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Giants aren't a team that should be picking in the top 10

Headhunter : 1/28/2015 2:32 pm
"They’re really not probably a team that should be picking in the top 10 overall. I think that’s largely a by-product of injuries. The Giants can get it turned around pretty quickly. It’s not like they have so many glaring holes like a lot of these teams in the top 10. They’re not that far away once they get everybody back healthy. I just think Scherff would be perfect for them.
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Sure  
AcidTest : 1/28/2015 2:38 pm : link
we are:

"You are what your record says you are."

Maybe all the injuries means we can turn it around in one year, but the OL and LB positions on this team have been dreadful for years.
Well, I think Scherff would be a great fit at LG for us.  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 2:39 pm : link
But I think we're further away than that. Schwartz is another key on the OL, and then we have to get DL, LB and S help if we are ever going to be able to stop the run. So 5-6 starters away, imo; OG or OT, DT, MLB (unless we're gonna count on Beason again), WLB, SS, FS. They don't all have to be stars, but at least 2-3 impact players among them are essential.
Eh, it's a watered down top 10 talent-wise  
JonC : 1/28/2015 2:41 pm : link
His comment is a throwaway for me, this roster has plenty of holes.
the  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/28/2015 2:44 pm : link
injury issue is a bit overblown. Aside from Cruz, Schwartz, and the CBs, a lot of the guys on IR are not very good.

Did it have an impact on the record. Some, but I would argue that the team's record is right around where many BBI'ers predicted 10-6 to 6-10 range was what everyone was saying when we polled in the preseason.
RE: the  
Josh in the City : 1/28/2015 2:47 pm : link
In comment 12113273 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
injury issue is a bit overblown. Aside from Cruz, Schwartz, and the CBs, a lot of the guys on IR are not very good.

Did it have an impact on the record. Some, but I would argue that the team's record is right around where many BBI'ers predicted 10-6 to 6-10 range was what everyone was saying when we polled in the preseason.


Totally disagree. Cruz was our best playmaker on offense (until OBJ exploded), Schwartz was signed to anchor our oline and improve the running game, and we lost our top 3 CBs to injury (DRC for portions of the year when he wasn't playing through injury and then Prince & Thurmond). Not sure how you can say those aren't major injuries.
I think we were closer to a 5-6 win team in 2013  
djm : 1/28/2015 2:50 pm : link
And closer to an 8 win team in 2014. Yes you are what your record says you are but even after a Super Bowl title you can make honest observations about your team. Not many said or thought the giants would be an unstoppable dominant force heading into 2012 and that team was coming off a Super Bowl title. On the flip side I think it's fair to believe that this team isn't far away from kicking ass in 2015. Most of the talent on this roster from a maturation pov is either at it peak or approaching its peak. Plus we have the high pick in the draft and some cap flexibility and fwiw an easier schedule, at least on paper.

The signs are there that the arrow is pointing up. Still need some things to fall into place though. I'm cautiously hopeful that the mini wilderness is behind us.
These guys need to keep there asses on the field  
Chip : 1/28/2015 2:50 pm : link
and out of the trainers room and we will be fine. The most important thing is to get Elis contract done now or trade him. I would prefer to keep Eli and why this extension is being done now is just stupid. Hopefully the contract is being done now in secret with the press being clueless.
Fully healthy  
JonC : 1/28/2015 2:51 pm : link
NYG was an 8-9 win team in 2014, that's about the extent of it. Those players weren't the difference in four games.
There are no guarantees that the injured players will return as good  
Marty in Albany : 1/28/2015 2:52 pm : link
as before the injuries.
Last I checked, over the last three years, we keep getting worse  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 1/28/2015 2:53 pm : link
We are absolutely a bottom 10 team as it stands right now.
I do think the injury thing is overblown  
djm : 1/28/2015 2:55 pm : link
If we had everything go right last year we probably have a shot at 8-9 wins. Maybe if Schwartz and Jennings are healthy all year and beckham is healthy all year we have a legit chance to win the cardinals, niner games. Maybe they sneak a win over Dallas... And the jags. But they could have lost the 2nd skins game... 3-1 there give you 8 wins or so.

They need more talent but they can add more talent this offseason and Eli to beckham is so good -- that's a game changing field tilting combo.

The running game has to improve. Absolutely has to. Improve there and everything else falls into place.
Josh  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/28/2015 2:55 pm : link
I said "aside from those guys".

But let's not pretend that having those guys around would have made the Giants viable Super Bowl contenders.
baloney. they weren't very good to start with.  
Victor in CT : 1/28/2015 3:00 pm : link
I do like the idea of Scherff or one of the other top OLs with the 1st pick though.
I disagree  
Sy'56 : 1/28/2015 3:00 pm : link
NYG has a poor roster on both sides of the ball, and they have failed to perform at their best when playing against their toughest competition. There are a handful (at least) of teams that could say they are better than their final record. Who cares? Those are the same teams that say "We outplayed them" after losing a game. It's so lame.
Sy'56  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/28/2015 3:02 pm : link
Hits the nail on the head. This team has gotten crushed repeatedly by good teams in the last three seasons.

Being competitive is what we used to root for on on BBI when the site started in 1995. "Hey, at least we gave Dallas a game!"
I agree that the injury thing is waaay over played.  
Red Dog : 1/28/2015 3:03 pm : link
The injuries do have something to do with it, but every team has to deal with injuries.

But picking in the top ten this year is primarily a result of stinking terrible drafting between 2008 and 2013, too many failed veteran free agent acquisitions in recent years, and some pretty questionable coaching along the way, too.

If anything they should have picked in the top five last spring and should be picking there again this spring. It's really about where they are talent-wise compared to the rest of the league.
the jennings and beason injuries  
Carthonfan : 1/28/2015 3:03 pm : link
, no matter how predictable, had significant impacts on our running game and run D as well.
Sy  
JonC : 1/28/2015 3:05 pm : link
with a bullseye.
It's not every team has injuries  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 3:06 pm : link
it's WHO on the team gets injured. You lose Tom Brady, you and no one else, you think the Patriots sniff the Super Bowl. Blanket statements and cliches
RE: the  
Matt M. : 1/28/2015 3:07 pm : link
In comment 12113273 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
injury issue is a bit overblown. Aside from Cruz, Schwartz, and the CBs, a lot of the guys on IR are not very good.

Did it have an impact on the record. Some, but I would argue that the team's record is right around where many BBI'ers predicted 10-6 to 6-10 range was what everyone was saying when we polled in the preseason.


Except the top of that range of records, 10-6, might have gotten us into the playoffs (depending on where the wins came).

As for the injuries, I think Schwartz was a big one. The ton of injuries at CB exposed us terribly also. Beason's injury had a large trickkle down impact on the D.

All that said, I think this team could have still been a lot better than their record.
RE: the jennings and beason injuries  
USAF NYG Fan : 1/28/2015 3:09 pm : link
In comment 12113316 Carthonfan said:
Quote:
, no matter how predictable, had significant impacts on our running game and run D as well.

I was thinking about those two as well but can we expect any better next season. Beason is injury prone and I don't hold out hope for Jennings to stay healthy either.
Matt M  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/28/2015 3:09 pm : link
Ehh...I wonder who had more of a positive impact on the 2013 defense: Will Hill or Jon Beason.

Regardless, Beason is a walking injury time bomb. He may not even be on the team in 2015.
I thought the team turned a corner second half last season  
djm : 1/28/2015 3:10 pm : link
The jags and Dallas losses were brutal though. you're right it's time the giants started beating teams and not being content to just play competitive football against good teams. This team is fucking due. No more excuses in 2015. It sucked but I can kind if forgive this franchise for 2013 and 2014 IF they establish a winning trend in 2015. It's time to win again.
CB injuries were big  
JonC : 1/28/2015 3:10 pm : link
but the team couldn't stop the run, couldn't get consistent stops when they really needed them, and the OL just couldn't move good defenses at all.

It's a rabbit hole, dudes.
I'm not going to argue that if they had 100% health  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 3:13 pm : link
they were going to challenge,and maybe the roster at 100% isn't great, but for those with selective memories, the Giants were a lot of people's picks to win the Division and some had them as a Super Bowl darkhorse. It's real easy after the fact and the passage of time to say oh yeah they were crap before the injuries
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/28/2015 3:14 pm : link
Defense:

Injuries were not an issue at safety. Waiving Hill hurt and Rolle didn't play well. Brown and Demps subpar. Injuries obviously hurt at CB.

Linebackers...aside from Kennard, is there anyone to build around here?

DL...Until Moore/Ayers play the run better... The DT's outside of Hankins were not very good.

Offense:

Line still isn't very good. It's not a physical group.

RB...I like Jennings and have hopes for Williams, but they weren't dynamic... no outside running threat at all.

WR...Even before injury, Cruz had yet to regain 2011-12 form. After he went down, it was only Beckham.

TE...Donnell has an upside, but this wasn't a very good group.
here's a cliche  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 3:15 pm : link
hindsight is 20/20
I picked them to go 8-8  
JonC : 1/28/2015 3:16 pm : link
9 wins if they stayed healthy and the defense surprised. Picking higher than that did not compute last Summer.
RE: here's a cliche  
Victor in CT : 1/28/2015 3:18 pm : link
In comment 12113346 Headhunter said:
Quote:
hindsight is 20/20


I picked them to go 6-10.
I'm talking National publications and Media  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 3:18 pm : link
outlets, not some guy that posts here
most of them know less  
JonC : 1/28/2015 3:18 pm : link
than the average fan, quite frankly.
Sports Illustrated  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 3:20 pm : link
Football issue had them 2nd in the Division and making the Playoffs
Main reasons as I see it  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 3:22 pm : link
1. A DC who couldn't sniff another DC job whose system allowed 230 points in the second half of all games last season. Thats the most in the NFL and shows his absolute inability to make in game adjustments.

2. New system on offense and the learning curve to grasp
it.

3.Injuries. MacAdoo never had two top receivers out there at the same time. Randle was inconsistent as usual.

There are some pretty good pieces here especially if we keep JPP to build around:

-Top 10 Qb, maybe better in second year of a QB friendly offense
-One of the best young receivers in the NFL
-A young line that needs another part or two that could be at least decent in year 2 under MacAdoo.
-An underrated DL that features some pretty high ceiling talent in JPP,Hankins,Moore and a couple role players.
-if healthy, top 3 CB duo in NFL and potential for great depth with health and re-signing a couple guys

With a good FA and draft and some health, this team can be right back in the thick of it next year.
Another bit of Sy wisdom  
ij_reilly : 1/28/2015 3:25 pm : link
On another thread he posted along the lines of this - there is no position on this team that ought not be considered for the draft in round 1. They can really go BPA regardless of position, because they need help everywhere.

So it's like this: Should the Giants NOT draft an OG in Round 1? Should the Giants NOT draft a CB in Round 1? Should the Giants NOT draft a LB in Round 1? The answer is always "No", for every position.

If you want to exclude QB from that, OK.

Holes? Well, I guess it's terminology. The Giants are weak at every position, that's for sure.

Again, exclude QB if you want.
Headhunter  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/28/2015 3:25 pm : link
You're seriously not using preview magazines as the basis of your argument? You may want to go back and see what the 2000 and 2007 preview mags said about the Giants as just one (of probably hundreds) of counter examples.
You  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/28/2015 3:26 pm : link
can make a strong argument for the Giants to draft a DT, DE, LB, S, OL, WR, TE, RB if the talent was there in the first round.
Sure I am  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 3:28 pm : link
before the shit hit the fan, most around here were excited about the team and you know that. The First exhibition game
people started to show concern, by the 4th people were ready to jump off the ledge because Eli complete like 3 passes for 42 yards the whole preseason BUT going into the preseason not too many around here saw this
They should have been picking in the top 5 last year  
Giants2012 : 1/28/2015 3:33 pm : link
and got a top talent at #11.

I guess it all evens out as I believe the 2013 (7-9) was worse than the 2014 (6-10) team despite a better record.

.  
arcarsenal : 1/28/2015 3:37 pm : link
This team still has a lot of holes and a lot of problems but I thought the 2014 team was a little better than the 2013 team.
arc  
JonC : 1/28/2015 3:46 pm : link
Definitely, the 2013 team exhibited a rare level of ineptitude and beat 3-4 awful teams with backup QBs at the helm. That was a 3-4 win team.
I know that I've recounted this before on BBI  
Matt in SGS : 1/28/2015 3:47 pm : link
and others have said the same, but the bottom line was that the Giants misread the 2012 season. Perhaps they thought that their fall from 6-2 (including a beat down of the Niners in SF) was fallout from Sandy. Coughlin candidly put it out there that he wanted to find out what happened in Atlanta and Baltimore at the end of the season when the Giants got killed. They took too much stock in blowing out a Philly team in the last game, who had completely checked out because they knew Reid was gone and would have lost to Don Bosco.

What the Giants did not understand was the Atlanta and Baltimore games were a signal that the 2007 and 2011 core championship team was done and they squeezed an extra Super Bowl out of it. So they decided to hold off on a rebuild to take one more chance at a title with Metlife hosting. The reality was, the 2013 Giants were probably a 4-5 win team that got lucky due to QB injuries (the Giants don't beat Green Bay with Rodgers there, nor do they win in Philly if Foles or even a healthy Vick).

The 2014 Giants were a rebuild. They pushed out a number of the old guard (Snee, Tuck, Jacobs, Webster, etc.) They brought in a new offensive coordinator. They brought in a number of new players on short term contracts that were not cap killers and refocused on the draft and put in more rookies than we have seen in a long time. The Giants absolutely were a team that should be picking in the top 10. The good news for the Giants? The moves seemed to work. Eli finally clicked in the new offense and they were rolling up 500+ yards late in the season. The Rams game was particularly exciting because that defense had put the clamps down on Denver, Seattle, Arizona, and the Niners, but the Giants went up and down the field on them. So you have a team where the arrow is clearly pointed up, and picking where they should be and they should be in position to be a dangerous team in 2015. But were they a legit 6-10 last year. Absolutely. They were not in the class of the playoff teams that they lost to, not yet.
the 2014 team was a lot better than the 2013 team  
Osix_ : 1/28/2015 3:49 pm : link
the 2013 team was a dumpster fire. The 2014 team actually flashed potential.

This is the NFL. The Giants aren't far off from being a 9/10 win team again.
RE: I know that I've recounted this before on BBI  
Victor in CT : 1/28/2015 3:51 pm : link
In comment 12113408 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
and others have said the same, but the bottom line was that the Giants misread the 2012 season. Perhaps they thought that their fall from 6-2 (including a beat down of the Niners in SF) was fallout from Sandy. Coughlin candidly put it out there that he wanted to find out what happened in Atlanta and Baltimore at the end of the season when the Giants got killed. They took too much stock in blowing out a Philly team in the last game, who had completely checked out because they knew Reid was gone and would have lost to Don Bosco.

What the Giants did not understand was the Atlanta and Baltimore games were a signal that the 2007 and 2011 core championship team was done and they squeezed an extra Super Bowl out of it. So they decided to hold off on a rebuild to take one more chance at a title with Metlife hosting. The reality was, the 2013 Giants were probably a 4-5 win team that got lucky due to QB injuries (the Giants don't beat Green Bay with Rodgers there, nor do they win in Philly if Foles or even a healthy Vick).

The 2014 Giants were a rebuild. They pushed out a number of the old guard (Snee, Tuck, Jacobs, Webster, etc.) They brought in a new offensive coordinator. They brought in a number of new players on short term contracts that were not cap killers and refocused on the draft and put in more rookies than we have seen in a long time. The Giants absolutely were a team that should be picking in the top 10. The good news for the Giants? The moves seemed to work. Eli finally clicked in the new offense and they were rolling up 500+ yards late in the season. The Rams game was particularly exciting because that defense had put the clamps down on Denver, Seattle, Arizona, and the Niners, but the Giants went up and down the field on them. So you have a team where the arrow is clearly pointed up, and picking where they should be and they should be in position to be a dangerous team in 2015. But were they a legit 6-10 last year. Absolutely. They were not in the class of the playoff teams that they lost to, not yet.


Agree. Well said
Matt  
JonC : 1/28/2015 3:51 pm : link
excellent post.
yep  
Osix_ : 1/28/2015 3:53 pm : link
awesome post. Agree with that 100%.
RE: You  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 3:55 pm : link
In comment 12113372 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
can make a strong argument for the Giants to draft a DT, DE, LB, S, OL, WR, TE, RB if the talent was there in the first round.


Well, I wouldn't be thrilled with a WR, TE or RB in Rd. 1, but all those other positions seem reasonable options. Thankfully, the only position of the three I listed that seems a possibility in Rd. 1 is WR, and if that were the case I guess we'd be talking Cooper or Kevin White, two great prospects. But to me we have too many weaknesses to "waste" further resources on a WR position that is relatively deep if Cruz returns.
I basically agree with this  
PatersonPlank : 1/28/2015 3:55 pm : link
I think our record is deserved and a fair indicator of what we did as a team. Having said that we were right there in a number of other games and easily could have been 9-7 or so.
I love how  
geemanfan : 1/28/2015 4:01 pm : link
Everyone knows. Dallas was predicted to be one of the worst teams in the NFL by everyone including their owner. That didn't happen. So saying you know a team would have still been bad even without the injuries is not that smart.
According to shit-head Grazasshole  
ZogZerg : 1/28/2015 4:03 pm : link
the Giants should be picking #1 since they have the least talent in the NFL....
GiantFilthy who archives everything  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 4:04 pm : link
would love to see the make your season prediction threads before the first preseason game
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