Off today? How about we talk some draft?

However, as of now, I don't see the value in Scherff or Collins at 9. Not because of position but rather because I like other players. I personally would rather address the OL in FA and take a player like Shelton or White at 9. I have to do more research on the DEs.

if your BPA at #9 is a RT or OG, pick him and focus on the second round.

But, I suspect NYG will lean towards a DE or WR unless the grades are distant from a RT/OG, of course.

Which is why key positions goes higher, no? A guard mustbe much better then a LT avaiable.

With a good possibility of becoming quality tackles too. If the downside is a strong mauler at guard, that sounds pretty damn good to me at #9.

difference-making OG or ORT at 9 was never an issue for me, if that's your BPA

the model has changed. You can take an RT or guard early. It's a passing league, and these guys are on the OL and help in pass protection and run blocking. So if a team feels they are worth it, then by all means draft that player.

Who should be available in the mid-to-late rounds (where the Giants usually go looking for them): Michigan State's Taiwan Jones, and Michigan's Jake Ryan.

Ridiculous to decide against taking an impact player at a position of need for your team. Someone actually asked yesterday if you'd take Alan Faneca at 9. Is he kidding? You'd be landing an all pro for a decade.

Hutchinson in their prime and you have to use the 9th pick to get them, you'd pass because they are guards? Not me...

I think the issue is that for a few drafts we simply missed on some early picks. Whether that is bad luck or poor personnel appraisal (or a willingness to gamble) is debatable, but if they had hit on a few of Barden, Beckum, Sintim, Austin or Jernigan and/or Wilson had been healthy the complexion of things might be different. I have quibbles with Reese's drafting, specifically his willingness to piss away late picks at times (drafting multiple DBs, for instance, when we seemed to have at most one roster spot), but I don't think the issue is their prioritizing certain positions and not others, generally speaking. I think they could have devoted an early pick or two to a conventionally skilled LB and prioritized OL depth more, but it's not like they haven't devoted draft picks to either.

with Sy. But I don't see Reese changing his mindset anytime soon.

That would be worthy of a top ten selection...

On a another note I have read one analyst downgrade the quality of the safeties available, suggesting Collins of Alabama could go higher simply because of the dearth of talent there, although he did not feel he was a top ten pick...how do you feel about the quality and depth at that position in the draft?

deficiencies at the interior positions, I'd think Reese would put a higher value on the position than he normally would.

I don't think he's blind to that....Jerry with Snyder as a backup? That's alarming as hell....Snyder's 2 steps from a nursing home. There' no doubt that something will be done.

In comment 12111102 Klaatu said:

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Who should be available in the mid-to-late rounds (where the Giants usually go looking for them): Michigan State's Taiwan Jones, and Michigan's Jake Ryan.

I like Ryan more. He bounced back OK from his knee injury, but still there will be a lack of athletic ability there. I also don't see the instincts and reaction time that I want out of a LB. He is slow to the spot, and he gets caught in traffic. Thats a red flag for me. But I think he can be a solid special teamer and 4th/5th LB on a defense.

Jones is good between the tackles, but for the most part he is just another guy. He hits hard, has some power to him, good size. But he is really limited in coverage, won't always reach the sidelines. Another backup type.

I think that's a point that is often ignored is the number of quality players at the position. If you can get quality guards in lower rounds but can't get quality players at other positions of need, you're going to factor that in. Also, are we talking a Larry Allen type guard or just a good guard?

The reason I asked is because they both had a good week at the East-West game, and the Giants met with Ryan there.

in the Senior Bowl. Sy, what round do you think he projects to? Talk about a three-headed monster coming at the o-line if the Giants added him to pair with Jennings and Williams!

not o-line.

but the rookie cap in the new CBA makes it a lot easier to choose any position you want in the first round -- because there is no longer any danger of him being the highest paid guy on your team.

Drafting backup type LBs makes absolutely no sense to me.

unless he was the next Jerry Rice. We have enough WRs and depth now. There's only so many balls to go around and you have One of the best WRs in the league already getting most of them thrown his way. Another WR would be a wasted pick at 9, especially with so many other needs. Good OTs are hard to come by and a guy that can play Guard for a year or two, first, would be an added bonus. To me, it's either Oline or Dline with that first pick and the BPA at either.

In comment 12111146 BLUATHRT said:

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in the Senior Bowl. Sy, what round do you think he projects to? Talk about a three-headed monster coming at the o-line if the Giants added him to pair with Jennings and Williams!

I think he is a better athlete than he is a football player...and I simply don't like prospects like that. He runs with poor bad level, minimal forward lean. Yeah he he has some tools, but he just isn't the kind of back that I look for.

A back I am really starting to like is Minnesota's David Cobb. Complete opposite of Johnson...not an upper tier athlete but he is a very good football player. Great vision and lean, low pad level, misses tacklers but alos runs through them.

In comment 12111142 Samiam said:

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I think that's a point that is often ignored is the number of quality players at the position. If you can get quality guards in lower rounds but can't get quality players at other positions of need, you're going to factor that in. Also, are we talking a Larry Allen type guard or just a good guard?

As is the cost of filling the position via FA. It's considerably cheaper to sign a FA OG than a FA OT. That's a big reason the Giants tend to emphasize DE/WR/CB in the premium rounds. And Beckham will provide even more value in this department as they don't need to consider bringing in a top FA WR.

Obviously, Russell Wilson is the ultimate example of how filling a premium position via a cost controlled draft pick allows you to use your limited FA $$ to fill other holes.

I wonder whether he'd be there for us in the 4th.

does he make it to 40? I think he can play MLB in a 4-3.

G's in this draft worth a top 10 pick

sure, is there one?

In comment 12111172 Sy'56 said:

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In comment 12111146 BLUATHRT said: Quote: in the Senior Bowl. Sy, what round do you think he projects to? Talk about a three-headed monster coming at the o-line if the Giants added him to pair with Jennings and Williams! I think he is a better athlete than he is a football player...and I simply don't like prospects like that. He runs with poor bad level, minimal forward lean. Yeah he he has some tools, but he just isn't the kind of back that I look for. A back I am really starting to like is Minnesota's David Cobb. Complete opposite of Johnson...not an upper tier athlete but he is a very good football player. Great vision and lean, low pad level, misses tacklers but alos runs through them.

Cobb also showed potential in pass blocking which I like

In comment 12111167 Simms11 said:

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unless he was the next Jerry Rice. We have enough WRs and depth now. There's only so many balls to go around and you have One of the best WRs in the league already getting most of them thrown his way. Another WR would be a wasted pick at 9, especially with so many other needs. Good OTs are hard to come by and a guy that can play Guard for a year or two, first, would be an added bonus. To me, it's either Oline or Dline with that first pick and the BPA at either.

I disagree.. You have no idea what you have coming with Victor Cruz.. Randle is a FA in 2015 I believe..

So what you have ONE receiver.. big deal.. and if they shut that one down.. or he gets hurt.. then you have jack squat..

Amazes me that Green Bay can have 3-4 quality receivers.. Saints same thing.. Denver.. Same thing...

Giants.. we have ONE guy.. yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...

If a WR is the highest rated player at #9.. you take the WR.. period..

You do not assume Cruz's knee will allow him to return at 100%, nor would I assume Randle has turned the corner just yet, not to mention it's quite possible NYG decides his second contract is too expensive.

In short, WR very well could be in play at #9. Think roster building, not just plugging in a player for 2015.

In comment 12111206 JonC said:

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You do not assume Cruz's knee will allow him to return at 100%, nor would I assume Randle has turned the corner just yet, not to mention it's quite possible NYG decides his second contract is too expensive. In short, WR very well could be in play at #9. Think roster building, not just plugging in a player for 2015.

give that man a Cigar.. two quality receivers on rookie contracts with Eli still in his prime is a GOOD thing..

for 2015?

is oversold. Their success rates are not very high, while interior OL and RBs drafted high actually do have a high success rate. So if you have a glaring need for either and there is a good value pick in the first, even the high first, it would be folly to pass it over because there is a chance one would be available later.

But teams understandably expect a high draft pick at RB, or OL, or LB (non-pass rusher) to be an above-average starter or better at the position. Conversely, if you get a decent defensive end in the middle of the first, or a starting-caliber OT, you're not disappointed if he's not a perennial Pro Bowler. Is Brandon Graham a disappointment even though he's not a star? I'd say no. But if you draft a guard in the middle of the first round you expect him to be one of the better OGs in the league. It's because quality play at certain positions is harder to come by, more expensive on the free agent market and rarer in the middle rounds.

I don't think most are saying a G or RT can't be BPA at #9, the argument seems to be that it is less likely that those positions will have the impact that other positions might have at #9 (say QB, WR, DE, LT etc.)

To take the above to the extreme, the best punter (Ray Guy 2.0) or kicker very, very rarely would be overall BPA at #9, while a QB, WR, DE, LT often can be.

The Giants have waited until the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round to take OL recently, with very mixed results. We'd love to get Chris Snee 2.0 in round 2.

The Zach Martin versus Beckham comparisons highlight this issue. Had Beckham been gone in 2014 at #12, Martin seems like he would have been a very solid pick. But Beckham is truly a "game changer (even season changer)". Larry Allen is probably the best guard I have ever seen play. If you could pick Beckham or Larry Allen 2.0 at #12 (or #9) who do you pick? Some might say Larry Allen 2.0 because he can play at a high level longer, but I'm taking Beckham because an all world WR can change the game more than an all world G can.

Based on very limited knowledge of the 2015 draft crop (mostly gather from BBI withh limited college football watching), I don't see anyone close to Larry Allen 2.0 being available at #9.

I think Reese's first round approach, which I'd characterize as "BPA in an impact position", I don't see the Giants taking G or RT at #9.

though I wonder if the old "trade down" pipe dream is Reese's real first choice.

a big chunk of the general fanbase.

Andrus Peat is the only OL i can see us looking at. his position coach thinks he can be as good as Ogden

Toughness.

Beckham illustrates what I'm trying to say. Certainly solid receivers have been found much later in the draft, but the sort of athleticism and body control and ball skills that elite receivers possess are so rare that the truly special ones belong higher on a value board than even very good interior OL prospects.

The football Gods owe him to us after not delivering Ogden.

Most fans who followed the draft had Phillips going to the Ravens..

Precisely, well done. And I don't mean that in regards to conflicting with or arguing against Sy's OP or other comments here, but as a general bullet of knowledge it's 100% accurate.

was 99% in the bag, we all projected. When Simeon Rice went a little earlier, I got really worried about losing out on Ogden.

as an impact player, let alone a Guard. Based on comments from those in authority, I wouldn't see the Giants looking to fill those positions at #9.

Is the role that the cap plays in this. Notice what arguably the top OG got in FA last year. 4 yrs /16 million. Reese knows what positions command the most money and tries to draft those players and keep them cost controlled as much as possible.

WR, DE, LT, QB, CB, true high level pass rush DT (very rare) these are generally the premium positions that get 10+ mill annually on the open market. Also notice in this passing era all these positions revolve around their impact in the passing game both on offense and defense. If they don't try to allocate most of their top picks here, they will drain your cap very quickly trying to fill these top impact spots in FA.

Are their occasional exceptions? Of course as there are many variables that go into eventually who they will pick. But as some like Jon has alluded to this is the main formula they ascribe to.

going to get a good player. Reese has messed up a lot of drafts, but has a good record with first round picks.

But people need to realize this is mostly a "red chip," not a "blue chip" draft. That is why it's going to be hard to trade down, unless one of the QBs happens to fall to us.

Peat, Collins, and Scherff seem the most likely picks. Mara said they were going to focus on the OL. Remember that they not only need at least one starter, they also need backups, since everyone but Gaines, Herman, and maybe Mosley should be cut or not resigned. Reese says he prefers playmakers, but he saw what everyone else did: a putrid running game. What's the point of signing Jennings and drafting Williams, if nobody can block for them. He's also still got a franchise QB. Mara said they need to build a "wall" around Eli.

I'd prefer Collins or Peat before Scherff, but any would be fine. No player is perfect, and we are entering the silly season, where every player is nitpicked to death. Collins at a minimum can play G and RT. That's good enough for me. Plug him in at LG and go. Doing so also instantly makes Beatty and Richburg better. Go with Schwartz and Pugh on the other side.

If they don't go OL, I think it will be Shelton. Hankins needs help, and two run stuffing DTs would free up the DEs and keep the LBs clean. Jenkins and Patterson are nearing the end. One or both may not even come back. Kuhn is mostly for ST. Shelton also has some pass rush ability, and was an Academic All-American IIRC.

I don't think the Giants will take Ray or Beasley. They look more like OLBs in a 3-4. They will probably franchise JPP, and get a development DE like Trail on Day three.

Still needing a starting guard or tackle then FA was a failure. Not saying taking an OL in round one isn't a good idea, because it is, just that I will not feel comfortable going into the season having to rely on a rookie who may or may not be ready. Fix the OL in FA and take the BPA in first round. If that olayer is to be an OL then by all means go for it

I'd be looking at RT options on the market. Sign one, kick Pugh inside and your projected OGs are set with Richburg at C. Then, you could draft your new LT at #9 if he's the target, and WB is moved to the bench etc when the prospect is ready. Hedge, depth intact and you could still draft an OG later to put in the pipeline and battle daily with Herman, et al.

I am not an expert at this, but

NO, GB, NE are pretty successful and they do not pick G early in the draft and really do not value G.

A T is completely different. You can move him inside. You can find G all over, you cant find potential LT all over. Historically, You overdraft a T, not a G.

Since 2007 there have been 8 OG selected in the 1st rd. Grubbs, Lupati, Watkins, DeCastro, Zeitler, Cooper, Warmack, Martin. There have been 12 OG selected in the 2nd rd. Every other OL was drafted to play T or C.

You can argue the 2nd rd players are just as good: Osemele, Silatolu, Allen. If Bitonio & martin were switched, Bitonio would get all the hype - he was every bit as good as Martin

If you are sitting there at 9 and Scherff, Collins and Peat are all available, Scherff is not getting picked despite being ranked higher

Do you have any examples of cases where the Giants passed on an obviously better player to get a "premium" position? I can't remember any in the first round recently. Agree with you and others that a dominant guard is worth #9.

Top needs: Dominant safety (Don't see any), OL (are there any?), DE (Don't think one will get to us), DT (Shelton?).

Don't see any TE,won't take a QB, or RB,

Are there any WR or LBs that have so much ability we would have to take them?