to TC's situation, but this game isn't going to help that.
Giants might legit be the only team in the NFL that would give even a thought to him as a DC at this point, lack of stability or not. Which isn't exactly consoling to me as a fan.
I said that earlier. If his name was Steve Johnson nobody would want him. Was terrible as a HC. Had one of the worst defenses in NFL history with the Saints. The Ravens were one of the 7 worst teams in pass D this year. They just gave up 408 yards passing. Yes I know it was to a good Pats team and a HOF QB, but everybody knew they weren't running the ball and they still got destroyed.
is it's not his scheme, he coaches the secondary in fundamentals, assignments, etc. within the scheme. You have then ask how well these guys were coached to execute the scheme and what they were asked to do?!
I said that earlier. If his name was Steve Johnson nobody would want him. Was terrible as a HC. Had one of the worst defenses in NFL history with the Saints. The Ravens were one of the 7 worst teams in pass D this year. They just gave up 408 yards passing. Yes I know it was to a good Pats team and a HOF QB, but everybody knew they weren't running the ball and they still got destroyed.
Why wouldn't a giants fan want Spags back ? He might've sucked with other teams, but he was damn good here
Was the inconsistency of his defenses (up & down). I like and appreciate what Spags has done for the NYG, but to be fair Spags will have to explain why his units and defenses have struggled and been inconsistent. They haven't been up and down of late- just down. Truth be told if tonight's performance was the Giants secondary v NE and not the Ravens people here would be calling for heads to roll.
I'm not even really talking about today. When we found out that we were interviewing Raheem everybody brought up that the Skins secondary was torched yet nobody is saying the same thing about Spags. I'm sure the senior defensive assistant/secondary coach has a little more input then Raheem does in Washington.
He was the DC with the Saints and gave up the most yards in NFL history.
He was very good here. I loved him when he was here. I want the best possible DC for the Giants. If you look at everything he's done since he left here he does not seem like the best DC available. Like I said if his last name wasn't Spagnoulo nobody would want him. Everybody is basing this off of something he did over 6 years ago. That's a very long time ago.
secondary coach is not the draw. It is his skill as a take charge DC who can game plan and adjust. Use his Teams talent and get them to play hard like he did the last time here. The only DC we have had who did that in Coughlin's tenure.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
The defense was pretty 'meh' at best here for the past 2-3 seasons. It's easy to see why TC and crew might be interested in bringing Spags back, especially when you take into consideration the available options out there.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
So talent isn't a factor in the league? You're meant to be able to coach up any schlub? The Ravens had two players signed in November from other teams practice squads as their RCB and Slot CB respectively. You can't just say shit secondary, shit coaching, talent has to play a part. They were down to fumes from a secondary which was essentially Webb and Smith and not much else to begin with.
The injuries to our CB's didn't cause us to be unable to defend the run or completely fail to defend any read option QB. If it was just pass coverage breakdowns (and we had plenty of that) then Fewell would have an excuse, but his entire defense was broken.
It's just laughable how he got no breaks for the crap talent he was handed (both because of injury and just poor players in dome spots in general), but the same folks who largely wanted his head have a thousand excuses for Spags failing at every job he's had since he left here.
I know this job isn't all that appealing, but I still want better than some fan service retread with an extremely rough recent track record.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
The defense was pretty 'meh' at best here for the past 2-3 seasons. It's easy to see why TC and crew might be interested in bringing Spags back, especially when you take into consideration the available options out there.
Fewell struggled due to lack of quality/depth and injuries. Spags has struggled for similar reasons. The common denominator is that unless the Giants significantly upgrade their defensive talent, the defense will struggle under any DC.
anticipate a rerun of what he did in NO. He had defensive talent here the first time. Who ever takes this job will have to make lemonade out of lemons.
Mike Harris and Chykie Brown were getting snaps in our secondary.
Only one of them was a starter and that was Jimmy Smith.
Jimmy Smith - Starter
Aaron Ross - Terrible
Danny Gorrer - 8 teams in 5 years
Asa Jackson - 5th round pick
Terrace Brooks and Tramain Jacobs - Both are rookies
That doesn't explain an absolutely terrible job in St. Louis and New Orleans.
He had any talent to work with at all in New Orleans- only had one year and had no head coach on the team. His second year with Rams they actually started turning it around. But by year three he lost his qb for the season. He's a good DC. Folks say he had Strahan but so did Tim Lewis-how'd that work out?
I feel like the only time under Couglin that we were an aggressive defense that wasn't scared to go after the QB was when Spags was here. All the other DCs were "bend dont break". No stats to back that up, but just going by what I see.
LCB Webb(2009 3rd round pick); Cason (a former 1st round pick who has bounced around the league after leaving San Diego, and who was picked up off his couch in early
December.
RCB Melvin (UDFA picked up from the Dolphins practice squad in November after being at Tampa Bay where for the short period he was on the active roster he was a gameday scratch); Levine (UDFA); Greenwood (5th round pick by the Lions in 2012, bounced around the Lions, Cowboys and Vikings practice squads, signed in December.)
RE: Mike Harris and Chykie Brown were getting snaps in our secondary.
It would blow people's minds if they realized Brown was off the Raven scrap heap.
Someone so terrible he was useless to this totally depleted secondary that poor Spags was saddled with ended up getting fairly significant snaps for Fewell/Giunta's defense... But somehow they get no excuses.
No it wasn't the best roster in the world, but they were the worst D in NFL history. Sedrick Ellis, Junior Galette, Akiem Hicks, Will Smith, Cameron Jordan, Curtis Lofton, Jonathan Vilma, David Hawthorne, Roman Harper, Jabari Greer, Malcolm Jenkins.
Spagnuolo seems to keep getting a pass for the injuries and talent deficiencies in his secondary and yet, Fewell was starting almost all backups including a guy that the Ravens didn't even deem useful enough to keep around.
The same Ladarius Webb who just got a 5 year 50 million dollar contract, Will Hill (31st ranked pass D until he came back. Ended up 24th) and 1st round pick Matt Elam.
RE: RE: Mike Harris and Chykie Brown were getting snaps in our secondary.
The Ravens cut Chykie Brown he was their slot CB for the first half of their season.
So Fewell had to line up Spags' rejects!
The question for Spags will be- you did a great job with Strahan, Osi, Coefield,'Robbins, Tuck, Kiwi, et al. You've struggled mightily with talent depleted units- what will you do to resuscitate the Giants, talent, depleted defense?
Only one of them was a starter and that was Jimmy Smith.
Jimmy Smith - Starter
Aaron Ross - Terrible
Danny Gorrer - 8 teams in 5 years
Asa Jackson - 5th round pick
Terrace Brooks and Tramain Jacobs - Both are rookies
That doesn't explain an absolutely terrible job in St. Louis and New Orleans.
Asa Jackson was their starting slot CB, he won the job in camp over Chykie Brown.
Ultimately a position coach can only work with what he is given. The Ravens started with a weak group of cornerbacks and progressively got worse due to injuries.
I'm not actually a big proponent of "Spags" for our DC, I think you should never go back and frankly while I can see the argument for giving him a bit of a pass for the situation at the Saints, I'm not sure I ultimately buy it, but I do think criticising him for the Ravens secondary is a very weak argument given it was a weak group at the start of the season which got decimated by injuries.
Spags also wound up with the best guy Fewell had in his secondary..
really want him, as many have pointed out his defense in New Orleans was historically bad and since he left the Giants has been pretty bad the only appeal is nostalgia. If ur going nostalgia might as well give Pepper a chance.
Spagnuolo seems to keep getting a pass for the injuries and talent deficiencies in his secondary and yet, Fewell was starting almost all backups including a guy that the Ravens didn't even deem useful enough to keep around.
Couldn't agree more. Both Fewell and Spags have won SBs as DCs. Why anybody thinks Spags has this huge gap over Fewell is laughable...
Spagnuolo seems to keep getting a pass for the injuries and talent deficiencies in his secondary and yet, Fewell was starting almost all backups including a guy that the Ravens didn't even deem useful enough to keep around.
The secondary was only part of Fewells issue though. The failure to stop the run, the failure to defend against read-option QB's is nothing to do with the injuries at CB.
Spagnuolo seems to keep getting a pass for the injuries and talent deficiencies in his secondary and yet, Fewell was starting almost all backups including a guy that the Ravens didn't even deem useful enough to keep around.
The secondary was only part of Fewells issue though. The failure to stop the run, the failure to defend against read-option QB's is nothing to do with the injuries at CB.
We had no problem stopping the run last year. We were 6th in the NFL in YPA against and shut down a lot of excellent RB's. When you lose an excellent run stopping MIKE and DT depth, you're going to struggle.
Spags has been a total failure since leaving the Giants
Spags has done well when the talent was there but has struggled on talent deficient units. Right now, the Giants defense is talent depleted. Given Spags' struggles with talent depleted units, why should he be considered the best candidate for the current Giantd team?
That's exactly what I'm saying. Strictly nostalgia at this point. His resume since leaving does not make him a good DC candidate. We don't even know if we will interview him.
The beat guys are saying it, but they also were all but guaranteeing the OC job was Mike Sullivans last year.
RE: Spags has been a total failure since leaving the Giants
secondary coach is not the draw. It is his skill as a take charge DC who can game plan and adjust. Use his Teams talent and get them to play hard like he did the last time here. The only DC we have had who did that in Coughlin's tenure.
Unless you think LeBeau still has it at 77 AND he can coach the 4-3 well. It's Spags by a long shot amongst the available coaches.
They were the 11th best pass D in the NFL last season. Yes they got hurt, but they also added Will Hill.
They were relatively healthy in 2013, and had Graham who's just came off a fantastic season for Buffalo (PFF rating of +9.7). This year they had Webb and Smith to start with Brown/Jackson as the slot. Webb fought back injuries all season (started only 13 games out including the playoffs) and frankly Webb isn't very good.
The Fewell not getting a pass is really because he was here a lot longer and his defenses have given up 40 or more points more than any DC in team history. Spags at least took an awful performing defense-which it was under Lewis - and they were pretty stout. If Fewell ever showed for a season that his defensive schemes were dominant (not counting backup qbs) then he'd get a pass. Five years is a long time in this league.
RE: RE: Spags has been a total failure since leaving the Giants
Spags got a 2nd chance after St Louis where he had a 10-38 record. He got a 2nd chance with New Orleans and his D gave up the most yards in NFL history. They have up 7042 yards in a season. That's over 440 yards given up a game.
The Fewell not getting a pass is really because he was here a lot longer and his defenses have given up 40 or more points more than any DC in team history. Spags at least took an awful performing defense-which it was under Lewis - and they were pretty stout. If Fewell ever showed for a season that his defensive schemes were dominant (not counting backup qbs) then he'd get a pass. Five years is a long time in this league.
Spagnuolo's schemes were never "dominant", either... and can we stop acting like the guy had no talent? He had a HoF player at DE, a young stud DE, another excellent pass rushing DE, a very good MIKE another good OLB.
I'd really rather go in another direction. People are talking about this guy like he's a defensive genius.
Spags got a 2nd chance after St Louis where he had a 10-38 record. He got a 2nd chance with New Orleans and his D gave up the most yards in NFL history. They have up 7042 yards in a season. That's over 440 yards given up a game.
Oh, a second chance with a team that had their HC suspended as well as defensive players? Great opportunity to succeed.
Spags got a 2nd chance after St Louis where he had a 10-38 record. He got a 2nd chance with New Orleans and his D gave up the most yards in NFL history. They have up 7042 yards in a season. That's over 440 yards given up a game.
Did he forget how to coach or were there other factors that came into play in N.O. and STL?
RE: RE: RE: Spags has been a total failure since leaving the Giants
Were also WAY better then Spag's Rams team. His first season he won 1 game, 2nd season he won 7 and his 3rd season he won 2 games. Spags was 10-38 in 3 years there.
Belichick won more games in a single season then Spags won in 3 years with St. Louis. He also won a playoff game that year. Little Bill was 35-44 in 5 years there.
You guys are blaming the Ravens secondary coach for the defenses poor performance? Amazing how no one here ever blamed Peter Guinta for the poor secondary play of the Giants, it was all laid at the feet of PF (where it should have been) seems like a huge double standard going on from the folks that don't want Spags back
Vilma was the only one suspended for the season. Anthony Hargrove who isn't anytbing special missed 8 games. Will Smith was probably the best player to be suspended and he missed 4 games.
He still coached the first D in NFL history to give up over 7000 yards in a season..
We had a dominant OL and a dominant ball control offense which helped the defense a lot. When the offense started to struggle down the stretch without Plax, the defense did too.
As I keep saying of all the legitimate criticisms of Spagnolo's post Giants career, his performance as the position coordinator of this very injured and talent deficient Ravens cornerback group isn't a particularly compelling case.
A position coach can only work with what he's given, Webb and a bunch of UDFA's isn't much.
Vilma was the only one suspended for the season. Anthony Hargrove who isn't anytbing special missed 8 games. Will Smith was probably the best player to be suspended and he missed 4 games.
He still coached the first D in NFL history to give up over 7000 yards in a season..
You guys are blaming the Ravens secondary coach for the defenses poor performance? Amazing how no one here ever blamed Peter Guinta for the poor secondary play of the Giants, it was all laid at the feet of PF (where it should have been) seems like a huge double standard going on from the folks that don't want Spags back
It goes both ways. Last week there were numerous people giving Spags all the credit for how well the Ravens defense was playing. Not one person said the name "Dean Pees"..
You guys are blaming the Ravens secondary coach for the defenses poor performance? Amazing how no one here ever blamed Peter Guinta for the poor secondary play of the Giants, it was all laid at the feet of PF (where it should have been) seems like a huge double standard going on from the folks that don't want Spags back
Giunta is out of a job. Fewell is out of a job.
People are trotting out every excuse under the sun for Spags (many of which could just as easily apply to Fewell/Giunta, but aren't for whatever reason...) to justify giving him a promotion from his current job and hand him the reins to try and fix a talent depleted unit coming off a terrible season.
The Giants D was fifth in points and yards allowed
Spags got a 2nd chance after St Louis where he had a 10-38 record. He got a 2nd chance with New Orleans and his D gave up the most yards in NFL history. They have up 7042 yards in a season. That's over 440 yards given up a game.
Did he forget how to coach or were there other factors that came into play in N.O. and STL?
Phiily,
Coaching opportunities mostly arise because the prior coach/regime has failed and the organization is in turmoil. What separates the great coaches from the rest is their ability to turn around floundering/flawed organizations. Spags did a great job doing that with the Giants defense in 2007 but has struggled since. In retrospect he had a talented defense in 2007 -2008 but less than ideal situations since. Whoever accepts the current DC position will be inheriting a very flawed defensive unit. In favor of Spags is his success under TC but it's hard to ignore his struggles with less talented units, which is the situation he will find himself in.
Don't think any of these guys forget how to coach, but shit happens and they aren't as successful as they once wore. Happens all over the NFL. Obviously he is doing something wrong since he hasn't had a successful unit that he's coaching since 2008.
this Giants defense isn't talented either ... especially if they don't re-sign JPP. If Spags had done his work 6 years ago for another similarly talented team instead of the Giants, would he even be on the radar to the hired now?
is that going to be another year of whining and complaining with you? If that's the case, no Spags..I can't take anymore..:)
If the team sucks, I'm going to say they suck, '56.
Right now, they suck and they've chosen to seemingly put themselves in an awkward position of trying to extend a dying era instead of blowing it up and rebuilding.
I'll root like hell for him to succeed if he somehow ends up here, but bringing on a DC that has a seemingly failed track record at his last three jobs isn't going to likely do much to help things.
Quote
As I keep saying of all the legitimate criticisms of Spagnolo's post Giants career, his performance as the position coordinator of this very injured and talent deficient Ravens cornerback group isn't a particularly compelling case.
A position coach can only work with what he's given, Webb and a bunch of UDFA's isn't much.
Who are all these UDFAs? They have a few, but I guarantee most didn't see the field. You are making it seem like they only put UDFAs on the field. They have plenty of talent in the secondary. 50 million dollar Ladarius Webb, PFF 2nd rated Safety from 2013 in Will Hill, 1st round pick Matt Elam & Antoine Cason, 5th round pick Chris Greenwood.
Tuck
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Webster was a damn good CB after he turned the corner for a few years before injuries wiped him, Tuck was at his peak and fucking awesome, Pierce was a solid MLB until his neck went, and Cofield and Robbins were really good up the middle.
Fewell would have killed a small animal or twenty for that talent this season or last.
You guys are blaming the Ravens secondary coach for the defenses poor performance? Amazing how no one here ever blamed Peter Guinta for the poor secondary play of the Giants, it was all laid at the feet of PF (where it should have been) seems like a huge double standard going on from the folks that don't want Spags back
Giunta is out of a job. Fewell is out of a job.
People are trotting out every excuse under the sun for Spags (many of which could just as easily apply to Fewell/Giunta, but aren't for whatever reason...) to justify giving him a promotion from his current job and hand him the reins to try and fix a talent depleted unit coming off a terrible season.
And how many Giants fans were surprised that Guinta was fired along with Fewell? Plenty..my point is that there is a huge difference between being a position coach and a coordinator. He is coaching his position group based on the philosophy of the DC.I for one don't know if Spags is the best choice or not ..I know he's the easiest. But I don't think that anything that happened tonight changes anything.
Tuck
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Webster was a damn good CB after he turned the corner for a few years before injuries wiped him, Tuck was at his peak and fucking awesome, Pierce was a solid MLB until his neck went, and Cofield and Robbins were really good up the middle.
Fewell would have killed a small animal or twenty for that talent this season or last.
Prince and DRC are better than anything the Giants had. Webster was a bust until Spags took over. Rolle was better than any safety we had. JPP should be better than any DL we had. Hankins was played awesome this year. I don't see the drastic difference in talent.
Spagnuolo seems to keep getting a pass for the injuries and talent deficiencies in his secondary and yet, Fewell was starting almost all backups including a guy that the Ravens didn't even deem useful enough to keep around.
Couldn't agree more. Both Fewell and Spags have won SBs as DCs. Why anybody thinks Spags has this huge gap over Fewell is laughable...
Aside from a 6 game stretch when he reluctantly went AGAINST his own philosophy on defense at the behest of his players when we were 7-7 and teetering on playoff extinction, Fewells defenses were horribly inconsistent hemorrhaging yards on record paces for like 3 of the 5 years he was here.
Spagnuols defenses were mostly dominant his entire two years here. But yeah aside from that there is no big gap.
I loved Pierce and was one of his biggest supporters. However, a ton of Giants fans were ready to throw him out because he was slow and couldn't cover anything. He had plenty of critics.
Tuck
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Webster was a damn good CB after he turned the corner for a few years before injuries wiped him, Tuck was at his peak and fucking awesome, Pierce was a solid MLB until his neck went, and Cofield and Robbins were really good up the middle.
Fewell would have killed a small animal or twenty for that talent this season or last.
Prince and DRC are better than anything the Giants had. Webster was a bust until Spags took over. Rolle was better than any safety we had. JPP should be better than any DL we had. Hankins was played awesome this year. I don't see the drastic difference in talent.
The talent is NOT drastically different. But the DC could very well end up being the big difference.
RE: RE: RE: Mike Harris and Chykie Brown were getting snaps in our secondary.
The Ravens cut Chykie Brown he was their slot CB for the first half of their season.
So Fewell had to line up Spags' rejects!
The question for Spags will be- you did a great job with Strahan, Osi, Coefield,'Robbins, Tuck, Kiwi, et al. You've struggled mightily with talent depleted units- what will you do to resuscitate the Giants, talent, depleted defense?
D was not talent depleted, it was effective system depleted
DRC was 100% for how much of it? He spent half the season having to come out of games in the middle of drives because he was in too much pain.
Of our top 4 corners, 3 were in IR by midway through the year.
Much like Pierce, Beason was not good in coverage either but he still made a huge difference. Fewell was here for 5 seasons and had a dependable MIKE for about 20 games total between Goff and Beason.
Also, if anyone wanted to welcome JerseyJoe back...
DRC was 100% for how much of it? He spent half the season having to come out of games in the middle of drives because he was in too much pain.
Of our top 4 corners, 3 were in IR by midway through the year.
Much like Pierce, Beason was not good in coverage either but he still made a huge difference. Fewell was here for 5 seasons and had a dependable MIKE for about 20 games total between Goff and Beason.
You keep bringing this up. What about the nightmare that was Detroit to open the season? What about when they were healthy? Why was there constant miscommunication for years in the secondary? Give it a rest.
Hankins was good, but he was next to the equiv of shit.
Cofield + Robbins >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hankins + Useless Warm Body #231.
Justin Tuck was every bit as good, if not better, than non-2011 JPP back then. His peak wasn't as long as we'd have all liked, but he was awesome for awhile. There was also Osi, Strahan, and even Kiwanuka (who in 2008, playing his natural position, actually got to flash the type of player he might have been if not for the LB conversion and injuries)
Rolle is clearly losing it and was largely awful this season, playing next to guys even worse than he was and worse than the Butlers and Wilsons of the league.
Prime Webster was better than what DRC was this season thanks the injuries.
Lord knows we never had one bad game when Spags was here...
Strahan - Hall of Famer
Osi - 2x All Pro
Tuck - 2x All Pro
Robbins - 1x All Pro
Cofield - 6 year 36 million $ contract
Kiwi - 1st round pick
Danny Clark - Not a good player
Pierce - 1x Pro Bowler
Chase Blackburn - Not a good player
Webster - 2nd round pick
Ross - 1st round pick
Michael Johnson - Not a good player
James Butler - Not a good player
Kawika Mitchell - 2nd round pick
Gerris Wilkinson - 3rd round pick
Kenny Phillips - 1st round pick
Terrell Thomas - 2nd round pick
Sam Madison - 3x All Pro
RW McQuarters - 1st round pick
Between a HOFer, All-Pros, Pro Bowler and guys taken in the first 3 rounds he had a ton of talent here.
I just can't stand people tearing down Spags to try to justify some shit with Fewell. You cannot argue that he was a great DC when he was here hence why he got a head coaching job and why Fewell never got that chance and was fired.
I'm forever thankful for his contribution to the 2007 Giants, which was a HUGE one. But he hasn't had a great resume since leaving NY, even though I don't believe he is completely to blame for that, but definitely shares his fair share of blame.
The only thing is, there aren't any great candidates out there right now.
RE: RE: Lord knows we never had one bad game when Spags was here...
Quote
As I keep saying of all the legitimate criticisms of Spagnolo's post Giants career, his performance as the position coordinator of this very injured and talent deficient Ravens cornerback group isn't a particularly compelling case.
A position coach can only work with what he's given, Webb and a bunch of UDFA's isn't much.
Who are all these UDFAs? They have a few, but I guarantee most didn't see the field. You are making it seem like they only put UDFAs on the field. They have plenty of talent in the secondary. 50 million dollar Ladarius Webb, PFF 2nd rated Safety from 2013 in Will Hill, 1st round pick Matt Elam & Antoine Cason, 5th round pick Chris Greenwood.
Melvin their starting RCB, you may have missed him he was getting beaten like a drum and couldn't tackle a dummy this afternoon. And their starting slot cb was Anthony Levine another UDFA. Two of their starting CB's are UDFA is that enough for you?
Cason was signed from the couch in December and hasn't started.
Strahan - Hall of Famer
Osi - 2x All Pro
Tuck - 2x All Pro
Robbins - 1x All Pro
Cofield - 6 year 36 million $ contract
Kiwi - 1st round pick
Danny Clark - Not a good player
Pierce - 1x Pro Bowler
Chase Blackburn - Not a good player
Webster - 2nd round pick
Ross - 1st round pick
Michael Johnson - Not a good player
James Butler - Not a good player
Kawika Mitchell - 2nd round pick
Gerris Wilkinson - 3rd round pick
Kenny Phillips - 1st round pick
Terrell Thomas - 2nd round pick
Sam Madison - 3x All Pro
RW McQuarters - 1st round pick
Between a HOFer, All-Pros, Pro Bowler and guys taken in the first 3 rounds he had a ton of talent here.
Heck of a team. Interestingly- Blackburn was a backup MLB but was the best MLB PF had for a couple of years
I don't think we need Spags to be a genius. Just keep it at 20 points or less and we will win most games. Can't give up 40. How good was Tuck under the legendary Tim Lewis? Does Spags get any credit for his development? Those linebackers and secondary werent pro bowlers or anything close. Not saying Spags is Buddy Ryan but he did a lot more than his predecessor or successor did with the same talent.
I'm not trying to justify Fewell either. He was terrible. I wanted him gone after 2012. Just don't think Spags should be the DC off of something he did 6 years ago while having a terrible resume in between those 6 years.
RE: RE: RE: Lord knows we never had one bad game when Spags was here...
Show me the bad games Spags had and I will show you many more that Fewell had.
Well, gee.. one guy was DC here for 48 more games than the other. That's not saying much.
I'm sure I'm not allowed to point out all the disasters that happened on Spags' watch in NO or StL, though right? He's off the hook for those.
We are talking about his time here because you are saying he had so much more talent to work with. I showed you that he didn't. You can twist it any way you want but Spags was a phenomenal DC while here and YES we did have a dominant unit. I don't get how you can say we didn't.
Yes you can make it look like Spags didn't have talent when you put a selective list together like you did. You forgot Strahan, Osi, Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Kawika Mitchell, Sam Madison, RW McQuarters. He had plenty of veteran and young talent to develop.
Spags was here the players would have run through concrete walls for him...a DC needs to inspire and motivate these players. Spags did that by earning their respect...
I don't think we need Spags to be a genius. Just keep it at 20 points or less and we will win most games. Can't give up 40. How good was Tuck under the legendary Tim Lewis? Does Spags get any credit for his development? Those linebackers and secondary werent pro bowlers or anything close. Not saying Spags is Buddy Ryan but he did a lot more than his predecessor or successor did with the same talent.
Well, then I guess I can give Fewell full credit for the development of guys like Amukamara, Joseph, Hankins, etc. too right?
And we must just have different standards of what "dominant" defense is. I never felt like the 2008 Giants defense was a suffocating unit. I think they were very good at times but they weren't the Steelers. If there was a defense you were going to call dominant that year, it would have been them.. not us.
I'm not trying to justify Fewell either. He was terrible. I wanted him gone after 2012. Just don't think Spags should be the DC off of something he did 6 years ago while having a terrible resume in between those 6 years.
But, your opinion is just as bad as those wanting him, imo. Is a coach not allowed to rebuild his reputation? Why should he automatically be denied an opportunity? He has shown that he can get the job done in this organization. Yes, things are totally different. Different staff, different players. However, management and the head coach are the same. Maybe that means something. My point is that he should absolutely be considered for the job.
I am actually very interested in Pepper Johnson. A guy that busts his ass as long as he has knows that he is only going to get one opportunity. He has worked with some great defensive minds. I am sure he has a ton to offer.
There is no guarantee with whoever we hire. I don't want Mike Smith because I don't like his style of coaching. I don't think it fits this team. On the same hand, what do we really have on defense? JPP is a question mark. I think we should switch to a 3-4 personally and I have stated the reasons why numerous times. I think if we are ever going to do that now would be the time. I'm not doing it just for the sake of doing it. A 3-4 is no better than a 4-3 just like a Tampa 2 is no better than an blitz heavy attack. It is all about execution and putting your players in position to succeed. Whatever coach can accomplish that should get the job.
Wanna know why Spags gets a pass with the injuries
Yes you can make it look like Spags didn't have talent when you put a selective list together like you did. You forgot Strahan, Osi, Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Kawika Mitchell, Sam Madison, RW McQuarters. He had plenty of veteran and young talent to develop.
A lot of those players weren't here in 2008. His defense was arguably better in 2008. His defense got better with less talent. Why was that?
RE: I hope Pepper Johnson kills it in his interview
Fewell certainly does deserve credit for Hankins, Prince development. They are good players for sure. Tuck was a slightly above average player with Tim Lewis who became all pro under Spags. I liked Spags desire to get to the QB. He would have had a different more attacking scheme against Romo on that last drive. Just my opinion. I don't like read react bend don't break stuff. We can agree to disagree there of course.
He absolutely should be able to rebuild his reputation, but I think a coach should have to succeed as a position coach before taking over a whole defense. Injuries or not he really hasn't done that. For most of the season they were the 31st ranked pass D in the league. By the end of the season only the Skins, Bucs, Falcons, Cowboys, Saints, Steelers, Bears and Eagles has worse pass D. Do we want to hire any of their DB coaches?!
The Ravens allowed 64.2% completed passes with almost 4000 yards given up through the air. They had 22 passing TDs allowed and 11 INTs.
The Giants were better in all categories except TDs allowed. We allowed 3 more TDs, but had 6 more INTs.
He absolutely should be able to rebuild his reputation, but I think a coach should have to succeed as a position coach before taking over a whole defense. Injuries or not he really hasn't done that. For most of the season they were the 31st ranked pass D in the league. By the end of the season only the Skins, Bucs, Falcons, Cowboys, Saints, Steelers, Bears and Eagles has worse pass D. Do we want to hire any of their DB coaches?!
The Ravens allowed 64.2% completed passes with almost 4000 yards given up through the air. They had 22 passing TDs allowed and 11 INTs.
The Giants were better in all categories except TDs allowed. We allowed 3 more TDs, but had 6 more INTs.
I understand your point. That isn't all on him though either. A lot is but a lot is the LBs too and lack pressure.
and this isn't a knock against you but just in general. It is the way things are done but being a good position coach doesn't mean you will be a good DC. Being a good DC doesn't mean you will be a good HC. I get why that is the way things are done but I don't think that should automatically be the order of things.
Is all on him. The Rams and Saints years weren't all on him either. If you looked at a coach not named Spagnuolo who had the last 6 years that he did would you want him?
Nobody wanted Raheem Morris, but over the last 6 years he has had a better resume then Spags does. The Skins have far less talent at DB and they finished 1 spot behind them in pass D. In 2013 the Skins had the 19th ranked pass D. Raheem had as many wins in 2010 as Spags did the entire time he was with the Rams. Just using Raheem as an example as I wanted nothing to do with him. Nobody did, but they want Spags who has had a worst resume since 2009.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
+10
You all forget that we trotted an almost 100% healthy defense against the Lions and got destroyed on national TV. It's not the first time it's happend to a Perry Fewl defense that was healthy and that is why no one defends him.
I don't think anybody is sticking up for Fewell on here. Idk why anybody is comparing the two. People are just stating that Spags isn't a good choice, because of what he's done the past 6 years.
Fewell certainly does deserve credit for Hankins, Prince development. They are good players for sure. Tuck was a slightly above average player with Tim Lewis who became all pro under Spags. I liked Spags desire to get to the QB. He would have had a different more attacking scheme against Romo on that last drive. Just my opinion. I don't like read react bend don't break stuff. We can agree to disagree there of course.
Tuck was a rookie in 2005.
In 2006, Tuck was beginning to come on but suffered a season ending injury after the 6th game.
No true judgment could be made on whether Tuck would or would not have turned into the eventual All-Pro he became due to lack of time he actually played.
The dynamic of being a HC vs DC is entirely different. Some guys are amazing DCs but aren't head coach material (LeBeau, Wade,etc.)
Also you can have the potential to be a great defensive coordinator but either have very little talent, or the players you have just aren't a great fit for the type of D you prefer to run.
However he is an amazing fit here plain and simple.
From the fit within the culture of the organization, coaching staff, all the way to the type of players we have and the type of defense he likes to run.
I don't want anyone else out there truthfully. They are either guys with experience but not really great fits or guys with potential but no experience. LeBeau is intriguing but he's been running a 3-4 for years and is no spring chicken at 77.
Spags proved for 2 years straight he could do it here and the 2 years he was here were arguably the best 2 consecutive years of D since the Parcells/Belichek days.
Reese drafts certain types of D players and they translate very well to the type of aggressive system Spags likes to employ.
I really think the Giants feel the same way. Raheem and Pepper are more or less window dressing interviews (at most non-preferred back-up plans). I think Spags in Plan A the whole way and rightfully so.
A coaching job today. He basically trotted 2 to 4 street FA guys out on the field and in the first playoff game against the second highest scoring team in the league and beat them and I feel like they more then held their own against the Pats today. Gronk killed them, and if you don't have an LB that can cover Gronk that's going to happen.
A coaching job today. He basically trotted 2 to 4 street FA guys out on the field and in the first playoff game against the second highest scoring team in the league and beat them and I feel like they more then held their own against the Pats today. Gronk killed them, and if you don't have an LB that can cover Gronk that's going to happen.
A hell of a job? The Pats dropped 35 points on them. If that's a hell of a job, you have pretty low standards. Brady shredded that secondary today.
Allowed 67% of passes to be completed for 408 yards and 4 TDs against a team with a run game that was non existent. They had 4 rushes in the 2nd half. A Brady QB sneak and 3 kneel downs. Don't think you can say that's anytbing other then a terrible day.
RE: RE: I'd actually argue that Spags did a hell of
A coaching job today. He basically trotted 2 to 4 street FA guys out on the field and in the first playoff game against the second highest scoring team in the league and beat them and I feel like they more then held their own against the Pats today. Gronk killed them, and if you don't have an LB that can cover Gronk that's going to happen.
A hell of a job? The Pats dropped 35 points on them. If that's a hell of a job, you have pretty low standards. Brady shredded that secondary today.
My point was they played 2 high powered throwing offenses in a row. Pitt has explosive receivers and he managed to get the job done to go play New England today with more then likely 2 to 4 guys the Ravens had to sign off the street sometime this season.
Secondly, if you actually watched the game, you would have realized Gronkowski was destroying them. They didn't have a player on the field that could cover them. They didn't loose because his DBs couldn't cover their receivers. They lost because the entire Ravens D had no answer for Gronk and Brady abused the mismatch all day.
Amendola had 80 yards and 2 TD's, Edelman caught 8 passes for 74 yards, LaFell caught 5 for 62 and a long score..
I don't want to hear about how they just couldn't stop Gronk because Brady hit 7 different receivers and there were 3 TD's scored by WR's who weren't named Gronkowski.
There is no other way to slice it. The Ravens pass defense sucked today.
Good these past two weeks. They played two teams who were 1 dimensional on offense. The Steelers did not have Le'Veon Bell and the Pats just don't have a run game. A good pass D should be able to shut down a team when they know the offense is going to pass the ball.
Amendola had 80 yards and 2 TD's, Edelman caught 8 passes for 74 yards, LaFell caught 5 for 62 and a long score..
I don't want to hear about how they just couldn't stop Gronk because Brady hit 7 different receivers and there were 3 TD's scored by WR's who weren't named Gronkowski.
There is no other way to slice it. The Ravens pass defense sucked today.
.
They also were playing with street FA and still had a chance to win at the end of the game. Perry Fewell coached that game we would have had a 21 point deficit.
Yeah, because Fewell never had to play with any street FA. We were playing with one of the poor Ravens rejects this year.
It's amazing how a performance like today gets spun into a "great performance" for Spags even though he's not even the DC.. how many times did you give Dave Merritt or Pete Guinta this much credit in games where our defense played well? I'd guess none.
Can we give the NO thing a rest already. One year with a team that was arguably the most dysfunctional front office/head coaching situation in NFL history. It's comical the lengths some go to find flimsy evidence to support a bias.
There are plenty of pros and cons for which the merits of can be debated, but this one is just silly.
I think you are completely overstating the HC thing. Payton is an offensive guy so I doubt he has anything to do with the defense. They had one of the best offenses in the NFL that year. They were top 2 or 3 in most offensive categories. If it was such a dysfunctional environment why was the offense still very good?
They had the worst D in NFL HISTORY. There is no way anybody can try to twist it to make it seem like his coaching was anything other then extremely terrible.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
So talent isn't a factor in the league? You're meant to be able to coach up any schlub? The Ravens had two players signed in November from other teams practice squads as their RCB and Slot CB respectively. You can't just say shit secondary, shit coaching, talent has to play a part. They were down to fumes from a secondary which was essentially Webb and Smith and not much else to begin with.
The injuries to our CB's didn't cause us to be unable to defend the run or completely fail to defend any read option QB. If it was just pass coverage breakdowns (and we had plenty of that) then Fewell would have an excuse, but his entire defense was broken.
Yeah yeah, we get it. Spags had lots of injuries in his secondary, but Fewel/Guinta had even more injuries in their secondary and none of us want them back....
Is Spags interested?
Giants come to terms with Spags.
NO
Circle one.
Giants might legit be the only team in the NFL that would give even a thought to him as a DC at this point, lack of stability or not. Which isn't exactly consoling to me as a fan.
Spags and Pepper to Interview - ( New Window )
Looks like it may be a Casio.
Why wouldn't a giants fan want Spags back ? He might've sucked with other teams, but he was damn good here
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Title of PFT article misleading... Nothing official about Spags interview, just speculation at this point.
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He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
He was the DC with the Saints and gave up the most yards in NFL history.
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
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He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
^^^^^what he said +1
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
Quote:
He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
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In comment 12086848 Riggies said:
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
Quote:
He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
+10
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In comment 12086848 Riggies said:
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
Quote:
He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
The defense was pretty 'meh' at best here for the past 2-3 seasons. It's easy to see why TC and crew might be interested in bringing Spags back, especially when you take into consideration the available options out there.
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In comment 12086848 Riggies said:
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
Quote:
He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
So talent isn't a factor in the league? You're meant to be able to coach up any schlub? The Ravens had two players signed in November from other teams practice squads as their RCB and Slot CB respectively. You can't just say shit secondary, shit coaching, talent has to play a part. They were down to fumes from a secondary which was essentially Webb and Smith and not much else to begin with.
The injuries to our CB's didn't cause us to be unable to defend the run or completely fail to defend any read option QB. If it was just pass coverage breakdowns (and we had plenty of that) then Fewell would have an excuse, but his entire defense was broken.
I know this job isn't all that appealing, but I still want better than some fan service retread with an extremely rough recent track record.
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In comment 12086861 phillygiant said:
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In comment 12086848 Riggies said:
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
Quote:
He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
The defense was pretty 'meh' at best here for the past 2-3 seasons. It's easy to see why TC and crew might be interested in bringing Spags back, especially when you take into consideration the available options out there.
Fewell struggled due to lack of quality/depth and injuries. Spags has struggled for similar reasons. The common denominator is that unless the Giants significantly upgrade their defensive talent, the defense will struggle under any DC.
Jimmy Smith - Starter
Aaron Ross - Terrible
Danny Gorrer - 8 teams in 5 years
Asa Jackson - 5th round pick
Terrace Brooks and Tramain Jacobs - Both are rookies
That doesn't explain an absolutely terrible job in St. Louis and New Orleans.
December.
RCB Melvin (UDFA picked up from the Dolphins practice squad in November after being at Tampa Bay where for the short period he was on the active roster he was a gameday scratch); Levine (UDFA); Greenwood (5th round pick by the Lions in 2012, bounced around the Lions, Cowboys and Vikings practice squads, signed in December.)
The Ravens cut Chykie Brown he was their slot CB for the first half of their season.
It would blow people's minds if they realized Brown was off the Raven scrap heap.
Someone so terrible he was useless to this totally depleted secondary that poor Spags was saddled with ended up getting fairly significant snaps for Fewell/Giunta's defense... But somehow they get no excuses.
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But I guess everyone knew who those guys were...
The Ravens cut Chykie Brown he was their slot CB for the first half of their season.
So Fewell had to line up Spags' rejects!
The question for Spags will be- you did a great job with Strahan, Osi, Coefield,'Robbins, Tuck, Kiwi, et al. You've struggled mightily with talent depleted units- what will you do to resuscitate the Giants, talent, depleted defense?
Jimmy Smith - Starter
Aaron Ross - Terrible
Danny Gorrer - 8 teams in 5 years
Asa Jackson - 5th round pick
Terrace Brooks and Tramain Jacobs - Both are rookies
That doesn't explain an absolutely terrible job in St. Louis and New Orleans.
Asa Jackson was their starting slot CB, he won the job in camp over Chykie Brown.
Ultimately a position coach can only work with what he is given. The Ravens started with a weak group of cornerbacks and progressively got worse due to injuries.
I'm not actually a big proponent of "Spags" for our DC, I think you should never go back and frankly while I can see the argument for giving him a bit of a pass for the situation at the Saints, I'm not sure I ultimately buy it, but I do think criticising him for the Ravens secondary is a very weak argument given it was a weak group at the start of the season which got decimated by injuries.
Couldn't agree more. Both Fewell and Spags have won SBs as DCs. Why anybody thinks Spags has this huge gap over Fewell is laughable...
The secondary was only part of Fewells issue though. The failure to stop the run, the failure to defend against read-option QB's is nothing to do with the injuries at CB.
For less than half the season.
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Spagnuolo seems to keep getting a pass for the injuries and talent deficiencies in his secondary and yet, Fewell was starting almost all backups including a guy that the Ravens didn't even deem useful enough to keep around.
The secondary was only part of Fewells issue though. The failure to stop the run, the failure to defend against read-option QB's is nothing to do with the injuries at CB.
We had no problem stopping the run last year. We were 6th in the NFL in YPA against and shut down a lot of excellent RB's. When you lose an excellent run stopping MIKE and DT depth, you're going to struggle.
Let's all move on.
The beat guys are saying it, but they also were all but guaranteeing the OC job was Mike Sullivans last year.
So by that brilliant logic he mysteriously forgot how to coach
Unless you think LeBeau still has it at 77 AND he can coach the 4-3 well. It's Spags by a long shot amongst the available coaches.
They were relatively healthy in 2013, and had Graham who's just came off a fantastic season for Buffalo (PFF rating of +9.7). This year they had Webb and Smith to start with Brown/Jackson as the slot. Webb fought back injuries all season (started only 13 games out including the playoffs) and frankly Webb isn't very good.
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why would you hire a guy for what he did 6 years ago when you consider what he has done lately?
So by that brilliant logic he mysteriously forgot how to coach
The question is not whether he's forgotten to coach but whether his early success was due to the talent he had available to him.
Spagnuolo's schemes were never "dominant", either... and can we stop acting like the guy had no talent? He had a HoF player at DE, a young stud DE, another excellent pass rushing DE, a very good MIKE another good OLB.
I'd really rather go in another direction. People are talking about this guy like he's a defensive genius.
Oh, a second chance with a team that had their HC suspended as well as defensive players? Great opportunity to succeed.
Did he forget how to coach or were there other factors that came into play in N.O. and STL?
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In comment 12086967 Steve in South Jersey said:
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why would you hire a guy for what he did 6 years ago when you consider what he has done lately?
So by that brilliant logic he mysteriously forgot how to coach
The question is not whether he's forgotten to coach but whether his early success was due to the talent he had available to him.
Tell ya what
Go read the article on nj.com and see what Pierce and Osi had to say about Spags
That will answer your question
Belichick won more games in a single season then Spags won in 3 years with St. Louis. He also won a playoff game that year. Little Bill was 35-44 in 5 years there.
He still coached the first D in NFL history to give up over 7000 yards in a season..
We had a dominant OL and a dominant ball control offense which helped the defense a lot. When the offense started to struggle down the stretch without Plax, the defense did too.
As I keep saying of all the legitimate criticisms of Spagnolo's post Giants career, his performance as the position coordinator of this very injured and talent deficient Ravens cornerback group isn't a particularly compelling case.
A position coach can only work with what he's given, Webb and a bunch of UDFA's isn't much.
He still coached the first D in NFL history to give up over 7000 yards in a season..
So, that holds more weight than his time here?
It goes both ways. Last week there were numerous people giving Spags all the credit for how well the Ravens defense was playing. Not one person said the name "Dean Pees"..
Giunta is out of a job. Fewell is out of a job.
People are trotting out every excuse under the sun for Spags (many of which could just as easily apply to Fewell/Giunta, but aren't for whatever reason...) to justify giving him a promotion from his current job and hand him the reins to try and fix a talent depleted unit coming off a terrible season.
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Spags got a 2nd chance after St Louis where he had a 10-38 record. He got a 2nd chance with New Orleans and his D gave up the most yards in NFL history. They have up 7042 yards in a season. That's over 440 yards given up a game.
Did he forget how to coach or were there other factors that came into play in N.O. and STL?
Phiily,
Coaching opportunities mostly arise because the prior coach/regime has failed and the organization is in turmoil. What separates the great coaches from the rest is their ability to turn around floundering/flawed organizations. Spags did a great job doing that with the Giants defense in 2007 but has struggled since. In retrospect he had a talented defense in 2007 -2008 but less than ideal situations since. Whoever accepts the current DC position will be inheriting a very flawed defensive unit. In favor of Spags is his success under TC but it's hard to ignore his struggles with less talented units, which is the situation he will find himself in.
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
If the team sucks, I'm going to say they suck, '56.
Right now, they suck and they've chosen to seemingly put themselves in an awkward position of trying to extend a dying era instead of blowing it up and rebuilding.
I'll root like hell for him to succeed if he somehow ends up here, but bringing on a DC that has a seemingly failed track record at his last three jobs isn't going to likely do much to help things.
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As I keep saying of all the legitimate criticisms of Spagnolo's post Giants career, his performance as the position coordinator of this very injured and talent deficient Ravens cornerback group isn't a particularly compelling case.
A position coach can only work with what he's given, Webb and a bunch of UDFA's isn't much.
Who are all these UDFAs? They have a few, but I guarantee most didn't see the field. You are making it seem like they only put UDFAs on the field. They have plenty of talent in the secondary. 50 million dollar Ladarius Webb, PFF 2nd rated Safety from 2013 in Will Hill, 1st round pick Matt Elam & Antoine Cason, 5th round pick Chris Greenwood.
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Webster was a damn good CB after he turned the corner for a few years before injuries wiped him, Tuck was at his peak and fucking awesome, Pierce was a solid MLB until his neck went, and Cofield and Robbins were really good up the middle.
Fewell would have killed a small animal or twenty for that talent this season or last.
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You guys are blaming the Ravens secondary coach for the defenses poor performance? Amazing how no one here ever blamed Peter Guinta for the poor secondary play of the Giants, it was all laid at the feet of PF (where it should have been) seems like a huge double standard going on from the folks that don't want Spags back
Giunta is out of a job. Fewell is out of a job.
People are trotting out every excuse under the sun for Spags (many of which could just as easily apply to Fewell/Giunta, but aren't for whatever reason...) to justify giving him a promotion from his current job and hand him the reins to try and fix a talent depleted unit coming off a terrible season.
And how many Giants fans were surprised that Guinta was fired along with Fewell? Plenty..my point is that there is a huge difference between being a position coach and a coordinator. He is coaching his position group based on the philosophy of the DC.I for one don't know if Spags is the best choice or not ..I know he's the easiest. But I don't think that anything that happened tonight changes anything.
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Tuck
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Webster was a damn good CB after he turned the corner for a few years before injuries wiped him, Tuck was at his peak and fucking awesome, Pierce was a solid MLB until his neck went, and Cofield and Robbins were really good up the middle.
Fewell would have killed a small animal or twenty for that talent this season or last.
Prince and DRC are better than anything the Giants had. Webster was a bust until Spags took over. Rolle was better than any safety we had. JPP should be better than any DL we had. Hankins was played awesome this year. I don't see the drastic difference in talent.
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Spagnuolo seems to keep getting a pass for the injuries and talent deficiencies in his secondary and yet, Fewell was starting almost all backups including a guy that the Ravens didn't even deem useful enough to keep around.
Couldn't agree more. Both Fewell and Spags have won SBs as DCs. Why anybody thinks Spags has this huge gap over Fewell is laughable...
Aside from a 6 game stretch when he reluctantly went AGAINST his own philosophy on defense at the behest of his players when we were 7-7 and teetering on playoff extinction, Fewells defenses were horribly inconsistent hemorrhaging yards on record paces for like 3 of the 5 years he was here.
Spagnuols defenses were mostly dominant his entire two years here. But yeah aside from that there is no big gap.
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In comment 12087028 robbieballs2003 said:
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Tuck
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Webster was a damn good CB after he turned the corner for a few years before injuries wiped him, Tuck was at his peak and fucking awesome, Pierce was a solid MLB until his neck went, and Cofield and Robbins were really good up the middle.
Fewell would have killed a small animal or twenty for that talent this season or last.
Prince and DRC are better than anything the Giants had. Webster was a bust until Spags took over. Rolle was better than any safety we had. JPP should be better than any DL we had. Hankins was played awesome this year. I don't see the drastic difference in talent.
The talent is NOT drastically different. But the DC could very well end up being the big difference.
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In comment 12086893 arcarsenal said:
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But I guess everyone knew who those guys were...
The Ravens cut Chykie Brown he was their slot CB for the first half of their season.
So Fewell had to line up Spags' rejects!
The question for Spags will be- you did a great job with Strahan, Osi, Coefield,'Robbins, Tuck, Kiwi, et al. You've struggled mightily with talent depleted units- what will you do to resuscitate the Giants, talent, depleted defense?
D was not talent depleted, it was effective system depleted
Of our top 4 corners, 3 were in IR by midway through the year.
Much like Pierce, Beason was not good in coverage either but he still made a huge difference. Fewell was here for 5 seasons and had a dependable MIKE for about 20 games total between Goff and Beason.
Of our top 4 corners, 3 were in IR by midway through the year.
Much like Pierce, Beason was not good in coverage either but he still made a huge difference. Fewell was here for 5 seasons and had a dependable MIKE for about 20 games total between Goff and Beason.
You keep bringing this up. What about the nightmare that was Detroit to open the season? What about when they were healthy? Why was there constant miscommunication for years in the secondary? Give it a rest.
Justin Tuck was every bit as good, if not better, than non-2011 JPP back then. His peak wasn't as long as we'd have all liked, but he was awesome for awhile. There was also Osi, Strahan, and even Kiwanuka (who in 2008, playing his natural position, actually got to flash the type of player he might have been if not for the LB conversion and injuries)
Rolle is clearly losing it and was largely awful this season, playing next to guys even worse than he was and worse than the Butlers and Wilsons of the league.
Prime Webster was better than what DRC was this season thanks the injuries.
Show me the bad games Spags had and I will show you many more that Fewell had.
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Must have been watching a different team- I thought I saw Strahan, Osi, Gibril Wilson , K Mitchell out there.
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Tuck
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Must have been watching a different team- I thought I saw Strahan, Osi, Gibril Wilson , K Mitchell out there.
This is his 2008 roster which finished 5th in points and yards.
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Tuck
Robbins
Cofield
Kiwi
Danny Clark
Pierce
Chase Blackburn
Webster
Ross
Michael Johnson
James Butler
They better slow down all these HoFers from entering the hall of fame.
Must have been watching a different team- I thought I saw Strahan, Osi, Gibril Wilson , K Mitchell out there.
He is referring to the 2008 team.
That was. He'll of a defense as well
Strahan - Hall of Famer
Osi - 2x All Pro
Tuck - 2x All Pro
Robbins - 1x All Pro
Cofield - 6 year 36 million $ contract
Kiwi - 1st round pick
Danny Clark - Not a good player
Pierce - 1x Pro Bowler
Chase Blackburn - Not a good player
Webster - 2nd round pick
Ross - 1st round pick
Michael Johnson - Not a good player
James Butler - Not a good player
Kawika Mitchell - 2nd round pick
Gerris Wilkinson - 3rd round pick
Kenny Phillips - 1st round pick
Terrell Thomas - 2nd round pick
Sam Madison - 3x All Pro
RW McQuarters - 1st round pick
Between a HOFer, All-Pros, Pro Bowler and guys taken in the first 3 rounds he had a ton of talent here.
The only thing is, there aren't any great candidates out there right now.
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Your selective memory is wonderful.
Show me the bad games Spags had and I will show you many more that Fewell had.
Well, gee.. one guy was DC here for 48 more games than the other. That's not saying much.
I'm sure I'm not allowed to point out all the disasters that happened on Spags' watch in NO or StL, though right? He's off the hook for those.
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In comment 12087000 Spock said:
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As I keep saying of all the legitimate criticisms of Spagnolo's post Giants career, his performance as the position coordinator of this very injured and talent deficient Ravens cornerback group isn't a particularly compelling case.
A position coach can only work with what he's given, Webb and a bunch of UDFA's isn't much.
Who are all these UDFAs? They have a few, but I guarantee most didn't see the field. You are making it seem like they only put UDFAs on the field. They have plenty of talent in the secondary. 50 million dollar Ladarius Webb, PFF 2nd rated Safety from 2013 in Will Hill, 1st round pick Matt Elam & Antoine Cason, 5th round pick Chris Greenwood.
Melvin their starting RCB, you may have missed him he was getting beaten like a drum and couldn't tackle a dummy this afternoon. And their starting slot cb was Anthony Levine another UDFA. Two of their starting CB's are UDFA is that enough for you?
Cason was signed from the couch in December and hasn't started.
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Strahan - Hall of Famer
Osi - 2x All Pro
Tuck - 2x All Pro
Robbins - 1x All Pro
Cofield - 6 year 36 million $ contract
Kiwi - 1st round pick
Danny Clark - Not a good player
Pierce - 1x Pro Bowler
Chase Blackburn - Not a good player
Webster - 2nd round pick
Ross - 1st round pick
Michael Johnson - Not a good player
James Butler - Not a good player
Kawika Mitchell - 2nd round pick
Gerris Wilkinson - 3rd round pick
Kenny Phillips - 1st round pick
Terrell Thomas - 2nd round pick
Sam Madison - 3x All Pro
RW McQuarters - 1st round pick
Between a HOFer, All-Pros, Pro Bowler and guys taken in the first 3 rounds he had a ton of talent here.
Heck of a team. Interestingly- Blackburn was a backup MLB but was the best MLB PF had for a couple of years
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In comment 12087068 arcarsenal said:
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Your selective memory is wonderful.
Show me the bad games Spags had and I will show you many more that Fewell had.
Well, gee.. one guy was DC here for 48 more games than the other. That's not saying much.
I'm sure I'm not allowed to point out all the disasters that happened on Spags' watch in NO or StL, though right? He's off the hook for those.
We are talking about his time here because you are saying he had so much more talent to work with. I showed you that he didn't. You can twist it any way you want but Spags was a phenomenal DC while here and YES we did have a dominant unit. I don't get how you can say we didn't.
Well, then I guess I can give Fewell full credit for the development of guys like Amukamara, Joseph, Hankins, etc. too right?
And we must just have different standards of what "dominant" defense is. I never felt like the 2008 Giants defense was a suffocating unit. I think they were very good at times but they weren't the Steelers. If there was a defense you were going to call dominant that year, it would have been them.. not us.
But, your opinion is just as bad as those wanting him, imo. Is a coach not allowed to rebuild his reputation? Why should he automatically be denied an opportunity? He has shown that he can get the job done in this organization. Yes, things are totally different. Different staff, different players. However, management and the head coach are the same. Maybe that means something. My point is that he should absolutely be considered for the job.
I am actually very interested in Pepper Johnson. A guy that busts his ass as long as he has knows that he is only going to get one opportunity. He has worked with some great defensive minds. I am sure he has a ton to offer.
There is no guarantee with whoever we hire. I don't want Mike Smith because I don't like his style of coaching. I don't think it fits this team. On the same hand, what do we really have on defense? JPP is a question mark. I think we should switch to a 3-4 personally and I have stated the reasons why numerous times. I think if we are ever going to do that now would be the time. I'm not doing it just for the sake of doing it. A 3-4 is no better than a 4-3 just like a Tampa 2 is no better than an blitz heavy attack. It is all about execution and putting your players in position to succeed. Whatever coach can accomplish that should get the job.
One team played today. The other has been working on their golf game for two weeks already.
One team played today. The other has been working on their golf game for two weeks already.
Spags is not the Ravens DC.
A lot of those players weren't here in 2008. His defense was arguably better in 2008. His defense got better with less talent. Why was that?
So do I. I want him to get a chance.
+1
another +1, but pick the best DC without being sentimental what he did years ago. Look to 2015 and beyond.
The Ravens allowed 64.2% completed passes with almost 4000 yards given up through the air. They had 22 passing TDs allowed and 11 INTs.
The Giants were better in all categories except TDs allowed. We allowed 3 more TDs, but had 6 more INTs.
The Ravens allowed 64.2% completed passes with almost 4000 yards given up through the air. They had 22 passing TDs allowed and 11 INTs.
The Giants were better in all categories except TDs allowed. We allowed 3 more TDs, but had 6 more INTs.
I understand your point. That isn't all on him though either. A lot is but a lot is the LBs too and lack pressure.
Nobody wanted Raheem Morris, but over the last 6 years he has had a better resume then Spags does. The Skins have far less talent at DB and they finished 1 spot behind them in pass D. In 2013 the Skins had the 19th ranked pass D. Raheem had as many wins in 2010 as Spags did the entire time he was with the Rams. Just using Raheem as an example as I wanted nothing to do with him. Nobody did, but they want Spags who has had a worst resume since 2009.
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In comment 12086861 phillygiant said:
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In comment 12086848 Riggies said:
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
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He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
+10
You all forget that we trotted an almost 100% healthy defense against the Lions and got destroyed on national TV. It's not the first time it's happend to a Perry Fewl defense that was healthy and that is why no one defends him.
Tuck was a rookie in 2005.
In 2006, Tuck was beginning to come on but suffered a season ending injury after the 6th game.
No true judgment could be made on whether Tuck would or would not have turned into the eventual All-Pro he became due to lack of time he actually played.
Also you can have the potential to be a great defensive coordinator but either have very little talent, or the players you have just aren't a great fit for the type of D you prefer to run.
However he is an amazing fit here plain and simple.
From the fit within the culture of the organization, coaching staff, all the way to the type of players we have and the type of defense he likes to run.
I don't want anyone else out there truthfully. They are either guys with experience but not really great fits or guys with potential but no experience. LeBeau is intriguing but he's been running a 3-4 for years and is no spring chicken at 77.
Spags proved for 2 years straight he could do it here and the 2 years he was here were arguably the best 2 consecutive years of D since the Parcells/Belichek days.
Reese drafts certain types of D players and they translate very well to the type of aggressive system Spags likes to employ.
I really think the Giants feel the same way. Raheem and Pepper are more or less window dressing interviews (at most non-preferred back-up plans). I think Spags in Plan A the whole way and rightfully so.
A hell of a job? The Pats dropped 35 points on them. If that's a hell of a job, you have pretty low standards. Brady shredded that secondary today.
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A coaching job today. He basically trotted 2 to 4 street FA guys out on the field and in the first playoff game against the second highest scoring team in the league and beat them and I feel like they more then held their own against the Pats today. Gronk killed them, and if you don't have an LB that can cover Gronk that's going to happen.
A hell of a job? The Pats dropped 35 points on them. If that's a hell of a job, you have pretty low standards. Brady shredded that secondary today.
My point was they played 2 high powered throwing offenses in a row. Pitt has explosive receivers and he managed to get the job done to go play New England today with more then likely 2 to 4 guys the Ravens had to sign off the street sometime this season.
Secondly, if you actually watched the game, you would have realized Gronkowski was destroying them. They didn't have a player on the field that could cover them. They didn't loose because his DBs couldn't cover their receivers. They lost because the entire Ravens D had no answer for Gronk and Brady abused the mismatch all day.
I don't want to hear about how they just couldn't stop Gronk because Brady hit 7 different receivers and there were 3 TD's scored by WR's who weren't named Gronkowski.
There is no other way to slice it. The Ravens pass defense sucked today.
I don't want to hear about how they just couldn't stop Gronk because Brady hit 7 different receivers and there were 3 TD's scored by WR's who weren't named Gronkowski.
There is no other way to slice it. The Ravens pass defense sucked today.
They also were playing with street FA and still had a chance to win at the end of the game. Perry Fewell coached that game we would have had a 21 point deficit.
It's amazing how a performance like today gets spun into a "great performance" for Spags even though he's not even the DC.. how many times did you give Dave Merritt or Pete Guinta this much credit in games where our defense played well? I'd guess none.
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
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He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
There are plenty of pros and cons for which the merits of can be debated, but this one is just silly.
It would take some unforeseen event to derail the inevitable, a Spags return to Big Blue.
They had the worst D in NFL HISTORY. There is no way anybody can try to twist it to make it seem like his coaching was anything other then extremely terrible.
Here we go
Spag's Clip - ( New Window )
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In comment 12086861 phillygiant said:
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In comment 12086848 Riggies said:
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In comment 12086833 Toth029 said:
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He isn't the DC.
He's the secondary coach for a team that stunk at defending the pass.
On the heels of him DCing a historically awful defense in NO. Which came on the heels of him being a disaster as a HC.
His resume stinks at this point.
Hey Einsrein?
You might want to do your homework a bit as to why their looked the way they did.
We're you aware that the Ravens had 5 DB's on IR?
Funny, the injury excuse never had any traction for Fewell.
So talent isn't a factor in the league? You're meant to be able to coach up any schlub? The Ravens had two players signed in November from other teams practice squads as their RCB and Slot CB respectively. You can't just say shit secondary, shit coaching, talent has to play a part. They were down to fumes from a secondary which was essentially Webb and Smith and not much else to begin with.
The injuries to our CB's didn't cause us to be unable to defend the run or completely fail to defend any read option QB. If it was just pass coverage breakdowns (and we had plenty of that) then Fewell would have an excuse, but his entire defense was broken.
Yeah yeah, we get it. Spags had lots of injuries in his secondary, but Fewel/Guinta had even more injuries in their secondary and none of us want them back....