenses are ranked, why are they ranked by the yardage they give up? What does yardage have to do with win/losses?
It's points allowed, to me, that determines how good a defense is....
Sheridan's defense was ranked 13th, yes....in freakin' yardage......they were 30th in points.....
As for Spag's, I have no idea why he would want to come here.....he would be expected to turn this team right around....when he came here, the players were in place, for the most part....and he got the most out of them.....
At this very moment, this defense has no linebackers or safties....injured corners.....the best DLman may be leaving....one solid DT.....the rest either have no experience or are stop gap at best....
Any DC, would need the help of a good GM to get him the players he needs.....this could easily be a 2-3 year rebuild on defense.....
Spag's would be coming back to a nightmare......he'd be crazy to accept this job.....and as mentioned, who wants to be DC, with TC year to year, unless there is a promise of being the head coach....
The question should be, 'does Spags' previous seasons with the Giants give him a leg up, an advantage, on rebuilding the Giants D? As opposed to DC's who've never been with the team at all. Is there some kind of intangible that could be at work here with Spags and not with someone else.
All kidding aside, I'd rather have an up and coming name that impresses the front office (like McAdoo) for the defense. The only thing we know for sure about Spags is that we have no idea at this point if he's a good defensive coordinator. I loved his constant blitzing attitude and I think in today's NFL that is how you have to play, but he was just God awful in New Orleans.
Part of the problem is a lack of athleticism. Part of it is we are either undisciplined or lacking in mental capacity. Can't tell from my couch which it is, I'd have to be in practice a few days to figure out what the fuck is wrong with them.
The drops are text book from what I can see. The reaction from there is comic book.
Re. the meltdown against the read option in the Seahawks game, however, Dorgan unloaded on Fewell with both barrels (bold face added for emphasis):
The shallow chase works somewhat against strict zone run, but never against veer or zone read.
I'm not a guy who calls for coaches' heads, but he needs to go. No ifs, ands or buts. Firing him today is a year too late for my taste.
Fewell was trying to use a switch call with the OLB or the CB on contain, but several times we were in man coverage and the two defenders he's got on QB are dropping into coverage.
Just a recipe for disaster. I hate shallow chase concepts except when you're up against a zone run team. It can be effective then when the RB tries for the backside cut, but against any type of option it puts too much pressure on your OLBers and CBs. Coupling the shallow chase switch call with man coverage is completely unsound.
It leaves you with NO ONE on the QB.
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In comment 12060831 PatersonPlank said:
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Not sure I am a fan of rehiring him, frankly I can take it or leave it, but he did have success with injuries.
But he had Strahan still playing at a high level and starving for a title, Tuck, Osi, Cofield, Kiwi all young and hungry and fast getting after the QB. Who wold he have now?
Moore, Wynn, Hankins, Kennard, possibly JPP
Which of these is a premier pass rusher? Wynn is a guy off the street, Moore is still a maybe. Kennard too, he played just 4 games. JPP a good player, but hasn't been a premier pass rusher since 2011 when Tuck was still playing well. Strahan, Osi and Tuck were all premier guys .
He used these blitz packages everywhere he went but New Orleans not sure why but according to his wiki
" Spagnuolo learned under Philadelphia coach Jim Johnson, and shares the same aggressive, blitz-heavy approach as his mentor. (He did not incorporate this philosophy during his time in New Orleans however)"
He used these blitz packages everywhere he went but New Orleans not sure why but according to his wiki
" Spagnuolo learned under Philadelphia coach Jim Johnson, and shares the same aggressive, blitz-heavy approach as his mentor. (He did not incorporate this philosophy during his time in New Orleans however)"
Probably because he follows the HC wishes. Even though Payton was suspended you have to believe the tone at the top was in place and he didn't have the autonomy he needed.
That's pure speculation. Just my guess