The Detriot call/non call. Detriot had an opportunity to still make plays. Our PI happened on the last play of the game. We clearly would have won had we been given the opportunity to kick the FG from the spot of the foul.
So much sports radio and TV coverage over this most recent incident. I don't recall a quarter of the coverage for our call? All I remember is the NFL publicly admitting the mistake with little to no coverage. Then there is the infamous "bummer" line, Marriocci said when a reporter notified him that the officials made a mistake and there should have been a PI call.
Wasn't Seubert eligible? Why would PI count if he was ineligible?
There were over seven minutes to go in the Lions-Dallas game. Way too much time left...
Should have been another kick from the same spot
Correct. Offsetting penalties and another attempt at a 40 yarder...
Detroit, on the other hand, had their game under control and didn't surrender the lead until the blown call swung all the momentum.
Giants bias aside, I think Detroit got screwed worse.
Detroit, on the other hand, had their game under control and didn't surrender the lead until the blown call swung all the momentum.
Giants bias aside, I think Detroit got screwed worse.
The Giants, despite the 9er rally, regained their composure and got in position to kick a 40 yarder to win on the road. If the refs are not overdosing on stupid pills, the Jints got a deserved second shot and likely bury it to win...
also, PI on a botched FG attempt is a very unusual thing. i have never seen another instance that i can recall. So, it is a bit more understandable that the officials missed it. However, if the roles had been reversed, and the Giants had interfered, i guaraNTEE 100% THE 49ERS WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THE CALL
Then the village idiot running onto the field and the refs ignoring that ....
So MANY things wrong with the play, the white-washing the whole thing by claiming the Detroit player grabbed a helmet. If so, why wasn't HE callled for offensive interference ?
Oh no, just pick up the flag and pretent nothing happened. That is the worse I've seen in 56 years of watching football at all levels.
Pretty much. And Sunday was a prime example of just how corrupt it is
So consider these two things:
Botched call - league admits Dallas should have been penalized. Result of the play? Fourth down.
Botched call - league admits offsetting penalties should have been called. Result of the play - Giants were eliminated.
If you want to start bringing up the other bad calls go back and rewatch (if you have the stomach for it) the Giants games and see how many bad calls there were against the Giants. If you can't handle watching it again, read Eric's review on this site. He pretty much lays it all out there.
Can't find it
Here's his review.
Mook, no we did not. he had checked in as an eligible reciever for that play. it was indeed PI on San Fran at the 1
I mean I was furious at the time. But even then I couldn't say with conviction that we would have beaten TB like others have said. And I don't think we cost ourselves a Lombardi with that game.
I was more furious with the WC loss to Minnesota at home even though we probably would have lost in Green Bay just because I remember looking forward to the chance to play such a big game.
By the way - reading it reminds me that I used to really like Olney's coverage at the times.
Here's his review.
This was always the dumbest criticism, as if Fassel throwing a tantrum would have made a damned bit of difference. Fassel was more to blame than the refs? What?
I don't know if he needed to throw a tantrum. What he needed to do was go and get an explanation - a full explanation - from the refs. He needed to ask why there were three flags thrown at his eligible receiver at the goal line who was clearly tackled with the ball coming to him and the call was ineligible receiver.
He could have done that calmly. No tantrum was necessary, but one would have been understandable.
What he did to me was unforgivable. Having clearly witnessed a penalty committed against his team and hearing the call go against the Giants, he simply hung his head and walked off the field.
You may think my criticism is dumb and I can accept that. I think simply accepting the call that was so obviously wrong that every Giants fan I know was questioning it long into the night on that day without even an explanation as to why that wasn't pass interference was dumb.
It was so obviously pass interference that even the league had to question it and apologize for it. But not gentleman Jim. He was done for the day and ready for the shower.
The reason they picked up the flag was because the head official thought that Seubert was the illegal man downfield, therefor nullifying the pass interference. Had the officials conferred, he would've realized it was Tam Hopkins who was the illegal man downfield and thus it would've been offsetting penalties and the Giants would've had another shot at the field goal from the previous spot.
In the Dallas game, the officials conferred. They got it wrong, but they got it wrong based on a misjudgment. And misjudgments by officials are a painful, but normal reality of the game. In the case of the Giants game, it was an error of procedure. The officials didn't follow proper procedure.
Fassel's defense was that the officials were already running off the field and the fans were already pouring onto it, before he could reach them. I find that unacceptable. As I said the other day when this came up, I would've gone ballistic. I would've been screaming at the top of my lungs, "The game is not over! The game is not over!" I would've made such a spectacle that the cameras would've all been drawn to me and would've made sure I was heard.
And that's what made it egregious enough for the NFL to apologize.
By the way - reading it reminds me that I used to really like Olney's coverage at the times.
If i remember it correctly the league apology was that it should have been PI because our O-lineman checked in. That was what they apologized for
You may think my criticism is dumb and I can accept that. I think simply accepting the call that was so obviously wrong that every Giants fan I know was questioning it long into the night on that day without even an explanation as to why that wasn't pass interference was dumb.
It was so obviously pass interference that even the league had to question it and apologize for it. But not gentleman Jim. He was done for the day and ready for the shower.
That was my take also. he just stood there dumbfounded then walked off the field. Greg is probably correct in that throwing a fit would most likely not done a thing, but the way he just accepted it was what bothered me
Why not? Why couldn't Bryant have made a 40 yarder? Amazingly, he's still in the league.
I actually believe the thing about the Dallas call was that there was likely an actual desire to give Dallas a chance by at least one of the officials. In the Giants game, it was just incompetence by the officiating crew, a miscommunication as was mentioned above, which is why I always was upset with Coach Fassel for not demanding an explanation. I'll always maintain that it was his job to force the discussion so there was proper communication and if he had done that, I believe there would have been a correction and the call would have been corrected.
I don't know how you can state that Bryant couldn't have made that field goal. Bryant was very capable of making one from that distance.
Anyway, if they had made the correct call, the Giants had lined up again, and had missed it again, then this conversation wouldn't have happened. I wouldn't ever have blamed Fassel for the missed kicks. I would have accepted the defeat as a major Giants meltdown, and I would have accepted that the niners deserved to win.
As it is now, I can't really accept any of that because it is the only game, to my knowledge, where a team was eliminated from the playoffs where the league has officially apologized and stated that they should not have been eliminated.
The league has NOT made that statement in the Dallas game, and that's why the calls there are in a whole other category.
Just sayin'
And the reason he didn't try was because he didn't know they made an error. He didn't mention it in the postgame opportunities he had. The Giants were so focused on their late miscues that they didn't give it a second thought. I always felt that Seubert should have also been screaming that he had reported as an eligible receiver and he didn't. The players were interviewed after the league issued its apology and they reacted with surprise, not a single one of them acting as though they knew there had been a mistake.
I believe with the right reaction from a head coach who hadn't accepted defeat the officials would have been forced to clear the field and allow a rekick. I know that I could be wrong about that but I cannot accept that not even trying because you didn't even know that the call was erroneous is okay for the reasons so many state here (he wouldn't have made it anyway, Fassel didn't get a chance, the Giants shouldn't have been in that position to begin with, etc.)
That's why I say, had there been even one second left on the clock, the whole thing would've been cleared up without debate. It was the fact that the official announced "game over" at the same time that he announced that there was no pass interference that made Fassel's job a near-impossible one.
If the NFL admitted the officials erred in the Giants game and it was a correctable error in that it was the last play of the game, why weren't the teams allowed to come back out and replay the down?
this happen in 2003
before facebook ,twitter , youtube
and a million Sport news outlets
heck this was before HDTV!
all these things magnify any ref errors
by a million times
the big difference is now there is
instant replay at the end of the game
if this play happened to today they would have been a booth review and Fassell could have pleaded his case and of course the correct call would have happen and the Giants would have kicked a FG from the 1 yard line .. and won the game.
it does not matter who the game progressed or the lead we blew
Giants would have made it to the next round against a very weak Bucs team.
you could still have the same fuckup today. But the part about Twitter, Facebook, etc. applies.
As pointed out on this thread, the Giants would not have kicked from the 1 yard line. Rich Seubert was an eligible receiver, but Tam Hopkins was also downfield and was not eligible.
There were two penalties on the play - pass interference by the 49ers and an illegal man downfield by the Giants. This would have resulted in the down being replayed.
Would Bryant have made the 40-yarder? Possibly, but not a lock. The bigger question would be whether Trey Junkin would have been able to be better with the snap with all the pressure - he had also had a bad snap earlier in the game that caused Bryant to miss a 42-yarder.
[quote]Giants would have made it to the next round against a very weak Bucs team.
That "very weak" Bucs team won the Super Bowl by a wide margin and had a defense that probably would have eaten Kerry Collins alive.
I call BS on this and although I am very busy today I will definitely find some time to prove it.
Ours was... just wow.
If they were going to replay that last down, it would have been within the first 5 mins of them signaling it over. There is no way he got his team out off the field and out of the locker room that fast. It might have been 15 mins later that the word got to Fassel that we got screwed, and he then tried to get it replayed, but no way would that have happened after that much time has gone bye. I think that was what bugged me so much, it seemed he just stood there and accepted the outcome instead of at least trying to argue his case. Once again it most likely would not have done much good other.
The Giants offense went into sleep mode and did not open up unil that final drive. The 49ers should have never had the chance to win. Williams penalty in the endzone, the spent DL and the offense going to sleep all contributed to that disaster.
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previously discussed some inside knowledge of what happened after the game. To hear that person tell it, Fassel did his all to get the teams back on the field so they could retry the field goal but Marriuci rushed the 49ers out of the locker room so they wouldn't have to.
I call BS on this and although I am very busy today I will definitely find some time to prove it.
Okay - [url=http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=2002%20niners%20giants&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nfl.com%2Fvideos%2Fnfl-network-top-ten%2F0ap2000000113878%2FTop-Ten-Controversial-Calls-Giants-vs-49ers&ei=HgmwVKOzLdbmoAT9qoIw&usg=AFQjCNEGGk4qhf2oIVyVXRZte6e9YTeO3A&sig2=yoioYJDMWtdOyLCxh8JVCw]watch this video[/url] if you believe the narrative you were fed. In it you will see, among other things...
1. Giants players celebrating the initial flag
2. The refs huddling together to discuss the play
2. Coach Fassel and Sean Payton's reaction to the announced call.
3. No fans storming the field (as was described earlier) but celebrating in the stands.
4. 9ers players and coaches celebrating the game on the field.
Sure doesn't fit any of the narrative given on this thread (fans running on the field, Mariucci hustling his team into the showers, Fassel trying to get the 9ers back on the field).
I don't know how much clearer we can get because the NFL has pulled this game every time it's been posted, and NFL Game Rewind only goes back through the 2009 season.
I will see what I can find from Fassel's press conference. If the narrative here were true most certainly he would have made mention of the missed penalty at the end of the game.
End of game footage... - ( New Window )
if Giants / San Fran play happened then there would have definitely been a Booth Review and the call would have been reversed
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And even if it had, there's no way Bryant's making that FG. Trey Junkin would've had a better chance of making that kick.
Why not? Why couldn't Bryant have made a 40 yarder? Amazingly, he's still in the league.
Because, at that moment, he was a complete headcase. He had been shanking kicks all game. Junkin wasn't reliable as a snapper. The hold wasn't consistent. The team was in a death spiral. Oh, and by the way, everything hangs on whether you make this kick or not.
I'm glad he turned it around and has had a solid career, but in that moment, I doubt Bryant could've successfully thrown a football 40 yards, much less made a FG of that distance.
giantfanboy : 1:53 pm : link : reply
in 2002 NFL Booth Review was not in place
if Giants / San Fran play happened then there would have definitely been a Booth Review and the call would have been reversed
A booth review has NEVER, including today, been able to review pass interference or illegal man downfield. It couldn't be reviewed then and can't be reviewed now.
I'm guessing they are going to budge on it after the fiasco in Dallas, but I could be wrong. Belichick was pushing last year for making all plays reviewable, so it's not like it hasn't been a point of debate already. There was a time when an inadvertent whistle meant the play was over no matter how obvious it was that the defense had recovered a fumble and that has since been changed. I think that same logic can be applied to all plays, including pass interference.
I know that what you recalled was Fassel claiming that "fans were pouring onto the field". Did you see any footage in those clips that suggested that "fans were pouring onto the field"?
I don't doubt that Fassel may have said that - your memory is likely better than mine, and certainly I could have missed it as well. I do doubt that those were the actual conditions.
You are correct that the video is far from comprehensive, but it should be enough to draw a few conclusions, and anyway, it appears to be all the video available online of the post-game reactions by fans, refs, and both teams.
Everything I saw in it suggested the opposite of what Fassel claimed. There seemed to be players staying on the field, the SF coach on the field, no Giants anywhere in sight, and all the fans in the stand going nowhere.
About your memories of what you saw - do you remember Fassel trying to get the team to stay on the field? Was he in any way trying to get the attention of the refs? Do you remember Mariucci rushing his team off the field? I don't remember it that way at all. I remember Fassel walking calmly toward the locker room, along with the rest of the Giants.
The video supports that memory, as it shows both Payton and Fassel's reaction to the announcement which is exactly how I remembered it to be.
I feel strongly that he made no attempts to do this because I sat there staring in disbelief at what had transpired. I didn't know until much later that Seubert was actually an eligible receiver on the play. I was accepting of the penalty as correct and was just watching everything unfold. If I'd seen anything on that broadcast that suggested that Fassel was sending the Giants back on the field, or that he was going after the refs, I would have gone ballistic.
There was absolutely at that point nothing to give me hope.
The only way I can accept the claim is if Fassel was referring to events that happened AFTER the Giants, the refs, and the 49ers had already retired to their respective lockers.
What he should have done is run up to the refs and demand they explain the decision. They would have told him that Seubert couldn't have been fouled because he was illegally downfield. He could have told them that Seubert had declared eligible on the play, and they could have confirmed that on the spot. This could have resulted in the refs changing the call and announcing another play.
It didn't. It wasn't Fassel's fault alone - heck, in my opinion he has less to be blamed for than any of Junkin, Allen and Hopkins on the play - but he does, in my opinion, deserve the criticism for simply accepting a terrible call without questioning it. And that was a huge mistake.
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It's on them that they were even in a position to let a bad call beat them.
Detroit, on the other hand, had their game under control and didn't surrender the lead until the blown call swung all the momentum.
Giants bias aside, I think Detroit got screwed worse.
The Giants, despite the 9er rally, regained their composure and got in position to kick a 40 yarder to win on the road. If the refs are not overdosing on stupid pills, the Jints got a deserved second shot and likely bury it to win...
I wouldn't have trusted Trey Junkin to make a decent long snap, Maynard to get the snap down or Bryant to hit the FG on a re-attempt, anyway. Our special teams that year were so colossally pathetic that its shocking. Every FG that year was an adventure, even short ones, partially because Bryant was so bad. He's a much better kicker now, but when I see him, it's hard to believe he lasted after being so bad that season. We really should have stuck with Morten.
To this day, I still can't believe a long snapper can choke like that. I mean, he was payed to do one thing - snap the ball on punts and field goals. Not exactly difficult, but he was absolutely pathetic, and I don't think he ever played another game again because he was so emotionally scarred from his performance.
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In comment 12083708 bceagle05 said:
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It's on them that they were even in a position to let a bad call beat them.
Detroit, on the other hand, had their game under control and didn't surrender the lead until the blown call swung all the momentum.
Giants bias aside, I think Detroit got screwed worse.
The Giants, despite the 9er rally, regained their composure and got in position to kick a 40 yarder to win on the road. If the refs are not overdosing on stupid pills, the Jints got a deserved second shot and likely bury it to win...
I wouldn't have trusted Trey Junkin to make a decent long snap, Maynard to get the snap down or Bryant to hit the FG on a re-attempt, anyway. Our special teams that year were so colossally pathetic that its shocking. Every FG that year was an adventure, even short ones, partially because Bryant was so bad. He's a much better kicker now, but when I see him, it's hard to believe he lasted after being so bad that season. We really should have stuck with Morten.
To this day, I still can't believe a long snapper can choke like that. I mean, he was payed to do one thing - snap the ball on punts and field goals. Not exactly difficult, but he was absolutely pathetic, and I don't think he ever played another game again because he was so emotionally scarred from his performance.
Forgot it was Matt Allen, not Brad Maynard.