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Which defensive player could rise up to #9?

Sy'56 : 1/8/2015 11:10 am
Every year there are a couple guys that end up in the top 10 that most didn't see coming. Partially based on teams reaching for needs and partially because of what happened prior to the actual pick. But sometimes we just don't take enough notice in prospects. An example being Jerod Mayo in 2008. Belichick (traded up I believe) and took Mayo at #10 overall, a move nobody saw coming.

Right now the the defensive players in the draft being mentioned as potential top 10 guys are Leonard Williams and a bunch of DE/OLB tweeners (Ray, Gregory, Beasley, Fowler, Dupree). Even though we don't know the 2015 NYG defensive scheme, I don't think those guys will fit in to what they are trying to do on that side of the ball. I tend to think that first pick will be an offensive one, but there is a player I just got done doing my report that could catapult in to the disscussion.

Before you start, I am aware of the NYG history of not drafting LBs in round 1. I don't think that is by plan, however. So save that reply for another time please.

Mississippi State MLB Bernardrick McKinney might be one of the more explosive linebackers (rush OLBs excluded) in the country. Here was my summary of him in my report:

Summary: Fourth year junior entry. All American. Top tier athlete for the position that gradually improved his overall level of play throughout the 2014 season. Was also an accomplished high school quarterback and basketball player. McKinney is one of the most explosive 250 pound athletes in the nation. He is an easy mover that creates a tremendous amount of force in short areas. His physical gifts outweigh his skill set at the moment, but he is steadily improving the nuances and reading ability of the linebacker position. His upside and potential are among the best in this draft class.

************

Do I really think NYG will take him at #9? Well I think there are a handful of guys I would peg there before him, but I think there is a shot. Reese loves the athletes. Guys that have the size/length/speed. McKinney showed that he can play as fast as some safeties...at 250 pounds. Early in the year I tagged him as an athlete trying to learn football. By the end of the season my opinion changed vastly. He was making quick reads and reacting fast. I haven't seen a LB yet that closes gaps as fast as him. Perryman (Miami) is probably a better instinct guy, but doesn't have half the physical potential of McKinney. I see McKinney as a more athletic version of Donta Hightower, another LB I loved coming out. Something to think about...

Thanks Sy, great stuff. McKinney sounds intriguing.  
Victor in CT : 1/8/2015 11:14 am : link
One thing I would be against is drafting a "tweener" with such a high pick. Too many eaxmples are out there of tweener = bust. They need a sure thing. McKinney at 250 and fast as a Safety is a pure LB at least.
Speaking of LB's  
OC : 1/8/2015 11:16 am : link
I'd be happy with a Shaq pick myself.
RE: Thanks Sy, great stuff. McKinney sounds intriguing.  
Sy'56 : 1/8/2015 11:16 am : link
In comment 12082136 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
One thing I would be against is drafting a "tweener" with such a high pick. Too many eaxmples are out there of tweener = bust. They need a sure thing. McKinney at 250 and fast as a Safety is a pure LB at least.


And he's not an outside guy. He is a true MLB.
RE: RE: Thanks Sy, great stuff. McKinney sounds intriguing.  
Victor in CT : 1/8/2015 11:20 am : link
In comment 12082147 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12082136 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


One thing I would be against is drafting a "tweener" with such a high pick. Too many eaxmples are out there of tweener = bust. They need a sure thing. McKinney at 250 and fast as a Safety is a pure LB at least.



And he's not an outside guy. He is a true MLB.


That helps in that he fits regardless of the system that the new DC would bring in.
sy, I have watched him a few times this year, do you really think  
Clearwater Joe : 1/8/2015 11:22 am : link
he is a "sideline to sideline" guy? I do not see that kind of combination of instinct and speed. I see him more as OLB, much like Kenard.
With the 9th Pick in the 2015 draft....  
geelabee : 1/8/2015 11:22 am : link
The NY Giants Select Danny Shelton DT Washington...soft up the middle D has been a Giant problem for the last few years...a massive 6'4' 340 lb Vince Wilfork type DT would solve that...I could see Shelton rising since he also has pass rush ability
I just don't see us drafting a LBer that high  
Jolly_Blue_Giant : 1/8/2015 11:24 am : link
unless he is a franchise talent. Reese said it himself in our 4-3 the LB is de-emphasized and we prefer to sub in safeties and extra Dbs quite frequently in this now heavy passing league.

Patrick Willis,Kalil Mack, Kuechly, Von Miller come to mind as the type of recent talents that might be such a clear BPA that we would pull the trigger at 9.

I don't know if anyone in this draft approaches that who is also a great fit in a 4-3 .
If NYG is to break the mold  
JonC : 1/8/2015 11:24 am : link
a MIKE in that mold makes sense, but it would surprise me.
Sounds about right  
Mason : 1/8/2015 11:26 am : link
Quote:
Drafting Flowers out of the U and McKinney out of MSU
Mason : 12/24/2014 6:40 pm : link
Will go a long way to improving depth and future starters. Re-sign JPP and Ayers, tell Coughlin to say adidos to Kiwi and draft Golden out of Missouri. I wouldn't throw big money at OL in FAs. Continue to develop Moore, Wynn, Hankins and Bromley. Actually re-signing Thurmon is pretty huge IMO or else you are back to square one with CB depth. And draft Jones out of UCONN who would be a steal IMO. I don't see Bowman re-signing because he wants to start. Not sure what to do with Rolle I must admit but I would move on from Stevie Brown. I think Taylor has the ability but can't be count on. I think Berhe could be third 3rd safety. Would love to see a safety tandem of Taylor, Jones and Berhe one day. I would love to get Johnson but the Giants may feel that Darkwa could be their 3rd HB and they could be right. I know people don't like him but I would offer JJ a one year deal. If Cruz is unable to go, he could finally take his position as slot receiver.

P.S. talk to Ronnie Barnes

And get a DC that can utilize their talents.
sign me up.......if he hits like a rhino and run like a deer!  
George from PA : 1/8/2015 11:26 am : link
Thank you, sy.

Any video?

Any suggestions for Safety that could be available in 2nd?
RE: Shelton  
JonC : 1/8/2015 11:27 am : link
Last report I read listed him at 6'1.5 332, which is not-Nagata. Do like him as a prospect, but that would be awfully high for a DT for NYG. I've heard they flat out do not like taking the early risk on DTs (historically a high-bust position).
not-Ngata  
JonC : 1/8/2015 11:27 am : link
.
RE: If NYG is to break the mold  
Jolly_Blue_Giant : 1/8/2015 11:29 am : link
In comment 12082171 JonC said:
Quote:
a MIKE in that mold makes sense, but it would surprise me.


Under Reese, We've drafted lots of tweeners but not that high.

I do like the talent though.
RE: If NYG is to break the mold  
Jolly_Blue_Giant : 1/8/2015 11:30 am : link
In comment 12082171 JonC said:
Quote:
a MIKE in that mold makes sense, but it would surprise me.


Under Reese, We've drafted lots of tweeners but not that high.

I do like the talent though.
Landon Collins  
Ira : 1/8/2015 11:32 am : link
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RE: sy, I have watched him a few times this year, do you really think  
Sy'56 : 1/8/2015 11:38 am : link
In comment 12082162 Clearwater Joe said:
Quote:
he is a "sideline to sideline" guy? I do not see that kind of combination of instinct and speed. I see him more as OLB, much like Kenard.


Athletically, yes. Mentally he is slow to read and react sometimes. That is his major weakness and I talked about it in my report. He did look like a different guy comparing September to November though.
RE: Landon Collins  
jeff57 : 1/8/2015 11:40 am : link
In comment 12082191 Ira said:
Quote:
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If they draft Landon Collins, they better sign Devin McCourty because Collins has trouble covering.
Shaq  
jeff57 : 1/8/2015 11:41 am : link
.
Better  
OC : 1/8/2015 11:41 am : link
To go with Holliman if there in 2.
you have me convinced  
djm : 1/8/2015 11:44 am : link
...where do I sign up...
D risers  
Colin@gbn : 1/8/2015 11:45 am : link
Great call Dave: I am working on a piece at the GBN looking at guys that could possibly make big moves up into the top 10 and McKinney is definitely one of the 5-6 guys on the list. He's 6-4, 245 and has the freakish athletic ability to blow up the combine. He's also a pretty versatile guy who Miss State lined up all over; while he was a nominal MLB they used him a lot also at OLB and as a down DE in some passing situations. If you take him in the top ten though I think you take him as a WLB who you want to use mostly to get into the backfield. Immagine a defense with a rangy kid like McKinney at WLB and Kennard on the strongside (just don't then ask them to line up 3-4 yards off the LOS and read and run to the ball). The other guy I keep looking at as possible riser on D is Nate Orchard. He's another of those almost tweener types but he also reminds me a ton of Osi at RDE. Orchard needs to run better than he's projected to right now but there's a certain something there.(Also remember that he blew up BBI fave Peat when Utah played Stanford). The frustrating thing from a Giants perspective is that when you look for potential risers more are on offense than defense.
Does look like a better offensive than defensive draft  
jeff57 : 1/8/2015 11:47 am : link
Deepest group of quality RBs in a while.
JBG  
JonC : 1/8/2015 11:48 am : link
Not in the first two rounds, only Sintim, and they picked him because some felt he would be able to play reps at DE as well as in space.

As it turns out, he would've been better suited at DE or Elephant.
RE: D risers  
Sy'56 : 1/8/2015 12:12 pm : link
In comment 12082219 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Great call Dave: I am working on a piece at the GBN looking at guys that could possibly make big moves up into the top 10 and McKinney is definitely one of the 5-6 guys on the list. He's 6-4, 245 and has the freakish athletic ability to blow up the combine. He's also a pretty versatile guy who Miss State lined up all over; while he was a nominal MLB they used him a lot also at OLB and as a down DE in some passing situations. If you take him in the top ten though I think you take him as a WLB who you want to use mostly to get into the backfield. Immagine a defense with a rangy kid like McKinney at WLB and Kennard on the strongside (just don't then ask them to line up 3-4 yards off the LOS and read and run to the ball). The other guy I keep looking at as possible riser on D is Nate Orchard. He's another of those almost tweener types but he also reminds me a ton of Osi at RDE. Orchard needs to run better than he's projected to right now but there's a certain something there.(Also remember that he blew up BBI fave Peat when Utah played Stanford). The frustrating thing from a Giants perspective is that when you look for potential risers more are on offense than defense.


Another question...and I am afraid I know the answer....is

Will NYG ever think outside the box? Yiu can still run the 4-3 base scheme. but why not go after a Shane Ray and find a role for him? Get McKinney in here and create a new position for a guy that can do so much. I've always felt that limiting yourself with "Scheme-only" fits really puts the draft deciscion makes in a tough spot. I love what NE, ARI, HOU, BAL do. They find the best blend of football player and athlete...and find a way to implement them in to the defense. NYG doesn't do that.
Is it me, or is this draft lacking  
barens : 1/8/2015 12:22 pm : link
with quality edge rushers? I know there are a lot of names you have mentioned, but besides Leonard Williams,(who can play inside or out), I'm not terribly confident in the DE prospects as top 10 talents.

I think it looks like a very strong DT class, but those other names aren't terribly exciting.

Though one DE/OLB I'm intrieged by, but seems to have a fair amount of baggage which may keep him out of the first round all together, is Noah Spence. Very young and immature, but even in his only 2 years of college ball, his quickness jumps out at you.
Amen to that  
Colin@gbn : 1/8/2015 12:22 pm : link
sigh ... you are preaching to the choir here. If there has been a black hole with the Giants in the TC era - and nobodies giving back the two SBs - its that 'we do what we do because that's what we do' and we ain't a changing. And if you don't fit what we do you ain't playing. I go back to the Sintim pick for example. At the time I was asked what I thought of it and I said that if he was drafted to be a pass-rush specialist (remember he lead all NCAA LBs in sacks as a senior) then it was a devilishly clever pick by a team that if it believed in anything it was geting after the QB; on the other hand, if the plan was to try and turn Sintim, who was never very agile, into a SSLB it made little sense at all. What's hard to figure in a lot of the picks the Giants have made since say 2010 is that Coughlin is very involved in the evaluation process and there seems to be some kind of disconnect.
Colin,  
Big Blue '56 : 1/8/2015 12:26 pm : link
when Sintim was drafted, I clearly recall Kirwan liking the pivk and projecting him as our Mike, down the road..Thoughts on that?
pick  
Big Blue '56 : 1/8/2015 12:26 pm : link
.
I still think Fowler is a candidate  
armstead98 : 1/8/2015 12:31 pm : link
Everyone says he's not a fit for a 4-3 but I'm not so sure about that. He's not a small dude at 6'3 260. Osi was 6-3 255 for comparison sake.

So yes, he's not a Clowney, JPP, Ansah type but he could still be a fit.
He was one of those guys I was hoping to be in the mix  
Andy in Halifax : 1/8/2015 12:33 pm : link
in 2 (also, Perryman). Looks like that was wishful thinking.
I like Shelton a lot, but would only take him after trading down.  
yatqb : 1/8/2015 12:36 pm : link
.
BB56  
JonC : 1/8/2015 12:36 pm : link
Kirwan was lost. Sintim couldn't handle strongside, he didn't have the lateral ability or speed, he almost certainly couldn't play a sideline to sideline post like MIKE.

Sintim was a hand in the dirt, downhill off the edge pass rusher.

Isn't kind of tough to make a definitive statement  
barens : 1/8/2015 12:47 pm : link
regarding Sintim, considering injuries are really what derailed his career? I had questions about the pick just like most of us, but I think it's unclear to say he couldn't have had success.
100% definitive? Of course not  
JonC : 1/8/2015 12:51 pm : link
but I recognize when he was confident and instinctive, and when he was frozen solid. Given the speed of the NFL game, and how difficult it is for most players to change positions, the chances Sintim would work out as an in-space LB were small.
Imo  
JonC : 1/8/2015 12:57 pm : link
of course.
Forget where,but this is not the 1st time I've seen McKinney suggested  
BlueLou : 1/8/2015 1:05 pm : link
to the Gmen at 9. Atletic freak Mike on the rise? Yeah why not if the Giants' scouts, JR, TC and our new DC love the guy why the fook not?

An OBJ talent for the D playing Mike could be a game changer, for sure!
Colin  
JonC : 1/8/2015 1:11 pm : link
Feel free to answer BB's question, it was not my intent to pre-empt.

barens, I agree the crop looks lean on NYG edge rushers. The kid from Kentucky is interesting and fits the paradigm, but he'll need to test well. It appears Fowler is closer to 6'2 250 from what I've read, and listed numbers don't tell the whole story, it's a per player basis. He looks small on film versus Bama, for example.
Sounds like an interesting  
AnishPatel : 1/8/2015 1:24 pm : link
prospect. I will have to keep an eye and ear out for more on him. I still would like an offensive player if possible and hope that player is BPA.
I Saw One Mock that  
BBurns : 1/8/2015 2:28 pm : link
Had us Taking him at 9 However this Draft is
pretty rich Defensively . I wouldnt mind
Moving up from the 2nd to score a player like
him .
Owamagbe Odighizuwa  
rasbutant : 1/8/2015 2:34 pm : link
6'-3" 270

If it wasn't for injury concerns were would he be ranked?


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RE: Owamagbe Odighizuwa  
Sy'56 : 1/8/2015 3:21 pm : link
In comment 12082681 rasbutant said:
Quote:
6'-3" 270

If it wasn't for injury concerns were would he be ranked?
Link - ( New Window )


LOVE this guy. One of my favorite DEs in the draft. I think he can be a top 45 guy. Others say he is a day 3 guy.
Perryman, Sy'  
BigBlueCane : 1/8/2015 3:21 pm : link
played in a god awful defense that had its linemen in a frog stance and was dropping players 7-8 yards back regardless of down and distance.

It was completely passive and alien to Perryman's instincts and abilities. I repeat this as a warning. Do not underestimate what a change of scheme and philosophy will mean for him.
His name definitely fits in the Giants d-line  
jeff57 : 1/8/2015 3:22 pm : link
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RE: RE: Owamagbe Odighizuwa  
AcidTest : 1/8/2015 3:45 pm : link
In comment 12082833 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12082681 rasbutant said:


Quote:


6'-3" 270

If it wasn't for injury concerns were would he be ranked?
Link - ( New Window )



LOVE this guy. One of my favorite DEs in the draft. I think he can be a top 45 guy. Others say he is a day 3 guy.


Agreed. Excellent player. Now if I could only pronounce his name.
RE: Perryman, Sy'  
Sy'56 : 1/8/2015 4:38 pm : link
In comment 12082834 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
played in a god awful defense that had its linemen in a frog stance and was dropping players 7-8 yards back regardless of down and distance.

It was completely passive and alien to Perryman's instincts and abilities. I repeat this as a warning. Do not underestimate what a change of scheme and philosophy will mean for him.


I love Perryman. I think he is a top 20 talent.
I'm with Mason  
lugnut : 1/9/2015 12:52 pm : link
Drafting McKinney, Flowers, and Golden would be outstanding.
The Patriots traded down for Jerod Mayo, not up  
Milton : 1/9/2015 1:00 pm : link
I believe they had the 7th pick in the draft that year (from their trade with the Raiders for Richard Seymour).

The funniest part about it was that a day or two before the draft it was reported that Belichick's barber had said that Belichick told him they were going to take Mayo. Hard to imagine that Belichick would tell his barber who he was going to draft, but it turned out to be true.
not offense  
area junc : 1/9/2015 1:08 pm : link
but T.J.Clemmings (OT, Pitt) is a big, physical, athletic guy who isnt being talked about. long arms, big hands, good body, +run blocker. good knee bend in pass pro. converted defensive player who is raw, (so placed at right tackle in college) but believed to have the athleticism to play LT

the way this kid gets out the blocks and hits people at the 2nd level is fun to watch. his technique is way ahead of where it should be for a 2nd year T.
RE: RE: Owamagbe Odighizuwa  
jeff57 : 1/9/2015 1:14 pm : link
In comment 12082833 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12082681 rasbutant said:


Quote:


6'-3" 270

If it wasn't for injury concerns were would he be ranked?
Link - ( New Window )



LOVE this guy. One of my favorite DEs in the draft. I think he can be a top 45 guy. Others say he is a day 3 guy.


Watched some tape of him last night and was really impressed by his quickness off the ball. Looks definitely worth taking at 41.
Sy- Dupree is listed at 270lbs as well  
alligatorpie : 1/9/2015 3:08 pm : link
that is not the little tweener we hate to draft.

there are about 8? 10? of those above 265lbs defensive ends listed this year in cbs top 25 DE's .....edwards, armstead, a pile of them.
buckner  
alligatorpie : 1/9/2015 3:26 pm : link
some of the other guys above may have crap tape though...but there are sleepers as well
I am not claiming any of these lower ones as a #9  
alligatorpie : 1/9/2015 3:27 pm : link
though
but, lower down  
alligatorpie : 1/9/2015 3:49 pm : link
buckner...smith....chikillo...defensive ends in varied lower rounds

another approach  
alligatorpie : 1/9/2015 3:58 pm : link
would be if you find value in a classic larger DT sitting there in some round, someone who is good enough, by providing such push and anchor that his presence on the line helps free up the other DT and the ends to disrupt...that helps everyone

such as if shelton drops, or if the team thinks he is great value at any point bpa
I could see either Danny Shelton  
bob in tx : 1/9/2015 4:13 pm : link
or Malcolm Brown really impressing a team hoping to find a DT.
we could use either, it all depends on round  
alligatorpie : 1/10/2015 8:26 am : link
in any case, this time of year, the SINKERS are much more interesting than the late risers. some player gets a big rep due to being at a famous school and in a big bowl game, and the player we need drops to accommodate.

thanks.

even a low late rounder like chikillo, while he has moments where he gets locked up, which is not good, there is some quicks to his game...would a guy like that, who appears to have room on his body to get stronger, be more worth it in the long run, as opposed to a tweener that is already maxed out, at the top of his game, with roids?

or, conversly, buckner, who looks to have some power and toughness, or smith.

none of these guys are JJ watt, but you find one who can play along the line and make plays.

but your right, if the value is there in the high rounds, a DT might make more sense.
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