Chris Mortensen & #8207;3 minutes ago
NFL has found that 11 of the Patriots footballs used in Sundays AFC title game were under-inflated by 2 lbs each, per league sources.
Chris Mortensen 4 minutes ago
NFL has no comment at this time and Patriots say they will continue to cooperate with the investigation. More on SpotrsCenter.
Jason La Canfora 3 minutes ago
As NFL investigates Deflate-gate would be wise to speak to Ravens. Some there believe kicking balls used in their playoff game underinflated
Jason La Canfora 2 minutes ago
There appeared to be less air in some kicking balls which may have had an impact on the depth of punts and kickoffs in AFC Divisional game
the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Jason La Canfora 3 minutes ago
An NFL spokesman said as of tonight they had no knowledge of a Ravens complaint about the kicking balls from their playoff game
noone should be at all surprised new england would circumvent this or any rule they believed they could get away with. Take some draft picks away and suspend 'Lil Bill a couple games at the start of next season. Won't stop them finding some other way to cheat but does put a bit of a sting to getting caught.
Rule 2 The Ball
Section 1
BALL DIMENSIONS
The Ball must be a Wilson, hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.
The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case (natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall be: long axis, 11 to 11 1/4 inches; long circumference, 28 to 28 1/2 inches; short ircumference, 21 to 21 1/4 inches; weight, 14 to 15 ounces.
The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game.
Section 2
BALL SUPPLY
Each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all stadiums. In addition, the visitors, at their discretion, may bring 12 backup balls to be tested by the Referee for games held in outdoor stadiums. For all games, eight new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer to the Referee, will be opened in the officials locker room two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game.
These balls are to be specially marked by the Referee and used exclusively for the kicking game.
In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner.
In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of the offensive teams center.
The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs).
Note: It is the responsibility of the home team to furnish playable balls at all times by attendants from either side of the playing
field.
Yeah, this one normally wouldn't get more than a few raised eyebrows
the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Bart Hubbuch 6 minutes ago
But the more likely response is: "EVERYBODY DOES IT. THE PATRIOTS JUST GOT CAUGHT!"
the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Bart Hubbuch 6 minutes ago
But the more likely response is: "EVERYBODY DOES IT. THE PATRIOTS JUST GOT CAUGHT!"
Exactly. Two weeks til Super Bowl. The press needs stories, dammit!
The league will say they have no evidence to say the pats did or didn't deflate balls....slide it under the rug. Kraft and goodell are buddies. Kraft has stuck up for goodell in the past with this Ray rice scandal
but it's an offense that could result in a loss of draft picks, which indicates that the league is pretty serious about it. Just a pattern of shitty behavior by that franchise.
but it's an offense that could result in a loss of draft picks, which indicates that the league is pretty serious about it. Just a pattern of shitty behavior by that franchise.
They are jerks. I hope they win by 40 in two weeks.
but it's an offense that could result in a loss of draft picks, which indicates that the league is pretty serious about it. Just a pattern of shitty behavior by that franchise.
They are jerks. I hope they win by 40 in two weeks.
I'll revel in the losing team's misery - whoever it is.
It seems pretty improbable that mere happenstance would result in 11 of the 12 footballs being under-inflated without outside factors. While the blame for the deflated footballs has yet to be assigned, the Patriots wont get much in the way of benefit of the doubt due to previous issues. Link - ( New Window )
but it's an offense that could result in a loss of draft picks, which indicates that the league is pretty serious about it. Just a pattern of shitty behavior by that franchise.
They are jerks. I hope they win by 40 in two weeks.
I'll revel in the losing team's misery - whoever it is.
the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Me too. Also, if this is actually important, I dont understand how the officials dont notice this. One official touches the ball on every fucking play.
Dan Lifshatz 13 minutes ago
And refs don't care because everyone in the league does it and it isn't a big deal unless you make it one like the Colts did. The end
Dan Lifshatz 4 minutes ago
And the Colts report it because they got their asses handed to them on National TV and want to take headlines off them. So freaking simple
Dan Lifshatz 15 minutes ago
Want to know what really happened? Pats deflated balls because no one cares. Refs didn't report it because no one cares. Colts report it
Dan Lifshatz retweeted
Mark Daniels 17m 17 minutes ago
There are a couple options: someone deflated the balls in game or the referees didn't do their jobs.
Dan Lifshatz retweeted
Chris Mortensen 34m 34 minutes ago
NFL has found that 11 of the Patriots footballs used in Sundays AFC title game were under-inflated by 2 lbs each, per league sources.
Dan Lifshatz retweeted
Mike Loyko 26m 26 minutes ago
Further proof that NFL referees are incompetent.
Dan Lifshatz retweeted
Mike Loyko 37m 37 minutes ago
As a #Patriots scout recently told me "The rest of the NFL hates us and that's the way we like it". #DeflateGate
Bart Hubbuch retweeted
Rich Rozefort @subzero2401 2m2 minutes ago
Belichick probably already fired the ball boy because he forgot to deflate that 12th ball.
to say everyone does it. I bet the league has all of the balls from sunday, including the Colts ones. And I bet they checked those, and funny that none of them were underinflated
We have now reached the point in the New England Patriots' Ballghazi scandal where Patriots fans can start claiming that the team didn't do anything that every other team in the NFL isn't also doing.
The defense enters the above video into evidence. Here we have CBS broadcasters Jim Nantz and Phil Simms casually recounting their pregame conversation with Aaron Rodgers before his Week 13 matchup with the Patriots. According to Simms, Rodgers admitted to them that he likes to over-inflate game balls. "I like to push the limits of how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do," is what Simms recalls Rodgers telling them
Will Brinson retweeted
Ben Volin @BenVolin 5m 5 minutes ago
Globe confirms that game officials discovered at halftime that game balls were underinflated. Tested each ball twice with different gauges
"Yet to be determined is what, if any, penalties may be imposed upon Patriots. One source described the league as "disappointed ... angry ... distraught," after spending considerable time on the findings earlier Tuesday." Link - ( New Window )
it sounds like gamesmanship to deal with bad weather conditions to help give an edge. You would assume that other teams in similar circumstances have done something similar in the past, but the Pats went too far.
Kinda sounds like a similar situation that took place in Boston about 9 months ago that more or less the same general fanbase will forget how they reacted when pine tar was involved...and it was a Yankee.
is that if this was a regular season game, it would get kind of buried with a fine and that's it. Since it's the Super Bowl and this whole storyline, Goodell is going to bring the hammer down and hit them with a huge fine and probably will strip them of a 2nd round pick, if not really want to go for it and take their first rounder. After the Super Bowl, and a few months down the road when the heat is off, the Pats will appeal and it will get knocked back to a 4th rounder and we all go on our merry way.
If the refs checked the balls and then gave them back to the team just prior to the start of the game then this was without a doubt intentional. I have to ask another question then can you really tell the weight difference by sight during a game? It was raining from my experience the ball becomes heavier when wet what made these guys suspect the balls were tampered with? Now we want to point fingers at the Pats but if this is being done throughout the league is it not time for the NFL to just provide the game balls and bring this to an end. Looks like this could open up another position on the refs staff but this would end this kind of actions completely. I have to admit there is nothing more important on the field then the football so lets fix this once and for all.
sent the Boston police out with the footballs to be used in breathalyzer tests. They were then supposed to be turned over to Southie hookers, and returned fully blown. It wasn't his fault.
so someone explain this to me....
Since the Pats dont control which ball goes into the game at any given moment, and the under inflated ball is a good thing for both teams .... then how did the Pats have an advantage over the Colts? The only thing I can think of is if the Pats were passing 90% of the time and the Colts were running.
hey, remember when the Giants would manipulate the wind
The Pats have created their own Scarlet Letter on themselves, with Spygate....every time they win, they must have cheated....Look how they circumvent the rules by splitting out ineligible receivers out there at the last second against the Ravens......BB must be rewriting the rule book....
Would weather have an affect? sure...anyone with TPM system on their cars, look at the pressure in your tires first thing on cold mornings....they are lower in pressure, and rise with temp....fact some were lower than others, could just mean that the others could have been overinflated...
Funny, that a linebacker would notice this and that the center and A. Luck didn't......or are they saying, that the Colts only were given the few high pressured balls, and the Pats were given only the lower pressured balls?
I would be checking the thigh pads/shoulder pads of Blount on the Pats too....must have had flubber in there, the way the Colts were bouncing off him, and not making those tackles......there has to be some explanation why the Pats have trounced the Colts four straight times, the exact same way.....I mean, come on, the Ravens were crushed by the Colts.....the Pats just about edged the Ravens....ergo, the Colts should easily beat the Pats....it's a fact....
RE: OK it is early and I did not have any coffee yet..
so someone explain this to me....
Since the Pats dont control which ball goes into the game at any given moment, and the under inflated ball is a good thing for both teams .... then how did the Pats have an advantage over the Colts? The only thing I can think of is if the Pats were passing 90% of the time and the Colts were running.
This has nothing to do with the score. And in a wet game where Blount had 30 carries, holding onto a smaller ball is an advantage.
It was 51 degrees at game time. To lose 20 percent of the air would require severe cold. The only reasonable explanation is that this was an intentional act.
Quick question for the "Everybody does it" and "not a big deal" crowd
if this if underinflating balls for only the home team to gain an advantage is "OK" since everybody does it and (in hindsight) wasn't a big factor in deciding the game, what other written NFL rules are OK to break to give a team an advantage?
tribs, it has nothing to do with NE being the home team
advantage, and that Brady might not throw as well if the ball were inflated to regulation? I'm having a hard time seeing it myself; if it were just the Colts, wouldn't they know something was off with their ball (there's a noticeable difference in feel between the two PSI)? Have to think that the whole idea here is that the Pats wanted to use an 11 PSI ball and had to keep them all at that pressure to get away with it.
if this if underinflating balls for only the home team to gain an advantage is "OK" since everybody does it and (in hindsight) wasn't a big factor in deciding the game, what other written NFL rules are OK to break to give a team an advantage?
Opening doors to change wind patterns during FG attempts...
You take away all the points scored by the patriots in the game using a ball. You then determine the winner of the game using the adjusted score, which I believe would be 7-0.
Congratulations Colts, you are the AFC Champions!
RE: tribs, it has nothing to do with NE being the home team
Pats will just say they broke out new balls and never tested them. The refs checked them and held them to game time. Unless the NFL has video of the Pats deflating balls on the sidelines, nothing will happen to Pats.
YAWN. Who cares. The thing that surprised me most is that the NFL
doesn't control the game balls itself. It controls every thing else down to how much sock has to be showing.
Well, we know that is going to change come next season. My guess is that they will continue to allow the teams to provide the balls, but once the balls are inspected by the refs, they will remain under the NFL's control (rather than the team) until the end of the game.
Maybe Bradys hands are smaller or his grip is different enough that it is a Pats advantage. Like the Giants opening closing doors at the old stadium, its all part of the game. Bend the rules till they tell you no. At least its not the dirty play that the Harbaugh's and Detroit coach up.
The Pats could have used an actual brick instead of a football on Sunday and still won by 3 scores. They fucking ragdolled the Colts just like they've been doing pretty consistently for the last 10 years.
If I really thought it had effected the outcome of the game, I'd care more. We all know it didn't.
is really, really important and they are handled and checked closely before game time it is obvious the league doesn't trust the teams to do the right thing. But when the game starts they hand the balls off to home team employees for safekeepings? Maybe the 'ball attendants' should work for the league.
The Pats could have used an actual brick instead of a football on Sunday and still won by 3 scores. They fucking ragdolled the Colts just like they've been doing pretty consistently for the last 10 years.
If I really thought it had effected the outcome of the game, I'd care more. We all know it didn't.
and I really don't care either way. But it is becoming tiresome how much stuff they either get caught for or are accused of. You'd think the Jets would be doing stuff like this, not the best team in football over the last 15 years. Its just weird and while there is no punishment that they can realistically give that would make sense, the league doing nothing would be a slap in the face to those who hold up their end of the integrity bargain.
This is all about integrity, not winning or losing.
How about just ripping this foolish rule out of the over inflated rule book. Why not just have the manufacturer make NFL balls to a prescribed inflation that can't be altered and supply the balls to the game officials. Geeesch
The Pats could have used an actual brick instead of a football on Sunday and still won by 3 scores. They fucking ragdolled the Colts just like they've been doing pretty consistently for the last 10 years.
If I really thought it had effected the outcome of the game, I'd care more. We all know it didn't.
Agreed. Much ado about nothing.
So it's OK to cheat as long as you blow the other team out? Got it.
The Pats could have used an actual brick instead of a football on Sunday and still won by 3 scores. They fucking ragdolled the Colts just like they've been doing pretty consistently for the last 10 years.
If I really thought it had effected the outcome of the game, I'd care more. We all know it didn't.
Agreed. Much ado about nothing.
I cannot agree that intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage is much ado about nothing. Whether they actually needed the advantage is irrelevant. Getting away with it just encourages more cheating, and then someone has to decide when its flagrant enough to warrant penalties?
Well, if you guys think the Pats are the only team...
But teams are looking to gain competitive advantages in any way possible. This isn't unique to the Patriots. I know because of Spygate, everyone is inclined to think they're the only team that ever does anything questionable but I'm sure that's not the case.
a faulty pressure gauge, those things need to be calibrated sometimes and maybe the guy who inflated the balls for the Pats just had a gauge that read 2psi higher than reality?
would the league do to a player who broke the rules (cheated) in order to gain an unfair advantage? And how would that penalty be increased if the player was a repeat offender?
But teams are looking to gain competitive advantages in any way possible. This isn't unique to the Patriots. I know because of Spygate, everyone is inclined to think they're the only team that ever does anything questionable but I'm sure that's not the case.
I don't disagree with the general sentiment - it's that the Pats likely work the fringe between acceptable and illegal harder than any other team, and when you have the kind of sustained success that they've had, it raises additional questions when something like this happens.
Should be suspended, but this is the second pretty big scandal where they have been caught cheating. They should definitely lose more draft picks then they did for Spygate. Including the 1st rounder.
Bill knew this could be the last run with Brady at QB so he probably said fuck it I'll lose a draft pick or two to win one more Super Bowl.
RE: Well, if you guys think the Pats are the only team...
I'm fairly confident in saying this is not the first time a team has done this. It's just the first time someone got caught.
I don't. And if the game was 24-21 Pats im guessing you would care more. The score doesn't matter though, because they broke a rule anyway you slice it.
but I would hope the NFL tested these balls at the same temperature that they were tested at prior to the game.
It's a relatively simple formula to calculate- just need the temperature it was initially measured at and the temperature the second readings were taken at.
If the difference was relatively large, that could account for it.
No idea if the PSI's were taken in the locker room or on the field. One would think if they were taken in the locker room the temperature would have been constant.
Probably Brady paid to have the balls altered and now Bill has to take the fall - LOL - this will be Bill's legacy when he is inducted 1st ballot to HOF - rule bender.
Has taken advantage of these sitters:
The Pats have a lot of balls
Being kicked in the balls
Things getting blown out of proportion
The Colts were deflated.
But seriously, in the past it was the kickers who wanted their "special older balls" because they were easier to kick than new balls.
Question: would an under inflated ball be easier to grip if you have smaller hand? Would that be an advantage for Brady?
Has taken advantage of these sitters:
The Pats have a lot of balls
Being kicked in the balls
Things getting blown out of proportion
The Colts were deflated.
But seriously, in the past it was the kickers who wanted their "special older balls" because they were easier to kick than new balls.
Question: would an under inflated ball be easier to grip if you have smaller hand? Would that be an advantage for Brady?
We deflated ours in HS for both our QB and kicker. I honestly thought it was legal. Certainly it is a common practice from my experience.
the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Maybe so, CiP, but we heard the same thing with Spygate - everyone does it. So, then, why is it the Patriots are always the ones getting caught?
I've never heard of other teams complaining about underinflated footballs, and now we have 2 very recent examples. I've never heard a ref replace a K ball in the middle of a series, but we heard it Sunday.
Where there' is smoke, there is often fire, and there always seems to be a lot of smoke around the Pats. Until I hear concrete evidence that other teams do it, I'm not going to believe the "every team does it' canard.
Clearly, if there were underinflated footballs, it didn't change the result of Sunday's game. However, if they were doing it to Baltimore, maybe it did make a difference.
the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Maybe so, CiP, but we heard the same thing with Spygate - everyone does it. So, then, why is it the Patriots are always the ones getting caught?
I've never heard of other teams complaining about underinflated footballs, and now we have 2 very recent examples. I've never heard a ref replace a K ball in the middle of a series, but we heard it Sunday.
Where there' is smoke, there is often fire, and there always seems to be a lot of smoke around the Pats. Until I hear concrete evidence that other teams do it, I'm not going to believe the "every team does it' canard.
Clearly, if there were underinflated footballs, it didn't change the result of Sunday's game. However, if they were doing it to Baltimore, maybe it did make a difference.
Brad Johnson admitted to paying off someone to do it for their Super Bowl against the Raiders.
Just providing the example...just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.
to scuff balls. Is there a league specification to the proper amount of scuffing a ball should have or is allowed to have?
Quote:
Johnson, whose Buccaneers beat the Raiders at Super Bowl XXXVII, said he paid $7,500 to some people he did not identify so that they would scuff the balls set to be used in the Super Bowl, making them easier to grip. According to Johnson, there were 100 footballs set aside for the game, and the people he bribed tampered with all 100, to Johnsons specifications.
all the balls were checked and found underinflated and the Pat's were found underinflated by the official during halftime, per a previous report. That would mean the 2nd half was played with correctly inflated balls.
the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Maybe so, CiP, but we heard the same thing with Spygate - everyone does it. So, then, why is it the Patriots are always the ones getting caught?
I've never heard of other teams complaining about underinflated footballs, and now we have 2 very recent examples. I've never heard a ref replace a K ball in the middle of a series, but we heard it Sunday.
Where there' is smoke, there is often fire, and there always seems to be a lot of smoke around the Pats. Until I hear concrete evidence that other teams do it, I'm not going to believe the "every team does it' canard.
Clearly, if there were underinflated footballs, it didn't change the result of Sunday's game. However, if they were doing it to Baltimore, maybe it did make a difference.
At least part of it is because the Pats have had unparalleled success over the last 15 years. Do you really think anyone would care if the Jags were caught spying on other teams? Or if the Raiders were replacing the football with bricks while the other team was on offense?
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 6m6 minutes ago Bronx, NY
Of note: @nytimes story last year on Eli Manning's game balls being specifically tailored. Not weight, but feel.
Quote:
November 23, 2013
EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. When Eli Manning drops back to throw his first pass Sunday against the Dallas Cowboys, the football in his hands will be as familiar as an old friend.
That is because the ball has been scoured, scrubbed, soaked and seasoned, a breaking-in process that takes months and ensures that every ball used by the Giants in a game will meet Mannings exact preferences. The leather will have been softened, the grip enhanced and the overall feel painstakingly assessed.
There are no new balls thrown around in an N.F.L. game. A new ball, despised for its sheen and waxy gloss, is as popular as a late hit.
For every N.F.L. game, each team has 12 to 20 balls that it has meticulously groomed and prepared according to the needs of its starting quarterback. The balls, brushed and primed using various obvious and semisecret techniques, bear the team logo and are switched out from sideline to sideline depending on which team is on offense.
The Colts were blown up, the balls may not have been. What did that have to do with Blount running through their D? In all three phases they were manhandled period.
The only relevant issue is wether the Patriots broke a rule
Doesn't matter if it was a stupid rule, or others do it or did it or other things that may have been similar or worse.
There appears to be a specific rule that the Patriots specifically broke. That is a huge problem for the integrity of game, no matter wether it was benign or not.
I agree with those above that the NFL will obfuscate the findings in a manner that deflects guilt, otherwise they will have to make the Patriots pay, and that won't make anyone happy ever
I just think this is probably a lot more common than people realize. If it wasn't the Patriots and it was a regular season game, this story would have never even gained steam.
didn't cause Indy to miss tackles, not be able to get off blocks opening huge holes for Blount, committ penalties, drop balls, and only have 83 yards on the ground compared to 177 for NE.
Those things - the main factors in Indianapolis getting completely housed - have nothing to do with deflated footballs.
All that said, i've mentioned before - this stuff goes on behind the scenes. The balls get scuffed up, painted with a bit of pine tar and deflated based on preferences. Every team manipulates the balls to some extent.
Once Jackson easily plucked the Brady throw out of the air he probably went back to the sidelines and - assuming that he wanted to keep the ball - handed it to one of the Colts equipment guys who noticed that the ball was deflated. Word got around, Indy got smashed and eventually Irsay most likely tried to give the story legs through back channels.
Maybe if Indy blocked better, tackled better and played football a bit better, whining about deflated balls wouldn't have been an issue.
RE: The only relevant issue is wether the Patriots broke a rule
Doesn't matter if it was a stupid rule, or others do it or did it or other things that may have been similar or worse.
There appears to be a specific rule that the Patriots specifically broke. That is a huge problem for the integrity of game, no matter wether it was benign or not.
I agree with those above that the NFL will obfuscate the findings in a manner that deflects guilt, otherwise they will have to make the Patriots pay, and that won't make anyone happy ever
Good point, the Pats never have to pay...
Quote:
Instead, Goodell imposed the biggest fine ever on a coach -- it represents 12 percent of Belichick's scheduled 2007 salary, which is believed to be $4.2 million -- and took away a first-round draft pick as a penalty for the first time in NFL history.
The league has rules about the PSI level the ball MUST be between.
Do they have rules about the feel or other attributes of the ball that Eli (or Brad Johnson) are breaking?
Serious question, I don't know if they do.
The relevance is that both things make it easier to throw the ball. Yes, techically 1 is allowed and the other is against the rules, but it appears to be a somewhat arbitrary line.
(just like video-taping your opponents play calling signals) why in history has no other team complained about it?
Did they complain but the league said no big deal?
Did they complain and it just wasn't made public?
People love to say "everyone does it" but no one in history had ever been caught for either infraction (to the best of my knowledge)
Same reason it's a bigger story that Arod or Bonds used roids than it is that half of the players in the minors are sticking needles in their a$$. Success breeds jealousy and makes it a much bigger story.
It's not worth it to make accusations like this against the Jags or Raiders or Redskins or 75% of NFL teams.
(just like video-taping your opponents play calling signals) why in history has no other team complained about it?
Did they complain but the league said no big deal?
Did they complain and it just wasn't made public?
People love to say "everyone does it" but no one in history had ever been caught for either infraction (to the best of my knowledge)
Everyone manipulates the balls (especially Brett and Davisian) to some extent so that's why it's never brought up. I really think behind the scenes Irsay had something to do with the story being reported.
The worst instance of screwing around with footballs was a team (I won't name it) during my college years that used to put a broken popsicle stick into the grass during field goals and extra points. The idea was to give the ball a bit of height off the grass making the kick easier and giving the ball more height off the foot.
and Raiders have routinely been busted for this, but we don't hear about it because they're lousy teams.
Ok. Sure. Keep telling yourself that.
Have they been busted? Probably depends on your definition of "busted", but I wouldn't be shocked if the Refs have "caught" them with underinflated balls.
If you think the Pats success over the last 15 years has nothing to do with this blowing up as it has, then I have a bridge for sale.
pj, no offense but I think you're being willfully naive if you're going to sit there and say you think this is the first time any team has ever done something like this.
pj, no offense but I think you're being willfully naive if you're going to sit there and say you think this is the first time any team has ever done something like this.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's the first time someone has been caught doing it. As far as I know. I just don't have the same firsthand knowledge that some of you do to say "everyone does it". And messing with the ball is different than adjusting the PSI which there is a specific rule about.
some balls were under inflated then a rule was broken. When you break some rules you get fined and some are more severe. What penalty are you suggesting?
pj, no offense but I think you're being willfully naive if you're going to sit there and say you think this is the first time any team has ever done something like this.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's the first time someone has been caught doing it. As far as I know. I just don't have the same firsthand knowledge that some of you do to say "everyone does it". And messing with the ball is different than adjusting the PSI which there is a specific rule about.
That's one way to look at it. The other is to try to understand why the rule exists in the first place. In this case it seems as though the main advantage gained by underinflating a ball is that it's easier for the QB to grip and throw.
Which then begs the question, why is that disallowed, but other (simple) methods of making the ball easier to grip allowed? And which method provides the greater advantage?
since it's not "such a big deal", if the Patriots would mind if the Seahawks doctored the balls only they use, without regard to existing rules, in the Superbowl.
pj, no offense but I think you're being willfully naive if you're going to sit there and say you think this is the first time any team has ever done something like this.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's the first time someone has been caught doing it. As far as I know. I just don't have the same firsthand knowledge that some of you do to say "everyone does it". And messing with the ball is different than adjusting the PSI which there is a specific rule about.
USC got fined a whopping $25K when it got caught a few years ago deflating balls...
pj, no offense but I think you're being willfully naive if you're going to sit there and say you think this is the first time any team has ever done something like this.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's the first time someone has been caught doing it. As far as I know. I just don't have the same firsthand knowledge that some of you do to say "everyone does it". And messing with the ball is different than adjusting the PSI which there is a specific rule about.
I'm not saying everyone does it every game I am just pretty sure the Pats were not the first.
It is what it is. Is anyone going to asterisk their trophy if they win it?
RE: RE: The only relevant issue is wether the Patriots broke a rule
Doesn't matter if it was a stupid rule, or others do it or did it or other things that may have been similar or worse.
There appears to be a specific rule that the Patriots specifically broke. That is a huge problem for the integrity of game, no matter wether it was benign or not.
I agree with those above that the NFL will obfuscate the findings in a manner that deflects guilt, otherwise they will have to make the Patriots pay, and that won't make anyone happy ever
Good point, the Pats never have to pay...
Quote:
Instead, Goodell imposed the biggest fine ever on a coach -- it represents 12 percent of Belichick's scheduled 2007 salary, which is believed to be $4.2 million -- and took away a first-round draft pick as a penalty for the first time in NFL history.
Spygate penalties - ( New Window )
Finding guilt and penalizing the Pats is lose-lose.
It maligns the game. It reflects poorly on a very succesful franchise that others emulate (or try to). And a penalty will always be considered unfair by Pats fans, and too leinient by everyone else.
Because it probably happens often that it's OK. It's cheating. It's taking the equipment and altering it to your advantage. I'm a guy who never gave a flying fuck about steroid use, but despised players who corked their bat or scuffed up the baseball. To some the difference is inconsequential. To me it's monumental.
I'm sorry but altering the football.... in the game of football... is a very big deal to me.
I wonder what the reaction would be if the Giants got caught doing this...
Mine would be the same. If it's proven they should be punished. Who really believes their team doesn't have to acknowledge and play by established rules or pay the consequences?
I wonder what the reaction would be if the Giants got caught doing this...
It would be the same. A rule is a rule. If you don't like the rule or think it's stupid is irrelevant. I don't like that illegal contact results in an automatic first down, but I don't think that the Giants should be exempt from enforcement of it.
that the organization that:
1. has a Masters with Summa Cum Spygate honors;
2. and also has a Magna Cum Murderer;
3. a pre-SB Summa Cum non-handshake by its QB,
4. and a post-SB Magna Cum Pout by its HC,
5. and a variety of 'legal' though highly irregular and or questionable actions(and possibly 1 or 2 that were not slipping in),
could possibly be guilty of obtaining an advantage in the
conference CHAMPIONSHIP GAME, after 10 years of often coming close to another window closing era for its key player and HC?
Shirley, you jest(even if found guilty, they sell sell the paraphenalia so they will just get a slap on the penis[ and that is not punishment because they wank their own penis's regularly]).
Because I know what the reaction would be and I know there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage over it. The vast majority of the posters who are annoyed and think it's a big deal would completely change their stance if it were the Giants.
Peter King 7 minutes ago
Three things about the deflated football issue:
1 Its likely, but not certain, that discipline will be deferred till after Super Bowl.
2 Some info about what NFL knows could come out later today or tmrw.
3 Very impt element felt by NFL: 31 other teams watching intently.
By the way how did the claim "Everyone does this" come about?
There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
Because I know what the reaction would be and I know there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage over it. The vast majority of the posters who are annoyed and think it's a big deal would completely change their stance if it were the Giants.
We'd need 400 ambulances for all the broken ankles...
I think there would be a massive dropoff in the "this is a big deal" crowd and a spike in the "it's not a big deal" crowd if that were the case.
No doubt in my mind.
Interesting question and i am sure some would move their stance. I would not be as vocal about it, but i would be more disappointed about them doing it. I keep coming back to this claim of everyone doing it. I have yet to see everyone claiming they do it, only 2 so far
So living in New England and having grown to hate the Deflatriots...
I'm loving it. It is all they are talking about on sports radio. They keep making excuses and the world is out to get us....blah, blah, blah. Tom Brady laughed about it on Monday. He is complicit also. Absolutely no Super Bowl talk because of this...love it. Go Seadderall Seahawks!
There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ... The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Because I know what the reaction would be and I know there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage over it. The vast majority of the posters who are annoyed and think it's a big deal would completely change their stance if it were the Giants.
Maybe not. Have you seen how many anti-Giants Giants fans have inundated this site since our last SB win?
I think there would be a massive dropoff in the "this is a big deal" crowd and a spike in the "it's not a big deal" crowd if that were the case.
No doubt in my mind.
Interesting question and i am sure some would move their stance. I would not be as vocal about it, but i would be more disappointed about them doing it. I keep coming back to this claim of everyone doing it. I have yet to see everyone claiming they do it, only 2 so far
They had to institute the K Balls because teams were constantly fucking around with balls. That is the exact reason they did that.
There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Plenty of other questions remains, but it appears that the NFL has determined that: (1) the balls were properly inspected before the game; and (2) theres no reason to believe the officials should have noticed anything unusual. Link - ( New Window )
Plenty of other questions remains, but it appears that the NFL has determined that: (1) the balls were properly inspected before the game; and (2) theres no reason to believe the officials should have noticed anything unusual. Link - ( New Window )
Regarding the weather effect the weight, i think that somewhat gets neutered with the fact that there was 1 ball that was the proper weight
There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
Did you miss the article about Eli doctoring balls?
I think there would be a massive dropoff in the "this is a big deal" crowd and a spike in the "it's not a big deal" crowd if that were the case.
No doubt in my mind.
Interesting question and i am sure some would move their stance. I would not be as vocal about it, but i would be more disappointed about them doing it. I keep coming back to this claim of everyone doing it. I have yet to see everyone claiming they do it, only 2 so far
They had to institute the K Balls because teams were constantly fucking around with balls. That is the exact reason they did that.
That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
Did you miss the article about Eli doctoring balls?
Yeah i must have, you have a link to it? The article the Times published back in 2013 (i think) involved practice balls and how the staff requires a couple weeks to get them right for him. Game balls are delivered by the manufacturer just before gametime
so you think Eli uses scuffed up balls for practice
Quote:
That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
Where there K balls before the rule change? If every team does doctor the balls in so many different ways to their QBs liking why would you question that some/all stray over some strange line in the sand, ie ... pressure?
RE: so you think Eli uses scuffed up balls for practice
Quote:
That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
Where there K balls before the rule change? If every team does doctor the balls in so many different ways to their QBs liking why would you question that some/all stray over some strange line in the sand, ie ... pressure?
From what i can tell, the issue that created the rule change to the K-Balls in 1998 had to deal with Kickers messing with the balls, not QBs
Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Actually, it just proves the Colts did not reduce the air pressure in this particular game. Says nothing about other games this season or doctoring the ball in other ways.
Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Actually, it just proves the Colts did not reduce the air pressure in this particular game. Says nothing about other games this season or doctoring the ball in other ways.
So they decided this game was not important enough to do it? A rainy cold game where doctored balls would help? Just do it for the less important games, not the ones that could help you get to the SB?...Ok then..
Does it. I just read an article about Aaron Rodgers liking the ball as pumped up as possible. Plus the Colts footballs were fine. So everybody bringing up how the Pats shouldn't get penalized because every team does it is just flat out wrong.
The Patriots were cheating. It's the 2nd time they have been caught. It probably didn't effect the game, but they should face serious penalty. If Richard Sherman failed a drug test in 2011 for performance enhancing drugs and then failed one this week he wouldn't be playing in the Super Bowl. Everybody would be saying he is a POS and that he's cheating. This is essentially the same thing except a failed PED test is effecting one player. The shit that the Pats have been caught doing effects entire games.
Quote:
That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
Where there K balls before the rule change? If every team does doctor the balls in so many different ways to their QBs liking why would you question that some/all stray over some strange line in the sand, ie ... pressure?
From what i can tell, the issue that created the rule change to the K-Balls in 1998 had to deal with Kickers messing with the balls, not QBs
What the hell is the difference? It shows how common it was for balls to be altered. The next step is that all balls will now be regulated full time.
Quote:
That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
Where there K balls before the rule change? If every team does doctor the balls in so many different ways to their QBs liking why would you question that some/all stray over some strange line in the sand, ie ... pressure?
From what i can tell, the issue that created the rule change to the K-Balls in 1998 had to deal with Kickers messing with the balls, not QBs
What the hell is the difference? It shows how common it was for balls to be altered. The next step is that all balls will now be regulated full time.
Yeah 16 years ago it shows it. Has nothing to do with the current system of how the game balls are utilized. Granted 16 years ago the Kickers doctored balls, not arguing that point. Has nothing to do with what occurred on Sunday
for cheating. It was an obvious advantage and a fine doesn't cut it. The game was 45-7. A ball that was easier to catch, easier to throw, easier to palm while running.
If the proper punishment isn't enforced by Goodell this will send the message you can cheat in the playoffs pay a fine which you would happily pay to win the Superbowl. What's a fine or loss of a draft pick compared to getting in the big game.
There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Its called Guy-Lussac's Law
P = p(T/t) constant volume and amount of gas, T in
What temperature would lead to a drop of pressure from 13.5 to 11.5?
t = (273+50)*11.5/113.5
RE: IMHO the game should be played over or they should be disqualified
for cheating. It was an obvious advantage and a fine doesn't cut it. The game was 45-7. A ball that was easier to catch, easier to throw, easier to palm while running.
If the proper punishment isn't enforced by Goodell this will send the message you can cheat in the playoffs pay a fine which you would happily pay to win the Superbowl. What's a fine or loss of a draft pick compared to getting in the big game.
Stop...
RE: IMHO the game should be played over or they should be disqualified
for cheating. It was an obvious advantage and a fine doesn't cut it. The game was 45-7. A ball that was easier to catch, easier to throw, easier to palm while running.
If the proper punishment isn't enforced by Goodell this will send the message you can cheat in the playoffs pay a fine which you would happily pay to win the Superbowl. What's a fine or loss of a draft pick compared to getting in the big game.
Sources told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter on Wednesday that the Colts had concerns about underinflated balls after their regular-season game against the visiting Patriots on Nov. 16.
During that game, Colts safety Mike Adams twice intercepted Tom Brady and gave the balls to the Colts' equipment manager to save -- and both times there were concerns about the balls feeling underinflated, sources told Schefter.
Those sources said the Colts raised concerns to the league, which was aware of the issue going into this weekend's AFC title game.
There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Its called Guy-Lussac's Law
P = p(T/t) constant volume and amount of gas, T in
What temperature would lead to a drop of pressure from 13.5 to 11.5?
t = (273+50)*11.5/113.5
Sphinx posted above that the NFL did a test and found that cold air did indeed drop pressure. I could see this if it was a small amount under the rules, but 2 lbs of lost pressure due to weather does not fit that equation. Also i keep coming back to the 12th ball not having the 2 lb drop
for cheating. It was an obvious advantage and a fine doesn't cut it. The game was 45-7. A ball that was easier to catch, easier to throw, easier to palm while running.
If the proper punishment isn't enforced by Goodell this will send the message you can cheat in the playoffs pay a fine which you would happily pay to win the Superbowl. What's a fine or loss of a draft pick compared to getting in the big game.
This is idiotic.
Yeah, the under-inflated balls did not cause the Colts to lose by 38 points. It was not the deciding factor in that win. Let the SB be played, give the punishment out (if there is any) after the season
why is the European Central Bank getting involved (per Bloomberg)?
Actually 2 degrees Kelvin (273K = 0C = 32F) but props to you for bringing up Gay-Lussac's law. That being said, GL's law wouldn't have accounted for nearly the amount of pressure decrease we saw because the temperature wasn't nearly cold enough. The Pats definitely cheated, again
There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Its called Guy-Lussac's Law
P = p(T/t) constant volume and amount of gas, T in
What temperature would lead to a drop of pressure from 13.5 to 11.5?
t = (273+50)*11.5/113.5
Sphinx posted above that the NFL did a test and found that cold air did indeed drop pressure. I could see this if it was a small amount under the rules, but 2 lbs of lost pressure due to weather does not fit that equation. Also i keep coming back to the 12th ball not having the 2 lb drop
You would need conditions like the Ice Bowl or the Giants-Packers 2007 NFC Championship for the temperature to decrease the internal air pressure of the football that much. STP is 20 degrees Celsius or 68 degrees Fahrenheit; the temperature in New England that day was 51 degrees or 10.6 degrees C. 10 degrees difference in temperature (Centigrade) isn't enough to produce a pressure difference inside the ball that drastic. Now for Ice Bowl II (where it was -3F or -19C), it is possible
Because I know what the reaction would be and I know there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage over it. The vast majority of the posters who are annoyed and think it's a big deal would completely change their stance if it were the Giants.
I for one am not outraged, but I do think it's a big deal. I think I'd have the same reaction if it were our boys, but you might be right.
To me this is a case of the media making a story more than it is
:-).
Just for the 'this is no big deal crowd', since the score was 14-0 at the time, and ended 45-7:
Here is a real what if:
Down 14-0 possibly due to an illegal advantage, the -0- team has to modify their strategies to get back even.
Had all things been equal or at least closer on the scoreboard, likely all the play calls by Colts would have been different, possibly less risky, since they would not be trying to catch up.Possibly the Colts might have actually had a lead, made a key 3rd down stop, etc.
Apparently this was a known issue back in November
the Colts' suspicions date back to their Nov. 16 game against New England, a 42-20 Patriots win. In that game, Indianapolis safety Mike Adams intercepted two passes and handed both balls to the Colts' equipment manager to hold as souvenirs. Both balls, Schefter's sources say, were noticeably underinflated.
:-).
Just for the 'this is no big deal crowd', since the score was 14-0 at the time, and ended 45-7:
Here is a real what if:
Down 14-0 possibly due to an illegal advantage, the -0- team has to modify their strategies to get back even.
Had all things been equal or at least closer on the scoreboard, likely all the play calls by Colts would have been different, possibly less risky, since they would not be trying to catch up.Possibly the Colts might have actually had a lead, made a key 3rd down stop, etc.
I'd love to know what strategy change would have stopped them from getting blown off the ball or trucked by LeGarette Blount. The Colts were curbstomped in every aspect of that football game. With or without the football.
RE: Apparently this was a known issue back in November
the Colts' suspicions date back to their Nov. 16 game against New England, a 42-20 Patriots win. In that game, Indianapolis safety Mike Adams intercepted two passes and handed both balls to the Colts' equipment manager to hold as souvenirs. Both balls, Schefter's sources say, were noticeably underinflated.
Link - ( New Window )
that was a known issue about 20 posts ago :)
I don't think the deflated balls swung the game one way or another
the Colts' suspicions date back to their Nov. 16 game against New England, a 42-20 Patriots win. In that game, Indianapolis safety Mike Adams intercepted two passes and handed both balls to the Colts' equipment manager to hold as souvenirs. Both balls, Schefter's sources say, were noticeably underinflated.
And as noted on a previous post, the league was notified and the league did squat. I don't understand how these "tightly controlled" balls can be taken out of play on a whim by a player and, I presume, substituted for from the backup ball supply.
And ... this from the Rule Book ... did it happen?
Quote:
In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball.
Johnson said on PFT Live that he resents the stories that came out this morning suggesting that he bribed ball boys to tamper with footballs before the Super Bowl. Johnson told Mike Florio that he and the other quarterback in that Super Bowl, Oaklands Rich Gannon, talked about it beforehand and both agreed that they didnt want to play with the slick, brand-new balls that the NFL was using for the Super Bowl. Johnson said he didnt personally tamper with the footballs, but he did pay the people who had the balls to break them in and make them easier to handle.
Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Where are you seeing the Colts' footballs have actually been checked?
As 'Deflategate' unfolds, we find doctoring footballs is nothing new
The more quarterbacks I talk to, and the more you read past stories and interviews that reference, however casually, the various degrees of inflation or distress many quarterbacks prefer from their game balls, the more it appears to me as a somewhat accepted part of the subculture.
Mangini was a former angry employee with the Pats who decided to become Eric "The Bull" Gravano and rat out Belichick. What a disgrace. And it was another practice likely conducted by most teams...
And let's face it. This wouldn't be Belichick's doing, it would be Brady's...undoubtedly.
The media loath Belichick, and they are chomping at the bit to knock him down pegs. So this is the perfect storm entering the Super Bowl.They are being relentless.
Here's hoping Belichick has the last laugh and finally wins his 4th SB. And they do it by never passing the ball... ;)
you had zero problem with spygate? The league destroyed the tapes, they wouldn't have destroyed the tapes if it wasn't a big deal. You have no problem with another team taping the walkthrough of another? Really?
you had zero problem with spygate? The league destroyed the tapes, they wouldn't have destroyed the tapes if it wasn't a big deal. You have no problem with another team taping the walkthrough of another? Really?
The Pats did not tape any walkthough. That was an allegation even retracted by the Boston Herald. They taped hand signals from a position deemed unfair...whatever the means...
Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Where are you seeing the Colts' footballs have actually been checked?
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
you had zero problem with spygate? The league destroyed the tapes, they wouldn't have destroyed the tapes if it wasn't a big deal. You have no problem with another team taping the walkthrough of another? Really?
The Pats did not tape any walkthough. That was an allegation even retracted by the Boston Herald. They taped hand signals from a position deemed unfair...whatever the means...
I don't believe that they didn't tape (or at least have someone watch) the walkthrough, and neither does Marshall Faulk or Mike Martz. The NFL swept that whole thing under the rug pretty quickly, and it still smells.
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
Why would you apply common sense logic to anything coordinated by this current NFL front office?
said that Marshall Faulk has told him directly that one day he is going to explode about what went on during that Super Bowl after being tight lipped about it for so long. Francesa didn't say those exact words but he said it at the beginning of his show today
you had zero problem with spygate? The league destroyed the tapes, they wouldn't have destroyed the tapes if it wasn't a big deal. You have no problem with another team taping the walkthrough of another? Really?
The Pats did not tape any walkthough. That was an allegation even retracted by the Boston Herald. They taped hand signals from a position deemed unfair...whatever the means...
I don't believe that they didn't tape (or at least have someone watch) the walkthrough, and neither does Marshall Faulk or Mike Martz. The NFL swept that whole thing under the rug pretty quickly, and it still smells.
And why should I believe Martz and Faulk? They lost. This is a convenient excuse...
to believe the Patriots all of the time, even though they continue to be the only team who ever get themselves into trouble with this stuff.
That rams game will always smell. That patriots team wasn't anywhere near the team the Rams were and they seemingly knew the plays before they were even run. They weren't just whipping them up front, they were a step ahead mentally the entire game it seemed.
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
Why would you apply common sense logic to anything coordinated by this current NFL front office?
Given the fact they have had a brutal year by not employing common sense, that this is the second time Pats have been accused, and the fact of the magnitude of this game, I'm going to assume they would be ultra careful with this one. Believe me, if they did not do that it will come out very quickly as a defense by the Pats
to believe the Patriots all of the time, even though they continue to be the only team who ever get themselves into trouble with this stuff.
That rams game will always smell. That patriots team wasn't anywhere near the team the Rams were and they seemingly knew the plays before they were even run. They weren't just whipping them up front, they were a step ahead mentally the entire game it seemed.
Yeah for a team that has what many consider to be the smartest HC in the game, they sure as shit seem to get caught doing some really dumb things. Makes me always question how much other shit they are always pulling we don't know about
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Good point about NE's run. Only question i would have for JJ is if that is the case, why did they do it then? It seems like there are accepted levels of gamesmanship that everyone overlooks, and that the Pats have been caught pushing the envelope on those levels. You freaking own the Colts, no one even expected them there, you match-up very strongly against them, so you then just to get an added edge you go past a level that is widely accepted? It just seems so unnecessary
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Good point about NE's run. Only question i would have for JJ is if that is the case, why did they do it then? It seems like there are accepted levels of gamesmanship that everyone overlooks, and that the Pats have been caught pushing the envelope on those levels. You freaking own the Colts, no one even expected them there, you match-up very strongly against them, so you then just to get an added edge you go past a level that is widely accepted? It just seems so unnecessary
If all you get from filming a walkthrough is to see what personnel are included in certain formations, that's something. And even if that information is exactly what you would've expected, that info's worth something too. Probably not a lot, but I would argue better than nothing. And when the Super Bowl hangs in the balance, every potential advantage looms large.
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
There's a reason why Tom Coughlin conducted his walkthrough for SB 42 in almost complete secrecy
Have to wonder if he sees this as an opportunity to rectify his image a bit. Come down hard on NFL villain #1 and maybe people will forget the job he's done over the past year.
Maybe he'll even subject us to some crappy commercials on the subject.
What about the gave vs the Ravens... Since the Colts accused them earlier in the season, it would not be too much of a stretch to assume they did it in other games as well.
balls in Colts' possession were tested and found to be within spec
and, yeah, this is Brady, why do it unless Tom says I'll be more comfortable in the rain and these temps with a softer ball
Francessa saying the remedy has to be to suspend BB for this game (and more?) and Pats give their first pick to the Colts. That would be a wow, a bit much.
Has anyone in this thread theorized how much of a difference this would make to a QB? I guess if it's in your head that it's more comfortable and to your advantage, in and of itself, that's an edge. Then there is the principle of tampering with the rules. Technical or substantive?
Not discredit the impact brady has on all this being he knowingly broke the rule....let me guess his hands are to be wiped clean because it's an unwritten rule....like someone mentioned earlier the pine tar rule that Pineda was crucified and put on the front page for . it seems to be common practice in the MLB. ( although blatant)
There could be a heavy penalty coming for New England
in the PGA you would be disqualified from that match. Mark Brunnel said after gripping that same ball he could throw it ten yards further and categorized it as a huge difference.
The cold weather was a factor. I think Luck should be calling out Brady on this one. If all that becomes of it is a fine, Giants should do it every game next year and mail in the check at the end of the season. Who cares.
balls in Colts' possession were tested and found to be within spec
and, yeah, this is Brady, why do it unless Tom says I'll be more comfortable in the rain and these temps with a softer ball
Francessa saying the remedy has to be to suspend BB for this game (and more?) and Pats give their first pick to the Colts. That would be a wow, a bit much.
Has anyone in this thread theorized how much of a difference this would make to a QB? I guess if it's in your head that it's more comfortable and to your advantage, in and of itself, that's an edge. Then there is the principle of tampering with the rules. Technical or substantive?
The NFL stepped in at halftime and adjusted the ball pressure. Ironically, Brady's second half numbers were considerably better than his first half.
If Belichick gets hit, it's because he's covering for Brady. And the league's fall guy here. Brady would clearly be the guilty party. I've seen Pats' practices where Belichick is spraying water on the ball to make the ball slippery for the center and QB, trying to simulate bad weather. So I don't think he's even remotely tied to this...
Ideally, the result should be this: fine Brady, warn the Pats organization, move on...
said that Marshall Faulk has told him directly that one day he is going to explode about what went on during that Super Bowl after being tight lipped about it for so long. Francesa didn't say those exact words but he said it at the beginning of his show today
If you work for ESPN or NFL you cannot talk about spygate
RE: For all the people saying they would have won easily regardless...
What about the gave vs the Ravens... Since the Colts accused them earlier in the season, it would not be too much of a stretch to assume they did it in other games as well.
Exactly... if it gave just enough of an unfair advantage to win just 1 game as a result of the advantage, they wouldnt have been #1 seed... and possibly they could have had to play away instead of at home in the playoffs. Would that have effected them making it to the SB?
Those saying it wouldnt have effected the outcome of the Colts game (while they are most probably right), they're missing the bigger picture.
Faulk should be more pissed that Martz only let him touch the ball...
That would have to be driven by the quarterback, Madden told The Sports Xchange on Wednesday. Thats something that wouldnt be driven by a coach or just the equipment guy. Nobody, not even the head coach, would do anything to a football unilaterally, such as adjust the amount of pressure in a ball, without the quarterback not knowing. It would have to be the quarterbacks idea. PFT - ( New Window )
People defending Will Hill kept saying, "it's only pot. Who cares?" Many others countered with, "that's not the point. He broke the rules as well as the trust of his team, that's the issue, not the pot."
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
People defending Will Hill kept saying, "it's only pot. Who cares?" Many others countered with, "that's not the point. He broke the rules as well as the trust of his team, that's the issue, not the pot."
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
People defending Will Hill kept saying, "it's only pot. Who cares?" Many others countered with, "that's not the point. He broke the rules as well as the trust of his team, that's the issue, not the pot."
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
Just askin'
If John Madden's opinion is valid, "It would have to be the quarterbacks idea", has Brady lost the trust of his team, including the coach and the owner?
IMO, Madden is off base here - given the control freak he is, there is no way BB didn't know what was going on. Maybe it wasn't his idea, but he had to have known about the plan...
BB would have to give his approval - if he didn't want it to happen, he would have told Brady no way...
The only person who had to know the balls were deflated, aside from the person doing the deflating if it wasn't Brady himself, was Brady, the passer. The rest is conjecture.
BB would have to give his approval - if he didn't want it to happen, he would have told Brady no way...
The only person who had to know the balls were deflated, aside from the person doing the deflating if it wasn't Brady himself, was Brady, the passer. The rest is conjecture.
Agreed - that's why in my first post I said "IMO"
The Patriots should be punished to the maximum extent possible.
The Patriots are habitual line-steppers, Canty said during an in-studio appearance. If the allegations are true, then you are talking about attacking the integrity of our game and I have an issue with that. . . . [W]hat Im going to say about the deflating of the balls, to me there is no difference than performance-enhancing drugs. You are cheating at that point. You are getting a competitive advantage outside of the rule book and there has to be some sort of consequences for that.
Cantys opinion sounds a lot like the NFLs position that, when it comes to topics impacting the integrity of the game, serious action is required.
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said. You want to be successful as a player but you want to think that you are doing things that are within the rules and that you are out there competing and its not, whether it is performance-enhancing drugs or deflated footballs that is out there aiding in your performance"
Quote:
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said.
The integrity of the game, in this respect, was lost when the league allowed the balls to be doctored by each team and allowed each team to use their own set of doctored balls. Yes, I know this doctoring is different from that doctoring by way of an as yet unexplained reason by the league rule. I wonder if Canty was aware of what was done to footballs between when they arrived at the teams stadium and when they hit the playing field.
Quote:
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said.
The integrity of the game, in this respect, was lost when the league allowed the balls to be doctored by each team and allowed each team to use their own set of doctored balls. Yes, I know this doctoring is different from that doctoring by way of an as yet unexplained reason by the league rule. I wonder if Canty was aware of what was done to footballs between when they arrived at the teams stadium and when they hit the playing field.
Agreed.
But not only that, there are QBs who don't like the softer ball and some he prefer an even firmer ball. I get the sense this PSI setting was an arbitrary number based on some general opinions. I think the real thing QBs want in a ball is the feel of the surface, not the tenderness of the ball...
Bart Hubbuch retweeted
D. Orlando Ledbetter @DOrlandoAJC 12m12 minutes ago
Fox analyst Troy Aikman: I cant imagine that Tom Brady did not knowmy guess is that it was his request. #DeflateGate
It's weird that no other team has ever been caught doing this...
...in the entire history of the NFL. Personally, I think it's unlikely that the Patriots are the only ones to think of the idea of deflating a ball on a cold wet day and then doing it.
That leads me to think that it's a lot more prevalent then people are letting on (like majority of teams prevalent), and the Colts GM is the first person to complain about it.
I am not excusing the Patriots at all, but maybe this is more like a George Brett pine tar situation?
I also think, based on some recent stuff I read, that the Patriots probably gave the officials underinflated balls to inspect and the officials ok'd them without checking the PSI.
Steelers president Art Rooney II is one of those wondering why a league that micromanages the color of shoes and the height of socks doesnt make sure that such a key piece of equipment is standardized for all involved. Rooney said that he doesnt think the deflated ball controversy is on the scale of serious, though he thinks the league will do something if they find rules have been broken, and he doesnt think its necessary for the league to put itself at risk of future issues on this front.
The one thing I would say is this rule where we use two different sets of balls is relatively new, and frankly Im not sure why we came to this conclusion. I assume this will be something that the Competition Committee looks at, Rooney said, via the leagues website. But as far as Im concerned, I think we all ought to use the same balls and not have each side have their own footballs available to them. Thats just my view of it, but it seems to be simpler to just have one set of balls, which was the case for many years where the officials brought the balls out and everybody used the same balls. It seems like that would be an easy answer to this.
* Highlight added. Curious. I think the fans are entitled to know when and why it came about. Rooney can just ask the team's rep on the Competition Committee, assuming there was one at the time, the fans have to rely on the NFL.
Link below. They seem to disregard that it's a rule and do not consider how many other games the Pats played with deflated balls. They just focus on the score of the one game. Chalk it up to fan loyalty. 19-0 18-1.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 43s44 seconds ago
It really does sound like Bill Belichick is leaving this for a certain Tom Brady to deal with...
Ralph Vacchiano @RVacchianoNYDN 1m1 minute ago
Only one remaining question about DeflateGate: Who is Bill Belichick throwing under the bus? Because it sure sounded like it's Tom Brady.
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 2m2 minutes ago
Amazes me how Bill Belichick has done nothing to deflect the speculation that will now beswirling around his QB. Fascinating strategy.
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 49s49 seconds ago
Obviously now the focus shifts to Tom Brady and what he has to say about Deflategate. Brady speaks tomorrow. Stay tuned
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 1m1 minute ago
It does kinda make sense to blame Brady doesn't it? No way league takes action against the guy who makes Pats worth watching before SB.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 11s12 seconds ago
Summary of Belichick Q&A: "I've told you everything I know. I have no explanation."
keithlaw @keithlaw 18s19 seconds ago
New dish post - recapping this week's episode of @BravoTopChef: http://klaw.me/1yJc4IA
Ross Tucker @RossTuckerNFL 38s39 seconds ago
Today was Belichick. Tomorrow is Brady. Saturday the Ball Boy?
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 42s43 seconds ago
My guess: set up perfectly for Tom Brady to now say he never told anyone to deflate balls to certain PSI, someone took in their own hands
ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 2m2 minutes ago
Here's the full transcript of Bill Belichick's lengthy statement about #DeflateGate http://wp.me/p14QSB-9GYy
When I came in Monday morning I was shocked to learn of the news reports about the footballs. I had no knowledge whatsoever about this situation until Monday morning. Ive learned a lot more about this process in the last three days than I knew or had talked about in the last 40 years that Ive coached in this league. I had no knowledge of the various steps involved in the game balls, the process that happened between when they were prepared and went to the officials and went to the game, so Ive learned a lot about that. Obviously, I understand that each team has the opportunity to prepare the balls the way they want, give them to the officials, and the game officials either approve or disapprove the balls, and that really was the end of it for me, until I learned a little bit more about it the last couple days.
Let me just say that my personal coaching philosophy, my mentality, has always been to make things as difficult as possible for players in practice, and so with regard to footballs, Im sure that any current or past player of mine would tell you that the balls we practice with are as bad as they can be. Wet, sticky, cold, slippery, whatever. However bad we can make them, I make them. Any time that players complain about the quality of the footballs, I make them worse, and that stops the complaining. So we never use the condition of the footballs as an excuse. We play with whatever, or kick with whatever we have to use, and thats the way it is. That has never been a priority for me, and I want the players to deal with the harder situation in practice than theyll ever have to deal with in a game. Maybe thats part of our whole ball security philosophy.
Im trying to coach the team and thats what I want to do. I think we all know that quarterbacks, kickers, specialists have certain preferences on the footballs. They know a lot more than I do. Theyre more sensitive to it than I am. I hear them comment on it from time to time, but I can tell you and they will tell you that theres never any sympathy whatsoever from me on that subject. Toms personal preferences on his footballs are something that he can talk about in much better detail and information than I could possibly provide.
I can tell you that in my entire coaching career I have never talked to any player, staff member about football air pressure. That is not a subject that I have ever brought up. To me, the footballs are approved by the league and game officials pre-game, and we play with whats out there. And thats the only way that I have ever thought about that.
Ive learned about the inflation range situation, obviously, with our footballs being inflated to the twelve and a half pound range, any deflation would then take us under that specification limit. Knowing that now, in the future we will certainly inflate the footballs above that low level to account for any possible change during the game. As an example, if a ball deflated from 13.2 to 12.9, it wouldnt matter, but if it deflated from 12.5 to 12.3, it would as an example. So we will take steps in the future to make sure we dont put ourselves in that type of potential situation again.
The National Football League is investigating the situation. We have cooperated fully, quickly and completely with every request that they have made, continue to be cooperative in any way that we can. I have no explanation for what happened, and thats what theyre looking into, so I cant comment on what theyre doing. Thats something that you should talk to them about. Again, my overall knowledge of football specifications, the overall process that happens on game day with the footballs, is very limited. I would say that during the course of the game, I honestly never it probably has happened on an incomplete pass or something Ive never touched a game ball. Thats not something that I have any familiarity with on that. And again, I was completely and totally unaware of any of this that were talking about in the last couple days, until Monday morning. Based on what I knew Sunday night, thinking back on this, which Ive done several times, I cant think of anything that I would have done differently, based on what I knew then, based on what I know now. Ive told you the one thing based on the initial start level of the football pressure, but thats really about it.
Its really unfortunate that this is a story coming off two great playoff victories by our football team and our players, but again weve been cooperative with the NFL investigation. Well continue to do so, and well turn all our attention, focus on the Seattle Seahawks. They are a very talented, tough football team. Weve spent the last four days, three days, with our preparations and so forth with the trip. Those are coming to a conclusion, were wrapping that up, and were starting our preparations today for the Seahawks and practicing through the weekend so well have a good, solid opportunity to get ourselves ready to go before we head down there.
Again, I have no further comment on the NFL investigation, and Ive told you all I know about the subject from my perspective. So thats where we are.
Art Stapleton retweeted
Jeff Howe @jeffphowe 4m4 minutes ago
New schedule: Tom Brady will now hit the podium today at 4 p.m. He was originally scheduled to talk tomorrow.
Chris Mortensen retweeted
tim hasselbeck @tthasselbeck 9m9 minutes ago
@RichCimini @JosinaAnderson no HC is part of football selection process. All QB & equipment staff. Across the board...every team.
Kimberly Jones @KimJonesSports 4m4 minutes ago
This would be completely impossible to believe: That some equipment guy or ball boy went rogue.
***********************************
Who, if anybody, has spoken to the ball attendants?
Chris Mortensen @mortreport 58s59 seconds ago
As silly as it sounds (spoke about it yesterday), the guys who handle footballs most - quarterbacks - have made this an issue for years.
Kevin Kernan retweeted
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 9m9 minutes ago
No doubt the best outcome for Pats is for Brady to take the hit. If coach implicated, major discipline at risk. If Brady owns it, a fine.
************************************
ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 28s28 seconds ago
On lighter note, Belichick was determined not to create a sound bite with "balls." Twice he made quick switch from "balls" to "footballs.
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 1m1 minute ago
While narrative for few hours will be that BB pushed Brady under the bus, I don't think that's way it ends up.
Seems like the plan to me.
Paul Schwartz @NYPost_Schwartz 1m1 minute ago Manhattan, NY
If I was that football handling Patriots ball boy, I'd be looking into retaining a lawyer right about now. It's all coming down on him.
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 15s15 seconds ago
Instant reaction to Belichick statement: there were lawyers...#deflated
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 1m1 minute ago
Brady steps to mic later today, says he never told anyone to do anything illegal and by 5 p.m. the Pats are on to Glendale.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 2m2 minutes ago Foxborough, MA
Belichick seemed to create multiple outs, hinted at need to inflate extra for weather as well. Interesting strategy overall.
something like I told the ballboy i liked the ball like this and he deflated the ball to much on his own....I had nothing to do with deflating the ball, i told him how i wanted the ball and he did it on his own...
'Deflating footballs may not be as easy as it sounds'
A person with intimate knowledge of the process told USA TODAY Sports the ball attendant is a uniformed official generally the same person each week at a given stadium who comes to the locker room to pick up the balls and takes them to the officials' locker room for testing.
The ball attendant delivers the balls to the ball boys usually four provided by the home team and two traveling with the visiting team who make sure their quarterback's preferred balls get into the game, said the person, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.
At halftime, the balls return to the officials' locker room, the person said. So, if proper protocol is followed, the only opportunity to manipulate the balls is minutes before kickoff or during the game on the sideline, where there's a risk of anyone in the stadium and dozens of TV cameras seeing it.
In 2006, Brady and Peyton Manning successfully lobbied the league to let every team provide its own footballs to use on offense. Prior to that, it was always the home team that supplied the footballs, which meant that road team quarterbacks didnt get to try the footballs out until pregame warmups.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 10 minutes ago Foxborough, MA
General feel of Pats locker room... Most guys took a few questions on deflation but really wanted to move on from those to football
As we process the I dont know, ask Tom explanation from Patriots coach Bill Belichick and await for Tom Brady to say something like I dont know, ask Bill, heres a question. Has anyone asked offensive coordinator Josh McDaniel anything?
[...]
Given McDaniels history and his role, he should be getting a lot more attention and scrutiny in #DeflateGate than he has. Even if its true that Belichick took the Sgt. Schulz approach to the condition of the footballs, its hard to think that McDaniels never bothered to consider the potential benefits to be derived from getting the balls into a specific shape that would make them easier for the quarterback to throw.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 5m5 minutes ago
Devin McCourty, do ppl judge Pats hard? "Theyve won a lot of games...Its easy to kind of create a reason why were winning games."
Ebenezer Samuel retweeted
Bill Simmons 5 hours ago
Q: If Brady liked footballs inflated to lowest legal level, knowing 2-3 hrs of ensuing cold weather deflated them more... is that cheating?
Ebenezer Samuel 16 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Patriots sent out select quotes from locker room. Those quotes just happen to not include any ball deflation comments...
Ebenezer Samuel 5 minutes ago Foxborough, MA
Aaaaand, Tom Brady's biiiiiig presser pushed back to 4:15. If Patriot PR was hoping to deflate media crowd some, highly unlikely.
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 16s16 seconds ago
Brady seems shaken.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 19s20 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Brady says he has a "process." Says when he picks the balls out they are "perfect".
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 14s14 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady are you a cheater? "I don't believe so. I have always played within the rules."
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 26s26 seconds ago
Brady says he didn't do anything different Sunday night than he usually does.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 36s36 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Brady: "That happened obviously on Sunday night"...he says of his process.
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 48s48 seconds ago
Brady sounds very contrite in his opening remarks. Somber. Reserved
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 12s12 seconds ago
Brady says "to me those balls are perfect" and he does not want any air put in or taken out. This jibes w/description an ex-Patriot gave me
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 19s19 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "Eveyone is obviously trying to figure out what happened. I was surprised as anybody when I heard about it monday."
Paul Schwartz @NYPost_Schwartz 19s19 seconds ago
Yup, the Patriots ball boys had better seek legal representation.
Ian Rapoport @RapSheet 11s12 seconds ago
#Patriots QB Tom Brady: I didnt alter the ball in any way. Says he wouldnt do anything to break the rules.
0
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 20s21 seconds ago
Brady: Breaking in footballs is like breaking in a baseball mitt.
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 24s25 seconds ago
Is Tom Brady a cheater: "I don't believe so... I believe in fair play and I respect the league."
0
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 32s33 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Brady: "from when I saw the ball five hours before halftime"...seems to indicate he has nothing to do with them after that.
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 59s60 seconds ago
Brady: "I was as surprised as anyone when I heard about it Monday morning." says he last saw the balls "five hours before halftime."
ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 1m1 minute ago
The inevitable "ball boy went rogue" defense won't fly in light of John Madden's simple yet compelling take from Wednesday.
Ralph Vacchiano @RVacchianoNYDN 5s5 seconds ago
A Patriots ball boy is about to mysteriously disappear ... RT @kevingarmstrong Brady says he saw the balls "five hours before halftime."
V
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 8s8 seconds ago
Brady said had "no thought or inkling" that the balls would be different from how they were pre-game
ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 15s15 seconds ago
Tom Brady: "I didn't alter the ball in any way" http://wp.me/p14QSB-9H03
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 16s16 seconds ago
Brady: "I have no knowledge of any wrong-doing ... I don't know what happened over the course of the process w the footballs."
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 24s24 seconds ago
Brady: "I like 'em at 12.5. That's a perfect grip for a football ... I would never do anything outside of the rules of play."
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 32s32 seconds ago
"No knowledge of any wrongdoing." Lawyer like. #Brady
0 replies 6 retweets 2 favorites
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ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 16s16 seconds ago
If Brady selects balls he deems to be perfect and ball boy then unilaterally deflates them, Brady would be upset, right?
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 17s17 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "Yeah, I have questions too...once I'm out on the field, I have no thougt of the football at that point."
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 19s19 seconds ago
Brady asked about saying he likes deflated balls. Says "I like 'em at 12.5 - I would never do anything outside the rules of play."
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 9s10 seconds ago
Has Brady tried to figure out why balls deflated? "I think there's a lot of people who have more information than me.. I have questions too"
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 16s17 seconds ago
Brady reiterates "the first I heard of this was Monday morning."
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 29s30 seconds ago
Some nervous equipment staffers and ballboys right now...
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 32s33 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "I think a big part of playing here is trying to ignore the outside forces and influences. Everybody is entitled to an opinion."
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 14s15 seconds ago
Brady on discussions among team: "Those are personal things with my teammates."
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 19s20 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady admits he did address team. Says they were "very personal things with my teammates."
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 22s22 seconds ago
Brady: "This is a very serious topic. The integrity of the sport is very important."
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 23s23 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady doesn't think this is a media thing fyi: "This is very serious. This is a very serious topic."
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 17s18 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Brady says in Monday radio interview, he thought this might be "sour grapes."
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 30s31 seconds ago
Of the 24 balls designated for the game. Says checked them pre-game and "thought they were perfect"
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 17s17 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "i felt like we won the game fair as square...that was a great feeling after the game."
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 20s20 seconds ago
Brady: "I felt like we won the game fair and square."
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 22s22 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "it's disappointing that a situation like this happens...it should be a great two weeks...I wish I could give you more answers."
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 7s7 seconds ago
Brady says he is unsure if the NFL investigators will approach him or not. Has no knowledge one way or the other if they will
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 39s40 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "I didn't feel any different" in how ball felt in game... "It was a very wet, cold, windy night."
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 49s50 seconds ago
Brady says it he doesn't "sit there and squeeze the ball" and "if that's what the Colts want to do" then that's what they can do
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 55s56 seconds ago
Tom Brady: "I did not recognize that. I did not notice between the first half and the second half."
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 11s12 seconds ago
Tom Brady on what he tells his concerned friends: "I tell them I'm gonna be ok. This isn't ISIS. People aren't dying."
Does anyone that understands football think that scuffing the balls to make them easier to grip or deflating them had any affect on the outcome of the Pats game? Does it have any affect on any game? I don't think so. In fact, I think the QBs should be allowed to scuff the balls up and to deflate them for a better grip. Let each team use the footballs they want. Provided they are the same size deflated, made of leather and filled only with air, I don't give a flying you know what how doctored they are. In fact, I'd encourage them to get their balls game-ready.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 30s30 seconds ago Massachusetts, USA
Checked to see if league office had reached out to Tom Brady regarding DeflateGate. League declined comment at this time.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 24s25 seconds ago Massachusetts, USA
World's strangest scandal could tarnish the career of arguably the finest quarterback in the history of NFL football. File that away.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 14m14 minutes ago Massachusetts, USA
So if Brady didn't do this but he did know ballboy who did, would Twitter court love him for handing kid in or hate him for squealing?
Ebenezer Samuel retweeted
Gary Myers @garymyersNYDN 21m21 minutes ago
One reason to believe Brady: The truth will come out. In this case, cover up would be worse than crime. He's got too much at stake to lie.
Ebenezer Samuel retweeted
Gary Myers @garymyersNYDN 21m21 minutes ago
One reason to believe Brady: The truth will come out. In this case, cover up would be worse than crime. He's got too much at stake to lie.
I asked Samuel whether the league would care if Brady lied to the press, so long as he told the truth to the league when they came around asking questions.
Ebenezer Samuel tweeted
Gary Myers @garymyersNYDN 21m21 minutes ago
One reason to believe Brady: The truth will come out. In this case, cover up would be worse than crime. He's got too much at stake to lie.
I asked Samuel whether the league would care if Brady lied to the press, so long as he told the truth to the league when they came around asking questions.
I don't believe the NFL has put out anything official yet. When they do you think they would lie to match Brady's denial?
Ebenezer Samuel retweeted
Hank Gola @NYDNHankGola 4m4 minutes ago
Hebert: "I dont think he told the ball boys what to do with the balls that day but hes been there so long, they know how he likes them."
Ebenezer Samuel retweeted
Hank Gola @NYDNHankGola 5m5 minutes ago
Former USFL/NFL QB Bobby Hebert on Brady: Hes not lying but its almost a half-truth."
Ebenezer Samuel retweeted
Gary Myers @garymyersNYDN 21m21 minutes ago
One reason to believe Brady: The truth will come out. In this case, cover up would be worse than crime. He's got too much at stake to lie.
LOL.....is Myers serious? People have been denying and lying since the beginning of time, only to be exposed later.
Does anyone that understands football think that scuffing the balls to make them easier to grip or deflating them had any affect on the outcome of the Pats game? Does it have any affect on any game? I don't think so. In fact, I think the QBs should be allowed to scuff the balls up and to deflate them for a better grip. Let each team use the footballs they want. Provided they are the same size deflated, made of leather and filled only with air, I don't give a flying you know what how doctored they are. In fact, I'd encourage them to get their balls game-ready.
They are allowed to scuff up the balls. Each team provides their own balls that they use, so each QB can scuff or not scuff up the balls to his own liking. They just can't deflate/inflate them outside the accepted range.
has to lie right now. If he comes out and admits it was his doing he risks being suspended for the super bowl.
Not saying that the NFL would do that, but if he admits anything he opens up that possibility. Now he just has to hope truth doesnt come out for at least another 10 or so days
has to lie right now. If he comes out and admits it was his doing he risks being suspended for the super bowl.
Not saying that the NFL would do that, but if he admits anything he opens up that possibility. Now he just has to hope truth doesnt come out for at least another 10 or so days
Hard to imagine the Pats being able to stall for more than a week.
This is complete bullshit. A trumped up issue by the media.
nothing even happened yet. The only facts we have are that 11 of 12 balls were illegal. If it didn't give you a competitive advantage it wouldn't be against the rules.
I get that it was a blowout, but regardless of score, the integrity of the league has been yet again compromised.
It absolutely matters.
'Patriots players know nothing about this whole ball business'
While Bill Belichick and Tom Brady drew all the attention at the podium, the rest of the Patriots all spent Thursday answering questions about #DeflateGate.
And amazingly, to a man, they professed no knowledge of any impropriety.
[...]
People are certainly stirred up, but the Patriots are kidding themselves if they think this story is about the balls themselves. Its the pattern of behavior that has created the firestorm, and will cause this story to dominate coverage next week and beyond. Article on PFT - ( New Window )
Ross Tucker @RossTuckerNFL 26m26 minutes ago
If NFL let's QBs use their own altered balls why do they care about air pressure? Let Brady play with 11 PSI & Rodgers 15 PSI. Who cares?
Tom Brady didn't know about the balls being altered. His hands are on those footballs hundreds of times during the week leading up to the game. The ball is his baseball glove or track shoe or baseball bat or hockey stick. There is no possibility that he didn't have a hand in deflating the footballs. No equipment manager on the planet would deflate gameballs. NO way.
That said, it's pretty difficult to surmise that the game would have been different had the balls been unaltered.
The most disappointing thing is that Brady lied. Completely bold faced lied to everyone. And the Patriots are passing the buck. They have a history of bending and sometimes breaking the rules. And yet again the Patriots are complicit in deceiving the league and its fans.
Ross Tucker @RossTuckerNFL 26m26 minutes ago
If NFL let's QBs use their own altered balls why do they care about air pressure? Let Brady play with 11 PSI & Rodgers 15 PSI. Who cares?
Maybe thats something that could be discussed down the line, but as of right now thats not the case. They didnt knowing what the rules are.
Think that Bill putting it off of him and onto Brady is a
organizational move. Because if he's distanced from it greater chance it's a Brady fine and not an organizational fine which could cost them draft picks.
Bill probably told Tom you can do what you want but if you get caught it's on you. Those two talk about everything.
What I haven't heard is a detailed description of how the ref checks the balls before the game. Does he measure the psi? Could the pats be giving the ref underinflated balls and they not being detected or do the balls have to be altered after they have been inspected? Anyway, it seems weird that the ref would check the balls and give them back to the ballboy/equipment manager. Isn't that almost an invite for tampering? Seems the NFL and not just the Pats have some 'splanin to do.
What I haven't heard is a detailed description of how the ref checks the balls before the game. Does he measure the psi? Could the pats be giving the ref underinflated balls and they not being detected or do the balls have to be altered after they have been inspected? Anyway, it seems weird that the ref would check the balls and give them back to the ballboy/equipment manager. Isn't that almost an invite for tampering? Seems the NFL and not just the Pats have some 'splanin to do.
Supposedly the refs get the balls (12 from each team + 12 backups from the home team) about 2 hours before the game and they are supposed to test them at that point. Then the refs hold onto them until the teams are taking the field.
Perhaps a crazy theory - the under inflated balls are left in a sauna for a couple of hours then brought out for inspection and tested at 12.5 psi. After being exposed to room temperature followed by outside temperature of 50 degrees they are down to 10.5 psi by halftime. The outside temperature would have to be around -10 to lose 2 psi from room temperature but not if the room temp started at about 130.
Even an NFL ref would probably notice if the balls had been in a Sauna for several hours. I know PV=nRT but how do you determine pressure loss for a football per degree?
Even an NFL ref would probably notice if the balls had been in a Sauna for several hours. I know PV=nRT but how do you determine pressure loss for a football per degree?
P1/T1 = P2/T2 (temps in Kelvin)
T2 = (P2/P1)*T1
So the game temp was 50 deg F (10 deg C = 283 K). Supposedly the ball was tested at 12.5 PSI pre-game and then dropped to 10.5 PSI
That would mean the starting temp would have to be 337 K or ~145 deg F.
This has no impact in games. The NFL should investigate the amount of juicing the Seahawks do if they want to do something meaningful that probably does impact games. THAT is cheating, not a football that is slightly deflated.
Also, I appreciate the point about the officials checking the balls before the game and keeping watch (as if it would have any impact). Did they do that and what did it show?
Kevin Kernan retweeted
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 9m9 minutes ago
No doubt the best outcome for Pats is for Brady to take the hit. If coach implicated, major discipline at risk. If Brady owns it, a fine.
************************************
You're very welcome, Montana
Even if they put it on Brady, somebody within the organization (equipment guys) had to do the deflating. The Pats organization is responsible for its employees. A fine to Brady and/or the Pats alone wont cut it. Its an invitation to all other teams to go around the rules if all it cost is some money that will be made up and and then sum if you make it to the playoffs/SB
This has no impact in games. The NFL should investigate the amount of juicing the Seahawks do if they want to do something meaningful that probably does impact games. THAT is cheating, not a football that is slightly deflated.
Also, I appreciate the point about the officials checking the balls before the game and keeping watch (as if it would have any impact). Did they do that and what did it show?
How do you know it won't have an impact? There have been a couple of ex-players who came out and said these 2 lbs would make it easier to throw, catch, and hang onto.
Yes the officials weighed them at the start, halftime, and end of game. These facts have been covered repeatedly in the media, so if your having to ask this you have not really read too much up on the subject
"A loss of 2 psi" does NOT mean dropping from 12.5 psi to 11.5psi
I have seen this incorrect interpretation many times in the last couple days, that this is a 16% loss of air pressure (2/12.5).
When we say something (a ball, a tire) is of 0 psi, it does not mean it has no air pressure at all; it does not mean that it is 0 psi in the absolute sense. It means it has the same pressure as the natural condition, which is 14.7 psi. This is the pressure that your skin and my skin are under at this moment walking on the street.
Therefore, when the ref pumps the ball to the proper pressure of 12.5 psi, its absolute value is 12.5 + 14.7 = 28.2 psi.
And after it loses 2 psi, its absolute value is now 26.2 psi, for a loss of (1 - 26.2/28.2) = 7%, thus not require nearly the impossible natural condition (wetness, temperature drop) for it to happen as compared to a 16% loss.
I am not on the New England side at all. I believe the balls were intentionally altered during the game. Just physics here.
has to lie right now. If he comes out and admits it was his doing he risks being suspended for the super bowl.
Not saying that the NFL would do that, but if he admits anything he opens up that possibility. Now he just has to hope truth doesnt come out for at least another 10 or so days
Hard to imagine the Pats being able to stall for more than a week.
They wont have to stall, the league probably might want to. If they conclude their investigation before the SB, and find the Pats at fault, fans may want an immediate punishment for the SB. And if it includes suspensions of Brady and/BB, that ruins the SB, and will cost the league a huge amount of money.
Serves the league better to put things off till after the SB.
I have seen this incorrect interpretation many times in the last couple days, that this is a 16% loss of air pressure (2/12.5).
When we say something (a ball, a tire) is of 0 psi, it does not mean it has no air pressure at all; it does not mean that it is 0 psi in the absolute sense. It means it has the same pressure as the natural condition, which is 14.7 psi. This is the pressure that your skin and my skin are under at this moment walking on the street.
Therefore, when the ref pumps the ball to the proper pressure of 12.5 psi, its absolute value is 12.5 + 14.7 = 28.2 psi.
And after it loses 2 psi, its absolute value is now 26.2 psi, for a loss of (1 - 26.2/28.2) = 7%, thus not require nearly the impossible natural condition (wetness, temperature drop) for it to happen as compared to a 16% loss.
I am not on the New England side at all. I believe the balls were intentionally altered during the game. Just physics here.
Admit I understand almost none of this (the math), but if science is the reason for the psi drop, wouldn't it stand to reason if all the balls were measured pre-game and were in the same range, and all the balls brought outdoors and made available to each teams ball boys at the same time that science would have equally effected all 12 of the Pats balls (only 11 of 12 were under-inflated) and all of the Colts balls?
It seems like science doesn't pick and choose whose balls to reduce the psi on.
It seems like science doesn't pick and choose whose balls to reduce the psi on.
You are correct. I said I was only talking about scientific calculations.
Two facts make the nature of this incident very clear: 1. The balls on the Colts' side did not exhibit the same phenomenon; and 2. After the deflated balls were inflated back to the proper pressure at half time, they remained so at the end of the game.
So science dictates that there must be some man-made reasons behind this.
I have seen this incorrect interpretation many times in the last couple days, that this is a 16% loss of air pressure (2/12.5).
When we say something (a ball, a tire) is of 0 psi, it does not mean it has no air pressure at all; it does not mean that it is 0 psi in the absolute sense. It means it has the same pressure as the natural condition, which is 14.7 psi. This is the pressure that your skin and my skin are under at this moment walking on the street.
Therefore, when the ref pumps the ball to the proper pressure of 12.5 psi, its absolute value is 12.5 + 14.7 = 28.2 psi.
And after it loses 2 psi, its absolute value is now 26.2 psi, for a loss of (1 - 26.2/28.2) = 7%, thus not require nearly the impossible natural condition (wetness, temperature drop) for it to happen as compared to a 16% loss.
I am not on the New England side at all. I believe the balls were intentionally altered during the game. Just physics here.
i think your off on this. It is 2 lbs per square inch of loss pressure/ In addition all the balls from both the Pats and the Colts were measured at the start of the game and were fine. At halftime ONLY the pats balls (11 out of 12) showed the same 2lbs loss pressure. They the refilled the balls to the proper weight and weighed them again at the end of the game, all did not show any kind of loss pressure close to the 2 lbs
i think your off on this. It is 2 lbs per square inch of loss pressure/ In addition all the balls from both the Pats and the Colts were measured at the start of the game and were fine. At halftime ONLY the pats balls (11 out of 12) showed the same 2lbs loss pressure. They the refilled the balls to the proper weight and weighed them again at the end of the game, all did not show any kind of loss pressure close to the 2 lbs [/quote]
I am off ... on what? None of what you said is news to me.
All I am saying is that the "loss of 2 psi" statement means it dropped from 28.2 to 26.2, which is about 7%, instead of the commonly mistaken and misquoted from 12.5 to 10.5, which is about 16%.
That's all I am saying, and I do believe the Patriots altered their game balls.
GREEN BAY, Wis. -- Aaron Rodgers says NFL referees take air out of footballs to be used in games, and he doesn't think it should happen.
[...]
"I have a major problem with the way it goes down, to be honest with you," Rodgers said Tuesday on his ESPN Milwaukee radio show. "The majority of the time, they take air out of the football. I think that, for me, is a disadvantage."
Rodgers said he likes the ball to be inflated because of his strong grip pressure and large hand size but doesn't believe that's the norm.
I know the Pats are on a par with the Yankees nationally when it comes to team hate, but is it possible the official(s) screwed up based on what Rogers said? If teams where giving them properly inflated balls why were raking any air out? If teams where giving them balls inflated to the wrong PSI were they responsible to get them to the correct PSI?
Even an NFL ref would probably notice if the balls had been in a Sauna for several hours. I know PV=nRT but how do you determine pressure loss for a football per degree?
P1/T1 = P2/T2 (temps in Kelvin)
T2 = (P2/P1)*T1
So the game temp was 50 deg F (10 deg C = 283 K). Supposedly the ball was tested at 12.5 PSI pre-game and then dropped to 10.5 PSI
That would mean the starting temp would have to be 337 K or ~145 deg F.
I still would like to know who maintains custody of the balls prior to the pre-game pressure check. If there are no rules and regulations on how and where the balls are stored then I don't think my theory is that far fetched and technically it wouldn't be cheating. If a QB prefers an over inflated ball then put them in the freezer before testing. If they prefer it under inflated then put it in the sauna, fill it with hot air, or whatever it takes to pass the test.
Maybe equipment guy deflated them after they were inspected?
NFL has no comment at this time and Patriots say they will continue to cooperate with the investigation. More on SpotrsCenter.
As NFL investigates Deflate-gate would be wise to speak to Ravens. Some there believe kicking balls used in their playoff game underinflated
There appeared to be less air in some kicking balls which may have had an impact on the depth of punts and kickoffs in AFC Divisional game
An NFL spokesman said as of tonight they had no knowledge of a Ravens complaint about the kicking balls from their playoff game
Section 1
BALL DIMENSIONS
The Ball must be a Wilson, hand selected, bearing the signature of the Commissioner of the League, Roger Goodell.
The ball shall be made up of an inflated (12 1/2 to 13 1/2 pounds) urethane bladder enclosed in a pebble grained, leather case (natural tan color) without corrugations of any kind. It shall have the form of a prolate spheroid and the size and weight shall be: long axis, 11 to 11 1/4 inches; long circumference, 28 to 28 1/2 inches; short ircumference, 21 to 21 1/4 inches; weight, 14 to 15 ounces.
The Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with these specifications. A pump is to be furnished by the home club, and the balls shall remain under the supervision of the Referee until they are delivered to the ball attendant just prior to the start of the game.
Section 2
BALL SUPPLY
Each team will make 12 primary balls available for testing by the Referee two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game to meet League requirements. The home team will also make 12 backup balls available for testing in all stadiums. In addition, the visitors, at their discretion, may bring 12 backup balls to be tested by the Referee for games held in outdoor stadiums. For all games, eight new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer to the Referee, will be opened in the officials locker room two hours and 15 minutes prior to the starting time of the game.
These balls are to be specially marked by the Referee and used exclusively for the kicking game.
In the event a home team ball does not conform to specifications, or its supply is exhausted, the Referee shall secure a proper ball from the visitors and, failing that, use the best available ball. Any such circumstances must be reported to the Commissioner.
In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of the offensive teams center.
The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs).
Note: It is the responsibility of the home team to furnish playable balls at all times by attendants from either side of the playing
field.
Bart Hubbuch 6 minutes ago
But the more likely response is: "EVERYBODY DOES IT. THE PATRIOTS JUST GOT CAUGHT!"
Quote:
the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Bart Hubbuch 6 minutes ago
But the more likely response is: "EVERYBODY DOES IT. THE PATRIOTS JUST GOT CAUGHT!"
Exactly. Two weeks til Super Bowl. The press needs stories, dammit!
They are jerks. I hope they win by 40 in two weeks.
Quote:
but it's an offense that could result in a loss of draft picks, which indicates that the league is pretty serious about it. Just a pattern of shitty behavior by that franchise.
They are jerks. I hope they win by 40 in two weeks.
I'll revel in the losing team's misery - whoever it is.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 12103384 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
but it's an offense that could result in a loss of draft picks, which indicates that the league is pretty serious about it. Just a pattern of shitty behavior by that franchise.
They are jerks. I hope they win by 40 in two weeks.
I'll revel in the losing team's misery - whoever it is.
That is a fine perspective. I approve.
Me too. Also, if this is actually important, I dont understand how the officials dont notice this. One official touches the ball on every fucking play.
And refs don't care because everyone in the league does it and it isn't a big deal unless you make it one like the Colts did. The end
Dan Lifshatz 4 minutes ago
And the Colts report it because they got their asses handed to them on National TV and want to take headlines off them. So freaking simple
Dan Lifshatz 15 minutes ago
Want to know what really happened? Pats deflated balls because no one cares. Refs didn't report it because no one cares. Colts report it
Dan Lifshatz retweeted
Mark Daniels 17m 17 minutes ago
There are a couple options: someone deflated the balls in game or the referees didn't do their jobs.
Dan Lifshatz retweeted
Chris Mortensen 34m 34 minutes ago
NFL has found that 11 of the Patriots footballs used in Sundays AFC title game were under-inflated by 2 lbs each, per league sources.
Dan Lifshatz retweeted
Mike Loyko 26m 26 minutes ago
Further proof that NFL referees are incompetent.
Dan Lifshatz retweeted
Mike Loyko 37m 37 minutes ago
As a #Patriots scout recently told me "The rest of the NFL hates us and that's the way we like it". #DeflateGate
Rich Rozefort @subzero2401 2m2 minutes ago
Belichick probably already fired the ball boy because he forgot to deflate that 12th ball.
The defense enters the above video into evidence. Here we have CBS broadcasters Jim Nantz and Phil Simms casually recounting their pregame conversation with Aaron Rodgers before his Week 13 matchup with the Patriots. According to Simms, Rodgers admitted to them that he likes to over-inflate game balls. "I like to push the limits of how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do," is what Simms recalls Rodgers telling them
Aaron Rodgers Likes To Tamper With Footballs, Too - ( New Window )
Ben Volin @BenVolin 5m 5 minutes ago
Globe confirms that game officials discovered at halftime that game balls were underinflated. Tested each ball twice with different gauges
I can totally see the NFL falling on this excuse.
I can totally see the NFL falling on this excuse.
Link - ( New Window )
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does the temperature have anything to do with it?
I can totally see the NFL falling on this excuse.
Link - ( New Window )
I was told there would be no math..
Link - ( New Window )
Kinda sounds like a similar situation that took place in Boston about 9 months ago that more or less the same general fanbase will forget how they reacted when pine tar was involved...and it was a Yankee.
thats ridiculous, i hope you're joking
Quote:
They should lose all their picks in this upcoming draft and Belicheck should be suspended for the Super Bowl.
thats ridiculous, i hope you're joking
I'm thinking firing squad.
And the rule is not written to reflect that reality. So the rule is no good.
Quote:
They should lose all their picks in this upcoming draft and Belicheck should be suspended for the Super Bowl.
thats ridiculous, i hope you're joking
Uhhhh no. I'm not. Repeat offenders shouldn't be slapped on the wrist with something minor.
Guess he should get away clean huh?
They'll probably lose their 1st round pick and pay a fine. And i think that's completely fair.
What you suggest is just ridiculous. Especially for something that other teams do likely do at times, and the league knows that.
And the rule is not written to reflect that reality. So the rule is no good.
If that is the case then the Colts balls would also reflect the loss in pressure, does not appear that way though.
Yep...but hey it's Tom Brady. He just laughs it off.
Quote:
And from indoors to outdoors in January, it will make a significant difference.
And the rule is not written to reflect that reality. So the rule is no good.
If that is the case then the Colts balls would also reflect the loss in pressure, does not appear that way though.
This. If it was a weather induced effect it would be similar for all of the balls used for the game, which appears to be decidedly NOT the case.
Quote:
And from indoors to outdoors in January, it will make a significant difference.
And the rule is not written to reflect that reality. So the rule is no good.
If that is the case then the Colts balls would also reflect the loss in pressure, does not appear that way though.
This. If it was a weather induced effect it would be similar for all of the balls used for the game, which appears to be decidedly NOT the case.
Since the Pats dont control which ball goes into the game at any given moment, and the under inflated ball is a good thing for both teams .... then how did the Pats have an advantage over the Colts? The only thing I can think of is if the Pats were passing 90% of the time and the Colts were running.
The Pats have created their own Scarlet Letter on themselves, with Spygate....every time they win, they must have cheated....Look how they circumvent the rules by splitting out ineligible receivers out there at the last second against the Ravens......BB must be rewriting the rule book....
Would weather have an affect? sure...anyone with TPM system on their cars, look at the pressure in your tires first thing on cold mornings....they are lower in pressure, and rise with temp....fact some were lower than others, could just mean that the others could have been overinflated...
Funny, that a linebacker would notice this and that the center and A. Luck didn't......or are they saying, that the Colts only were given the few high pressured balls, and the Pats were given only the lower pressured balls?
I would be checking the thigh pads/shoulder pads of Blount on the Pats too....must have had flubber in there, the way the Colts were bouncing off him, and not making those tackles......there has to be some explanation why the Pats have trounced the Colts four straight times, the exact same way.....I mean, come on, the Ravens were crushed by the Colts.....the Pats just about edged the Ravens....ergo, the Colts should easily beat the Pats....it's a fact....
Since the Pats dont control which ball goes into the game at any given moment, and the under inflated ball is a good thing for both teams .... then how did the Pats have an advantage over the Colts? The only thing I can think of is if the Pats were passing 90% of the time and the Colts were running.
This has nothing to do with the score. And in a wet game where Blount had 30 carries, holding onto a smaller ball is an advantage.
Opening doors to change wind patterns during FG attempts...
Congratulations Colts, you are the AFC Champions!
Yeah I should have wrote "one" team, not "home" team.
AND the home team supplies 12 backups
would like to see if the backups/home team pressure matched
Well, we know that is going to change come next season. My guess is that they will continue to allow the teams to provide the balls, but once the balls are inspected by the refs, they will remain under the NFL's control (rather than the team) until the end of the game.
If I really thought it had effected the outcome of the game, I'd care more. We all know it didn't.
If I really thought it had effected the outcome of the game, I'd care more. We all know it didn't.
Agreed. Much ado about nothing.
This is all about integrity, not winning or losing.
Quote:
The Pats could have used an actual brick instead of a football on Sunday and still won by 3 scores. They fucking ragdolled the Colts just like they've been doing pretty consistently for the last 10 years.
If I really thought it had effected the outcome of the game, I'd care more. We all know it didn't.
Agreed. Much ado about nothing.
So it's OK to cheat as long as you blow the other team out? Got it.
Johnette Howard 21 minutes ago
Bucs QB Johnson admits he paid to have footballs altered before Super Bowl 37
"I paid some guys off to get the balls right," Johnson now admits. "I went and got all 100 footballs, and they took care of all of them."
How much did it cost Johnson? "Seventy-five hundred (dollars)," he said.
"They took care of them."
Johnson made the revelation several years ago, proir to the 10-year reunion of the Bucs' Super Bowl champion team.
Link - ( New Window )
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The Pats could have used an actual brick instead of a football on Sunday and still won by 3 scores. They fucking ragdolled the Colts just like they've been doing pretty consistently for the last 10 years.
If I really thought it had effected the outcome of the game, I'd care more. We all know it didn't.
Agreed. Much ado about nothing.
I cannot agree that intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage is much ado about nothing. Whether they actually needed the advantage is irrelevant. Getting away with it just encourages more cheating, and then someone has to decide when its flagrant enough to warrant penalties?
I'm fairly confident in saying this is not the first time a team has done this. It's just the first time someone got caught.
Second, what does a ball that is underinflated by two pounds per square inch feel like?
Third, were the balls properly tested before the game?
Fourth, how big of a factor was the weather?
Fifth, how was the chain of custody maintained?
Sixth, how widespread is the practice?
Seventh, should the NFL want pristine, fully-inflated footballs?
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I don't disagree with the general sentiment - it's that the Pats likely work the fringe between acceptable and illegal harder than any other team, and when you have the kind of sustained success that they've had, it raises additional questions when something like this happens.
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Bill knew this could be the last run with Brady at QB so he probably said fuck it I'll lose a draft pick or two to win one more Super Bowl.
I'm fairly confident in saying this is not the first time a team has done this. It's just the first time someone got caught.
I don't. And if the game was 24-21 Pats im guessing you would care more. The score doesn't matter though, because they broke a rule anyway you slice it.
It's a relatively simple formula to calculate- just need the temperature it was initially measured at and the temperature the second readings were taken at.
If the difference was relatively large, that could account for it.
No idea if the PSI's were taken in the locker room or on the field. One would think if they were taken in the locker room the temperature would have been constant.
Is there any confirmation that the balls the Colts had remained constant?
That would be fair
The Pats have a lot of balls
Being kicked in the balls
Things getting blown out of proportion
The Colts were deflated.
But seriously, in the past it was the kickers who wanted their "special older balls" because they were easier to kick than new balls.
Question: would an under inflated ball be easier to grip if you have smaller hand? Would that be an advantage for Brady?
The Pats have a lot of balls
Being kicked in the balls
Things getting blown out of proportion
The Colts were deflated.
But seriously, in the past it was the kickers who wanted their "special older balls" because they were easier to kick than new balls.
Question: would an under inflated ball be easier to grip if you have smaller hand? Would that be an advantage for Brady?
We deflated ours in HS for both our QB and kicker. I honestly thought it was legal. Certainly it is a common practice from my experience.
But, how important could the inflation of the ball be if the NFL doesn't supply the game balls for both teams?
It really can't matter that much.
Maybe so, CiP, but we heard the same thing with Spygate - everyone does it. So, then, why is it the Patriots are always the ones getting caught?
I've never heard of other teams complaining about underinflated footballs, and now we have 2 very recent examples. I've never heard a ref replace a K ball in the middle of a series, but we heard it Sunday.
Where there' is smoke, there is often fire, and there always seems to be a lot of smoke around the Pats. Until I hear concrete evidence that other teams do it, I'm not going to believe the "every team does it' canard.
Clearly, if there were underinflated footballs, it didn't change the result of Sunday's game. However, if they were doing it to Baltimore, maybe it did make a difference.
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the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Maybe so, CiP, but we heard the same thing with Spygate - everyone does it. So, then, why is it the Patriots are always the ones getting caught?
I've never heard of other teams complaining about underinflated footballs, and now we have 2 very recent examples. I've never heard a ref replace a K ball in the middle of a series, but we heard it Sunday.
Where there' is smoke, there is often fire, and there always seems to be a lot of smoke around the Pats. Until I hear concrete evidence that other teams do it, I'm not going to believe the "every team does it' canard.
Clearly, if there were underinflated footballs, it didn't change the result of Sunday's game. However, if they were doing it to Baltimore, maybe it did make a difference.
Brad Johnson admitted to paying off someone to do it for their Super Bowl against the Raiders.
Just providing the example...just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it hasn't been happening.
but in the cold rainy weather in NE that day
underinflated balls absolutely gave NE a huge competitive advantage
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the indignation over this one. The fact that there are K balls says that teams would fuck with those balls. Teams fuck with these balls. This is like stealing signals. It's bad form, but lots of teams do it...
Maybe so, CiP, but we heard the same thing with Spygate - everyone does it. So, then, why is it the Patriots are always the ones getting caught?
I've never heard of other teams complaining about underinflated footballs, and now we have 2 very recent examples. I've never heard a ref replace a K ball in the middle of a series, but we heard it Sunday.
Where there' is smoke, there is often fire, and there always seems to be a lot of smoke around the Pats. Until I hear concrete evidence that other teams do it, I'm not going to believe the "every team does it' canard.
Clearly, if there were underinflated footballs, it didn't change the result of Sunday's game. However, if they were doing it to Baltimore, maybe it did make a difference.
At least part of it is because the Pats have had unparalleled success over the last 15 years. Do you really think anyone would care if the Jags were caught spying on other teams? Or if the Raiders were replacing the football with bricks while the other team was on offense?
Of note: @nytimes story last year on Eli Manning's game balls being specifically tailored. Not weight, but feel.
EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. When Eli Manning drops back to throw his first pass Sunday against the Dallas Cowboys, the football in his hands will be as familiar as an old friend.
That is because the ball has been scoured, scrubbed, soaked and seasoned, a breaking-in process that takes months and ensures that every ball used by the Giants in a game will meet Mannings exact preferences. The leather will have been softened, the grip enhanced and the overall feel painstakingly assessed.
There are no new balls thrown around in an N.F.L. game. A new ball, despised for its sheen and waxy gloss, is as popular as a late hit.
For every N.F.L. game, each team has 12 to 20 balls that it has meticulously groomed and prepared according to the needs of its starting quarterback. The balls, brushed and primed using various obvious and semisecret techniques, bear the team logo and are switched out from sideline to sideline depending on which team is on offense.
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There appears to be a specific rule that the Patriots specifically broke. That is a huge problem for the integrity of game, no matter wether it was benign or not.
I agree with those above that the NFL will obfuscate the findings in a manner that deflects guilt, otherwise they will have to make the Patriots pay, and that won't make anyone happy ever
The league has rules about the PSI level the ball MUST be between.
Do they have rules about the feel or other attributes of the ball that Eli (or Brad Johnson) are breaking?
Serious question, I don't know if they do.
Those things - the main factors in Indianapolis getting completely housed - have nothing to do with deflated footballs.
All that said, i've mentioned before - this stuff goes on behind the scenes. The balls get scuffed up, painted with a bit of pine tar and deflated based on preferences. Every team manipulates the balls to some extent.
Once Jackson easily plucked the Brady throw out of the air he probably went back to the sidelines and - assuming that he wanted to keep the ball - handed it to one of the Colts equipment guys who noticed that the ball was deflated. Word got around, Indy got smashed and eventually Irsay most likely tried to give the story legs through back channels.
Maybe if Indy blocked better, tackled better and played football a bit better, whining about deflated balls wouldn't have been an issue.
There appears to be a specific rule that the Patriots specifically broke. That is a huge problem for the integrity of game, no matter wether it was benign or not.
I agree with those above that the NFL will obfuscate the findings in a manner that deflects guilt, otherwise they will have to make the Patriots pay, and that won't make anyone happy ever
Good point, the Pats never have to pay...
Spygate penalties - ( New Window )
Did they complain but the league said no big deal?
Did they complain and it just wasn't made public?
People love to say "everyone does it" but no one in history had ever been caught for either infraction (to the best of my knowledge)
The league has rules about the PSI level the ball MUST be between.
Do they have rules about the feel or other attributes of the ball that Eli (or Brad Johnson) are breaking?
Serious question, I don't know if they do.
The relevance is that both things make it easier to throw the ball. Yes, techically 1 is allowed and the other is against the rules, but it appears to be a somewhat arbitrary line.
Did they complain but the league said no big deal?
Did they complain and it just wasn't made public?
People love to say "everyone does it" but no one in history had ever been caught for either infraction (to the best of my knowledge)
Same reason it's a bigger story that Arod or Bonds used roids than it is that half of the players in the minors are sticking needles in their a$$. Success breeds jealousy and makes it a much bigger story.
It's not worth it to make accusations like this against the Jags or Raiders or Redskins or 75% of NFL teams.
Ok. Sure. Keep telling yourself that.
Did they complain but the league said no big deal?
Did they complain and it just wasn't made public?
People love to say "everyone does it" but no one in history had ever been caught for either infraction (to the best of my knowledge)
Everyone manipulates the balls (especially Brett and Davisian) to some extent so that's why it's never brought up. I really think behind the scenes Irsay had something to do with the story being reported.
The worst instance of screwing around with footballs was a team (I won't name it) during my college years that used to put a broken popsicle stick into the grass during field goals and extra points. The idea was to give the ball a bit of height off the grass making the kick easier and giving the ball more height off the foot.
Hey, if you want to get all up in arms over this go ahead. I don't think it made any difference. The Colts got trounced. Plain and simple.
Hopefully they beat the Seahawks down in similar fashion so that everyone can get over it.
Ok. Sure. Keep telling yourself that.
Have they been busted? Probably depends on your definition of "busted", but I wouldn't be shocked if the Refs have "caught" them with underinflated balls.
If you think the Pats success over the last 15 years has nothing to do with this blowing up as it has, then I have a bridge for sale.
I don't know if everyone does it since no one has ever been caught for it as far as I know and the league obviously has the rule for a reason.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's the first time someone has been caught doing it. As far as I know. I just don't have the same firsthand knowledge that some of you do to say "everyone does it". And messing with the ball is different than adjusting the PSI which there is a specific rule about.
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pj, no offense but I think you're being willfully naive if you're going to sit there and say you think this is the first time any team has ever done something like this.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's the first time someone has been caught doing it. As far as I know. I just don't have the same firsthand knowledge that some of you do to say "everyone does it". And messing with the ball is different than adjusting the PSI which there is a specific rule about.
That's one way to look at it. The other is to try to understand why the rule exists in the first place. In this case it seems as though the main advantage gained by underinflating a ball is that it's easier for the QB to grip and throw.
Which then begs the question, why is that disallowed, but other (simple) methods of making the ball easier to grip allowed? And which method provides the greater advantage?
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pj, no offense but I think you're being willfully naive if you're going to sit there and say you think this is the first time any team has ever done something like this.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's the first time someone has been caught doing it. As far as I know. I just don't have the same firsthand knowledge that some of you do to say "everyone does it". And messing with the ball is different than adjusting the PSI which there is a specific rule about.
USC got fined a whopping $25K when it got caught a few years ago deflating balls...
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pj, no offense but I think you're being willfully naive if you're going to sit there and say you think this is the first time any team has ever done something like this.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying it's the first time someone has been caught doing it. As far as I know. I just don't have the same firsthand knowledge that some of you do to say "everyone does it". And messing with the ball is different than adjusting the PSI which there is a specific rule about.
I'm not saying everyone does it every game I am just pretty sure the Pats were not the first.
It is what it is. Is anyone going to asterisk their trophy if they win it?
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Doesn't matter if it was a stupid rule, or others do it or did it or other things that may have been similar or worse.
There appears to be a specific rule that the Patriots specifically broke. That is a huge problem for the integrity of game, no matter wether it was benign or not.
I agree with those above that the NFL will obfuscate the findings in a manner that deflects guilt, otherwise they will have to make the Patriots pay, and that won't make anyone happy ever
Good point, the Pats never have to pay...
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Instead, Goodell imposed the biggest fine ever on a coach -- it represents 12 percent of Belichick's scheduled 2007 salary, which is believed to be $4.2 million -- and took away a first-round draft pick as a penalty for the first time in NFL history.
Spygate penalties - ( New Window )
Finding guilt and penalizing the Pats is lose-lose.
It maligns the game. It reflects poorly on a very succesful franchise that others emulate (or try to). And a penalty will always be considered unfair by Pats fans, and too leinient by everyone else.
Maybe there are others, or maybe if you win you don't care and don't complain about it.
and I never suggested any specific penalty, but if proven the Pats did this intentionally they should absolutely be fined or punished some way.
Otherwise, just scrap the whole rule book since they really become optional or suggestions if there are rules without consequences.
I'm sorry but altering the football.... in the game of football... is a very big deal to me.
Mine would be the same. If it's proven they should be punished. Who really believes their team doesn't have to acknowledge and play by established rules or pay the consequences?
No doubt in my mind.
It would be the same. A rule is a rule. If you don't like the rule or think it's stupid is irrelevant. I don't like that illegal contact results in an automatic first down, but I don't think that the Giants should be exempt from enforcement of it.
1. has a Masters with Summa Cum Spygate honors;
2. and also has a Magna Cum Murderer;
3. a pre-SB Summa Cum non-handshake by its QB,
4. and a post-SB Magna Cum Pout by its HC,
5. and a variety of 'legal' though highly irregular and or questionable actions(and possibly 1 or 2 that were not slipping in),
could possibly be guilty of obtaining an advantage in the
conference CHAMPIONSHIP GAME, after 10 years of often coming close to another window closing era for its key player and HC?
Shirley, you jest(even if found guilty, they sell sell the paraphenalia so they will just get a slap on the penis[ and that is not punishment because they wank their own penis's regularly]).
You do?
Because I know what the reaction would be and I know there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage over it. The vast majority of the posters who are annoyed and think it's a big deal would completely change their stance if it were the Giants.
Three things about the deflated football issue:
1 Its likely, but not certain, that discipline will be deferred till after Super Bowl.
2 Some info about what NFL knows could come out later today or tmrw.
3 Very impt element felt by NFL: 31 other teams watching intently.
Because I know what the reaction would be and I know there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage over it. The vast majority of the posters who are annoyed and think it's a big deal would completely change their stance if it were the Giants.
We'd need 400 ambulances for all the broken ankles...
No doubt in my mind.
Interesting question and i am sure some would move their stance. I would not be as vocal about it, but i would be more disappointed about them doing it. I keep coming back to this claim of everyone doing it. I have yet to see everyone claiming they do it, only 2 so far
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little.
Link - ( New Window )
Because I know what the reaction would be and I know there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage over it. The vast majority of the posters who are annoyed and think it's a big deal would completely change their stance if it were the Giants.
Maybe not. Have you seen how many anti-Giants Giants fans have inundated this site since our last SB win?
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I think there would be a massive dropoff in the "this is a big deal" crowd and a spike in the "it's not a big deal" crowd if that were the case.
No doubt in my mind.
Interesting question and i am sure some would move their stance. I would not be as vocal about it, but i would be more disappointed about them doing it. I keep coming back to this claim of everyone doing it. I have yet to see everyone claiming they do it, only 2 so far
They had to institute the K Balls because teams were constantly fucking around with balls. That is the exact reason they did that.
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There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Easy to check, compare them to the colts balls
Link - ( New Window )
Regarding the weather effect the weight, i think that somewhat gets neutered with the fact that there was 1 ball that was the proper weight
Did you miss the article about Eli doctoring balls?
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In comment 12103735 arcarsenal said:
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I think there would be a massive dropoff in the "this is a big deal" crowd and a spike in the "it's not a big deal" crowd if that were the case.
No doubt in my mind.
Interesting question and i am sure some would move their stance. I would not be as vocal about it, but i would be more disappointed about them doing it. I keep coming back to this claim of everyone doing it. I have yet to see everyone claiming they do it, only 2 so far
They had to institute the K Balls because teams were constantly fucking around with balls. That is the exact reason they did that.
That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
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There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
Did you miss the article about Eli doctoring balls?
Yeah i must have, you have a link to it? The article the Times published back in 2013 (i think) involved practice balls and how the staff requires a couple weeks to get them right for him. Game balls are delivered by the manufacturer just before gametime
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That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
Where there K balls before the rule change? If every team does doctor the balls in so many different ways to their QBs liking why would you question that some/all stray over some strange line in the sand, ie ... pressure?
LOL..I'm just asking for you to show me where it says he doctored gameballs, your the one that made that claim and if so i want to read it.
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
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In comment 12103789 Chris in Philly said:
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That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
Where there K balls before the rule change? If every team does doctor the balls in so many different ways to their QBs liking why would you question that some/all stray over some strange line in the sand, ie ... pressure?
From what i can tell, the issue that created the rule change to the K-Balls in 1998 had to deal with Kickers messing with the balls, not QBs
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
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Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Actually, it just proves the Colts did not reduce the air pressure in this particular game. Says nothing about other games this season or doctoring the ball in other ways.
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In comment 12103851 sphinx said:
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Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Actually, it just proves the Colts did not reduce the air pressure in this particular game. Says nothing about other games this season or doctoring the ball in other ways.
So they decided this game was not important enough to do it? A rainy cold game where doctored balls would help? Just do it for the less important games, not the ones that could help you get to the SB?...Ok then..
The Patriots were cheating. It's the 2nd time they have been caught. It probably didn't effect the game, but they should face serious penalty. If Richard Sherman failed a drug test in 2011 for performance enhancing drugs and then failed one this week he wouldn't be playing in the Super Bowl. Everybody would be saying he is a POS and that he's cheating. This is essentially the same thing except a failed PED test is effecting one player. The shit that the Pats have been caught doing effects entire games.
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In comment 12103832 montanagiant said:
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In comment 12103789 Chris in Philly said:
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That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
Where there K balls before the rule change? If every team does doctor the balls in so many different ways to their QBs liking why would you question that some/all stray over some strange line in the sand, ie ... pressure?
From what i can tell, the issue that created the rule change to the K-Balls in 1998 had to deal with Kickers messing with the balls, not QBs
What the hell is the difference? It shows how common it was for balls to be altered. The next step is that all balls will now be regulated full time.
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In comment 12103848 sphinx said:
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In comment 12103832 montanagiant said:
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In comment 12103789 Chris in Philly said:
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That happened back in 1998 for balls utilized for kicking, i'm talking about teams fucking with the every down balls
Where there K balls before the rule change? If every team does doctor the balls in so many different ways to their QBs liking why would you question that some/all stray over some strange line in the sand, ie ... pressure?
From what i can tell, the issue that created the rule change to the K-Balls in 1998 had to deal with Kickers messing with the balls, not QBs
What the hell is the difference? It shows how common it was for balls to be altered. The next step is that all balls will now be regulated full time.
Yeah 16 years ago it shows it. Has nothing to do with the current system of how the game balls are utilized. Granted 16 years ago the Kickers doctored balls, not arguing that point. Has nothing to do with what occurred on Sunday
Link - ( New Window )
Good point, I think they wanted to allow each team to customize them within set parameters while keeping league rules for it.
If the proper punishment isn't enforced by Goodell this will send the message you can cheat in the playoffs pay a fine which you would happily pay to win the Superbowl. What's a fine or loss of a draft pick compared to getting in the big game.
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There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Its called Guy-Lussac's Law
P = p(T/t) constant volume and amount of gas, T in
What temperature would lead to a drop of pressure from 13.5 to 11.5?
t = (273+50)*11.5/113.5
If the proper punishment isn't enforced by Goodell this will send the message you can cheat in the playoffs pay a fine which you would happily pay to win the Superbowl. What's a fine or loss of a draft pick compared to getting in the big game.
Stop...
If the proper punishment isn't enforced by Goodell this will send the message you can cheat in the playoffs pay a fine which you would happily pay to win the Superbowl. What's a fine or loss of a draft pick compared to getting in the big game.
This is idiotic.
so the balls were doctored
Sources told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter on Wednesday that the Colts had concerns about underinflated balls after their regular-season game against the visiting Patriots on Nov. 16.
During that game, Colts safety Mike Adams twice intercepted Tom Brady and gave the balls to the Colts' equipment manager to save -- and both times there were concerns about the balls feeling underinflated, sources told Schefter.
Those sources said the Colts raised concerns to the league, which was aware of the issue going into this weekend's AFC title game.
And it seems the league did squat.
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In comment 12103775 montanagiant said:
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There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Its called Guy-Lussac's Law
P = p(T/t) constant volume and amount of gas, T in
What temperature would lead to a drop of pressure from 13.5 to 11.5?
t = (273+50)*11.5/113.5
Sphinx posted above that the NFL did a test and found that cold air did indeed drop pressure. I could see this if it was a small amount under the rules, but 2 lbs of lost pressure due to weather does not fit that equation. Also i keep coming back to the 12th ball not having the 2 lb drop
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for cheating. It was an obvious advantage and a fine doesn't cut it. The game was 45-7. A ball that was easier to catch, easier to throw, easier to palm while running.
If the proper punishment isn't enforced by Goodell this will send the message you can cheat in the playoffs pay a fine which you would happily pay to win the Superbowl. What's a fine or loss of a draft pick compared to getting in the big game.
This is idiotic.
Yeah, the under-inflated balls did not cause the Colts to lose by 38 points. It was not the deciding factor in that win. Let the SB be played, give the punishment out (if there is any) after the season
so the balls were doctored
Actually 2 degrees Kelvin (273K = 0C = 32F) but props to you for bringing up Gay-Lussac's law. That being said, GL's law wouldn't have accounted for nearly the amount of pressure decrease we saw because the temperature wasn't nearly cold enough. The Pats definitely cheated, again
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In comment 12103783 sphinx said:
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In comment 12103775 montanagiant said:
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There are only 2 QB's (one of them actually admitted he bribed people to doctor the balls for a SB, but that was an advantage for both QB's since it involved extra scuffing of the 100 balls used) who have claimed to fiddle the balls. The other question is while others may have done this, have any done it to the level of 2 lbs per square inch?
PFT, in part ...
The folks at SportsScience addressed this issue in 2010. A ball exposed to 10-degree temperatures for an hour, the pressure drops from 13.5 PSI to 11 PSI.
Of course, that doesnt fully account for a drop from 12.5 PSI to 10.5 PSI in 51-degree weather for 90 minutes or so. But it proves that, when its cold, the pressure inside a football drops.
In this specific situation, it could be that some pressure was removed from the balls, and that the 51-degree temperature did the rest. Regardless, when the mercury drops, footballs naturally deflate, at least a little. Link - ( New Window )
Its called Guy-Lussac's Law
P = p(T/t) constant volume and amount of gas, T in
What temperature would lead to a drop of pressure from 13.5 to 11.5?
t = (273+50)*11.5/113.5
Sphinx posted above that the NFL did a test and found that cold air did indeed drop pressure. I could see this if it was a small amount under the rules, but 2 lbs of lost pressure due to weather does not fit that equation. Also i keep coming back to the 12th ball not having the 2 lb drop
You would need conditions like the Ice Bowl or the Giants-Packers 2007 NFC Championship for the temperature to decrease the internal air pressure of the football that much. STP is 20 degrees Celsius or 68 degrees Fahrenheit; the temperature in New England that day was 51 degrees or 10.6 degrees C. 10 degrees difference in temperature (Centigrade) isn't enough to produce a pressure difference inside the ball that drastic. Now for Ice Bowl II (where it was -3F or -19C), it is possible
Because I know what the reaction would be and I know there wouldn't be nearly as much outrage over it. The vast majority of the posters who are annoyed and think it's a big deal would completely change their stance if it were the Giants.
I for one am not outraged, but I do think it's a big deal. I think I'd have the same reaction if it were our boys, but you might be right.
I find myself hoping the Pats destroy Seattle.
Just for the 'this is no big deal crowd', since the score was 14-0 at the time, and ended 45-7:
Here is a real what if:
Down 14-0 possibly due to an illegal advantage, the -0- team has to modify their strategies to get back even.
Had all things been equal or at least closer on the scoreboard, likely all the play calls by Colts would have been different, possibly less risky, since they would not be trying to catch up.Possibly the Colts might have actually had a lead, made a key 3rd down stop, etc.
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Just for the 'this is no big deal crowd', since the score was 14-0 at the time, and ended 45-7:
Here is a real what if:
Down 14-0 possibly due to an illegal advantage, the -0- team has to modify their strategies to get back even.
Had all things been equal or at least closer on the scoreboard, likely all the play calls by Colts would have been different, possibly less risky, since they would not be trying to catch up.Possibly the Colts might have actually had a lead, made a key 3rd down stop, etc.
I'd love to know what strategy change would have stopped them from getting blown off the ball or trucked by LeGarette Blount. The Colts were curbstomped in every aspect of that football game. With or without the football.
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the Colts' suspicions date back to their Nov. 16 game against New England, a 42-20 Patriots win. In that game, Indianapolis safety Mike Adams intercepted two passes and handed both balls to the Colts' equipment manager to hold as souvenirs. Both balls, Schefter's sources say, were noticeably underinflated.
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that was a known issue about 20 posts ago :)
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the Colts' suspicions date back to their Nov. 16 game against New England, a 42-20 Patriots win. In that game, Indianapolis safety Mike Adams intercepted two passes and handed both balls to the Colts' equipment manager to hold as souvenirs. Both balls, Schefter's sources say, were noticeably underinflated.
And as noted on a previous post, the league was notified and the league did squat. I don't understand how these "tightly controlled" balls can be taken out of play on a whim by a player and, I presume, substituted for from the backup ball supply.
And ... this from the Rule Book ... did it happen?
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Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Where are you seeing the Colts' footballs have actually been checked?
CBS Sports NFL Insider
The more quarterbacks I talk to, and the more you read past stories and interviews that reference, however casually, the various degrees of inflation or distress many quarterbacks prefer from their game balls, the more it appears to me as a somewhat accepted part of the subculture.
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Mangini was a former angry employee with the Pats who decided to become Eric "The Bull" Gravano and rat out Belichick. What a disgrace. And it was another practice likely conducted by most teams...
And let's face it. This wouldn't be Belichick's doing, it would be Brady's...undoubtedly.
The media loath Belichick, and they are chomping at the bit to knock him down pegs. So this is the perfect storm entering the Super Bowl.They are being relentless.
Here's hoping Belichick has the last laugh and finally wins his 4th SB. And they do it by never passing the ball... ;)
The Pats did not tape any walkthough. That was an allegation even retracted by the Boston Herald. They taped hand signals from a position deemed unfair...whatever the means...
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In comment 12103851 sphinx said:
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Matt Leinart 11 minutes ago
Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
And the league allows it to a degree, you can adjust the pressure within set parameters, scuff it, etc...The question is if they doctor them past the specified rules. Looks like the Colts did not do so, so that somewhat disproves the "everyone does it" claim with regards to violating the specified rules
Where are you seeing the Colts' footballs have actually been checked?
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
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you had zero problem with spygate? The league destroyed the tapes, they wouldn't have destroyed the tapes if it wasn't a big deal. You have no problem with another team taping the walkthrough of another? Really?
The Pats did not tape any walkthough. That was an allegation even retracted by the Boston Herald. They taped hand signals from a position deemed unfair...whatever the means...
I don't believe that they didn't tape (or at least have someone watch) the walkthrough, and neither does Marshall Faulk or Mike Martz. The NFL swept that whole thing under the rug pretty quickly, and it still smells.
Says who? Players from the Rams who lost as such a prohibitive favorites? Gee, they're not biased...
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
Why would you apply common sense logic to anything coordinated by this current NFL front office?
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In comment 12104147 MookGiants said:
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you had zero problem with spygate? The league destroyed the tapes, they wouldn't have destroyed the tapes if it wasn't a big deal. You have no problem with another team taping the walkthrough of another? Really?
The Pats did not tape any walkthough. That was an allegation even retracted by the Boston Herald. They taped hand signals from a position deemed unfair...whatever the means...
I don't believe that they didn't tape (or at least have someone watch) the walkthrough, and neither does Marshall Faulk or Mike Martz. The NFL swept that whole thing under the rug pretty quickly, and it still smells.
And why should I believe Martz and Faulk? They lost. This is a convenient excuse...
They lost a historic game, and this falls into their lap as a convenient excuse...
That rams game will always smell. That patriots team wasn't anywhere near the team the Rams were and they seemingly knew the plays before they were even run. They weren't just whipping them up front, they were a step ahead mentally the entire game it seemed.
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During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
Why would you apply common sense logic to anything coordinated by this current NFL front office?
That rams game will always smell. That patriots team wasn't anywhere near the team the Rams were and they seemingly knew the plays before they were even run. They weren't just whipping them up front, they were a step ahead mentally the entire game it seemed.
Yeah for a team that has what many consider to be the smartest HC in the game, they sure as shit seem to get caught doing some really dumb things. Makes me always question how much other shit they are always pulling we don't know about
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Rams had 430 total yards that SB game. They averaged 442 per game that year. Gee, the Pats really stymied them...
Someone doesn't agree with you, and your shaky premise, so out comes the name calling...
How boring.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Good point about NE's run. Only question i would have for JJ is if that is the case, why did they do it then? It seems like there are accepted levels of gamesmanship that everyone overlooks, and that the Pats have been caught pushing the envelope on those levels. You freaking own the Colts, no one even expected them there, you match-up very strongly against them, so you then just to get an added edge you go past a level that is widely accepted? It just seems so unnecessary
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might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Good point about NE's run. Only question i would have for JJ is if that is the case, why did they do it then? It seems like there are accepted levels of gamesmanship that everyone overlooks, and that the Pats have been caught pushing the envelope on those levels. You freaking own the Colts, no one even expected them there, you match-up very strongly against them, so you then just to get an added edge you go past a level that is widely accepted? It just seems so unnecessary
If all you get from filming a walkthrough is to see what personnel are included in certain formations, that's something. And even if that information is exactly what you would've expected, that info's worth something too. Probably not a lot, but I would argue better than nothing. And when the Super Bowl hangs in the balance, every potential advantage looms large.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
There's a reason why Tom Coughlin conducted his walkthrough for SB 42 in almost complete secrecy
Maybe he'll even subject us to some crappy commercials on the subject.
"NO MORE...underinflated footballs."
and, yeah, this is Brady, why do it unless Tom says I'll be more comfortable in the rain and these temps with a softer ball
Francessa saying the remedy has to be to suspend BB for this game (and more?) and Pats give their first pick to the Colts. That would be a wow, a bit much.
Has anyone in this thread theorized how much of a difference this would make to a QB? I guess if it's in your head that it's more comfortable and to your advantage, in and of itself, that's an edge. Then there is the principle of tampering with the rules. Technical or substantive?
NFL planned to inspect Patriots balls at halftime even before D'Qwell Jackson interception,
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The cold weather was a factor. I think Luck should be calling out Brady on this one. If all that becomes of it is a fine, Giants should do it every game next year and mail in the check at the end of the season. Who cares.
and, yeah, this is Brady, why do it unless Tom says I'll be more comfortable in the rain and these temps with a softer ball
Francessa saying the remedy has to be to suspend BB for this game (and more?) and Pats give their first pick to the Colts. That would be a wow, a bit much.
Has anyone in this thread theorized how much of a difference this would make to a QB? I guess if it's in your head that it's more comfortable and to your advantage, in and of itself, that's an edge. Then there is the principle of tampering with the rules. Technical or substantive?
The NFL stepped in at halftime and adjusted the ball pressure. Ironically, Brady's second half numbers were considerably better than his first half.
If Belichick gets hit, it's because he's covering for Brady. And the league's fall guy here. Brady would clearly be the guilty party. I've seen Pats' practices where Belichick is spraying water on the ball to make the ball slippery for the center and QB, trying to simulate bad weather. So I don't think he's even remotely tied to this...
Ideally, the result should be this: fine Brady, warn the Pats organization, move on...
If you work for ESPN or NFL you cannot talk about spygate
Exactly... if it gave just enough of an unfair advantage to win just 1 game as a result of the advantage, they wouldnt have been #1 seed... and possibly they could have had to play away instead of at home in the playoffs. Would that have effected them making it to the SB?
Those saying it wouldnt have effected the outcome of the Colts game (while they are most probably right), they're missing the bigger picture.
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So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
Just askin'
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
Just askin'
+1
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
Just askin'
If John Madden's opinion is valid, "It would have to be the quarterbacks idea", has Brady lost the trust of his team, including the coach and the owner?
Also, just askin'
Why isn't the same set of balls used by both teams?
The only person who had to know the balls were deflated, aside from the person doing the deflating if it wasn't Brady himself, was Brady, the passer. The rest is conjecture.
Why isn't the same set of balls used by both teams?
So the QBs could doctor the balls to their particular liking, with the exception of PSI for some strange reason. The league is complicit, IMO.
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BB would have to give his approval - if he didn't want it to happen, he would have told Brady no way...
The only person who had to know the balls were deflated, aside from the person doing the deflating if it wasn't Brady himself, was Brady, the passer. The rest is conjecture.
Agreed - that's why in my first post I said "IMO"
Too harsh?
Cantys opinion sounds a lot like the NFLs position that, when it comes to topics impacting the integrity of the game, serious action is required.
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said. You want to be successful as a player but you want to think that you are doing things that are within the rules and that you are out there competing and its not, whether it is performance-enhancing drugs or deflated footballs that is out there aiding in your performance"
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To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said.
The integrity of the game, in this respect, was lost when the league allowed the balls to be doctored by each team and allowed each team to use their own set of doctored balls. Yes, I know this doctoring is different from that doctoring by way of an as yet unexplained reason by the league rule. I wonder if Canty was aware of what was done to footballs between when they arrived at the teams stadium and when they hit the playing field.
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To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said.
The integrity of the game, in this respect, was lost when the league allowed the balls to be doctored by each team and allowed each team to use their own set of doctored balls. Yes, I know this doctoring is different from that doctoring by way of an as yet unexplained reason by the league rule. I wonder if Canty was aware of what was done to footballs between when they arrived at the teams stadium and when they hit the playing field.
Agreed.
But not only that, there are QBs who don't like the softer ball and some he prefer an even firmer ball. I get the sense this PSI setting was an arbitrary number based on some general opinions. I think the real thing QBs want in a ball is the feel of the surface, not the tenderness of the ball...
D. Orlando Ledbetter @DOrlandoAJC 12m12 minutes ago
Fox analyst Troy Aikman: I cant imagine that Tom Brady did not knowmy guess is that it was his request. #DeflateGate
That leads me to think that it's a lot more prevalent then people are letting on (like majority of teams prevalent), and the Colts GM is the first person to complain about it.
I am not excusing the Patriots at all, but maybe this is more like a George Brett pine tar situation?
I also think, based on some recent stuff I read, that the Patriots probably gave the officials underinflated balls to inspect and the officials ok'd them without checking the PSI.
Impact Of Underinflated Footballs
The one thing I would say is this rule where we use two different sets of balls is relatively new, and frankly Im not sure why we came to this conclusion. I assume this will be something that the Competition Committee looks at, Rooney said, via the leagues website. But as far as Im concerned, I think we all ought to use the same balls and not have each side have their own footballs available to them. Thats just my view of it, but it seems to be simpler to just have one set of balls, which was the case for many years where the officials brought the balls out and everybody used the same balls. It seems like that would be an easy answer to this.
* Highlight added. Curious. I think the fans are entitled to know when and why it came about. Rooney can just ask the team's rep on the Competition Committee, assuming there was one at the time, the fans have to rely on the NFL.
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Tom Brady should be suspended for a min. of 8 games and the
Patriots should be fined $1M and lose all their draft picks in the upcoming draft.
After the terrible year the NFL has had publicly, they need to come down hard and make sure to quell the threat of this happening in the future.
Bill Belichick: "I was completely and totally unaware of any of this until Monday morning."
And Bill walks out!
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 46s46 seconds ago
Bill Belichick tells media he "has no explanation" for Deflategate allegations
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 48s48 seconds ago
"I've told you everything I know"... the new "we are onto Cincinnati"...
It really does sound like Bill Belichick is leaving this for a certain Tom Brady to deal with...
Ralph Vacchiano @RVacchianoNYDN 1m1 minute ago
Only one remaining question about DeflateGate: Who is Bill Belichick throwing under the bus? Because it sure sounded like it's Tom Brady.
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 2m2 minutes ago
Amazes me how Bill Belichick has done nothing to deflect the speculation that will now beswirling around his QB. Fascinating strategy.
Obviously now the focus shifts to Tom Brady and what he has to say about Deflategate. Brady speaks tomorrow. Stay tuned
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 1m1 minute ago
It does kinda make sense to blame Brady doesn't it? No way league takes action against the guy who makes Pats worth watching before SB.
Summary of Belichick Q&A: "I've told you everything I know. I have no explanation."
keithlaw @keithlaw 18s19 seconds ago
New dish post - recapping this week's episode of @BravoTopChef: http://klaw.me/1yJc4IA
Ross Tucker @RossTuckerNFL 38s39 seconds ago
Today was Belichick. Tomorrow is Brady. Saturday the Ball Boy?
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 42s43 seconds ago
My guess: set up perfectly for Tom Brady to now say he never told anyone to deflate balls to certain PSI, someone took in their own hands
Here's the full transcript of Bill Belichick's lengthy statement about #DeflateGate http://wp.me/p14QSB-9GYy
When I came in Monday morning I was shocked to learn of the news reports about the footballs. I had no knowledge whatsoever about this situation until Monday morning. Ive learned a lot more about this process in the last three days than I knew or had talked about in the last 40 years that Ive coached in this league. I had no knowledge of the various steps involved in the game balls, the process that happened between when they were prepared and went to the officials and went to the game, so Ive learned a lot about that. Obviously, I understand that each team has the opportunity to prepare the balls the way they want, give them to the officials, and the game officials either approve or disapprove the balls, and that really was the end of it for me, until I learned a little bit more about it the last couple days.
Let me just say that my personal coaching philosophy, my mentality, has always been to make things as difficult as possible for players in practice, and so with regard to footballs, Im sure that any current or past player of mine would tell you that the balls we practice with are as bad as they can be. Wet, sticky, cold, slippery, whatever. However bad we can make them, I make them. Any time that players complain about the quality of the footballs, I make them worse, and that stops the complaining. So we never use the condition of the footballs as an excuse. We play with whatever, or kick with whatever we have to use, and thats the way it is. That has never been a priority for me, and I want the players to deal with the harder situation in practice than theyll ever have to deal with in a game. Maybe thats part of our whole ball security philosophy.
Im trying to coach the team and thats what I want to do. I think we all know that quarterbacks, kickers, specialists have certain preferences on the footballs. They know a lot more than I do. Theyre more sensitive to it than I am. I hear them comment on it from time to time, but I can tell you and they will tell you that theres never any sympathy whatsoever from me on that subject. Toms personal preferences on his footballs are something that he can talk about in much better detail and information than I could possibly provide.
I can tell you that in my entire coaching career I have never talked to any player, staff member about football air pressure. That is not a subject that I have ever brought up. To me, the footballs are approved by the league and game officials pre-game, and we play with whats out there. And thats the only way that I have ever thought about that.
Ive learned about the inflation range situation, obviously, with our footballs being inflated to the twelve and a half pound range, any deflation would then take us under that specification limit. Knowing that now, in the future we will certainly inflate the footballs above that low level to account for any possible change during the game. As an example, if a ball deflated from 13.2 to 12.9, it wouldnt matter, but if it deflated from 12.5 to 12.3, it would as an example. So we will take steps in the future to make sure we dont put ourselves in that type of potential situation again.
The National Football League is investigating the situation. We have cooperated fully, quickly and completely with every request that they have made, continue to be cooperative in any way that we can. I have no explanation for what happened, and thats what theyre looking into, so I cant comment on what theyre doing. Thats something that you should talk to them about. Again, my overall knowledge of football specifications, the overall process that happens on game day with the footballs, is very limited. I would say that during the course of the game, I honestly never it probably has happened on an incomplete pass or something Ive never touched a game ball. Thats not something that I have any familiarity with on that. And again, I was completely and totally unaware of any of this that were talking about in the last couple days, until Monday morning. Based on what I knew Sunday night, thinking back on this, which Ive done several times, I cant think of anything that I would have done differently, based on what I knew then, based on what I know now. Ive told you the one thing based on the initial start level of the football pressure, but thats really about it.
Its really unfortunate that this is a story coming off two great playoff victories by our football team and our players, but again weve been cooperative with the NFL investigation. Well continue to do so, and well turn all our attention, focus on the Seattle Seahawks. They are a very talented, tough football team. Weve spent the last four days, three days, with our preparations and so forth with the trip. Those are coming to a conclusion, were wrapping that up, and were starting our preparations today for the Seahawks and practicing through the weekend so well have a good, solid opportunity to get ourselves ready to go before we head down there.
Again, I have no further comment on the NFL investigation, and Ive told you all I know about the subject from my perspective. So thats where we are.
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Jeff Howe @jeffphowe 4m4 minutes ago
New schedule: Tom Brady will now hit the podium today at 4 p.m. He was originally scheduled to talk tomorrow.
This may not be popular but did I believe Bill Belichick? Yes.
tim hasselbeck @tthasselbeck 9m9 minutes ago
@RichCimini @JosinaAnderson no HC is part of football selection process. All QB & equipment staff. Across the board...every team.
This would be completely impossible to believe: That some equipment guy or ball boy went rogue.
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Who, if anybody, has spoken to the ball attendants?
As silly as it sounds (spoke about it yesterday), the guys who handle footballs most - quarterbacks - have made this an issue for years.
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 9m9 minutes ago
No doubt the best outcome for Pats is for Brady to take the hit. If coach implicated, major discipline at risk. If Brady owns it, a fine.
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You're very welcome, Montana
On lighter note, Belichick was determined not to create a sound bite with "balls." Twice he made quick switch from "balls" to "footballs.
"
While narrative for few hours will be that BB pushed Brady under the bus, I don't think that's way it ends up.
Seems like the plan to me.
Paul Schwartz @NYPost_Schwartz 1m1 minute ago Manhattan, NY
If I was that football handling Patriots ball boy, I'd be looking into retaining a lawyer right about now. It's all coming down on him.
Video: How Officials Check Ball Pressure, from @theMMQB Game 150 series
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Instant reaction to Belichick statement: there were lawyers...#deflated
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 1m1 minute ago
Brady steps to mic later today, says he never told anyone to do anything illegal and by 5 p.m. the Pats are on to Glendale.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 2m2 minutes ago Foxborough, MA
Belichick seemed to create multiple outs, hinted at need to inflate extra for weather as well. Interesting strategy overall.
The ball attendant delivers the balls to the ball boys usually four provided by the home team and two traveling with the visiting team who make sure their quarterback's preferred balls get into the game, said the person, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.
At halftime, the balls return to the officials' locker room, the person said. So, if proper protocol is followed, the only opportunity to manipulate the balls is minutes before kickoff or during the game on the sideline, where there's a risk of anyone in the stadium and dozens of TV cameras seeing it.
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League source with knowledge of Belichick/Brady relationship calls Belichick shifting focus to Brady "shocking."
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General feel of Pats locker room... Most guys took a few questions on deflation but really wanted to move on from those to football
[...]
Given McDaniels history and his role, he should be getting a lot more attention and scrutiny in #DeflateGate than he has. Even if its true that Belichick took the Sgt. Schulz approach to the condition of the footballs, its hard to think that McDaniels never bothered to consider the potential benefits to be derived from getting the balls into a specific shape that would make them easier for the quarterback to throw.
complete article on PFT - ( New Window )
Was this intentional?
Devin McCourty, do ppl judge Pats hard? "Theyve won a lot of games...Its easy to kind of create a reason why were winning games."
but I guess that was expected
Troy Aikman: Patriots punishment should exceed Saints bounty punishment
Bill Simmons 5 hours ago
Q: If Brady liked footballs inflated to lowest legal level, knowing 2-3 hrs of ensuing cold weather deflated them more... is that cheating?
Patriots sent out select quotes from locker room. Those quotes just happen to not include any ball deflation comments...
Aaaaand, Tom Brady's biiiiiig presser pushed back to 4:15. If Patriot PR was hoping to deflate media crowd some, highly unlikely.
Brady: "I didn't alter the ball in any way."
Brady seems shaken.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 19s20 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Brady says he has a "process." Says when he picks the balls out they are "perfect".
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 14s14 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady are you a cheater? "I don't believe so. I have always played within the rules."
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 26s26 seconds ago
Brady says he didn't do anything different Sunday night than he usually does.
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 36s36 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Brady: "That happened obviously on Sunday night"...he says of his process.
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 48s48 seconds ago
Brady sounds very contrite in his opening remarks. Somber. Reserved
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 12s12 seconds ago
Brady says "to me those balls are perfect" and he does not want any air put in or taken out. This jibes w/description an ex-Patriot gave me
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 19s19 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "Eveyone is obviously trying to figure out what happened. I was surprised as anybody when I heard about it monday."
Paul Schwartz @NYPost_Schwartz 19s19 seconds ago
Yup, the Patriots ball boys had better seek legal representation.
#Patriots QB Tom Brady: I didnt alter the ball in any way. Says he wouldnt do anything to break the rules.
0
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 20s21 seconds ago
Brady: Breaking in footballs is like breaking in a baseball mitt.
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 24s25 seconds ago
Is Tom Brady a cheater: "I don't believe so... I believe in fair play and I respect the league."
0
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 32s33 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Brady: "from when I saw the ball five hours before halftime"...seems to indicate he has nothing to do with them after that.
He's ready ta go
On da FAN
New Yawk Spawts Radio-ohhh
Tahm's on, Tahm's on.
Brady: "I was as surprised as anyone when I heard about it Monday morning." says he last saw the balls "five hours before halftime."
ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 1m1 minute ago
The inevitable "ball boy went rogue" defense won't fly in light of John Madden's simple yet compelling take from Wednesday.
A Patriots ball boy is about to mysteriously disappear ... RT @kevingarmstrong Brady says he saw the balls "five hours before halftime."
V
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 8s8 seconds ago
Brady said had "no thought or inkling" that the balls would be different from how they were pre-game
ProFootballTalk @ProFootballTalk 15s15 seconds ago
Tom Brady: "I didn't alter the ball in any way" http://wp.me/p14QSB-9H03
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 16s16 seconds ago
Brady: "I have no knowledge of any wrong-doing ... I don't know what happened over the course of the process w the footballs."
Brady: "I like 'em at 12.5. That's a perfect grip for a football ... I would never do anything outside of the rules of play."
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 32s32 seconds ago
"No knowledge of any wrongdoing." Lawyer like. #Brady
0 replies 6 retweets 2 favorites
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If Brady selects balls he deems to be perfect and ball boy then unilaterally deflates them, Brady would be upset, right?
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 17s17 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "Yeah, I have questions too...once I'm out on the field, I have no thougt of the football at that point."
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 19s19 seconds ago
Brady asked about saying he likes deflated balls. Says "I like 'em at 12.5 - I would never do anything outside the rules of play."
Has Brady tried to figure out why balls deflated? "I think there's a lot of people who have more information than me.. I have questions too"
Brady reiterates "the first I heard of this was Monday morning."
Andrew Brandt @adbrandt 29s30 seconds ago
Some nervous equipment staffers and ballboys right now...
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 32s33 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady: "I think a big part of playing here is trying to ignore the outside forces and influences. Everybody is entitled to an opinion."
Brady on discussions among team: "Those are personal things with my teammates."
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 19s20 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady admits he did address team. Says they were "very personal things with my teammates."
Brady: "This is a very serious topic. The integrity of the sport is very important."
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 23s23 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Tom Brady doesn't think this is a media thing fyi: "This is very serious. This is a very serious topic."
Brady says in Monday radio interview, he thought this might be "sour grapes."
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 30s31 seconds ago
Of the 24 balls designated for the game. Says checked them pre-game and "thought they were perfect"
Tom Brady: "i felt like we won the game fair as square...that was a great feeling after the game."
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 20s20 seconds ago
Brady: "I felt like we won the game fair and square."
Tom Brady: "it's disappointing that a situation like this happens...it should be a great two weeks...I wish I could give you more answers."
Brady on the league: "They'll do what they sit fit."
Tom Rock @TomRock_Newsday 47s47 seconds ago
Brady: "It's disappointing that a situation like this happens." Won't apologize when asked to.
"I don't want anyone playing with those balls"
"I want those balls zipped up and locked away until I play with them"
Brady asked if NFL investigators have spoken with him: "Not yet."
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 26s27 seconds ago Foxborough, MA
Brady said he has not been spoken to by league investigators yet.
Brady says he is unsure if the NFL investigators will approach him or not. Has no knowledge one way or the other if they will
Brady: "I didn't feel any difference."
Tom Brady: "I didn't feel any different" in how ball felt in game... "It was a very wet, cold, windy night."
Brady says it he doesn't "sit there and squeeze the ball" and "if that's what the Colts want to do" then that's what they can do
Ebenezer Samuel @ebenezersamuel 55s56 seconds ago
Tom Brady: "I did not recognize that. I did not notice between the first half and the second half."
Tom Brady: "I certainly wouldn't want them to take away us breaking the balls in."
Tom Brady when asked who handles the balls after ref check: "I have no idea."
Tom Brady on what he tells his concerned friends: "I tell them I'm gonna be ok. This isn't ISIS. People aren't dying."
Brady asked equipment staff if they changed balls: "They haven't and I believe them."
I think it's more than a couple...
Checked to see if league office had reached out to Tom Brady regarding DeflateGate. League declined comment at this time.
World's strangest scandal could tarnish the career of arguably the finest quarterback in the history of NFL football. File that away.
So if Brady didn't do this but he did know ballboy who did, would Twitter court love him for handing kid in or hate him for squealing?
Gary Myers @garymyersNYDN 21m21 minutes ago
One reason to believe Brady: The truth will come out. In this case, cover up would be worse than crime. He's got too much at stake to lie.
Gary Myers @garymyersNYDN 21m21 minutes ago
One reason to believe Brady: The truth will come out. In this case, cover up would be worse than crime. He's got too much at stake to lie.
I asked Samuel whether the league would care if Brady lied to the press, so long as he told the truth to the league when they came around asking questions.
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Ebenezer Samuel tweeted
Gary Myers @garymyersNYDN 21m21 minutes ago
One reason to believe Brady: The truth will come out. In this case, cover up would be worse than crime. He's got too much at stake to lie.
I asked Samuel whether the league would care if Brady lied to the press, so long as he told the truth to the league when they came around asking questions.
I don't believe the NFL has put out anything official yet. When they do you think they would lie to match Brady's denial?
Hank Gola @NYDNHankGola 4m4 minutes ago
Hebert: "I dont think he told the ball boys what to do with the balls that day but hes been there so long, they know how he likes them."
Ebenezer Samuel retweeted
Hank Gola @NYDNHankGola 5m5 minutes ago
Former USFL/NFL QB Bobby Hebert on Brady: Hes not lying but its almost a half-truth."
Gary Myers @garymyersNYDN 21m21 minutes ago
One reason to believe Brady: The truth will come out. In this case, cover up would be worse than crime. He's got too much at stake to lie.
LOL.....is Myers serious? People have been denying and lying since the beginning of time, only to be exposed later.
Bill Clinton anyone???
They are allowed to scuff up the balls. Each team provides their own balls that they use, so each QB can scuff or not scuff up the balls to his own liking. They just can't deflate/inflate them outside the accepted range.
Not saying that the NFL would do that, but if he admits anything he opens up that possibility. Now he just has to hope truth doesnt come out for at least another 10 or so days
Not saying that the NFL would do that, but if he admits anything he opens up that possibility. Now he just has to hope truth doesnt come out for at least another 10 or so days
Hard to imagine the Pats being able to stall for more than a week.
I get that it was a blowout, but regardless of score, the integrity of the league has been yet again compromised.
It absolutely matters.
And amazingly, to a man, they professed no knowledge of any impropriety.
[...]
People are certainly stirred up, but the Patriots are kidding themselves if they think this story is about the balls themselves. Its the pattern of behavior that has created the firestorm, and will cause this story to dominate coverage next week and beyond.
Article on PFT - ( New Window )
If NFL let's QBs use their own altered balls why do they care about air pressure? Let Brady play with 11 PSI & Rodgers 15 PSI. Who cares?
That said, it's pretty difficult to surmise that the game would have been different had the balls been unaltered.
The most disappointing thing is that Brady lied. Completely bold faced lied to everyone. And the Patriots are passing the buck. They have a history of bending and sometimes breaking the rules. And yet again the Patriots are complicit in deceiving the league and its fans.
If NFL let's QBs use their own altered balls why do they care about air pressure? Let Brady play with 11 PSI & Rodgers 15 PSI. Who cares?
Maybe thats something that could be discussed down the line, but as of right now thats not the case. They didnt knowing what the rules are.
Bill probably told Tom you can do what you want but if you get caught it's on you. Those two talk about everything.
Supposedly the refs get the balls (12 from each team + 12 backups from the home team) about 2 hours before the game and they are supposed to test them at that point. Then the refs hold onto them until the teams are taking the field.
P1/T1 = P2/T2 (temps in Kelvin)
T2 = (P2/P1)*T1
So the game temp was 50 deg F (10 deg C = 283 K). Supposedly the ball was tested at 12.5 PSI pre-game and then dropped to 10.5 PSI
That would mean the starting temp would have to be 337 K or ~145 deg F.
Also, I appreciate the point about the officials checking the balls before the game and keeping watch (as if it would have any impact). Did they do that and what did it show?
Buster Olney @Buster_ESPN 9m9 minutes ago
No doubt the best outcome for Pats is for Brady to take the hit. If coach implicated, major discipline at risk. If Brady owns it, a fine.
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You're very welcome, Montana
Even if they put it on Brady, somebody within the organization (equipment guys) had to do the deflating. The Pats organization is responsible for its employees. A fine to Brady and/or the Pats alone wont cut it. Its an invitation to all other teams to go around the rules if all it cost is some money that will be made up and and then sum if you make it to the playoffs/SB
Also, I appreciate the point about the officials checking the balls before the game and keeping watch (as if it would have any impact). Did they do that and what did it show?
How do you know it won't have an impact? There have been a couple of ex-players who came out and said these 2 lbs would make it easier to throw, catch, and hang onto.
Yes the officials weighed them at the start, halftime, and end of game. These facts have been covered repeatedly in the media, so if your having to ask this you have not really read too much up on the subject
I have seen this incorrect interpretation many times in the last couple days, that this is a 16% loss of air pressure (2/12.5).
When we say something (a ball, a tire) is of 0 psi, it does not mean it has no air pressure at all; it does not mean that it is 0 psi in the absolute sense. It means it has the same pressure as the natural condition, which is 14.7 psi. This is the pressure that your skin and my skin are under at this moment walking on the street.
Therefore, when the ref pumps the ball to the proper pressure of 12.5 psi, its absolute value is 12.5 + 14.7 = 28.2 psi.
And after it loses 2 psi, its absolute value is now 26.2 psi, for a loss of (1 - 26.2/28.2) = 7%, thus not require nearly the impossible natural condition (wetness, temperature drop) for it to happen as compared to a 16% loss.
I am not on the New England side at all. I believe the balls were intentionally altered during the game. Just physics here.
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has to lie right now. If he comes out and admits it was his doing he risks being suspended for the super bowl.
Not saying that the NFL would do that, but if he admits anything he opens up that possibility. Now he just has to hope truth doesnt come out for at least another 10 or so days
Hard to imagine the Pats being able to stall for more than a week.
They wont have to stall, the league probably might want to. If they conclude their investigation before the SB, and find the Pats at fault, fans may want an immediate punishment for the SB. And if it includes suspensions of Brady and/BB, that ruins the SB, and will cost the league a huge amount of money.
Serves the league better to put things off till after the SB.
I have seen this incorrect interpretation many times in the last couple days, that this is a 16% loss of air pressure (2/12.5).
When we say something (a ball, a tire) is of 0 psi, it does not mean it has no air pressure at all; it does not mean that it is 0 psi in the absolute sense. It means it has the same pressure as the natural condition, which is 14.7 psi. This is the pressure that your skin and my skin are under at this moment walking on the street.
Therefore, when the ref pumps the ball to the proper pressure of 12.5 psi, its absolute value is 12.5 + 14.7 = 28.2 psi.
And after it loses 2 psi, its absolute value is now 26.2 psi, for a loss of (1 - 26.2/28.2) = 7%, thus not require nearly the impossible natural condition (wetness, temperature drop) for it to happen as compared to a 16% loss.
I am not on the New England side at all. I believe the balls were intentionally altered during the game. Just physics here.
Admit I understand almost none of this (the math), but if science is the reason for the psi drop, wouldn't it stand to reason if all the balls were measured pre-game and were in the same range, and all the balls brought outdoors and made available to each teams ball boys at the same time that science would have equally effected all 12 of the Pats balls (only 11 of 12 were under-inflated) and all of the Colts balls?
It seems like science doesn't pick and choose whose balls to reduce the psi on.
It seems like science doesn't pick and choose whose balls to reduce the psi on.
You are correct. I said I was only talking about scientific calculations.
Two facts make the nature of this incident very clear: 1. The balls on the Colts' side did not exhibit the same phenomenon; and 2. After the deflated balls were inflated back to the proper pressure at half time, they remained so at the end of the game.
So science dictates that there must be some man-made reasons behind this.
I have seen this incorrect interpretation many times in the last couple days, that this is a 16% loss of air pressure (2/12.5).
When we say something (a ball, a tire) is of 0 psi, it does not mean it has no air pressure at all; it does not mean that it is 0 psi in the absolute sense. It means it has the same pressure as the natural condition, which is 14.7 psi. This is the pressure that your skin and my skin are under at this moment walking on the street.
Therefore, when the ref pumps the ball to the proper pressure of 12.5 psi, its absolute value is 12.5 + 14.7 = 28.2 psi.
And after it loses 2 psi, its absolute value is now 26.2 psi, for a loss of (1 - 26.2/28.2) = 7%, thus not require nearly the impossible natural condition (wetness, temperature drop) for it to happen as compared to a 16% loss.
I am not on the New England side at all. I believe the balls were intentionally altered during the game. Just physics here.
i think your off on this. It is 2 lbs per square inch of loss pressure/ In addition all the balls from both the Pats and the Colts were measured at the start of the game and were fine. At halftime ONLY the pats balls (11 out of 12) showed the same 2lbs loss pressure. They the refilled the balls to the proper weight and weighed them again at the end of the game, all did not show any kind of loss pressure close to the 2 lbs
i think your off on this. It is 2 lbs per square inch of loss pressure/ In addition all the balls from both the Pats and the Colts were measured at the start of the game and were fine. At halftime ONLY the pats balls (11 out of 12) showed the same 2lbs loss pressure. They the refilled the balls to the proper weight and weighed them again at the end of the game, all did not show any kind of loss pressure close to the 2 lbs [/quote]
I am off ... on what? None of what you said is news to me.
All I am saying is that the "loss of 2 psi" statement means it dropped from 28.2 to 26.2, which is about 7%, instead of the commonly mistaken and misquoted from 12.5 to 10.5, which is about 16%.
That's all I am saying, and I do believe the Patriots altered their game balls.
[...]
"I have a major problem with the way it goes down, to be honest with you," Rodgers said Tuesday on his ESPN Milwaukee radio show. "The majority of the time, they take air out of the football. I think that, for me, is a disadvantage."
Rodgers said he likes the ball to be inflated because of his strong grip pressure and large hand size but doesn't believe that's the norm.
I know the Pats are on a par with the Yankees nationally when it comes to team hate, but is it possible the official(s) screwed up based on what Rogers said? If teams where giving them properly inflated balls why were raking any air out? If teams where giving them balls inflated to the wrong PSI were they responsible to get them to the correct PSI?
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Even an NFL ref would probably notice if the balls had been in a Sauna for several hours. I know PV=nRT but how do you determine pressure loss for a football per degree?
P1/T1 = P2/T2 (temps in Kelvin)
T2 = (P2/P1)*T1
So the game temp was 50 deg F (10 deg C = 283 K). Supposedly the ball was tested at 12.5 PSI pre-game and then dropped to 10.5 PSI
That would mean the starting temp would have to be 337 K or ~145 deg F.
I still would like to know who maintains custody of the balls prior to the pre-game pressure check. If there are no rules and regulations on how and where the balls are stored then I don't think my theory is that far fetched and technically it wouldn't be cheating. If a QB prefers an over inflated ball then put them in the freezer before testing. If they prefer it under inflated then put it in the sauna, fill it with hot air, or whatever it takes to pass the test.
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