@ConorTOrr: For what it's worth, heard Giants especially interested in OL, LB + S crop down here. Obvious, but sounds like more than one OL is the plan.
I expect 1 via FA to fill the one gaping hole (LG assuming Richburg shifts to C) and another guy in the middle rounds of the draft that can either back up the interior or be developed to take over for Beatty in 1-2 years.
Not to pick on Connor Orr (I actually prefer him to most other beat writers) but we kinda knew this would be the case. It's a no brainer. At least one hole to fill on the starting OL, and no backups to speak of. You'd have to think at least one OL in FA and two in the draft.
Of course, it's always nice to get confirmation that your hunches are accurate.
That sounds about right.
I said yesterday in another thread I think the Giants go, at least, 1 FA and 1 draft OL; if they get 2 starters in FA, or at least 1 and a good backup, they might swap off to D @9.
Knowing their injury history, they likely get as many top OL as they can so there is no dropoff like we had last year from a starter down to a Brewer/Moseley/Snyder/Reynolds group.
I could see OT, DL, OG as the first three picks from this crop. But, I wouldn't be shocked if they draft a WR early and take a flier on a DL later (whichever position isn't picked early, e.g. DE 2nd, DT later).
He tried his standard plan of signing rejects from other teams, hoping that at least one of the previous OL draftees would step up, and only drafted one OL player, Richburg.
And it bombed big time, partly because his prize vet FA Schwartz got hurt, partly because none of the prior year's OL draftees stepped up at all (a continuing long-term problem with Reese/Ross management), and partly because the rest of the vet FAs he signed not turned out (not surprisingly) to be garbage. Pretty much total garbage.
So it looks like he has one more chance to fix this. He needs to sign at least one quality vet FA and draft a couple of OLs. With eight picks, even three would not be out of the question despite all of the other needs.
This has to be the top priority because the longer this situation goes unresolved, the more they are playing with fire because the odds of Eli getting hurtdue to a poor OL keep increasing.
And if Reese doesn't get it done this year, he really, really, really deserves to be fired.
at least one tackle (I'd look to sign a FA RT, and draft a LT at #9 if BPA) and one guard probably 3rd round area.
My feelings exactly but only if they can get a starter at round 3 otherwise they need to go OL round 2 or 1 even after picking up a good starter in FA.
This line needs two starting upgrades. Beatty and Schwartz are both inconsistent and subject to injury. Losing one is not so bad but both and we are done because there is no decent depth behind them. And frankly, I don't consider them great run blocking starters. If Richburgh can be a great Center, we need two strong blocking guards or a RT and move Pugh inside. Without two major upgrades we are not going to establish a good running game yet again. I hope they really do know they need TWO upgrades to the O-line.
I made the suggestion as it drafts into the inherent strengths of this crop, at early glance. e.g, the value at OG appears stronger in the 3rd than the 2nd.
I don't draft for need, e.g, I won't draft OG in the 2nd strictly out of need, that's for UFA.
at least one tackle (I'd look to sign a FA RT, and draft a LT at #9 if BPA) and one guard probably 3rd round area.
I would agree generally, Jon; it's a de facto admission that R&R swung and missed in their OL makeover in 2014, except we have hopes for Richburg. For once, just once in recent memory, draft a friggin mean, tough, talented guy to protect Eli's ass and open up some holes for the running game--enough of this BS where you can't get a yard on 3rd or 4th and 1 ....
I made the suggestion as it drafts into the inherent strengths of this crop, at early glance. e.g, the value at OG appears stronger in the 3rd than the 2nd.
I don't draft for need, e.g, I won't draft OG in the 2nd strictly out of need, that's for UFA.
I understand and agree. Maybe we get a good Tackle at 1 or 2? I just feel very strong that we need at least two very big upgrades MINIMUM to this O-line to really exploit the excellent weapons we have.
And I also agree with the poster who said if JR doesn't fix the line this year (as he was supposed to do last year) he does deserve to be fired!
If we can get Iupati or Baluga, plus one of the top OL who can play T or G (I think Peat is one of these, correct?) we'd actually be in decent shape and have a functional line again.
Depth: Schwartz (most likely), other OL draft pick.
On top of that, this gives us depth AND flexibility. We'd have a very capable starter off the bench, and the ability to cut bait with Beatty after next year by allowing the high draft pick to slide over to LT (if the Giants deem Beatty's contract as too expensive).
RE: RE: As I've been saying, I'm expecting to add Â
at least one tackle (I'd look to sign a FA RT, and draft a LT at #9 if BPA) and one guard probably 3rd round area.
I would agree generally, Jon; it's a de facto admission that R&R swung and missed in their OL makeover in 2014, except we have hopes for Richburg. For once, just once in recent memory, draft a friggin mean, tough, talented guy to protect Eli's ass and open up some holes for the running game--enough of this BS where you can't get a yard on 3rd or 4th and 1 ....
CHP, thanks. Frankly, the needs are probably closer to Phil's suggestion than mine, but I'd be surprised if they loaded up as it means some men are losing their jobs (the loyalty factor rears its head).
Ideally, if BPA I'm going OT at #9 and FA RT, with the intent of setting up the edges for the next handful of years with real talent. By doing so, I think we have enough talent at OG and they're going to give Pugh and Schwartz every chance to succeed regardless.
Also, it's generally "easier" to manufacture OGs Â
I made the suggestion as it drafts into the inherent strengths of this crop, at early glance. e.g, the value at OG appears stronger in the 3rd than the 2nd.
I don't draft for need, e.g, I won't draft OG in the 2nd strictly out of need, that's for UFA.
I understand and agree. Maybe we get a good Tackle at 1 or 2? I just feel very strong that we need at least two very big upgrades MINIMUM to this O-line to really exploit the excellent weapons we have.
And I also agree with the poster who said if JR doesn't fix the line this year (as he was supposed to do last year) he does deserve to be fired!
Unless the Giants have a hidden gem or a guy they are just so much higher on than others, you generally don't get an OL who can play LT at a high level at 40 or later.
If the Giants want an LT it is going to have to come in FA (don't know of any and would likely cost a fortune) ,trade, or very likely somewhat high in round 1.
Schwartz was a damn good signing..That he effectively missed the entire year is not a swing and miss..Richburg was not a swing and miss as hopefully his move to C(probably needs to hot the weight room) will prove..Beatty was more than serviceable..Pugh is a good football player, whose best position MIGHT be OG AND whose elbow had to be a year-long problem for him..
Walton might have been a whiff, but as depth, might prove valuable..Jerry, too..He wasn't brought in to start, but Schwartz injury gave us no choice..He's also more than adequate depth..
We will hopefully bring in a solid starter at OT..We'll fortify our depth in FA on the OL..
I think it's more than fair to suggest their OL strategy missed. They chose to spend frugally to try and patchwork the unit, and injuries, poor choices, being cheap essentially all played into the collective failure.
They need to invest more, make it an immediate priority.
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Nicky, he passed on Zach Martin, so there was no screw-up there
If we can get Iupati or Baluga, plus one of the top OL who can play T or G (I think Peat is one of these, correct?) we'd actually be in decent shape and have a functional line again.
Depth: Schwartz (most likely), other OL draft pick.
On top of that, this gives us depth AND flexibility. We'd have a very capable starter off the bench, and the ability to cut bait with Beatty after next year by allowing the high draft pick to slide over to LT (if the Giants deem Beatty's contract as too expensive).
Like the overall thinking, but we aren't paying Schwartz 16 mill to ride the pine.
'15-'16:
Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-#9 Pick '15
'16-'17:
#9 pick '15-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-FA or draft pick
and Walton battle it out for the center job and Richburg doesn't beat him out we're in a real bad spot, because we already know Walton is terrible at center
RE: RE: RE: I just described reasons why I disagree.. Â
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Nicky, he passed on Zach Martin, so there was no screw-up there
You are right. I forgot we passed on Martin. I just don't get why he would pick Richburgh after taking Walton. Seems like Richburgh was not part of the plan or if they knew Walton was a bust why take him in the first place. I can understand the gamble on Snee but I don't get the two centers.
to answer your 3rd question Coughlin and Reese basically said with Francesa that they view Richburg as a center long term. Not those exact words but they made it clear he's a center
to answer your 3rd question Coughlin and Reese basically said with Francesa that they view Richburg as a center long term. Not those exact words but they made it clear he's a center
Gotcha
Giants need to be more physical in the middle of the oline….. Â
would Pugh being pushed to LG provide that physicality?! He just looks more finesse and less physical to me. He might be a better Guard because of his arm length and foot speed, but I just do not see the Giants moving other GOOD defenses off the ball. WE need to get back to running the ball and we need more physicality IMO.
Look at the two teams in the Super Bowl. both have good running games (Seattle little better). It's a necessity, but shouldnt be forced. Giants have to impose their will on the other D and I just have not seeen that for a few years now.
And so, whomever they draft or sign via FA, the guy has to be phyiscal and capable of moving defenders the other direction.
YAY!! It's patently obvious that they need the help. Â
Is kind of a wildcard on the OL I heard a lot of negatives from the OL starters but for the most part Walton's name was not thrown out much. He will be 28 this year and plays a position where most guys play well into their early or middle 30's. This was also his first full season back from the ankle injury, he may not have been pro bowl worthy but he was not the only or main problem on the line either.
So lets say we extend him for two additional years at less than 2 mil per year can we really find someone better in the draft or FA with his ability and knowledge of our offense. I know much like all of us we have just given the starting OC position to Richburg however even if he does win the position would Walton really be that bad a backup for the next several years?
Of course, it's always nice to get confirmation that your hunches are accurate.
They also might want some stiffer competition for Richburg. They aren't just going to anoint him the starting C.
I said yesterday in another thread I think the Giants go, at least, 1 FA and 1 draft OL; if they get 2 starters in FA, or at least 1 and a good backup, they might swap off to D @9.
Knowing their injury history, they likely get as many top OL as they can so there is no dropoff like we had last year from a starter down to a Brewer/Moseley/Snyder/Reynolds group.
They also might want some stiffer competition for Richburg. They aren't just going to anoint him the starting C.
Yeah, they pretty much are..:)
They also might want some stiffer competition for Richburg. They aren't just going to anoint him the starting C.
I fully expect Richburg/Walton to battle it out for the starting job, but I know many expect Walton to be cut.
And it bombed big time, partly because his prize vet FA Schwartz got hurt, partly because none of the prior year's OL draftees stepped up at all (a continuing long-term problem with Reese/Ross management), and partly because the rest of the vet FAs he signed not turned out (not surprisingly) to be garbage. Pretty much total garbage.
So it looks like he has one more chance to fix this. He needs to sign at least one quality vet FA and draft a couple of OLs. With eight picks, even three would not be out of the question despite all of the other needs.
This has to be the top priority because the longer this situation goes unresolved, the more they are playing with fire because the odds of Eli getting hurtdue to a poor OL keep increasing.
And if Reese doesn't get it done this year, he really, really, really deserves to be fired.
My feelings exactly but only if they can get a starter at round 3 otherwise they need to go OL round 2 or 1 even after picking up a good starter in FA.
This line needs two starting upgrades. Beatty and Schwartz are both inconsistent and subject to injury. Losing one is not so bad but both and we are done because there is no decent depth behind them. And frankly, I don't consider them great run blocking starters. If Richburgh can be a great Center, we need two strong blocking guards or a RT and move Pugh inside. Without two major upgrades we are not going to establish a good running game yet again. I hope they really do know they need TWO upgrades to the O-line.
I'm not sure we need another FART on the team
RT or Guards are both needed real badly.
Quote:
at least one tackle (I'd look to sign a FA RT, and draft a LT at #9 if BPA) and one guard probably 3rd round area.
I'm not sure we need another FART on the team
Can't believe that softball was left hanging for 15 minutes!
I don't draft for need, e.g, I won't draft OG in the 2nd strictly out of need, that's for UFA.
I would agree generally, Jon; it's a de facto admission that R&R swung and missed in their OL makeover in 2014, except we have hopes for Richburg. For once, just once in recent memory, draft a friggin mean, tough, talented guy to protect Eli's ass and open up some holes for the running game--enough of this BS where you can't get a yard on 3rd or 4th and 1 ....
I suspect the Giants add 1 veteran OL, 1 higher draft pick (rds 1-3), and 1 later draft pick (rd 4-7).
3 total guys to compete/replace the roster spots held by Reynolds, Moseley, Brewer, Herman.
The rest are emergency fill-ins or less than ideal.
FA doesn't seem to have too many good LT's and if they did, they'd cost a fortune.
Mara was less verbal this year but still made a point about the OL.
This comes as no surprise. I see our pick at 9 very likely being LT unless the value simply isn't there.
I don't draft for need, e.g, I won't draft OG in the 2nd strictly out of need, that's for UFA.
I understand and agree. Maybe we get a good Tackle at 1 or 2? I just feel very strong that we need at least two very big upgrades MINIMUM to this O-line to really exploit the excellent weapons we have.
And I also agree with the poster who said if JR doesn't fix the line this year (as he was supposed to do last year) he does deserve to be fired!
Beatty - Iupati/Schwartz - Richburg - Pugh/Draft - Draft/Pugh.
Depth: Schwartz (most likely), other OL draft pick.
On top of that, this gives us depth AND flexibility. We'd have a very capable starter off the bench, and the ability to cut bait with Beatty after next year by allowing the high draft pick to slide over to LT (if the Giants deem Beatty's contract as too expensive).
Quote:
at least one tackle (I'd look to sign a FA RT, and draft a LT at #9 if BPA) and one guard probably 3rd round area.
I would agree generally, Jon; it's a de facto admission that R&R swung and missed in their OL makeover in 2014, except we have hopes for Richburg. For once, just once in recent memory, draft a friggin mean, tough, talented guy to protect Eli's ass and open up some holes for the running game--enough of this BS where you can't get a yard on 3rd or 4th and 1 ....
CHP, thanks. Frankly, the needs are probably closer to Phil's suggestion than mine, but I'd be surprised if they loaded up as it means some men are losing their jobs (the loyalty factor rears its head).
Ideally, if BPA I'm going OT at #9 and FA RT, with the intent of setting up the edges for the next handful of years with real talent. By doing so, I think we have enough talent at OG and they're going to give Pugh and Schwartz every chance to succeed regardless.
Quote:
I made the suggestion as it drafts into the inherent strengths of this crop, at early glance. e.g, the value at OG appears stronger in the 3rd than the 2nd.
I don't draft for need, e.g, I won't draft OG in the 2nd strictly out of need, that's for UFA.
I understand and agree. Maybe we get a good Tackle at 1 or 2? I just feel very strong that we need at least two very big upgrades MINIMUM to this O-line to really exploit the excellent weapons we have.
And I also agree with the poster who said if JR doesn't fix the line this year (as he was supposed to do last year) he does deserve to be fired!
Unless the Giants have a hidden gem or a guy they are just so much higher on than others, you generally don't get an OL who can play LT at a high level at 40 or later.
If the Giants want an LT it is going to have to come in FA (don't know of any and would likely cost a fortune) ,trade, or very likely somewhat high in round 1.
Walton might have been a whiff, but as depth, might prove valuable..Jerry, too..He wasn't brought in to start, but Schwartz injury gave us no choice..He's also more than adequate depth..
We will hopefully bring in a solid starter at OT..We'll fortify our depth in FA on the OL..
They need to invest more, make it an immediate priority.
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
if he's off the board I have no problem going OL in rd 1 though
Must be a slow day.
Quote:
Certainly there's more work to do
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Nicky, he passed on Zach Martin, so there was no screw-up there
Including the last draft.
JPP, Thurman, Donnell, Bowman, Rolle, Hynoski
Two starting caliber Safeties
Two starting caliber OL
Two Starting caliber LB
Players with potential at
Rotational DT, WR, TE
The first 3 draft picks should be considered starting caliber (maybe not day one). So that means three quality FAs and some solid vet signings.
Beatty - Iupati/Schwartz - Richburg - Pugh/Draft - Draft/Pugh.
Depth: Schwartz (most likely), other OL draft pick.
On top of that, this gives us depth AND flexibility. We'd have a very capable starter off the bench, and the ability to cut bait with Beatty after next year by allowing the high draft pick to slide over to LT (if the Giants deem Beatty's contract as too expensive).
Like the overall thinking, but we aren't paying Schwartz 16 mill to ride the pine.
'15-'16:
Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-#9 Pick '15
'16-'17:
#9 pick '15-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-FA or draft pick
Quote:
In comment 12104061 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Certainly there's more work to do
Here is the miss I saw BB56..... They pick up a supposedly starting Center in FA (Walton). Then in the draft they miss out on the guard they wanted due to everyone going OL ahead of us at 12 so they waited till later in the draft, fine, but why did they take another center? They picked up two centers in the off season when they had other o-line needs to fix forcing us to use Richburgh at LG.
As it turns out, Richburgh may be a good choice at center (though we don't know yet) but only because Walton was such a disaster at Center. I think JR got thrown completely off his game because the good guards he was targeting all went before our pick. All those QBs that were supposed to be picked before us did not happen and their was a run on OL guys. That screwed up JR's plan and I still say his alternate plan sucked as far as fixing the line because it is currently far from fixed.
Nicky, he passed on Zach Martin, so there was no screw-up there
You are right. I forgot we passed on Martin. I just don't get why he would pick Richburgh after taking Walton. Seems like Richburgh was not part of the plan or if they knew Walton was a bust why take him in the first place. I can understand the gamble on Snee but I don't get the two centers.
1-How did Walton grade out according to the Giants?
2-Do they feel after having been unable to play for two years, that this was a getting in shape type year and thus is their C going into next year?
3-We know what BBI's general take is, but do the Giants view Richburg more as an OG than a C long term?
Gotcha
Look at the two teams in the Super Bowl. both have good running games (Seattle little better). It's a necessity, but shouldnt be forced. Giants have to impose their will on the other D and I just have not seeen that for a few years now.
And so, whomever they draft or sign via FA, the guy has to be phyiscal and capable of moving defenders the other direction.
So lets say we extend him for two additional years at less than 2 mil per year can we really find someone better in the draft or FA with his ability and knowledge of our offense. I know much like all of us we have just given the starting OC position to Richburg however even if he does win the position would Walton really be that bad a backup for the next several years?