I appreciate continuity and how the organization treats it's employees with more class than most. It certainly has it's place but to a point.
When the same issues on Defense rear their ugly head year after year and you turn a blind eye toward it that is unacceptable.
Our blind loyalty is unfair to the fans and greatly affects the quality of the product on the field.
Fewell's defense has broken historical records for ineptitude and quite truthfully should have been replaced 1-2 years ago.
Many may feel alot falls on the players and it may to an extent but DC is perhaps one of the most important coaching positions in ALL of sports.
We saw similiar defensive personell win a Superbowl going from Lewis to Spagnuolo in his first year here.
We saw Cowher win a superbowl when he brought in LeBeau. We saw the Rams win one when they brought in Lovie Smith etc.
The blind loyalty of ownership and Coughlin and desire to shelter and protect their own is clouding their judgement.
We saw a sizeable leap in the offense when Gilbride was replaced despite probably being one of the least talented units we've ever had under TC.
I see a similar big jump especially if JPP is retained IF we finally make the right (well overdue) move of replacing Fewell with a DC that takes advantage of our players strengths not hinders them with confusing schemes and zone coverages.
Don't throw another year down the toilet Gmen. It's time we have both an OC and DC that put their players in best position to succeed.
If the Giants can get and stay healthy, continue to pressure the quarterback, Fewell s defense can be a top 15 defense. That should be good enough.
If the Giants can get and stay healthy, continue to pressure the quarterback, Fewell s defense can be a top 15 defense. That should be good enough.
Joe he has had one good 6 game stretch in 5 years where he made adjustments going away from his own defensive philosophies/tendencies to do so.
One 6 game stretch and a bunch of mediocrity and inconsistency.
You can't keep blindly going back to the Well.
My guess is that he would like to have those words back. However, as someone who paid too much for his PSLs and then a lot of money for season tickets year after year... I find his comment there to be unacceptable and one I would expect from someone like Daniel Snyder.
Don't believe that for a minute. It's a business and every dollar counts.
They don't care how 1 person spends their Sundays but will care if people stop showing up next season. If by game 4 they are 0-4 or 1-3 the fans need to hold a ticket burning. Don't sell your tickets to other fans who will go into the stadium and spend money. The only way that ownership listens to fans is when their revenue suffers. If people don't go to the game and buy merchandise and food then they are stuck paying all of the workers, have to toss all of the food and they will take notice.
He said last season (2013) was unacceptable, too. So much for that. He's a bullshitter just like the rest of them, sadly.
Everyone is coaching for their jobs.
If TC decides to let his fate ride with those two than so be it. He will win with them or be fired next year. Hopefully with better health they will have a better squad next year.
I may not agree with the status quo.... But the argument that the problem is a thin roster and injuries is hard to counter. Perhaps TC drew a line in the sand over Fewell. Does ownership really want to get into a pissing match with the guy they still believe in and brought you two Superbowls?
My guess is that Fewell is still gone. Why would they leave him twisting in the wind like they are if the decision to keep him was made already?
On behalf of the PSL owners who are forced to buy preseason scrimmages at the cost of a regular season game, (blank you). We do have a vested interest.
There have only been about 1,000 of these the past week.
Maybe, just maybe.. they have a plan? Maybe we'll see what it is in the coming days/weeks?
Complain away when there's an announcement that Fewell and Quinn are coming back. Until then? Calm the fuck down?
Key word, "available".
Secondly, are the Maras really as smart as many here on BBI think ?
Key word, "many". I don't think they are half as smart as the Krafts, who own the Pats.
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By the way, the Giants dont owe you anything. You are not a shareholder. What you are is an emotional stakeholder.
On behalf of the PSL owners who are forced to buy preseason scrimmages at the cost of a regular season game, (blank you). We do have a vested interest.
You knew what you were buying. Do you really think the Giants are trying to screw the fans? If this team had no injury issues and sucked... Then TC would have been shown the door. The team is making rational decisions based on information of how things transpired. I hope they make the right ones. Occasionally they do.
There have only been about 1,000 of these the past week.
Maybe, just maybe.. they have a plan? Maybe we'll see what it is in the coming days/weeks?
Complain away when there's an announcement that Fewell and Quinn are coming back. Until then? Calm the fuck down?
Agreed. All this whining is immature and honestly pathetic.
This is looking like the beginning of another "fifteen years of lousy football."
42 & 46!!
Aside from the Steelers and maybe the Pats not one fanbase wouldn't trade positions with Giants fans.
We have a FO and coaching staff who have delivered two SB victories in a ten year span.
After three down years, some want them gone. OK, impatient but with some justification maybe reasonable. But to imply that management doesn't give a shit, that they're clueless, that they all just magically know better because the results have been wise than usual is just petty nonsense.
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In comment 12069833 RetroJint said:
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By the way, the Giants dont owe you anything. You are not a shareholder. What you are is an emotional stakeholder.
On behalf of the PSL owners who are forced to buy preseason scrimmages at the cost of a regular season game, (blank you). We do have a vested interest.
You knew what you were buying. Do you really think the Giants are trying to screw the fans? If this team had no injury issues and sucked... Then TC would have been shown the door. The team is making rational decisions based on information of how things transpired. I hope they make the right ones. Occasionally they do.
I love your type of fan which mixes the salad. One says the Giants owe fans nothing and other days "you knew what you were buying".
1. Without the fans there is no NFL so those who think the NFL doesn't owe fans should STFU b/c we collectively we give more than we get.
2. The PSL's say it all
3. No PSL owner knew what they were getting. We had no idea the stadium experience would be shit compared to yesteryear (And you have to be at the stadium to understand it's more than the team). We also had no idea the Giants, for the 2nd year in a row, botched their own website which did not allow season ticket holders the opportunity to even donate their first preseason game. The site didn't work.
4. We had no idea flex schedules were coming. Ask how many Steelers fans knew tiered pricing was coming based on predetermined opponents.
Sure, to certain extent the season ticket holders knew some but it's asinine for anybody to say the Giants owe you nothing and the PSL holders knew what they were in for.
During the SB era there are only 5 teams with 4 or more SB rings:
Steelers: 6
Cowboys: 5
Niners: 5
NYG & Packers: 4
More recently, since TC has been HC only the NYG and Steelers have 2 SB wins and TC is the only HC with 2 SB rings during that span.
This includes the following HCs:
Belichick
Cowher
Dungy
Tomlin
Payton
McCarthy
John Harbaugh
Carroll
A pretty prestigious list. Let's not take what ownership has done for granted. There are plenty of towns/teams that haven't come close to even sniffing this level of success. The NFL is brutal- parity punishes winners and rewards the losers. We shouldn't lose site of what the Giants, Mara, and TC have accomplished (yes the same organization that was being panned on this board is 10 years ago for sticking with TC).
We've heard the status quo is unacceptable mantra from Mara 2 years ago. Well guess what? it's been status quo with this D no matter what type of reinforcements Reese brings in. Mara right now looks like a fraud unless a change is made.
If they want to play the continuity game and not look for a Fangio type then Spags needs to be brought here pronto at minumum. Its absolutely astonishing they are even considering bringing back Quinn.
lol - I know. How could so many fans who questioned the remaining tread on the tires of Diehl, Baas, Snee or Boothe? Even the owner himself questioned why it took so long to see if Jernigan could play. Was it ok to question why Clint Sintim was drafted? I do believe quite a few fans here have more than two brain cells rubbing together upstairs.
For this continuity obsessed ownership it's likely Spags or Fewell.
Many have goals that are hindered by their own personal biases and/or philosophies. Sure I'd love to be a millionaire but it doesn't automatically mean I have the best approach to get there either.
Marty, you're making too much sense. I'd venture to say that both are given the axe. What's that line that they say about insanity...doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
I'm not sure how long you've been following, but I spent the better part of adulthood on a waiting list because the Giants were - you guessed it - sold out.
Many of those years were non-playoff bearing, and only two SB appearances. And yet, sold out solid, no chance of getting tickets unless thousands of people ahead of me said no first.
Obviously, the Giants management loses money if we don't make the playoffs. Fewer games played, fewer concessions, gate receipts, games broadcasted, merchandise sold, etc.
It's in the Mara's best interest financially for the team to do well. To imply that all they care about is money and not winning is stupidity of the highest order.
"When the same issues on Defense rear their ugly head year after year and you turn a blind eye toward it that is unacceptable"
-----------same issues? This D was 8th in 2013.
lead nfl in takeaways in 2010.
won SB in 2011.
"We saw a sizeable leap in the offense when Gilbride was replaced despite probably being one of the least talented units we've ever had under TC".
----still cannot run the ball, havent been able to do so since 2010..
this team was decimated by injuries. stop fucking crying and ryde with your team.
GO GIANTS
We can nitpick nicey nicey stats with almost any defense over a five year stretch. The statistical list of HISTORIC bad numbers under Perry outweighs all that .
In this case, I agree that retaining these guys just sets a terrible example for the fans. Ownership keeps claiming they are fed up with losing, they will make changes, etc. Then nothing. I really don't know what I will do if Fewell is retained. I won't abandon this team. But, my expectations will be very low and I can't see watching next year with much passion.
New England.
I have always looked down on those Metropolitan area fans who became Cowboy fans when the Giants were in down times.
I hated when Giant fans claimed the Maras were cheap, even though there was a hard cap.
The plain fact is that New York fans are no better or worse than any other fans and we are about to undergo a period of time when those "front-runners" and those "Steinbrennerites" and the anti-Irish are about to jump ship and become Cowboy fans and Seahawks fans. All this talk now is just an attempt to justify their traitorous and cowardly desertion.
With tongue firmly in cheek
If we succeed in 2015 our 2016 HC is Fewell or MacAdoo. If we fail 2016 brings an all-new cast of characters.
In this case, I agree that retaining these guys just sets a terrible example for the fans. Ownership keeps claiming they are fed up with losing, they will make changes, etc. Then nothing. I really don't know what I will do if Fewell is retained. I won't abandon this team. But, my expectations will be very low and I can't see watching next year with much passion.
It's astonishing how many have forgotten the record breaking number of yards given up in like 3 of 5 of Fewell's campaigns.
Regardless of how lacking some may have thought the talent was (IMO it was usually at least average and many times well above avg) the talent was never that pathetically lacking to justify the truly abysmal performance on the field.
Rams won the SB with Giunta at DC, and lost in a big upset to NE with Love Smith.
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We saw the Rams win one when they brought in Lovie Smith etc
Rams won the SB with Giunta at DC, and lost in a big upset to NE with Love Smith.
Thanks for the correction, I thought they won a Supe with him. However, his addition did still make a huge difference:
From Wiki
While in St. Louis, Smith improved the Rams defense, which went from giving up a league-worst 29.4 points per game in 2000 to an average of 17.1 points in 2001. The Rams won the 2001 NFC Championship and advanced to Super Bowl XXXVI. The team ultimately lost to the New England Patriots.
Well put and totally correct. What I see now is similar to years ago prior to George Young era. Kiwi was starting as DE even though he was rated near the bottom of all DE's. Why? TC's ;oyalty to him. And this goes on through out this organmization. Its weird that so many on here keep going back to the 2 SB wins and dismiss the ineptitude and the country club setting that is existent now.
The players seeing this has to effect their performance as well. As long as their fans keep buying tickets and show up to the games, why should ownership make necessary changes?
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when Wellington Mara was making executive decisions, and none in sight, only year after year of lousy football. When Giant fans finally rebelled, the NFL pressured Mara into yielding control. Young-Accorsi-Reese have brought in 4 championships, but in the last couple of years, as the ship has sunk deeper, the Maras suddenly are again the face of the franchise and sounding as if they are calling the shots. For a Giants-lover this is very scary. And it got a lot scarier in the last few days as John M told us the team's troubles were essentially due to injuries and that his plan to improve is to hope for better luck.
Well put and totally correct. What I see now is similar to years ago prior to George Young era. Kiwi was starting as DE even though he was rated near the bottom of all DE's. Why? TC's ;oyalty to him. And this goes on through out this organmization. Its weird that so many on here keep going back to the 2 SB wins and dismiss the ineptitude and the country club setting that is existent now.
The players seeing this has to effect their performance as well. As long as their fans keep buying tickets and show up to the games, why should ownership make necessary changes?
Though it has improved somewhat over recent years, there is still alot of stubbornness and tunnel vision pervading this organization.
One of the biggest (which lies mainly with TC) is forcing players to adapt to the system rather than adjusting the system to accentuate your players best strengths.
The offensive system has finally been addressed in this regard ,let's pray the D (and heck maybe even STs) is next
Before you canonize a coach, think of 1970s Steelers. It's not a question of obligation. The only reason these teams have money to field a team is because folks pay to watch them: either directly by going to the stadium, or by spending 2 hours in every three-hour game watching beer and car commercials.
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But this quote from the thread starter needed fixed:
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We saw the Rams win one when they brought in Lovie Smith etc
Rams won the SB with Giunta at DC, and lost in a big upset to NE with Love Smith.
Thanks for the correction, I thought they won a Supe with him. However, his addition did still make a huge difference:
From Wiki
While in St. Louis, Smith improved the Rams defense, which went from giving up a league-worst 29.4 points per game in 2000 to an average of 17.1 points in 2001. The Rams won the 2001 NFC Championship and advanced to Super Bowl XXXVI. The team ultimately lost to the New England Patriots.
I remember well those Rams teams. My best friend at the time was a lifelong Rams fan. The Rams with Giunta as DC spent most of the year as the #2 defense in the league. They finished fairly highly ranked overall under Giunta.
The thing about being a defense on a Martz-led team is that the offense put the defense in terrible spot after terrible spot. Martz didn't care - he played to score and dared teams to keep up with him. Every single defensive coordinator had bad years working with Martz, and only Giunta and Lovie each had one good year.
The reason I make a point of this is that you can't just go on Wikipedia and decide who is a good coach and who isn't. Coaches do a heck of a lot more that doesn't show up in the box scores. Fans who look at box scores are missing the bigger picture. They fail to ask important questions like why did Giunta have a top defense one year, then the worst in the league the next, then good again the year after that, etc?
Why does Fewell have the record he has? How is it that a team that through the first five games of the year were 0-5 and had given up no less than 31 points per game, but later ended up going 7-4 and only gave up >30 points once, eventually ranking as a top ten defense?
Some people would say it was because they ran into five bad backup quarterbacks in a row. No doubt that helped. But with a completely inept offense that put them in so many bad positions, how were they able to keep 10 of their final 11 opponents below their season averages for points scored?
Some might say it was the addition of Beason to the defense, combined with the return of Will Hill from suspension. Beason, the same guy who was beat out of his starting position in Carolina by of all people, Chase Blackburn? The guy who was let go for a measly day three draft pick?
Does a coach actually get any credit for taking a team mid-season and showing improvements? Should we not consider everything when evaluating our coaches?
I don't mean to say that Fewell would be my top choice to coach this team. What I'm saying is that you can't just look up results in wikipedia to determine who is a good coach and why. You need to give a little credit to the guys who have spent an entire career around coaches and who have won to be able to evaluate a coach for his actual ability to be effective.
Coach Coughlin knows coaching, and he knows how to evaluate coaches, and all he wants to do is win the Super Bowl this next year. Give him a chance to pick out his staff and you can be sure that it will be the best coaching staff he could assemble. That should be good enough for you and for me.