NFT: Mets Fans - Curt Schilling Likes the Mets Pitching Staff

In comment 12109278 ZGiants98 said:

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in the Bucs system for years and was borderline a top 10 in ours last year as well.

I will give you one chance to amend this statement. Are you sticking with this?

In comment 12109289 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12109278 ZGiants98 said: Quote: in the Bucs system for years and was borderline a top 10 in ours last year as well. I will give you one chance to amend this statement. Are you sticking with this?

Honestly not looking at Pirates top 10s for the rest of the night. Maybe top 15. I really don't care. He was 15 last year on this list.
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(Supplemental first)



Baseball America

2009

1. Pedro Alvarez, 3b
2. Andrew McCutchen, of
3. Jose Tabata, of
4. Brad Lincoln, rhp
5. Bryan Morris, rhp
6. Neil Walker, 3b
7. Jeff Sues, rhp
8. Shelby Ford, 2b
9. Daniel McCutchen, rhp
10. Robbie Grossman, of


2010-

1. Pedro Alvarez, 3b
2. Jose Tabata, of
3. Tony Sanchez, c
4. Brad Lincoln, rhp
5. Chase D'Arnaud, ss/2b
6. Starling Marte, of
7. Tim Alderson, rhp
8. Zack Von Rosenberg, rhp
9. Rudy Owens, lhp
10. Gorkys Hernandez, of


2011


1. Jameson Taillon, rhp
2. Tony Sanchez, c
3. Stetson Allie, rhp
4. Starling Marte, of
5. Luis Heredia, rhp
6. Bryan Morris, rhp
7. Rudy Owens, lhp
8. Jeff Locke, lhp
9. Zack Von Rosenberg, rhp
10. Chase d'Arnaud, ss/2b

1. Gerrit Cole, rhp
2. Jameson Taillon, rhp
3. Josh Bell, of
4. Starling Marte, of
5. Luis Heredia, rhp
6. Kyle McPherson, rhp
7. Tony Sanchez, c
8. Robbie Grossman, of
9. Stetson Allie, rhp
10. Jeff Locke, lhp

you admit you threw out a lie. Cool.

Vic Black was NEVER in the Bucs top 10, let alone for "years" but you want to throw that out there. Seems fair.

could turn a corner this year. If Black doesn't improve he will see the AAA/MLB shuttle and be replaced by someone better. He has a live arm, but to me someone who impresses isn't a guy who needs to improve further to remain a multi-year piece. Juan Lagares can stagnate or even regress, deGrom the same, Black must IMPROVE or he's not anything worth discussing beyond "he throws hard" which I guess is more fun to watch than Dice-K.

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In comment 12109305 DanMetroMan said:

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could turn a corner this year. If Black doesn't improve he will see the AAA/MLB shuttle and be replaced by someone better. He has a live arm, but to me someone who impresses isn't a guy who needs to improve further to remain a multi-year piece. Juan Lagares can stagnate or even regress, deGrom the same, Black must IMPROVE or he's not anything worth discussing beyond "he throws hard" which I guess is more fun to watch than Dice-K.

No shit sherlock.

young players with loads of potential in rookie seasons who show some good things but haven't come close to reaching their potential should improve going into year two or they may not make it long term.

Simply brilliant. I feel moved.

Have you been drinking?

be good or not. That's the funny part. He certainly has a ton pf potential and from what he showed last year Im pretty excited about what "could" happen with him. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he went the other way either. As of right now I absolutely consider him as part of that young and talented crop on the rise however.

In comment 12109322 Gary from The East End said:

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Have you been drinking?

No Gary. Apologies.

top 10 prospects who will be lights out closers.

All Im saying is he had recognition before he was traded to the Mets. Could care less if it was top 10 or 15.
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at the time of the trade. Sickels had him 16.

Night.

point go so easily. Our big time, top 10 RH bat instantly got relegated to a cheap role player thanks to an off hand comment about Werth - that was the headshot.

My 2 cents, I actually like Black and think he has ability, but he hasn't proven anything yet. It's worth having as many guys who throw hard like Black as possible, but to some degree they are dime/dozen. They could cut him like Gonzalez after ST or he could be the next Henry Owens or he could be the next Heath Bell. His talent is certainly worth a shot but he's not an immensely valuable piece either.

Bell one of the nicest Mets I've ever met by the way.

In comment 12109346 Eric on Li said:

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point go so easily. Our big time, top 10 RH bat instantly got relegated to a cheap role player thanks to an off hand comment about Werth - that was the headshot. My 2 cents, I actually like Black and think he has ability, but he hasn't proven anything yet. It's worth having as many guys who throw hard like Black as possible, but to some degree they are dime/dozen. They could cut him like Gonzalez after ST or he could be the next Henry Owens or he could be the next Heath Bell. His talent is certainly worth a shot but he's not an immensely valuable piece either.

Dude your quietly becoming pretty hilarious yourself. Chiming in on anyone that opposes anything against me because of your Flores hate. The funny thing is, you were the fist person I figured would back Dan in the Black sucks rant. The question was never Cuddyer vs Werth. Or anything close to it. Dan's pointing out that Werth is the Nats big bat. He's getting up there and the Nats have injury concerns just like we do.(and yes that includes Cuddyer) Cuddyer is one of about 4-5 good bats we have in the middle of the order. He's a temporary bandaid that will be gone in a year or two. He's not our cleanup hitter that we are depending on to take us to the World Series this year.

and lost a ton of weight one year right?

Nats, Werth, Cuddyer. Not a single argument, side, or shred of anything was even discussed here. Just a bunch of attempts to start something about nothing. If somebody would like to define something here be my guest.

Black had a horrid 2015 and he should be cut vs Black showed plenty of potential and yes improved as the year went on(going from AAA to the 7th inning role is IMPROVEMENT)

Got it.

on this one you even seem to agree you made a few statements that were a little overly optimistic (or possibly just poor word choices). It's not a big deal.

As far as me commenting against you because I don't like Flores...I won't buy into that until you get Oliver Stone to commit to the project. If you want a reason as to why our opinions have been at odds it's pretty simple, I don't think the Mets did as much as they should have to improve this offseason and you think they did. No need to overcomplicate. And I like Wilmer Flores' bat just fine. I even like his glove enough at 2nd or 3rd. Just not willing to buy the Mets BS that they now believe in him for any reason other than not having the $ to sign someone better.

In comment 12109352 Eric on Li said:

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and lost a ton of weight one year right?

Yeah. All from rollerblading, the writers thought he was kidding

In comment 12109359 Eric on Li said:

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on this one you even seem to agree you made a few statements that were a little overly optimistic (or possibly just poor word choices). It's not a big deal. As far as me commenting against you because I don't like Flores...I won't buy into that until you get Oliver Stone to commit to the project. If you want a reason as to why our opinions have been at odds it's pretty simple, I don't think the Mets did as much as they should have to improve this offseason and you think they did. No need to overcomplicate. And I like Wilmer Flores' bat just fine. I even like his glove enough at 2nd or 3rd. Just not willing to buy the Mets BS that they now believe in him for any reason other than not having the $ to sign someone better.

Please dude. Any person that opposes anything whatsoever you are high fiving lately. Its all good but its pretty transparent also.

I'm done tonight. I miss the days of debating about substance. Don't even know what the hell tonight was. A big waste of time arguing over vanilla bullshit.

Cuddyer staying healthy & being as productive as he was in COL is a big risk (you don't agree)
They shouldn't have completely ignored the bullpen (you don't agree)
There are players out there they could have pursued, especially since they gave up their pick, but didn't (you don't agree)
Their defense sucks (you don't agree)
They clearly have money issues and it's an abomination that the payroll isn't rising with increased ticket sales (don't recall your thoughts on that matter)

I mean, there's really nothing more to it than that. Find 1 post I made "against you" that wasn't in support of one of those arguments and I'll tell you I'm wrong.

In comment 12109380 Eric on Li said:

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Cuddyer staying healthy & being as productive as he was in COL is a big risk (you don't agree) They shouldn't have completely ignored the bullpen (you don't agree) There are players out there they could have pursued, especially since they gave up their pick, but didn't (you don't agree) Their defense sucks (you don't agree) They clearly have money issues and it's an abomination that the payroll isn't rising with increased ticket sales (don't recall your thoughts on that matter) I mean, there's really nothing more to it than that. Find 1 post I made "against you" that wasn't in support of one of those arguments and I'll tell you I'm wrong.

Please dude. We were talking about Vic Black?

As to your other points. Your starting to sound like Dan.

1.) I absolutely believe Cuddyer's age and health concerns are a risk. That's why we got him at the price we did. Being as productive as he was in Colorado?? lol. Absolutely not. In fact I just recently said I'd be thrilled with his road numbers only moving to Citified(.800 ops)
2.) Never said this either. Thought Miller was a unnecessary allocation of resources for a guy that doesn't have much experience closing or a track record of being anything more than a LOOGY past 2 seasons. I actually was pretty big on signing a beslow or somebody as another lefty. Think overall our pen is pretty good though, yes, with a ton of upside and more arms in AAA.
3.) Depends on who you are talking about. Hanley again??
4.) Their defense sucks? Overall? Yeah I disagree. Its not all bad. We clearly would be sacrificing some defense up the middle this year for offense which I am fine with at this point depending on what Flores does.
5.) Who are they going out and signing to quench your must be up 20 percent logic this late in the game?? The payroll is up 10 million anyway. Not really following this. if they traded for Desmond, they could take on his 7 million, right? We aren't up against a wall and we have a ton of flexibility with Colon and Murphy possibly being trade deadline targets later on as well. Could care less about the payroll at this point. The 25 roster is close to set in my opinion and I'm pretty happy with it. It will evolve further as the season unfolds.

But there are lots of hard throwers that never do anything.

I'm a big prospect guy. Been following prospects/minors more than the majors for years and I couldn't resist this conversation. :)

Vic Black was never, to my knowledge, a top 10 system prospect kind of guy, unless you have a really thin system.

That Rosenbaum article about future top 10 closer prospects from BR is the same thing as saying these are future, maybe sort of possible, 5 star players, if everything clicks. A lot of those guys are bums.

He did some nice things, has a lot to work on, but he was never a huge prospect of any sort. You're not going to find too many minor league pitchers who are future relievers, with a 1.3 whip and half as many walks as Ks as top prospects, unless their stuff is INSANE - Aaron Sanchez, Alex Meyer, those sorts of guys.

Of course, there is more than stats and scouting reports, but I think the point being made is fairly clear.

isn't encouraging, But a 2.6 era and a .206 baa are good stats, and the fact that he had no blown saves with his holds is also pretty good. I'll take those numbers in a middle reliever. I'm not excited that he's on our team, but I do think he's an asset in middle relief.

At times, he looked very good. Anyone watching had to start thinking "he might be a decent pen piece for us". Then his "neck" acted up. Which could explain why he tired or wore down at the end of the season.

Future closer unlikely? Unlikely. Out of baseball in two years, possibly. Talented and valuable pen piece, hopefully. I think Z and DMM were both rights in parts of their arguments.

In comment 12109442 Shecky said:

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At times, he looked very good. Anyone watching had to start thinking "he might be a decent pen piece for us". Then his "neck" acted up. Which could explain why he tired or wore down at the end of the season. Future closer unlikely? Unlikely. Out of baseball in two years, possibly. Talented and valuable pen piece, hopefully. I think Z and DMM were both rights in parts of their arguments.

Just to clarify, he likely won't be "out of baseball" barring injury but a AAAA/MLB shuttle without improvement is absolutely his future. He'll be a guy who you hear gets a ST invite from teams annually on minor league deals. Familia and Mejia impressed, deGrom obviously... Black is at an age where it's shit or get off the pot in 2015 (27 in May). Could go either way.

My point was his 2014 wasn't impressive in any way. If he has identical numbers in 2015 he won't be in the Mets opening day pen in 2016 unless it's as the "last guy" or something of that nature. I realize people get tired of "numbers" but that's really how you have to judge a players track record. The Byrd trade was a great one even if Black flames out but if he doesn't take a step forward that will be 100% because of Herrera.

step forward will need either significantly more missed bats and/or far less walks. Second one is probably more reasonable/realistic.

I forgot about the neck. Seriously, the first Met fan on any site or forum that was actually "down" on Black's 2014 season. That was a first. Was his overall stat line amazing?? No. But anyone with a pair of eyes was impressed with what Black showed at times and has every right to be encouraged heading into 2015.

I wasn't impressed and I have a set of eyes. Sorry.

Anyway moving on-

Syndergaard top 5 overall pitching prospect in baseball per Mayo, Herrera rumored to come in at #9 amongst 2b, shockingly low if accurate.

not even sure Vic Black is on the opening day roster if others out pitch him specifically Mazzoni whom they have been hyping up for 2 years now. Mazzoni can't stay healthy but he's a wildcard. Not really sure how Goeddel is still on the 40 man but I guess that means he's a possibility as well.

He was originally used as a starter and it didn't work out. He didn't start getting recognized nationally until only a couple years ago when he was converted to a reliever. Top 10. Top 15. He was a legit prospect when he was acquired.

lets take the "fighting" back a step. If you asked Sandy about Black and said choose one

a) He was as good as we had hoped in 2014 given his 2013
b) He wasn't as good as we hoped in 2014
c) He was better than expected

You truly in your heart don't think he chooses b?

can not get here soon enough

Dan way possible.... Black is a 100 percent lock out of spring training.

In comment 12109477 ZGiants98 said:

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He was originally used as a starter and it didn't work out. He didn't start getting recognized nationally until only a couple years ago when he was converted to a reliever. Top 10. Top 15. He was a legit prospect when he was acquired.

Originally used as a starter... he made 7 starts in 2009 (wasn't ranked in the Pirates top 10) made 2 more in 2010 and blew out his arm. He has never been a top prospect. I'm not trying to be a dick here, he just hasn't been at any point.

In comment 12109478 DanMetroMan said:

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lets take the "fighting" back a step. If you asked Sandy about Black and said choose one a) He was as good as we had hoped in 2014 given his 2013 b) He wasn't as good as we hoped in 2014 c) He was better than expected You truly in your heart don't think he chooses b?

Yes. I feel he would choose A. The kid had a bunch of control problems at the end of 2013 as well as early 2015. He rebounded in AAA and came back and pitched well(even outstanding for stretches). I think you have to be pleased with what he showed in his first full season.

In comment 12109480 ZGiants98 said:

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Dan way possible.... Black is a 100 percent lock out of spring training.

Whereas last season he was sent to AAA this season that can't happen when you yourself say this year they are playoff contenders? How does that compute? You are telling me if he has a poor spring someone like Carlyle can't beat him out?

In comment 12109481 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12109477 ZGiants98 said: Quote: He was originally used as a starter and it didn't work out. He didn't start getting recognized nationally until only a couple years ago when he was converted to a reliever. Top 10. Top 15. He was a legit prospect when he was acquired. Originally used as a starter... he made 7 starts in 2009 (wasn't ranked in the Pirates top 10) made 2 more in 2010 and blew out his arm. He has never been a top prospect. I'm not trying to be a dick here, he just hasn't been at any point.

Well I just posted an article that ranked the top ten future closers from a little over a year ago. You yourself orgasmed a few times when he was named as the other player in the Byrd trade.

In comment 12109484 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 12109478 DanMetroMan said: Quote: lets take the "fighting" back a step. If you asked Sandy about Black and said choose one a) He was as good as we had hoped in 2014 given his 2013 b) He wasn't as good as we hoped in 2014 c) He was better than expected You truly in your heart don't think he chooses b? Yes. I feel he would choose A. The kid had a bunch of control problems at the end of 2013 as well as early 2015. He rebounded in AAA and came back and pitched well(even outstanding for stretches). I think you have to be pleased with what he showed in his first full season.

I'm sorry but the Mets would not be pleased with a replacement level reliever walking 5/9 innings. That's not a guy you can stick in there in a big spot. They surely need/want improvement whereas they would sign for 10 years of Familia/Mejia.

In comment 12109490 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 12109481 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 12109477 ZGiants98 said: Quote: He was originally used as a starter and it didn't work out. He didn't start getting recognized nationally until only a couple years ago when he was converted to a reliever. Top 10. Top 15. He was a legit prospect when he was acquired. Originally used as a starter... he made 7 starts in 2009 (wasn't ranked in the Pirates top 10) made 2 more in 2010 and blew out his arm. He has never been a top prospect. I'm not trying to be a dick here, he just hasn't been at any point. Well I just posted an article that ranked the top ten future closers from a little over a year ago. You yourself orgasmed a few times when he was named as the other player in the Byrd trade.

I absolutely liked Black and Herrera for a 37 year old Marlon Byrd who was a pending FA. What does that have to do with anything? I would have been happy with just Black. Something is always better than nothing. He's a live arm who hasn't been very good YET. He's 27 this year. This is his shot.

In comment 12109486 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 12109480 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Dan way possible.... Black is a 100 percent lock out of spring training. Whereas last season he was sent to AAA this season that can't happen when you yourself say this year they are playoff contenders? How does that compute? You are telling me if he has a poor spring someone like Carlyle can't beat him out?

Never said we were playoff contenders chief. Mid 80s with a chance at a wild card yes but that doesn't make us a guaranteed playoff candidate

The whole world was impressed with Black. Like you said, moving along.

makes them playoff contenders. If they win 84-85 games they absolutely were playoff contenders in a league where WC2 has won 88.5 games on average. I think almost everyone would sign for 84-85 games and say they contended for the playoffs.

he has a spot going in, but it certainly not etched in stone that it is his if he struggles

In comment 12109494 ZGiants98 said:

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The whole world was impressed with Black. Like you said, moving along.

wow. So the whole world ignores stats? I find that hard to believe. If the Mets included Vic Black with Gee for a better return there would be 0.00% uproar.

Absolutely. But he's earned a spot after what he showed in 2014 and that's my point.

Fans can call a season where you were barely above 500 a success and "contending". Personally, I despise that.

Goal should be to win 95 games and a world series. Fall short due to bad luck and circumstances, the wild card still gives you a chance.

Posting sound bites and articles once the season starts. Not a sole alive is down on Black.