you have to wonder why? he knew these stats would point to something odd going on. bill, you'ree telling me the patriots' practicing with inclement weather simulations withs slick footballs is the only reason why your team has been more effective since 2007 in holding on to the ball? NOTHiNG else is at work here?
cmon. if you aint cheatin you aint tryin - and these mother fuckers try every way they can to push the envelope to gain an advantage.
...Everyone knows how he likes to get his balls rubbed before a game, so his speculation that the balls were “heated up” and then cooled down and lost pressure is eminently reasonable.
I understand that Brady, too, likes his balls rubbed before a game. With so much ball-rubbing going on, doesn't it make sense that, after a certain point, those balls would become somewhat flaccid?
Officially over the deep end with his ludicrous press conference, the guy who never talks is now offering a science lesson, the comparisons to Bill Nye the science guy are spot on. He is coming across as a sad, strange little man.
They won not one, not two.... but three Super Bowls before this all began and haven't won any since.
Arc, that is a very, very simple way of looking at it. So New England has been to 3 Super Bowls, went undefeated once, won the division every year except for the Matt Cassel year where they were 11-5, and while I haven't looked it up, I'm going to guess they've had the best record in football since 2005....
But because the Giants fucked up their world for 8 quarters, somehow deflating footballs for years (IF it's proven to be the case) is inconsequential? Overwhelming ball security numbers that are off the charts and amazing performances in bad conditions... none of this matters anymore because they didn't win in either of the Super Bowls they've been to?
Seems like very little thought was put into that response.
12 years. Not a huge sample. And when did Pats start deflating the balls? That would probably cut the sample size down further. And where did they play those games? Against whom? Home games, weak opponents might skew the numbers further.
Folks have to chill on this a bit. Don't jump over every half baked analysis that comes out as "proof". These studies re being tossed together quickly. There is also probably a confirmation bias at work here. Data points that minimize the scandal aren't going to get much play right now.
They had a ton of success without the deflated footballs anyway. People want to discredit this entire regime and say none of it should count, it is all tainted, etc. It's silly.
I think there's an insane amount of overreaction to to this entire topic.
They should get fined and lose a couple picks. I don't know what else people want beyond that. To think this was never going on anywhere else before they got caught is naive.
12 years. Not a huge sample. And when did Pats start deflating the balls? That would probably cut the sample size down further. And where did they play those games? Against whom? Home games, weak opponents might skew the numbers further.
Folks have to chill on this a bit. Don't jump over every half baked analysis that comes out as "proof". These studies re being tossed together quickly. There is also probably a confirmation bias at work here. Data points that minimize the scandal aren't going to get much play right now.
I can't speak for others but that's not the case with me. If anything, the confirmation bias would work against me personally. My enjoyment of football is contingent on the game being played on the level. I don't want the integrity of the game compromised. I don't root for the Pats organization to fail.
For me, I'd be looking for reasons to bury this scandal.... it's not happening.
But because the Giants fucked up their world for 8 quarters, somehow deflating footballs for years (IF it's proven to be the case) is inconsequential? Overwhelming ball security numbers that are off the charts and amazing performances in bad conditions... none of this matters anymore because they didn't win in either of the Super Bowls they've been to?
I think his point is that none of this is meaningful as it pertains to New England's success because they were at least as successful before the league allowed teams to provide their own footballs as they have been since. So any unintended advantage that was gained by Tom Brady breaking in his own balls was minimal compared to the fact that they are a well-coached and well-run organization that has had unparalleled stability over the past 15 years.
They had a ton of success without the deflated footballs anyway. People want to discredit this entire regime and say none of it should count, it is all tainted, etc. It's silly.
I think there's an insane amount of overreaction to to this entire topic.
They should get fined and lose a couple picks. I don't know what else people want beyond that. To think this was never going on anywhere else before they got caught is naive.
I think people are sick and tired of Belichick's teams cheating. It's not just the deflated balls. This is the 2nd time his teams have been caught cheating. I don't care if it's deflated balls, taped practices or whatever the next offense is. I think a lot of people, myself included, are tired of the Pats doing things that compromise the game we love.
I think that is way off base. You and arc and many others keep concerning yourselves with people who want to put down the Pats' success. That's not me right now. I will look back on the Patriots' football consistency over the years with nothing but admiration.
I'm not looking to discredit the Patriots. I don't give a shit how history looks back on the Patriots. I'm bothered by their cheating and I want a deterrent in place tht will stop them from doing so. That's it.
is not confined to you personally. The point is that people looking at stats right now are looking for a certain result. Contradictory results are either going to be overlooked or not get publicized by the media. Who outside of NE wants to run a story right now that says "nothing to see here folks"?
And what happens if they beat Seattle a week from today? Â
They should get fined and lose a couple picks. I don't know what else people want beyond that. To think this was never going on anywhere else before they got caught is naive.
Why should they get fined or lose draft picks? They didn't do anything outside the rules. If the footballs fell outside the acceptable range for PSI, that is something the officials should've been on top of, not the Patriots. You don't depend on teams to call their own penalties, why depend on them to measure the PSI of their footballs? Why is it Tom Brady's job to make sure that the PSI falls within a certain range, his only concern is that the football feels right to him. And every QB in the league is given the same opportunity to make sure that the balls he will play with suits his personal preference and I doubt any of them say, "Oh, by the way, let's check the air pressure to make sure it falls within league standards." If it just so happens that Brady's preferred feel also lends itself to greater ball security for his receivers and running-backs, lucky for him.
Of course they did something outside of the rules. Â
Their footballs weren't within the regulated inflation range.
You break the rules, you pay the price. I just don't think the price should be as hefty as others and I don't think it's that big a deal.
But if all but one of their footballs wasn't inflated enough and yet the other teams were... there was obviously someone letting a little too much air out. Regardless of who it was. The weather excuse doesn't jive. And when you have guys saying they noticed it weeks ago and the Ravens tipping the Colts off, etc.. it has probably been going on a while.
You can't just say "eh, you broke the rules but we'll let it go" otherwise what the hell is the point of having the rule there in the first place? You'd be giving every team a get out of jail free card because they could then say "well, the Pats didn't get penalized.. they got a mulligan"
I'm bothered by their cheating and I want a deterrent in place tht will stop them from doing so. That's it.
At this point there is absolutely no proof that they are cheating, only that the balls which they prepared turned out to be outside the acceptable range under certain weather conditions during game time. If a team wins a game because an official blows a call, you don't say that the team won because they cheated, you say they won because the officials didn't do their job properly.
I'm bothered by their cheating and I want a deterrent in place tht will stop them from doing so. That's it.
At this point there is absolutely no proof that they are cheating, only that the balls which they prepared turned out to be outside the acceptable range under certain weather conditions during game time. If a team wins a game because an official blows a call, you don't say that the team won because they cheated, you say they won because the officials didn't do their job properly.
Milton. I don't even know how to respond to that. They cheated by deflating the balls. Then they eventually got caught, and that's why we are where we are.
Of course they did something outside of the rules. Their footballs weren't within the regulated inflation range. You break the rules, you pay the price.
You're assuming that they had to break rules in order for their footballs to fall outside the "regulated inflation range," and that is not necessarily the case. It could be that the Patriots did everything that was required of them by the league in preparing the footballs and that it was a flaw (or flaws) in the system that resulted in the footballs being non-regulation during game time.
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But if all but one of their footballs wasn't inflated enough and yet the other teams were... there was obviously someone letting a little too much air out. Regardless of who it was.
Maybe it's just that Andrew Luck likes his footballs a certain way that resulted in them not falling outside the allowable range during game time. Maybe he likes a harder ball because it makes for a tighter spiral and a better fastball. Nobody ever accused Brady of having the strongest arm in the game and maybe his preference for more squeezable balls has something to do with that.
The Patriots cheated. You want to tell me Belichick and might not be culpable and it's unfair to punish them without proof of their specific involvement, then that's a conversation worth having. But to say there is absolutely no proof the organization isn't responsible here is just insanity.
If factors beyond the Patriots control caused all those footballs to fall under the range, why was there 1 ball that didn't? They were all together, were they not?
What "factors" do you think caused this to happen if no one did it intentionally? And spare me the "cold air was the reason" argument. Because the entire set the Colts used stayed inflated within the rules. And even one of the Patriots' did as well.
"It could be that the Patriots did everything that was required of them by the league in preparing the footballs and that it was a flaw (or flaws) in the system that resulted in the footballs being non-regulation during game time."
what are you saying? The patriots knowingly exploited a loophole in the NFL officiating process using deceptive tactics to get an advantage of some kind?
sounds like this is actually worth the time to find out exactly what happened and just how far the Patriots organization will go to push the envelope towards tampering and cheating.
Milton. I don't even know how to respond to that. They cheated by deflating the balls. Then they eventually got caught, and that's why we are where we are.
Here's how you respond to it: you say, "Oh I see what you're saying now. You're saying that they did everything by the book according to the guidelines as laid out by the league, but that it resulted in the balls falling outside regulation PSI during game time. You're saying that the league is at fault for creating a flawed system. Now that I understand what you're saying, I agree with you 100%."
p.s.-- You don't have to respond exactly like that, it's just one example of an appropriate response. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
You're saying that they did everything by the book according to the guidelines as laid out by the league, but that it resulted in the balls falling outside regulation PSI during game time.
If there is even a small part of you that believes this then that's just... I mean, wow.
what are you saying? The patriots knowingly exploited a loophole in the NFL officiating process using deceptive tactics to get an advantage of some kind?
No. I'm saying that the Patriots unknowingly exploited a flaw in the guidelines for preparing footballs that may have resulted in them playing with a football that fell outside of regulation PSI during game time (and was easier on ball security, but harder to throw with velocity). If the league hadn't given QB's the right to prepare footballs according to their personal preference, this wouldn't be an issue. The simplest solution going forward is to widen the acceptable range for PSI so that it there is no risk of it interfering with a QB's personal preference. As long as the football is perfectly functional, there is no reason to have arbitrary rules regarding PSI. As long as all QB's are given the same freedom (which has been the case since 2006), nobody can claim to have an unfair advantage.
I think we need to wait and see what the league investigation reveals Â
Right now we are operating on limited information. Can any of us truly say they know the specifics of what is required of each team when it comes to preparing footballs for play? All we know is that there is a specific PSI range, but we don't know who is responsible for measuring PSI and at what time (or times) during the process they are required to make that measurement to ensure that the footballs remain within that range throughout the game.
it would be easier to believe the patriot "unknowingly" exploited Â
- they hadn't been obstinate and caught cheating in the videotaping scandal
- they hadn't just purposely ran deceptive plays (formations) against the Ravens. that's not a penalty, but against the spirit of the rule where the defense can respond to the composition of offensive players on the field.
- they were more forthright in explaining there procedures for preparing game balls
- they weren't called on this by the Ravens, the Ravens having tipped off the Colts.
this is a big deal because their turnovers/attempt numbers are inexplicable (and not due to coaching) and turnovers most closely correlates to wins and losses.
it is very reasonable to believe that this practice has influenced games and playoff seeding over the last eight years.
oh, and I don't hate the Pats.
Why do you believe they unknowingly came up with a process Â
It's certainly not an arbitrary number. It's pretty specific actually. Before you change the rulebook I think it will be worth finding out why PSI is set to where is.
- they hadn't been obstinate and caught cheating in the videotaping scandal
Not sure what you mean by obstinate, but they weren't caught cheating, they were caught in a technical violation which says you can't use videotape to record another team's signals. It's okay to use audiotape to record another team's signals and that is what the Giants do.
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- they hadn't just purposely ran deceptive plays (formations) against the Ravens. that's not a penalty, but against the spirit of the rule where the defense can respond to the composition of offensive players on the field.
Disguising your intentions is part of the game and it is not against the spirit of competition any more than disguising a blitz by dropping a DL into coverage and rushing a DB is against the spirit of competition.
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- they were more forthright in explaining there procedures for preparing game balls
I've yet to see a report from the league that says the Patriots have not been cooperative with their investigation. Kraft has made everyone in the organization available for the investigation and demanded complete transparency of them.
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- they weren't called on this by the Ravens, the Ravens having tipped off the Colts.
Not sure why this point of yours is relevant.
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this is a big deal because their turnovers/attempt numbers are inexplicable (and not due to coaching) and turnovers most closely correlates to wins and losses.
Who says the numbers are inexplicable? Who says they are not due in part to coaching? And if the PSI does have some marginal effect on ball security, why should the Patriots care as long as they followed an acceptable procedure in preparing footballs for play.
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it is very reasonable to believe that this practice has influenced games and playoff seeding over the last eight years.
It's more reasonable to believe that the Patriots success over the last eight years is a result of the same leadership and practices that influenced their success over the previous six years.
- they hadn't been obstinate and caught cheating in the videotaping scandal
they were obstinate in that they were warned and continued to videotape anyway. this demonstrates intent and a history of ignoring rules and warnings.
Not sure what you mean by obstinate, but they weren't caught cheating, they were caught in a technical violation which says you can't use videotape to record another team's signals. It's okay to use audiotape to record another team's signals and that is what the Giants do.
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- they hadn't just purposely ran deceptive plays (formations) against the Ravens. that's not a penalty, but against the spirit of the rule where the defense can respond to the composition of offensive players on the field.
Disguising your intentions is part of the game and it is not against the spirit of competition any more than disguising a blitz by dropping a DL into coverage and rushing a DB is against the spirit of competition.
bad analogy. the rules allow the defense to respond to changes in offensive personnel. BB found a loophole, closed during the game, that let him run several plays without the defense responding.
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- they were more forthright in explaining there procedures for preparing game balls
I've yet to see a report from the league that says the Patriots have not been cooperative with their investigation. Kraft has made everyone in the organization available for the investigation and demanded complete transparency of them.
ok. but they have not been honest (imho) in their press conferences.
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- they weren't called on this by the Ravens, the Ravens having tipped off the Colts.
Not sure why this point of yours is relevant.
this is relevant because it shows other teams think they are bending or breaking the rules.
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this is a big deal because their turnovers/attempt numbers are inexplicable (and not due to coaching) and turnovers most closely correlates to wins and losses.
Who says the numbers are inexplicable? Who says they are not due in part to coaching? And if the PSI does have some marginal effect on ball security, why should the Patriots care as long as they followed an acceptable procedure in preparing footballs for play.
they are outside of the normal distribution of fumbles/attempt, beyond the explanation that it is due to coaching. i'd be more willing to believe it was coaching if it wasn't for their past history.
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it is very reasonable to believe that this practice has influenced games and playoff seeding over the last eight years.
It's more reasonable to believe that the Patriots success over the last eight years is a result of the same leadership and practices that influenced their success over the previous six years.
Nobody let the air out or tampered with the balls after the pre-game inspection. They should be focusing on who has custody of the balls before the inspection. Link - ( New Window )
But the fact that Milton just found an excuse for EVERYTHING that has followed the Patriots speaks volumes of his opinion. He's obviously incredibly biased, for whatever reason. I mean, he sees no fault in anything that they've done over the past several years. Nothing at all in ANY of the instances. Not even a little.
You'd think there would be at least one instance where he was like,, "yeah, that was shady", but, nope! Defends them every single time.
But the fact that Milton just found an excuse for EVERYTHING that has followed the Patriots speaks volumes of his opinion. He's obviously incredibly biased, for whatever reason. I mean, he sees no fault in anything that they've done over the past several years. Nothing at all in ANY of the instances. Not even a little.
You'd think there would be at least one instance where he was like,, "yeah, that was shady", but, nope! Defends them every single time.
Does he have a history of a bias here? Because that would explain a lot. For the life of me I can't understand what he's thinking here.
I'm just going by this thread. He's defended literally everything they've done or been accused of doing. Even the most biased of fans can admit a bit of fault at least SOME of the time, lol. Makes it hard to take his opinion seriously, to be totally honest.
cmon. if you aint cheatin you aint tryin - and these mother fuckers try every way they can to push the envelope to gain an advantage.
I understand that Brady, too, likes his balls rubbed before a game. With so much ball-rubbing going on, doesn't it make sense that, after a certain point, those balls would become somewhat flaccid?
Chris your crusade against this being a big deal is starting to get a little odd.
The are statistics. Nothing is being overanalyzed.
But I get it, haters gonna hate and sore losers gonna look for any excuse they can find.
Arc, that is a very, very simple way of looking at it. So New England has been to 3 Super Bowls, went undefeated once, won the division every year except for the Matt Cassel year where they were 11-5, and while I haven't looked it up, I'm going to guess they've had the best record in football since 2005....
But because the Giants fucked up their world for 8 quarters, somehow deflating footballs for years (IF it's proven to be the case) is inconsequential? Overwhelming ball security numbers that are off the charts and amazing performances in bad conditions... none of this matters anymore because they didn't win in either of the Super Bowls they've been to?
Seems like very little thought was put into that response.
Folks have to chill on this a bit. Don't jump over every half baked analysis that comes out as "proof". These studies re being tossed together quickly. There is also probably a confirmation bias at work here. Data points that minimize the scandal aren't going to get much play right now.
I think there's an insane amount of overreaction to to this entire topic.
They should get fined and lose a couple picks. I don't know what else people want beyond that. To think this was never going on anywhere else before they got caught is naive.
Folks have to chill on this a bit. Don't jump over every half baked analysis that comes out as "proof". These studies re being tossed together quickly. There is also probably a confirmation bias at work here. Data points that minimize the scandal aren't going to get much play right now.
I can't speak for others but that's not the case with me. If anything, the confirmation bias would work against me personally. My enjoyment of football is contingent on the game being played on the level. I don't want the integrity of the game compromised. I don't root for the Pats organization to fail.
For me, I'd be looking for reasons to bury this scandal.... it's not happening.
I think there's an insane amount of overreaction to to this entire topic.
They should get fined and lose a couple picks. I don't know what else people want beyond that. To think this was never going on anywhere else before they got caught is naive.
I think people are sick and tired of Belichick's teams cheating. It's not just the deflated balls. This is the 2nd time his teams have been caught cheating. I don't care if it's deflated balls, taped practices or whatever the next offense is. I think a lot of people, myself included, are tired of the Pats doing things that compromise the game we love.
I'm not looking to discredit the Patriots. I don't give a shit how history looks back on the Patriots. I'm bothered by their cheating and I want a deterrent in place tht will stop them from doing so. That's it.
You break the rules, you pay the price. I just don't think the price should be as hefty as others and I don't think it's that big a deal.
But if all but one of their footballs wasn't inflated enough and yet the other teams were... there was obviously someone letting a little too much air out. Regardless of who it was. The weather excuse doesn't jive. And when you have guys saying they noticed it weeks ago and the Ravens tipping the Colts off, etc.. it has probably been going on a while.
You can't just say "eh, you broke the rules but we'll let it go" otherwise what the hell is the point of having the rule there in the first place? You'd be giving every team a get out of jail free card because they could then say "well, the Pats didn't get penalized.. they got a mulligan"
Seems like very little thought was put into that response.
You mean like practically all your posts?
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I'm bothered by their cheating and I want a deterrent in place tht will stop them from doing so. That's it.
At this point there is absolutely no proof that they are cheating, only that the balls which they prepared turned out to be outside the acceptable range under certain weather conditions during game time. If a team wins a game because an official blows a call, you don't say that the team won because they cheated, you say they won because the officials didn't do their job properly.
Milton. I don't even know how to respond to that. They cheated by deflating the balls. Then they eventually got caught, and that's why we are where we are.
If factors beyond the Patriots control caused all those footballs to fall under the range, why was there 1 ball that didn't? They were all together, were they not?
What "factors" do you think caused this to happen if no one did it intentionally? And spare me the "cold air was the reason" argument. Because the entire set the Colts used stayed inflated within the rules. And even one of the Patriots' did as well.
what are you saying? The patriots knowingly exploited a loophole in the NFL officiating process using deceptive tactics to get an advantage of some kind?
sounds like this is actually worth the time to find out exactly what happened and just how far the Patriots organization will go to push the envelope towards tampering and cheating.
Here's how you respond to it: you say, "Oh I see what you're saying now. You're saying that they did everything by the book according to the guidelines as laid out by the league, but that it resulted in the balls falling outside regulation PSI during game time. You're saying that the league is at fault for creating a flawed system. Now that I understand what you're saying, I agree with you 100%."
p.s.-- You don't have to respond exactly like that, it's just one example of an appropriate response. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
If there is even a small part of you that believes this then that's just... I mean, wow.
- they hadn't been obstinate and caught cheating in the videotaping scandal
- they hadn't just purposely ran deceptive plays (formations) against the Ravens. that's not a penalty, but against the spirit of the rule where the defense can respond to the composition of offensive players on the field.
- they were more forthright in explaining there procedures for preparing game balls
- they weren't called on this by the Ravens, the Ravens having tipped off the Colts.
this is a big deal because their turnovers/attempt numbers are inexplicable (and not due to coaching) and turnovers most closely correlates to wins and losses.
it is very reasonable to believe that this practice has influenced games and playoff seeding over the last eight years.
oh, and I don't hate the Pats.
why do I think that? because of their history of deception and pushing the boundaries. this is just one more example.
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- they hadn't been obstinate and caught cheating in the videotaping scandal
they were obstinate in that they were warned and continued to videotape anyway. this demonstrates intent and a history of ignoring rules and warnings.
Not sure what you mean by obstinate, but they weren't caught cheating, they were caught in a technical violation which says you can't use videotape to record another team's signals. It's okay to use audiotape to record another team's signals and that is what the Giants do.
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- they hadn't just purposely ran deceptive plays (formations) against the Ravens. that's not a penalty, but against the spirit of the rule where the defense can respond to the composition of offensive players on the field.
Disguising your intentions is part of the game and it is not against the spirit of competition any more than disguising a blitz by dropping a DL into coverage and rushing a DB is against the spirit of competition.
bad analogy. the rules allow the defense to respond to changes in offensive personnel. BB found a loophole, closed during the game, that let him run several plays without the defense responding.
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- they were more forthright in explaining there procedures for preparing game balls
I've yet to see a report from the league that says the Patriots have not been cooperative with their investigation. Kraft has made everyone in the organization available for the investigation and demanded complete transparency of them.
ok. but they have not been honest (imho) in their press conferences.
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- they weren't called on this by the Ravens, the Ravens having tipped off the Colts.
Not sure why this point of yours is relevant.
this is relevant because it shows other teams think they are bending or breaking the rules.
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this is a big deal because their turnovers/attempt numbers are inexplicable (and not due to coaching) and turnovers most closely correlates to wins and losses.
Who says the numbers are inexplicable? Who says they are not due in part to coaching? And if the PSI does have some marginal effect on ball security, why should the Patriots care as long as they followed an acceptable procedure in preparing footballs for play.
they are outside of the normal distribution of fumbles/attempt, beyond the explanation that it is due to coaching. i'd be more willing to believe it was coaching if it wasn't for their past history.
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it is very reasonable to believe that this practice has influenced games and playoff seeding over the last eight years.
It's more reasonable to believe that the Patriots success over the last eight years is a result of the same leadership and practices that influenced their success over the previous six years.
nope.
the Ravens considered it cheating and let the Colts know.
the Ravens considered it cheating and let the Colts know.
I thought I heard the Ravens denied this rumor?
Link - ( New Window )
You'd think there would be at least one instance where he was like,, "yeah, that was shady", but, nope! Defends them every single time.
You'd think there would be at least one instance where he was like,, "yeah, that was shady", but, nope! Defends them every single time.
Does he have a history of a bias here? Because that would explain a lot. For the life of me I can't understand what he's thinking here.