NFT: Mets Fans - Curt Schilling Likes the Mets Pitching Staff

is a power pitcher now? Damn Curt must want a job with the Mets.

They are rich beyond belief in the rotation. Maybe that's enough to make them a contender, like the A's with Hudson/Mulder/Zito?

seems like he doesn't realize Mejia is a reliever now.

It is nice for us to step back and smile at those kinds of comments.

I think he just used it as a term to describe them being really good.

Anyway, yeah.. it's just a compliment. I'd take it with a grain of salt. Obviously Mejia isn't in the rotation but he's a good young arm who did pretty well as a closer in his first run at it.

power staff, not rotation. a pitching coach doesn't work with relievers?

Anyway, dissect it all you want. I just meant to share it because he knows more about these guys than I do and it's IMO a nice compliment when one of the games recent greats acknowledges potential greatness in others.

In comment 12109008 Eric on Li said:

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They are rich beyond belief in the rotation. Maybe that's enough to make them a contender, like the A's with Hudson/Mulder/Zito?

Eric I really think you are underrating the As "supporting" players. Giambi, Tejada and Chavez are multi time allstars and Ramon Hernandez was a "star" for his position.

In comment 12109015 pjcas18 said:

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power staff, not rotation. a pitching coach doesn't work with relievers? Anyway, dissect it all you want. I just meant to share it because he knows more about these guys than I do and it's IMO a nice compliment when one of the games recent greats acknowledges potential greatness in others.

Then why no Familia?

Missing the set up man isn't really an egregious error, IMO..

It's just a compliment. No need to get nuts and overanalyze it.

recent Giants teams seem more realistic than those A's teams which we all know were unusually strong with OBP (Moneyball) and quietly had quite a few in their prime stars. They most certainly were full of roid users but that's really besides the point. Giambi and Tejada in particular were MVP caliber players in their prime, and Chavez was quietly pretty great despite his injuries.

Hernandez a forgotten "star" of his era was the 8th best catcher in baseball during his time in Oakland. Tejada certainly cheated (He was suspended right?) but he was a great player in his prime and even Dye for whatever the reason is forgotten regarding how good he was offensively.

not calling Schilling out. The Mets young pitching is probably top 5 in the game. Nationals clearly #1, not sure it's even close or all that debatable but the Mets certainly top 5.

Giambi? Either way doesn't matter much because they never won anything so it's not like it's some magic combination that's worth unlocking. More so just hope that a team can be carried almost entirely by starting pitching (Giants analogy also works, only thing that seemed better about the A's is that they'd previously been a downtrodden franchise with a low payroll).

In comment 12109024 DanMetroMan said:

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recent Giants teams seem more realistic than those A's teams which we all know were unusually strong with OBP (Moneyball) and quietly had quite a few in their prime stars. They most certainly were full of roid users but that's really besides the point. Giambi and Tejada in particular were MVP caliber players in their prime, and Chavez was quietly pretty great despite his injuries.

Agree, the Giants teams are a good comparison.

A's were a very strange team because Beane (as we know) focused on OBP, undervalued guys etc so their offense had guys who weren't "names" but put up numbers. Now we "know" they almost certainly were full of cheaters. I'd be stunned if both Giambi's didn't cheat, Tejada cheated, Ramon Hernandez suspected, Jermaine Dye suspected etc etc but they were a really good offensive squad thanks to the league being slow to adjust to the OBP stuff. The Giants seem like a fair comp. 1 star bat (Posey), some great pitchers (at different times Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner being the best) some solid vets, a strong pen and some weird "out of nowhere" veterans (Vogelsong etc).

Eventually they will be traded for prospects.

1. Nats (Scherzer, Strasburg, Gio, Zimmermann, Roark, Giolito, Fister)

Significant drop


2. Mets

3. Rays, Indians, Dodgers

In comment 12109046 feelflows said:

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Eventually they will be traded for prospects.

Well none are going to be FA for a while so a "while" should be at least 2019. if they somehow let Harvey go (barring injury) the fans will truly revolt, the franchise would be crippled.

They have new owners by then!!!

hope the Mets show some guts and try and extend these guys as soon as possible. They should talk extension with the "big 3" as well as Mejia and Familia right away. Buy out arb years, hope to get a few FA years.

In comment 12109015 pjcas18 said:

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power staff, not rotation. a pitching coach doesn't work with relievers? Anyway, dissect it all you want. I just meant to share it because he knows more about these guys than I do and it's IMO a nice compliment when one of the games recent greats acknowledges potential greatness in others.

I took it the same way as you, in that he was just meaning a powerful staff for one team, not that they were all power pitchers.

because they wont beat the Nats for 1st place

and missed some of our bigger names like Matz, Black, and Familia which only affirms his point further. Oh 2015 season, can you get here soon?

LOL Yeah, but it was just a tweet. The guy wasn't writing an in depth article on the Mets pitching staff.

In comment 12109105 spike said:

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because they wont beat the Nats for 1st place

I'm sure even Alderson would agree with this if hooked up to a lie detector test. The Nationals on paper look incredible.

C- Ramos
2b- Escobar
SS- Desmond (2nd best SS in baseball)
3b- Rendon (budding superstar)
LF- Harper
CF- Span (crazy underrated)
RF-Werth
1b- Zimmerman

Scherzer, Strasburg, Zimmermann, Gonzalez, Fister, Roark

Damn

Should be an interesting season.

In comment 12109113 steve in ky said:

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LOL Yeah, but it was just a tweet. The guy wasn't writing an in depth article on the Mets pitching staff.

Yeah I know. Just saying... he's rattling off names and mentioning how good we are going to be and he's actually "forgetting guys" . Thats a good thing!

can't get past it. Familia is a set up guy, Vic Black is less than that and Matz has made 12 starts above A ball, but it's crazy Schilling didn't go that deep in his compliment of the Mets staff.

LOL. Sure, that's what's crazy.

of right now Black doesn;'t even belong in the discussion. He's a hard thrower who has done absolutely nothing in the majors. 59 major league games 0.1 WAR. He could be something if he walks less hitters but right now he's a non-factor.

what measure has Black been good or worthy of mention? I'd love to hear this one beyond "he throws hard!"

projects him as below replacement level as a matter of fact (-0.1 WAR) Bobby Parnell was as valuable as Vic Black last year... yeah the same Parnell who threw 1 inning.
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but their lineup isn't really that scary(loads of injury and question marks). On paper with everyone they look like the Dodgers did a couple years ago and we all know how thats all worked out for the Dodgers.

offense isn't "scary" but also doesn't have any holes (Escobar may be one if he doesn't bounce back) but they are loaded with average or better and Rendon is a budding star. Werth is likely as valuable or close to as valuable as any Met next year.

Lol. Yes lets all come down on Black. A guy with closer upside who drastically improved his command as the year went on and yes throws 98 with a wicked curveball. Every Met fan on earth who actually watched a baseball game was impressed with Black last year. He is absolutely somebody with enormous upside still that we should all be excited in. He mentioned Syndergaard too. WHERE"S THE PROOF???

In comment 12109118 pjcas18 said:

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can't get past it. Familia is a set up guy, Vic Black is less than that and Matz has made 12 starts above A ball, but it's crazy Schilling didn't go that deep in his compliment of the Mets staff. LOL. Sure, that's what's crazy.

OMG. I wasn't criticizing in any way. I was just saying we have even more then what he mentioned. Geezus.

Nats lost LaRoche and replaced Espinosa with Escobar. Ramos missed half a season. Their position players were 5th in baseball last year. No reason to expect any real regression there. Rendon, Ramos, Harper, Desmond are all sub-30 and Span is 31 coming off a big season.

In comment 12109132 ZGiants98 said:

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Lol. Yes lets all come down on Black. A guy with closer upside who drastically improved his command as the year went on and yes throws 98 with a wicked curveball. Every Met fan on earth who actually watched a baseball game was impressed with Black last year. He is absolutely somebody with enormous upside still that we should all be excited in. He mentioned Syndergaard too. WHERE"S THE PROOF???

Victor Black has been an absolute NOTHING at the MLB level so far. You don't think every team in baseball has a hard throwing reliever who touches mid 90's? He's been a total NOTHING. Give me some proof he hasn't. Proof is in the pudding... 59 games 0.1 WAR... career. 2014, 0.0 WAR. He was as valuable as Erik Goeddel.

fans were impressed with Black? Based on what? He throws hard. That's it. Of course people fall in love with velocity. If a 3.77 FIP from a reliever with 4.9 BB/9 impresses you then you are simply easy to please.

Zimmerman can't stay healthy and really isn't going to put up 1st base numbers though even in a best case scenario. Harper is a head case and gets injured all the time as well. Werth is at the tale end of a great career. The lineup looks solid on paper but we'll see what happens.

2 seasons combined a 3.77 FIP would rank 98th in baseball amongst reliever. 0.0 WAR would rank tied for 110. Sorry boss, not "impressed" beyond "yes he throws hard and maybe he can turn that into something".

In comment 12109139 ZGiants98 said:

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Zimmerman can't stay healthy and really isn't going to put up 1st base numbers though even in a best case scenario. Harper is a head case and gets injured all the time as well. Werth is at the tale end of a great career. The lineup looks solid on paper but we'll see what happens.

This might be the most homerific comment you have EVER made on this site
Why is Werth at the tail end of his career but Cuddyer and Granderson routinely have you going wild? Werth just put up a 4.8 WAR season. He's younger than Cuddyer. Explain this to me?

Yes Black had control issues in the early part of the year but he clearly got better as the year went on. He was put in some serious high leverage situations towards the end of the season and looked incredible. Get your head out of the stat book once in a while. It was his first fucking season. This kid has always had closer upside. He's supposed to have it completely fulfilled in one season??? Nobody is supposed to be excited about Black now? Get the fuck out of here.

In comment 12109143 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12109139 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Zimmerman can't stay healthy and really isn't going to put up 1st base numbers though even in a best case scenario. Harper is a head case and gets injured all the time as well. Werth is at the tale end of a great career. The lineup looks solid on paper but we'll see what happens. This might be the most homerific comment you have EVER made on this site Why is Werth at the tail end of his career but Cuddyer and Granderson routinely have you going wild? Werth just put up a 4.8 WAR season. He's younger than Cuddyer. Explain this to me?

Dude you are such a fucking toolbag. Im saying, LIKE US, they have players with age and injury concerns. They aren't exempt. Nobody is saying they don't look good on paper or Werth isn't good.

10 WAR 357 Games played- Werth, Steamer projects 2.8 WAR, 2014 4.8 WAR


Cuddyer 4.5 WAR 280 games playeed, 1.5 WAR in 2014 Steamer projects 0.9 WAR


Please explain why Werth is at the tail end but you have spent months RAVING about the older Cuddyer and his addition to the Mets lineup.

boss, not letting you off that easy. Why is Werth at the tail end but Cuddyer is going to be a huge addition. Please explain that opinion.

you fucking moron. That's what happens when you are 35/36 and playing MLB.

In comment 12109144 ZGiants98 said:

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Yes Black had control issues in the early part of the year but he clearly got better as the year went on. He was put in some serious high leverage situations towards the end of the season and looked incredible. Get your head out of the stat book once in a while. It was his first fucking season. This kid has always had closer upside. He's supposed to have it completely fulfilled in one season??? Nobody is supposed to be excited about Black now? Get the fuck out of here.

Nope. Vic Black second half 13.1 innings 7 walks 4.05 ERA, Vic Black 1st half 21.1 innings 12 walks 1.69 ERA

In comment 12109157 ZGiants98 said:

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you fucking moron. That's what happens when you are 35/36 and playing MLB.

Wait... you didn't just say Werth was at the tail end as a reason for why the Nats lineup shouldn't be that good? You don't mention Cuddyer as a GREAT addition to the Mets lineup DAILY? It can't go both ways.

heightened. Of course we all know Cuddyer could get injured but your spouting out how their huge middle of the order bat(Werth) is exempt???

In comment 12109161 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12109157 ZGiants98 said: Quote: you fucking moron. That's what happens when you are 35/36 and playing MLB. Wait... you didn't just say Werth was at the tail end as a reason for why the Nats lineup shouldn't be that good? You don't mention Cuddyer as a GREAT addition to the Mets lineup DAILY? It can't go both ways.

Can you please show me where I said the Nats lineup wouldn't be good?? You fucking prick.

you were just casually mentioning Werth is at the end of his career because he's 35? It wasn't a way to imply he's declining/why the Nats shouldn't be that good? Hmmm. Don't buy that one sorry.

In comment 12109162 ZGiants98 said:

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heightened. Of course we all know Cuddyer could get injured but your spouting out how their huge middle of the order bat(Werth) is exempt???

Who said Werth is exempt? Every day this off-season you have RAVED about Cuddyer and how his injuries are not chronic. Werth has had back to back BIG seasons. Any player can have a bad year, why is Cuddyer an exciting addition but Werth is "on the tail end"?

that they have questions like all of us do. On paper I compared them to the 2013 Dodgers. Thats saying they aren't good??

When Lagares first came up I posted that I thought he was one of the better defenders I had seen and thought the Mets just might have found their CF of the future and I was told that his minor league stats showed that he would never be an every day play.

My point it, there is nothing wrong with being enthused about a young player with what you see with your own eyes and sometimes they will surprise.

Lets face it, that's half of the fun of being a diehard fan, watching and being enthused about young talent.

In comment 12109169 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12109162 ZGiants98 said: Quote: heightened. Of course we all know Cuddyer could get injured but your spouting out how their huge middle of the order bat(Werth) is exempt??? Who said Werth is exempt? Every day this off-season you have RAVED about Cuddyer and how his injuries are not chronic. Werth has had back to back BIG seasons. Any player can have a bad year, why is Cuddyer an exciting addition but Werth is "on the tail end"?

Why the fuck has this turned into Cuddyer vs Werth?? Cuddyer is a role player making 5 million bucks next year. Duda is our cleanup hitter we are counting on. You are just a fucking clown trying to start shit. Don't even know why I bother.

for the record, Black was WORSE second half, not "got better". His wOBA against was .274 first half, .306 second half and his second half FIP was 4.41 vs. 3.37 first half. He throws hard, that's cool. But so far he's been a non-factor 100%.

In comment 12109171 steve in ky said:

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When Lagares first came up I posted that I thought he was one of the better defenders I had seen and thought the Mets just might have found their CF of the future and I was told that his minor league stats showed that he would never be an every day play. My point it, there is nothing wrong with being enthused about a young player with what you see with your own eyes and sometimes they will surprise. Lets face it, that's half of the fun of being a diehard fan, watching and being enthused about young talent.

Exactly. And I dare anyone else here to say they weren't impressed with what Black showed. The kid was certainly one of the more promising players that busted on the scene last year.

is making 10.5 million per year. I find it hard to believe you think he signed for 2 years 10 million but I'll ignore that portion rather... why would their salaries matter? If the Nationals can afford to pay werth his salary (clearly they can given the Scherzer signing) why would their salaries matter? If anything isn't Cuddyer a bigger "piece" for the Mets than Werth is for the Nationals?

In comment 12109165 DanMetroMan said:

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you were just casually mentioning Werth is at the end of his career because he's 35? It wasn't a way to imply he's declining/why the Nats shouldn't be that good? Hmmm. Don't buy that one sorry.

Ummm. No dipshit. I wasn't. I said they have question marks. Never once said they wouldn't be good asshole.

In comment 12109171 steve in ky said:

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When Lagares first came up I posted that I thought he was one of the better defenders I had seen and thought the Mets just might have found their CF of the future and I was told that his minor league stats showed that he would never be an every day play. My point it, there is nothing wrong with being enthused about a young player with what you see with your own eyes and sometimes they will surprise. Lets face it, that's half of the fun of being a diehard fan, watching and being enthused about young talent.

Steve,
You have honestly been "impressed" with Vic Black's performance to this point beyond throwing hard? Be honest.

for Black this year.

2015. 12.5 in 2016.

off season you have absolutely RAVED about Cuddyer. Now he's a role player who isn't HUGELY important to the 2015 Mets? This is a shocking change. You have been absolutely over the moon excited about Cuddyer. Not he shows he's at the "tail end" and that's fine?

How many people on BBI that are Mets fans(that have actually watched games) are down on Black? Please raise your hand!

In comment 12109192 ZGiants98 said:

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2015. 12.5 in 2016.

Which is... how much per year? Not really sure why Cuddyer vs. Werth's salary matters here to begin with but okay. The sport has no salary cap. Do we get wins if Werth sucks for more money? You think Werth settles for 2 for 21 on the open market? Not a chance.

In comment 12109193 DanMetroMan said:

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off season you have absolutely RAVED about Cuddyer. Now he's a role player who isn't HUGELY important to the 2015 Mets? This is a shocking change. You have been absolutely over the moon excited about Cuddyer. Not he shows he's at the "tail end" and that's fine?

What the fuck are you even talking about? I never even mentioned Cuddyer in regards to Werth. I said they have some age and injury concerns. Thats it. Have I not said Cuddyer has age and injury concerns? You fucking piece of shit?? Have I?

In comment 12109194 ZGiants98 said:

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How many people on BBI that are Mets fans(that have actually watched games) are down on Black? Please raise your hand!

So throw out every single stat? Cool. He was better second half based on what? Not FIP, not wOBA, didn't walk less, what should I be looking at? Throwing hard?

jackass.

all honesty if you are impressed with players whose stats suck then maybe you aren't really a good judge of players? Why would every stat agree Black hasn't been very good? What stat am I missing?

if you support Dan in that Black sucks and nobody should be excited about his potential please back your boy up. He's fragile. Help him out!

claimed Black started slow and was better after that. Which stats back this up? Why so angry. Please point me in that direction. That's all I'm asking.

In comment 12109205 ZGiants98 said:

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if you support Dan in that Black sucks and nobody should be excited about his potential please back your boy up. He's fragile. Help him out!

Nope. Didn't even come close to saying "Black sucks" nice try though.

In comment 12109119 DanMetroMan said:

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of right now Black doesn;'t even belong in the discussion. He's a hard thrower who has done absolutely nothing in the majors. 59 major league games 0.1 WAR. He could be something if he walks less hitters but right now he's a non-factor.

This is factual. Not "Black sucks".

We all watched Black.

In comment 12109207 DanMetroMan said:

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claimed Black started slow and was better after that. Which stats back this up? Why so angry. Please point me in that direction. That's all I'm asking.

He was put into higher leverage situations. Got us out of a number of jams.

Vic Black doesn't walk less hitters he won't last 2015 on the Mets roster. This is a fact my friend. Not an opinion. A fact. He won't hold onto his 40 man spot. Remember Gonzalez Germen? He's on team #4 this off-season.

In comment 12109211 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12109119 DanMetroMan said: Quote: of right now Black doesn;'t even belong in the discussion. He's a hard thrower who has done absolutely nothing in the majors. 59 major league games 0.1 WAR. He could be something if he walks less hitters but right now he's a non-factor. This is factual. Not "Black sucks".

You didn't just say he is a NOTHING??? lol.

if he doesn't walk less hitters he's an absolute non-factor and will play for 4-5 teams and be off and on in AAA. Proof is in the pudding. His numbers say so far in his career he's replacement level. 108th in FIP in 2014

In comment 12109220 DanMetroMan said:

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Vic Black doesn't walk less hitters he won't last 2015 on the Mets roster. This is a fact my friend. Not an opinion. A fact. He won't hold onto his 40 man spot. Remember Gonzalez Germen? He's on team #4 this off-season.

Seriously. Go fuck yourself. It was his first full season. We were all encouraged by what we saw and we all expect improvement. This guy has been a legit prospect for years thought to have closer upside. He absolutely improved as the year went on. we all saw it, whether the numbers back that up or not.

In comment 12109234 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 12109220 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Vic Black doesn't walk less hitters he won't last 2015 on the Mets roster. This is a fact my friend. Not an opinion. A fact. He won't hold onto his 40 man spot. Remember Gonzalez Germen? He's on team #4 this off-season. Seriously. Go fuck yourself. It was his first full season. We were all encouraged by what we saw and we all expect improvement. This guy has been a legit prospect for years thought to have closer upside. He absolutely improved as the year went on. we all saw it, whether the numbers back that up or not.

He was not impressive. He threw hard. His numbers were not impressive in any way. He improved? Why don't the numbers show this? Strange.

to clarify. If Vic Black is 100% "as good" (no better or worse) as he was second half in 2014 then you think he's a key piece of the Mets pen for the next 5-6 years? or more of a mop up "extra" arm?

He was so bad in spring training he couldn't even make the team. The guy couldn't find the strike zone in the beginning of the year. He came up and was used like the last man in the pen in mop up situations. By the end of the year he was the bonafide 7th man. he absolutely improved as the year went on. And I don't give two shit if the stats don't back that up.

But Z, you are overlooking an obviouse answer with Black...

would you sign for Mejia, Familia, Parnell and Black to be "Black second half 2014" good this season? Would the Mets be a winning squad if that's the case?

In comment 12109241 ZGiants98 said:

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He was so bad in spring training he couldn't even make the team. The guy couldn't find the strike zone in the beginning of the year. He came up and was used like the last man in the pen in mop up situations. By the end of the year he was the bonafide 7th man. he absolutely improved as the year went on. And I don't give two shit if the stats don't back that up.

Guess that ends that.

really clear why Black's horrendous start to the year would make his second half numbers worse than his first half but okay. I guess I give up.

shit about his stats other than you anyway. This was a huge prospect with closer upside that broke in and improved as a reliever at the ML level in his first full season. We are supposed to not like this guy? lol.

In comment 12109248 ZGiants98 said:

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shit about his stats other than you anyway. This was a huge prospect with closer upside that broke in and improved as a reliever at the ML level in his first full season. We are supposed to not like this guy? lol.

Being "impressed" despite the numbers doesn't make sense to me. Either you find a way to succeed or you don't. If you want to be impressed with velocity that is you prerogative. At the end of the day David Wright is a great player because of the numbers he puts up. Not that he's a nice guy, or fun to watch or works hard. He makes his money because of his numbers.

In comment 12109246 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 12109241 ZGiants98 said: Quote: He was so bad in spring training he couldn't even make the team. The guy couldn't find the strike zone in the beginning of the year. He came up and was used like the last man in the pen in mop up situations. By the end of the year he was the bonafide 7th man. he absolutely improved as the year went on. And I don't give two shit if the stats don't back that up. Guess that ends that.

Who the fuck said he had an amazing statistical season? Once again. Dan's in his own world. Only Dan can live like Dan in Dan's kingdom!! DAN"S WORLD FOR LIFE!!

In comment 12109242 Shecky said:

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But Z, you are overlooking an obviouse answer with Black...

Help me out?

In comment 12109248 ZGiants98 said:

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shit about his stats other than you anyway. This was a huge prospect with closer upside that broke in and improved as a reliever at the ML level in his first full season. We are supposed to not like this guy? lol.

Huge prospect? Peaking at #15 in the Pirate system in 2015? He was a first round pick in 2009 and was AWFUL until 2012 in the minors. When was this "huge prospect" stuff? Please show me.

career minor league numbers

(Sickels had him unranked before 2012, #15 after 2012 in the Pirates system) please show me the year he was a "huge prospect". Thanks in advance.
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In comment 12109231 DanMetroMan said:

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if he doesn't walk less hitters he's an absolute non-factor and will play for 4-5 teams and be off and on in AAA. Proof is in the pudding. His numbers say so far in his career he's replacement level. 108th in FIP in 2014

So far in his career?? Lol. What a jackass. It was his first season. I guess Syndergaard is done. His AAA wasn't amazing elite level last year. Cut him. Cut Flores too. His overall season last year rates him 27th best SS in baseball. Proof is in the pudding!! Cut TDA too. His first half was sooooooo bad. Cut him.

In comment 12109260 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 12109242 Shecky said: Quote: But Z, you are overlooking an obviouse answer with Black... Help me out?

Problem is, you have to admit he tailed off in the second half.

in the NYPENN 7 starts 3.45 era 1.31 whip, then 2010 TJ, 2011 5.05 era in 27 games out of the pen, 2012 excellent season out of the pen (Sickels ranked him #15), traded to the Mets.

in the Bucs system for years and was borderline a top 10 in ours last year as well.

In comment 12109268 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 12109231 DanMetroMan said: Quote: if he doesn't walk less hitters he's an absolute non-factor and will play for 4-5 teams and be off and on in AAA. Proof is in the pudding. His numbers say so far in his career he's replacement level. 108th in FIP in 2014 So far in his career?? Lol. What a jackass. It was his first season. I guess Syndergaard is done. His AAA wasn't amazing elite level last year. Cut him. Cut Flores too. His overall season last year rates him 27th best SS in baseball. Proof is in the pudding!! Cut TDA too. His first half was sooooooo bad. Cut him.

If Syndergaard puts up identical numbers through 59 appearances then yes, the statement will be "he needs to walk less or he's nothing special". I don't care what his name is, so far Vic Black through 59 career games is a non-factor. That's what I've said from moment 1, not that he has no chance to ever be one. If Syndergaard throws really really hard but walks 4.4/9 his first 59 appearances, striking out a "solid" 8.3/9 people will absolutely question how good he is.

.

In comment 12109269 Shecky said:

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In comment 12109260 ZGiants98 said: Quote: In comment 12109242 Shecky said: Quote: But Z, you are overlooking an obviouse answer with Black... Help me out? Problem is, you have to admit he tailed off in the second half.

He may have tailed off from being tired at the very end but there is nothing to say what he showed last year wasn't something we should all be encouraged by. He came a long way from April 1st last year to where he was when the season ended.

In comment 12109278 ZGiants98 said:

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in the Bucs system for years and was borderline a top 10 in ours last year as well.

I will give you one chance to amend this statement. Are you sticking with this?

In comment 12109289 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12109278 ZGiants98 said: Quote: in the Bucs system for years and was borderline a top 10 in ours last year as well. I will give you one chance to amend this statement. Are you sticking with this?

Honestly not looking at Pirates top 10s for the rest of the night. Maybe top 15. I really don't care. He was 15 last year on this list.
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(Supplemental first)



Baseball America

2009

1. Pedro Alvarez, 3b
2. Andrew McCutchen, of
3. Jose Tabata, of
4. Brad Lincoln, rhp
5. Bryan Morris, rhp
6. Neil Walker, 3b
7. Jeff Sues, rhp
8. Shelby Ford, 2b
9. Daniel McCutchen, rhp
10. Robbie Grossman, of


2010-

1. Pedro Alvarez, 3b
2. Jose Tabata, of
3. Tony Sanchez, c
4. Brad Lincoln, rhp
5. Chase D'Arnaud, ss/2b
6. Starling Marte, of
7. Tim Alderson, rhp
8. Zack Von Rosenberg, rhp
9. Rudy Owens, lhp
10. Gorkys Hernandez, of


2011


1. Jameson Taillon, rhp
2. Tony Sanchez, c
3. Stetson Allie, rhp
4. Starling Marte, of
5. Luis Heredia, rhp
6. Bryan Morris, rhp
7. Rudy Owens, lhp
8. Jeff Locke, lhp
9. Zack Von Rosenberg, rhp
10. Chase d'Arnaud, ss/2b

1. Gerrit Cole, rhp
2. Jameson Taillon, rhp
3. Josh Bell, of
4. Starling Marte, of
5. Luis Heredia, rhp
6. Kyle McPherson, rhp
7. Tony Sanchez, c
8. Robbie Grossman, of
9. Stetson Allie, rhp
10. Jeff Locke, lhp

you admit you threw out a lie. Cool.

Vic Black was NEVER in the Bucs top 10, let alone for "years" but you want to throw that out there. Seems fair.

could turn a corner this year. If Black doesn't improve he will see the AAA/MLB shuttle and be replaced by someone better. He has a live arm, but to me someone who impresses isn't a guy who needs to improve further to remain a multi-year piece. Juan Lagares can stagnate or even regress, deGrom the same, Black must IMPROVE or he's not anything worth discussing beyond "he throws hard" which I guess is more fun to watch than Dice-K.

.

In comment 12109305 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

could turn a corner this year. If Black doesn't improve he will see the AAA/MLB shuttle and be replaced by someone better. He has a live arm, but to me someone who impresses isn't a guy who needs to improve further to remain a multi-year piece. Juan Lagares can stagnate or even regress, deGrom the same, Black must IMPROVE or he's not anything worth discussing beyond "he throws hard" which I guess is more fun to watch than Dice-K.

No shit sherlock.

young players with loads of potential in rookie seasons who show some good things but haven't come close to reaching their potential should improve going into year two or they may not make it long term.

Simply brilliant. I feel moved.

Have you been drinking?

be good or not. That's the funny part. He certainly has a ton pf potential and from what he showed last year Im pretty excited about what "could" happen with him. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he went the other way either. As of right now I absolutely consider him as part of that young and talented crop on the rise however.

In comment 12109322 Gary from The East End said:

Quote:

Have you been drinking?

No Gary. Apologies.

top 10 prospects who will be lights out closers.

All Im saying is he had recognition before he was traded to the Mets. Could care less if it was top 10 or 15.
Link - ( New Window )

at the time of the trade. Sickels had him 16.

Night.

point go so easily. Our big time, top 10 RH bat instantly got relegated to a cheap role player thanks to an off hand comment about Werth - that was the headshot.

My 2 cents, I actually like Black and think he has ability, but he hasn't proven anything yet. It's worth having as many guys who throw hard like Black as possible, but to some degree they are dime/dozen. They could cut him like Gonzalez after ST or he could be the next Henry Owens or he could be the next Heath Bell. His talent is certainly worth a shot but he's not an immensely valuable piece either.

Bell one of the nicest Mets I've ever met by the way.

In comment 12109346 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

point go so easily. Our big time, top 10 RH bat instantly got relegated to a cheap role player thanks to an off hand comment about Werth - that was the headshot. My 2 cents, I actually like Black and think he has ability, but he hasn't proven anything yet. It's worth having as many guys who throw hard like Black as possible, but to some degree they are dime/dozen. They could cut him like Gonzalez after ST or he could be the next Henry Owens or he could be the next Heath Bell. His talent is certainly worth a shot but he's not an immensely valuable piece either.

Dude your quietly becoming pretty hilarious yourself. Chiming in on anyone that opposes anything against me because of your Flores hate. The funny thing is, you were the fist person I figured would back Dan in the Black sucks rant. The question was never Cuddyer vs Werth. Or anything close to it. Dan's pointing out that Werth is the Nats big bat. He's getting up there and the Nats have injury concerns just like we do.(and yes that includes Cuddyer) Cuddyer is one of about 4-5 good bats we have in the middle of the order. He's a temporary bandaid that will be gone in a year or two. He's not our cleanup hitter that we are depending on to take us to the World Series this year.

and lost a ton of weight one year right?

Nats, Werth, Cuddyer. Not a single argument, side, or shred of anything was even discussed here. Just a bunch of attempts to start something about nothing. If somebody would like to define something here be my guest.

Black had a horrid 2015 and he should be cut vs Black showed plenty of potential and yes improved as the year went on(going from AAA to the 7th inning role is IMPROVEMENT)

Got it.

on this one you even seem to agree you made a few statements that were a little overly optimistic (or possibly just poor word choices). It's not a big deal.

As far as me commenting against you because I don't like Flores...I won't buy into that until you get Oliver Stone to commit to the project. If you want a reason as to why our opinions have been at odds it's pretty simple, I don't think the Mets did as much as they should have to improve this offseason and you think they did. No need to overcomplicate. And I like Wilmer Flores' bat just fine. I even like his glove enough at 2nd or 3rd. Just not willing to buy the Mets BS that they now believe in him for any reason other than not having the $ to sign someone better.

In comment 12109352 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

and lost a ton of weight one year right?

Yeah. All from rollerblading, the writers thought he was kidding

In comment 12109359 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

on this one you even seem to agree you made a few statements that were a little overly optimistic (or possibly just poor word choices). It's not a big deal. As far as me commenting against you because I don't like Flores...I won't buy into that until you get Oliver Stone to commit to the project. If you want a reason as to why our opinions have been at odds it's pretty simple, I don't think the Mets did as much as they should have to improve this offseason and you think they did. No need to overcomplicate. And I like Wilmer Flores' bat just fine. I even like his glove enough at 2nd or 3rd. Just not willing to buy the Mets BS that they now believe in him for any reason other than not having the $ to sign someone better.

Please dude. Any person that opposes anything whatsoever you are high fiving lately. Its all good but its pretty transparent also.

I'm done tonight. I miss the days of debating about substance. Don't even know what the hell tonight was. A big waste of time arguing over vanilla bullshit.

Cuddyer staying healthy & being as productive as he was in COL is a big risk (you don't agree)
They shouldn't have completely ignored the bullpen (you don't agree)
There are players out there they could have pursued, especially since they gave up their pick, but didn't (you don't agree)
Their defense sucks (you don't agree)
They clearly have money issues and it's an abomination that the payroll isn't rising with increased ticket sales (don't recall your thoughts on that matter)

I mean, there's really nothing more to it than that. Find 1 post I made "against you" that wasn't in support of one of those arguments and I'll tell you I'm wrong.

In comment 12109380 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

Cuddyer staying healthy & being as productive as he was in COL is a big risk (you don't agree) They shouldn't have completely ignored the bullpen (you don't agree) There are players out there they could have pursued, especially since they gave up their pick, but didn't (you don't agree) Their defense sucks (you don't agree) They clearly have money issues and it's an abomination that the payroll isn't rising with increased ticket sales (don't recall your thoughts on that matter) I mean, there's really nothing more to it than that. Find 1 post I made "against you" that wasn't in support of one of those arguments and I'll tell you I'm wrong.

Please dude. We were talking about Vic Black?

As to your other points. Your starting to sound like Dan.

1.) I absolutely believe Cuddyer's age and health concerns are a risk. That's why we got him at the price we did. Being as productive as he was in Colorado?? lol. Absolutely not. In fact I just recently said I'd be thrilled with his road numbers only moving to Citified(.800 ops)
2.) Never said this either. Thought Miller was a unnecessary allocation of resources for a guy that doesn't have much experience closing or a track record of being anything more than a LOOGY past 2 seasons. I actually was pretty big on signing a beslow or somebody as another lefty. Think overall our pen is pretty good though, yes, with a ton of upside and more arms in AAA.
3.) Depends on who you are talking about. Hanley again??
4.) Their defense sucks? Overall? Yeah I disagree. Its not all bad. We clearly would be sacrificing some defense up the middle this year for offense which I am fine with at this point depending on what Flores does.
5.) Who are they going out and signing to quench your must be up 20 percent logic this late in the game?? The payroll is up 10 million anyway. Not really following this. if they traded for Desmond, they could take on his 7 million, right? We aren't up against a wall and we have a ton of flexibility with Colon and Murphy possibly being trade deadline targets later on as well. Could care less about the payroll at this point. The 25 roster is close to set in my opinion and I'm pretty happy with it. It will evolve further as the season unfolds.

But there are lots of hard throwers that never do anything.

I'm a big prospect guy. Been following prospects/minors more than the majors for years and I couldn't resist this conversation. :)

Vic Black was never, to my knowledge, a top 10 system prospect kind of guy, unless you have a really thin system.

That Rosenbaum article about future top 10 closer prospects from BR is the same thing as saying these are future, maybe sort of possible, 5 star players, if everything clicks. A lot of those guys are bums.

He did some nice things, has a lot to work on, but he was never a huge prospect of any sort. You're not going to find too many minor league pitchers who are future relievers, with a 1.3 whip and half as many walks as Ks as top prospects, unless their stuff is INSANE - Aaron Sanchez, Alex Meyer, those sorts of guys.

Of course, there is more than stats and scouting reports, but I think the point being made is fairly clear.

isn't encouraging, But a 2.6 era and a .206 baa are good stats, and the fact that he had no blown saves with his holds is also pretty good. I'll take those numbers in a middle reliever. I'm not excited that he's on our team, but I do think he's an asset in middle relief.

At times, he looked very good. Anyone watching had to start thinking "he might be a decent pen piece for us". Then his "neck" acted up. Which could explain why he tired or wore down at the end of the season.

Future closer unlikely? Unlikely. Out of baseball in two years, possibly. Talented and valuable pen piece, hopefully. I think Z and DMM were both rights in parts of their arguments.

In comment 12109442 Shecky said:

Quote:

At times, he looked very good. Anyone watching had to start thinking "he might be a decent pen piece for us". Then his "neck" acted up. Which could explain why he tired or wore down at the end of the season. Future closer unlikely? Unlikely. Out of baseball in two years, possibly. Talented and valuable pen piece, hopefully. I think Z and DMM were both rights in parts of their arguments.

Just to clarify, he likely won't be "out of baseball" barring injury but a AAAA/MLB shuttle without improvement is absolutely his future. He'll be a guy who you hear gets a ST invite from teams annually on minor league deals. Familia and Mejia impressed, deGrom obviously... Black is at an age where it's shit or get off the pot in 2015 (27 in May). Could go either way.

My point was his 2014 wasn't impressive in any way. If he has identical numbers in 2015 he won't be in the Mets opening day pen in 2016 unless it's as the "last guy" or something of that nature. I realize people get tired of "numbers" but that's really how you have to judge a players track record. The Byrd trade was a great one even if Black flames out but if he doesn't take a step forward that will be 100% because of Herrera.

step forward will need either significantly more missed bats and/or far less walks. Second one is probably more reasonable/realistic.

I forgot about the neck. Seriously, the first Met fan on any site or forum that was actually "down" on Black's 2014 season. That was a first. Was his overall stat line amazing?? No. But anyone with a pair of eyes was impressed with what Black showed at times and has every right to be encouraged heading into 2015.

I wasn't impressed and I have a set of eyes. Sorry.

Anyway moving on-

Syndergaard top 5 overall pitching prospect in baseball per Mayo, Herrera rumored to come in at #9 amongst 2b, shockingly low if accurate.

not even sure Vic Black is on the opening day roster if others out pitch him specifically Mazzoni whom they have been hyping up for 2 years now. Mazzoni can't stay healthy but he's a wildcard. Not really sure how Goeddel is still on the 40 man but I guess that means he's a possibility as well.

He was originally used as a starter and it didn't work out. He didn't start getting recognized nationally until only a couple years ago when he was converted to a reliever. Top 10. Top 15. He was a legit prospect when he was acquired.

lets take the "fighting" back a step. If you asked Sandy about Black and said choose one

a) He was as good as we had hoped in 2014 given his 2013
b) He wasn't as good as we hoped in 2014
c) He was better than expected

You truly in your heart don't think he chooses b?

can not get here soon enough

Dan way possible.... Black is a 100 percent lock out of spring training.

In comment 12109477 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

He was originally used as a starter and it didn't work out. He didn't start getting recognized nationally until only a couple years ago when he was converted to a reliever. Top 10. Top 15. He was a legit prospect when he was acquired.

Originally used as a starter... he made 7 starts in 2009 (wasn't ranked in the Pirates top 10) made 2 more in 2010 and blew out his arm. He has never been a top prospect. I'm not trying to be a dick here, he just hasn't been at any point.

In comment 12109478 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

lets take the "fighting" back a step. If you asked Sandy about Black and said choose one a) He was as good as we had hoped in 2014 given his 2013 b) He wasn't as good as we hoped in 2014 c) He was better than expected You truly in your heart don't think he chooses b?

Yes. I feel he would choose A. The kid had a bunch of control problems at the end of 2013 as well as early 2015. He rebounded in AAA and came back and pitched well(even outstanding for stretches). I think you have to be pleased with what he showed in his first full season.

In comment 12109480 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Dan way possible.... Black is a 100 percent lock out of spring training.

Whereas last season he was sent to AAA this season that can't happen when you yourself say this year they are playoff contenders? How does that compute? You are telling me if he has a poor spring someone like Carlyle can't beat him out?

In comment 12109481 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 12109477 ZGiants98 said: Quote: He was originally used as a starter and it didn't work out. He didn't start getting recognized nationally until only a couple years ago when he was converted to a reliever. Top 10. Top 15. He was a legit prospect when he was acquired. Originally used as a starter... he made 7 starts in 2009 (wasn't ranked in the Pirates top 10) made 2 more in 2010 and blew out his arm. He has never been a top prospect. I'm not trying to be a dick here, he just hasn't been at any point.

Well I just posted an article that ranked the top ten future closers from a little over a year ago. You yourself orgasmed a few times when he was named as the other player in the Byrd trade.

In comment 12109484 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

In comment 12109478 DanMetroMan said: Quote: lets take the "fighting" back a step. If you asked Sandy about Black and said choose one a) He was as good as we had hoped in 2014 given his 2013 b) He wasn't as good as we hoped in 2014 c) He was better than expected You truly in your heart don't think he chooses b? Yes. I feel he would choose A. The kid had a bunch of control problems at the end of 2013 as well as early 2015. He rebounded in AAA and came back and pitched well(even outstanding for stretches). I think you have to be pleased with what he showed in his first full season.

I'm sorry but the Mets would not be pleased with a replacement level reliever walking 5/9 innings. That's not a guy you can stick in there in a big spot. They surely need/want improvement whereas they would sign for 10 years of Familia/Mejia.

In comment 12109490 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

In comment 12109481 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 12109477 ZGiants98 said: Quote: He was originally used as a starter and it didn't work out. He didn't start getting recognized nationally until only a couple years ago when he was converted to a reliever. Top 10. Top 15. He was a legit prospect when he was acquired. Originally used as a starter... he made 7 starts in 2009 (wasn't ranked in the Pirates top 10) made 2 more in 2010 and blew out his arm. He has never been a top prospect. I'm not trying to be a dick here, he just hasn't been at any point. Well I just posted an article that ranked the top ten future closers from a little over a year ago. You yourself orgasmed a few times when he was named as the other player in the Byrd trade.

I absolutely liked Black and Herrera for a 37 year old Marlon Byrd who was a pending FA. What does that have to do with anything? I would have been happy with just Black. Something is always better than nothing. He's a live arm who hasn't been very good YET. He's 27 this year. This is his shot.

In comment 12109486 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 12109480 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Dan way possible.... Black is a 100 percent lock out of spring training. Whereas last season he was sent to AAA this season that can't happen when you yourself say this year they are playoff contenders? How does that compute? You are telling me if he has a poor spring someone like Carlyle can't beat him out?

Never said we were playoff contenders chief. Mid 80s with a chance at a wild card yes but that doesn't make us a guaranteed playoff candidate

The whole world was impressed with Black. Like you said, moving along.

makes them playoff contenders. If they win 84-85 games they absolutely were playoff contenders in a league where WC2 has won 88.5 games on average. I think almost everyone would sign for 84-85 games and say they contended for the playoffs.

he has a spot going in, but it certainly not etched in stone that it is his if he struggles

In comment 12109494 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

The whole world was impressed with Black. Like you said, moving along.

wow. So the whole world ignores stats? I find that hard to believe. If the Mets included Vic Black with Gee for a better return there would be 0.00% uproar.

Absolutely. But he's earned a spot after what he showed in 2014 and that's my point.

Fans can call a season where you were barely above 500 a success and "contending". Personally, I despise that.

Goal should be to win 95 games and a world series. Fall short due to bad luck and circumstances, the wild card still gives you a chance.

Posting sound bites and articles once the season starts. Not a sole alive is down on Black.

In comment 12109496 Headhunter said:

Quote:

he has a spot going in, but it certainly not etched in stone that it is his if he struggles

HH,
That's all I meant. Familia, Mejia, Torres, Edgin are absolute locks but if you told me someone else stole Black's spot I wouldn't be shocked at all. I hope they don't do it but some rumblings they may work Montero out of the pen, someone like Montero or Mazzoni could steal a spot or even Carlyle. Carlyle is ancient but I actually thought he was pretty good last year.

In comment 12109500 Shecky said:

Quote:

Fans can call a season where you were barely above 500 a success and "contending". Personally, I despise that. Goal should be to win 95 games and a world series. Fall short due to bad luck and circumstances, the wild card still gives you a chance.

I don't think anybody expects the mets to be "contenders" (though with the Royals anything is possible) but playoff contenders is very realistic/possible. On paper there are probably 3-4 teams "likely" to win 90 or more (or good bets) and a bunch of teams who could win 75-85 depending on a bunch of things. I agree the goal should be a WS contender/

this thread, if ZGiants doesn't see them as real WS contenders this year I doubt anybody on here does but I think most people think if they have the right breaks, stay healthy etc they can finish over .500 which means going into Sept. with a hot finish giving them a shot.

you better do what you need to do to keep your job.

really like Mazzoni. I hope he finds a way to stay healthy. I'm usually against it but I think it's close to time to move him to the pen. He's oft injured, he's not a big guy and everyone seems to agree his stuff isn't as good later in games. Seems like the perfect pen candidate. Sucks that Walters got hurt, he'd be in the mix too at this point.

don't know where this guy is seeing it but apparently Herrera is #9 at 2b (I think this is crazy if accurate), Nimmo and Conforto at #9 and #10 in OF (Not sure if that's just corner). He didn't post any links so this might be wrong.

seriously, I'll take baby steps. and I hate this cliche Wilpon used, but I'll take it. Meaningful September baseball and I don't mean by meaningful hoping they lose enough games so the draft pick is protected.

And to be honest, that is my expectation for this year. Meaningful September baseball.

In comment 12109517 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

seriously, I'll take baby steps. and I hate this cliche Wilpon used, but I'll take it. Meaningful September baseball and I don't mean by meaningful hoping they lose enough games so the draft pick is protected. And to be honest, that is my expectation for this year. Meaningful September baseball.

If we are talking about draft pick protection again this year then Sandy and staff must be shown the door. I'm serious about that. No excuses. If we are "in the mix" for bottom 10 team AGAIN this year they failed at their jobs. I don't expect that but you shouldn't keep your job if that's the case. No excuses, no "Wright missed 60 games" or Harvey wasn't full strength. Either you are .500 or better or you should be gone.

In comment 12109513 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

don't know where this guy is seeing it but apparently Herrera is #9 at 2b (I think this is crazy if accurate), Nimmo and Conforto at #9 and #10 in OF (Not sure if that's just corner). He didn't post any links so this might be wrong.

Crazy - Herrera - too high on the list (high being good) or too low (low being bad) for Herrera?

think Herrera is EASILY a top 5 2b prospect in baseball. I'll have to see the names they have ahead of him (assuming this is accurate) but I can't come up with 8 better 2b prospects. No way. MLB.com has strange lists to begin with. They refuse to put a guy like Gallo or Franco on their 1b list despite their teams making clear that's their eventual position yet Herrera has a big year with scouts digging him and he's #9? Strange. No issue with Nimmo/Conforto where they are. I think Herrera and Kolten Wong are very similar and I suspect Wong will be an all-star soon enough.

...in September"

Let's hope this turns out a bit better over the next few seasons.

Peterson another guy they refused to rank at 1b but 1) The Mariners openly say he's likely headed there 2) Seager is locked up long term at 3b. Peter O'Brien similar situation in Arizona, though Arizona doesn't have a catcher. Would be great if TDA breaks out, Plawecki has a big year and the mets can hold someone hostage for one of their catchers.

In comment 12109531 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

...in September" Let's hope this turns out a bit better over the next few seasons.

Gotta have "meaningful" games for me to accept this FO coming back. No more "well Harvey looked good and Wheeler was better, sucks we won 79 games again". Time for a step forward or a step in another direction.

It's put up or shut up time. If this team isn't in the mix for a WC spot at the end of September, I'm sorry, but they've failed.

If they just miss it by a game or two, I can swallow that. But another sub-80 win year and "well, we saw the young kids come up and contribute" isn't doing it for me anymore. That was 2013 and 2014. 2015 needs to be about winning baseball games. Otherwise this is a failure. A rebuild shouldn't take over 7 years.

In comment 12109536 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

It's put up or shut up time. If this team isn't in the mix for a WC spot at the end of September, I'm sorry, but they've failed. If they just miss it by a game or two, I can swallow that. But another sub-80 win year and "well, we saw the young kids come up and contribute" isn't doing it for me anymore. That was 2013 and 2014. 2015 needs to be about winning baseball games. Otherwise this is a failure. A rebuild shouldn't take over 7 years.

I'm obviously very hard on them but if they win at least 82 games I can except it. Anything less than that and goodbye Sandy for me. Enough already. I don't want to hear "yeah we won 79 again but Amed Rosario might join us second half 2016!!!" or "yeah well on 8/1 we were only 6 out of the WC but had a bad series with the Pirates" etc. Time to win more games.

I can see it now. "Well we were 3 games over .500 on July 29th but a couple guys missed games and we fell out of it! Conforto has such a promising future though!!!"

to make ultimatums that this better be the year. If they lose 120 gAmes I'll still be watching and going. Having said that, I'm excited for what season can be the start of

In comment 12109530 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

think Herrera is EASILY a top 5 2b prospect in baseball. I'll have to see the names they have ahead of him (assuming this is accurate) but I can't come up with 8 better 2b prospects. No way. MLB.com has strange lists to begin with. They refuse to put a guy like Gallo or Franco on their 1b list despite their teams making clear that's their eventual position yet Herrera has a big year with scouts digging him and he's #9? Strange. No issue with Nimmo/Conforto where they are. I think Herrera and Kolten Wong are very similar and I suspect Wong will be an all-star soon enough.

I agree, I feel like Herrera should be higher. How many 20-year old 2B OPS .850 between A+ and AA.

I was expecting him to be top 3 or 4.

Herrera's time in AA was ridiculous. and it's not like Binghamtom is Vegas.

those numbers extrapolated out over a full season and he's the next Robbie Cano.

Last year was supposed to be WC contenders. This year World Series. Harvey got hurt ruined 2014. So why are we content with 82 wins this year or else I hand in the fan card?

In comment 12109553 Shecky said:

Quote:

Last year was supposed to be WC contenders. This year World Series. Harvey got hurt ruined 2014. So why are we content with 82 wins this year or else I hand in the fan card?

I'm not sure there's any "we" here. Every fan has their own expectations, their own "requirements" of the team, and their own thought process about what constitutes success, failure and degrees of acceptable performance.

In comment 12109553 Shecky said:

Quote:

Last year was supposed to be WC contenders. This year World Series. Harvey got hurt ruined 2014. So why are we content with 82 wins this year or else I hand in the fan card?

Shecky,
I don't think anybody is saying higher expectations are a bad thing. I'm saying for me personally at MINIMUM they better be over .500 or I want the FO and Collins to be fired. That's my absolute minimum with ZERO excuses. If God forbid Harvey throws 10 innings this year I still expect over .500 or toss everyone out the door.

In comment 12109545 Headhunter said:

Quote:

to make ultimatums that this better be the year. If they lose 120 gAmes I'll still be watching and going. Having said that, I'm excited for what season can be the start of

HH,
I don't think anybody is suggesting to stop being a fan but I suspect if the Mets go 70-92 you won't be very positive regarding the direction/leadership of the team. They took over in 2011, this is the 2015 season aka year 5. Time to show something in terms of wins and losses.

For them not to be good this year barring an injury epidemic. I guess some key guys like Duda or deGrom turning into pumpkins would be a huge blow.

In comment 12109611 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

For them not to be good this year barring an injury epidemic. I guess some key guys like Duda or deGrom turning into pumpkins would be a huge blow.

I believe even you the most optimistic Mets fan on here would agree if they finish under .500 that they didn't get the job done (meaning the FO and the talent). It should not take 6-7 years for a team to go from bad to solid. They had 11-12-13-14, let's see results.

Dan in that regard and I've said it before. I expect the Mets to be above .500 and competing for a wild card this year. It's time.

In comment 12109623 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Dan in that regard and I've said it before. I expect the Mets to be above .500 and competing for a wild card this year. It's time.

Right. So I'm not accepting "well Duda only hit 15 homers and we didn't see that coming". Players will progress and regress, a "good" FO should have a team in position where a "usual" amount of regression and injury doesn't cripple them. Granderson tearing his ACL in ST shouldn't shift out expectations for example

In comment 12109623 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Dan in that regard and I've said it before. I expect the Mets to be above .500 and competing for a wild card this year. It's time.

Wait, what? I thought you two weren't allowed to agree, and even if you do actually agree you need to do it in a way that indicates disagreement.

Should I delete this thread?

And I think we have enough depth to weather any sort of injury like that occurring. Barring an extreme rash of injuries that is outside anything reasonable we better be over .500.

In comment 12109541 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

I can see it now. "Well we were 3 games over .500 on July 29th but a couple guys missed games and we fell out of it! Conforto has such a promising future though!!!"

Not even kidding this is 100% my biggest fear. How many times have we seen the same routine, swinging back and forth around .500 and teasing for the first few months? Hopefully this is the year some part of the team (pitching) is good enough to break that habit, but it's almost like this squad under Collins has muscle memory for mediocrity. Just looked this up quickly, but the high water mark over the last 3 seasons was in July 2012 at the exact halfway point of the season (6 games over 500). In '13 they were 9 games under at the halfway point and then 5 games under last year. Being 3 games over in July would actually literally be an achievement and it would have the team exactly on pace for 85.

Yep. I'm just tired of the BS "well, we showed improvement!" excuses. I accepted those for the last few years. Now I need to actually see it pay off.

I'm not expecting the Mets to win 95 games and be a WS contender this year but I have to see a team that is legitimately better than last year.

can hit .340 with 36 homers in A+-AA and I'm not accepting "wait for Conforto" as an excuse for being okay with 77 wins.

"Conforto is on the way, the future is bright! Syndergaard will have MLB experience under his belt, Harvey will have a year post-TJ under his belt, 2016 is looking promising!"

I can seriously see it now..

Staff top to bottom we've had since the mid-80s. Maybe the 99/2000 teams with Leiter, Reed, Hershiser, Jones, Nomo, (Hampton in 2000) will be close but this is the best staff we've had in a long time.

Yup. Each of the last 3 years they were between 5-10 games under .500 on August 10th.

The NL WC race on 8/10 last year:
Brewers were 12 games over (ended at 82 wins)
Pirates were 7 games over (ended at 88 wins / WC)
Giants were 8 games over (ended at 88 wins / WC)

Anything less than being in the WC race in August would suck.

about not needing them to win 95 (I agree). legitimately stay in the Wild Card hunt and I'm happy. Seems like that would be defined as hovering between 5 - 10 games over .500 for the season.

Rojas will manage St. Lucie, Leger to Savannah, Ryan Ellis demoted to hitting coach (unclear which level)

I believe he will be a roving instructor

In comment 12109760 Shecky said:

Quote:

I believe he will be a roving instructor

Surprising demotion. 2 time manager of the year and Jeff P loved him. Rojas I believe is Moises Alou's brother, Moises Alou was one of the jerkiest players I have ever met. Pascucci gets RAVES and seems like one of the nicest guys on twitter. Always responds, always praising others. I suspect we lose Viola after this season.

guys intel was wrong. Herrera #4


D.J. Short ‏@djshort 4s4 seconds ago

http://MLB.com ranked Dilson Herrera 4th among 2B prospects behind Forrest Wall, Micah Johnson, Jose Peraza. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2015/#list=2b �




Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 40 | Run: 55 | Arm: 50 | Field: 50 | Overall: 50

Originally signed by the Pirates out of Colombia in 2010, Herrera was sent to the Mets in the August 2013 deal that netted Pittsburgh Marlon Byrd and John Buck. In his first full season with the Mets, Herrera led the system in hits, finished third in batting average and went from A ball to the big leagues at age 20.

Herrera has always shown a knack for hitting, with a balanced swing and an ability to make consistent hard contact to all fields. He has excellent bat speed and doesn't strike out a ton, with more power than you'd expect given his small frame. Herrera is a solid runner who can steal a base as well. Herrera has played both shortstop and second in the past, but his defensive tools, from his arm to his actions, will work much better on the right side of the infield.

Herrera arrived in New York well ahead of schedule a year ago. Now he'll have to wait to see when he can get another opportunity at Citi Field.



I like Herrera more than Wall but I can't go nuts over it. Mets reportedly really liked Wall in the draft coincidentally

4 for Dilson. Pretty cool we've been on the top ten for LH pitchers RH pitchers C 1st base and 2nd. 5 for 5 so far!

can't complain too much about Wall (though he's much further away). Some see a future batting champ type and he had a great debut. I wouldn't deal Herrera for Wall but it's close enough.

Smith's ranking is a little bit BS though because it doesn't include anyone who will be a 1b going forward like Maikel Franco or DJ Peterson or Joey Gallo. THis is why 1b looks so thin on their list, most MLB starting 1b were guys who were at other positions but had to move. Not 1b throughout.

mean for example Sickels community list (since most sites don't have a top 100 out yet)

Has Gallo #13 overall prospect in baseball, Sano #11, Schwarber #24, Franco #36, Peterson #53 and none are currently technically 1b.

Syndergaard, Matz, Nimmo, Conforto, Plawecki

Surprised Herrera didn't make it. Montero drops out from last year also I believe.

in it last year? Not Montero?

Ridiculous.

but I could be wrong. I just went to the link and I can't tell if it's been updated or not. They still have Montero (95) & Smith (81) on there, which would indicate it being a 2014 list, but they also have Comforto (79) on there.
2014 top 100 - ( New Window )

shocking to me. If anything Herrera belongs ahead of Conforto if we are nitpicking.

has Herrera as a top 20 position prospect in baseball. Conforto (and this isn't to dog him) but is MUCH further away, older, coming off a worse season at a tougher position. Both have "above average regular" as their realistic upsides. Strange.

Mack's Mets about how our "2nd rotation"(Syndergaard, Montero, Matz, Gee, and Bowman) is still better than 5 teams in baseball. lol
Link - ( New Window )

But if they aren't met, what are you going to do? Become a Yankees fan? Start watching NASCAR?

My bar, which is admittedly pretty low, is that I want to be excited to watch the team play day in and day out. And I think with our core of good, young players, we're going to get that in spades.

I have a good feeling about 2015. I don't have any idea what their ultimate record is going be, but with a decent bounce back from DW, Harvey close to his 2013 form and a semi-breakout season from TDA or Flores, we can surprise a lot of people.

yep

But if we get the same 70something win season we've had for the last 6 years, I think it's time to start seriously questioning this front office.

A rebuild in NY should not take longer than this. Most of us aren't even asking for much. We're asking for a team that is playing games that freaking matter in September. If they fall just short, so be it. It would be marked improvement and enough to say "alright, they seem to be primed to actually make the playoffs in 2016 and do some damage"

A repeat of 2014 would be seriously disappointing to me.

and I think all that DMM or others with stances of this nature are saying is that IF the Mets produce another dud, then he will believe it's time for a FO (and managerial) change.

and I don't necessarily disagree. Sandy has done some good things, but another sub .500 year is 5 in a row. At some point he needs to improve the major league team, not just the minors.

Plus, I think it's Sandy's last year under contract unless they extended him and I missed it.

But...I think it's all moot, I feel good about this team. Or at least better than I have about any Mets team since 2007/8.

In comment 12110562 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

and I think all that DMM or others with stances of this nature are saying is that IF the Mets produce another dud, then he will believe it's time for a FO (and managerial) change. and I don't necessarily disagree. Sandy has done some good things, but another sub .500 year is 5 in a row. At some point he needs to improve the major league team, not just the minors. Plus, I think it's Sandy's last year under contract unless they extended him and I missed it. But...I think it's all moot, I feel good about this team. Or at least better than I have about any Mets team since 2007/8.

Sandy got extended this past fall thru 2017.

not caving to fans and sports writers and making a forced move.

How do we know he wouldn't have made a move with less payroll restriction? He may have pulled the trigger on Desmond if he knew we had the money available to lock him up long-term.

listen to the noise

Or he just does not have the flexibility to make any moves that add payroll. Its easy to look calm and in control when you HAVE to say no.

Maybe the team would be better if he had more flexibility, maybe it would be worse.. but I don't think he has much of a choice. We obviously can't afford to be in on Moncada.. we can't afford to pay Desmond, I don't think we would have been able to afford to take on Tulo's contract, either.

I think he doesn't have the money.

Nowhere in Sandy's career did he arbitrarily decide he wasn't going to spend to his budget. In Oakland when he was winning, his teams payrolls were among the highest in the league.

It's totally false (IMO) for anyone to simply say Sandy by choice keep the payroll at its current levels.

I don't know if he had free reign with the checkbook if he would make the moves people here think he would make. I get he is hamstrung but I don't know which deal you guys think he makes?

I believe he would have done something.

for example, sign Ellsbury, sign Cano, re-sign Reyes, sign Miller, etc.

and I'm not saying I know what moves he should make.

Ellsbury, Cano, Reyes, Miller - all change the dyamic of the Mets. Ellsbury and Reyes give the Mets a leadoff hitter, Cano is a big power bat in the middle of the lineup, Miller is a stud lefty out of the pen.

In comment 12110478 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Mack's Mets about how our "2nd rotation"(Syndergaard, Montero, Matz, Gee, and Bowman) is still better than 5 teams in baseball. lol Link - ( New Window )

Assumed this article was a joke, till I started to read it. I understand the point, but any team starting the season with four minor leaguers and Gee as the experienced anchor would be laughed at as by far the worst rotation in all of MLB.

Can we please stop talking about the handcuffs. And how if it wasn't for the Wilpons, Sandy would have signed those deals with Ellsbury, etc. Even with an unlimited budget, Sandy HATES those contracts. Out of 100 opportunities with an unlimited budget, zero times would Sandy hand over a Cano type contract.

In comment 12110627 Shecky said:

Quote:

Can we please stop talking about the handcuffs. And how if it wasn't for the Wilpons, Sandy would have signed those deals with Ellsbury, etc. Even with an unlimited budget, Sandy HATES those contracts. Out of 100 opportunities with an unlimited budget, zero times would Sandy hand over a Cano type contract.

David Wright.

after letting Reyes walk, there was a snowball's chances in Hell that the Mets were not going to spend on Wright. That would have been a PR disaster thatI don't know if they'd ever fully recover from

Seriously?

Cano signed for 10/$240mm and cost a draft pick.
Wright signed for what, 7/8 years? With like $135 present value due to deferrals. And is the face of the franchise...

Those two contracts are not even close to comparable.

an excuse or reason that fits every argument.

likes Wright's contract, but not Cano's.

Ok, I was making an example. people are so f-ing literal - even when people say they're offering up examples.

Ellsbury then or Reyes. pick someone.

If you believe Sandy's major league moves are a function 100% of his roster building and 0% a function of his payroll limitations, I disagree and anything you say is no less an opinion than what I say.

You're looking to pick one over nonsense, you're wright and I'm wrong. Feel better?

As a Met fan my antenna went up when I found out that Wilpons did not want to do the Piazza trade and Doubleday forced the issue. I wonder where the franchise would be if Doubleday had bought out Wilpons. Oh well, just have to deal with reality

In comment 12110627 Shecky said:

Quote:

Can we please stop talking about the handcuffs. And how if it wasn't for the Wilpons, Sandy would have signed those deals with Ellsbury, etc. Even with an unlimited budget, Sandy HATES those contracts. Out of 100 opportunities with an unlimited budget, zero times would Sandy hand over a Cano type contract.

I completely agree with this and he's flat out said it.

In comment 12110621 Shecky said:

Quote:

In comment 12110478 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Mack's Mets about how our "2nd rotation"(Syndergaard, Montero, Matz, Gee, and Bowman) is still better than 5 teams in baseball. lol Link - ( New Window ) Assumed this article was a joke, till I started to read it. I understand the point, but any team starting the season with four minor leaguers and Gee as the experienced anchor would be laughed at as by far the worst rotation in all of MLB.

I agree. He's obviously forecasting the potential and likely weighing the odds that even in a worst case scenario, Syndergaard, Matz, and Montero are at least backend starters. At least thats what I took from it.

In comment 12110648 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

In comment 12110627 Shecky said: Quote: Can we please stop talking about the handcuffs. And how if it wasn't for the Wilpons, Sandy would have signed those deals with Ellsbury, etc. Even with an unlimited budget, Sandy HATES those contracts. Out of 100 opportunities with an unlimited budget, zero times would Sandy hand over a Cano type contract. I completely agree with this and he's flat out said it.

Just because you say it doesn't make it true, in fact because you say it, usually means it's not true. Case in point, quote from Sandy Alderson:

Quote:

Sandy Alderson recently told Jon Heyman of CBS Sports he remains concerned about signing players to long-term contracts, but recognizes risk is a necessary evil in the business. �There�s no question long-term contracts carry risk, and right about the time you�re clearing payroll you can wind up right back where you started if it doesn�t work out,� Sandy Alderson told Heyman. �On the other hand, you have some times where you have to roll the dice.� Alderson remains intent on improving the roster this winter, and will consider a big signing this winter. �I certainly haven�t ruled out a big-ticket item,� Alderson said.

...and been in the bottom half of the league in payroll?

deals to face of the franchise types. He proved that with Wright and Im guessing maybe a Harvey falls into that category in a couple years... We'll see. But yeah, mostly, we are going to be set up as a cost effective team that utilizes players in their youth and mostly their primes and we'll let other teams pay them long term contracts that last well into their 30s. I can't say I disagree with this logic.

He's said it many times.. whatever.. I don't feel like starting in with you tonight now too. Ill try to find you a quote.

In comment 12110654 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

...and been in the bottom half of the league in payroll?

I don't think Ive seen many teams in the last decade go through the type of rebuild we have either with such a long scope. He purposely went high school for many years knowing this would take a while. Now, all the talent is here around the same time and they are all making nothing. I don't think the payroll has anything o do with talent in this case.

�I wouldn�t say we�re out of the business of big contracts,� Alderson said. �But I do think you have to be realistic about the risks associated with those contracts. So whether we do five in the next two or three years, or none, or 10, there�s going to be a lot of risk associated with it. And I think over the last two or three years, some of that risk has been realized. And we all have to understand that. there�s not one panacea.

�Ultimately, the best solution for the Mets is to build a strong core of young players who are coming through the system and can be continuously coming through the system. And I think if you look at what we have now, we�ve got the potential for that kind of core. But it�s a next generation, together with some of the players that have been longer term.�
Link - ( New Window )

And I don't hear Sandy saying "well, we don't think it's a good strategy to hand out bigger contracts".. to me, it just reads more like "well, we can't hand those out so this is how we have to do things"

Maybe it's just me.

I don't think you have to spend 200M to contend in this league but I just don't see any teams in the bottom 3rd of baseball like we are winning championships. Not now, not really in the past either. There have been a few exceptions I just don't think you're giving yourself great odds if when opportunities to upgrade the team present themselves and you have to pass because of budget constraints.

I don't want to get into the whole payroll thing again but I do believe if the Mets are to ever become serious WS contenders, they're going to have to spend more than 89M or whatever they're spending right now.

Everyone compares our model to SF.. well, SF's payroll last year was nearly 130M.

NOT sign David Wright to that contract, FYI.

That's why I find the Granderson contract hard to believe. I think Granderson was an ownership PR stunt.

I'm not saying sign a slew of free agents.

I was saying one.

Sounds like Sandy agrees.

the Red Sox also said "no more long-term contracts" and that didn't stop them from signing Hanley Ramirez, and Pablo Sandoval this off-season. to 4 year and 5 year deals - each with vestable options for a 5th/6th year.

there are ways to do it.

And if you don't think signing one of those free agents would instantly improve the team then I don't know what to tell you.

people that buy into everything that Sandy and the FO says. No inability to read between the lines whatsoever.

Sandy is not some frugal GM that gets by on a small budget. He has spent money to build teams in the past. If you truly believe he is running the team on this meager budget on purpose, then I've got a big ole bridge to sell you. I really cant believe that there are fans that by into this. Why do you think Sandy kept lowering the expected payroll amount after he got here? He quickly learned that he's not allowed to spend jack shit. Come on, man.

That's the RANKEST psychologism, and was conclusively revealed as hogwash!!!

In comment 12110673 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

And I don't hear Sandy saying "well, we don't think it's a good strategy to hand out bigger contracts".. to me, it just reads more like "well, we can't hand those out so this is how we have to do things" Maybe it's just me. I don't think you have to spend 200M to contend in this league but I just don't see any teams in the bottom 3rd of baseball like we are winning championships. Not now, not really in the past either. There have been a few exceptions I just don't think you're giving yourself great odds if when opportunities to upgrade the team present themselves and you have to pass because of budget constraints. I don't want to get into the whole payroll thing again but I do believe if the Mets are to ever become serious WS contenders, they're going to have to spend more than 89M or whatever they're spending right now. Everyone compares our model to SF.. well, SF's payroll last year was nearly 130M.

Well our current payroll right now is 100 million but I still think there haven't been many teams in our unique position before. This exact same team is a 160 million dollar payroll in a few years and they might not be any better than they are right now.

In comment 12110675 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

I'm not saying sign a slew of free agents. I was saying one. Sounds like Sandy agrees. the Red Sox also said "no more long-term contracts" and that didn't stop them from signing Hanley Ramirez, and Pablo Sandoval this off-season. to 4 year and 5 year deals - each with vestable options for a 5th/6th year. there are ways to do it. And if you don't think signing one of those free agents would instantly improve the team then I don't know what to tell you.

Im not disagreeing that he wouldn't sign one or two. But I think it would have to be the right player, and overall he doesn't seem inclined to hand out long term deals to players in their 30s or close to their 30s. Overall, I believe his philosophy is to build from within and plug holes with shorter 3-4 year deals with much less risk.

before specifically talking about his "face of the franchise" philosophy. Ill keep looking but we've referenced it here before.

...it won't be our team. Because there's no way we're spending that.

We'll just flip guys for more prospects before they're due new contracts. Rinse, repeat.

In comment 12110690 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

...it won't be our team. Because there's no way we're spending that. We'll just flip guys for more prospects before they're due new contracts. Rinse, repeat.

Eh I don't buy that. Because Harvey in arbitration making 18-20 million a year, year to year, is still cost effective to the Mets with zero risk. Now in his final year? Sure. But you are talking 2019 at the earliest. 2020 for Wheeler. 2021 for TDA/degrom.

is going to get awarded massive in dollars in the near future if he puts up another 30 homerun season. These guys arbitration years are not going to be cheap.

I'd like two of them...

that is when Ill really lose my shit. I can get on board with this rebuild and I can see tangible results from what's happened here. Im hoping that with a winning product on the field, and increased revenue, things will get somewhat better financially. If we can't even keep this core together through its arbitration years Ill be livid.

Daniel Wexler ‏@WexlerRules 6h6 hours ago

@BenBadler Ben, I know you are very high on Herrera. How would you compare/contrast him and Kolten Wong?
0 replies 0 retweets 0 favorites

Ben Badler ‏@BenBadler

@WexlerRules Like both of them, but prefer Herrera. Both advanced hitters with good swings, quick bats and a mature hitting approach.

one way or the other but the San Francisco Giants payroll for the first World Series win beginning of their window was 97 million in 2010.

In comment 12110701 Shecky said:

Quote:

I'd like two of them...

I don't know...ask Sandy. You obviously buy all the rest of his BS so I'm sure he can swing a few bridges your way :)

In comment 12110704 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

that is when Ill really lose my shit. I can get on board with this rebuild and I can see tangible results from what's happened here. Im hoping that with a winning product on the field, and increased revenue, things will get somewhat better financially. If we can't even keep this core together through its arbitration years Ill be livid.

Well unfortunately, it's a real concern until they prove otherwise. I am always going to worry about the finances of this franchise. There's really no possible way to tell a fan they're unreasonable for doing so, either. Hopefully it's a non-issue but if this group starts to become something and they start selling off integral pieces because they can't afford to retain them, I don't know how much longer I can take it.

In comment 12110728 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

one way or the other but the San Francisco Giants payroll for the first World Series win beginning of their window was 97 million in 2010.

2010 97 million ranked 10th in baseball
Link - ( New Window )

97M 5 years ago and 97M today are totally different.

But that team also had younger guys like Posey and Belt making nothing. Lincecum hadn't cashed in yet. Panda wasn't making big bucks. Obviously their payroll went up the next few years but it was still only 117 million for their second WS win. Now its 150 million. I would hope the Mets would be able to follow a similar path if they are winning World Series and bringing in all that extra revenue as well.

To a team willing to spend is laughable. If you want to sit there and say the mets young talent will come together and win, that's fine. Build from youth, great. No big arguments.

But to compare them to a team like the SF Giants who notoriously add the right pieces , despite cost, is laughable. There's a reason that ballpark is sold out daily.

Oh yeah...the Giants are a finalist for Moncado. See need + address need = win. Sabian must be a genius.

Simply saying I would hope to be able follow a similar path assuming we begin winning and God forbid even win a WS or two. Of course our payroll should go up at that point.

It would be nice. Im not confident in their ability to add players to do that.