@ConorTOrr: For what it's worth, heard Giants especially interested in OL, LB + S crop down here. Obvious, but sounds like more than one OL is the plan.
I made the suggestion as it drafts into the inherent strengths of this crop, at early glance. e.g, the value at OG appears stronger in the 3rd than the 2nd.
I don't draft for need, e.g, I won't draft OG in the 2nd strictly out of need, that's for UFA.
I understand and agree. Maybe we get a good Tackle at 1 or 2? I just feel very strong that we need at least two very big upgrades MINIMUM to this O-line to really exploit the excellent weapons we have.
And I also agree with the poster who said if JR doesn't fix the line this year (as he was supposed to do last year) he does deserve to be fired!
Unless the Giants have a hidden gem or a guy they are just so much higher on than others, you generally don't get an OL who can play LT at a high level at 40 or later.
If the Giants want an LT it is going to have to come in FA (don't know of any and would likely cost a fortune) ,trade, or very likely somewhat high in round 1.
Schwartz was a damn good signing..That he effectively missed the entire year is not a swing and miss..Richburg was not a swing and miss as hopefully his move to C(probably needs to hot the weight room) will prove..Beatty was more than serviceable..Pugh is a good football player, whose best position MIGHT be OG AND whose elbow had to be a year-long problem for him..
Walton might have been a whiff, but as depth, might prove valuable..Jerry, too..He wasn't brought in to start, but Schwartz injury gave us no choice..He's also more than adequate depth..
We will hopefully bring in a solid starter at OT..We'll fortify our depth in FA on the OL..
I think it's more than fair to suggest their OL strategy missed. They chose to spend frugally to try and patchwork the unit, and injuries, poor choices, being cheap essentially all played into the collective failure.
They need to invest more, make it an immediate priority.
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Nicky, he passed on Zach Martin, so there was no screw-up there
If we can get Iupati or Baluga, plus one of the top OL who can play T or G (I think Peat is one of these, correct?) we'd actually be in decent shape and have a functional line again.
Depth: Schwartz (most likely), other OL draft pick.
On top of that, this gives us depth AND flexibility. We'd have a very capable starter off the bench, and the ability to cut bait with Beatty after next year by allowing the high draft pick to slide over to LT (if the Giants deem Beatty's contract as too expensive).
Like the overall thinking, but we aren't paying Schwartz 16 mill to ride the pine.
'15-'16:
Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-#9 Pick '15
'16-'17:
#9 pick '15-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-FA or draft pick
and Walton battle it out for the center job and Richburg doesn't beat him out we're in a real bad spot, because we already know Walton is terrible at center
RE: RE: RE: I just described reasons why I disagree.. Â
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Nicky, he passed on Zach Martin, so there was no screw-up there
You are right. I forgot we passed on Martin. I just don't get why he would pick Richburgh after taking Walton. Seems like Richburgh was not part of the plan or if they knew Walton was a bust why take him in the first place. I can understand the gamble on Snee but I don't get the two centers.
to answer your 3rd question Coughlin and Reese basically said with Francesa that they view Richburg as a center long term. Not those exact words but they made it clear he's a center
to answer your 3rd question Coughlin and Reese basically said with Francesa that they view Richburg as a center long term. Not those exact words but they made it clear he's a center
Gotcha
Giants need to be more physical in the middle of the oline….. Â
would Pugh being pushed to LG provide that physicality?! He just looks more finesse and less physical to me. He might be a better Guard because of his arm length and foot speed, but I just do not see the Giants moving other GOOD defenses off the ball. WE need to get back to running the ball and we need more physicality IMO.
Look at the two teams in the Super Bowl. both have good running games (Seattle little better). It's a necessity, but shouldnt be forced. Giants have to impose their will on the other D and I just have not seeen that for a few years now.
And so, whomever they draft or sign via FA, the guy has to be phyiscal and capable of moving defenders the other direction.
YAY!! It's patently obvious that they need the help. Â
Is kind of a wildcard on the OL I heard a lot of negatives from the OL starters but for the most part Walton's name was not thrown out much. He will be 28 this year and plays a position where most guys play well into their early or middle 30's. This was also his first full season back from the ankle injury, he may not have been pro bowl worthy but he was not the only or main problem on the line either.
So lets say we extend him for two additional years at less than 2 mil per year can we really find someone better in the draft or FA with his ability and knowledge of our offense. I know much like all of us we have just given the starting OC position to Richburg however even if he does win the position would Walton really be that bad a backup for the next several years?
Walton is terrible. He is small and weak, not physical Â
almost got Eli killed on a few occasions and often got the RB's blown up.
And he is the first to give up on a play. When you watch the games he was usually the first OL guy to stand up straight and just stand there with the play continuing only a few feet away from him.
RE: Reese was directed to fix the OL last year and didn't get it done. Â
He tried his standard plan of signing rejects from other teams, hoping that at least one of the previous OL draftees would step up, and only drafted one OL player, Richburg.
And it bombed big time, partly because his prize vet FA Schwartz got hurt, partly because none of the prior year's OL draftees stepped up at all (a continuing long-term problem with Reese/Ross management), and partly because the rest of the vet FAs he signed not turned out (not surprisingly) to be garbage. Pretty much total garbage.
So it looks like he has one more chance to fix this. He needs to sign at least one quality vet FA and draft a couple of OLs. With eight picks, even three would not be out of the question despite all of the other needs.
This has to be the top priority because the longer this situation goes unresolved, the more they are playing with fire because the odds of Eli getting hurtdue to a poor OL keep increasing.
And if Reese doesn't get it done this year, he really, really, really deserves to be fired.
Losing Schwartz was a bigger blow than any of us may have realized when he was initially hurt. I honestly believe if he had been healthy the whole year maybe Richburg could have moved to center after the bye week and we'd have been stronger along the interior down the stretch. Maybe we win some of the close games with Schwartz.
I certainly hope the Giants are interested in adding more than one OL. Â
I could see OT, DL, OG as the first three picks from this crop. But, I wouldn't be shocked if they draft a WR early and take a flier on a DL later (whichever position isn't picked early, e.g. DE 2nd, DT later).
Wouldn't mind the first part of this..OL, DL, OG..first 3 of draft.I would throw a DE in there as well. Seem to be deep though there this draft.
and the depth will be fine. We can do a lot worse than having Walton, JErry and 3rd rounder as the backups.
I don't want to spend all our cap money on the OL. Everyone is sucking off Dallas for allocating all these resources to the OL and great, it paid off, for now...good luck in 2-3 years. Their D still sucks and won't get better.
we can't expect more than one OL starter to be added via FA. And we probably don't need more than one if you believe in Schwartz, Pugh, Beatty and Richburg. Add one more and that makes 5. Draft a guy to push and provide depth and that's probably all we can ask for.
we can't expect more than one OL starter to be added via FA. And we probably don't need more than one if you believe in Schwartz, Pugh, Beatty and Richburg. Add one more and that makes 5. Draft a guy to push and provide depth and that's probably all we can ask for.
The D needs work too.
It's head-scratching..In what universe is a starting line-up of Beatty, Pugh, Richburg and Schwartz indicative of a line that needs a lot of work? We'd love to get a starter to join them and most likely will during the draft..We'll certainly address OL depth in FA in addition to Jerry and Walton(if they are retained)..
I think the Giants do as well. They probably could have reached an injury settlement with him, but instead carried him through the entire season on IR.
and the depth will be fine. We can do a lot worse than having Walton, JErry and 3rd rounder as the backups.
I don't want to spend all our cap money on the OL. Everyone is sucking off Dallas for allocating all these resources to the OL and great, it paid off, for now...good luck in 2-3 years. Their D still sucks and won't get better.
Walton and Jerry are poor backups, because if they have to play they will suck. I don't think either one belongs on an NFL roster based on their play in 2014. Would you be comfortable if either guy ever had to play even in a pinch?
and the depth will be fine. We can do a lot worse than having Walton, JErry and 3rd rounder as the backups.
I don't want to spend all our cap money on the OL. Everyone is sucking off Dallas for allocating all these resources to the OL and great, it paid off, for now...good luck in 2-3 years. Their D still sucks and won't get better.
Walton and Jerry are poor backups, because if they have to play they will suck. I don't think either one belongs on an NFL roster based on their play in 2014. Would you be comfortable if either guy ever had to play even in a pinch?
Actually, from some accounts, Jerry played well down the stretch..You can cite level of competition, but all teams encounter a bunch of shit along the way..But even if correct, it shouldn't be all that difficult to replace backups with other backups..
It makes no sense to me how some of the same people that will cry and cry about not being able to run the ball are the first to try to defend him being on the roster. He's, at best, tolerable as a pass blocker, so he doesn't even have that going for him.
Schwartz has only started 16 games once in his entire career, Pugh is coming off a bad season and elbow issue, and Richburg looked every bit the undersized rookie this season and is a question mark himself now, wherever he plays, because of it. The back-up G is going to play next year at some point and is probably going to end up seeing fairly critical snaps (assuming they aren't for all intensive purposes eliminated in October again); he has to be someone better than Jerry -- which isn't a high standard, to be blunt.
That goes for most if not all teams: They're all nursing wounds and injuries going into next year..You can't just single out our Ol, our team..No reason to expect Schwartz(given his injury) not to rebound, Richburg not to improve and get stronger, Pugh(given his injury) not to be healthy and Beatty not to hold up his end on the L side..And what's this bs about Schwartz' 16 games? Who cares? When healthy, he was one of the higher ranked OL in FA..
They want to run the football and think it's one of the more important keys to them becoming a less shitty team.
I'm not supposed to single out their piss poor run blocking OL or, specifically, one of the, if not the, worst run blocking guards in the entire NFL? Huh?
Schwartz only starting 16 games once in his career matters in this discussion because if a 29 year old has only accomplished something like that once to this point, betting too heavily on him doing it now is foolish (see Jennings, Rashad) and their back-up plan to him, especially given their other concerns, should not be an established turd like Jerry.
It was piss poor because Schwartz effectively missed the season, Â
Pugh played with one arm and Richburg who shows a lot of promise had his up and downs..Beatty held up well..Walton will most likely be replaced with a drafted OL and/or a FA..
We ran the ball very well when Jennings was healthy..He had great vision and vet savvy..When he went down, we were fucked and Eric and I both said so..We had no one to effectively replace Jennings..Then of course the OL became a disaster with all the injury driven musical chairs..
You don't rest on your laurels when you're an average football team, at best, in terms of talent.
The OL is tip of the spear with regards to lacking talent. You could literally upgrade any of the five starting spots, so if the value matches up draft the player. Don't get too wrapped up in the incumbents.
That said, we're probably looking at the same starting five in '15 because of Reese's philosophy and the learning curve, and they will point to injuries as a main root cause.
that Schwartz was a damn good pick up. He started out slow at LG, then was injured early, and was a backup once he came back.
Doesn't mean he's a bad pickup, but the jury is still out on him simply because we don't have much to go by.
So, you can put Schwartz down as a TBD.
Put down Richburg as a promising draft pick in the plus column.
Other than that, it was business as usual for Reese: picking up injured players hoping they return to form (Walton), picking up low tier vet players who come cheap and play cheap but maybe will up their game, or hoping that the youngsters from years past finally step up to the plate. It's too much to hope that all the players step up, but in this case, none of them did (which is closer to normal for Reese than the other end of the spectrum, especially on the OL)
If Schwartz turns out good, it'll have been an ok year in the rebuilding plan, but if he busts, it'll have been another year of fiddling while the city burns.
Quote:
I made the suggestion as it drafts into the inherent strengths of this crop, at early glance. e.g, the value at OG appears stronger in the 3rd than the 2nd.
I don't draft for need, e.g, I won't draft OG in the 2nd strictly out of need, that's for UFA.
I understand and agree. Maybe we get a good Tackle at 1 or 2? I just feel very strong that we need at least two very big upgrades MINIMUM to this O-line to really exploit the excellent weapons we have.
And I also agree with the poster who said if JR doesn't fix the line this year (as he was supposed to do last year) he does deserve to be fired!
Unless the Giants have a hidden gem or a guy they are just so much higher on than others, you generally don't get an OL who can play LT at a high level at 40 or later.
If the Giants want an LT it is going to have to come in FA (don't know of any and would likely cost a fortune) ,trade, or very likely somewhat high in round 1.
Walton might have been a whiff, but as depth, might prove valuable..Jerry, too..He wasn't brought in to start, but Schwartz injury gave us no choice..He's also more than adequate depth..
We will hopefully bring in a solid starter at OT..We'll fortify our depth in FA on the OL..
They need to invest more, make it an immediate priority.
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
if he's off the board I have no problem going OL in rd 1 though
Must be a slow day.
Quote:
Certainly there's more work to do
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Nicky, he passed on Zach Martin, so there was no screw-up there
Including the last draft.
JPP, Thurman, Donnell, Bowman, Rolle, Hynoski
Two starting caliber Safeties
Two starting caliber OL
Two Starting caliber LB
Players with potential at
Rotational DT, WR, TE
The first 3 draft picks should be considered starting caliber (maybe not day one). So that means three quality FAs and some solid vet signings.
Beatty - Iupati/Schwartz - Richburg - Pugh/Draft - Draft/Pugh.
Depth: Schwartz (most likely), other OL draft pick.
On top of that, this gives us depth AND flexibility. We'd have a very capable starter off the bench, and the ability to cut bait with Beatty after next year by allowing the high draft pick to slide over to LT (if the Giants deem Beatty's contract as too expensive).
Like the overall thinking, but we aren't paying Schwartz 16 mill to ride the pine.
'15-'16:
Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-#9 Pick '15
'16-'17:
#9 pick '15-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-FA or draft pick
Quote:
In comment 12104061 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Certainly there's more work to do
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Nicky, he passed on Zach Martin, so there was no screw-up there
You are right. I forgot we passed on Martin. I just don't get why he would pick Richburgh after taking Walton. Seems like Richburgh was not part of the plan or if they knew Walton was a bust why take him in the first place. I can understand the gamble on Snee but I don't get the two centers.
1-How did Walton grade out according to the Giants?
2-Do they feel after having been unable to play for two years, that this was a getting in shape type year and thus is their C going into next year?
3-We know what BBI's general take is, but do the Giants view Richburg more as an OG than a C long term?
Gotcha
Look at the two teams in the Super Bowl. both have good running games (Seattle little better). It's a necessity, but shouldnt be forced. Giants have to impose their will on the other D and I just have not seeen that for a few years now.
And so, whomever they draft or sign via FA, the guy has to be phyiscal and capable of moving defenders the other direction.
So lets say we extend him for two additional years at less than 2 mil per year can we really find someone better in the draft or FA with his ability and knowledge of our offense. I know much like all of us we have just given the starting OC position to Richburg however even if he does win the position would Walton really be that bad a backup for the next several years?
And he is the first to give up on a play. When you watch the games he was usually the first OL guy to stand up straight and just stand there with the play continuing only a few feet away from him.
And it bombed big time, partly because his prize vet FA Schwartz got hurt, partly because none of the prior year's OL draftees stepped up at all (a continuing long-term problem with Reese/Ross management), and partly because the rest of the vet FAs he signed not turned out (not surprisingly) to be garbage. Pretty much total garbage.
So it looks like he has one more chance to fix this. He needs to sign at least one quality vet FA and draft a couple of OLs. With eight picks, even three would not be out of the question despite all of the other needs.
This has to be the top priority because the longer this situation goes unresolved, the more they are playing with fire because the odds of Eli getting hurtdue to a poor OL keep increasing.
And if Reese doesn't get it done this year, he really, really, really deserves to be fired.
Wouldn't mind the first part of this..OL, DL, OG..first 3 of draft.I would throw a DE in there as well. Seem to be deep though there this draft.
This as well.
I don't want to spend all our cap money on the OL. Everyone is sucking off Dallas for allocating all these resources to the OL and great, it paid off, for now...good luck in 2-3 years. Their D still sucks and won't get better.
The D needs work too.
The D needs work too.
It's head-scratching..In what universe is a starting line-up of Beatty, Pugh, Richburg and Schwartz indicative of a line that needs a lot of work? We'd love to get a starter to join them and most likely will during the draft..We'll certainly address OL depth in FA in addition to Jerry and Walton(if they are retained)..
I think the Giants do as well. They probably could have reached an injury settlement with him, but instead carried him through the entire season on IR.
I don't want to spend all our cap money on the OL. Everyone is sucking off Dallas for allocating all these resources to the OL and great, it paid off, for now...good luck in 2-3 years. Their D still sucks and won't get better.
Walton and Jerry are poor backups, because if they have to play they will suck. I don't think either one belongs on an NFL roster based on their play in 2014. Would you be comfortable if either guy ever had to play even in a pinch?
Quote:
and the depth will be fine. We can do a lot worse than having Walton, JErry and 3rd rounder as the backups.
I don't want to spend all our cap money on the OL. Everyone is sucking off Dallas for allocating all these resources to the OL and great, it paid off, for now...good luck in 2-3 years. Their D still sucks and won't get better.
Walton and Jerry are poor backups, because if they have to play they will suck. I don't think either one belongs on an NFL roster based on their play in 2014. Would you be comfortable if either guy ever had to play even in a pinch?
Actually, from some accounts, Jerry played well down the stretch..You can cite level of competition, but all teams encounter a bunch of shit along the way..But even if correct, it shouldn't be all that difficult to replace backups with other backups..
I'm more concerned about the RB situation..the LB..S..
Schwartz has only started 16 games once in his entire career, Pugh is coming off a bad season and elbow issue, and Richburg looked every bit the undersized rookie this season and is a question mark himself now, wherever he plays, because of it. The back-up G is going to play next year at some point and is probably going to end up seeing fairly critical snaps (assuming they aren't for all intensive purposes eliminated in October again); he has to be someone better than Jerry -- which isn't a high standard, to be blunt.
I'm not supposed to single out their piss poor run blocking OL or, specifically, one of the, if not the, worst run blocking guards in the entire NFL? Huh?
Schwartz only starting 16 games once in his career matters in this discussion because if a 29 year old has only accomplished something like that once to this point, betting too heavily on him doing it now is foolish (see Jennings, Rashad) and their back-up plan to him, especially given their other concerns, should not be an established turd like Jerry.
We ran the ball very well when Jennings was healthy..He had great vision and vet savvy..When he went down, we were fucked and Eric and I both said so..We had no one to effectively replace Jennings..Then of course the OL became a disaster with all the injury driven musical chairs..
RB needs a big upgrade..
The OL is tip of the spear with regards to lacking talent. You could literally upgrade any of the five starting spots, so if the value matches up draft the player. Don't get too wrapped up in the incumbents.
That said, we're probably looking at the same starting five in '15 because of Reese's philosophy and the learning curve, and they will point to injuries as a main root cause.
Doesn't mean he's a bad pickup, but the jury is still out on him simply because we don't have much to go by.
So, you can put Schwartz down as a TBD.
Put down Richburg as a promising draft pick in the plus column.
Other than that, it was business as usual for Reese: picking up injured players hoping they return to form (Walton), picking up low tier vet players who come cheap and play cheap but maybe will up their game, or hoping that the youngsters from years past finally step up to the plate. It's too much to hope that all the players step up, but in this case, none of them did (which is closer to normal for Reese than the other end of the spectrum, especially on the OL)
If Schwartz turns out good, it'll have been an ok year in the rebuilding plan, but if he busts, it'll have been another year of fiddling while the city burns.