.....loved him on Monday Night Matchups on ESPN during the late 80s. I forget who he was teamed with (Steve Sabol maybe) but he explained the game in a great, understanding way.
At a breakfast I attended annually. Hadn't seen him in at least five ye ars though. Of course most people had no idea who he was, we always made it a point to call him out, shake his hand. He was more than nice to us. God bless his soul and bless the family.
Always seems that a lot of well known people pass around the new year Â
Hi. You're right. The team stunk and their drafts were God awful. Wellington Mara headed the draft and picked players because their pictures were in Street and Smith magazine.
Rest in Peace Coach Sherman.
My dad would drive me up to the games that we would inevitably lose but it started something very special for me....Allie coaching, with Marty Glickman and Chip Cippola and Al "Dero" Derogardis in the booth....Joe Morrison #40 my favorite, and Spider, and Lurtsema...Katcavage, and Willie Williams.......teams sucked but I became hooked
goodbye Ali....trading Huff was horrendous, but the guy they got was a stiff running back. Sherman was an offensive guru. Ali was not very popular with his players. They could have won another title, if it weren't for Paul Hornung, the greatest all=around player I've ever seen.
was traded to the Guants while the Giants were playing the 49er's. In the second half the Giants didn't come close to touching YAT cause Sherman told them if they laid a finger in him they would be cut right there and then
Allie seems to mostly be remembered for the second part of his tenure, especially for trading away Sam Huff and other defensive stars after 1963.
But he was a brilliant offensive mind and was the first man to be named Coach of the Year twice, in 1961 and 1962. Sherman also brought the Giants into the modern era offensively, as Steve Owen hired him in 1949 to teach Charlie Conerly the T-Formation. He left in 1954 to go coach in the CFL as Jim Lee Howell preferred Vince Lombardi. After Lombardi went to Green Bay after 1958, Sherman came back and in 1959 coached Conerly to his best statistical season and the NFL MVP award.
Watching bad giant football. As I remember at the end no one like Sherman as coach. And as mentioned he pissed off people by trading huff a beloved linebacker. The best part of those days was Marty Glickman on the radio with my father. RIP Allie. A Giant forever
Took over for Jim Lee Howell, who was a good coach at the time. Allie basically dismantled the existing team after they got beat by Green Bay. His last few years were miserable. Great guy, not a great coach....but a Giant always. RIP
Anyone believing he was the worst Giants coach should read the following from the NY Times obit:
"Sherman’s teams lost only eight regular-season games on the way to Eastern Conference titles from 1961 to 1963. Sherman was voted the N.F.L. coach of the year in his first two seasons in balloting by sportswriters and broadcasters."
A two-time coach of the year, he possessed an amazing offensive mind, but the Giants got old and his coaching career went downhill from there.
I got to know him in later years after his coaching days had ended. Once drove him in my car from Palm Springs to L.A.
At the beginning of the trip I asked him one Giants-related question. He answered it non-stop for the next two hours until I dropped him off at his hotel. I never got the chance to ask a second question.
I watched them in 1959 but it was after Allie took over that I became a fan. How exciting yet depressing those first few years were!!! Always a bridesmaid never the bride. Then the next years of futility. RIP to another MOT.
But still he was a class act even if I did sing along the "Goodbye Allie" chant into the Alex Webster era. Trading Sam Huff was his worst decision. But he had great run with Y A Tittle and Del Shofner but for the Packers.
right on the sidelines of Franklin Field right before the start of the game. I was 21 years old and was on the field because Paul Stenko (Stenn) was an ex-NFLer and got me a side line pass.
I didn't approach him to shake his hand, but Paul, who was very bold, just went right up to Allie and introduced me. I was very embarrassed, because I knew with the game close at hand, that was not what Coach Sherman wanted to be doing.
Remember the 'goodbye Allie " chants at the games like it was yesterday. Think about the fact that the Giants let Lombardi and Landry leave and kept Allie instead.
giants head coach as well. Got a bad rap due to the poor drafting of the Maras.He also perhaps was father of the west coast offense. Thanks for the memories coach.
He became a very successful business man after leaving the Giants. And on the other end, he was featured prominently on the football pages of my aunt's Brooklyn College yearbook!
of the day he was fired. Seems to me I was at a Yankees game when they flashed it on the scoreboard and the crowd erupted. I say seems because I was like 6 and can't be certain, maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.
I do know for sure that my dad and older brother and pretty much every adult Giant fan I knew hated this guy with a passion. I guess they blamed him for the collapse of the franchise but he did have a lot of success those first few years so he couldn't have been totally incompetent (like a certain other guy who won't be named).
when the Giants owned NY--and were pretty much the class of the NFL. We've seen glory since but we should never forget his contribution to us all. RIP Allie Sherman
a championship had the games been played at neutral, warm-weather sites as in the SB era, especially the '63 game against the Bears. The 61, 62, and '63 games were all played in brutal conditions.
a championship had the games been played at neutral, warm-weather sites as in the SB era, especially the '63 game against the Bears. The 61, 62, and '63 games were all played in brutal conditions.
They were clearly better than the Bears. Not so the Packers.
Remember the 'goodbye Allie " chants at the games like it was yesterday. Think about the fact that the Giants let Lombardi and Landry leave and kept Allie instead.
It didn't exactly work like that -- they didn't have a choice in keeping Landry and Lombardi. The Giants would have certainly promoted one of them to head coach if Jim Lee Howell had stepped down as head coach sooner.
Offensive genius but the lack of a running game really cost the Giants when the weather got cold and nasty and the baseball fields they played on turned into a quagmire...then the Giants tried to overcompensate drafting Looney, Thurlow, Snell, Frederickson, and Mercein a two year period.
He benefitted during the regular season because the East was not as good as the West.
Still his team's played an exciting brand of offensive football, both with Tittle and later Tarkenton..but the magic was gone after the 1961 season, the trades that brought the Giants so much talent dissipated, instead of Tittle, Shofner, Walton, Dess, Scott, Lynch, Crow, Barnes and Summerall...outside of Aaron Thomas and Pete Case it was Guglielmi, Dudley, McElhenny, James, Crespino, Bundra, Stynchula, Swain, Pesonen, and Nelson.
The drafts produced Griffing, Timberlake, Skelly, Looney, Thurlow, Frederickson, Mercein, Lasky, Peay, D. Davis, and given that Don Davis began at LT, no premium defenders of note in the early rounds outside of Jerry Hillebrand.
The Tarkenton trade produced a 7-7 turnaround from 1-12, but it left few choices to Improve the rest of the team, instead it was trades of draft choices for Prestel, Vargo, Garcia, Lurtsema, B. Anderson, Costello, Colvin, Silas, Parker, Heck, Szczecko, that robbed the Giants of early to mid round selections.
But to pin that all on Sherman was wrong, Mara was still the one who made and signed off on the trades.
they were the best team in 1963, but the conditions were similar to the ice bowl. Title couldnt do much against a great bears D. halas told his players to go for title's knees. they got shutout in 1962 by one of the greatest teams ever, and lombardi had to call JFK because Hornung was in the army in Europe. :)Lombardi told Sherman, "you'll win if you can stop the sweep. you won't." They ran that play 22 straigt times. wow, Kramer, Jim Ringo, Forrest Greg, etc. all Starr had to do was handoff to Hornung and Taylor.
with Head Coach Allie Sherman. Learned a lot from watching his weekly show. I always liked him. "Seven Days To Sunday" is a great read. Came out around the same time as "Instant Replay."
but Howell wanted to retire, and Lombardi didn't the job because he was a dark skinned italian. It was a video, the life of Vince Lombardi. Brillian man, taught physics and chemistry.
read the question, it is a moot point about the year, but the G men finally offered him a job in 1959 but he was bitter. watch the video if it comes on again.Mara took him out to eat, but it was too late. So Well Mara left him sitting in the restaurant with no ride. :) So lombardi and Landry left and they got Alex Sherman. Sherman had too much power.
was offered the job before Sherman was hired and after he was fired. Green Bay wouldn't let him out of his contract in 1961 and the Tim Mara family wouldn't give up a percentage of the team.
Wellington Mara is given credit for the great trades like Tittle, Shofner, Walton & Barnes. Sherman was given credit for the bad ones like Huff & the defense. The drafts were terrible during the years he was coach. The bad trades and drafts continued long after he was fired, Craig Morton, Rocky Thompson, etc.
RIP Allie Sherman, the Giants official scape goat.
Lombardi coached the Packers against the Eagles in the 1960 championship game, which they lost. Chuck Bednarik sat on Jim Taylor in the final play as tie expired. The only title game Lombardi lost.
Sad news. Learnt a lot of Giants history through books and video.
Three straight division titles and three championship appearances in the early sixties. The last until SB XXI.
That DVD that came out about 7-8 years ago titled "The History of the New York Giants" has some great bonus footage of Allie Sherman coaching at Giants training camp one year in the mid-late sixties which was really cool to see.
He'll forever be remembered fondly by the memories of watching him strolling along the sidelines in his hat and overcoat. His teams weren't always good, but they were still my favourite team!
R.I.P. Allie Sherman!
What the hell does being Jewish have to do with being tough? Did you just decide that his religious affiliation was important?
You left out the part where many of the current/former owners in the NFL are Jewish too.
Marc Trestman was just fired - I guess he was not a tough Jew.
Are you a moron? You clearly don't know anything about Allie Sherman's life, and path from or what it's like to grow up as the son of immigrants in the 20's and persevere at a young age...
What does this have to do with owners being Jewish. And your Trestman comment makes even less sense. This isn't a religious discussion.
He embodied a lot of "tough Jews" who grew up in New York from that era. Just like there were "tough Italians", "tough micks" , "tough Greeks" "tough polacks", etc.
identify people by their religion when it is not needed. Perhaps you should look at yourself and try to understand why something like that is offensive. The fact that you don't means you just don't care.
I was one of those "tough" Jews. Part of my family grew up in Brooklyn in the exact era of Allie Sherman.I take offense to it. You didn't need to put that in there. Jam it up your bigoted ass and go away.
identify people by their religion when it is not needed. Perhaps you should look at yourself and try to understand why something like that is offensive. The fact that you don't means you just don't care.
I was one of those "tough" Jews. Part of my family grew up in Brooklyn in the exact era of Allie Sherman.I take offense to it. You didn't need to put that in there. Jam it up your bigoted ass and go away.
First off, I'm identifying him by his ethnicity, not religion (I have no idea how observant he was or whether he even practiced at all). Secondly, I am a Jew and my grandfather embodied what a "tough Jew" was growing up in the Bronx to poor immigrant parents from Russia and after returning with medals from WWII went on to have a very successful career in business and provide resources for his adoring family. Finally, you have proved you are anything but a "tough Jew". No "tough Jew" I know and relate to whines like a baby and finds things as trivial as this to be "offensive". You are an ignorant wimp.
Still Think Sherman's Jints Would Have Won
clatterbuck : 1/5/2015 7:03 pm : link : reply
a championship had the games been played at neutral, warm-weather sites as in the SB era, especially the '63 game against the Bears. The 61, 62, and '63 games were all played in brutal conditions.
The Giant offense, was a passing offense.....yes, they could run the ball, but Tittle and those receivers were the offense.....
Playing in those conditions obviously hampered the passing game.....
But even on a good field, those Packers teams would have beaten the Giants....
The Bears, that would have been a different story......the Bears were the best defense in the NFL.....their offense, that was another story....the Giant defense was no slouch themselves and easily could stop the Bear's offense....
When Del dropped that bomb in the championship game, I could not believe it.....even the two int's on screen passes...... Tittle goes out with the Knee....., the fact is, the Giant's defense, didn't want Tittle to go back in the game....they felt they could win with just Griffing handling the ball off to the RB's.....the defense would stop Chicago's offense.....but Tittle tried to gut it out.....threw that second int, which the Bears later scored on, and that was the ball game....there was no doubt they were going for Tittle's knees.....I can still see the Bear defender rolling on the ground towards his knee.....
Started watching the Giants in 1961.....so, '64 and the following years were hard to swallow....
I was a New York fan, in a Boston area......it all came crashing down in 1964.....the Yankees lost a 7 game series to the Cardinals in the fall of '64.....then the Giants followed that up with a team that aged over night....the Yankees followed suit the following year.....
Funny, both teams faced problems with their coaches after that.....Allie heard the boo birds in the years to come, especially after Huff was traded and other moves and draft picks were made....as for the Yankees, they canned Yogi after leading them to a 7 game world series loss, and did the unthinkable.....they hired the manager of the team that beat them, Johnny Keane....and the two teams simultaneously sunk into the depths of mediocrity for years....
Kind of hard, when as a kid growing up, your first exposure to sports, your favorite teams are BOTH champions for the first three years of your sports life, and then they fall on hard times.....never mind the fact that, I had to live through the 1967 season with Red Sox fans.....man, that was my personal "Dark Ages" in sports.....but I was given a gift, when I discovered the New York Knicks(my father finally put up a backboard in the driveway, and I became Walt Frazier)....but then, after the early 70's, the Knicks have never been a champion since...but I digress....
The Giants and Yanks were my first teams in 1961.....
I put all the blame on Allie, as a kid, for what happened to my Giants.....but as you get older, you find things are not all black and white....
and kicking at my shins like he always does (it's the highest he can reach anyways). Never misses an opportunity to whine about me.
My whole point is that you never identify people by their religion...if a Jew wants to do about himself, that's fine. But for others to do it is really low-rent. As I said, my family grew up in that era dirt poor.immigrants. They came to NYC. My great uncle always told me to never let people separate you because you're Jewish. He was a matre d' at a famous NY restaurant in the 30s, if someone ever told him he was an elegant man for a Jew, he would have hauled off and slugged him. He was an elegant man period.
You didn't need to phrase it that way. If your intent was to discuss his background and how he rose up from it, then you did a poor job. In a mixed crowd like this, that was unnecessary.
and kicking at my shins like he always does (it's the highest he can reach anyways). Never misses an opportunity to whine about me.
My whole point is that you never identify people by their religion...if a Jew wants to do about himself, that's fine. But for others to do it is really low-rent. As I said, my family grew up in that era dirt poor.immigrants. They came to NYC. My great uncle always told me to never let people separate you because you're Jewish. He was a matre d' at a famous NY restaurant in the 30s, if someone ever told him he was an elegant man for a Jew, he would have hauled off and slugged him. He was an elegant man period.
You didn't need to phrase it that way. If your intent was to discuss his background and how he rose up from it, then you did a poor job. In a mixed crowd like this, that was unnecessary.
Bake, again no one identified him by his religion and I am certainly not "separating him". He was a tough Jew, that's a fact and something he was proud of. You act like someone's ethnic background is an "off limits" sensitive topic, and almost sound as if you are ashamed to be a Jew yourself.
I have no doubt your uncle was an elegant man. However there is a HUGE difference in saying someone is an "elegant Jew" (or elegant Italian, Pole, Swede, etc.)and someone is an "elegant man FOR a Jew". I never stated Sherman was "tough FOR a Jew", that would be insulting.
You need to get over your bizarre inferiority complex and grow up.
is a BBI tribute to Allie by Larry.... Allie Sherman Passes Away - ( New Window )
Excellent work, Larry. Thank you.
My father was very bitter about the Giants' failures during Allie Sherman's tenure, so I didn't really know about the really good things he did as a coach for BigBlue. Reading Larry's tribute was very enlightening. Good to be reminded that Mr. Sherman did do a lot of good things for this franchise.
Loved 7 Days to Sunday. I think Webster was the coach. I know Tarkington was the QB
"Seven Days to Sunday" featured Sherman, it covered a week of the 1967 season. It is a great read, I highly recommend it.
It served as the prototype for "No Medals for Trying" 20 years later, which remains my favorite football book of all time.
I love that book too Larry. Have you read "Giants Among Men" about the Giants of the late 50s and early 60s? I really enjoyed that one too. There is a section in it about Sherman. While he was respected for his keen intellect, innovation and work ethic, Robustelli, Huff and some of the others pointed out that he was an ego maniac, unwilling to listen and dismissive of others for example, changing the very successful defensive blueprint left behind by Tom Landry, telling Huff to "shut up and play the defense that I tell you. Offensively though brilliant, he wouldn't change due to weather conditions or ineffectiveness. Maybe as a small guy who wasn't a great player he felt he had too much to prove.
He should be remembered though as a brilliant man who was successful in everything he ever ventured to do.
is a BBI tribute to Allie by Larry.... Allie Sherman Passes Away - ( New Window )
Excellent work, Larry. Thank you.
My father was very bitter about the Giants' failures during Allie Sherman's tenure, so I didn't really know about the really good things he did as a coach for BigBlue. Reading Larry's tribute was very enlightening. Good to be reminded that Mr. Sherman did do a lot of good things for this franchise.
RIP to a great coach.
My father played football and wore #70, as Sam Huff was his favorite player, and hated Sherman with a passion likely rivaled only by Huff himself!
Regardless, I hold no grudge and felt it important present Sherman objectively. Many of his accomplishments have been sadly forgotten. He was an extremely innovated coach. His offensive concepts were rivaled only by Paul Brown and Sid Gilman. He completely revamped the Giants offense to tailor the teams strengths (QB, backs & Homer Jones) and weaknesses (cheesecloth like OL) in the late 1960's. That offense was heavily borrowed from the Browns, who Sherman was very familiar with as the Giants played Cleveland twice each year. That is exactly what a good coach does.
I think Sherman gets tagged with too much blame for the late 1960's. I think Huff's public rants are much of the cause for that. When you take a step back and look over Sherman's entire body of work objectively (definitely include his Philadelphia tenure in that) and I think a pretty good coach will reveal himself.
Loved 7 Days to Sunday. I think Webster was the coach. I know Tarkington was the QB
"Seven Days to Sunday" featured Sherman, it covered a week of the 1967 season. It is a great read, I highly recommend it.
It served as the prototype for "No Medals for Trying" 20 years later, which remains my favorite football book of all time.
I love that book too Larry. Have you read "Giants Among Men" about the Giants of the late 50s and early 60s? I really enjoyed that one too. There is a section in it about Sherman. While he was respected for his keen intellect, innovation and work ethic, Robustelli, Huff and some of the others pointed out that he was an ego maniac, unwilling to listen and dismissive of others for example, changing the very successful defensive blueprint left behind by Tom Landry, telling Huff to "shut up and play the defense that I tell you. Offensively though brilliant, he wouldn't change due to weather conditions or ineffectiveness. Maybe as a small guy who wasn't a great player he felt he had too much to prove.
He should be remembered though as a brilliant man who was successful in everything he ever ventured to do.
Yes, that is a great book.
Take everything Huff says about Sherman with several grains of salt though!
Read about what Frank Gifford and Pete Gogolak have to say about Sherman too (it's on Giants.com)
Loved 7 Days to Sunday. I think Webster was the coach. I know Tarkington was the QB
"Seven Days to Sunday" featured Sherman, it covered a week of the 1967 season. It is a great read, I highly recommend it.
It served as the prototype for "No Medals for Trying" 20 years later, which remains my favorite football book of all time.
I love that book too Larry. Have you read "Giants Among Men" about the Giants of the late 50s and early 60s? I really enjoyed that one too. There is a section in it about Sherman. While he was respected for his keen intellect, innovation and work ethic, Robustelli, Huff and some of the others pointed out that he was an ego maniac, unwilling to listen and dismissive of others for example, changing the very successful defensive blueprint left behind by Tom Landry, telling Huff to "shut up and play the defense that I tell you. Offensively though brilliant, he wouldn't change due to weather conditions or ineffectiveness. Maybe as a small guy who wasn't a great player he felt he had too much to prove.
He should be remembered though as a brilliant man who was successful in everything he ever ventured to do.
Yes, that is a great book.
Take everything Huff says about Sherman with several grains of salt though!
Read about what Frank Gifford and Pete Gogolak have to say about Sherman too (it's on Giants.com)
and kicking at my shins like he always does (it's the highest he can reach anyways). Never misses an opportunity to whine about me.
My whole point is that you never identify people by their religion...if a Jew wants to do about himself, that's fine. But for others to do it is really low-rent. As I said, my family grew up in that era dirt poor.immigrants. They came to NYC. My great uncle always told me to never let people separate you because you're Jewish. He was a matre d' at a famous NY restaurant in the 30s, if someone ever told him he was an elegant man for a Jew, he would have hauled off and slugged him. He was an elegant man period.
You didn't need to phrase it that way. If your intent was to discuss his background and how he rose up from it, then you did a poor job. In a mixed crowd like this, that was unnecessary.
Bake, again no one identified him by his religion and I am certainly not "separating him". He was a tough Jew, that's a fact and something he was proud of. You act like someone's ethnic background is an "off limits" sensitive topic, and almost sound as if you are ashamed to be a Jew yourself.
I have no doubt your uncle was an elegant man. However there is a HUGE difference in saying someone is an "elegant Jew" (or elegant Italian, Pole, Swede, etc.)and someone is an "elegant man FOR a Jew". I never stated Sherman was "tough FOR a Jew", that would be insulting.
You need to get over your bizarre inferiority complex and grow up.
Perhaps a verse in Adam Sandler's 2015- Chanukah song. Can include Lyle Alzado too...
RE: He was a much better coach than Jim Lee Howell Â
So did mine. He also used to crack about the "phony southern accent". My dad never forgave him for trading Sam Huff
RIP, Allie!
Rest in Peace Coach Sherman.
Bad drafts, bad trades (Huff, Grier) also.
If you haven't read "Seven Days to Sunday" do yourself a favor and do so.
RIP Allie, we hate to see you go.
But he was a brilliant offensive mind and was the first man to be named Coach of the Year twice, in 1961 and 1962. Sherman also brought the Giants into the modern era offensively, as Steve Owen hired him in 1949 to teach Charlie Conerly the T-Formation. He left in 1954 to go coach in the CFL as Jim Lee Howell preferred Vince Lombardi. After Lombardi went to Green Bay after 1958, Sherman came back and in 1959 coached Conerly to his best statistical season and the NFL MVP award.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
my Dad may he rest in peace always said Allie Sherman was the worst Giants coach year after year.
So did mine. He also used to crack about the "phony southern accent". My dad never forgave him for trading Sam Huff
Ditto x 2
"Sherman’s teams lost only eight regular-season games on the way to Eastern Conference titles from 1961 to 1963. Sherman was voted the N.F.L. coach of the year in his first two seasons in balloting by sportswriters and broadcasters."
A two-time coach of the year, he possessed an amazing offensive mind, but the Giants got old and his coaching career went downhill from there.
I got to know him in later years after his coaching days had ended. Once drove him in my car from Palm Springs to L.A.
At the beginning of the trip I asked him one Giants-related question. He answered it non-stop for the next two hours until I dropped him off at his hotel. I never got the chance to ask a second question.
May he rest in eternal peace.
I didn't approach him to shake his hand, but Paul, who was very bold, just went right up to Allie and introduced me. I was very embarrassed, because I knew with the game close at hand, that was not what Coach Sherman wanted to be doing.
I do know for sure that my dad and older brother and pretty much every adult Giant fan I knew hated this guy with a passion. I guess they blamed him for the collapse of the franchise but he did have a lot of success those first few years so he couldn't have been totally incompetent (like a certain other guy who won't be named).
Much like now you an't make a silk purse from a sows ea.
They were clearly better than the Bears. Not so the Packers.
+1
Quote:
Said, respectfully
+1
+2
My dad thought the same until we witnessed John McVay and Ray Handley...
Quote:
my Dad may he rest in peace always said Allie Sherman was the worst Giants coach year after year.
My dad thought the same until we witnessed John McVay and Ray Handley...
That said, RIP Allie!
It didn't exactly work like that -- they didn't have a choice in keeping Landry and Lombardi. The Giants would have certainly promoted one of them to head coach if Jim Lee Howell had stepped down as head coach sooner.
He benefitted during the regular season because the East was not as good as the West.
Still his team's played an exciting brand of offensive football, both with Tittle and later Tarkenton..but the magic was gone after the 1961 season, the trades that brought the Giants so much talent dissipated, instead of Tittle, Shofner, Walton, Dess, Scott, Lynch, Crow, Barnes and Summerall...outside of Aaron Thomas and Pete Case it was Guglielmi, Dudley, McElhenny, James, Crespino, Bundra, Stynchula, Swain, Pesonen, and Nelson.
The drafts produced Griffing, Timberlake, Skelly, Looney, Thurlow, Frederickson, Mercein, Lasky, Peay, D. Davis, and given that Don Davis began at LT, no premium defenders of note in the early rounds outside of Jerry Hillebrand.
The Tarkenton trade produced a 7-7 turnaround from 1-12, but it left few choices to Improve the rest of the team, instead it was trades of draft choices for Prestel, Vargo, Garcia, Lurtsema, B. Anderson, Costello, Colvin, Silas, Parker, Heck, Szczecko, that robbed the Giants of early to mid round selections.
But to pin that all on Sherman was wrong, Mara was still the one who made and signed off on the trades.
That's not correct -- Jim Lee Howell was head coach from 1954-1960.
Wellington Mara is given credit for the great trades like Tittle, Shofner, Walton & Barnes. Sherman was given credit for the bad ones like Huff & the defense. The drafts were terrible during the years he was coach. The bad trades and drafts continued long after he was fired, Craig Morton, Rocky Thompson, etc.
RIP Allie Sherman, the Giants official scape goat.
Say hello to Wellington.
Three straight division titles and three championship appearances in the early sixties. The last until SB XXI.
and the Giants fell behind with poor drafts and unlucky transactions.
Allie was the coach as the Giants went downhill.
You left out the part where many of the current/former owners in the NFL are Jewish too.
Marc Trestman was just fired - I guess he was not a tough Jew.
Allie Sherman Passes Away - ( New Window )
R.I.P. Allie Sherman!
You left out the part where many of the current/former owners in the NFL are Jewish too.
Marc Trestman was just fired - I guess he was not a tough Jew.
Are you a moron? You clearly don't know anything about Allie Sherman's life, and path from or what it's like to grow up as the son of immigrants in the 20's and persevere at a young age...
What does this have to do with owners being Jewish. And your Trestman comment makes even less sense. This isn't a religious discussion.
He embodied a lot of "tough Jews" who grew up in New York from that era. Just like there were "tough Italians", "tough micks" , "tough Greeks" "tough polacks", etc.
Get a life and a clue!
I was one of those "tough" Jews. Part of my family grew up in Brooklyn in the exact era of Allie Sherman.I take offense to it. You didn't need to put that in there. Jam it up your bigoted ass and go away.
I was one of those "tough" Jews. Part of my family grew up in Brooklyn in the exact era of Allie Sherman.I take offense to it. You didn't need to put that in there. Jam it up your bigoted ass and go away.
First off, I'm identifying him by his ethnicity, not religion (I have no idea how observant he was or whether he even practiced at all). Secondly, I am a Jew and my grandfather embodied what a "tough Jew" was growing up in the Bronx to poor immigrant parents from Russia and after returning with medals from WWII went on to have a very successful career in business and provide resources for his adoring family. Finally, you have proved you are anything but a "tough Jew". No "tough Jew" I know and relate to whines like a baby and finds things as trivial as this to be "offensive". You are an ignorant wimp.
+2
Shhh, don't tell Bake54, his feeling may get hurt.
clatterbuck : 1/5/2015 7:03 pm : link : reply
a championship had the games been played at neutral, warm-weather sites as in the SB era, especially the '63 game against the Bears. The 61, 62, and '63 games were all played in brutal conditions.
The Giant offense, was a passing offense.....yes, they could run the ball, but Tittle and those receivers were the offense.....
Playing in those conditions obviously hampered the passing game.....
But even on a good field, those Packers teams would have beaten the Giants....
The Bears, that would have been a different story......the Bears were the best defense in the NFL.....their offense, that was another story....the Giant defense was no slouch themselves and easily could stop the Bear's offense....
When Del dropped that bomb in the championship game, I could not believe it.....even the two int's on screen passes...... Tittle goes out with the Knee....., the fact is, the Giant's defense, didn't want Tittle to go back in the game....they felt they could win with just Griffing handling the ball off to the RB's.....the defense would stop Chicago's offense.....but Tittle tried to gut it out.....threw that second int, which the Bears later scored on, and that was the ball game....there was no doubt they were going for Tittle's knees.....I can still see the Bear defender rolling on the ground towards his knee.....
Started watching the Giants in 1961.....so, '64 and the following years were hard to swallow....
I was a New York fan, in a Boston area......it all came crashing down in 1964.....the Yankees lost a 7 game series to the Cardinals in the fall of '64.....then the Giants followed that up with a team that aged over night....the Yankees followed suit the following year.....
Funny, both teams faced problems with their coaches after that.....Allie heard the boo birds in the years to come, especially after Huff was traded and other moves and draft picks were made....as for the Yankees, they canned Yogi after leading them to a 7 game world series loss, and did the unthinkable.....they hired the manager of the team that beat them, Johnny Keane....and the two teams simultaneously sunk into the depths of mediocrity for years....
Kind of hard, when as a kid growing up, your first exposure to sports, your favorite teams are BOTH champions for the first three years of your sports life, and then they fall on hard times.....never mind the fact that, I had to live through the 1967 season with Red Sox fans.....man, that was my personal "Dark Ages" in sports.....but I was given a gift, when I discovered the New York Knicks(my father finally put up a backboard in the driveway, and I became Walt Frazier)....but then, after the early 70's, the Knicks have never been a champion since...but I digress....
The Giants and Yanks were my first teams in 1961.....
I put all the blame on Allie, as a kid, for what happened to my Giants.....but as you get older, you find things are not all black and white....
RIP Allie Sherman....
My whole point is that you never identify people by their religion...if a Jew wants to do about himself, that's fine. But for others to do it is really low-rent. As I said, my family grew up in that era dirt poor.immigrants. They came to NYC. My great uncle always told me to never let people separate you because you're Jewish. He was a matre d' at a famous NY restaurant in the 30s, if someone ever told him he was an elegant man for a Jew, he would have hauled off and slugged him. He was an elegant man period.
You didn't need to phrase it that way. If your intent was to discuss his background and how he rose up from it, then you did a poor job. In a mixed crowd like this, that was unnecessary.
My whole point is that you never identify people by their religion...if a Jew wants to do about himself, that's fine. But for others to do it is really low-rent. As I said, my family grew up in that era dirt poor.immigrants. They came to NYC. My great uncle always told me to never let people separate you because you're Jewish. He was a matre d' at a famous NY restaurant in the 30s, if someone ever told him he was an elegant man for a Jew, he would have hauled off and slugged him. He was an elegant man period.
You didn't need to phrase it that way. If your intent was to discuss his background and how he rose up from it, then you did a poor job. In a mixed crowd like this, that was unnecessary.
Bake, again no one identified him by his religion and I am certainly not "separating him". He was a tough Jew, that's a fact and something he was proud of. You act like someone's ethnic background is an "off limits" sensitive topic, and almost sound as if you are ashamed to be a Jew yourself.
I have no doubt your uncle was an elegant man. However there is a HUGE difference in saying someone is an "elegant Jew" (or elegant Italian, Pole, Swede, etc.)and someone is an "elegant man FOR a Jew". I never stated Sherman was "tough FOR a Jew", that would be insulting.
You need to get over your bizarre inferiority complex and grow up.
Excellent work, Larry. Thank you.
My father was very bitter about the Giants' failures during Allie Sherman's tenure, so I didn't really know about the really good things he did as a coach for BigBlue. Reading Larry's tribute was very enlightening. Good to be reminded that Mr. Sherman did do a lot of good things for this franchise.
RIP to a great coach.
"Seven Days to Sunday" featured Sherman, it covered a week of the 1967 season. It is a great read, I highly recommend it.
It served as the prototype for "No Medals for Trying" 20 years later, which remains my favorite football book of all time.
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Loved 7 Days to Sunday. I think Webster was the coach. I know Tarkington was the QB
"Seven Days to Sunday" featured Sherman, it covered a week of the 1967 season. It is a great read, I highly recommend it.
It served as the prototype for "No Medals for Trying" 20 years later, which remains my favorite football book of all time.
I love that book too Larry. Have you read "Giants Among Men" about the Giants of the late 50s and early 60s? I really enjoyed that one too. There is a section in it about Sherman. While he was respected for his keen intellect, innovation and work ethic, Robustelli, Huff and some of the others pointed out that he was an ego maniac, unwilling to listen and dismissive of others for example, changing the very successful defensive blueprint left behind by Tom Landry, telling Huff to "shut up and play the defense that I tell you. Offensively though brilliant, he wouldn't change due to weather conditions or ineffectiveness. Maybe as a small guy who wasn't a great player he felt he had too much to prove.
He should be remembered though as a brilliant man who was successful in everything he ever ventured to do.
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is a BBI tribute to Allie by Larry.... Allie Sherman Passes Away - ( New Window )
Excellent work, Larry. Thank you.
My father was very bitter about the Giants' failures during Allie Sherman's tenure, so I didn't really know about the really good things he did as a coach for BigBlue. Reading Larry's tribute was very enlightening. Good to be reminded that Mr. Sherman did do a lot of good things for this franchise.
RIP to a great coach.
My father played football and wore #70, as Sam Huff was his favorite player, and hated Sherman with a passion likely rivaled only by Huff himself!
Regardless, I hold no grudge and felt it important present Sherman objectively. Many of his accomplishments have been sadly forgotten. He was an extremely innovated coach. His offensive concepts were rivaled only by Paul Brown and Sid Gilman. He completely revamped the Giants offense to tailor the teams strengths (QB, backs & Homer Jones) and weaknesses (cheesecloth like OL) in the late 1960's. That offense was heavily borrowed from the Browns, who Sherman was very familiar with as the Giants played Cleveland twice each year. That is exactly what a good coach does.
I think Sherman gets tagged with too much blame for the late 1960's. I think Huff's public rants are much of the cause for that. When you take a step back and look over Sherman's entire body of work objectively (definitely include his Philadelphia tenure in that) and I think a pretty good coach will reveal himself.
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In comment 12077304 Reale01 said:
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Loved 7 Days to Sunday. I think Webster was the coach. I know Tarkington was the QB
"Seven Days to Sunday" featured Sherman, it covered a week of the 1967 season. It is a great read, I highly recommend it.
It served as the prototype for "No Medals for Trying" 20 years later, which remains my favorite football book of all time.
I love that book too Larry. Have you read "Giants Among Men" about the Giants of the late 50s and early 60s? I really enjoyed that one too. There is a section in it about Sherman. While he was respected for his keen intellect, innovation and work ethic, Robustelli, Huff and some of the others pointed out that he was an ego maniac, unwilling to listen and dismissive of others for example, changing the very successful defensive blueprint left behind by Tom Landry, telling Huff to "shut up and play the defense that I tell you. Offensively though brilliant, he wouldn't change due to weather conditions or ineffectiveness. Maybe as a small guy who wasn't a great player he felt he had too much to prove.
He should be remembered though as a brilliant man who was successful in everything he ever ventured to do.
Yes, that is a great book.
Take everything Huff says about Sherman with several grains of salt though!
Read about what Frank Gifford and Pete Gogolak have to say about Sherman too (it's on Giants.com)
But he was smart enough to realize he had 2 great and innovative coaches in Lombardi and Landry and gave them free rein.
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In comment 12077336 truebluelarry said:
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In comment 12077304 Reale01 said:
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Loved 7 Days to Sunday. I think Webster was the coach. I know Tarkington was the QB
"Seven Days to Sunday" featured Sherman, it covered a week of the 1967 season. It is a great read, I highly recommend it.
It served as the prototype for "No Medals for Trying" 20 years later, which remains my favorite football book of all time.
I love that book too Larry. Have you read "Giants Among Men" about the Giants of the late 50s and early 60s? I really enjoyed that one too. There is a section in it about Sherman. While he was respected for his keen intellect, innovation and work ethic, Robustelli, Huff and some of the others pointed out that he was an ego maniac, unwilling to listen and dismissive of others for example, changing the very successful defensive blueprint left behind by Tom Landry, telling Huff to "shut up and play the defense that I tell you. Offensively though brilliant, he wouldn't change due to weather conditions or ineffectiveness. Maybe as a small guy who wasn't a great player he felt he had too much to prove.
He should be remembered though as a brilliant man who was successful in everything he ever ventured to do.
Yes, that is a great book.
Take everything Huff says about Sherman with several grains of salt though!
Read about what Frank Gifford and Pete Gogolak have to say about Sherman too (it's on Giants.com)
will do thanks
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and kicking at my shins like he always does (it's the highest he can reach anyways). Never misses an opportunity to whine about me.
My whole point is that you never identify people by their religion...if a Jew wants to do about himself, that's fine. But for others to do it is really low-rent. As I said, my family grew up in that era dirt poor.immigrants. They came to NYC. My great uncle always told me to never let people separate you because you're Jewish. He was a matre d' at a famous NY restaurant in the 30s, if someone ever told him he was an elegant man for a Jew, he would have hauled off and slugged him. He was an elegant man period.
You didn't need to phrase it that way. If your intent was to discuss his background and how he rose up from it, then you did a poor job. In a mixed crowd like this, that was unnecessary.
Bake, again no one identified him by his religion and I am certainly not "separating him". He was a tough Jew, that's a fact and something he was proud of. You act like someone's ethnic background is an "off limits" sensitive topic, and almost sound as if you are ashamed to be a Jew yourself.
I have no doubt your uncle was an elegant man. However there is a HUGE difference in saying someone is an "elegant Jew" (or elegant Italian, Pole, Swede, etc.)and someone is an "elegant man FOR a Jew". I never stated Sherman was "tough FOR a Jew", that would be insulting.
You need to get over your bizarre inferiority complex and grow up.
Perhaps a verse in Adam Sandler's 2015- Chanukah song. Can include Lyle Alzado too...
As the Tuna said: "you are what your record says you are."