they could have easily gone with a new face. Or Pepper Johnson. They did it last year with the OC. I think they went with what they believe is the best DC available.
It doesn't seem like desperation to me as much as laziness
If Spags is straight out the absolute best person to helm the defense with a group of not particularly talented players outside of the injured DBs, then ok. It's just odd that the best person to do it is the guy Coughlin hired nearly a decade ago when things were easier.
Not that I think Spags means instant success (Strahan, Tuck, Cofield, Pierce and Osi had something to do with that), but to me, this is a NO-BRAINER.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
Curious as to why they didn't interview Jim Schwartz
and proven success were likely huge factors. Would interviewing 20 more people make Raanan happy?
Personally I think the whole thing is overblown. We have a guy who the players loved that did the job well before. Yes personnel has changed, but maybe he helps change that back to what it was.
Hiring a fresh face doesn't prove anything.
I don't get it. What is Raanan solution besides a whining?
Would Ranaan like Coughlin extended, Gilbride to return, not bring back Spags, obtain Osi and Osi while begging Strahan to come out of retirement?
If keeping the existing head coach, the OC and placing a both a QB coach and DC which the HC is familiar with isn't stability, I don't what Raanan is looking for besides an opportunity to bitch.
Not that I think Spags means instant success (Strahan, Tuck, Cofield, Pierce and Osi had something to do with that), but to me, this is a NO-BRAINER.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
just because the past was great it does not imply the same results in the future. This was just a desperation, safe hire for the organization. Don't expect too much more unless we actually field some real linebackers.
RE: It doesn't seem like desperation to me as much as laziness
If Spags is straight out the absolute best person to helm the defense with a group of not particularly talented players outside of the injured DBs, then ok. It's just odd that the best person to do it is the guy Coughlin hired nearly a decade ago when things were easier.
They sure went through a bunch of interviews for this to be considered laziness.
I think Spags fills two requirements: Someone who won't leave again shortly if he has success, and someone who they know fits well here.
Jim Schwartz wants to be a HC again. Even the best case scenario for the giants means he's leaving town shortly and they have to do this dance again. But, they never even interviewed him, which means they probably don't care for his personality quirks.
We have no idea if Pepper can do the job, and jobs are at stake if the team doesn't perform well this season. Pepper was just unfortunate bad timing.
TC wasn't going to go through the process of switching to a 3-4, which can take time. They don't have time. That rules LeBeau out even though he's qualified and a legend.
just because the past was great it does not imply the same results in the future. This was just a desperation, safe hire for the organization. Don't expect too much more unless we actually field some real linebackers.
Not sure if you're familiar with the pool of LBs we 'featured' in 07-08...
They might have chosen to run with the known quantity
but I don't see a better 4-3 coaching fit out there right now, and Schwartz probably isn't well regarded by the entire league due to enough over the line play by his defenses.
he is self admittedly a bit of a cynic -- I for one hope that his opinion is totally slack wrong and am counting on the fact that his MO just naturally leads him to this dark place -- and he can't help but be this way -- it's totally in character for him : )
RE: It doesn't seem like desperation to me as much as laziness
If Spags is straight out the absolute best person to helm the defense with a group of not particularly talented players outside of the injured DBs, then ok. It's just odd that the best person to do it is the guy Coughlin hired nearly a decade ago when things were easier.
I don't think laziness is the right word ... but it is indeed the opposite of desperation ... conservative complacency ... TC knows exactly what he can expect from Spags ...
boisterous remarks with no real way to prove his own opinion. Look no further than here:
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
It is quite clear to me the Giants had a SHIT TON of respect for Spags, and were completely confident in his abilities as a DC while here. He and Coughlin CLEARLY work very well together.
Is he the best DC ever? Doubtful. Is he washed up at 55? Seriously??
I'll argue that in the position they are in now... shit is on. They have to get it right. This is Spags chance to redeem himself, in a place he clearly loved to coach and ALREADY experienced success.
Desperation MY ASS.
There's a big assumption in there, that if true, has some merit
He says that Mara and Tisch forced Coughlin down this path, and Coughlin is reaching for familiarity (possibly) over quality.
What we've heard is that dismissing Fewell was TC's decision. If that's true, then it's not desperation at all, he figures he's updating by bringing back a formerly successful DC.
If not, though - then he does have a point - instead of forcing TC to dump KG one year and then PF the next, maybe it was just time to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch. Ripping the bandaid off slowly isn't going to make it hurt any less.
They didn't want him gone when he left the first time
any slam dunk choices available. Every one of the discussed candidates had warts of one kind or another. Personally I would have taken Schwartz, but the personality/character issue was his wart. I liked Pepper a lot, but having never called plays, he's an unknown quantity and a risk in a situation where risk needs to be minimized. In their minds, Spags was the safest pick, although there are never any guaranties.
It make perfectly logical sense....TC's back is against the wall and he is in a situation where he can have a trusted ally with prove success take over an area of weakness...why wouldn't he do that? Heck why wouldn't any sane logical person.
if Coughlin forces him to run the Coughlin defense that every DC but Spags has since Copughlin has been the Giants coach. The only time the Giants played attacking aggressive defense under Coughlin was when Spags was DC. Hopefully Spags has the autonomy and authority to be even more aggressive.
TC doesn't do things out of desperation. His one goal is to put together a winner, and I'm sure he selected the guy he feels gives us the best chance to do so.
And how was bringing Sully back a bad thing? The guy did a great job with Eli when he was here before. Would it have been better to bring in someone Eli and TC had no relationship with?
The guy's reminding me of Francessa more and more...trying to be smarter than everyone else when he doesn't have a clue.
RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
but don't agree with his thought process very much except for one important thing. Tom Coughlin is desperate and he should be and we're desperate for a season that isn't over by Halloween.
If Spags fails to improve the D then we are no worse off than with Fewell. I say the arrow is pointing up. Get some improved
LB'ERS and a good Safety and watch what Spags can do.
boisterous remarks with no real way to prove his own opinion. Look no further than here:
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
Glad to see the forum back up and appreciate everyone reading. You're more than entitled to disagree with my opinions. That is why it's fun.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way? Giants have fairly new OC, new/old DC, long-time head coach, are coming off three straight seasons w/out playoffs and have mandate to make playoffs this year.
Hence the word "desperation" to try and make it work this season. It's a knock on the situation as a whole more than the Spags hiring. This was just the final inevitable move.
and proven success were likely huge factors. Would interviewing 20 more people make Raanan happy?
Personally I think the whole thing is overblown. We have a guy who the players loved that did the job well before. Yes personnel has changed, but maybe he helps change that back to what it was.
Hiring a fresh face doesn't prove anything.
Bingo!
You can hire a guy that was successful for you and you know what you're getting or you can take a chance with somebody and maybe end up with a dud.
Randee with the 2015 post of the year..I'll try to be brief; NO ONE tells TC how to use his mind, NO ONE..They might suggest(as after 2006 season, when he was asked to please cooperate more with the press) something, but he'd walk away before ANYONE pushes anything down his throat..11 years and people don't know TC by now?
RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way?
Steelers with LeBeau as someone mentioned in another thread.
I understand the viewpoint but I will never be sad that that Spags was the choice. He did a great job here over two years, with different pieces here each year. The whole organization and fan base were extremely sad to initially lose him. I fully believe he is better than Fewell, and TC is already very familiar and confident in him. I'll prefer to look at the positives on this one (which is not always the case for me... lol).
RE: RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Jordan, this is a parity league, where teams rise up out of nowhere..They have solid coaching and a QB..Teams ascend without too much overhaul all the time..
Do you really think we couldn't have competed this year if:
-DRC was at full speed? Prince was playing? Thurmond wasn't lost for the year? Will Hill didn't have to be let go? That all the miscommunication and fu*k-ups that went on throughout the year would not have occurred after a few games of getting used to one another..
-Beason was effectively not lost for the season(a sesamoid injury has nothing to do with being "injury-prone.") and paired with McClain providing at least an average LB..I won't include Kennard because he was injured much of the year and didn't come on late once he was healthy to get PT..
-Had Jennings not gone down at the 2-2 mark for, let's call it, the entire season, it wouldn't have helped the growth of the OL? He actually made the OL look better than it was..Cruz gone during the 6th game? Beckham lost for the first 4 games?
We will tweak and build some more in the draft as all teams do..We have Eli, not a bad place to start to compete..
Yes, all teams have injuries, NONE have come close to what we had, with our NFL-record setting IR players the last two years..These weren't "bottom-feeder" players that we lost for the year..These were core players..
As an aside, Unless Cruz had other structures repaired that we are unaware of(possible), then his straight up surgery will have him at 100% with very little loss of speed/quickness, imo
Give me reasonable health, that's all I ask and we will compete for the division..I am not a polyanna. Can't be..I went through 1964-1980..
But I thought Pepper Johnson made more sense in a lot of ways.
You can't always "go home," or go back, and the truth is Spags DOESN'T have the DL horses he did in 07. No new DC would, and Fewel didn't have them either.
Meanwhile, Umenyiora, Tuck and Kiwanuka are old (in football years) and in the twilight of their playing careers. None is likely to be playing for the Giants next season.
Two of them aren't even on the Giants and haven't been.
Jordan, I appreciate your coming over to address the article.
But most teams are "desperate" to get better if they haven't made the playoffs in a while. TC seems to have an excellent OC in place (a guy whom he hired w/o any OC experience) and now a DC he knows well after interviewing several candidates. To me that's not desperation, just selecting the guys he feels can do the best job for him. Time will tell if he's right, but having good players will do a lot more than coaching ability to determine the team's ultimate potential for success.
as usual, people are really overstating the talent on the 07-08 Ds
Particularly '08, when there was no Osi or Strahan and the starters included such immortals as Danny Clark, Chase Blackburn, James Butler and Michael Johnson.
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Do I think they'll go 15-1? No, although it would be nice (as long as a ring went with it). Do I think they can win and be a contender next season? Yes. The Steelers in '04 went from 15th in scoring under Tim Lewis, who we know all too well, to 1st under LeBeau with roughly the same defense. Can we expect such a meteoric rise? Again, no but I think it's fair to say that the average Giants fan sees the difference in what Spags can do vs. what we got out of Fewell for five years. Simply put, it's an upgrade and that's what we needed.
I think a better comparison would be the Cowboys. They missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and three straight 8-8 records. With the change from Kiffin to Marinelli they went from 26th in scoring to 15th. Perfect? No. Holes in the defense? Yes. But improvements attached with a more balanced offense took them from an average team to within a controversial call of making the NFC championship. Bringing back Spags is a good call.
and a new defensive approach. If it is Spags great, would have liked Dennis Allen, Fangio, Schwartz if the attitude was not an issue. Wasn't really into an older LeBeau.
That said, let's face it. No matter, they are desperate. This is it. And should be. (I still contend the move was to clean house of the whole coaching staff two years ago but here we go into year three) But Jordan is right about desperation, they are desperate. They need to be. It is just the desperation has nothing to do with Spags and has everything to do with this year being it.
I think its fair to point out that in New Orleans Sapgs defense set a record for points allowed...It happened, I think it is piss poor journalism not to point out that he followed bountygate as well though. That was a real shitstorm, rats in the house destroy morale, figurehead head coach, defensive players constantly questioned about it and it did not go away all season. That offense had terrible time of possession, the defense was always on the field and without key players. Face it most of the roster dollars on that team were on offense I believe, that would have been a tough call for any DC.
Is stupid... How are they desperate, because they went back to the guy, they were most successful with ? The Giants would've probably kept Spags, if he didn't leave on his own.
When Fewell was first released my gut reaction was spags.
I think He's more seasoned, and if anything should be a better DC then the last time around. Yes he failed as a HC but who cares. He is a coordinator who wants to be a coordinator.
And the Saints stint was a joke, and Rob Ryan couldn't do much with that defense this year either. I discount the entire Saints situation as bad timing.
Working with a top franchise like the Ravens, with talented players and coaching is a plus.
I don't think Spags can fix the talent issues on this Defense by himself. What he will do is be innovative with the Pass rush, he will simplify the coverage complexity, and he'll play a style as fans I think we enjoyed more in the past and will enjoy more again.
I agree with Eric - it would be nice to have Pepper on staff in some way shape or form. If they could even carve out assistant defensive coordinator or something would be cool.
the Giants should feel a little desperate. I should hope their actions speak of a little desperation.
Would NJ.Com treat the Giants any better if the Giants didn't make any moves this off-season? SOmething tells me they would be killing the Giants if they didn't treat this off-season with a little desperation.
Not that I think Spags means instant success (Strahan, Tuck, Cofield, Pierce and Osi had something to do with that), but to me, this is a NO-BRAINER.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
I don't dislike the Spags hiring, but I don't agree that this was a no brainer. They could easily have justified waiting for the 49ers HC decision, knowing if it wasn't Fangio he'd leave... which he did... and is now interviewing for DC in DC, which is not good for the Giants. There has been no more successful DC over the past four years than Fangio, with his defenses consistently finishing near the top of the league. That would have been a brainer. But, apparently he wasn't the right guy for TC. But to say the best DC in the league by relevant metrics was not an option, that the only brainer was Spags... I don't get it.
If we retain our DBs and they are healthy, Spags will produce a ton of QB pressure with creative blitzing and he has the intelligence to make changes during the game that Fewell lacked. This is a great hire and the perfect move for us. If our goal is to try to win next year with this defense, I believe Spags gives us the best chance by a large margin over any other DC on the market. I like Pepper and if the circumstance were different I would be more than willing to roll the dice, he fiery, I like him.
It's only a no brainer if you don't really follow the NFL overall
There are certainly DCs available with a more recent, better track record.
I'm not unhappy with the move, but you can say that Fangio and Schwartz and LeBeau were highly capable and qualified options.
They are highly qualified and capable options, TC has to win next year. he has personal experience with Spags, Spags can hit the ground running and I believe Spags will turn Moore into a weapon without exposing us to the run. I think the other candidates would be good, I think Sapgs will be perfect for us at this time. We shall see.
Questioning the hire is the smart call for any writer.
You don't generate many clicks by parroting the company line. Besides, considering the personnel deficiencies on defense, Spagnuolo could be in for a tough year no matter how brilliant he is, and no matter how much he has learned since 2012.
boisterous remarks with no real way to prove his own opinion. Look no further than here:
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
Glad to see the forum back up and appreciate everyone reading. You're more than entitled to disagree with my opinions. That is why it's fun.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way? Giants have fairly new OC, new/old DC, long-time head coach, are coming off three straight seasons w/out playoffs and have mandate to make playoffs this year.
Hence the word "desperation" to try and make it work this season. It's a knock on the situation as a whole more than the Spags hiring. This was just the final inevitable move.
That question isn't what your article is about. Regardless of who we pick as the DC, the exact scenario is the same. Again, I really don't know what your point is. TC IS back, McAdoo DID succeed and IS back, and Fewell IS gone. Your article starts off about this being a desperation hire then you pivot into how any team can win with this pattern of new coaches. Its very confusing.
I wasn't one of the people screaming for Spags to come back but now that it's done, I support it and am fully behind him and think he can do a good job.
Fangio, LeBeau, etc. were never going to be options. The personnel overhaul would take time and TC doesn't have that.
I don't think this is nearly as "desperate" as some writers seem to think. I think it's something that just lined up and made a lot of sense.
That said, he's got to hope his personnel situation is a bit better than what we finished the year with. That's not going to cut it.
We have to caution ourselves to be realistic and don't assume this will be 2007 version 2.0.
The Giants have excellent press / man to man corners. Spags seemed to thrive with that personnel while it appears Fewell wasted those abilities.
The Giants have had issues getting the right personnel on the field in obvious third down passing situations. Spags was able to utilize the "Four Aces" and other formations to maximize the DL pass rush. I'm hoping he'll find better way to utilize Moore, Hankins, Ayers and JPP (if he's still here).
The Giants have had mostly unimaginative, inefficient blitz packages under Fewell. Spags showed an ability to be very innovative in his blitz packages and should be able to better utilize Kennard and maybe some of the safeties and corners to improve our blitz effectiveness.
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Why would Spags be the right move if they were a contender but not otherwise?
sorry if slightly off topic but besides spagnuolo, what other defensive coordinators worked under johnson 43with the eagles, available now or not? i know the eagles defenses under johnson seemed to brutalize us, and spags was successful here in the nfc east before...
is the article he wrote deriding the Giants for not hiring Spags. be prepared for all possibilities.
Lots of head coaches put together a staff with familiarity (coaches they've worked with in the past) being part of the equation. IF TC were starting over again with a new team and brought in Spags as his DC, no one would give it a second thought.
1. was at ravens, who (still?) like to use 2x NT, which is very different from spags 4x skinny. both have worked at times, obviously, but 4x skinny may need to be updated, as, while we loved the effect at the time, it can be run on.
being able to do versions of both effectively, as well as many other set -ups, could really light this team on fire. you can bet he has his marching orders.
2. allow him to return to DL centric football. he will likely use a defensive back scheme that suits a big / dynamic front, and possibly a wider front as well.
3. hopefully shows that the teams draft crew will throw him a few bones come draft time.
loved the idea of Pepper also hopefully they can bring him in as well.
I actually thought this was more a case of being smart
You obviously don't want to bring in someone with a completely different view of what TC wants the Defense to be. At the same time you want as little change with regard to the logistics of a new DC coach. Sapgs is already extremely familiar with how TC runs things, so that cuts out a shit load of stuff that has to be learned and speeds the process of fixing this mess
This defense could not continue to go down the same path another year....change had to be made....I think the Giants are still in that win now attitude, rather than build for a future....they are taking short cuts, with personnel and coaches....will it pay off? Only time will tell....
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Reporter to reporter: Never read the comments. Never, never, ever. Because, well, you know. We all break that rule. We all regret it.
It seems perfectly sane to me for Coughlin to go back to guys he knows, trusts and has had success with for what is likely to be the end of his run with the Giants. If things go badly, the team will clean house in a year anyway. If things go well, then everybody will be happy and TC will get to go out more or less on his own terms.
It seems to me the danger is: What happens if they get to mediocrity? What if the defense improves to, say, 20th in the league -- better but still not good? What if they finish 2015, say, 9-7, just making the playoffs, then are one-and-done? Or 10-6 but missing the playoffs (like the Eagles in 2014)? Then what?
Tom C would come back. I find it unthinkable that Mara would can him after that.
They do not want to have to fire TC. They will look for every possible avenue before that. At least that part of your post seems very cut and dried to me.
Tom C would come back. I find it unthinkable that Mara would can him after that.
They do not want to have to fire TC. They will look for every possible avenue before that. At least that part of your post seems very cut and dried to me.
I guess. But that's the trap they've been in. Just good enough to save TC's job, almost never dominant. Those two Lombardis are worth it, but the regular-season mediocrity is getting old.
rather badly in St Louis and Nawlins, is that THIS time he's less likely to bolt after a good season or two. He has experienced "the grass is not always greener". Fangio jumped ship because he was not given an HC job? No way the Giants, especially TC, wanted to hire a DC hot to bolt after some success. IMO, I still see TC riding into the sunset together with Eli, and hopefully that's still a few years down the road.
I think media critics of the Spags choice are missing the point
Coughlin's in a 'win-or-else' year. It makes sense that he'd want a DC with whom he's comfortable working. That's one fewer variable. Players are more likely to buy in to the new defense, given that he's succeeded here previously. That's worth something too.
If you want Coughlin to be here beyond 2015, Spags is (on paper) the smart choice. Now, it may turn out that we simply don't have the talent to really compete, and one off-season isn't enough time to overhaul. In which case, probably everyone gets fired next January. But that doesn't invalidate the wisdom of hiring back Spags now.
comments that you should not be criticized for hiring someone you know especially if the person was successful and you did not want him to leave. We can't be certain regarding whether Coughlin was right to hire Spags, but I think he was the best option.
I like the Spags move... heck I never wanted him to leave in the first
place, but I can see how it looks that way. He was prob the choice even though they interviewed other candidates. He really hasn't had a good track record since he left.
I'm kind of baffled that they didn't even try to interview Fangio, Schwartz, Lebeau since they were easily the the best and most experienced DC's on the market. I mean not even an interview? I don't get it
...and just plain dumb. The Giants won a Superbowl with Spags. He coached a top 10 defense both his seasons with the team. It was a successful working and more importantly in sports a winning relationship. Was Spags the only good hire the organization could have made? No. Was he clearly a very good option? Definitely yes.
"Reeks of desperation"? Please. It may or may not work out great, but I don't think it "reeks" much less of "desperation." It is fair to say that TC is giving it one more try with other coaches he knows.
RE: RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
JordanRaanan said:
Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
First off, nice to see a reporter standing up and commenting here, welcome. Grabbing your last sentence here, I'd posit that given the state of the game and the depressed level of league-wide talent forced by the parity of the cap era, that for many teams it doesn't take much to be on the verge of contention. Given another piece on the OL and a rise to even league-average defense and this is a team capable of making a run given that it already has an elite QB, a staff that's been there, and one of the most dynamic young playmakers the league has seen in the last decade. We were bad this year, and yet hung with Dallas twice, who were a tough play away from the conference championship game. There's just not that much difference between the top teams and the next tier anymore.
is that when I look at the good teams, I don't see great teams - and it's a helluva lot easier to jump from bad to good than it is from bad to great. TC and Eli with a healthy team have proven all they have to do is get in it to have a great shot to win it.
and stop wondering why the Giants went with Spags. The comments about why are really amazing. It is fairly simple..
1. He had success here already.
2. Although it was a disaster in St Louis, he potentially could replace TC down the road
3. There is familiarity and a comfort level between TC and Spags and the rest of the organization.
4. The Giants also know they would get fan support. (for the most part).
5. With Spags being available, if the Giants went in another direction (ie Pepper) and the defense was garbage again, then all you would hear is WE COULD HAVE HAD SPAGS. From a fan standpoint, they HAD to hire him especially if it eventually got out that he wanted the job. We would have killed the Giants for not hiring him.
Now, regarding the title of the NJ.com article. You bet your ass the Giants are desperate. This team sucks right now. The fans and BBI are probably more desperate.
RE: RE: RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
JordanRaanan said:
Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
First off, nice to see a reporter standing up and commenting here, welcome. Grabbing your last sentence here, I'd posit that given the state of the game and the depressed level of league-wide talent forced by the parity of the cap era, that for many teams it doesn't take much to be on the verge of contention. Given another piece on the OL and a rise to even league-average defense and this is a team capable of making a run given that it already has an elite QB, a staff that's been there, and one of the most dynamic young playmakers the league has seen in the last decade. We were bad this year, and yet hung with Dallas twice, who were a tough play away from the conference championship game. There's just not that much difference between the top teams and the next tier anymore.
Not only is the arrow pointing up we can make the playoffs next year and maybe more. We now have 2 coordinators who give the personnel a much better chance to succeed.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Personally I like hiring Spagnuolo a second time. Obviously the author doesn't care for it....but "reeks of desperation" is ridiculous. Why in the world is hiring someone you had success with previously a desperate move. Okay, maybe the old "you can't go home again" adage has some validity....but this is far from a desperate move. Trying my best to be objective I'd call it the common sense move.
and not cloudy at this point. Lest we forget, Spag's bombed in Cleveland when he left the Giants, filled in for the hapless Saints when Peyton was suspended and wound-up as an assistant DC. I understand how reluctant Mara is to fire a (2) time SB winning HC but, I think the writing is on the wall. That creates a very tenuous situation which requires incredible foresight which, I believe, Mara has shown. I believe the situation is TC leaves at the end of this season, they have a 2nd year OC and a new DC. Any new HC would want his choice of coaching staff unless he comes up from within. I feel Spags (if he has success) or McAdoo will be the HC next year. It appears to be the only logical option. JMHO.
Unless TC unexpectedly vacates the HC position in 2015
we have to remember that the situation will be very different when he does.
If Spags fixes the defense, his credentials will be burnished and he will be a legitimate candidate for HC whenever TC steps down -- which presumably won't be soon, since a fixed defense would extend his tenure.
If Spags doesn't fix the defense, there'll probably be a complete changing of the guard in a year anyway.
And we have all of the 2015 season to see how McAdoo's offense does. That could go either way. Again, if he succeeds, he's probably a HC candidate.
but I think it's more than fair to question the competence of any coach who has been bad since the lockout and probably unable to adjust to the new CBA. The Giants head coach might be #1 on that list. Spags might have the same problem.
but I think it's more than fair to question the competence of any coach who has been bad since the lockout and probably unable to adjust to the new CBA. The Giants head coach might be #1 on that list. Spags might have the same problem.
Huh? Are you talking limitation on practice sessions? Instead of making us guess, can you expound a bit? Thanks.
RE: RE: RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Do I think they'll go 15-1? No, although it would be nice (as long as a ring went with it). Do I think they can win and be a contender next season? Yes. The Steelers in '04 went from 15th in scoring under Tim Lewis, who we know all too well, to 1st under LeBeau with roughly the same defense. Can we expect such a meteoric rise? Again, no but I think it's fair to say that the average Giants fan sees the difference in what Spags can do vs. what we got out of Fewell for five years. Simply put, it's an upgrade and that's what we needed.
I think a better comparison would be the Cowboys. They missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and three straight 8-8 records. With the change from Kiffin to Marinelli they went from 26th in scoring to 15th. Perfect? No. Holes in the defense? Yes. But improvements attached with a more balanced offense took them from an average team to within a controversial call of making the NFC championship. Bringing back Spags is a good call.
+1. I am a bit higher than most on our core talent on D and I think we will see that talent translate on the field in a much better Spags system. Couple that with a coordinator on the other side of the ball who has a much more user-friendly offense, I think we are in for a big rebound next year.
RE: Questioning the hire is the smart call for any writer.
You don't generate many clicks by parroting the company line. Besides, considering the personnel deficiencies on defense, Spagnuolo could be in for a tough year no matter how brilliant he is, and no matter how much he has learned since 2012.
We weren't talent deficient as much as we were system deficient.
but I think it's more than fair to question the competence of any coach who has been bad since the lockout and probably unable to adjust to the new CBA. The Giants head coach might be #1 on that list. Spags might have the same problem.
Huh? Are you talking limitation on practice sessions? Instead of making us guess, can you expound a bit? Thanks.
When you run a much more complex offense and defense like we did under Gilbride and Fewell, the lesser practice time hits you 2X as hard.
Both Spags system and MacAdoo's system are much easier to grasp.
that this was a case of the team desperatly looking to the past instead of their thinking that Spags was the best option. I don't always agree with Mara/Reese/Coughlin, but I know that they aren't stupid.
so while it's arguable and defensible on the performance measures that Vic Fangio would have been a more justifiable selection from a perspective of consistently superior performance as DC over the past 4 years, the Giants defensive players, the HC, the owners, the fans... they know what he did here before. It was magical, and improbable. Are they looking to recapture lightning in a bottle? Maybe. Maybe the unspoken message with Spags is you can believe in his system, not on blind faith, but because he asked a Giants defensive unit to believe in the system before, and everyone knows the rest of the story. Sure, different players, different times under different rules... everything's different. Can't be turned around. 29th is just too bad to get better too soon. Maybe. But the players see Spags over there on the sidelines, and he did it before...
so while it's arguable and defensible on the performance measures that Vic Fangio would have been a more justifiable selection from a perspective of consistently superior performance as DC over the past 4 years, the Giants defensive players, the HC, the owners, the fans... they know what he did here before. It was magical, and improbable. Are they looking to recapture lightning in a bottle? Maybe. Maybe the unspoken message with Spags is you can believe in his system, not on blind faith, but because he asked a Giants defensive unit to believe in the system before, and everyone knows the rest of the story. Sure, different players, different times under different rules... everything's different. Can't be turned around. 29th is just too bad to get better too soon. Maybe. But the players see Spags over there on the sidelines, and he did it before...
I tend to believe his system really fits the players Reese has a propensity to draft and bring in via FA. Big, fast, athletic these guys should be attacking not playing too much read and react and complicated zone switching.
It will be exciting to see what he does round 2. I think Reese will fortify around the D core with a couple more nice pieces too.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
Personality.
The same reason they wouldn't hire either of the Ryan brothers or gregg williams.
Personally I think the whole thing is overblown. We have a guy who the players loved that did the job well before. Yes personnel has changed, but maybe he helps change that back to what it was.
Hiring a fresh face doesn't prove anything.
If keeping the existing head coach, the OC and placing a both a QB coach and DC which the HC is familiar with isn't stability, I don't what Raanan is looking for besides an opportunity to bitch.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
just because the past was great it does not imply the same results in the future. This was just a desperation, safe hire for the organization. Don't expect too much more unless we actually field some real linebackers.
They sure went through a bunch of interviews for this to be considered laziness.
I think Spags fills two requirements: Someone who won't leave again shortly if he has success, and someone who they know fits well here.
Jim Schwartz wants to be a HC again. Even the best case scenario for the giants means he's leaving town shortly and they have to do this dance again. But, they never even interviewed him, which means they probably don't care for his personality quirks.
We have no idea if Pepper can do the job, and jobs are at stake if the team doesn't perform well this season. Pepper was just unfortunate bad timing.
TC wasn't going to go through the process of switching to a 3-4, which can take time. They don't have time. That rules LeBeau out even though he's qualified and a legend.
just because the past was great it does not imply the same results in the future. This was just a desperation, safe hire for the organization. Don't expect too much more unless we actually field some real linebackers.
Not sure if you're familiar with the pool of LBs we 'featured' in 07-08...
I don't think laziness is the right word ... but it is indeed the opposite of desperation ... conservative complacency ... TC knows exactly what he can expect from Spags ...
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
Is he the best DC ever? Doubtful. Is he washed up at 55? Seriously??
I'll argue that in the position they are in now... shit is on. They have to get it right. This is Spags chance to redeem himself, in a place he clearly loved to coach and ALREADY experienced success.
Desperation MY ASS.
What we've heard is that dismissing Fewell was TC's decision. If that's true, then it's not desperation at all, he figures he's updating by bringing back a formerly successful DC.
If not, though - then he does have a point - instead of forcing TC to dump KG one year and then PF the next, maybe it was just time to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch. Ripping the bandaid off slowly isn't going to make it hurt any less.
The only thing sounding like "desperation" is the article.
And how was bringing Sully back a bad thing? The guy did a great job with Eli when he was here before. Would it have been better to bring in someone Eli and TC had no relationship with?
The guy's reminding me of Francessa more and more...trying to be smarter than everyone else when he doesn't have a clue.
Ha! That's right... forgot about that!
LB'ERS and a good Safety and watch what Spags can do.
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
Glad to see the forum back up and appreciate everyone reading. You're more than entitled to disagree with my opinions. That is why it's fun.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way? Giants have fairly new OC, new/old DC, long-time head coach, are coming off three straight seasons w/out playoffs and have mandate to make playoffs this year.
Hence the word "desperation" to try and make it work this season. It's a knock on the situation as a whole more than the Spags hiring. This was just the final inevitable move.
Personally, I like the move. If his defense has indeed changed, I hope he keeps the attack mentality
Personally I think the whole thing is overblown. We have a guy who the players loved that did the job well before. Yes personnel has changed, but maybe he helps change that back to what it was.
Hiring a fresh face doesn't prove anything.
Bingo!
You can hire a guy that was successful for you and you know what you're getting or you can take a chance with somebody and maybe end up with a dud.
Randee with the 2015 post of the year..I'll try to be brief; NO ONE tells TC how to use his mind, NO ONE..They might suggest(as after 2006 season, when he was asked to please cooperate more with the press) something, but he'd walk away before ANYONE pushes anything down his throat..11 years and people don't know TC by now?
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way?
Steelers with LeBeau as someone mentioned in another thread.
I understand the viewpoint but I will never be sad that that Spags was the choice. He did a great job here over two years, with different pieces here each year. The whole organization and fan base were extremely sad to initially lose him. I fully believe he is better than Fewell, and TC is already very familiar and confident in him. I'll prefer to look at the positives on this one (which is not always the case for me... lol).
Not sure I'd categorize Steve Spagnuolo as the coach you'd want to bring in to put your team over the top either. The truth is somewhere in between.
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left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Jordan, this is a parity league, where teams rise up out of nowhere..They have solid coaching and a QB..Teams ascend without too much overhaul all the time..
Do you really think we couldn't have competed this year if:
-DRC was at full speed? Prince was playing? Thurmond wasn't lost for the year? Will Hill didn't have to be let go? That all the miscommunication and fu*k-ups that went on throughout the year would not have occurred after a few games of getting used to one another..
-Beason was effectively not lost for the season(a sesamoid injury has nothing to do with being "injury-prone.") and paired with McClain providing at least an average LB..I won't include Kennard because he was injured much of the year and didn't come on late once he was healthy to get PT..
-Had Jennings not gone down at the 2-2 mark for, let's call it, the entire season, it wouldn't have helped the growth of the OL? He actually made the OL look better than it was..Cruz gone during the 6th game? Beckham lost for the first 4 games?
We will tweak and build some more in the draft as all teams do..We have Eli, not a bad place to start to compete..
Yes, all teams have injuries, NONE have come close to what we had, with our NFL-record setting IR players the last two years..These weren't "bottom-feeder" players that we lost for the year..These were core players..
As an aside, Unless Cruz had other structures repaired that we are unaware of(possible), then his straight up surgery will have him at 100% with very little loss of speed/quickness, imo
Give me reasonable health, that's all I ask and we will compete for the division..I am not a polyanna. Can't be..I went through 1964-1980..
You can't always "go home," or go back, and the truth is Spags DOESN'T have the DL horses he did in 07. No new DC would, and Fewel didn't have them either.
Two of them aren't even on the Giants and haven't been.
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left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Do I think they'll go 15-1? No, although it would be nice (as long as a ring went with it). Do I think they can win and be a contender next season? Yes. The Steelers in '04 went from 15th in scoring under Tim Lewis, who we know all too well, to 1st under LeBeau with roughly the same defense. Can we expect such a meteoric rise? Again, no but I think it's fair to say that the average Giants fan sees the difference in what Spags can do vs. what we got out of Fewell for five years. Simply put, it's an upgrade and that's what we needed.
I think a better comparison would be the Cowboys. They missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and three straight 8-8 records. With the change from Kiffin to Marinelli they went from 26th in scoring to 15th. Perfect? No. Holes in the defense? Yes. But improvements attached with a more balanced offense took them from an average team to within a controversial call of making the NFC championship. Bringing back Spags is a good call.
That said, let's face it. No matter, they are desperate. This is it. And should be. (I still contend the move was to clean house of the whole coaching staff two years ago but here we go into year three) But Jordan is right about desperation, they are desperate. They need to be. It is just the desperation has nothing to do with Spags and has everything to do with this year being it.
When Fewell was first released my gut reaction was spags.
I think He's more seasoned, and if anything should be a better DC then the last time around. Yes he failed as a HC but who cares. He is a coordinator who wants to be a coordinator.
And the Saints stint was a joke, and Rob Ryan couldn't do much with that defense this year either. I discount the entire Saints situation as bad timing.
Working with a top franchise like the Ravens, with talented players and coaching is a plus.
I don't think Spags can fix the talent issues on this Defense by himself. What he will do is be innovative with the Pass rush, he will simplify the coverage complexity, and he'll play a style as fans I think we enjoyed more in the past and will enjoy more again.
I agree with Eric - it would be nice to have Pepper on staff in some way shape or form. If they could even carve out assistant defensive coordinator or something would be cool.
Would NJ.Com treat the Giants any better if the Giants didn't make any moves this off-season? SOmething tells me they would be killing the Giants if they didn't treat this off-season with a little desperation.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
I don't dislike the Spags hiring, but I don't agree that this was a no brainer. They could easily have justified waiting for the 49ers HC decision, knowing if it wasn't Fangio he'd leave... which he did... and is now interviewing for DC in DC, which is not good for the Giants. There has been no more successful DC over the past four years than Fangio, with his defenses consistently finishing near the top of the league. That would have been a brainer. But, apparently he wasn't the right guy for TC. But to say the best DC in the league by relevant metrics was not an option, that the only brainer was Spags... I don't get it.
I'm not unhappy with the move, but you can say that Fangio and Schwartz and LeBeau were highly capable and qualified options.
I'm not unhappy with the move, but you can say that Fangio and Schwartz and LeBeau were highly capable and qualified options.
They are highly qualified and capable options, TC has to win next year. he has personal experience with Spags, Spags can hit the ground running and I believe Spags will turn Moore into a weapon without exposing us to the run. I think the other candidates would be good, I think Sapgs will be perfect for us at this time. We shall see.
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boisterous remarks with no real way to prove his own opinion. Look no further than here:
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
Glad to see the forum back up and appreciate everyone reading. You're more than entitled to disagree with my opinions. That is why it's fun.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way? Giants have fairly new OC, new/old DC, long-time head coach, are coming off three straight seasons w/out playoffs and have mandate to make playoffs this year.
Hence the word "desperation" to try and make it work this season. It's a knock on the situation as a whole more than the Spags hiring. This was just the final inevitable move.
That question isn't what your article is about. Regardless of who we pick as the DC, the exact scenario is the same. Again, I really don't know what your point is. TC IS back, McAdoo DID succeed and IS back, and Fewell IS gone. Your article starts off about this being a desperation hire then you pivot into how any team can win with this pattern of new coaches. Its very confusing.
Fangio, LeBeau, etc. were never going to be options. The personnel overhaul would take time and TC doesn't have that.
I don't think this is nearly as "desperate" as some writers seem to think. I think it's something that just lined up and made a lot of sense.
That said, he's got to hope his personnel situation is a bit better than what we finished the year with. That's not going to cut it.
The Giants have excellent press / man to man corners. Spags seemed to thrive with that personnel while it appears Fewell wasted those abilities.
The Giants have had issues getting the right personnel on the field in obvious third down passing situations. Spags was able to utilize the "Four Aces" and other formations to maximize the DL pass rush. I'm hoping he'll find better way to utilize Moore, Hankins, Ayers and JPP (if he's still here).
The Giants have had mostly unimaginative, inefficient blitz packages under Fewell. Spags showed an ability to be very innovative in his blitz packages and should be able to better utilize Kennard and maybe some of the safeties and corners to improve our blitz effectiveness.
I'm optimistic.
Why isn't it a good thing that the Giants were able to get him back?
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left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Why would Spags be the right move if they were a contender but not otherwise?
Its not like we swung and missed on a top DC on the market and had to relegate to option 3 or 4. Atlteast to my knowledge this didn't happen.
Maybe he doesn't work out. But i'm fully confident that our FO thinks he can get the job done.
Lots of head coaches put together a staff with familiarity (coaches they've worked with in the past) being part of the equation. IF TC were starting over again with a new team and brought in Spags as his DC, no one would give it a second thought.
being able to do versions of both effectively, as well as many other set -ups, could really light this team on fire. you can bet he has his marching orders.
2. allow him to return to DL centric football. he will likely use a defensive back scheme that suits a big / dynamic front, and possibly a wider front as well.
3. hopefully shows that the teams draft crew will throw him a few bones come draft time.
loved the idea of Pepper also hopefully they can bring him in as well.
You obviously don't want to bring in someone with a completely different view of what TC wants the Defense to be. At the same time you want as little change with regard to the logistics of a new DC coach. Sapgs is already extremely familiar with how TC runs things, so that cuts out a shit load of stuff that has to be learned and speeds the process of fixing this mess
This defense could not continue to go down the same path another year....change had to be made....I think the Giants are still in that win now attitude, rather than build for a future....they are taking short cuts, with personnel and coaches....will it pay off? Only time will tell....
Reporter to reporter: Never read the comments. Never, never, ever. Because, well, you know. We all break that rule. We all regret it.
It seems perfectly sane to me for Coughlin to go back to guys he knows, trusts and has had success with for what is likely to be the end of his run with the Giants. If things go badly, the team will clean house in a year anyway. If things go well, then everybody will be happy and TC will get to go out more or less on his own terms.
It seems to me the danger is: What happens if they get to mediocrity? What if the defense improves to, say, 20th in the league -- better but still not good? What if they finish 2015, say, 9-7, just making the playoffs, then are one-and-done? Or 10-6 but missing the playoffs (like the Eagles in 2014)? Then what?
They do not want to have to fire TC. They will look for every possible avenue before that. At least that part of your post seems very cut and dried to me.
They do not want to have to fire TC. They will look for every possible avenue before that. At least that part of your post seems very cut and dried to me.
If you want Coughlin to be here beyond 2015, Spags is (on paper) the smart choice. Now, it may turn out that we simply don't have the talent to really compete, and one off-season isn't enough time to overhaul. In which case, probably everyone gets fired next January. But that doesn't invalidate the wisdom of hiring back Spags now.
I'm kind of baffled that they didn't even try to interview Fangio, Schwartz, Lebeau since they were easily the the best and most experienced DC's on the market. I mean not even an interview? I don't get it
Is the talent there? We'll see.
I just hope for fewer uncontested long passes.
"Reeks of desperation"? Please. It may or may not work out great, but I don't think it "reeks" much less of "desperation." It is fair to say that TC is giving it one more try with other coaches he knows.
Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
First off, nice to see a reporter standing up and commenting here, welcome. Grabbing your last sentence here, I'd posit that given the state of the game and the depressed level of league-wide talent forced by the parity of the cap era, that for many teams it doesn't take much to be on the verge of contention. Given another piece on the OL and a rise to even league-average defense and this is a team capable of making a run given that it already has an elite QB, a staff that's been there, and one of the most dynamic young playmakers the league has seen in the last decade. We were bad this year, and yet hung with Dallas twice, who were a tough play away from the conference championship game. There's just not that much difference between the top teams and the next tier anymore.
1. He had success here already.
2. Although it was a disaster in St Louis, he potentially could replace TC down the road
3. There is familiarity and a comfort level between TC and Spags and the rest of the organization.
4. The Giants also know they would get fan support. (for the most part).
5. With Spags being available, if the Giants went in another direction (ie Pepper) and the defense was garbage again, then all you would hear is WE COULD HAVE HAD SPAGS. From a fan standpoint, they HAD to hire him especially if it eventually got out that he wanted the job. We would have killed the Giants for not hiring him.
Now, regarding the title of the NJ.com article. You bet your ass the Giants are desperate. This team sucks right now. The fans and BBI are probably more desperate.
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JordanRaanan said:
Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
First off, nice to see a reporter standing up and commenting here, welcome. Grabbing your last sentence here, I'd posit that given the state of the game and the depressed level of league-wide talent forced by the parity of the cap era, that for many teams it doesn't take much to be on the verge of contention. Given another piece on the OL and a rise to even league-average defense and this is a team capable of making a run given that it already has an elite QB, a staff that's been there, and one of the most dynamic young playmakers the league has seen in the last decade. We were bad this year, and yet hung with Dallas twice, who were a tough play away from the conference championship game. There's just not that much difference between the top teams and the next tier anymore.
Not only is the arrow pointing up we can make the playoffs next year and maybe more. We now have 2 coordinators who give the personnel a much better chance to succeed.
If Spags fixes the defense, his credentials will be burnished and he will be a legitimate candidate for HC whenever TC steps down -- which presumably won't be soon, since a fixed defense would extend his tenure.
If Spags doesn't fix the defense, there'll probably be a complete changing of the guard in a year anyway.
And we have all of the 2015 season to see how McAdoo's offense does. That could go either way. Again, if he succeeds, he's probably a HC candidate.
Huh? Are you talking limitation on practice sessions? Instead of making us guess, can you expound a bit? Thanks.
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In comment 12096475 sjnyfan said:
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left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Do I think they'll go 15-1? No, although it would be nice (as long as a ring went with it). Do I think they can win and be a contender next season? Yes. The Steelers in '04 went from 15th in scoring under Tim Lewis, who we know all too well, to 1st under LeBeau with roughly the same defense. Can we expect such a meteoric rise? Again, no but I think it's fair to say that the average Giants fan sees the difference in what Spags can do vs. what we got out of Fewell for five years. Simply put, it's an upgrade and that's what we needed.
I think a better comparison would be the Cowboys. They missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and three straight 8-8 records. With the change from Kiffin to Marinelli they went from 26th in scoring to 15th. Perfect? No. Holes in the defense? Yes. But improvements attached with a more balanced offense took them from an average team to within a controversial call of making the NFC championship. Bringing back Spags is a good call.
+1. I am a bit higher than most on our core talent on D and I think we will see that talent translate on the field in a much better Spags system. Couple that with a coordinator on the other side of the ball who has a much more user-friendly offense, I think we are in for a big rebound next year.
We weren't talent deficient as much as we were system deficient.
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but I think it's more than fair to question the competence of any coach who has been bad since the lockout and probably unable to adjust to the new CBA. The Giants head coach might be #1 on that list. Spags might have the same problem.
Huh? Are you talking limitation on practice sessions? Instead of making us guess, can you expound a bit? Thanks.
When you run a much more complex offense and defense like we did under Gilbride and Fewell, the lesser practice time hits you 2X as hard.
Both Spags system and MacAdoo's system are much easier to grasp.
I tend to believe his system really fits the players Reese has a propensity to draft and bring in via FA. Big, fast, athletic these guys should be attacking not playing too much read and react and complicated zone switching.
It will be exciting to see what he does round 2. I think Reese will fortify around the D core with a couple more nice pieces too.
Fuck us all.