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It wasn’t just his scheme that turned the Big Blue defense into a monster in 2007. He had a Hall of Famer, two brilliant pass rushers and a Pro Bowler. Look around and compare that to what he’s working with now. ... What Steve Spagnuolo did in 2007 and 2008 is remembered as magical. But if he can do it again with this undermanned group, it will be his greatest trick yet. ... Players raved about his ability to adjust in the middle of the game |
What happens with a better system if all of a sudden these players start playing to their talent level?
I think we are going to find out quite soon.
Better MLB(loved AP but a healthy Beason is better)
I would take 14 Dts over 07
And I think a healthy JPP is the most talented giants defensive player since LT
Better MLB(loved AP but a healthy Beason is better)
I would take 14 Dts over 07
And I think a healthy JPP is the most talented giants defensive player since LT
Talent is here for sure but I wouldn't count on Beason. There is a reason we got him for a 7th. He is extremely injury prone at this point of his career. No problem with bringing him back but only if super cheap as we can not expect a full season of health from him based on the history.
You could shit gold with these writers and they would complain about the smell
akers will be turned loose.
Also we will have a dB group
using normal coverage..not
lbers and 3 safeties covering
wrs.....50% improvement over
system. ..add new lbers and dbs
and we improve more.
When Beason was healthy in 13, he could get them organized, but in his absence, it went back to being a mess.
When Beason was healthy in 13, he could get them organized, but in his absence, it went back to being a mess.
Agree totally. Beason was a big reason the Giants defense was ineffective. And as you say, Fewell was unable to compensate for the loss of Beason. I don't expect that to be the case with Spags.
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was it was disorganized and there were lots of games where the players didn't seem to be on the same page.
When Beason was healthy in 13, he could get them organized, but in his absence, it went back to being a mess.
Agree totally. Beason was a big reason the Giants defense was ineffective. And as you say, Fewell was unable to compensate for the loss of Beason. I don't expect that to be the case with Spags.
Spags D won't need to have everything be perfect for it to succeed.
Eric keeps scooping them... so they have to resort to negativity.
They act like they are the last word because their job is sports writer. We can look and see this team has talent and while it isn't what it was in 2007 and '08, Ralph V. Is acting like the Giants are asking him to turn water into wine.
They are fucking football players. That's what they do. All we want is for Spags to give us a better prepared together unit. One that the communicates on the field better then the one Fewell put out there. Then let the chips fall where they may.
All those greats (speaking loosely - Tuck, Osi, etc were good, not great) aren't coming back. get over it, sports writers. What's important now is getting the most out of the players we do have. the writers admit that Spags was able to do that in the past, but then want to dwell on the quality of the players rather than the quality of the play. Not all coaches get overall great play out of great players.
Fewell's teams underperformed, for the most part. It's why he's gone. Spags was picked to replace him because the Giants think he can get them performing better.
When Beason was healthy in 13, he could get them organized, but in his absence, it went back to being a mess.
+1
I'll also add that when Spags took over that unit in 2007, Tuck wasnt established yet. I'm not saying Moore and Ayers will turn into Tuck and Osi, but they have real ability.
Just sayin'
What happens with a better system if all of a sudden these players start playing to their talent level?
I think we are going to find out quite soon.
Hey Jolly_Blue_Giant -- why did you steal another poster's name?
Well guess what! We don't need to be 5th or 7th just not 32nd like it's been the last two years.
Like him or hate him. It's definitely going to be an improvement over what we've had in the past.
Well guess what! We don't need to be 5th or 7th just not 32nd like it's been the last two years.
Like him or hate him. It's definitely going to be an improvement over what we've had in the past.
Agree. With the offense that I expect we'll be able to field, a middle of the road defense should be enough to contend for a playoff spot.
If you look at most teams in the NFL the differnce in the talent is not that great. It's what you do with what you have and how you implement them. Fewell's defenses were predictable and fell into the same pattern over and over. Tom had to make a change. And so he did. And the writers viewed it as desperation. So I guess they would have written happier columns if Tom decided to keep Fewell.
He did the right thing for the right reasons and the writers have nothing but negative things to say. Why are we not surprised.
I will mention this one more time: Spagnuolo's essential blueprint with the Giants his first time around was: 1. Four Aces. 2. Fire zone blitz. 3. Soft Cover 2 shell behind it. It worked with HOFer Strahan, emerging All-Pro Tuck, and the young, fast, springy Osi. Then Spagnuolo went away. He was made, laid, parlayed and re-played. In the league, outside of getting a job from his best friend, he became football's version of Jacobo Timerman.
What is encouraging about this otherwise nostalgia-driven stab to reclaim past glory is what Coughlin said Thursday. Spagnuolo has sought to re-invent himself. He has studied under the Ravens coaches. He approached people like Urban Meyer to learn how to defend the read and spreads. He will not, at least according to Coughlin, assume that his former ways will automatically work, as he did when he failed so utterly with the Rams and Saints. This is, in essence, the definition of the one-trick pony. Arnsparger never re-claimed the magic of the 53 defense when he returned to the Dolphins. Buddy Ryan never duplicated the 46 with the Eagles or Cardinals.
Better MLB(loved AP but a healthy Beason is better)
I would take 14 Dts over 07
And I think a healthy JPP is the most talented giants defensive player since LT
Giants had good CB's in 2008 too. Webster, Ross, and T2. Safeties weren't much but who knows if they will be now.
DT's? No way. Robbins and Cofield were both great. Hankins is but there needs to be another guy who can push the middle. JPP and Tuck are/were both great players. 2008 has the edge due to the DT's - but they can really improve the defense by signing somebody like Devin McCourty.
Is our talent that much worst than Dallas, who went 12-4? Yes, I know the Cowboy's Defensive stats aren't much better than ours, but that was a tough defense to go against. And they were as bad as anyone the year before. You don't think coaching didn't help?
What the writers aren't taking into account is that players can improve under better coaching and a better system. I was sick to death of confusion in the backfield every year.
Our players may get beat, but I don't mind getting beat by better talent but being in the proper spot vs. wide open receivers as a result of confusion over the play call. That, and an aggressive attitude, is what Spagnuolo brings to this unit, and I can't wait to see it!
That's on him. He was the head honcho of the defense.
That's on him. He was the head honcho of the defense.
This!
Secondary? You have DRC and Prince, for one year, if they can both stay healthy....I think Prince is gone the following year to FAcy.....who are the backups? Walter I-can't-stay-on-he-field Thurmond(played 16 games in the last three years, starting just 5 games, and we paid 3M for this), C. Brown, Zack maybe-I'll-try-to-tackle-him Bowman, Harris , Fenner? McBride and Hosely are your typical Giant projects...
At this moment we have no starting safeties....we have only no experience Berhe with a bad knee, and oops, I'm hurt again Taylor, who are signed for the next year.....are they better than a faltering Rolle? No they are not....You need Rolle, but at a much lower price than 7M...I wouldn't go higher than 3M per....Bye-bye Demps and Brown.....safety is a huge hole...
Linebackers? McClain? Slow, not a real run stuffer, and in coverage, weak....Kennard? A rookie whose only flashes have been average plays a linebacker should make......Beason? If asked to take a paycut, what do you think his attitude would be? At age 30, this upcoming season could be his last big payday(5.9 M), and possibly last season with the Giants.....he won't take a pay cut....if we decide to cut him, we can split his dead money and save 4.4 M towards a free agent linebacker who's healthier and younger...there are no Giant linebacker backups....
The defensive line.....Hankins.....that's it.....I think JPP goes to the highest bidder....if franchised, he will play cautiously, to avoid injury, and you could get a stat year, not a performance year...if franchised, he will pull a "Welker".....Jenkins is another year older, and missed games this year....Patterson is another century older....that leaves the kids.....Wynn, who flashed in one game and came down to earth in the Eagles game.....Moore who is a huge question mark if he can be a starter......Bromley, a complete unknown....Kuhn does look "pretty" in a uniform....Ayers is a one trick pony, not a starter....Kiwi is all done......
This lack of talent would give any new DC nightmares.....Just too many "ifs".....Can Beason be healthy for a season? Can Kennard progress and stay on the field? Will Moore and Bromley take huge leaps? Can we get starters in FAcy? Does Jenkins have one more year in him? Will the draft yield a starter? and JPP? What will really happen? You already have 3 players gobbling up 36M of your cap, or around 25% of it.....there really is not that much cap space if you try to franchise JPP(he will not sign a deal, just like Welker) and try and fill the holes in FAcy....
Their OL and running game, made their defense look better, than their middle of the pack defense(points wise) standings in the NFC....a running game made Romo's job much easier than Eli's....they were a tough defense to go against? A couple bad throws by Eli against them were the difference in their two victories....
I've posted that before. SS must have talented players.
(1) Secondary? You have DRC and Prince, for one year, if they can both stay healthy....I think Prince is gone the following year to FAcy
(2) At this moment we have no starting safeties....we have only no experience Berhe with a bad knee, and oops, I'm hurt again Taylor
(3) Linebackers? McClain? Slow, not a real run stuffer, and in coverage, weak....Kennard? A rookie whose only flashes have been average plays a linebacker should make......
(4) The defensive line.....Hankins.....that's it.....I think JPP goes to the highest bidder....if franchised, he will play cautiously,
I like you post and the concerns you mentioned are real. I do believe, like Dallas and the Giants 2008 team, if the OL is stronger it really helps the defense.
1. Prince will likely be extended and restructured this offseason. The Giants cap position is very healthy and there really isn't any reason Prince shouldn't be extended nor do I believe he would break the bank in free agency.
2. Yeah, it's a problem. I'm been pushing for Suh b/c a strong DL cover up for a significant weakness. We all know out 1986 DB's kinda stunk yet the pressure up front helped a lot. Will Hill's behavior hurt a lot. Wish I had another solution besides load up the DL to help cover for the safety issues
3. Adding one linebacker could really make positive impact and the FA market isn't that bad. Players like Rey Maualuga, Jasper Brinkley and a few others might be ok. Let's hope the Cards or somebody parts ways with a Daryl Washington type. I think linebacker is an easier fix than safety
4. IMO, just get Suh and blow the middle of the opponent's OL apart. Signing Suh would certainly save a lot of 2nd round draft picks allocated toward the same position. Personally, I'm tired of seeing the team draft Austin, Bromley, etc, then allowing Cofield, Joseph, etc to walk and then I see Jenkins out there, then Kuhn and occasionally Patterson. Enough, get Suh and solidify the DT position with Hankins so we can add elsewhere.
As far as JPP, franchise him and try to negotiate from there. If it doesn't work, that's why Ayers was signed and Moore, etc were drafted. IMO, if 32 teams in the NFL had a choice between Suh and JPP, the majority are going Suh b/c he's the best at his position. Get the best player and try for the other. The pressure in a 4-3 defense is NOT coming from the DE's as often as up the middle. The QB's are getting rid of the ball much faster.
Enjoyed your post :)
JPP will be a pain in the ass to block, as will damontre moore
At this point I don't give a shit about how good or not so good the talent is. While they may not be as talented as some other defenses they certainly have enough to play better and more consistently. They were consistently disappointing under Fewell. So for everyone who doesn't like the choice of Spags you have to be nuts.
You want Fewell back for more frustration? Spags is as good an option as anyone who was out there. He did it once before. Why is it so inconceivable he can't get them to play better again? Just because some think the talent isn't as good as it was when he was here before he can't get these guys to play better? I'm optimistic. At least we won't have to look at Perry's Cheshire cat smile anymore whenever his defense fucks up their assignments.
At this point I don't give a shit about how good or not so good the talent is. While they may not be as talented as some other defenses they certainly have enough to play better and more consistently. They were consistently disappointing under Fewell. So for everyone who doesn't like the choice of Spags you have to be nuts.
You want Fewell back for more frustration? Spags is as good an option as anyone who was out there. He did it once before. Why is it so inconceivable he can't get them to play better again? Just because some think the talent isn't as good as it was when he was here before he can't get these guys to play better? I'm optimistic. At least we won't have to look at Perry's Cheshire cat smile anymore whenever his defense fucks up their assignments.
Blueblood's right. Look at the Cowboys. New DC and a terrible defense last year was sufficient for a 12-4 record this year. So many commentators assume that the player exists in a vacuum: the defensive scheme and coaching are either irrelevant or incidental. So-called no-name defenses prove that coaching is very significant.
With Spags back, this defense--finally unleashed, properly coached, and inspired in their aggressive schemes--will perform as it has not since 2008. Hopefully, we won't be subject to another Cowboy last-minute drive in which our key pass rushers are sitting on the bench in prevent-style defensive schemes with 3 minutes to go.
Our secondary was decimated with injuries and poor schemes. We should be much better with guys healthy and Spags.
LB- holding my breath. No Beason, no good. We clearly need him or SE stink. Maybe Kennard will be a player, we hope. Everyone else is mediocre. Draft could help.
Bottom line: if healthy, we should be much much improved. Not in panic mode yet.
DRC-Madison
Thurman-McQuarters
Berhe-Butler
McLain- Pierce
JPP- Strahan
Moore -Osi
Hankins-Cofield
Bromley -Robbins
Kennard-Kiwi
If we get Rolle back -Wilson
Add in Wynn Ayers Holsey another guy playing in the wrong system and I see a lot of what Spags had to work with in 2007.
I don't see this defense becoming a top 5 defense but there certainly is enough talent to keep it a top 10-15 defense.
DRC-Madison
Thurman-McQuarters
Berhe-Butler
McLain- Pierce
JPP- Strahan
Moore -Osi
Hankins-Cofield
Bromley -Robbins
Kennard-Kiwi
If we get Rolle back -Wilson
Add in Wynn Ayers Holsey another guy playing in the wrong system and I see a lot of what Spags had to work with in 2007.
yes, it is not far off by any means. and dont forget no Osi OR Stray in 08 and still a top 5 finish
Moore,Taylor Holsey Kuhn Bromley are not wasted draft picks.
I got some players for you
Hankins,Kennard Prince DRC McBride
Some old pros
McClain,Ayers,Jenkins Kiwi Patterson
We like Wynn and Berhe too.
Spags to Reese
I need JPP signed and moved to RDE first.
Get me some Linebackers that are fast,
Get me Rolle too.
Spags- Better find some in this draft. If they are fast, I will teach them how to cover. So get busy and do your homework. You will need a stopwatch Jerry. I know that is one tool missing from this organization.