they could have easily gone with a new face. Or Pepper Johnson. They did it last year with the OC. I think they went with what they believe is the best DC available.
It doesn't seem like desperation to me as much as laziness
If Spags is straight out the absolute best person to helm the defense with a group of not particularly talented players outside of the injured DBs, then ok. It's just odd that the best person to do it is the guy Coughlin hired nearly a decade ago when things were easier.
Not that I think Spags means instant success (Strahan, Tuck, Cofield, Pierce and Osi had something to do with that), but to me, this is a NO-BRAINER.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
Curious as to why they didn't interview Jim Schwartz
and proven success were likely huge factors. Would interviewing 20 more people make Raanan happy?
Personally I think the whole thing is overblown. We have a guy who the players loved that did the job well before. Yes personnel has changed, but maybe he helps change that back to what it was.
Hiring a fresh face doesn't prove anything.
I don't get it. What is Raanan solution besides a whining?
Would Ranaan like Coughlin extended, Gilbride to return, not bring back Spags, obtain Osi and Osi while begging Strahan to come out of retirement?
If keeping the existing head coach, the OC and placing a both a QB coach and DC which the HC is familiar with isn't stability, I don't what Raanan is looking for besides an opportunity to bitch.
Not that I think Spags means instant success (Strahan, Tuck, Cofield, Pierce and Osi had something to do with that), but to me, this is a NO-BRAINER.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
just because the past was great it does not imply the same results in the future. This was just a desperation, safe hire for the organization. Don't expect too much more unless we actually field some real linebackers.
RE: It doesn't seem like desperation to me as much as laziness
If Spags is straight out the absolute best person to helm the defense with a group of not particularly talented players outside of the injured DBs, then ok. It's just odd that the best person to do it is the guy Coughlin hired nearly a decade ago when things were easier.
They sure went through a bunch of interviews for this to be considered laziness.
I think Spags fills two requirements: Someone who won't leave again shortly if he has success, and someone who they know fits well here.
Jim Schwartz wants to be a HC again. Even the best case scenario for the giants means he's leaving town shortly and they have to do this dance again. But, they never even interviewed him, which means they probably don't care for his personality quirks.
We have no idea if Pepper can do the job, and jobs are at stake if the team doesn't perform well this season. Pepper was just unfortunate bad timing.
TC wasn't going to go through the process of switching to a 3-4, which can take time. They don't have time. That rules LeBeau out even though he's qualified and a legend.
just because the past was great it does not imply the same results in the future. This was just a desperation, safe hire for the organization. Don't expect too much more unless we actually field some real linebackers.
Not sure if you're familiar with the pool of LBs we 'featured' in 07-08...
They might have chosen to run with the known quantity
but I don't see a better 4-3 coaching fit out there right now, and Schwartz probably isn't well regarded by the entire league due to enough over the line play by his defenses.
he is self admittedly a bit of a cynic -- I for one hope that his opinion is totally slack wrong and am counting on the fact that his MO just naturally leads him to this dark place -- and he can't help but be this way -- it's totally in character for him : )
RE: It doesn't seem like desperation to me as much as laziness
If Spags is straight out the absolute best person to helm the defense with a group of not particularly talented players outside of the injured DBs, then ok. It's just odd that the best person to do it is the guy Coughlin hired nearly a decade ago when things were easier.
I don't think laziness is the right word ... but it is indeed the opposite of desperation ... conservative complacency ... TC knows exactly what he can expect from Spags ...
boisterous remarks with no real way to prove his own opinion. Look no further than here:
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
It is quite clear to me the Giants had a SHIT TON of respect for Spags, and were completely confident in his abilities as a DC while here. He and Coughlin CLEARLY work very well together.
Is he the best DC ever? Doubtful. Is he washed up at 55? Seriously??
I'll argue that in the position they are in now... shit is on. They have to get it right. This is Spags chance to redeem himself, in a place he clearly loved to coach and ALREADY experienced success.
Desperation MY ASS.
There's a big assumption in there, that if true, has some merit
He says that Mara and Tisch forced Coughlin down this path, and Coughlin is reaching for familiarity (possibly) over quality.
What we've heard is that dismissing Fewell was TC's decision. If that's true, then it's not desperation at all, he figures he's updating by bringing back a formerly successful DC.
If not, though - then he does have a point - instead of forcing TC to dump KG one year and then PF the next, maybe it was just time to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch. Ripping the bandaid off slowly isn't going to make it hurt any less.
They didn't want him gone when he left the first time
any slam dunk choices available. Every one of the discussed candidates had warts of one kind or another. Personally I would have taken Schwartz, but the personality/character issue was his wart. I liked Pepper a lot, but having never called plays, he's an unknown quantity and a risk in a situation where risk needs to be minimized. In their minds, Spags was the safest pick, although there are never any guaranties.
It make perfectly logical sense....TC's back is against the wall and he is in a situation where he can have a trusted ally with prove success take over an area of weakness...why wouldn't he do that? Heck why wouldn't any sane logical person.
if Coughlin forces him to run the Coughlin defense that every DC but Spags has since Copughlin has been the Giants coach. The only time the Giants played attacking aggressive defense under Coughlin was when Spags was DC. Hopefully Spags has the autonomy and authority to be even more aggressive.
TC doesn't do things out of desperation. His one goal is to put together a winner, and I'm sure he selected the guy he feels gives us the best chance to do so.
And how was bringing Sully back a bad thing? The guy did a great job with Eli when he was here before. Would it have been better to bring in someone Eli and TC had no relationship with?
The guy's reminding me of Francessa more and more...trying to be smarter than everyone else when he doesn't have a clue.
RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
but don't agree with his thought process very much except for one important thing. Tom Coughlin is desperate and he should be and we're desperate for a season that isn't over by Halloween.
If Spags fails to improve the D then we are no worse off than with Fewell. I say the arrow is pointing up. Get some improved
LB'ERS and a good Safety and watch what Spags can do.
boisterous remarks with no real way to prove his own opinion. Look no further than here:
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
Glad to see the forum back up and appreciate everyone reading. You're more than entitled to disagree with my opinions. That is why it's fun.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way? Giants have fairly new OC, new/old DC, long-time head coach, are coming off three straight seasons w/out playoffs and have mandate to make playoffs this year.
Hence the word "desperation" to try and make it work this season. It's a knock on the situation as a whole more than the Spags hiring. This was just the final inevitable move.
and proven success were likely huge factors. Would interviewing 20 more people make Raanan happy?
Personally I think the whole thing is overblown. We have a guy who the players loved that did the job well before. Yes personnel has changed, but maybe he helps change that back to what it was.
Hiring a fresh face doesn't prove anything.
Bingo!
You can hire a guy that was successful for you and you know what you're getting or you can take a chance with somebody and maybe end up with a dud.
Randee with the 2015 post of the year..I'll try to be brief; NO ONE tells TC how to use his mind, NO ONE..They might suggest(as after 2006 season, when he was asked to please cooperate more with the press) something, but he'd walk away before ANYONE pushes anything down his throat..11 years and people don't know TC by now?
RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way?
Steelers with LeBeau as someone mentioned in another thread.
I understand the viewpoint but I will never be sad that that Spags was the choice. He did a great job here over two years, with different pieces here each year. The whole organization and fan base were extremely sad to initially lose him. I fully believe he is better than Fewell, and TC is already very familiar and confident in him. I'll prefer to look at the positives on this one (which is not always the case for me... lol).
RE: RE: Lebeau went to a Super Bowl with the Steelers as a DC in '95
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Jordan, this is a parity league, where teams rise up out of nowhere..They have solid coaching and a QB..Teams ascend without too much overhaul all the time..
Do you really think we couldn't have competed this year if:
-DRC was at full speed? Prince was playing? Thurmond wasn't lost for the year? Will Hill didn't have to be let go? That all the miscommunication and fu*k-ups that went on throughout the year would not have occurred after a few games of getting used to one another..
-Beason was effectively not lost for the season(a sesamoid injury has nothing to do with being "injury-prone.") and paired with McClain providing at least an average LB..I won't include Kennard because he was injured much of the year and didn't come on late once he was healthy to get PT..
-Had Jennings not gone down at the 2-2 mark for, let's call it, the entire season, it wouldn't have helped the growth of the OL? He actually made the OL look better than it was..Cruz gone during the 6th game? Beckham lost for the first 4 games?
We will tweak and build some more in the draft as all teams do..We have Eli, not a bad place to start to compete..
Yes, all teams have injuries, NONE have come close to what we had, with our NFL-record setting IR players the last two years..These weren't "bottom-feeder" players that we lost for the year..These were core players..
As an aside, Unless Cruz had other structures repaired that we are unaware of(possible), then his straight up surgery will have him at 100% with very little loss of speed/quickness, imo
Give me reasonable health, that's all I ask and we will compete for the division..I am not a polyanna. Can't be..I went through 1964-1980..
But I thought Pepper Johnson made more sense in a lot of ways.
You can't always "go home," or go back, and the truth is Spags DOESN'T have the DL horses he did in 07. No new DC would, and Fewel didn't have them either.
Meanwhile, Umenyiora, Tuck and Kiwanuka are old (in football years) and in the twilight of their playing careers. None is likely to be playing for the Giants next season.
Two of them aren't even on the Giants and haven't been.
Jordan, I appreciate your coming over to address the article.
But most teams are "desperate" to get better if they haven't made the playoffs in a while. TC seems to have an excellent OC in place (a guy whom he hired w/o any OC experience) and now a DC he knows well after interviewing several candidates. To me that's not desperation, just selecting the guys he feels can do the best job for him. Time will tell if he's right, but having good players will do a lot more than coaching ability to determine the team's ultimate potential for success.
as usual, people are really overstating the talent on the 07-08 Ds
Particularly '08, when there was no Osi or Strahan and the starters included such immortals as Danny Clark, Chase Blackburn, James Butler and Michael Johnson.
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Do I think they'll go 15-1? No, although it would be nice (as long as a ring went with it). Do I think they can win and be a contender next season? Yes. The Steelers in '04 went from 15th in scoring under Tim Lewis, who we know all too well, to 1st under LeBeau with roughly the same defense. Can we expect such a meteoric rise? Again, no but I think it's fair to say that the average Giants fan sees the difference in what Spags can do vs. what we got out of Fewell for five years. Simply put, it's an upgrade and that's what we needed.
I think a better comparison would be the Cowboys. They missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and three straight 8-8 records. With the change from Kiffin to Marinelli they went from 26th in scoring to 15th. Perfect? No. Holes in the defense? Yes. But improvements attached with a more balanced offense took them from an average team to within a controversial call of making the NFC championship. Bringing back Spags is a good call.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
Personality.
The same reason they wouldn't hire either of the Ryan brothers or gregg williams.
Personally I think the whole thing is overblown. We have a guy who the players loved that did the job well before. Yes personnel has changed, but maybe he helps change that back to what it was.
Hiring a fresh face doesn't prove anything.
If keeping the existing head coach, the OC and placing a both a QB coach and DC which the HC is familiar with isn't stability, I don't what Raanan is looking for besides an opportunity to bitch.
Don't forget, Spags wasn't just DC for the 07' run, he was also DC in 08' - the best year of the Coughlin regime. He has proven that when he has the players, he can build a winner.
How people can spin this negatively is beyond me. So he wasn't a good head coach. Big deal.
Thrilled to have him back. :D
just because the past was great it does not imply the same results in the future. This was just a desperation, safe hire for the organization. Don't expect too much more unless we actually field some real linebackers.
They sure went through a bunch of interviews for this to be considered laziness.
I think Spags fills two requirements: Someone who won't leave again shortly if he has success, and someone who they know fits well here.
Jim Schwartz wants to be a HC again. Even the best case scenario for the giants means he's leaving town shortly and they have to do this dance again. But, they never even interviewed him, which means they probably don't care for his personality quirks.
We have no idea if Pepper can do the job, and jobs are at stake if the team doesn't perform well this season. Pepper was just unfortunate bad timing.
TC wasn't going to go through the process of switching to a 3-4, which can take time. They don't have time. That rules LeBeau out even though he's qualified and a legend.
just because the past was great it does not imply the same results in the future. This was just a desperation, safe hire for the organization. Don't expect too much more unless we actually field some real linebackers.
Not sure if you're familiar with the pool of LBs we 'featured' in 07-08...
I don't think laziness is the right word ... but it is indeed the opposite of desperation ... conservative complacency ... TC knows exactly what he can expect from Spags ...
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
Is he the best DC ever? Doubtful. Is he washed up at 55? Seriously??
I'll argue that in the position they are in now... shit is on. They have to get it right. This is Spags chance to redeem himself, in a place he clearly loved to coach and ALREADY experienced success.
Desperation MY ASS.
What we've heard is that dismissing Fewell was TC's decision. If that's true, then it's not desperation at all, he figures he's updating by bringing back a formerly successful DC.
If not, though - then he does have a point - instead of forcing TC to dump KG one year and then PF the next, maybe it was just time to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch. Ripping the bandaid off slowly isn't going to make it hurt any less.
The only thing sounding like "desperation" is the article.
And how was bringing Sully back a bad thing? The guy did a great job with Eli when he was here before. Would it have been better to bring in someone Eli and TC had no relationship with?
The guy's reminding me of Francessa more and more...trying to be smarter than everyone else when he doesn't have a clue.
Ha! That's right... forgot about that!
LB'ERS and a good Safety and watch what Spags can do.
"They have backed themselves into a corner. Coughlin and the Giants always preach patience and stability. They don't seem to have either now.
Overall, this all seems so slapped together. There's an offensive coordinator entering his second year with the team, a defensive coordinator entering his first year, a roster that was completely turned over last offseason and a head coach who needs to win to keep his job. That's hardly a recipe for success."
He's leaving out how we have a drastically approved offense that lost Cruz and still under-performed on the OL. Why would year 2 for McAdoo be a knock going into the 2015 season?
Glad to see the forum back up and appreciate everyone reading. You're more than entitled to disagree with my opinions. That is why it's fun.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way? Giants have fairly new OC, new/old DC, long-time head coach, are coming off three straight seasons w/out playoffs and have mandate to make playoffs this year.
Hence the word "desperation" to try and make it work this season. It's a knock on the situation as a whole more than the Spags hiring. This was just the final inevitable move.
Personally, I like the move. If his defense has indeed changed, I hope he keeps the attack mentality
Personally I think the whole thing is overblown. We have a guy who the players loved that did the job well before. Yes personnel has changed, but maybe he helps change that back to what it was.
Hiring a fresh face doesn't prove anything.
Bingo!
You can hire a guy that was successful for you and you know what you're getting or you can take a chance with somebody and maybe end up with a dud.
Randee with the 2015 post of the year..I'll try to be brief; NO ONE tells TC how to use his mind, NO ONE..They might suggest(as after 2006 season, when he was asked to please cooperate more with the press) something, but he'd walk away before ANYONE pushes anything down his throat..11 years and people don't know TC by now?
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
But you want proof to validate my comments? Who has ever built a winning team this way?
Steelers with LeBeau as someone mentioned in another thread.
I understand the viewpoint but I will never be sad that that Spags was the choice. He did a great job here over two years, with different pieces here each year. The whole organization and fan base were extremely sad to initially lose him. I fully believe he is better than Fewell, and TC is already very familiar and confident in him. I'll prefer to look at the positives on this one (which is not always the case for me... lol).
Not sure I'd categorize Steve Spagnuolo as the coach you'd want to bring in to put your team over the top either. The truth is somewhere in between.
Quote:
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Jordan, this is a parity league, where teams rise up out of nowhere..They have solid coaching and a QB..Teams ascend without too much overhaul all the time..
Do you really think we couldn't have competed this year if:
-DRC was at full speed? Prince was playing? Thurmond wasn't lost for the year? Will Hill didn't have to be let go? That all the miscommunication and fu*k-ups that went on throughout the year would not have occurred after a few games of getting used to one another..
-Beason was effectively not lost for the season(a sesamoid injury has nothing to do with being "injury-prone.") and paired with McClain providing at least an average LB..I won't include Kennard because he was injured much of the year and didn't come on late once he was healthy to get PT..
-Had Jennings not gone down at the 2-2 mark for, let's call it, the entire season, it wouldn't have helped the growth of the OL? He actually made the OL look better than it was..Cruz gone during the 6th game? Beckham lost for the first 4 games?
We will tweak and build some more in the draft as all teams do..We have Eli, not a bad place to start to compete..
Yes, all teams have injuries, NONE have come close to what we had, with our NFL-record setting IR players the last two years..These weren't "bottom-feeder" players that we lost for the year..These were core players..
As an aside, Unless Cruz had other structures repaired that we are unaware of(possible), then his straight up surgery will have him at 100% with very little loss of speed/quickness, imo
Give me reasonable health, that's all I ask and we will compete for the division..I am not a polyanna. Can't be..I went through 1964-1980..
You can't always "go home," or go back, and the truth is Spags DOESN'T have the DL horses he did in 07. No new DC would, and Fewel didn't have them either.
Two of them aren't even on the Giants and haven't been.
Quote:
left in '96 only to come back 8 years later and win two Super Bowls in Pittsburgh. Just sayin' Raanan
Valid point. It's not that I don't think it can be done. But '03 was Steelers' 1 blip on radar. They went 15-1 in '04. Anything think '15 Giants are comparable to '04 Steelers? They're coming off 3 seasons with no postseason and so much overhaul in past 2 years. Spags would absolutely be the right move if I thought this team was on the verge of being a Super Bowl contender.
Do I think they'll go 15-1? No, although it would be nice (as long as a ring went with it). Do I think they can win and be a contender next season? Yes. The Steelers in '04 went from 15th in scoring under Tim Lewis, who we know all too well, to 1st under LeBeau with roughly the same defense. Can we expect such a meteoric rise? Again, no but I think it's fair to say that the average Giants fan sees the difference in what Spags can do vs. what we got out of Fewell for five years. Simply put, it's an upgrade and that's what we needed.
I think a better comparison would be the Cowboys. They missed the playoffs for three straight seasons and three straight 8-8 records. With the change from Kiffin to Marinelli they went from 26th in scoring to 15th. Perfect? No. Holes in the defense? Yes. But improvements attached with a more balanced offense took them from an average team to within a controversial call of making the NFC championship. Bringing back Spags is a good call.