Chris Mortensen & #8207;3 minutes ago
NFL has found that 11 of the Patriots footballs used in Sundays AFC title game were under-inflated by 2 lbs each, per league sources.
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
Why would you apply common sense logic to anything coordinated by this current NFL front office?
said that Marshall Faulk has told him directly that one day he is going to explode about what went on during that Super Bowl after being tight lipped about it for so long. Francesa didn't say those exact words but he said it at the beginning of his show today
you had zero problem with spygate? The league destroyed the tapes, they wouldn't have destroyed the tapes if it wasn't a big deal. You have no problem with another team taping the walkthrough of another? Really?
The Pats did not tape any walkthough. That was an allegation even retracted by the Boston Herald. They taped hand signals from a position deemed unfair...whatever the means...
I don't believe that they didn't tape (or at least have someone watch) the walkthrough, and neither does Marshall Faulk or Mike Martz. The NFL swept that whole thing under the rug pretty quickly, and it still smells.
And why should I believe Martz and Faulk? They lost. This is a convenient excuse...
to believe the Patriots all of the time, even though they continue to be the only team who ever get themselves into trouble with this stuff.
That rams game will always smell. That patriots team wasn't anywhere near the team the Rams were and they seemingly knew the plays before they were even run. They weren't just whipping them up front, they were a step ahead mentally the entire game it seemed.
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
Why would you apply common sense logic to anything coordinated by this current NFL front office?
Given the fact they have had a brutal year by not employing common sense, that this is the second time Pats have been accused, and the fact of the magnitude of this game, I'm going to assume they would be ultra careful with this one. Believe me, if they did not do that it will come out very quickly as a defense by the Pats
to believe the Patriots all of the time, even though they continue to be the only team who ever get themselves into trouble with this stuff.
That rams game will always smell. That patriots team wasn't anywhere near the team the Rams were and they seemingly knew the plays before they were even run. They weren't just whipping them up front, they were a step ahead mentally the entire game it seemed.
Yeah for a team that has what many consider to be the smartest HC in the game, they sure as shit seem to get caught doing some really dumb things. Makes me always question how much other shit they are always pulling we don't know about
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Good point about NE's run. Only question i would have for JJ is if that is the case, why did they do it then? It seems like there are accepted levels of gamesmanship that everyone overlooks, and that the Pats have been caught pushing the envelope on those levels. You freaking own the Colts, no one even expected them there, you match-up very strongly against them, so you then just to get an added edge you go past a level that is widely accepted? It just seems so unnecessary
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Good point about NE's run. Only question i would have for JJ is if that is the case, why did they do it then? It seems like there are accepted levels of gamesmanship that everyone overlooks, and that the Pats have been caught pushing the envelope on those levels. You freaking own the Colts, no one even expected them there, you match-up very strongly against them, so you then just to get an added edge you go past a level that is widely accepted? It just seems so unnecessary
If all you get from filming a walkthrough is to see what personnel are included in certain formations, that's something. And even if that information is exactly what you would've expected, that info's worth something too. Probably not a lot, but I would argue better than nothing. And when the Super Bowl hangs in the balance, every potential advantage looms large.
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
There's a reason why Tom Coughlin conducted his walkthrough for SB 42 in almost complete secrecy
Have to wonder if he sees this as an opportunity to rectify his image a bit. Come down hard on NFL villain #1 and maybe people will forget the job he's done over the past year.
Maybe he'll even subject us to some crappy commercials on the subject.
What about the gave vs the Ravens... Since the Colts accused them earlier in the season, it would not be too much of a stretch to assume they did it in other games as well.
balls in Colts' possession were tested and found to be within spec
and, yeah, this is Brady, why do it unless Tom says I'll be more comfortable in the rain and these temps with a softer ball
Francessa saying the remedy has to be to suspend BB for this game (and more?) and Pats give their first pick to the Colts. That would be a wow, a bit much.
Has anyone in this thread theorized how much of a difference this would make to a QB? I guess if it's in your head that it's more comfortable and to your advantage, in and of itself, that's an edge. Then there is the principle of tampering with the rules. Technical or substantive?
Not discredit the impact brady has on all this being he knowingly broke the rule....let me guess his hands are to be wiped clean because it's an unwritten rule....like someone mentioned earlier the pine tar rule that Pineda was crucified and put on the front page for . it seems to be common practice in the MLB. ( although blatant)
There could be a heavy penalty coming for New England
in the PGA you would be disqualified from that match. Mark Brunnel said after gripping that same ball he could throw it ten yards further and categorized it as a huge difference.
The cold weather was a factor. I think Luck should be calling out Brady on this one. If all that becomes of it is a fine, Giants should do it every game next year and mail in the check at the end of the season. Who cares.
balls in Colts' possession were tested and found to be within spec
and, yeah, this is Brady, why do it unless Tom says I'll be more comfortable in the rain and these temps with a softer ball
Francessa saying the remedy has to be to suspend BB for this game (and more?) and Pats give their first pick to the Colts. That would be a wow, a bit much.
Has anyone in this thread theorized how much of a difference this would make to a QB? I guess if it's in your head that it's more comfortable and to your advantage, in and of itself, that's an edge. Then there is the principle of tampering with the rules. Technical or substantive?
The NFL stepped in at halftime and adjusted the ball pressure. Ironically, Brady's second half numbers were considerably better than his first half.
If Belichick gets hit, it's because he's covering for Brady. And the league's fall guy here. Brady would clearly be the guilty party. I've seen Pats' practices where Belichick is spraying water on the ball to make the ball slippery for the center and QB, trying to simulate bad weather. So I don't think he's even remotely tied to this...
Ideally, the result should be this: fine Brady, warn the Pats organization, move on...
said that Marshall Faulk has told him directly that one day he is going to explode about what went on during that Super Bowl after being tight lipped about it for so long. Francesa didn't say those exact words but he said it at the beginning of his show today
If you work for ESPN or NFL you cannot talk about spygate
RE: For all the people saying they would have won easily regardless...
What about the gave vs the Ravens... Since the Colts accused them earlier in the season, it would not be too much of a stretch to assume they did it in other games as well.
Exactly... if it gave just enough of an unfair advantage to win just 1 game as a result of the advantage, they wouldnt have been #1 seed... and possibly they could have had to play away instead of at home in the playoffs. Would that have effected them making it to the SB?
Those saying it wouldnt have effected the outcome of the Colts game (while they are most probably right), they're missing the bigger picture.
Faulk should be more pissed that Martz only let him touch the ball...
That would have to be driven by the quarterback, Madden told The Sports Xchange on Wednesday. Thats something that wouldnt be driven by a coach or just the equipment guy. Nobody, not even the head coach, would do anything to a football unilaterally, such as adjust the amount of pressure in a ball, without the quarterback not knowing. It would have to be the quarterbacks idea. PFT - ( New Window )
People defending Will Hill kept saying, "it's only pot. Who cares?" Many others countered with, "that's not the point. He broke the rules as well as the trust of his team, that's the issue, not the pot."
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
People defending Will Hill kept saying, "it's only pot. Who cares?" Many others countered with, "that's not the point. He broke the rules as well as the trust of his team, that's the issue, not the pot."
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
People defending Will Hill kept saying, "it's only pot. Who cares?" Many others countered with, "that's not the point. He broke the rules as well as the trust of his team, that's the issue, not the pot."
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
Just askin'
If John Madden's opinion is valid, "It would have to be the quarterbacks idea", has Brady lost the trust of his team, including the coach and the owner?
IMO, Madden is off base here - given the control freak he is, there is no way BB didn't know what was going on. Maybe it wasn't his idea, but he had to have known about the plan...
BB would have to give his approval - if he didn't want it to happen, he would have told Brady no way...
The only person who had to know the balls were deflated, aside from the person doing the deflating if it wasn't Brady himself, was Brady, the passer. The rest is conjecture.
BB would have to give his approval - if he didn't want it to happen, he would have told Brady no way...
The only person who had to know the balls were deflated, aside from the person doing the deflating if it wasn't Brady himself, was Brady, the passer. The rest is conjecture.
Agreed - that's why in my first post I said "IMO"
The Patriots should be punished to the maximum extent possible.
The Patriots are habitual line-steppers, Canty said during an in-studio appearance. If the allegations are true, then you are talking about attacking the integrity of our game and I have an issue with that. . . . [W]hat Im going to say about the deflating of the balls, to me there is no difference than performance-enhancing drugs. You are cheating at that point. You are getting a competitive advantage outside of the rule book and there has to be some sort of consequences for that.
Cantys opinion sounds a lot like the NFLs position that, when it comes to topics impacting the integrity of the game, serious action is required.
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said. You want to be successful as a player but you want to think that you are doing things that are within the rules and that you are out there competing and its not, whether it is performance-enhancing drugs or deflated footballs that is out there aiding in your performance"
Quote:
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said.
The integrity of the game, in this respect, was lost when the league allowed the balls to be doctored by each team and allowed each team to use their own set of doctored balls. Yes, I know this doctoring is different from that doctoring by way of an as yet unexplained reason by the league rule. I wonder if Canty was aware of what was done to footballs between when they arrived at the teams stadium and when they hit the playing field.
Quote:
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said.
The integrity of the game, in this respect, was lost when the league allowed the balls to be doctored by each team and allowed each team to use their own set of doctored balls. Yes, I know this doctoring is different from that doctoring by way of an as yet unexplained reason by the league rule. I wonder if Canty was aware of what was done to footballs between when they arrived at the teams stadium and when they hit the playing field.
Agreed.
But not only that, there are QBs who don't like the softer ball and some he prefer an even firmer ball. I get the sense this PSI setting was an arbitrary number based on some general opinions. I think the real thing QBs want in a ball is the feel of the surface, not the tenderness of the ball...
Bart Hubbuch retweeted
D. Orlando Ledbetter @DOrlandoAJC 12m12 minutes ago
Fox analyst Troy Aikman: I cant imagine that Tom Brady did not knowmy guess is that it was his request. #DeflateGate
It's weird that no other team has ever been caught doing this...
...in the entire history of the NFL. Personally, I think it's unlikely that the Patriots are the only ones to think of the idea of deflating a ball on a cold wet day and then doing it.
That leads me to think that it's a lot more prevalent then people are letting on (like majority of teams prevalent), and the Colts GM is the first person to complain about it.
I am not excusing the Patriots at all, but maybe this is more like a George Brett pine tar situation?
I also think, based on some recent stuff I read, that the Patriots probably gave the officials underinflated balls to inspect and the officials ok'd them without checking the PSI.
Says who? Players from the Rams who lost as such a prohibitive favorites? Gee, they're not biased...
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
Why would you apply common sense logic to anything coordinated by this current NFL front office?
Quote:
In comment 12104147 MookGiants said:
Quote:
you had zero problem with spygate? The league destroyed the tapes, they wouldn't have destroyed the tapes if it wasn't a big deal. You have no problem with another team taping the walkthrough of another? Really?
The Pats did not tape any walkthough. That was an allegation even retracted by the Boston Herald. They taped hand signals from a position deemed unfair...whatever the means...
I don't believe that they didn't tape (or at least have someone watch) the walkthrough, and neither does Marshall Faulk or Mike Martz. The NFL swept that whole thing under the rug pretty quickly, and it still smells.
And why should I believe Martz and Faulk? They lost. This is a convenient excuse...
They lost a historic game, and this falls into their lap as a convenient excuse...
That rams game will always smell. That patriots team wasn't anywhere near the team the Rams were and they seemingly knew the plays before they were even run. They weren't just whipping them up front, they were a step ahead mentally the entire game it seemed.
Quote:
During the course of doing a proper investigation, due diligence would require they also measure the Colts balls. Its a common sense aspect to this and until we hear otherwise i would assume they were also measured.
Why would you apply common sense logic to anything coordinated by this current NFL front office?
That rams game will always smell. That patriots team wasn't anywhere near the team the Rams were and they seemingly knew the plays before they were even run. They weren't just whipping them up front, they were a step ahead mentally the entire game it seemed.
Yeah for a team that has what many consider to be the smartest HC in the game, they sure as shit seem to get caught doing some really dumb things. Makes me always question how much other shit they are always pulling we don't know about
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Rams had 430 total yards that SB game. They averaged 442 per game that year. Gee, the Pats really stymied them...
Someone doesn't agree with you, and your shaky premise, so out comes the name calling...
How boring.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Good point about NE's run. Only question i would have for JJ is if that is the case, why did they do it then? It seems like there are accepted levels of gamesmanship that everyone overlooks, and that the Pats have been caught pushing the envelope on those levels. You freaking own the Colts, no one even expected them there, you match-up very strongly against them, so you then just to get an added edge you go past a level that is widely accepted? It just seems so unnecessary
Quote:
might look a lot more suspicious if New England hadn't gone on such a run of success over the subsequent 15 years.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
Good point about NE's run. Only question i would have for JJ is if that is the case, why did they do it then? It seems like there are accepted levels of gamesmanship that everyone overlooks, and that the Pats have been caught pushing the envelope on those levels. You freaking own the Colts, no one even expected them there, you match-up very strongly against them, so you then just to get an added edge you go past a level that is widely accepted? It just seems so unnecessary
If all you get from filming a walkthrough is to see what personnel are included in certain formations, that's something. And even if that information is exactly what you would've expected, that info's worth something too. Probably not a lot, but I would argue better than nothing. And when the Super Bowl hangs in the balance, every potential advantage looms large.
Back at the time SpyGate broke, Jimmy Johnson thought the idea that a team could get anything useable from watching an opponent's walkthrough was ridiculous. Now, we might all be slow to credit anything Jimmy Johnson says, but we can't seriously pretend he doesn't know what he's talking about, or would have a good reason to lie about it.
There's a reason why Tom Coughlin conducted his walkthrough for SB 42 in almost complete secrecy
Maybe he'll even subject us to some crappy commercials on the subject.
"NO MORE...underinflated footballs."
and, yeah, this is Brady, why do it unless Tom says I'll be more comfortable in the rain and these temps with a softer ball
Francessa saying the remedy has to be to suspend BB for this game (and more?) and Pats give their first pick to the Colts. That would be a wow, a bit much.
Has anyone in this thread theorized how much of a difference this would make to a QB? I guess if it's in your head that it's more comfortable and to your advantage, in and of itself, that's an edge. Then there is the principle of tampering with the rules. Technical or substantive?
NFL planned to inspect Patriots balls at halftime even before D'Qwell Jackson interception,
Link - ( New Window )
The cold weather was a factor. I think Luck should be calling out Brady on this one. If all that becomes of it is a fine, Giants should do it every game next year and mail in the check at the end of the season. Who cares.
and, yeah, this is Brady, why do it unless Tom says I'll be more comfortable in the rain and these temps with a softer ball
Francessa saying the remedy has to be to suspend BB for this game (and more?) and Pats give their first pick to the Colts. That would be a wow, a bit much.
Has anyone in this thread theorized how much of a difference this would make to a QB? I guess if it's in your head that it's more comfortable and to your advantage, in and of itself, that's an edge. Then there is the principle of tampering with the rules. Technical or substantive?
The NFL stepped in at halftime and adjusted the ball pressure. Ironically, Brady's second half numbers were considerably better than his first half.
If Belichick gets hit, it's because he's covering for Brady. And the league's fall guy here. Brady would clearly be the guilty party. I've seen Pats' practices where Belichick is spraying water on the ball to make the ball slippery for the center and QB, trying to simulate bad weather. So I don't think he's even remotely tied to this...
Ideally, the result should be this: fine Brady, warn the Pats organization, move on...
If you work for ESPN or NFL you cannot talk about spygate
Exactly... if it gave just enough of an unfair advantage to win just 1 game as a result of the advantage, they wouldnt have been #1 seed... and possibly they could have had to play away instead of at home in the playoffs. Would that have effected them making it to the SB?
Those saying it wouldnt have effected the outcome of the Colts game (while they are most probably right), they're missing the bigger picture.
PFT - ( New Window )
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
Just askin'
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
Just askin'
+1
So, can't the same reasoning be applied here? If they broke a rule, then that's the point, not how silly the rule is(which it is imo), but that there's a rule in place that appears to have been broken..
The pot wasn't the issue, the rule was..The deflation isn't the issue, the rule is..
Just askin'
If John Madden's opinion is valid, "It would have to be the quarterbacks idea", has Brady lost the trust of his team, including the coach and the owner?
Also, just askin'
Why isn't the same set of balls used by both teams?
The only person who had to know the balls were deflated, aside from the person doing the deflating if it wasn't Brady himself, was Brady, the passer. The rest is conjecture.
Why isn't the same set of balls used by both teams?
So the QBs could doctor the balls to their particular liking, with the exception of PSI for some strange reason. The league is complicit, IMO.
Quote:
BB would have to give his approval - if he didn't want it to happen, he would have told Brady no way...
The only person who had to know the balls were deflated, aside from the person doing the deflating if it wasn't Brady himself, was Brady, the passer. The rest is conjecture.
Agreed - that's why in my first post I said "IMO"
Too harsh?
Cantys opinion sounds a lot like the NFLs position that, when it comes to topics impacting the integrity of the game, serious action is required.
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said. You want to be successful as a player but you want to think that you are doing things that are within the rules and that you are out there competing and its not, whether it is performance-enhancing drugs or deflated footballs that is out there aiding in your performance"
Quote:
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said.
The integrity of the game, in this respect, was lost when the league allowed the balls to be doctored by each team and allowed each team to use their own set of doctored balls. Yes, I know this doctoring is different from that doctoring by way of an as yet unexplained reason by the league rule. I wonder if Canty was aware of what was done to footballs between when they arrived at the teams stadium and when they hit the playing field.
Quote:
Quote:
To me, the integrity of the game is the most important thing, Canty said.
The integrity of the game, in this respect, was lost when the league allowed the balls to be doctored by each team and allowed each team to use their own set of doctored balls. Yes, I know this doctoring is different from that doctoring by way of an as yet unexplained reason by the league rule. I wonder if Canty was aware of what was done to footballs between when they arrived at the teams stadium and when they hit the playing field.
Agreed.
But not only that, there are QBs who don't like the softer ball and some he prefer an even firmer ball. I get the sense this PSI setting was an arbitrary number based on some general opinions. I think the real thing QBs want in a ball is the feel of the surface, not the tenderness of the ball...
D. Orlando Ledbetter @DOrlandoAJC 12m12 minutes ago
Fox analyst Troy Aikman: I cant imagine that Tom Brady did not knowmy guess is that it was his request. #DeflateGate
That leads me to think that it's a lot more prevalent then people are letting on (like majority of teams prevalent), and the Colts GM is the first person to complain about it.
I am not excusing the Patriots at all, but maybe this is more like a George Brett pine tar situation?
I also think, based on some recent stuff I read, that the Patriots probably gave the officials underinflated balls to inspect and the officials ok'd them without checking the PSI.
Impact Of Underinflated Footballs