Lets talk a little DL here (draft)

It will be interesting to see if the DL at #9 grade out higher than OT and WR.

In comment 12104158 JonC said:

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It will be interesting to see if the DL at #9 grade out higher than OT and WR.

Should be 343.

A steal at 74.

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Can you envision the Giants drafting a questionable starter (DE), in a 4-3, at #9? Very risky and if it fails, the GM would be crucified. IMO, highly unlikely.

In comment 12104173 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

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Not huge on Fowler. I'll have him somewhere in the 35-45 range but I don't see the fit in the 4-3. He is too light in the pants. His upside is a Melvin Ingram type, probably needs a 3-4 only.

In comment 12104177 Simms11 said:

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Can you envision the Giants drafting a questionable starter (DE), in a 4-3, at #9? Very risky and if it fails, the GM would be crucified. IMO, highly unlikely.

What I think NYG should do doesn't correlate with what I think they will do.

They are a pretty stubborn group of decision makers in the draft I think. So to answer your question, I do not think they will draft Ray at #9, or even consider him.

How would you compare those 3 guys as prospects. Who fits best here?

I'm not a big fan of any of these edge rushers at #9.

Shelton on the otherhand is my guy right now. Eats space makes plays. Simple to see the impact with him.

seems like a strong possibility. We have 2 known good quantities on the DL, and that's assuming JPP resigns.

Because he does seem to have a little too much Sintim in him.

Odds are they won't go that way though. And he could be taken before then.

In comment 12104183 Osix_ said:

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How would you compare those 3 guys as prospects. Who fits best here? I'm not a big fan of any of these edge rushers at #9. Shelton on the otherhand is my guy right now. Eats space makes plays. Simple to see the impact with him.

Ray is the most explosive of them all. He can go 0-60 right away with good pad level and functional power. He doesn't weight a lot, but he hits as hard as anyone.

Dupree is the best fit for a traditional 4-3 scheme. He might have the most upside of the three.

Fowler if a scheme/role specific guy that I don't see being a dominant caliber guy at all. Solid? Yes. But nothing I would go crazy over.

were you grading prospects when Osi came out? Curious to see if he would fall in the same category as a guy like Ray.

In comment 12104202 giants#1 said:

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were you grading prospects when Osi came out? Curious to see if he would fall in the same category as a guy like Ray.

I wasn't scouting at that time.

Right now I get the feeling there will be more value at 9 at other positions including D-line than O-line. No blue goose tackle for offense in this draft.

But as of right now, do you grade Shelton as highly as you graded Donald last year? Obviously Shelton is more of a NT and doesn't explode like Donald does. But he might be the better prospect because of how rare elite guys at his size are.

is a Spags type.

In comment 12104215 Osix_ said:

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But as of right now, do you grade Shelton as highly as you graded Donald last year? Obviously Shelton is more of a NT and doesn't explode like Donald does. But he might be the better prospect because of how rare elite guys at his size are.

Completely different players, but Shelton will likely finish with a very similar, maybe even higher, grade than Donald.

Nate Orchard, looked like someone who might present some nice value..nice opportunity as a speed rusher.

Anderson, DE from Stanford seemed versatile with some decent get off.

though, looked really good. A versatile DE/DT type. I'd expect a 3-4 team would look at him in the mid to late first as an end.

Does all the little things right and he is so long and strong. JJ watt type

And as much as I think the OL is priority number one, I also think the DL is priority number one A, with Safety close behind.

I have always been in the "winning starts up front" camp, as is TC, so I don't care how they address these needs as long as they give them priority over receivers, corners, or other positions where they are pretty well set, and even over other obvious needs like 'backers, TEs, and RBs.

Do you think Clowney still goes #1 after such a lackluster season? Williams and Watt on the same DL would be sick.

I was impressed by how effective he was rushing the passer in the 2 and 3 point stance. I also like his overall effort and competitiveness. I wouldn't compare him to Melvin Ingram in any way other than they're both not particularly tall. Fowler is a better athlete and is physically different... long arms and cut body. I'll be very interested to see his exact measurements at the combine.

I don't think Shane Ray can play 4-3 end at all, but if the team is convinced he's a special athlete, then that may merit a change to a Seahawks' style of 4-3 defense.

In comment 12104252 Osix_ said:

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Do you think Clowney still goes #1 after such a lackluster season? Williams and Watt on the same DL would be sick.

I don't think anyone would have passed Clowney at this time last year. Monday Morning QBs will say Clowney shouldn't have gone #1...but everyone would have seen him as #1 no matter what.

will never be far from the Giants' minds this offseason. If Shelton is there I could see them jumping at the chance to put him next to Hankins. I'm sure a lot of it depends on their opinion of Bromley.

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He had a good Shrine week of practices and game. Low production at Miami but maybe because of playing out of position as a 3-4 DE instead of 4-3. I like his first step, how he turns power into speed and his motor. Top 100 maybe?

In comment 12104300 sjnyfan said:

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He had a good Shrine week of practices and game. Low production at Miami but maybe because of playing out of position as a 3-4 DE instead of 4-3. I like his first step, how he turns power into speed and his motor. Top 100 maybe?

Top 100 is a possibility. He looked good at Shrine but the OL talent there was pretty bad.

He was put in to a tough spot at Miami having to play in a 3-4. I don't see any star in him, but a solid 4-3 DE that can backup both spots and play 1-15 snaps per game? Sure.

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I know we have Bromley on the roster and he may yet start but you don't pass up big bodies who can not only stop the run but also push the pocket some.

He doesn't factor in to a Shelton decision.

Kiper apparently said he could have a 1st round grade. He'll measure well and probably run well and there is some good tape, but he doesn't look like a first round talent to me.

In comment 12104312 Dunedin81 said:

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Kiper apparently said he could have a 1st round grade. He'll measure well and probably run well and there is some good tape, but he doesn't look like a first round talent to me.

He has a lot of tape where he does look the part. And he is pretty tools rich. Here is my summary from my report on him:

Junior entry. Tools-rich with a high ceiling if he can continue to physically develop on the current track he has been on. Harold will also need to improve his skill set. He needs to work on his pass rush repertoire and consistent use of technique and mechanics. He shows superb movement in space and plays an aggressive brand of football. He knows how to finish and there is a lot of quick reaction associated with his game. He should be viewed as a developmental prospect that won’t need too long before he is ready for an important role as an edge rusher.

Final Grade: 3rd round

had a really solid year. Do you see him as a 3rd round guy?

Also, Lorenzo Mauldin interests me. He could be the type of guy that fills the role the Giants had pegged for O'Brien Schofield.

for the rotation. Then draft a Spags type pass rush DE in the draft. Might take another DT late.

Joseph was good and would have been a decent luxury but I am not losing sleep over his departure. I just wish we could add a legit body next to Hankins. Joseph was just that...but maybe we can replace him with a better talent via FA or the draft.

yet.

a revolving door at DT.....should have kept Cofield instead of Canty.......maybe we should have kept LJ.......

...Shawn Oakman opted to return to Baylor for another season. Exactly the type of player I'd like to see Spags coaching up. He would have been a real possibility at #9 and the perfect fit for Giants scheme.

favorites: Williams, Shelton, Armstead, Davis, the kid from UCLA, and Malcolm Brown.

Don't think we'll get anywhere near Williams, and I don't want to trade up to do so. Shelton would be great at #9. Incredibly stout against the run, and with surprising good pursuit. Not just a phone booth guy. He and Hankins would be a great pair of DTs. Bring Bromley in for relief and on pass rush downs.

I still think Armstead should have gone back for another year, especially after being plagued by his ankle injury. But there is no question about his size speed combination. Could easily see him being BPA at #40, but he's likely to go before then IMO.

Davis would be a great pick at #40. Doesn't offer quite what Shelton does, but he's taller, and again, he and Hankins would really do wonders for the run defense.

I also like Eli Harold. He'd be a great pick in the third, but I'd be surprised if he lasts that long.

We need OL and DL, and this draft is loaded in those areas.

DT, OL or S in the first round. WR, TE or DE in the 2nd round. Sign a starting S and a starting OL, another LB in free agency. Look for RB depth later in the draft.

That WR from Miami seems to be a good fit for them.

In comment 12104408 AcidTest said:

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favorites: Williams, Shelton, Armstead, Davis, the kid from UCLA, and Malcolm Brown. Don't think we'll get anywhere near Williams, and I don't want to trade up to do so. Shelton would be great at #9. Incredibly stout against the run, and with surprising good pursuit. Not just a phone booth guy. He and Hankins would be a great pair of DTs. Bring Bromley in for relief and on pass rush downs. I still think Armstead should have gone back for another year, especially after being plagued by his ankle injury. But there is no question about his size speed combination. Could easily see him being BPA at #40, but he's likely to go before then IMO. Davis would be a great pick at #40. Doesn't offer quite what Shelton does, but he's taller, and again, he and Hankins would really do wonders for the run defense. I also like Eli Harold. He'd be a great pick in the third, but I'd be surprised if he lasts that long. We need OL and DL, and this draft is loaded in those areas.

Exactly right about Bromley coming in for relief. You clearly need 3 DTs in today's NFL. Nothing wrong with having a #1, #2 and #3 round pick rotation! If DT Shelton is there and I think he will be I say pick him up!

is probably one of the most over rated players in this draft.

A Ngata type is very appealing even though the team needs OL.

Tougher draft to figure this year when compared to last year IMO.

In comment 12104396 Torrag said:

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...Shawn Oakman opted to return to Baylor for another season. Exactly the type of player I'd like to see Spags coaching up. He would have been a real possibility at #9 and the perfect fit for Giants scheme.

Too raw. Was smart to go back for more seasoning.

...the point being it would have been good for us if he entered the draft. I agree that IF he stays healthy he will be a strong candidate for a top 3 selection in 2016. IMO Oakman would still have cracked the Top 10 this year.

In comment 12104396 Torrag said:

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...Shawn Oakman opted to return to Baylor for another season. Exactly the type of player I'd like to see Spags coaching up. He would have been a real possibility at #9 and the perfect fit for Giants scheme.

He's awful. That guy, IMO, has bust written all over him. Watched him multiple times and he doesn't pursue much at all. Low motor IMO. Looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane.

Could change the complexion of the D. He's my #1 want for the pick...As a fan at this time where he may be there, and I think in addition to "stopping the run" he's a complete player.

Also, I think with 4-3 ends, unless elite, there are only 1/2 the teams running the 4-3 and a pick in rd 2 or 3 will yield someone decent if the Giants don't like Moore, JPP, Wynn, Ayers and want a 5th DE in case they franchise JPP which I think makes sense.

brings top 10 bang. he's one of the only guys u can feel good about passing on the pass rushers who dont fit ur system for.

he's have a star lotulelei/haloti ngata impact on the D. and even better, hankins is best at the 3T which allows shelton to slide into the nose

JPP RDE, Hankins RDT, Shelton NT - good luck running on that

unless he graded really high, and he might be a bit too small for a top 10 grade. Also, we know NYG prefers to avoid high bust rate positions and correlating contracts in the first round, DT being one of them.

6'4 320+ and larger for their DTs, Marvin Austin being a misnomer and bad swing and miss. They'll pay cheap UFA money to the smaller DTs like Patterson, with an occasional bargain to a Cullen Jenkins. I'd wager Shelton isn't top 10 on their board.

When you think of the top 4-3 defense their great DT play comes to mind.

Detroit- Suh/Fairley
Bills- Williams/Dareus
Carolina- Lotulelei/Short

NYG- Hankins/???

spending on Canty was an exception.

Very athletic guy, can get to the passer, but is he too light (250 lbs) and weak against the run?

In comment 12104991 JonC said:

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spending on Canty was an exception.

I disagree just look at the Tackles I named

Dareus- 3rd overall pick 2011
Lotulelei- 14 overall pick 2013
Suh- 2nd overall pick 2010
Fairley- 13 overall pick 2011

While there are exceptions, NYG (Reese) aren't among them.

In comment 12104906 area junc said:

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brings top 10 bang. he's one of the only guys u can feel good about passing on the pass rushers who dont fit ur system for. he's have a star lotulelei/haloti ngata impact on the D. and even better, hankins is best at the 3T which allows shelton to slide into the nose JPP RDE, Hankins RDT, Shelton NT - good luck running on that

Like Shelton but we have a rare opportunity for a top LT if the value is there. If there is an LT of close value to the rest of the field at 9, I honestly would be surprised if we selected another position.

In comment 12104869 DavidinBMNY said:

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Could change the complexion of the D. He's my #1 want for the pick...As a fan at this time where he may be there, and I think in addition to "stopping the run" he's a complete player. Also, I think with 4-3 ends, unless elite, there are only 1/2 the teams running the 4-3 and a pick in rd 2 or 3 will yield someone decent if the Giants don't like Moore, JPP, Wynn, Ayers and want a 5th DE in case they franchise JPP which I think makes sense.

Complexion of D will change by virtue of a new, more aggressive system.

...but the Giants have taken a DT on Day Two between #49 and #74 in four of the last five drafts. Joseph and Hankins were excellent picks, Austin washed out and the jury is out on Bromley.

They could easily go to that well again in 2015. Even if they like Bromley, there's plenty of room behind him, Hankins and the rapidly-aging Cullen Jenkins.

Right on.

Aside from Markus Kuhn near the end of the 2011 draft, the Giants don't even bother taking fliers on DTs after the middle of Round Three.

Here's another example: In the last nine drafts, the Giants have spent nine premium picks - ranging from Beckham at #12 to Manningham at #95 - on wide receivers, counting the two that went toward securing the dubious services of Sinorice Moss. Oddly, they haven't taken a single WR below #95 during that period: the last was Jamaar Taylor in 2004. Apparently, they don't see much chance of a late pick panning out there - which is ironic, considering how they hit the jackpot with Victor Cruz. Maybe the philosophy is that, once you get past the third round, the receivers left on the board are all long shots to do anything as pros, so you might as well use your picks elsewhere and sign UDFAs like Cruz, then fill the bottom of the roster with minimum-salary vets like Preston Parker.

Anyway, until I see them do something different, I will expect NYG to round up the usual suspects in Rounds 1-3: WR, DT, DE, with the occasional DB, OL or RB if value aligns with need.

Agreed, and thank you for the examples and your always insightful and concise posts.

I think the key needs are 2 safeties, 2 OL, 2 LB, and one DT.

First year safeties, unless elite, tend to take a while to develop. I think we will look to fill those positions with 2 top FAs.

Linebackers can also take a while so I think we will get one top FA and a high pick for reserve strength.

Only an elite DT prospect is likely to have an immediate impact so I think they will go Shelton if he is there.

I think they will go one high draft pick and one top FA for the OL.

Lower picks and cheaper FAs will be used for LB depth, DT depth, TE depth, RB depth, Wr depth, DE depth, and OL depth.

Next years final 53 roster could/should have
2 new safeties
3 new LBs
2 new DTs
1 new RB
3 new OL
1 new TE

We have some young talent and depth at wr, de (assumes JPP), and CB.

You're pointed in the correct direction, but need to infuse your post with the last line in Blogger's prior post to cover how they'll likely use their first three draft picks. They have a larger need at DE, and it's a premium position. There might not be a DE worthy at #9, but at this stage it's part of the projecting equation.

Not written in stone, but it's been pretty predictable under Reese.

Is that what you're post is saying? Not sure

They need a DE right now to potentially start opposite JPP or replace him, and they tend to look at DE very early. Make no mistake, Ayers et al are good players but readily upgradeable in terms of starter material.

Problem is there might not be one in this draft worthy of #9.

just needed to be sure what you meant

Wynn and Moore could do quite well under Spags

As I ponder the current roster, the upcoming draft,FA, subsequent needs along with system, front office philosophy etc. here's my take on it.

In free agency:

I think the Giants will at least get one Safety in FA along with re-signing Rolle to a more cap friendly deal. He is the elder statesman and emotional leader of the secondary. Unless he's slowed down a ton, he is kind of like the Sam Madison of this group. I think we need to keep him along with bringing in a guy like McCourty (if not too pricey) or someone like the KC kid that KWALL mentioned.

I do think we'll stockpile a bit at WR as GB likes to do. And I see us making a run at Cobb as he has familiarity with the GB system which is likely pretty similar to what MacAdoo is running here. Also we can't assume Cruz will be 100% next year.

JPP must be resigned. Either tag which won't be ideal as it will eat cap or a long term deal with a cap friendly 1st year.

DT depth will be brought in and Reese is good at finding bargains here.

I see a vet coverage LB or hybrid S/LB brought in especially if Jaquain is not brought back.

A vet TE who is at least a decent pass catcher to be brought in to pair with Donnell.

Draft:

1st round
I see the stars aligning for that LT @9. Giants were rumored to want Solder before NE traded up and snatched him. Reese has spoke about the value of a 'blue-goose' LT. Well as of now, the Giants have one true LT on the roster who isn't elite , is inconsistent and somewhat injury prone. Eli is aging and isn't mobile to begin with. Between Peat,Collins,Clemmings, and Flowers I am banking on one of these guys to be there and have a high grade for projectability for that LT spot. Plug whomever that guy is at RT or OG and then shift him to LT in a year (or sooner if Beatty goes down again).

2nd round
This class is stocked at WR. While not quite last years class which will likely end up a historic one, it is damn strong. Between the growing list of guys at WR/TE -Dorial Green-Beckham,Rashad Green,Sammie Coates,Ty Montgomery, Lockett, Jalean Strong, Maxx Williams, Devin Funchess one of these guys will be available at 40 (while an LT would not). I think BPA at 40 is very likely to be one of these guys and the Giants will go to the well here again.

3rd round

As Blogger has mentioned we have went DT/DE here quite often in recent years. Could that Trail guy be in the mix?

they won't be good enough to not draft better DE talent, and the same goes for OL, LB, etc.

Utilize premium draft picks to infuse talent at premium positions.

"Anyway, until I see them do something different, I will expect NYG to round up the usual suspects in Rounds 1-3: WR, DT, DE, with the occasional DB, OL or RB if value aligns with need."

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grin.

In comment 12105184 JonC said:

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Right on.

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lol, he eats all our steak.

It does not look like there is not a DE who will be there that rates the #9 pick. It is also questionable if there is an OL that does although it looks like we may have a shot to take the first OL off the board.

I think we will go Shelton, then OL, then best LB/S/RB Possible OL, then best DL with 1 and 2.

A lot can and will change. I don't think we are far off from being a pretty solid team if our wounded warriors return to form.

In comment 12104379 Phil in LA said:

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yet.

Agreed, he really didn't play that much as a rookie. The guy has the drive, just needs more playing time evaluate him. I can see an OT in the 1st and DE in the 2nd, just looking at BPA and needs.
1 Andrus Peat OT
2 Arik Armstead DE
3 Denzel Perriman ILB
4 Clayton Geathers SS
5 Eric Rowe CB
6 Christian Lombard OG
7 Marcus Murphy RB