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They won't draft Shelton at #9 , here's why....

sxdxca : 1/24/2015 7:00 pm
Because even though Shelton is a good player , he's a run stuffing DT. The giants already have one in Hankins.

What they need is a pass rushing DT to compliment Hankins. With that being the case , If all the good DE's are gone , don't be surprised if they take Eddie Goldman DT Florida state.

Walter football has him going at the #14 pick , and he's a pass rush DT.

However if any of the top DE's are available , like Gregory , Fowler , or Shane Ray , don't be surprised if they nab one of those guys first....


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Has there been any indication..  
Dunedin81 : 1/24/2015 8:51 pm : link
that they view Bromley as a part of the solution? We heard good things about Hankins and Joseph during what were effectively redshirt years, I don't remember hearing any of that this year. It doesn't mean they don't like him, and certainly we've heard good things about guys who turned out to be nonfactors, but you'd think we'd hear some positives, no?
You  
AcidTest : 1/24/2015 9:04 pm : link
win and lose in the trenches, and for the foreseeable future we will be dealing with a very strong Dallas OL. Hankins needs help, and if he goes down, we're really screwed. Jenkins and Patterson aren't getting it done, and at least one won't be back. Bromley is more for passing downs, Kuhn for ST. DT is an immediate need. Shelton or Davis please.
Good DT's  
BigBlueCane : 1/24/2015 9:06 pm : link
are worth far more then CB's are.

RE: Linval was a very good player for us  
yatqb : 1/24/2015 9:20 pm : link
In comment 12108040 David in LA said:
Quote:
I would have liked to see him come back, but given our cap situation, resigning him might have cost us a shot at DRC. We had Hankins waiting in the wings as his replacement, and he is already a better player than Joseph ever was. Jenkins and Patterson were stop gap solutions. Bromley likely replaces one of them. I wouldn't be against drafting another DT early. Not having a Hankins/Joseph combo in the middle is not the reason why our defense sucked ass this year. Our mediocre LB's, poor safety play, and inconsistent pass rush ultimately did us in.


David, I'd argue that Joseph was a more important piece than DRC, and that we were getting gashed up the middle dues to terrible play by our off DT, AND our lack of a MLB. But Joseph would have been a big part of the solution here. Instead we have to once again draft a DT in the first few rounds. That sucks. Joseph to Hankins to Bromley to ???
Hankins  
mrvax : 1/24/2015 9:31 pm : link
can rush the passer. Get another run stuffer that can collapse the pocket and force the bastid outside where JPP & Moore can get 'em.
Sign Suh  
Giants2012 : 1/24/2015 9:55 pm : link
and OL
stop kidding yourselves  
blueblood : 1/24/2015 9:56 pm : link
Giants arent signing SuH..
RE: Sign Suh  
Mike in NY : 1/24/2015 9:57 pm : link
In comment 12108128 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
and OL


With what money?
RE: Joseph signed 6 year 36 Million contract in 2011  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/24/2015 9:59 pm : link
In comment 12108034 LionelManuel said:
Quote:
Exactly who would you have cut from our Super Bowl team to keep him? And exactly what does signing Beason in 2014 have to do with this decision?


Um do you watch the Giants. Joseph signed his deal last year in 2014. And the Giants could have easily used the $$$ they gave Beason last offseason. Maybe they would have had to do some other work but what are you talking about for the last Super Bowl team and a 2014 FA?
Hankins was drafted to be Linval replacement..  
blueblood : 1/24/2015 10:02 pm : link
get over it.. he is gone.. he got 9million from Minnesota last year.. Giants were not and should not have paid him 9 million..

Shelton has nothing to do with Hankins.. They will need replacements for Jenkins and Patterson as well as an upgrade over Kuhn..
Forget Suh.  
Klaatu : 1/24/2015 10:04 pm : link
Sign Stephen Paea.
And yet..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/24/2015 10:07 pm : link
if Beason wasn't signed (to a very reasonable contract I might add), some of you same reactionary idiots would be saying that Reese ignores LB's.

Just like Cofield, Joseph wasn't staying here for what he was worth. That isn't reese - that is NFL Economics 101
you would think Giants fans would get it by now  
blueblood : 1/24/2015 10:11 pm : link
Giants drafted Joseph to replace Cofield.. and then drafted Hankins to replace Joseph..

You dont overpay for guys who are basically two down run stuffers..

Hankins is showing that he is more than that..
RE: Hankins was drafted to be Linval replacement..  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/24/2015 10:13 pm : link
In comment 12108138 blueblood said:
Quote:
get over it.. he is gone.. he got 9million from Minnesota last year.. Giants were not and should not have paid him 9 million..

Shelton has nothing to do with Hankins.. They will need replacements for Jenkins and Patterson as well as an upgrade over Kuhn..


Why so people purposefully try to lie.

He got a long term deal and they front loaded his contract. The Goants could have matched his the guaranteed money Fine they chose not to but its absolute bull shit to pull out that 9 million for 2014 as the reason why they didn't sign him. He got a 5 year deal w 12.5 guaranteed. But thanks for being another Jerry Reese shill. Like we need more of those here.
if they had passed on Beason to keep Joseph  
BigBlueCane : 1/24/2015 10:15 pm : link
at least they would have had a valid reason (injury history) to fall back on.

RE: RE: Sign Suh  
Giants2012 : 1/24/2015 10:16 pm : link
In comment 12108133 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 12108128 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


and OL



With what money?


With all the cap space in 2016. Finance him. It's easy
You are so..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/24/2015 10:21 pm : link
fucking dense.

Quote:
Why so people purposefully try to lie.

He got a long term deal and they front loaded his contract. The Goants could have matched his the guaranteed money Fine they chose not to but its absolute bull shit to pull out that 9 million for 2014 as the reason why they didn't sign him. He got a 5 year deal w 12.5 guaranteed. But thanks for being another Jerry Reese shill. Like we need more of those here.


It is a simple Economic decision that you are trying to turn into people being "shills" for the GM?

What does that make you - a poster who thinks he knows better than the GM and proudly displays his stupidity in trying to prove it?

The giants were not keeping Joseph without putting themselves in a cap-poor situation. That isn't a lie- that is a fact. A fact most NFL teams face, especially ones with Franchise QB's who rightfully occupy a lot of cap space.

In calling people shills, it would be damn nice if you at least had a perspective of NFL Economics.
RE: Forget Suh.  
BigBluDawg : 1/24/2015 10:22 pm : link
In comment 12108139 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Sign Stephen Paea.


Paea is rated as the second best free agent DT behind Suh, I doubt he comes cheap but I would definitely love the signing.
RE: actually hankins and shelton can rush the passer  
damdevs : 1/24/2015 10:28 pm : link
In comment 12107955 GiantsFan84 said:
Quote:
you remember those teams Jacksonville had under Tom? Henderson and Stroud? What about Kevin and Pat Williams in Minnesota? Or Siragusa and Adams in Baltimore? Having two very good and very big DTs makes all the difference in the world.
What difference is it in a league that throws the football more....a lot more? The rules have been skewed towards the offense and teams are throwing the ball to take advantage of it.

Some numbers for you...

Passing attempts 17,879 - total yards 121,247
Rushing attempts 13,688 - total yards 57,002

Passing Tds - 807
Rushing Tds - 380

I understand what your point is, but that was 15-20 years ago. Now you see so much 3-4 Wrs sets, your number 3 Wr is basically a starter now. Its a different era.

I have no idea what direction we'll go in as far as the draft goes. We really won't until we get through the free agency period, but if we can't get to the QB with a good pass rush then it won't matter.
RE: RE: Forget Suh.  
Klaatu : 1/24/2015 10:39 pm : link
In comment 12108152 BigBluDawg said:
Quote:
In comment 12108139 Klaatu said:


Quote:


Sign Stephen Paea.



Paea is rated as the second best free agent DT behind Suh, I doubt he comes cheap but I would definitely love the signing.


I may be in the minority, but I'd rather not spend any free agent money on the O-Line, and instead use it to bolster the defense (and maybe sign a TE, too). D-Line and Safety would be my top priorities.
DT in round 1  
msh : 1/25/2015 7:00 am : link
seams like a luxury pick they cant afford they have much more glaring needs i want them to add an OT in round 1 failing that improve the pass rush with a DE or if they feel there is a LB or S worth the price in round 1 i would even go with that

i would even rate a WR ahead of DT in terms of need jerrnigan is likely gone,randle only does anything the last month of the year to keep his spot and they dont know how that injury to cruz could affect him and they need someone to ease the pressure and focus on beckham

this giants team won its superbowls be out muscling teams on the OL and DL,they have got away from that the last few years pugh,hankins and richberg are a start now lets finish the lines rebuild be devoting the majority of FA and draft picks to strengthing the trenches and upgrading at LB and S where they have got old,injured and softer for too long
RE: RE: actually hankins and shelton can rush the passer  
dguy901 : 1/25/2015 11:02 am : link
In comment 12107991 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 12107955 GiantsFan84 said:


Quote:


you remember those teams Jacksonville had under Tom? Henderson and Stroud? What about Kevin and Pat Williams in Minnesota? Or Siragusa and Adams in Baltimore? Having two very good and very big DTs makes all the difference in the world.

Exactly right. This is the BS we heard last year when we let Joseph walk. Then Reese reached for Bromley and our defense sucked again.

Geez, give Bromley a chance. In his limited playing time, I thought he got penetration, had several hurries against starting OG's. He only played in 8 games and didn't start any of them. Hankins didn't start a game in 2013, played in 11 games and had 0 sacks! Would you chastize his selection too???
RE: You  
dguy901 : 1/25/2015 11:10 am : link
In comment 12108052 AcidTest said:
Quote:
win and lose in the trenches, and for the foreseeable future we will be dealing with a very strong Dallas OL. Hankins needs help, and if he goes down, we're really screwed. Jenkins and Patterson aren't getting it done, and at least one won't be back. Bromley is more for passing downs, Kuhn for ST. DT is an immediate need. Shelton or Davis please.

Bromley was basically redshirted for the season, the same for Hankins in his 1st year. You have no basis for the evaluation you present on Bromley. And there were comments made (forgat what articles) about Bromley beating starting OL-men to hurry the QB. I see nothing to indicate he won't be as good in his 2nd year as Hankins in his. Neither player recorded a sack in their 1st year. IMHO.
O-line  
jLefty : 1/25/2015 4:42 pm : link
been lobbying for the lawt two seasons regarding improving the offensive line. Hope thee' an OT who makes a good ninth selection.
RE: O-line  
Coach Mason : 1/25/2015 5:46 pm : link
In comment 12108758 jLefty said:
Quote:
been lobbying for the lawt two seasons regarding improving the offensive line. Hope thee' an OT who makes a good ninth selection.


As JonC and others mentioned at 9 , Reese will likely only go for a lineman who can play LT.

Is there a guy out there that will rank among the other premium impact positions at 9? I think Peat and maybe La'El Collins. Then less of a possibility but Flowers and maybe Clemmings may show enough to warrant consideration. Combine may shed some more light.

RE: RE: You  
Coach Mason : 1/25/2015 5:48 pm : link
In comment 12108418 dguy901 said:
Quote:
In comment 12108052 AcidTest said:


Quote:


win and lose in the trenches, and for the foreseeable future we will be dealing with a very strong Dallas OL. Hankins needs help, and if he goes down, we're really screwed. Jenkins and Patterson aren't getting it done, and at least one won't be back. Bromley is more for passing downs, Kuhn for ST. DT is an immediate need. Shelton or Davis please.


Bromley was basically redshirted for the season, the same for Hankins in his 1st year. You have no basis for the evaluation you present on Bromley. And there were comments made (forgat what articles) about Bromley beating starting OL-men to hurry the QB. I see nothing to indicate he won't be as good in his 2nd year as Hankins in his. Neither player recorded a sack in their 1st year. IMHO.


Giants seem to trust their thorough scouting evaluations and will stick with a high draft pick longer than most. They knew Bromley was slightly developmental , I think they are still quite high on him and expect bigger things from him in year 2.
sxdxca's original post is so filled with  
idiotsavant : 1/25/2015 5:57 pm : link
misinformation and misaprehension. not sure where to start
Unless I missed something watching 2015....  
Jimmy Googs : 1/25/2015 6:08 pm : link
is there a position on the Defense that couldn't use some type of upgrade or impact player?






(hint: NO)

Unlikely to draft DT at #9  
JonC : 1/26/2015 9:40 am : link
period, it just doesn't match up with their draft philosophy.
big men who can play on either line are a valuable commodity, we need  
plato : 1/26/2015 11:36 am : link
big nasty men on both lines, that includes TE
I bet its gonna be WR, DE, or T  
Curtis in VA : 1/26/2015 12:00 pm : link
.
RE: Unlikely to draft DT at #9  
chris r : 1/26/2015 12:04 pm : link
In comment 12109615 JonC said:
Quote:
period, it just doesn't match up with their draft philosophy.


I think its a mistake to confidently infer a drafting philosophy with so few data points. Would you have guessed Wilson or Pugh? Everyone said the Giants don't value RB or OL highly because they hadn't taken one in the first round for awhile. I think you may be doing the same thing.

radar  
JonC : 1/26/2015 12:11 pm : link
It goes beyond that and I've repeatedly posted it on other threads in recent weeks.

They simply do not value DTs that high in drafts. Late 1st? Historically no. They clearly slot DT value starting in the early 2nd round, and Reese has stated as such in the past.

DT historically carries a high bust rate, and Reese has yet to hand a market rate contract to a drafted DT. Hankins figures to possibly be the first.

Not definitive, but "unlikely" isn't unreasonable.

They value premium positions (QB, DE, WR, LT, CB) at premium draft slots (evaluated per draft and indicated on their draft board), and Pugh and Wilson were both picked after the premiums didn't intersect, imv. Neither position (RT or RB) would have been picked in the true premium range of either draft.
If there is no one that is a LT type they like or rated high  
blueblood : 1/26/2015 12:13 pm : link
Giants will draft a playmaker.. that means a DE or WR


thats just my gut feeling..
I don't really follow the Vikings, but didn't Joseph have a  
Greg from LI : 1/26/2015 12:14 pm : link
disappointing season?
RE: I don't really follow the Vikings, but didn't Joseph have a  
jcn56 : 1/26/2015 12:16 pm : link
In comment 12109863 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
disappointing season?


Apparently, according to everyone but TMS.

How anyone could've watched this team last year and be stuck on LJ walking being a major problem is beyond me.
Disagree  
Rong5611 : 1/26/2015 12:18 pm : link
Our LB's suck. Put this guy and Hankins up front, it helps the D stop the run. And, both can rush the passer.

I don't think we should overlook this guy just because he is a DT if he's the best impact player available.
s/b Early 1st? No.  
JonC : 1/26/2015 12:24 pm : link
and not late 1st either, under Reese.
RE: radar  
Coach Mason : 1/26/2015 2:19 pm : link
In comment 12109852 JonC said:
Quote:
It goes beyond that and I've repeatedly posted it on other threads in recent weeks.

They simply do not value DTs that high in drafts. Late 1st? Historically no. They clearly slot DT value starting in the early 2nd round, and Reese has stated as such in the past.

DT historically carries a high bust rate, and Reese has yet to hand a market rate contract to a drafted DT. Hankins figures to possibly be the first.

Not definitive, but "unlikely" isn't unreasonable.

They value premium positions (QB, DE, WR, LT, CB) at premium draft slots (evaluated per draft and indicated on their draft board), and Pugh and Wilson were both picked after the premiums didn't intersect, imv. Neither position (RT or RB) would have been picked in the true premium range of either draft.


Jon, didn't the Giants say after drafting Pugh that they believed he could play LT too?

I fully concur with the above. I see very little chance (unless they deviate from their drafting patterns) that they draft a non-LT OL at 9.

This is why we won't see Scherff here but possibly Collins,Peat, Flowers and a lesser chance of Clemmings (if too developmental)

As for DT,agreed the bust rate is high. However if they see that rare player who has a sky high value, can pass rush, and is as close to a 'sure thing' they may deviate. Don't know if Shelton fits that lofty standard.

DE's as have been discussed, don't seem to fit the Giant prototype for a top pick.

No CB seems to be a shutdown Corner to warrant the #9 nor a Safety.

Eli has a few more years and has been extremely durable, so still a year or two early to pull the trigger at QB.

So chances are barring trade-down, this is very likely a WR or Lineman with potential NFL LT ability.
They did, but Pugh's grade wasn't in that premium range  
JonC : 1/26/2015 2:30 pm : link
He carried a first round grade in the top 20-25 of their draft board, according to Reese, in an obviously very ordinary first round crop of talent that year.

At that point, I'd agree it's clear they could look at non-premium positions, and we know for sure that NYG drafts men they really like and will even overdraft them.

By contrast, in last year's first round  
JonC : 1/26/2015 2:34 pm : link
there appeared to be close to 20 prospects in the premium grade range, and we picked a WR at #12, predictably.

I'd agree it's quite possible they just go OL or WR at #9, but there's plenty of evaluations coming soon.
The question to me becomes  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/26/2015 2:36 pm : link
what happens if the Giants decide to trade back with someone. This is a team in need of a talent infusion. The number nine slot in the draft gives some team out there a chance to move up in the top ten. Maybe they choose to make a move like that, if they feel they can target a player they like and get better value back a few spots.
I do tend to agree with JonC here  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/26/2015 2:46 pm : link
in so much as history seems to be on his side when it comes to how the Giants tend to approach the first round when it comes to the DT position.

I'm not shilling for Shelton here, just sort of thinking outloud about what this draft may look like if the Giants do indeed find a trade partner and back out of the top ten.
RE: They did, but Pugh's grade wasn't in that premium range  
Coach Mason : 1/26/2015 2:50 pm : link
In comment 12110099 JonC said:
Quote:
He carried a first round grade in the top 20-25 of their draft board, according to Reese, in an obviously very ordinary first round crop of talent that year.

At that point, I'd agree it's clear they could look at non-premium positions, and we know for sure that NYG drafts men they really like and will even overdraft them.


You think they still see Pugh as a potential LT? He had a bit of a down year but it sounded like he was playing hurt (and all lineman struggled with the new offense for a while).

Also for all the talk of FA lineman, if they add one and pay him a starter's salary (Franklin, Iupati, Barksdale, Boling) I just don't envision how they could go OL at 9 unless they are cutting someone.

I believe Reese has mentioned they expect their first rounders to start from day 1 in some capacity.

Do they get a guy in Free Agency like Franklin who can play OG and RT, then if a highly rated LT falls to 9, cut Beatty after the draft? Or pick up a depth guy with eyes solely on a high round OG or OT likely in round 1 or 2.
No, I think they want to kick Pugh to LG  
JonC : 1/26/2015 2:51 pm : link
Look for a FA RT, and very possible a LT at #9.
If I'm correct  
JonC : 1/26/2015 2:53 pm : link
they wouldn't need to spend on a FA OG, (they're going to give Pugh and Schwartz every chance to succeed at the OGs in this scenario) and they will have drafted WB's successor.
RE: No, I think they want to kick Pugh to LG  
Coach Mason : 1/26/2015 2:53 pm : link
In comment 12110139 JonC said:
Quote:
Look for a FA RT, and very possible a LT at #9.


OK so:

Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Scwartz-FA RT

where does the #9 pick LT go?
RE: If I'm correct  
Coach Mason : 1/26/2015 2:55 pm : link
In comment 12110143 JonC said:
Quote:
they wouldn't need to spend on a FA OG, (they're going to give Pugh and Schwartz every chance to succeed at the OGs in this scenario) and they will have drafted WB's successor.


I prefer this plan the most actually but would Gmen let their #9 pick essentially red-shirt his rookie year?
I'm not so concerned about that, '15 could be WB's last chance  
JonC : 1/26/2015 2:56 pm : link
If they're really confident going OT at #9, perhaps they run the risk and skip the FA RT.
RE: RE: If I'm correct  
JonC : 1/26/2015 2:58 pm : link
In comment 12110147 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 12110143 JonC said:


Quote:


they wouldn't need to spend on a FA OG, (they're going to give Pugh and Schwartz every chance to succeed at the OGs in this scenario) and they will have drafted WB's successor.



I prefer this plan the most actually but would Gmen let their #9 pick essentially red-shirt his rookie year?


Not preferable, but a legit prospect might be able to unseat WB before very long.
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