Interestingly as I watch the discussions regarding defensive coordinators unfold online, I see the following sorts of analysis:
1. Defensive ranking. Typically yards and not points.
2. Personnel. Typically 3-4 vs. 4-3.
I don't really see a lot of other discussion. Occasionally I see a post about avoiding the tampa 2, or references to being "an attacking" defense, defended very rarely by blitzes being thrown. I don't see a lot of discussion about the defensive strategies used and why.
For example - lots of praise for Spags being "aggressive" as a coordinator. Not lots of discussion about the types and/or percent of times a certain defense is used.
I know this information is available - we could find out the percent of time a DC candidate uses zone vs. man and what types in coverage. We could discuss how frequently a run blitz is utilized. We could even discuss how frequently a zone blitz is used.
It seemed to me that last year we had lots more discussions about offensive passing concepts and what systems the offenses came from (not simply by personnel). Discussion included how often they use tight ends, for example.
I don't see those discussions this year on the defensive side of the ball. I think it's because identifying that information is more work than most BBIers want to make. Am I correct?
Cue radar.....
In seriousness though, there's literally only a handful of people here who actually could diagnose exactly what a defense (or offense) is doing from a technical standpoint.
Then there's a decent amount who watch the game carefully and come to reasonable conclusions about what a defense (or offense) is doing, but they lack the technical knowledge to describe all of what they are seeing in real football terms. They can describe it in some football terms but on the whole, they're missing the required knowledge that coaches and players are used to. I'd put myself in this category.
Then you have the group mentioned first in my post. Unfortunately, that's a large, large loud portion of BBI.
I think Dorgan, Anish and a select few beyond them have kept up with today's Xs and Os, imo..At least as it appears evident by their posts
LOL.. of course you don't.
And this explains why you think aggressive defense is all that matters. Because it works in Madden.
Football's a hard sport to understand. Harder when you go for a quick explanation rather than true understanding.
Football's a hard sport to understand. Harder when you go for a quick explanation rather than true understanding.
Two of my favorites haha.
And lolJosh, you really don't think those madden formations helped you understand the game better, do you? Because holy shit.
I don't really see the same on the offensive side. It seems people know a lot more about offensive strategy than defensive strategy, or at least they feel more comfortable discussing it.
I'd really like it if those who understand better the different mindset of these candidates would weigh in on some questions I have.
For example - why would Jim Schwartz be ignored as a potential candidate? Some have stated the Buddy Ryan coaching tree and I'm okay with that answer, but I'm curious if there's more to it. Is there something else there?
I see that Buffalo was penalized more in the secondary than most other teams. They were among the league leaders in PI and Def. Holding calls. The Giants under Coughlin have tended to have very few calls of that type. Is that due to the way the players are coached? Is that a reason why Coughlin wouldn't be interested in Schwartz?
I've done a lot of work analyzing these trends to determine the correlation and I'm at the point that I'm wondering about causation and whether the mindset that Coughlin has could immediately rule out certain defenses that we as a forum like. It would be nice to see a discussion about the type of defense that Coughlin is into.
One thing I think is that he values mistake-free ball - comes from the philosophy that every defensive penalty increases the likelihood that the offense scores on that drive. The other school of thought is that if you foul continually they cannot call them all and eventually just accept that you are playing a more aggressive style of defense.
Is it realistic to think that the Giants could ever become aggressive under Coughlin like the Bills, Seahawks, or Cardinals have become?
I did. I think we differ on our definitions of basic knowledge in this case
Same with the special teams coach.
The eyes don't lie.
I've been watching the Giants for 25 years, not as long as some, I realize, but I really haven't a clue at what I'm looking at when I see game film.
I think most casual fans don't know anything more than the basic positions on both units and what their basic responsibilities are. What happens from there usually requires a bit of imagination or some information gathered from other sources and typically greatly misused.
Quote:
read what I wrote.
I did. I think we differ on our definitions of basic knowledge in this case
To think that Madden doesn't teach you anything about football is just foolish. If you've never played the game then I would understand scoffing at such a concept. But you'd be wrong...
Playing Madden Makes You Smarter...About Football - ( New Window )
If the offense runs on 3rd and 2 and fails, its easier to see the guard miss a block etc and know why it failed. But when receivers are running mad in the Giants secondary, is it because the CB missed an assignment? or was the safety supposed to come over and help. Was it a bad cal, or poor execution? etc. It just seems easier to place blame on a failed offensive play than on a failed defensive play.
Cover 2 and 3 in madden might tell you basic ideas of what those coverages might entail but the real basic knowledge that actual players need to be aware of in those coverages is way more intricate when matchups, personnel groupings, and zone responsibilities come into play.
Blitz schemes, again, you can glean the basic idea of a fire zone or corner blitz, or whatever but it's still missing the mark of what a player actually has to read and react to out on the field, especially when dealing with realities like not actually knowing if it's a run or pass post-snap, QB and defensive adjustments.
You're really not gaining basic knowledge of these concepts and responsibilities from madden.
If you think you are and or have in the past, we have nothing else to discuss.
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In comment 12094832 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
read what I wrote.
I did. I think we differ on our definitions of basic knowledge in this case
To think that Madden doesn't teach you anything about football is just foolish. If you've never played the game then I would understand scoffing at such a concept. But you'd be wrong... Playing Madden Makes You Smarter...About Football - ( New Window )
Oh. Well fuck me. My apologies for wasting our time....
I know little about coaching football.........but I know that the Giants, for the most part, have not played good defense under Fewell.
I might not know why, and I don't know how to fix it, but I can make a valid determination that it wasn't very good and hope for change at that coaching position.
for the advanced stuff it can be helpfull as long as you understand the limitations.
Cover 2 and 3 in madden might tell you basic ideas of what those coverages might entail but the real basic knowledge that actual players need to be aware of in those coverages is way more intricate when matchups, personnel groupings, and zone responsibilities come into play.
Blitz schemes, again, you can glean the basic idea of a fire zone or corner blitz, or whatever but it's still missing the mark of what a player actually has to read and react to out on the field, especially when dealing with realities like not actually knowing if it's a run or pass post-snap, QB and defensive adjustments.
You're really not gaining basic knowledge of these concepts and responsibilities from madden.
If you think you are and or have in the past, we have nothing else to discuss.
This is a bit of a douchey post. I've played organized football and Madden and there's definitely stuff one can learn from Madden.
Cover 2 and 3 in madden might tell you basic ideas of what those coverages might entail but the real basic knowledge that actual players need to be aware of in those coverages is way more intricate when matchups, personnel groupings, and zone responsibilities come into play.
Blitz schemes, again, you can glean the basic idea of a fire zone or corner blitz, or whatever but it's still missing the mark of what a player actually has to read and react to out on the field, especially when dealing with realities like not actually knowing if it's a run or pass post-snap, QB and defensive adjustments.
You're really not gaining basic knowledge of these concepts and responsibilities from madden.
If you think you are and or have in the past, we have nothing else to discuss.
LOL you basically just agreed with me that it provides the foundation to grow your knowledge-base from. You're now arguing with yourself as you already proved my point.
A Superb read. Learned a lot..Helped me discern things when I watched the NFL Rewind Coaches tape
2. Increased average TECHNIQUE + size + athleticism of a starting NFL O line as opposed to that of one of 299 or what have you college teams.
3. Effect of this on the DE position.
4. The idea of playing a DT at the zero at times, who what how.
5. increased use of -multiple types- of defensive alignments at the DL in the NFL
silly I said, let him jump gaps at times, he has the aa.
ditto "a player is too large to play DE"
what? too large? that is just silly.
The responsibilities and knowledge actually required to diagnose what happened in a play have so many different factors that even players and coaches are doing a lot of guesswork themselves when watching film.
In the end, I shouldn't have engaged. The best advice in this thread is picking up kirwan's book.
The responsibilities and knowledge actually required to diagnose what happened in a play have so many different factors that even players and coaches are doing a lot of guesswork themselves when watching film.
In the end, I shouldn't have engaged. The best advice in this thread is picking up kirwan's book.
Dude give it up. I'll throw in that I've also read Pat's book and agree that anyone who wants to understand more about the game should give it a read. And I know exactly what a shotgun draw and was also believed KG telegraphed his plays based on situation and formation so I'm not backing off that assessment of him. But using my comments from 2 years ago as another ridiculous reference to try and prove your inaccurate point is just more nonsense from you.
Ravens' secondary wasn't very good last year. BBI taught me that that was because of injuries. No wait it's because Spags sucks, no wait it's because the D coordinator sucks and he wasn't the D coordinator so it wasn't his fault.
Bills' D Line was really good. Great talent? Jim Schwartz? Pepper Johnson? Pick one, any one! ... and proceed to claim you know what the fuck you're talking about like you've actually done the research.
It's like statistics - you can make them say whatever the hell you want.
Talent.
Granted I can't say I understand minute differences in NFL talent as compared to high schoolers where it's pretty obvious to see who the good athletes are but I know we won the most games when we had the best talent. It's pretty easy to complete a pass and run the ball when you have a powerful line and vice versa, if you have dominant defensive linemen you can easily disrupt any offense. Can't say I ever had good cornerbacks so don't know about defense on the back end as much.
lining up the mike in the middle, take will off field to accomodate extra FS (3 in all)
of course, there is no rule that the DTs cannot shift around in this
'we always run to the right' on O....
like, change it up man
Define what 'telegraphing the play is'. Run vs. pass? Given the down/distance, a decently informed fan could probably call run or pass correctly 70%+ time. But being able to call routes is impossible and a level of absurd arrogance.
now, replace left End with a DT and left S (stud lb) with a true DE..as well as one LB with a S and you can see one iteration or one line up of a 5-1-5.
small s left stays (ss)
capital S becomes DE
and W will becomes small s (fs)
It's obvious from reading posts who has more knowledge, who has opinion, and who is an idiot and the non-expert fans like myself consider when deciding how much credibility to give each post.
Plus and I am as guilty of this as anyone, it doesn't need an expert to have an opinion or to be right.
Most of the discussions on D are:
1. Re-sign JPP or not and a sub category about why JPP hasn't duplicated his 2011 breakout season
2. Sign Suh?
3. Who should the DC be?
4. Biggest draft needs
5. What FA's should the Giants target
most of those don't require someone know X's and O's to have an opinion, I don't often see discussions about formations or play calling other than generalities which anyone can pick up from playing Madden.
On Spags:
Pros - aggressive, won here before, knows Coughlin.
Cons - defenses statistically (yds/points) poor elsewhere, player complaints when he left.
On Pepper:
Pros - years under BB, worked with Schwartz, nostalgia, winner, fiery personality, familiar with 4/3 and 3/4.
Cons - no promotions for years with BB, no experience as DC.
Is that really all we can glean to discuss these candidates? Do we not have anyone on BBI capable of describing the differences they might bring in defensive philosophy?
I know we don't get a lot of knowledgable posters here on offense, but I guarantee you we had more insight into possible offensive strategy when considering what McAdoo might bring to the table than what we're seeing on the defensive side.
the 5 fronts were great against the run and are great at generating pass rush, but...I am pushing the 5-1 since todays pass game makes the extra safety a must
What we do know is he worked under Belichick for 13 or so years and Belichick switched from a 3 - 4 to a 4 - 3 at least once during that time. And Belichick will tell you that base D means little and he has said in interviews before that they might be in their base D for a handful of plays during a game.
So, Pepper has quite possibly learned (if he's learned) about formations, game-planning, in-game adjustments, and play calling from the greatest coaching mind of this generation and possibly any generation.
But as for Pepper's philosophy I don't see how even the most knowledgeable fan can know that unless he's dug for a Pepper Johnson interview if one even exists.
BB passed Pepper over multiple times and not for household names so that's a question Pepper needs to address in the interviews, but from what I've heard from Pats fan friends (no clue how credible) is that Belichick loves Pepper, but had different reasons for hiring Mangini, Pees, and Patricia.
Patricia was an aeronautical engineering expert or something that requires a ridiculous amount of analysis and intelligence and Belichick decided he was a better fit because of his scientific approach to defense than Pepper most recently. I can see that with Belichick.
in the 3 fronts, its the 'linebackers' who 'swing' from one 'position' to another essentially the same types of guys
since that has not worked here, I have been proposing that the safeties become the 'swing' players...moving from cover and zone into run support.
better to ask a safety to tackle a runner than asking a DE or LB to cover anyone ever.
aaaand...with 5 true - a dominating pass rush and run defense
wiiiith man cover corner play (allows the safeties to be free to move up if needed)
If you follow the link below and sort by that stat for offenses, it's pretty interesting. Yup, pretty strongly correlated with winning. The Giants's offense was 12th in the league in that stat in 2014, up from 19th in 2013.
However if you flip that around and look at defense, the Giants were 29th in the league in yards allowed per pass attempt in 2014, WAY down from 2013, when the D was fourth in the NFL. (Those backup QBs helped, I'm sure.)
All of which does support what we seemed to be seeing. O was somewhat better, D was a lot worse.
I feel like I learn a lot from the Forum - but only if I'm selective about what I read and pay attention to.
NFL statistics - ( New Window )
That said, there are quite a few posters on bbi who know their stuff and it's really great to read and discuss.
That's why I love the sport so much. I've had the pleasure to play at a high level and coach some talented kids while installing some of my own stuff in the last few years. There are few things greater than putting in a package, prepping it for four days and watching it work on Saturdays and Sundays.
I'm thinking that someone more familiar with the game would have some way of guessing.
Put it this way - how did anyone have any way of knowing what type of offense McAdoo might bring here? There were little dozens of articles written about it and posts all over BBI discussing the G.B. offense prior to his coming here.
Can we not do the same with defense? What would we expect differently from a defensive standpoint?
Pepper has been in multiple defenses with New England and another new one this past year in Buffalo. Unless he's explicitly stated his defense philosophy (like I said before) I don't see how anyone can draw the same conclusions about Pepper they could about McAdoo.