I haven't really been on BBI this week, and I searched for this topic but didn't see anything posted - if it has been, I will delete.
While, to say the least, I don't think the NFL will take the advice of a USA Today columnist and rescind the Patriots' win over the Colts, here are a couple of modest proposals that may actually punish the Patriots in the Super Bowl:
- Do away with the coin toss, and declare that the Seahawks have the option to receive both the first and second half kickoffs and choose which goal to defend.
- Declare that the Patriots have no timeouts, or at least less than the full allotment of three per half.
To me, measures like these would tangibly punish the Patriots a lot more for their cheating -- and deter future cheats -- than a paltry fine or docking them draft pick(s).
If the complaint is that these measures would unduly affect the play of the game....sorry, so does breaking the rules about ball inflation pressure.
What do you think? Any other similar ideas?
Personally I think the biggest failure is on the NFL itself for having such a strange system for providing footballs for games. That needs to be overhauled.
I also think this story has little to no legs if it were the Seahawks. But because it's New England, because of Spygate, and above all because the media detests Belichick...this has become a bigger issue than it probably actually is.
Personally I think the biggest failure is on the NFL itself for having such a strange system for providing footballs for games. That needs to be overhauled.
I also think this story has little to no legs if it were the Seahawks. But because it's New England, because of Spygate, and above all because the media detests Belichick...this has become a bigger issue than it probably actually is.
Agree on all of your points here Terps
You are punishing a team before the investigation is complete not to mention ruining the Super Bowl by doing that.
You are punishing a team before the investigation is complete not to mention ruining the Super Bowl by doing that.
Not to mention giving advantages to an undeserving team that flaunts plenty of rules of its own...
Part of what makes Belichick better than his peers is that he looks for every possible edge. I'm sure if we were on the inside we'd see other practices that straddle the line between an edge and cheating. It's on the league to police that.
Well he got caught here, and because it's him and the media feels scorned that he doesn't provide the quotes to fill their endless useless articles, they're going to call on Goodell to come down hard on him. And Goodell just might do that, because he'll do anything to take the light off the joke of a job he's done as commissioner in the past year.
What an awful year for the NFL...the story is always off the game itself with that league.
Don't kid yourselves, they think they're smarter than everyone else, yet they do stupid shit like this that is completely unnecessary. This IS cheating, and it's cheating in the stupidest possible way.
As for their punishment, there isn't going to be one. Belichick passed the buck to Tom Brady, who will speak at 4pm today, say he has no idea how the balls got deflated below the limit, and we'll be left with the league having no proof of anything nefarious, even though you'd have to be an idiot to believe that neither Brady nor Belichick had anything at all to do with it.
All that's going to happen is that the teams will ultimately lose their right to handle the footballs before games, which is how it should have been in the first place.
Man...those ideas suck.
Take draft pick(s) away and fine the team. But let the Super Bowl play out competitively as it should be.
They were heavily fined and lost a 1st round draft pick, I think.
Let them play the game though.
In no case said anything to anyone.
they already have to scuff the balls. why not let them play with the balls in the condition they think will make them more successful?
If you want to deter cheating to obtain a competitive advantage, make it hurt the cheaters by imposing a competitive disadvantage.
In no case said anything to anyone.
I read that the teams use different balls.
they already have to scuff the balls. why not let them play with the balls in the condition they think will make them more successful?
They already do this. The Pats were below the range.
Even if it was some sort of idiotic "eye for an eye" punishment, logically you'd do it for a matchup with the Colts, since the Seahawks weren't effected by the cheating.
Personally I think the biggest failure is on the NFL itself for having such a strange system for providing footballs for games. That needs to be overhauled.
I also think this story has little to no legs if it were the Seahawks. But because it's New England, because of Spygate, and above all because the media detests Belichick...this has become a bigger issue than it probably actually is.
I find myself constantly agreeing 100% with the fan of Terrapins.
Maybe I'm leaping to a conclusion but they got caught cheating before and got caught cheating again. How many times did they cheat throughout the course of 15 years where they didn't get caught. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to think that they didn't intentionally deflate the balls for this game. Does anybody think that this wasn't a common practice for them. (Check out Brady's cold weather stats).
I think there is rampant cheating going on by that team and it needs to be dealt with.
Maybe I'm leaping to a conclusion but they got caught cheating before and got caught cheating again. How many times did they cheat throughout the course of 15 years where they didn't get caught. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to think that they didn't intentionally deflate the balls for this game. Does anybody think that this wasn't a common practice for them. (Check out Brady's cold weather stats).
I think there is rampant cheating going on by that team and it needs to be dealt with.
I also don't think anyone is stupid enough to think other teams do a lot of the same shit...
This is really getting out of hand. And why the league needs to end this today. Announce a fine. Take a draft pick. Done.
Obviously you work with either a Colts/Ravens fan or a complete moron.
Do away with the coin toss? The Patriots cheat their asses off against the Colts, so the Seahawks automatically get the ball twice?
The Patriots cheat their asses off against the Colts, so the Seahawks get to play in the Super Bowl against a team without a normal share of time outs?
This post felt like trolling to me.
Does NE still stockpile them?
The league should handle the game balls from here on out.
Cheating is a crime by the Pats vs. 31 other teams, so a punishment must be on the Pats vis a vis 31 other teams. Like a draft pick or suspensions or fines.
IF they can finish the investigation and any appeals and IF, as he said today, Belichick knew nothing about it, someone must have directed them.
IF it was Brady or an assistant coach / coordinator, that person should be suspended for the Super Bowl. Fines and draft picks etc. come after.
Screw that. If they lose a pick, it's gone. The Colts don't deserve it. They got their asses kicked.
Not sure why Colts should benefit from this over anyone else. It's not like the deflated footballs were the reason the Colts got their asses handed to them.
I bet Seattle wouldn't even want those benefits, let alone why would they deserve them. If they won they would be cheated because their "win" would forever have an asterisk next to it.
So the "give the picks to Colts" crowd, would have picks going to Ravens too.
It's ridiculous to propose that as how the punishment should be handled.
natefit
Maybe the Commissioner will write them a really nasty letter and tell them how mad he is, too?
I think you guys are not looking at this in the correct frame of mind. If the Pats are where they are because they had a competitive advantage, they can't then be placed in the same position as if they had gotten there cleanly. Think about it for a minute.
natefit?
Read the last few posts.
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Who is suggesting giving their picks to the Colts?
natefit
Thanks, I missed it. I agree, you can't give the picks to the Colts.
Likewise, who in their right mind, when faced with the chance to go to the Super Bowl, would NOT cheat to gain a competitive advantage if all that is lost is a draft pick and $25K?
Maybe the Commissioner will write them a really nasty letter and tell them how mad he is, too?
I think you guys are not looking at this in the correct frame of mind. If the Pats are where they are because they had a competitive advantage, they can't then be placed in the same position as if they had gotten there cleanly. Think about it for a minute.
The issue comes down to "two wrongs don't make it right" approach by most posters in response to your suggestions.
As you suggested, one team won because of unfair competitive advantage, which is definitely wrong. But to try to right that by giving another team an unfair competitive advantage is wrong.
The infractions have (potentially) already taken place and will be dealt with. You don't then go ahead and created another instances of unfair advantage. That's not how justice is served.
Likewise, who in their right mind, when faced with the chance to go to the Super Bowl, would NOT cheat to gain a competitive advantage if all that is lost is a draft pick and $25K?
False equivalencies to bolster your weak argument isn't going to convince others that your original suggestions weren't that great.
Maybe the Commissioner will write them a really nasty letter and tell them how mad he is, too?
I think you guys are not looking at this in the correct frame of mind. If the Pats are where they are because they had a competitive advantage, they can't then be placed in the same position as if they had gotten there cleanly. Think about it for a minute.
We're not the ones in the wrong frame of mind. You want to give a competitive advantage to a team that doesn't deserve it AND change the fundamental rules of the sport for one game resulting in a giant asterisk if the Seahawks win.
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If the penalty for stealing $1 million were a $10,000 fine, who in their right mind would NOT steal the $1 million?
Likewise, who in their right mind, when faced with the chance to go to the Super Bowl, would NOT cheat to gain a competitive advantage if all that is lost is a draft pick and $25K?
False equivalencies to bolster your weak argument isn't going to convince others that your original suggestions weren't that great.
How is it a "false equivalency"? It's an example to show the same logic at work - if the payoff for cheating is much greater than the potential penalties, cheating will pay off every time.
As for my examples, if you don't like those particular ones, fine. If they can't be placed at a competitive disadvantage somehow, then maybe take away all their draft picks, or something that will really deter future violators. But to suggest that taking away a draft pick and a $25K is adequate punishment for cheating and sufficient deterrence for future cheating is a joke.
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Let me ask again - if all a team loses by cheating to gain a competitive advantage is a draft pick and a nominal fine, who the hell WOULDN'T pay that price in exchange for a chance at a Super Bowl?
Maybe the Commissioner will write them a really nasty letter and tell them how mad he is, too?
I think you guys are not looking at this in the correct frame of mind. If the Pats are where they are because they had a competitive advantage, they can't then be placed in the same position as if they had gotten there cleanly. Think about it for a minute.
We're not the ones in the wrong frame of mind. You want to give a competitive advantage to a team that doesn't deserve it AND change the fundamental rules of the sport for one game resulting in a giant asterisk if the Seahawks win.
It's not a matter of giving a benefit to the Seahawks but punishing the Patriots.
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In comment 12105152 lawguy9801 said:
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Let me ask again - if all a team loses by cheating to gain a competitive advantage is a draft pick and a nominal fine, who the hell WOULDN'T pay that price in exchange for a chance at a Super Bowl?
Maybe the Commissioner will write them a really nasty letter and tell them how mad he is, too?
I think you guys are not looking at this in the correct frame of mind. If the Pats are where they are because they had a competitive advantage, they can't then be placed in the same position as if they had gotten there cleanly. Think about it for a minute.
We're not the ones in the wrong frame of mind. You want to give a competitive advantage to a team that doesn't deserve it AND change the fundamental rules of the sport for one game resulting in a giant asterisk if the Seahawks win.
It's not a matter of giving a benefit to the Seahawks but punishing the Patriots.
And by doing that you are giving the benefit to the Seahawks (a team with its own laundry list of infractions).
But by doing so, the result is still the same. So how is that not giving the Seahawks a competitive advantage?
To be clear, I'm assuming that there will be a finding that this was intentional wrongdoing.
:)
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It's not a matter of giving a benefit to the Seahawks but punishing the Patriots.
But by doing so, the result is still the same. So how is that not giving the Seahawks a competitive advantage?
If Tom Brady is found to have ordered that the balls be deflated, should he be suspended for the SB? And if so, wouldnt that be an even bigger advantage for Seattle?
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In comment 12105171 lawguy9801 said:
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It's not a matter of giving a benefit to the Seahawks but punishing the Patriots.
But by doing so, the result is still the same. So how is that not giving the Seahawks a competitive advantage?
If Tom Brady is found to have ordered that the balls be deflated, should he be suspended for the SB? And if so, wouldnt that be an even bigger advantage for Seattle?
But that is a suspension, which has been previously doled out as punishment. It doesn't change the integrity of the game as changing the rules for one game. If that's the punishment, then so be it.
Seriously, you're a bright guy, I don't understand how you don't see the difference between suspension (which has been used as a punishment previously) and actually changing the rules of the game.
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In comment 12105171 lawguy9801 said:
No he should be fined. Should Marshon Lynch be suspended for violating the rules by grabbing his crotch.
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It's not a matter of giving a benefit to the Seahawks but punishing the Patriots.
But by doing so, the result is still the same. So how is that not giving the Seahawks a competitive advantage?
If Tom Brady is found to have ordered that the balls be deflated, should he be suspended for the SB? And if so, wouldnt that be an even bigger advantage for Seattle?
I think the Pats are gonna lose two 1st round picks and a second round pick.
And Belichick will be fined 1 million dollars.
LOL
No he should be fined. Should Marshon Lynch be suspended for violating the rules by grabbing his crotch.
I think the Pats are gonna lose two 1st round picks and a second round pick.
And Belichick will be fined 1 million dollars.
That is wildly excessive.
It makes sense from his perspective. First, he finishes his very poor season looking like he made a tough, controversial, but "correct" decision. Most in the media and most of the fanbases who don't like Belichick or the Patriots will support it. As will the owners.
Second, he calms the circus. He sure as hell doesn't want media day, the coaches press conferences, his press conference next week overtaken by 450 questions on it. There will still be plenty of questions but I think he'll make a calculated guess that it won't be as frenetic with Belichick gone. Also he doesn't want Belichck going "no comment" and "on to Seattle" nonstop for the whole week.
So, yeah. I don't agree with that and honestly don't even think this is as grievous a thing as people are making it, but I have a feeling Goodell is going to do this.
If I were a Seattle fan, I would NOT want anything to taint a victory by a rules change.
The only thing that is possible would be to suspend a player(s) or a coach(es) for the game if the evidence was overwhelming and there was very, very clear evidence of intent to cheat AND lie about it afterwords.
If need be, come down on the Patriots like a ton of bricks AFTER the game.
It makes sense from his perspective. First, he finishes his very poor season looking like he made a tough, controversial, but "correct" decision. Most in the media and most of the fanbases who don't like Belichick or the Patriots will support it. As will the owners.
Second, he calms the circus. He sure as hell doesn't want media day, the coaches press conferences, his press conference next week overtaken by 450 questions on it. There will still be plenty of questions but I think he'll make a calculated guess that it won't be as frenetic with Belichick gone. Also he doesn't want Belichck going "no comment" and "on to Seattle" nonstop for the whole week.
So, yeah. I don't agree with that and honestly don't even think this is as grievous a thing as people are making it, but I have a feeling Goodell is going to do this.
Do you really think suspending the best coach in the game for the Super Bowl is going to calm the circus for the NFL? This isn't even a circus, it's just a product of sports media needing something to talk about that isn't Xs and Os (even basic Xs and Os) for some reason. Suspending Belichick would turn it into a Barnum & Bailey grand finale and would certainly not get the "kudos, Roger" sentiment you claim it would.
both are equal to me...the SB is the Season ... BB for no season costs them a season...
The issue is BB, Kraft, The Pats are repeat offenders...
Do you really think suspending the best coach in the game for the Super Bowl is going to calm the circus for the NFL? This isn't even a circus, it's just a product of sports media needing something to talk about that isn't Xs and Os (even basic Xs and Os) for some reason. Suspending Belichick would turn it into a Barnum & Bailey grand finale and would certainly not get the "kudos, Roger" sentiment you claim it would.
No, I don't. But that wasn't what I said or at the very least meant to say. As mentioned I think suspending Belichick is wrong and not something I agree with or would do. As I don't think this is as big a deal as it is being made out to be.
My opinion that he will be suspended is based on the misguided look out for yourself commissioner of the NFL who is one of the worst in American sports history. That's what I meant by that post. I was saying why I think Goodell will suspend him. What his basis for it would be.
I don't think he should suspended. I don't even know if any type of "punishment" is even warranted. As I don't think this is a big deal, and I'm sure has been done many times in many other places.
Man, those Harbaughs are a whiny bunch.
If any player was involved, their suspension should follow the same as Belichick's.
The punishment is very strong, but given their track record appropriate. Keeping BB away from the Patriot's facility all offseason will be an even strong message than the first game. But putting them on a nationally televised game opening day next season, without BB, will be an embarrassment that they will not forget.
they already have to scuff the balls. why not let them play with the balls in the condition they think will make them more successful?
They do give an acceptable range. The Pats were 2lbs under that range, thus the scandal about it
What the Patriots did doesn't bother me in the least. This is the NFl's failure. You let teams provide balls, they can do what they want to them, even make them illegal. The burden is on the rulekeepers to catch and prevent it. They didn't.
Belicheck lives on the edge of the rules, and also on the edge of innovation. Think about how he had the RB declare Ineligible against the Ravens a few different times, which opened up TEs - that's genius, and you don't see other guys at this level doing things like this.
Well in a way the mere fact that the balls were under by 2 lbs is proof of guilt. Finding the actual person who requested this will never be found out because the important people involved with the Pats that directly benefited from this will never admit it.
They will blame the ball boy (who will be let go with a nice compensation)
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Reports already are that the Ravens alerted the Colts to the issue.
Man, those Harbaughs are a whiny bunch.
I thought I read that too and went back and looked for it. It's actually a fine of AT LEAST $25,000. So the NFL can impose greater punishment if they wish.
Aaron Rodgers even said that the refs often deflate the balls that he has over-inflated during games, without getting in trouble. Doesn't seem like anything to be concerned with.
Has Eli commented?
taking game balls and deflating them after the officials certified them is beyond belief
these idiots continue to thumb their noses at the league and the game
Suspend them both, immediately and indefinitely.
I was astounded to learn this. Makes no sense to me.
Aaron Rodgers even said that the refs often deflate the balls that he has over-inflated during games, without getting in trouble. Doesn't seem like anything to be concerned with.
Has Eli commented?
Who are these multiple QB's that have come out and said they do this? I have seen Brad Johnson claim he and Gannon both wanted scuffed up balls for the SB, I have heard of other QBs that want scuffed balls (Which all fall within the rules). I see where Rodgers has come and said his balls have air let out by the refs before the game, but that is what is supposed to happen with the way the rules read. What happened here was approval of the balls by the refs, THEN they were messed with. Not one other QB has come and said they do that that i have seen.
Hello?
In all seriousness, this^^^
It's like a holding call during a game. A flag is thrown, yard are marched off, onto the next play.
This is a witch hunt, pure and simple. There is a a high level of envy, jealousy, and resentment towards the Pats. So what should be akin to not paying a toll, turns into this insanity that a bank was robbed.
The media is the ultimate enabler because they need to generate ratings; and this is a great subject to package up as a public crisis because they mostly despise Belichick's demeanor...
If you want to deter cheating to obtain a competitive advantage, make it hurt the cheaters by imposing a competitive disadvantage.
You dont think losing a draft pick, specially a high pick, creates a competitive disadvantage?
It does, and for an extended period.
I dont know the percentages, but I'd imagine a high percentage of players picked in the top 2 rounds make a reasonable contribution to their teams. Sometimes high draft picks dont live up to expectations/potential but they still do contribute.
It didn't used to be this way. Brady and Peyton Manning are the main two big names that pushed for the change.
Link - ( New Window )
Troy Aikman: Patriots punishment should exceed Saints bounty punishment http://wp.me/p14QSB-9GZP
They should be fined and maybe have a pick or two taken away. Suggesting that Bill should be suspended for a full year (or more) or for the freaking Super Bowl is ludicrous.
It is AMAZING how poorly run such a large organization can be.
Considering how much money teams, players & coaches make, a fine would be the most lenient punishment the league can impose. It would be nothing more than a slap on the wrist, something to appease the fans.
Why have a rule if you're going to let teams break it? If so, which rules are ok to break, and which one are not? And who decides?
Scuffing balls, breaking them in, is acceptable and within the rules. Thats what teams/QBs do. Deflating balls beyond the set limit is not.
I cant understand the everybody does it argument. Do we know of any other team KNOWN TO THE LEAGUE to have deflated the balls without receiving any sanctions?
Holding
Illegal Contact
Pass interference
Any type of personal foul
Hands to the face
Intentional grounding
Unecessary roughness
Chop-block
Clipping
All of these are rules that are broken every week. Some are allowed, some are punished.
Belichick is at least a 2 time winner of Coach of the year (voted by the media) and the league was complicit in destroying spygate evidence (sure they have their own agenda there, but nonetheless it helps the Pats).
And Kraft and Goodell are known to have a great relationship.
If anything the league will come down less hard because it's the Pats than they might otherwise IMO.
The Saints punishments for Bountygate were much worse than the Pats for spygate.
I thought it was at 4
I thought it was at 4
Had to walk Gisele's dog.
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Why have a rule if you're going to let teams break it? If so, which rules are ok to break, and which one are not? And who decides?
Holding
Illegal Contact
Pass interference
Any type of personal foul
Hands to the face
Intentional grounding
Unecessary roughness
Chop-block
Clipping
All of these are rules that are broken every week. Some are allowed, some are punished.
Those are judgement calls that have to be made on the fly. The pressure inside a ball isnt. A simple pressure gauge gives you an accurate reading. Not even comparable.
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Why have a rule if you're going to let teams break it? If so, which rules are ok to break, and which one are not? And who decides?
Holding
Illegal Contact
Pass interference
Any type of personal foul
Hands to the face
Intentional grounding
Unecessary roughness
Chop-block
Clipping
All of these are rules that are broken every week. Some are allowed, some are punished.
Those are judgement calls that have to be made on the fly. The pressure inside a ball isnt. A simple pressure gauge gives you an accurate reading. Not even comparable.
That was true before instant replay.
Regardless, those balls are handled and abused by more guys than Brett's balls at a gay bar.
Regardless- it's such a damned non-issue. The refs already took care of it at halftime- anything beyond that should be nothing more than a fine, a warning, and extra scrutiny until it's determined they're not doing it anymore.