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Latest GBN 1st Round Projection

Emil : 1/28/2015 4:23 pm
The latest GBN 1st Round Mock has the Giants selecting Devante Paker, WR Louisville at #9. I have posted in the past on how I think Parker is a close #2 WR to Cooper in this draft class and how selecting a WR at #9 makes sense if you think Parker fits the Giants scheme and if you think he is a game breaker. Not going to rehash all of that again.

If you look at Parker's performances this year you will see a dominant WR who was at his best in big games. He is also very good after the catch, which I think increases his value, especially to a team like Giants. At 6'2" 214lbs, with sub 4.5 speed, he seems to be everything the Giants hoped Reuben Randle would be and then some. With Cruz and Randle both legit question marks going into 2015 a player like Parker is certainly in the mix, particularly given Reese's comments about preferring playmakers over linemen.

Under this scenario, with Scherff going at 10 and Peat going at 11, you'd have to think the Giants either addressed the OL in FA or will draft one in round 2. I have always thought the Giants will address the starting RT/LG position in FA, leaving options open for the draft.

Colin, if you see this post, would be very interested in your reasoning on the latest projection. Thanks


1st Round Projection - ( New Window )
Give us Peat  
JonC : 1/28/2015 4:26 pm : link
.
JonC  
Emil : 1/28/2015 4:29 pm : link
Just to add it to this thread, as I've said previously, if the Giants do select an OL in round 1, I would want it to be Peat. To me he has the biggest upside and can play either tackle position.
Ditto  
Reb8thVA : 1/28/2015 4:30 pm : link
on Peat
I have no issue  
pjcas18 : 1/28/2015 4:31 pm : link
with this pick, and he's a better fit than the 5'8" or 5'9" receivers I see being mocked to the Giants elsewhere.
Emil  
JonC : 1/28/2015 4:33 pm : link
I agree. Peat isn't the second coming of Ogden, but I think he's got the most upside of the bunch.
Peat or Scherrf, but I prefer Peat too, as he's a legit LT.  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 4:33 pm : link
.
i get BPA  
GiantNatty : 1/28/2015 4:35 pm : link
and if it's parker, so be it.

but at some point, this organization has to learn (if it hasn't been painfully obvious already) that without a solid o-line, this team isn't going anywhere. a good o-line is the key to the offense and the defense (in the sense that if the offense can control the ball, a lot less stress is placed on the defense).
I wouldn't know Peat  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 4:35 pm : link
if I tripped over him, that goes for Schreff , Parker and all the rest of them. Make the pick Jerry and I become a fan of that guy. The next 12 week are going to take forever
RE: I have no issue  
drkenneth : 1/28/2015 4:36 pm : link
In comment 12113479 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
with this pick, and he's a better fit than the 5'8" or 5'9" receivers I see being mocked to the Giants elsewhere.


What 5'8ft WRs have you seen mocked to Giants at #9? There's no WR under 6'0 in Colin's top 10 WRs.
I love Parker  
SoZKillA : 1/28/2015 4:37 pm : link
But we have to go OLine at 9
Hmmm  
River Mike : 1/28/2015 4:37 pm : link
Quote:
With Cruz and Randle both legit question marks


Sorry, I don't think you use the #9 overall pick for a "just in case" scenario. That pick has to be one that you believe will be the best choice to improve your team.
RE: I wouldn't know Peat  
Emil : 1/28/2015 4:41 pm : link
In comment 12113492 Headhunter said:
Quote:
if I tripped over him, that goes for Schreff , Parker and all the rest of them. Make the pick Jerry and I become a fan of that guy. The next 12 week are going to take forever


You're a good fan. I think at the end of the day we should all feel that way.
A great OLine will make everyone better  
JohnB : 1/28/2015 4:41 pm : link
It will make Cruz and Randle better
It will make the RBs better.
It will make Eli better.
It will even make OBJ better.

No WR can do all that.

Go OLine in the 1st.


RE: Hmmm  
Emil : 1/28/2015 4:45 pm : link
In comment 12113497 River Mike said:
Quote:


Quote:


With Cruz and Randle both legit question marks



Sorry, I don't think you use the #9 overall pick for a "just in case" scenario. That pick has to be one that you believe will be the best choice to improve your team.


I hear you, but I think another thing to consider is the anticipated increased use of 4 WR sets in the MacAdoo offense and the fact Randle is a FA after the season. This is actually a difficult scenario. If Randle regresses, why would the Giants want him back? If Randle's last two games are a forecast of the future and he busts out, do the Giants pay him the money he would command on the open market? In addition to playing making ability at a reasonable price (rookie wage scale) Parker gives you leverage and options.
Bad analogy warning  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 4:47 pm : link
You know what makes Costco successful? They limit your choices to 1 size of 1 brand. There at lest 10 guys that you can make a legitimate argument for the puck. People have written compelling arguments for thei guy, but at the end of the day, it's going to be 1 guy and I'm not going to make myself crazier than I am wanting each of those 10 guys. Come draft time the pick will be a reality and then I'll get excited. Till then have at it
RE: A great OLine will make everyone better  
Emil : 1/28/2015 4:51 pm : link
In comment 12113510 JohnB said:
Quote:
It will make Cruz and Randle better
It will make the RBs better.
It will make Eli better.
It will even make OBJ better.

No WR can do all that.

Go OLine in the 1st.



John, no doubt that OL in the 1st is a more than legit philosophy, it very well could be an OL if the brain trust believes that one of the available OL is the highest rated player on the board. History tells us that is a big hurdle to jump on the Giants draft board.


In response to your list, a WR can certainly do all those things, just in a different way.

1. Makes Cruz and Randle (and OBJ) better by making teams pay for double coverage. Parker is also a big YAC guy so if defenses are going to guard against the vertical routes (Randle and OBJ) Parker and Cruz make them pay.

2. Makes the RBs better by forcing the D to play coverage and leave 7 in the box

3. More top line targets for your QB always makes them better. Trust in playmaking ability is huge. Look at Peyton Manning and Denver.

4. As mentioned in point 1, it makes OBJ better

Does an OL do all those things "better". Sure, but perhaps in a different way is a better way to say it.
BPA all the way  
A1022 : 1/28/2015 4:51 pm : link
I have no problem with any pick outside of QB, K, P. We finally get a crack at a top ten pick(though not necessarily a good thing), why not pick the best guy available? Some people forget their are other rounds in the draft. FA will show us what our biggest needs are going into the draft. But that being said, If you can get a superstar at any position to help a 6-10 team than you have done the right thing. And if he can contribute and be be a game changer in 2015, then that's a bonus.
I don't think we should go wideout with that pick,  
Ira : 1/28/2015 4:52 pm : link
but if we were going wideout in the first round, my favorite receiver not named Cooper is Kevin White.
I like Kevin White more than Parker  
robbieballs2003 : 1/28/2015 5:06 pm : link
.
RE: A great OLine will make everyone better  
pjcas18 : 1/28/2015 5:09 pm : link
In comment 12113510 JohnB said:
Quote:
It will make Cruz and Randle better
It will make the RBs better.
It will make Eli better.
It will even make OBJ better.

No WR can do all that.

Go OLine in the 1st.



If you have been paying attention to Reese, he has a history of filling holes in free agency so that in the draft he doesn't HAVE to overweight a need.

Plus, the Giants history of recent SB wins, doesn't support drafting OL high. It supports using free agency to build the line.

I expect the same. Reese has already said given the choice of adding a play maker or lineman he'll go for the play maker every time.
We addressed 40% of the OL last year.....  
Phlegm : 1/28/2015 5:12 pm : link
in FA and the Draft.
We don't have to go OL in the 1st round this year if the pick is a reach at #9.
RE: We addressed 40% of the OL last year.....  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/28/2015 5:23 pm : link
In comment 12113562 Phlegm said:
Quote:
in FA and the Draft.
We don't have to go OL in the 1st round this year if the pick is a reach at #9.


And they're addressed 33% of the WR group. They don't have to go WR in the first if that pick is a reach.

Also Reese is full of shit about BPA All GMs are. They try to marry need with ranking. Reese picks WRs every year and this team is full of holes Becuase of it.
No.  
AcidTest : 1/28/2015 5:24 pm : link
Parker missed the first six games of the season with a broken foot. Really want to stay away from these guys in the first round. We need as clean a pick as possible, from an injury and character standpoint.
So Beckham and Randle hurt the Giants?  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 5:24 pm : link
brilliant!
The owner said we need to fix the OLine.  
Emlen'sGremlins : 1/28/2015 5:27 pm : link
We Aren't Going WR in The 1St Round.
RE: We addressed 40% of the OL last year.....  
River Mike : 1/28/2015 5:27 pm : link
In comment 12113562 Phlegm said:
Quote:
in FA and the Draft.
We don't have to go OL in the 1st round this year if the pick is a reach at #9.


And you think we did a good job of it?

Of course we should never reach, need or not.
RE: The owner said we need to fix the OLine.  
pjcas18 : 1/28/2015 5:29 pm : link
In comment 12113580 Emlen'sGremlins said:
Quote:
We Aren't Going WR in The 1St Round.


this is the kiss of death.

I must have read 100's of posts on here about how "the Giants aren't drafting a RB in the first round" in the weeks before the David Wilson pick.

Of course the owner wasn't commenting strictly on the draft was he?

No, he wasn't.
So the draft is the only way to fix the Oline?  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 5:30 pm : link
I didn't know that. So if we reach for an Olineman it's because of the owner. Got it
At #9, you go BPA.  
81_Great_Dane : 1/28/2015 5:33 pm : link
Would love that to be a stud tackle, but I don't think there's gonna be a tackle sitting there at #9 who's worth the pick.

Ditto pass-rushing DE, linebacker.

If you have the choice of an elite player or a solid starter at a position of need, you take the elite player. If it's a choice of solid starter or solid starter, then you go for need. Which sounds like what will happen in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.
RE: RE: We addressed 40% of the OL last year.....  
Phlegm : 1/28/2015 5:36 pm : link
In comment 12113581 River Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 12113562 Phlegm said:


Quote:


in FA and the Draft.
We don't have to go OL in the 1st round this year if the pick is a reach at #9.



And you think we did a good job of it?

Of course we should never reach, need or not.



Schwartz was IRd virtually the whole year and the rookie Richburg was playing out of position.
You think we didn't attempt to make improvements in the offseason?
The 0ne good thing about sucking this year  
ZogZerg : 1/28/2015 5:37 pm : link
is a nice high draft pick where we should get a couple of really good players.
Our defense  
TMS : 1/28/2015 5:38 pm : link
was the trouble spot last year and kept us out of the playoffs. New DC on board and new emphasis on that unit make me believe we go defense in the first round.
I do not like the idea of another first rounder on WR  
Mark from Jersey : 1/28/2015 5:50 pm : link
Matt Millen is not our GM. De or ol pls
if they fix the OL in free agency  
WeatherMan : 1/28/2015 5:52 pm : link
I'd be fine with this pick.
I don't see the Jets picking Mariotta at #6 -  
Del Shofner : 1/28/2015 5:57 pm : link
I think they'll bring in a vet QB that the new GM and coach are familiar with, at a reasonable price, and use their #1 pick on a defensive difference-maker.
NO WAY IN HELL !  
Red Dog : 1/28/2015 6:31 pm : link
Fix the OL or fire Reese and Ross.

The LAST thing this team needs is another damn WR. They've already got a dozen of them. What they don't have is a dominant OLT or a starting Guard to go with Schwartz.

In this scenario, an OL is an absolute no brainer.
RE: No.  
Giantology : 1/28/2015 6:38 pm : link
In comment 12113577 AcidTest said:
Quote:
Parker missed the first six games of the season with a broken foot. Really want to stay away from these guys in the first round. We need as clean a pick as possible, from an injury and character standpoint.


How many other injuries has Parker had? That is the most serious one he suffered, it's not like he's injury plagued.
RE: NO WAY IN HELL !  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/28/2015 6:45 pm : link
In comment 12113638 Red Dog said:
Quote:
Fix the OL or fire Reese and Ross.

The LAST thing this team needs is another damn WR. They've already got a dozen of them. What they don't have is a dominant OLT or a starting Guard to go with Schwartz.

In this scenario, an OL is an absolute no brainer.


YES. We don't have a single dominant OL. Haven't somce Snee before the injuries. The OL w 2 high picks in the last two years is still one of the worst. This team needs to better on both lines. How many play off wins does Atlanta have. Their OL and DL are a disaster. . It got their coach fired.
I like a tradedown  
Phil in LA : 1/28/2015 6:46 pm : link
that will include Phillip Dorsett.
What relevance does Atlanta  
pjcas18 : 1/28/2015 6:49 pm : link
have? Especially when the Giants won two super bowls in the past 7 years with an OL than had a whopping ZERO first round picks.

No clue why fans constantly don't understand that a) OL has a high bust rate and b) you don't have to use your high first round pick on the OL to improve it.

The Patriots have one 1st round OL on their team. Solder. Stork is a 4th round rookie.

Why not use the Pats as your example instead of Atlanta? It's not exactly like Brady's any more mobile than Eli.
I understand the argument that the line needs improvement  
AnnapolisMike : 1/28/2015 6:50 pm : link
I don't understand why you pick an Oline at #9 come hell or high water. Realistically, the Giants need 1 new starter if you pencil in Pugh, Beatty, Schwartz, and Richburg in as starters. That starter can come from the draft or free agency.

The player the Giants draft needs to be worthy of the spot he is drafted in. It is a bad spot for a reach pick based on need.
and stop with the Matt Millen nonsense  
Headhunter : 1/28/2015 6:55 pm : link
what does him drafting Rodgers have to do with the price of tea in China? You grab onto anything to make a point not worth making.
all the talk about Reese's preferences  
ColHowPepper : 1/28/2015 6:59 pm : link
and his fixes in FA--how has that worked out recently?

I'd love to have "more toys for Eli", but you also have to realize where the playing with the toys, and having the D makes stops so the O sees the field, starts, and that's with the less sexy, less glamourous picks are made. Reese has lost sight of that and I'm not sure TC is so happy about that.

As someone above said, if the line(s) is/are addressed in FA, ok.

btw, JonC, I saw a reply long after you made it as I returned to the thread, and I think it dovetails with the gist here, when you said Reese did what he could with the $$ and FA available--but that's what happens when you shortchange your roster into a corner and leave few if any appealing options. Reese struck out in his re-making of the lines in 2014 (save and except, we hope, Richburg). At some point....
McGinn draft analysis on Peat  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 7:00 pm : link
Based on recent draft history, the majority of juniors with a legitimate chance for the first round declare. Stanford's Andrus Peat (6-6½, 310) might be the exception even though four scouts said he'd be the first tackle taken.

Peat's father, Todd, played six NFL seasons as a squatty guard for the Cardinals and Raiders.

"He's got everything," one scout said. "Size, the bend, the feet, the tenacity."

David Shaw:
"I don't know if there's been anybody else in our conference, in the last eight years, that is as good as Andrus Peat has been and can be. In my entire career, nine years in the NFL, the only offensive lineman that was a step above of where Andrus can be is Jonathan Ogden -- one of the best tackles to ever play," Shaw said Thursday at Pac-12 Media Days. "Besides that special, special player, he's the most talented I've ever been around.

"And he's still scratching the surface. He can be phenomenal. Hopefully we have him for two more years."

Boylhart:
Andrus has the overall athletic talent, size, lateral agility and techniques to be one of the top left tackles who can actually play Left Tackle at the next level for the team that selects him in this draft. His pass blocking techniques are excellent and his ability to mirror his opponent in this draft is one of the best. Andrus seems to take pride in his play and seems to have the mental toughness needed to be a Left Tackle for the next level. What I see when evaluating Andrus on film is the consistency he has in the use of technique with his hands and feet. That is very impressive and very unusual for any offensive tackle at any level. The value of offensive linemen will be very high in this draft no matter what position they play and Andrus will be one of those very highly valued players.

Will this be the year the stars align and the Giants finally draft the best LT they have had since Jumbo?
To me he has the talent of Tyron Smith on Dallas.  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 7:08 pm : link
A major player. I fear he won't be there for us, but if he is he'd be a coup.
RE: NO WAY IN HELL !  
David in LA : 1/28/2015 7:08 pm : link
In comment 12113638 Red Dog said:
Quote:
Fix the OL or fire Reese and Ross.

The LAST thing this team needs is another damn WR. They've already got a dozen of them. What they don't have is a dominant OLT or a starting Guard to go with Schwartz.

In this scenario, an OL is an absolute no brainer.


If you're going to make a fucking point, you'd be better off without the hyperbole. Where's the half dozen WR's on our roster? After Odell all we have are question marks at the position. A good way for GM's to get fired is to bank on players bouncing back from severe injury or hoping an inconsistent performer puts everything together. I wouldn't be opposed to taking a lineman, but to pigeonhole your options to say "OLT or bust" is a good way to set your team back by reaching for a player that doesn't warrant where they are picked.
RE: To me he has the talent of Tyron Smith on Dallas.  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 7:17 pm : link
In comment 12113673 yatqb said:
Quote:
A major player. I fear he won't be there for us, but if he is he'd be a coup.


There's a chance Yat

Had a bit of an underwhelming year relative to previous so that may drop him. He is also viewed as slightly developmental (as Tyron was) so that may drop him down as well.
That would be great, Coach. My concern, though,  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 7:20 pm : link
is that both he and Scherff will be gone when we're up. I guess Shelton could be a consolation prize, though.
I am all about BPA  
SGMen : 1/28/2015 7:24 pm : link
If BPA is WR Parker than so be it. You have to remember that we won't know about Cruz until training camp and pre-season games are going on. Also, Randle is in the final year of his contract.

This past year was unusual with so many receivers blossoming into standouts as rookies. Normally, a first round wideout doesn't begin making an impact until the 2nd half of their rookie seasons. Also, injuries happen in the NFL.

I really want Cooper to fall though I know he won't fall as far as #9 but if the Giants draft board has Parker at the top when their pick comes so be it.

I'd prefer veteran relief for the OL because Eli deserves as much. If the OL is shuffled as Beatty-Schwartz-Richburg-UFA-,Pugh we may have the ability to RUN and PASS.

I can see us taking Peat #1 as well. Or Scherff even. Or Collins. Or Flowers. I mean, at this point it is too early to truly tell.
RE: if they fix the OL in free agency  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 7:27 pm : link
In comment 12113607 WeatherMan said:
Quote:
I'd be fine with this pick.


Orlando Franklin and then Peat@9 and your line becomes:

2015:
Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-Franklin

-With Peat being coached up & ready to jump in in case of injury (Franklin can shift to Gaurd to allow Peat to play RT in case of injury to Pugh or Schwartz).

2016:
Peat-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-Franklin

or

Peat-Franklin-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh

-Save roughly 7 mill in cap space by letting Beatty go.

Peat ends up on the ground a lot  
Phil in LA : 1/28/2015 7:29 pm : link
not sure why, but it's the one thing about him that bugs me. Wouldn't mind the pick, but I have those OL's bunched pretty tightly and it'll probably be taster's choice as to how they go off.
RE: That would be great, Coach. My concern, though,  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 7:31 pm : link
In comment 12113682 yatqb said:
Quote:
is that both he and Scherff will be gone when we're up. I guess Shelton could be a consolation prize, though.


While Scherff is a mauler he doesn't offer the same position versatility that Peat and Collins do. I'm not as sold on Collins' pure LT ability but love his nasty demeanor and showed very well at the senior bowl. I do believe Collins will be a notch above what Diehl was at LT (when Diehl was still good) at minumum and better in the run game than Peat.
Phil  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 7:35 pm : link
what is your confidence level on Scherff competently playing LT? I just don't see the feet like I do in Peat/ Collins. If he can't play LT, I don't see the Giants taking an OL in the top 10 that can't eventually slide over.
The one thing that bugs me about Collins is how often he  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 7:35 pm : link
has his weight so far forward that he falls over after about 3 steps. When he latches on he's a beast, but I don't see LT feet. I see OG or RT.
RE: I am all about BPA  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 7:42 pm : link
In comment 12113685 SGMen said:
Quote:
If BPA is WR Parker than so be it. You have to remember that we won't know about Cruz until training camp and pre-season games are going on. Also, Randle is in the final year of his contract.

This past year was unusual with so many receivers blossoming into standouts as rookies. Normally, a first round wideout doesn't begin making an impact until the 2nd half of their rookie seasons. Also, injuries happen in the NFL.

I really want Cooper to fall though I know he won't fall as far as #9 but if the Giants draft board has Parker at the top when their pick comes so be it.

I'd prefer veteran relief for the OL because Eli deserves as much. If the OL is shuffled as Beatty-Schwartz-Richburg-UFA-,Pugh we may have the ability to RUN and PASS.

I can see us taking Peat #1 as well. Or Scherff even. Or Collins. Or Flowers. I mean, at this point it is too early to truly tell.


Giants DO know exactly what kind of patellar tendon rupture it (location ,extent etc.) was and therefore know a bit more about how severe and how likely to come back from it is.

Reese sounded a little guarded in the post-season PC about it which makes me a bit nervous. Guess we'll see ,but after OBJ it's a bunch of question marks. A high pick on a WR or TE (top 2 rounds or latest 3) is not unrealistic or overkill in this passing era by any means.
Coach  
Phil in LA : 1/28/2015 7:42 pm : link
feel like Scherff can do it because he does have better feet than that tape where he was playing after his knee injury and didn't kick like he usually does. He won't be a Walter Jones type LT, but he will battle, and has the strength to win or get a draw even when it seems like he's about to get beat. We like to get our tackles going downfield and he can do that.

Not sure that's how the Giants would use him, but I also dont think he has to be the left tackle to be a good pick for the Giants.

That said, I'd still rather trade down from 9 than take anyone who's like to be there.
David in LA  
Red Dog : 1/28/2015 7:43 pm : link
In that scenario, they left Scherff, Peat, La'el Collins, Ereck Flowers, and DT Danny Shelton all on the board.

Any one of them would fill a much more pressing need for the G-men than another WR with an injury history. Any one of them would be a better choice.

Reese's strategy of building the line with low round draft choices and free agents has completely and totally failed over the past several seasons. They have to try something else, like investing premium picks in one of the most important units on the team. That idea has certainly worked for Dallas, lifting them from an also-ran to a playoff team.

Again, it just simply does NOT matter who they have as receivers and running backs if the line can't keep Eli upright and open holes for the run game. As Sy '56 points out, good OLs make average ball handlers look good, but it doesn't work the other way around.

The crapola line they have now is the major reason that they have sucked in the red zone for the last several seasons. And it's the major reason that they can't put opponents away with sustained drives late in the game.

The GIANTS won't be a winning team again until they get the OL fixed, and this is an outstanding chance to get a plus player for it, or at least pick up a really good DT that could also make a real difference. They can't blow it by taking a WR.
RE: The one thing that bugs me about Collins is how often he  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 7:49 pm : link
In comment 12113701 yatqb said:
Quote:
has his weight so far forward that he falls over after about 3 steps. When he latches on he's a beast, but I don't see LT feet. I see OG or RT.


yat, granted I haven't dissected the tape enough to form a fully confident opinion on all the nuances of Collins' game but often times that is a very correctable flaw . Further, I haven't seen it a high enough recurrence rate to cause alarm.

Same with Peat. There was a little sloppiness to his game especially last year. But he has shown enough to believe he is a complete player with the footwork necessary to play LT at a very high level.
If Parker = Beckham  
Samiam : 1/28/2015 7:50 pm : link
Not saying he is as good but if he is, would that make a difference? I don't watch too much college football but one thing I believe strongly is that you don't draft the position, you draft the player. If Parker is much better, or just better, at WR than the available OL or DL at the 9th pick, I have no problem with this pick. And, this is even said in a vacuum since it's highly likely that Reese will address some of the team deficiencies in free agency.
Yup, Coach, I've read that it's correctable as well.  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 7:53 pm : link
I wouldn't be too upset with him at 9 if the team felt confident in the pick.
RE: David in LA  
pjcas18 : 1/28/2015 7:59 pm : link
In comment 12113716 Red Dog said:
Quote:
In that scenario, they left Scherff, Peat, La'el Collins, Ereck Flowers, and DT Danny Shelton all on the board.

Any one of them would fill a much more pressing need for the G-men than another WR with an injury history. Any one of them would be a better choice.

Reese's strategy of building the line with low round draft choices and free agents has completely and totally failed over the past several seasons. They have to try something else, like investing premium picks in one of the most important units on the team. That idea has certainly worked for Dallas, lifting them from an also-ran to a playoff team.

Again, it just simply does NOT matter who they have as receivers and running backs if the line can't keep Eli upright and open holes for the run game. As Sy '56 points out, good OLs make average ball handlers look good, but it doesn't work the other way around.

The crapola line they have now is the major reason that they have sucked in the red zone for the last several seasons. And it's the major reason that they can't put opponents away with sustained drives late in the game.

The GIANTS won't be a winning team again until they get the OL fixed, and this is an outstanding chance to get a plus player for it, or at least pick up a really good DT that could also make a real difference. They can't blow it by taking a WR.


The Giants were 8th in the NFL in the red zone last year (TD scoring %).

Scheme and play calling had far more to do with the red zone inefficiencies than the OL did. They were 30th in 2013.

but keep clamoring for high draft picks to be used to fix problems you have no clue about even existing.

I would take  
uncledave : 1/28/2015 8:18 pm : link
Kevin White before Devante...more polished
As PJ pointed out  
David in LA : 1/28/2015 8:26 pm : link
our redzone offense was top 10 this year with a new scheme. Our biggest issue with our OL is that we have question marks on the interior. OLT isn't a pressing need, getting Walton off of the starting lineup and figuring out who plays G after Richburg plays his natural position is. I think finding one adequate starter and adding depth and future options at LT will give our OL a huge boost. I'm not saying picking a LT with #9 isn't smart. I'm saying picking a WR high isn't the short sighted, franchise killing selection you make it out to be. Randle will hit the market after this next season, he's still inconsistent, and Cruz is a question mark going into next season.
David, I agree that the OG spot is our weakest link now,  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 8:35 pm : link
but I'd be fine with landing a top player at either OG or OT because I feel confident that Pugh could handle the LG spot quite well. While it would be "neatest" to just add an OG in the draft, I'm not sure it's a requirement with Pugh's supposed versatility.

To me Scherff is a potential pro bowl OG, and Peat a potential pro bowl LT. I wouldn't argue with either if they were there for us.
Here's the thing  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 9:05 pm : link
You have to try to think like our front office if you want to try to figure out the highest percentage play.

The way I see our master architect Mr.Reese looking at this starts with the fact that there are no great LTs on this roster currently. And now that the passing game has become more critical than ever , it is arguably the most important position on the line especially with an immobile QB.

I'm reading the tea leaves a bit but with Maras comments we are likely to pick up a new OL in FA but likely a non-LT (as there are no great LT available and they generally cost a ton if they are any good anyways). My guess they will go for a versatile guy like Franklin who can play RT and OG.If so that leaves us with:

3 guys who can play RT- Franklin, Schwartz and Pugh
4 guys who can play OG- Franklin, Schwartz, Pugh, Richburg
2 guys who can play OC- Richburg, Walton
1 guy who can play LT- Beatty (who is expensive, inconsistent, can only play LT, and a bit injury prone)

Where is the biggest weakness?

This is why Peat makes the most sense of all.
RE: If Parker = Beckham  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 9:14 pm : link
In comment 12113726 Samiam said:
Quote:
Not saying he is as good but if he is, would that make a difference? I don't watch too much college football but one thing I believe strongly is that you don't draft the position, you draft the player. If Parker is much better, or just better, at WR than the available OL or DL at the 9th pick, I have no problem with this pick. And, this is even said in a vacuum since it's highly likely that Reese will address some of the team deficiencies in free agency.


I hate tabbing guys early but Beckham looks like a once in a decade (or more) type talent. You don't light the league up like this kid did as a rookie unless you are pretty special.

So if the Giants somehow think that White, Parker , or Cooper are close to that level they would likely be glaring BPA at 9. The Giants like to draft where value meets need but they won't ignore a guy if he is BPA by a wide margin.
Coach, that makes a lot of sense.  
yatqb : 1/28/2015 9:22 pm : link
.
go with OT first, WR in the 2nd  
SHO'NUFF : 1/28/2015 9:53 pm : link
Dorial Green-Beckham...6'5", 225...got some character concerns, but Beckham and Beckham Jr. would make a great tandem!
I'm big on Parker  
Sy'56 : 1/28/2015 10:19 pm : link
especially at #9 overall....but he does seem like an NYG type pick.
*Not big on Parker  
Sy'56 : 1/28/2015 10:21 pm : link
should read
We're  
AcidTest : 1/28/2015 10:31 pm : link
going to get a good player, but not another Beckham in all likelihood.

I do think that we could be just one or two players away from having an effective OL. A good left guard and Richburg in his second year playing his natural position of center should improve the OL quite a bit.

Peat, Collins, and Scherff all have warts, but are all good players. Another OL to watch for on day two is Ogbuehi. His torn ACL and problems at LT this past season could push him down to round three. A lot of course depends on what the Giants do in FA. Signing another guard like they did with Schwartz last year could indicate that they would lean towards a tackle if they go OL early.

I don't see the Giants drafting Ray or Beasley, who look like they should play OLB in a 3-4.

We also need help at DT, where Shelton could be an option at #9.

This team couldn't run, and couldn't stop the run. The early part of this draft may well be about the lines.

As far as Dorial Green-Beckham is concerned, he has character problems, and didn't play at all in 2014. I'd be stunned if the Giants took him at all, let alone in the second round.
There is this fantasy that draft a OL In round one fixes everything  
blueblood : 1/28/2015 10:36 pm : link
our best OL in recent years didnt have one first round draft pick playing on it.. Diehl was a fifth, Seubert and Ohara were undrafted FA's. Snee was a second.. Kmac was a third..

You CAN build a very good OL without spending first round draft picks.. a good OL is far more about consistency and cohesiveness than it is about the individual sum of the talent.

One of the issues that Giants have had over the years besides the injury issue and the quick demise of Snee and Diehl is a lack of consistency. They are constantly changing the OL. They simply cannot develop any cohesiveness.

They need talent..they need cohesiveness and they need consistency.. simply put they need to STOP playing musical chairs with the OL..

Now that being said.. they have done a very very poor job with developing replacements. They have tried.. ineffectively to take players like Brewer, Mosely, etc etc in later round and try to develop them into starters.. when in all honesty they arent even good depth...

And they have had bad luck in the FA pool with Baas being constantly hurt and Schwartz....

However they HAVE invested in the OL the last two years in the draft with Pugh and Richburg and anyone that saw the Finding Giants could see from Ross comments they were definitely looking at OL last year..

I would have no issue if they went a position other that OL in round one.. because you CAN get starting OL talent in round 2 and 3.. especially at the guard/RT position..

I have no issue if they go WR and they can improve their passing attack.. they could go DL as well.. or LB..

they DO have to upgrade the OL.. I just dont believe it has to be done in ROUND ONE.. there is FA and there is more than ONE round in the draft..
RE: *Not big on Parker  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 11:00 pm : link
In comment 12113853 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
should read


Agreed Sy. Despite the gaudy numbers, don't think Parker's skillset (or lack thereof) translates well to the NFL game. I don't see NFL maturity in his route running to get open and I think he'll gets shutdown alot more often by NFL caliber DBs. White on the other hand has more 'feistiness' to his game, fights for the ball better and seems to have some wiggle to get a little better separation (for a man his size).
RE: There is this fantasy that draft a OL In round one fixes everything  
Coach Mason : 1/28/2015 11:18 pm : link
In comment 12113869 blueblood said:
Quote:
our best OL in recent years didnt have one first round draft pick playing on it.. Diehl was a fifth, Seubert and Ohara were undrafted FA's. Snee was a second.. Kmac was a third..

You CAN build a very good OL without spending first round draft picks.. a good OL is far more about consistency and cohesiveness than it is about the individual sum of the talent.

One of the issues that Giants have had over the years besides the injury issue and the quick demise of Snee and Diehl is a lack of consistency. They are constantly changing the OL. They simply cannot develop any cohesiveness.

They need talent..they need cohesiveness and they need consistency.. simply put they need to STOP playing musical chairs with the OL..

Now that being said.. they have done a very very poor job with developing replacements. They have tried.. ineffectively to take players like Brewer, Mosely, etc etc in later round and try to develop them into starters.. when in all honesty they arent even good depth...

And they have had bad luck in the FA pool with Baas being constantly hurt and Schwartz....

However they HAVE invested in the OL the last two years in the draft with Pugh and Richburg and anyone that saw the Finding Giants could see from Ross comments they were definitely looking at OL last year..

I would have no issue if they went a position other that OL in round one.. because you CAN get starting OL talent in round 2 and 3.. especially at the guard/RT position..

I have no issue if they go WR and they can improve their passing attack.. they could go DL as well.. or LB..

they DO have to upgrade the OL.. I just dont believe it has to be done in ROUND ONE.. there is FA and there is more than ONE round in the draft..


Blueblood very good post. For the most part I agree with everything you said. However current circumstances call for a different, more urgent strategy.

That original line was just the perfect combination of guys all coming together. KMac, though a 3rd round pick was one of the top established RTs on the market and the Giants paid a decent market price for his services. Snee was a high second and considered the best OG in the draft by some analysts. O'Hara was a saavy 'under the radar' player who worked out tremendously. Seubert an UDFA who also worked out . Diehl a fifth round pick steal who you could see from his rookie year was a darn good lineman.

But in the years that followed Reese figured he could stockpile OL depth at the bottom of the draft and develop them since he had such a strong starting line while focusing and strengthening other key areas of the team.

Unfortunately it backfired as low pick after low pick never panned out. They've tried the FA route in recent years and the good luck they had with guys in past years (Kmac,O'Hara) in FA turned into bad luck (Baas,Schwartz). Guys who when they played showed ability but haven't been able to remain healthy. Hopefully it will turn around next year with Schwartz.

Nevertheless, our window is quickly closing as Eli is getting older and more immoble by the minute. We can't putz around much longer trying to solidify a line around Eli which is why you need to make the higher percentage play and go with the early rounds for an OL perhaps in addition to a quality FA signing this off-season.
RE: RE: There is this fantasy that draft a OL In round one fixes everything  
blueblood : 1/29/2015 12:22 am : link
In comment 12113906 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 12113869 blueblood said:


Quote:


our best OL in recent years didnt have one first round draft pick playing on it.. Diehl was a fifth, Seubert and Ohara were undrafted FA's. Snee was a second.. Kmac was a third..

You CAN build a very good OL without spending first round draft picks.. a good OL is far more about consistency and cohesiveness than it is about the individual sum of the talent.

One of the issues that Giants have had over the years besides the injury issue and the quick demise of Snee and Diehl is a lack of consistency. They are constantly changing the OL. They simply cannot develop any cohesiveness.

They need talent..they need cohesiveness and they need consistency.. simply put they need to STOP playing musical chairs with the OL..

Now that being said.. they have done a very very poor job with developing replacements. They have tried.. ineffectively to take players like Brewer, Mosely, etc etc in later round and try to develop them into starters.. when in all honesty they arent even good depth...

And they have had bad luck in the FA pool with Baas being constantly hurt and Schwartz....

However they HAVE invested in the OL the last two years in the draft with Pugh and Richburg and anyone that saw the Finding Giants could see from Ross comments they were definitely looking at OL last year..

I would have no issue if they went a position other that OL in round one.. because you CAN get starting OL talent in round 2 and 3.. especially at the guard/RT position..

I have no issue if they go WR and they can improve their passing attack.. they could go DL as well.. or LB..

they DO have to upgrade the OL.. I just dont believe it has to be done in ROUND ONE.. there is FA and there is more than ONE round in the draft..



Blueblood very good post. For the most part I agree with everything you said. However current circumstances call for a different, more urgent strategy.

That original line was just the perfect combination of guys all coming together. KMac, though a 3rd round pick was one of the top established RTs on the market and the Giants paid a decent market price for his services. Snee was a high second and considered the best OG in the draft by some analysts. O'Hara was a saavy 'under the radar' player who worked out tremendously. Seubert an UDFA who also worked out . Diehl a fifth round pick steal who you could see from his rookie year was a darn good lineman.

But in the years that followed Reese figured he could stockpile OL depth at the bottom of the draft and develop them since he had such a strong starting line while focusing and strengthening other key areas of the team.

Unfortunately it backfired as low pick after low pick never panned out. They've tried the FA route in recent years and the good luck they had with guys in past years (Kmac,O'Hara) in FA turned into bad luck (Baas,Schwartz). Guys who when they played showed ability but haven't been able to remain healthy. Hopefully it will turn around next year with Schwartz.

Nevertheless, our window is quickly closing as Eli is getting older and more immoble by the minute. We can't putz around much longer trying to solidify a line around Eli which is why you need to make the higher percentage play and go with the early rounds for an OL perhaps in addition to a quality FA signing this off-season.


I would MUCH rather get a veteran who can come in and play right away on the OL.. draft someone in rounds 2-4 for depth..

If they best player on your board is an OL in round one.. then take him.. if the grades are very close together... you can go in a few directions depending on who is there.. OL or DL would both be good choices.. I could see a WR if Cooper was there.. maybe White.. but we all know that WR's will shift around after the combine..

my point is it doesnt have to be first round or bust with the OL..
No way the Giants take a WR with the #9 pick  
Milton : 1/29/2015 1:02 am : link
No. Way.
^  
David in LA : 1/29/2015 1:46 am : link
you probably said the same thing last year.
RE: ^  
Milton : 1/29/2015 2:15 am : link
In comment 12113953 David in LA said:
Quote:
you probably said the same thing last year.
No, I didn't. Last year Mike Evans was my first choice and Taylor Lewan was my second. Last year, WR was a big need. This year, I could see the Giants taking a WR in rounds 2 or 3 or later, but not with the 9th pick in the draft. A WR would have to be the clear cut BPA and I don't see that happening. I see the Giants taking either an OL or a DL with the pick. That is where the need is the greatest and there is no reason to believe that there won't be an OL or DL who is arguably BPA (in other words, represents both need and value--as opposed to just one or the other).
RE: go with OT first, WR in the 2nd  
Anakim : 1/29/2015 2:27 am : link
In comment 12113836 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Dorial Green-Beckham...6'5", 225...got some character concerns, but Beckham and Beckham Jr. would make a great tandem!


I'm on record for saying DGB is the best WR prospect in this year's draft, but you're understating his character concerns. He has MAJOR red flags.
As for Parker, I'm a big fan  
Anakim : 1/29/2015 2:41 am : link
Assuming Leonard Williams, Gregory, Cooper and Ray are off the board, my preferences are:

1a) OT Andrus Peat
1b) WR Kevin White
2) Devante Parker

So while I would take the other two ahead of Parker, he is still one of my top choices. I didn't even get to see him play to the best of his ability because he had been dealing with foot problems all year, but I came away very impressed with him. Outstanding hands. He caught almost every ball thrown to him that I saw, including jump balls and contested catches.
why are people relying on Schwartz  
BigBlueCane : 1/29/2015 4:47 am : link
as a starter when he spent almost all of the season injured and unable to play.

They need TWO starters on the OL, not ONE.
RE: why are people relying on Schwartz  
yatqb : 1/29/2015 7:37 am : link
In comment 12113965 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
as a starter when he spent almost all of the season injured and unable to play.

They need TWO starters on the OL, not ONE.


They certainly need two players who could start, but not necessarily two starters. The Giants are the ones with the most information on whether Schwartz is likely to come back from his latest injury, and if not THEN we'd need two starters for sure.
CHP  
JonC : 1/29/2015 7:46 am : link
The problem has been his UFA choices, he's trying to address the OL very frugally, and essentially has gotten what he's paid for, in broad terms.

If they really like an Orlando Franklin at RT, I think they'll spend to get him. If that happens, a UFA OG is unlikely and LT will be in play at #9. They'll draft an OG in 3-4 round range to hedge Schwartz, etc.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! THey need quality, physical  
Victor in CT : 1/29/2015 8:04 am : link
LONG TERM solutions on the OL. They have gone the stop gap route for too long. Jon C's comment at 7:46 is spot on.

I think they need to address both lines before WR.
That's what UFA is for  
JonC : 1/29/2015 8:07 am : link
the draft is used with an eye more towards the future.

By the end of April, they'll be in position to draft BPA and not for need. Then, if a WR is the target we certainly can use another weapon. Plan for the worst with Cruz, hedge against Randle's inconsistency and incoming UFA status.
RE: I love Parker  
mrvax : 1/29/2015 8:10 am : link
In comment 12113496 SoZKillA said:
Quote:
But we have to go OLine at 9


No "we" don't. Unless there is a very good LT prospect, we can use FA or a 2nd round pick for Oline and go BPA again.

I don't know how good these top college Oline guys are but we certainly don't have to go Oline. I'll trust the GM & staff on this one.
Draft  
Colin@gbn : 1/29/2015 10:27 am : link
Morning guys: Thanks again for the plug Emil (and there is no truth to the rumor that we have him on retainer!) Again very interesting discussion. And truth be told I have no clue who the Giants are going to select at #9. I am not even sure who they have on their short list at this point, but what I did was figure that, based on the latest draft intel and the way the Giants have worked in the past (although nothing in that regard is written in stone), that the guys left on their top tier in this mock would be Scherff, Shelton, SS Collins and Parker. In the end, our choice came down to Parker versus Shelton (and it was a very tough choice) but in the end we felt that Parker, who combined with the returning guys the Giants have at WR, has the potential to make your receivers absolutely crazy, scary good - and absolutely crazy scary good is the stuff that wins championships - has the potentialto have the most impact. At the same time, though, one could make a good case for the other guys on the list. We really like Shelton, but worry that he may not be that good a pass rusher in the NFL. Note that based on what we are hearing from our sources around the NFL that we just don't think that Peat (G/T Collins for that matter) are going to be in the Giants top tier at #9. Peat in particular has all the physical potential in the world to be an elite OT, but throw on the tape of Stanford's Utah (gave up 3.5 sacks to Orchard) and/or Notre Dame games and ask yourself if that's how you want to invest the highest pick you have had in a decade.

Indeed, gong in to this draft I find it hard to believe that the Giants real #1 priority is not going to be finding some playmakers on defense. Unfortunately, the pickings on D at #9 just aren't that great. On the other hand, there is some pretty good depth on defense so they may be able to find some players over there in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Have a great day. Stay warm!
RE: RE: why are people relying on Schwartz  
Coach Mason : 1/29/2015 10:44 am : link
In comment 12113998 yatqb said:
Quote:
In comment 12113965 BigBlueCane said:


Quote:


as a starter when he spent almost all of the season injured and unable to play.

They need TWO starters on the OL, not ONE.



They certainly need two players who could start, but not necessarily two starters. The Giants are the ones with the most information on whether Schwartz is likely to come back from his latest injury, and if not THEN we'd need two starters for sure.


This is a big part of the reason why I see both a versatile OG/RT brought in via FA and a top pick invested (round 1 or latest 2) on a likely LT-versatile OL. There has been way too much turmoil on the offensive line since the demise of the previous model of stability. Clock is ticking on Eli and the need for better protection is paramount.
^^^  
yatqb : 1/29/2015 10:48 am : link
Yup.
Crazy good recievers played for the Broncos in the last SB  
#10* : 1/29/2015 11:33 am : link
and they got it handed to them. I think we have the receivers here already and would be a luxury pick.

Safety @ 9 is pretty rich for the blood but if your looking at a day 1 starter to replace Rolle then you live with it.

DT - Someone paired with Hankins can make a big difference if JPP is still here which he should be.

At the end of the day though for me protecting Eli giving him Romo-like time to throw can keep us in every game. A top o-lineman, TE (more important to me than WR at this point), Safety and RB are the keys to this draft. MLB might be had in FA.

This draft to me is the most important the Giants have had in a decade. If you get this right you set this team up for multiple runs. Get it wrong and I think Mara has a few more fire everyone moments over the next five years. The scouts are on the hot seat.
RE: That's what UFA is for  
pjcas18 : 1/29/2015 11:48 am : link
In comment 12114022 JonC said:
Quote:
the draft is used with an eye more towards the future.

By the end of April, they'll be in position to draft BPA and not for need. Then, if a WR is the target we certainly can use another weapon. Plan for the worst with Cruz, hedge against Randle's inconsistency and incoming UFA status.


Not sure why this has to come up every thread about the draft. Every single one of them. It should be required reading and all posters must acknowledge they've read and understand it before posting about the draft.

Reese has shown he will go into the draft with the flexibility to NOT have to draft a specific position.

And he said on many occasions he values playmakers over OL.

And stop talking about Dallas or other OL's as the only model to winning. In this Super Bowl the Pats have 1 first round OL and Seattle has two (and none of the three is playing great).

Will Beatty is rated higher by PFF than Nate Solder or Russel Okung (the only 1st round tackles in the Super Bowl).

How is that possible, especially when you read on here "Reese HAS to draft an OL at 9 or he should be fired"

RE: RE: That's what UFA is for  
Coach Mason : 1/29/2015 12:19 pm : link
In comment 12114485 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 12114022 JonC said:


Quote:


the draft is used with an eye more towards the future.

By the end of April, they'll be in position to draft BPA and not for need. Then, if a WR is the target we certainly can use another weapon. Plan for the worst with Cruz, hedge against Randle's inconsistency and incoming UFA status.



Not sure why this has to come up every thread about the draft. Every single one of them. It should be required reading and all posters must acknowledge they've read and understand it before posting about the draft.

Reese has shown he will go into the draft with the flexibility to NOT have to draft a specific position.

And he said on many occasions he values playmakers over OL.

And stop talking about Dallas or other OL's as the only model to winning. In this Super Bowl the Pats have 1 first round OL and Seattle has two (and none of the three is playing great).

Will Beatty is rated higher by PFF than Nate Solder or Russel Okung (the only 1st round tackles in the Super Bowl).

How is that possible, especially when you read on here "Reese HAS to draft an OL at 9 or he should be fired"


Reese certainly doesn't have to especially if the value doesn't line up and/or we bring in a quality FA. Beatty isn't a steaming pile of garbage but he is somewhat inconsistent and has a bit of injury history. How much do you safeguard against that or do you go into the season with similar players on the line hoping for the best?
It's not that I think the Giants have to go OL with the 9th pick  
Milton : 1/29/2015 12:35 pm : link
DL or LB would also fill needs if the value is there. Drafting a WR, on the other hand, would represent a poor use of the assets at hand, unless the prospect represents too much value compared to other prospects available at the time. And for several reasons....

Even if Cruz is not 100%, any WR they draft will only be a complement to OBJ and not the #1WR. And not just as a rookie, but throughout the length of his rookie deal (assuming OBJ remains healthy). He would then sign his second contract with another team where he could be the #1WR. And chances are it would be after 4 years instead of 5, because the 5th year option will be plenty expensive for a WR drafted in the top ten. And as complementary receivers go, the drop-off between Parker and who the Giants could draft in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounds would not be great.

p.s.-- While it's true that the Giants must plan for the possibility that Cruz will never be the same, it doesn't mean they must plan as if it's guaranteed he will never be the same. Ergo, the way to insure against Cruz not returning and Randle continuing to suck is to bring in a quality WR to compete, not to spend your most valuable off-season asset (a top ten pick!) on a complementary receiver who will likely be gone in four years.

No way the Giants draft a WR with the 9th pick. No way.
How could one say "No way"  
drkenneth : 1/29/2015 12:38 pm : link
to a WR at #9 if it's the BPA? That's a lousy way to look at it. 4-5 years in the NFL is an eternity.

Next year is Rueben  
pjcas18 : 1/29/2015 12:39 pm : link
Randle's last year under contract.

The draft is not about the current season (only). It's about the future.

I'm not saying the Giants need to draft a WR. Or an OL, or a DL, I'm saying I like that Reese prefers to go into the draft with options to start at all 22 positions and can then draft a player the Giants target instead of a position or the mythological vacuum based BPA which doesn't even exist except on sites like this.
RE: I like a tradedown  
cosmicj : 1/29/2015 12:40 pm : link
In comment 12113654 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
that will include Phillip Dorsett.


Linking to a write-up on this idea. Phil's not the only one who likes Dorsett. The Jernigan selection makes me think this is on Reese's mind as well.
2015 NFL Draft Prospect Profile: Phillip Dorsett, WR, Miami - ( New Window )
Most interesting side comment on the thread  
cosmicj : 1/29/2015 12:41 pm : link
Colin's remark on what the Giants think of Peat.
RE: How could one say  
Milton : 1/29/2015 12:46 pm : link
In comment 12114559 drkenneth said:
Quote:
to a WR at #9 if it's the BPA? That's a lousy way to look at it. 4-5 years in the NFL is an eternity.
Because I find it hard to believe that a WR will be the only prospect to represent BPA. And if there are OL or DL who are in the mix with a WR, they will choose the lineman over the receiver.
RE: It's not that I think the Giants have to go OL with the 9th pick  
Coach Mason : 1/29/2015 12:49 pm : link
In comment 12114555 Milton said:
Quote:
DL or LB would also fill needs if the value is there. Drafting a WR, on the other hand, would represent a poor use of the assets at hand, unless the prospect represents too much value compared to other prospects available at the time. And for several reasons....

Even if Cruz is not 100%, any WR they draft will only be a complement to OBJ and not the #1WR. And not just as a rookie, but throughout the length of his rookie deal (assuming OBJ remains healthy). He would then sign his second contract with another team where he could be the #1WR. And chances are it would be after 4 years instead of 5, because the 5th year option will be plenty expensive for a WR drafted in the top ten. And as complementary receivers go, the drop-off between Parker and who the Giants could draft in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounds would not be great.

p.s.-- While it's true that the Giants must plan for the possibility that Cruz will never be the same, it doesn't mean they must plan as if it's guaranteed he will never be the same. Ergo, the way to insure against Cruz not returning and Randle continuing to suck is to bring in a quality WR to compete, not to spend your most valuable off-season asset (a top ten pick!) on a complementary receiver who will likely be gone in four years.

No way the Giants draft a WR with the 9th pick. No way.


You bring up some salient points but there are arguments the other way too.

-2 cost controlled WR's OBJ and Cooper/White/Parker together who could star in this offense for the next 3-4 years on a rookie contract and for the remainder of Eli's prime.

-Makes Cruz expendable especially when his 7.9 comes into play next year.

I am leaning toward the potential elite LT as I think this helps and solidifies our team more. But it all comes down to the Giants evaluation and draft board. If you go by what Colin,JonC and others are saying early in this draft process the top strength of this draft at 9 may be WR. Many other positons may not carry the same value or aren't good system fits. So if BPA by a considerable margin is a wide-out, I don't think you ignore that and force a pick elsewhere.
We dont need to draft someone to replace the LT in a few years  
blueblood : 1/29/2015 1:16 pm : link
Pugh is already on the team. All he played in college was LT.
RE: We dont need to draft someone to replace the LT in a few years  
Coach Mason : 1/29/2015 1:30 pm : link
In comment 12114614 blueblood said:
Quote:
Pugh is already on the team. All he played in college was LT.


blue when the Giants drafted Pugh they mentioned he could potentially play tackle. However, after two years of evaluating his play/potential, we don't know if they still feel that way . Personally I think he can play LT but only in a pinch. I think his skillset lends itself much better to OG or RT.

By drafting Peat or Collins (if the Giants have them ranked highly at LT) it hopefully gives us two above average options at LT (Beatty and Peat/Collins) in 2015-16 and then make Beatty expendable and a possible big cap savings in 2016-17.

*should read  
Coach Mason : 1/29/2015 1:31 pm : link
potentially play Left tackle
RE: Draft  
Emil : 1/29/2015 1:40 pm : link
In comment 12114295 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Morning guys: Thanks again for the plug Emil (and there is no truth to the rumor that we have him on retainer!) Again very interesting discussion. And truth be told I have no clue who the Giants are going to select at #9. I am not even sure who they have on their short list at this point, but what I did was figure that, based on the latest draft intel and the way the Giants have worked in the past (although nothing in that regard is written in stone), that the guys left on their top tier in this mock would be Scherff, Shelton, SS Collins and Parker. In the end, our choice came down to Parker versus Shelton (and it was a very tough choice) but in the end we felt that Parker, who combined with the returning guys the Giants have at WR, has the potential to make your receivers absolutely crazy, scary good - and absolutely crazy scary good is the stuff that wins championships - has the potentialto have the most impact. At the same time, though, one could make a good case for the other guys on the list. We really like Shelton, but worry that he may not be that good a pass rusher in the NFL. Note that based on what we are hearing from our sources around the NFL that we just don't think that Peat (G/T Collins for that matter) are going to be in the Giants top tier at #9. Peat in particular has all the physical potential in the world to be an elite OT, but throw on the tape of Stanford's Utah (gave up 3.5 sacks to Orchard) and/or Notre Dame games and ask yourself if that's how you want to invest the highest pick you have had in a decade.

Indeed, gong in to this draft I find it hard to believe that the Giants real #1 priority is not going to be finding some playmakers on defense. Unfortunately, the pickings on D at #9 just aren't that great. On the other hand, there is some pretty good depth on defense so they may be able to find some players over there in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Have a great day. Stay warm!


Thanks for weighing in Colin. I've relied on GBN for my draft info for a long long time now (so long I don't want to say how long) and I think the site provides superior insight. You guys are plugged in and do your due diligence. I also like the effort to think like the GM when you do your mocks. I don't always feel like the prominent draftniks do that (despite how good I think someone like Moyock is).

I concur with your assessment that Parker makes the Giants WRs corps crazy scarey good, and it could make it crazy scary good for the next 2-3 seasons depending on whether the Giants resign Randle or not. I completely understand any fan's wish (sometimes demand) for an OL at #9. The OL needs improvement, no question, but I think the fact remains there are zero blue goose tackles in this draft, every top guy has question marks, and you can get what you need in FA for a reasonable price. Dallas had great success with their line, but there is more than one way to build it. Football is about matchups (as we all know) and the benefit of having a unit on your team that is simply unstoppable cannot be understated. There is a certain wisdom in playing to your strengths and turning a position of strength into a position of dominance.

I'm not ruling out an OL at #9, but I keep coming back to the logic that says there will be players of greater value at #9, and Reese is not going to reach on a guy when he can get a difference maker and future pro-bowl player.
Draft  
ReneNYG1 : 1/29/2015 1:45 pm : link
I have been on parker for our top choice from day one screaming it at the top of my lungs,he's a huge impact player and would make us unstopable,we can address a guar and right tackle through free agency or later rounds if we get Parker first and Gordon second our offense would be amazing.
The disliking of Reese..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/29/2015 1:46 pm : link
has gotten to idiotic proportions here.

You have one guy calling him Matt Millen. Yeah, like Millen ever drafted a WR better than Nicks or ODB?

What the fuck.
Every year some people say to draft a particular position  
Go Terps : 1/29/2015 1:58 pm : link
And every year those people are wrong.

The Giants have scouts. Those scouts inform the front office about the college players. The front office makes decisions based on that information. Trust that process. I wanted Martin last year...I thought that was a meeting of talent and need. But Martin would have been a horrendous pick, because Beckham looks at this early stage like one of the best pure athletes the NFL has ever seen.

Trust the process in place. If the scouts are good and their judgment shapes the board, the board will bring in quality more often than not.
RE: RE: We dont need to draft someone to replace the LT in a few years  
blueblood : 1/29/2015 2:07 pm : link
In comment 12114639 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 12114614 blueblood said:


Quote:


Pugh is already on the team. All he played in college was LT.



blue when the Giants drafted Pugh they mentioned he could potentially play tackle. However, after two years of evaluating his play/potential, we don't know if they still feel that way . Personally I think he can play LT but only in a pinch. I think his skillset lends itself much better to OG or RT.

By drafting Peat or Collins (if the Giants have them ranked highly at LT) it hopefully gives us two above average options at LT (Beatty and Peat/Collins) in 2015-16 and then make Beatty expendable and a possible big cap savings in 2016-17.


They thought he COULD play tackle..

I disagree.. Pugh IS a tackle.. He doesnt play Left Tackle because Beatty is on the team and Beatty can only play left Tackle.

What they said was they they felt that Pugh could play any position on the OL.. He was already a tackle and he played tackle BETTER than every other tackle drafted ahead of him when he was drafted..

Last year he had to block next to John Jerry.. who SUCKS..

Bottom line as I said before and have said consistently.. the Giants issue on the OL is the INTERIOR not at tackle.. and if you got a decent guard next to Beatty and Pugh both of them would also improve as a result..

But Giants fans again have this fantasy that if we just draft a tackle in the first round all our problems are solved.. which I dont accept as the only way to fix the OL.. Fixing the OL IMO is not fixed by taking a Tackle in round one.. and THEN moving a guy who has NEVER PLAYED GUARD EVER at any level into that position.. Pugh isnt built like a guard.. he is not know as a power player.. but fans keep saying.. I think he can play guard based on ZERO evidence..

I say.. get a guard.. problem solved...
RE: RE: It's not that I think the Giants have to go OL with the 9th pick  
Milton : 1/29/2015 2:15 pm : link
In comment 12114579 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
...if BPA by a considerable margin is a wide-out, I don't think you ignore that and force a pick elsewhere.
I agree 100%. I just don't think the margin between a receiver and a lineman will be significant enough that the Giants would be "forcing" the pick.
p.s.-- There will be some interesting WR prospects to be had on day two that would also look mighty good feasting off single coverage.
Colin  
Anakim : 1/29/2015 2:18 pm : link
Just curious, but how do you reconcile/explain the Orchard/Peat game?
The Giants  
BigBlueCane : 1/29/2015 2:38 pm : link
scouts either have been very bad or the people utilizing their reports have been very bad. Pick One, don't care which, but do so and apply it to your thinking Terps.

And again, relying on FA isn't this group's strong point. Not just their talent evaluations but the fact that in FA, every team gets to bid on the talent available.
RE: Colin  
Coach Mason : 1/29/2015 2:39 pm : link
In comment 12114725 Anakim said:
Quote:
Just curious, but how do you reconcile/explain the Orchard/Peat game?


He absolutely shut down Anthony Barr the previous year and other highly rated pass rushers. The question with Peat is why the inconsistency? The talent is there in spades.

A couple analysts feel he is the most talented LT they've seen since Ogden. That is enormous praise. He did have a down year last year and the key is to figure out why and if it is a true red flag for future performance or not.
RE: The Giants  
Go Terps : 1/29/2015 2:42 pm : link
In comment 12114757 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
scouts either have been very bad or the people utilizing their reports have been very bad. Pick One, don't care which, but do so and apply it to your thinking Terps.

And again, relying on FA isn't this group's strong point. Not just their talent evaluations but the fact that in FA, every team gets to bid on the talent available.


Picking a position gets you shittier players. That's a fact that's been borne out over and over again since the beginning of time.

We could have taken Martin last year, and we'd be farther away from winning than we are now. If the board this year says an OL is tops, great...take him. But don't force it.
Reconcilaition  
Colin@gbn : 1/29/2015 2:48 pm : link
Anakim et al: The simple answer I can't! The problem with Peat which so many people seem to be overlooking in their almost obsessional (delusional!) desire to draft an OL is that while he unquestionably has the Top 5 physical tools to be a potential elite shut down LT at the next level, talk to scouts and they are distressed by the fact he was very inconsistent in his effort on the field in terms of his intensity level and that he lacked that nastiness edge. And what I am hearing from my sources is that he is a guy who could drop significantly come the draft although a team with a legit huge need for a LT may not be willing to wait.

And maybe I just have a bias against Stanford LTs. When I first got into the draft back in the 1970s one of my favorite Giants picks at the time of the draft was Gordon King in 1978. I recall really sweating out the first 9 picks of that draft; I mean he was the real deal as a LT prospect: big, physical and nasty, but also very athletic and as smart as they come, however, for whatever reason it turned out he couldn't play at the next level. But that's the draft for you!

Whatever, bottom line is I just don't see him being in the Giants top tier when they get on the clock on April 30 (which is my birthday by the way! What are the odds!) and if we know anything about the Giants its that they will stay true to their board.
Nope  
BigBlueCane : 1/29/2015 2:49 pm : link
if we had taken Martin, there is no way of telling where we'd be in terms of rebuilding.

We have zero way of measuring just how better our running game would be with him starting for example.

Personally I would have selected Martin AND Richburg in the draft if for no other reason then to tell Eli Manning, "Come hell or high water, I'm going to protect you".

And Reese has repeated targeted selected certain positions, Matty has detailed his perchant for WR's but Aaron Ross's selection is another example of him doing so.
RE: Reconcilaition  
Coach Mason : 1/29/2015 2:56 pm : link
In comment 12114779 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Anakim et al: The simple answer I can't! The problem with Peat which so many people seem to be overlooking in their almost obsessional (delusional!) desire to draft an OL is that while he unquestionably has the Top 5 physical tools to be a potential elite shut down LT at the next level, talk to scouts and they are distressed by the fact he was very inconsistent in his effort on the field in terms of his intensity level and that he lacked that nastiness edge. And what I am hearing from my sources is that he is a guy who could drop significantly come the draft although a team with a legit huge need for a LT may not be willing to wait.

And maybe I just have a bias against Stanford LTs. When I first got into the draft back in the 1970s one of my favorite Giants picks at the time of the draft was Gordon King in 1978. I recall really sweating out the first 9 picks of that draft; I mean he was the real deal as a LT prospect: big, physical and nasty, but also very athletic and as smart as they come, however, for whatever reason it turned out he couldn't play at the next level. But that's the draft for you!

Whatever, bottom line is I just don't see him being in the Giants top tier when they get on the clock on April 30 (which is my birthday by the way! What are the odds!) and if we know anything about the Giants its that they will stay true to their board.


Colin I think you nailed it. However you can bet the Giants will do their homework to figure out exactly what mental lapses caused him to underwhelm last year. There is so much talent there to pass up if you think it was just part of the growing up process for a young kid.
Draft insanity  
Colin@gbn : 1/29/2015 3:01 pm : link
I am with on that Cane! And while we're on a rant (and I am historical memory-tour), WTF were George Young and the Giants thinking back in 1981 when they took Lawrence Taylor when they already had the best LB corps in the league - heck the guy didn't even play LB in college but was a down DE so was a prject to boot - when they had the NFL's worst offense and could have taken a back like Freeman McNeill to really juice the run game.
RE: Nope  
Go Terps : 1/29/2015 3:09 pm : link
In comment 12114781 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
if we had taken Martin, there is no way of telling where we'd be in terms of rebuilding.

We have zero way of measuring just how better our running game would be with him starting for example.

Personally I would have selected Martin AND Richburg in the draft if for no other reason then to tell Eli Manning, "Come hell or high water, I'm going to protect you".

And Reese has repeated targeted selected certain positions, Matty has detailed his perchant for WR's but Aaron Ross's selection is another example of him doing so.


I have no problems drafting any OL position high, and I'm a fan of cluster drafting if the board dictates it and the opportunity is there.

But I can't support drafting Zack Martin over Beckham, given what we know now. An argument can be made that Beckham was the single best player in the league once he started playing. He looks like a generational player in the class of Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson...or maybe something better.

There will be other opportunities to find Zack Martin. Reese is unlikely to encounter another Beckham for the remainder of his career.

Beckham was the correct pick. That is indisputable.
Due diligence  
Colin@gbn : 1/29/2015 3:13 pm : link
Coach et al: Absolutely the Giants are going to do their due diligence on the kid, but that tends to be one of those kinds of things where you almost have to take a leap of faith. You'd almost rather he had a down year b/c of an injury or position change or something a little more tangible. As I noted I think Peat is a guy some team with a real desperate need at LT will take that leap, but are the Giants really in that state at that position that they will be willing to for all intents and purposes close their eyes and hope and pray (although truth be told that's what one does with every pick).

Haven't mentioned this before but one thing to take into consideration is that the 2016 draft could be really loaded at OT with guys like Ronnie Stanley, Conklin of Michigan State, Laremy Tunsil of Mississppi, Taylor Decker of Ohio State, Spencer Drango of Baylor, Le'Raven Clark of Texas Tech and LSU's Jerald Hawkins among others likely to be available. Just saying
The single best player in the league  
BigBlueCane : 1/29/2015 3:14 pm : link
resulted in how many more wins over good teams?

I'm not saying Martin would have helped any more or less, I'm saying that line of reasoning is dubious if the overall goal is to win the championship not just score a lot of points and rack up stats.

Sorry I reject the notion that Beckham was the correct pick. The correct draft pick and strategy was to rebuild the OL as soon as possible. Now we're stuck waiting another off season to see if they can fix it again.
Terps +1  
JonC : 1/29/2015 3:15 pm : link
.
I was going to comment, but I'll just  
drkenneth : 1/29/2015 3:24 pm : link
let Terps and JonC have their way with BBC, who is current stance is that OBD was not the correct pick. Already then...
Whose current stance.  
drkenneth : 1/29/2015 3:25 pm : link
.
That's just silly...  
Dunedin81 : 1/29/2015 3:27 pm : link
Beckham is a special talent. The difference in talent and impact between an average guard and an elite one is much less than between an average receiver and an elite one. DCs do not gameplan around Martin. An entire line? Sure. But if you take Martin away from that line and throw in an average G and they're still a very strong line. Take Beckham away from that receiving corps, with or without Cruz, and they take a huge step backward. A single lineman, even a very good one, has a limited impact.
RE: The single best player in the league  
Go Terps : 1/29/2015 3:32 pm : link
In comment 12114832 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
resulted in how many more wins over good teams?

I'm not saying Martin would have helped any more or less, I'm saying that line of reasoning is dubious if the overall goal is to win the championship not just score a lot of points and rack up stats.

Sorry I reject the notion that Beckham was the correct pick. The correct draft pick and strategy was to rebuild the OL as soon as possible. Now we're stuck waiting another off season to see if they can fix it again.


I'll say again...there were opportunities beyond last year's first round pick to add to the OL. Richburg is an example of that. There were no other opportunities, and there likely won't be again for many years, to add a player of Beckham's quality. You don't make decisions like that for 2014 alone.

Your thinking is what gets you Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan, Jamarcus Russell over Megatron, etc.
The Peat  
RB^2 : 1/29/2015 3:35 pm : link
give it to me.
Strange  
Colin@gbn : 1/29/2015 3:36 pm : link
What I find so strange in all of this is that no one is screaming about the defense. The fact is that the Giants were 10th in the league in total offense in 2014, while the Dallas juggernaut led by that awesome OL was 7th - and would it surprise anyone if I told you that Romo was actually sacked MORE OFTEN - one more time anyway - than Eli despite the fact that Eli had 165 MORE pass attempts. You can look it up. On the other hand the defense was 29th and led the league in big plays allowed, was 31st in allowing first downs on 1st or 2nd down and just wasn't very good.
Colin....  
drkenneth : 1/29/2015 3:45 pm : link
I believe the defense was combination of poor scheme and injuries. If this defense made 1 or 2 stops last year, we probably win another game or two.

Plus- A lot has been invested in this defense:

-DRC/Prince
-Thurmond
-JPP will be resigned/franchised
-Hankins is a player (2nd round pick)
-We let LJ walk (could have paired him with Hankins)
-Moore will be better utilized
-3rd round pick on Bromley
-Wynn + Ayers
-Kennard looks like he may be a keeper.

I'm not saying the defense is set, and wouldn't be against a big time pass-rusher, but the offense needs some love.
wrong again Terps stop using strawmen  
BigBlueCane : 1/29/2015 3:49 pm : link
Basketball is a completely different sport so that comparison doesn't hold up. And everyone KNEW Russell was not even close to being the player of Johnson (who still hasn't sniffed a SB yet despite a once in a generation talent BTW).

Did they have the opportunity to rebuild the OL before last year? Yep, that's part of the problem, they had numerous opportunities and blew them repeatedly reaching on players they thought had bigger upsides or similar justification. Go look up the draft write-ups, we all know the names. Hell Reese's "JPP of TE" is so talented, he's been passed on the depth chart by two undrafted free Agents.

Using Once in a generational talent as your justification doesn't excuse the stupidity of your earlier mistakes. Beckham doesn't cancel out the draft misses on Barden, Beckum, Moss, etc... The most important players in the two SB wins were either Marginal WR's (Tyree) or mistake prone (Manningham) that played out of their minds that day.

Dunedin not the same comparison because every team's situation is different. Taking Beckham away from the WR corp would hurt it yes but there's a very good chance that with both Martin and Richburg (which is what I advacoated for) would have meant a stronger Running game which also helps out.

And Colin, can you remind me about the discussion we had in the Seattle game about how the game of football has changed and it's no longer about winning in the trenches, I seem to have forgotten about that as I watched Lynch and the OL just bend our defense backwards and run them over.
RE: Strange  
pjcas18 : 1/29/2015 3:51 pm : link
In comment 12114876 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
What I find so strange in all of this is that no one is screaming about the defense. The fact is that the Giants were 10th in the league in total offense in 2014, while the Dallas juggernaut led by that awesome OL was 7th - and would it surprise anyone if I told you that Romo was actually sacked MORE OFTEN - one more time anyway - than Eli despite the fact that Eli had 165 MORE pass attempts. You can look it up. On the other hand the defense was 29th and led the league in big plays allowed, was 31st in allowing first downs on 1st or 2nd down and just wasn't very good.


Colin I agree completely. I believe the offense (with the offensive line getting a FA uplift) is good enough to win now.

But I think the defense needs playmakers.

Again though I don't necessarily think that has to come from the draft.

Maybe the Giants make McCourty an offer, bring Thurmond back and Beason comes back healthy. That helps safety, MIKE and slot corner. They need a pass rusher and the D is drastically different - without using #9 on the defense.

If the Giants go defense at #9 I won't complain one bit, but I believe Reese will address the D and OL in free agency (first).
RE: Strange  
yatqb : 1/29/2015 3:54 pm : link
In comment 12114876 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
What I find so strange in all of this is that no one is screaming about the defense. The fact is that the Giants were 10th in the league in total offense in 2014, while the Dallas juggernaut led by that awesome OL was 7th - and would it surprise anyone if I told you that Romo was actually sacked MORE OFTEN - one more time anyway - than Eli despite the fact that Eli had 165 MORE pass attempts. You can look it up. On the other hand the defense was 29th and led the league in big plays allowed, was 31st in allowing first downs on 1st or 2nd down and just wasn't very good.


Colin, I have major concerns about the defense, but don't see a surefire difference-maker there at 9 unless Shelton makes it to us, and even he could be a risky pick. I also like Shaq Thompson a lot, but do we want to gamble on Spags finding ways to match him up where his speed will compensate for lack of size when we could get a surer thing at 9?

Do you see any other fits for us on defense at 9? To me guys like Beasley are really 3-4 scheme fits, and Landon Collins is just not "special" imo. I'll argue that Kenny Phillips was at least as good if not a better S prospect than him, and he went 32nd.
OL and the D  
Colin@gbn : 1/29/2015 4:00 pm : link
Cane et al: Truth be told Cane I make it a point of trying to forget any discussion I ever had with you as quickly as possible. However, I do recall the Seattle game where Lynch ran over the Giants so yeah I think you are onto something - lets fix our offensive line; makes sense to me. Fact is that Seattle is not in their 2nd straight SB because of their running game - fact is their total offense ranked all of one spot ahead of the Giants - its because they have THE best defense in the league. I rest my case. Sheesh!
RE: wrong again Terps stop using strawmen  
rsjem1979 : 1/29/2015 4:00 pm : link
In comment 12114896 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
The most important players in the two SB wins were either Marginal WR's (Tyree) or mistake prone (Manningham) that played out of their minds that day.


If you think those are the most important players in those Super Bowls, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

For one thing, Justin Tuck could have been the MVP of either one. He was a monster.

Offensively, Hakeem Nicks was the Giants biggest weapon in 46 - Patriots didn't have an answer for him.

RE: wrong again Terps stop using strawmen  
Go Terps : 1/29/2015 4:01 pm : link
In comment 12114896 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
Basketball is a completely different sport so that comparison doesn't hold up. And everyone KNEW Russell was not even close to being the player of Johnson (who still hasn't sniffed a SB yet despite a once in a generation talent BTW).

Did they have the opportunity to rebuild the OL before last year? Yep, that's part of the problem, they had numerous opportunities and blew them repeatedly reaching on players they thought had bigger upsides or similar justification. Go look up the draft write-ups, we all know the names. Hell Reese's "JPP of TE" is so talented, he's been passed on the depth chart by two undrafted free Agents.

Using Once in a generational talent as your justification doesn't excuse the stupidity of your earlier mistakes. Beckham doesn't cancel out the draft misses on Barden, Beckum, Moss, etc... The most important players in the two SB wins were either Marginal WR's (Tyree) or mistake prone (Manningham) that played out of their minds that day.

Dunedin not the same comparison because every team's situation is different. Taking Beckham away from the WR corp would hurt it yes but there's a very good chance that with both Martin and Richburg (which is what I advacoated for) would have meant a stronger Running game which also helps out.

And Colin, can you remind me about the discussion we had in the Seattle game about how the game of football has changed and it's no longer about winning in the trenches, I seem to have forgotten about that as I watched Lynch and the OL just bend our defense backwards and run them over.


Previous errors don't justify making another.

No straw man here. If Beckham were Ramses Barden you would be right. But he looks closer to Jerry Rice.

I'm going to clue you in on something else...if you asked Eli Manning himself he'd tell you Beckham was the right pick.
Defense  
Colin@gbn : 1/29/2015 4:09 pm : link
Pj/Yat et al: Indeed, that's the problem with this draft is that doesn't look like there are going to be any real potential impact prospects on defense at least at #9. As you guys noted Collins could be a very useful guy, but I don't see him as being in the Eric Thomas type mold of playmaker. Shelton is also intriguing, but as I said there are worries about his upside as a pass-rusher. There are a bunch of other guys who could move up including Shaq T who is a terrific athlete but has never been much as a pass rusher, and maybe Bud Dupree if he runs under 4.6 or so at the combine, although he is a tad light in the caboose. The guy who ust might intrigue the Giants is Beasley if he can run in the mid-4.5 area. He's always played with his hand on the ground but he's a very good athlete who could end up being a poor man's Von Miller. As I have noted putting him if TC lets Spags do his thing it would be intriguing to see Beasley and Kennard line up on the LOS with orders to get into the bakfield and disrupt. No question though its a conversion.
Colin  
Emil : 1/29/2015 4:14 pm : link
Are you bringing stats, logic, and reason to the BBI knife fight? You should know better.

I agree that OL is not as dire a need as many think, but I would like to see a more consistent running game. I think the Giants will be looking for an OG in rounds 2 or 3. I like Tomlinson from Duke, and the GMEM appear to be interested in Marpet from Hobart.
RE: Defense  
Emil : 1/29/2015 4:17 pm : link
In comment 12114937 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Pj/Yat et al: Indeed, that's the problem with this draft is that doesn't look like there are going to be any real potential impact prospects on defense at least at #9. As you guys noted Collins could be a very useful guy, but I don't see him as being in the Eric Thomas type mold of playmaker. Shelton is also intriguing, but as I said there are worries about his upside as a pass-rusher. There are a bunch of other guys who could move up including Shaq T who is a terrific athlete but has never been much as a pass rusher, and maybe Bud Dupree if he runs under 4.6 or so at the combine, although he is a tad light in the caboose. The guy who ust might intrigue the Giants is Beasley if he can run in the mid-4.5 area. He's always played with his hand on the ground but he's a very good athlete who could end up being a poor man's Von Miller. As I have noted putting him if TC lets Spags do his thing it would be intriguing to see Beasley and Kennard line up on the LOS with orders to get into the bakfield and disrupt. No question though its a conversion.


Colin, where do you see Beasley playing in a 4-3? He seems far to lite for RDE and I have no idea about his coverage ability. If he can play ROLB (both in coverage and moving forward) he would make it that much easier to move on from Williams.
Here'san article about Marpet  
cosmicj : 1/29/2015 4:20 pm : link
.
Small-school standout Ali Marpet putting tiny Hobart College on NFL radars - ( New Window )
Emil, I'm not sure that Colin said the OL isn't in need of fixing;  
yatqb : 1/29/2015 4:22 pm : link
just that the overall offense was productive despite it.

We'd help Eli AND the defense a bunch if we could develop a true running attack and dominate time of possession.

But the defense is the biggest area of concern in terms of missing parts...we will need to re-sign JPP, land another DT, perhaps 2 LBs, and at least 1 S in order to be a top 15 defense. That's a heck of a lot more than one really good OL, which is (at minimum) what the offense needs if Schwartz comes back healthy.


RE: Emil, I'm not sure that Colin said the OL isn't in need of fixing;  
Emil : 1/29/2015 4:28 pm : link
In comment 12114951 yatqb said:
Quote:
just that the overall offense was productive despite it.

We'd help Eli AND the defense a bunch if we could develop a true running attack and dominate time of possession.

But the defense is the biggest area of concern in terms of missing parts...we will need to re-sign JPP, land another DT, perhaps 2 LBs, and at least 1 S in order to be a top 15 defense. That's a heck of a lot more than one really good OL, which is (at minimum) what the offense needs if Schwartz comes back healthy.



Oh I never said he did. I think he is just saying that it doesn't "require" a 1st round pick as many on this site think.

I agree with everything you just posted. The running game needs to be more consistent and that is an indictment of the line play, but I think upgrading the OG position (specifically LG) does that. If you move Pugh there, then you get a RT in FA. If Pugh stays at RT I would sign a OG in FA and draft one as well.

The defense absolutely needs more playmakers. Aside from JPP, no one on that front 7 scares anyone. Hankins had a good year, but he is not a disruptive pass rusher, despite his 6 sacks. Kennard is a nice young LOLB, but I'm not ready to anoint him yet. Drafting a disruptive player in the front 7 makes total sense, I just don't know who that player is at #9. I like Randy Gregory and Leonard Williams a great deal, but they ain't making it out of the top 5.
Colin  
BigBlueCane : 1/29/2015 4:32 pm : link
I'm pretty sure Seattle's running game is a big reason why they're in position to win a Second straight SB run. I could be wrong about that but I don't think so.

Terps, The irony in your statement is that Reese is poised to do exactly that by neglecting again in favor of another 'playmaker' despite history telling everyone to do likewise is insanity.

Maybe Beckham is Jerry Rice, I don't think he is, I think he'll need to mature quite a bit before attempting that comparison. And regardless, him being on the field doesn't put John Jerry on the bench which is still a major negative.
Fix the OLL and build a good team, and maybe the 'transgenerational' talent this is Odell Beckham will get his chance to wear a ring.

Otherwise he gets to join a long list of supremely talented players, arguably amongst the most gifted athletes every to play the game at their position who didn't because they didn't have good enough teams around them to help. And that would be shame regardless of your feelings on the matter.
Emil, sorry if I misunderstood you.  
yatqb : 1/29/2015 5:02 pm : link
To me it's a good argument for shelling out some big dough to JPP, to Suh or Paea, and to McCourty.

Re-sign Eli, free up cap space, and get some of those guys in their primes to beef up the D. That allows us to go in any direction in the 1st round.
Clarification  
Colin@gbn : 1/29/2015 5:05 pm : link
Just to clarify my position such as it on the offensive line; there is no question that that group still needs some work. In particular, you just aren't going very far with the likes of Walton and Jerry at C and G. Indeed, you need at least one more solid starter at C/G and at least one more G/T for depth (if not a couple). But as a general rule you can find those types of pieces in free agency (and just because it didn't work with Walton and Jerry doesn't mean you don't keep trying). In addition, you can never ever go into a season assuming that a rookie will be ready to start so even if the Giants did take an OL at this year's draft they are still almost forced to sign a veteran or two just in case. I also would not rule out the Giants taking an OL with their top pick, but IF a) an OL was the only player left in their top level when they got on the clock at #9; or b) if they literally threw up their collective hands and said there won't be much at #9 on either defense or the skill positions on offense so why don't we just suck it up an take an OL and see if we can fix the OL once and for all and indeed adding a guy like Scherff wouldn't be the worst thing that ever happened to the franchise. However, I would be very surprised if the Giants went into the draft targeting the OL from the get-go as they did with CB in 2001, the DL in 2003, DBs in 2007 and WR in 2009.

At the same time, I confess as I did above that I have no idea who the Giants are going to take with their opening round. My guess is that even the Giants don't have much of an idea who their final pick will be at this point. But I do mocks for a living and had to take someone when I got to #9. And I certainly don't think that the Giants are going to go to the draft planning to draft a WR per se with their top pick. We've heard from more than one of our sources that they think that Parker would have been a top 5 lock this year if he hadn't been injured.

The bottom line, though, is that as Dave Sy has preached on more than one occasion the one thing you can take to the bank when the Giants get on the clock is that they will stay true to their board. As such, the real trick to figuring out their draft at this point is to try and figure out which players are going to be in their top row rather than howling at the moon about this or that player or position that they "just have to take" or coversely will never take.
BBC, you really have no idea what Reese is going to do at 9.  
yatqb : 1/29/2015 5:11 pm : link
None of us do. When Reese talked about an OG vs. a playmaker he was talking Martin Vs. Beckham, not about this year's draft. He's a guy who doesn't show his cards too often, and frankly typically drafts for need. Each playmaker he drafted in Rd. 1 was a need guy (the CBs, WRs and DEs, for example,and even Wilson, I'd suggest). But so were Pugh, Beatty, Richburg, Hankins and Joseph. I recognize that there is only one 1st rounder in that group, but the others were 2s.
RE: Clarification  
pjcas18 : 1/29/2015 5:21 pm : link
In comment 12115024 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Just to clarify my position such as it on the offensive line; there is no question that that group still needs some work. In particular, you just aren't going very far with the likes of Walton and Jerry at C and G. Indeed, you need at least one more solid starter at C/G and at least one more G/T for depth (if not a couple). But as a general rule you can find those types of pieces in free agency (and just because it didn't work with Walton and Jerry doesn't mean you don't keep trying). In addition, you can never ever go into a season assuming that a rookie will be ready to start so even if the Giants did take an OL at this year's draft they are still almost forced to sign a veteran or two just in case. I also would not rule out the Giants taking an OL with their top pick, but IF a) an OL was the only player left in their top level when they got on the clock at #9; or b) if they literally threw up their collective hands and said there won't be much at #9 on either defense or the skill positions on offense so why don't we just suck it up an take an OL and see if we can fix the OL once and for all and indeed adding a guy like Scherff wouldn't be the worst thing that ever happened to the franchise. However, I would be very surprised if the Giants went into the draft targeting the OL from the get-go as they did with CB in 2001, the DL in 2003, DBs in 2007 and WR in 2009.

At the same time, I confess as I did above that I have no idea who the Giants are going to take with their opening round. My guess is that even the Giants don't have much of an idea who their final pick will be at this point. But I do mocks for a living and had to take someone when I got to #9. And I certainly don't think that the Giants are going to go to the draft planning to draft a WR per se with their top pick. We've heard from more than one of our sources that they think that Parker would have been a top 5 lock this year if he hadn't been injured.

The bottom line, though, is that as Dave Sy has preached on more than one occasion the one thing you can take to the bank when the Giants get on the clock is that they will stay true to their board. As such, the real trick to figuring out their draft at this point is to try and figure out which players are going to be in their top row rather than howling at the moon about this or that player or position that they "just have to take" or coversely will never take.


It took me a while Colin to come around and appreciate your perspective and expertise, but looking back at history and commentary (from Reese and others) I believe this is 100% spot on.

Best post I've read in a long time.
If we go Wr in one  
jLefty : 1/29/2015 5:34 pm : link
it doesn't mean he's the best player available. It means we have a great passer who needs not just Beckham but someone so good that they can't completely focus on Odell. It would mean that they don't feel confident that Cruz will return to his old form..
From the little I saw of him I think Peat needs to get stronger  
#10* : 1/29/2015 6:00 pm : link
and needs some good coaching on technique. The desire needs to be there most of all. A year in the weight room can help his cause. Peat @ LT and Beatty @ RT makes alot of since. That would fix the guard situation with Pugh and Schwartz inside. Also gives some flexibility on the line.
Emil, I like Kevin White better than Parker, btw.  
yatqb : 1/29/2015 9:11 pm : link
I think he's gonna be great. I guess the 40 times will tell us more.
The defense needs a talent infusion worse than the offense now  
JonC : 1/30/2015 9:41 am : link
but it doesn't appear any help will surface at #9, unless Dupree lights it up or they decide one of the situational edge rushers is too talented to pass up.
Peat needs to work on his footwork and conditioning  
JonC : 1/30/2015 9:45 am : link
He starts to run out of gas, his movement and footwork fails, he starts grabbing at defenders and falling down, as Phil noted.

He's not Ogden II, but he's my LT target.
I still dont understand why so many are fixated on a LT  
blueblood : 1/30/2015 10:09 am : link
when our issues are at the guard position. We dont need to draft a tackle and them move Pugh to guard.. We need to just draft a guard.. period..

and based on the youtube clips I have seen I like White better than Parker..
RE: Peat needs to work on his footwork and conditioning  
Coach Mason : 1/30/2015 10:17 am : link
In comment 12115643 JonC said:
Quote:
He starts to run out of gas, his movement and footwork fails, he starts grabbing at defenders and falling down, as Phil noted.

He's not Ogden II, but he's my LT target.


He's flashed 'Ogden-like' ability in shutting down some amazing edge rushers like Anthony Barr who he absolutely dominated. But then has been beaten badly a couple times too (especially this year). If the Giants think it's mostly correctable stuff and they can get him to play to his immense potential with consistency, then he's worth the pick for sure.

I honestly think the kid is just growing up and CAN become a dominant 'near-Ogden' NFL LT. The way this kid plays when the 'light bulb' is on is a sight to behold.
I dont get the fixation with the first round  
idiotsavant : 1/30/2015 10:17 am : link
.
RE: I still dont understand why so many are fixated on a LT  
Coach Mason : 1/30/2015 10:18 am : link
In comment 12115683 blueblood said:
Quote:
when our issues are at the guard position. We dont need to draft a tackle and them move Pugh to guard.. We need to just draft a guard.. period..

and based on the youtube clips I have seen I like White better than Parker..


I like White too but I can see why the Giants may like Parker more. Parker has more sloppiness to his game but he cleaned some of that up this year and has the higher overall upside.
blood  
JonC : 1/30/2015 10:19 am : link
In the draft, your perspective should be a) longer term and b) maximizing the talent you pick.

If OG is that urgent, they'll sign via UFA.

Btw, the team views RT as more urgent than OG.
and they want to kick Pugh inside  
JonC : 1/30/2015 10:20 am : link
read between the lines on Reese's recent comments. They want a better RT, and when you're picking #9 in a draft where LT might be your best player you grab him and start preparing the release papers for Beatty in '16.
I'd like to see them nip the OL in the bud through FA.  
Curtis in VA : 1/30/2015 10:22 am : link
If that holds true, a WR or DE sounds good to me.
RE: blood  
Klaatu : 1/30/2015 10:24 am : link
In comment 12115698 JonC said:
Quote:
In the draft, your perspective should be a) longer term and b) maximizing the talent you pick.

If OG is that urgent, they'll sign via UFA.

Btw, the team views RT as more urgent than OG.


Rogers Gaines, bitches!
RE: I dont get the fixation with the first round  
pjcas18 : 1/30/2015 10:27 am : link
In comment 12115695 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
.


Is this a serious comment?
RE: blood  
blueblood : 1/30/2015 10:35 am : link
In comment 12115698 JonC said:
Quote:
In the draft, your perspective should be a) longer term and b) maximizing the talent you pick.

If OG is that urgent, they'll sign via UFA.

Btw, the team views RT as more urgent than OG.


JonC I totally get that.. You always have to think long term and maximizing the talent you pick.. totally true.. but IMO you dont spend a top ten pick on a RT or a G.. And I dont know if any of these LT's are worth a top ten pick.. a top ten LT to me is not a guy who needs work.. or needs to clean up all his issue.. IMO a top ten LT is step in and start DAY ONE period..

And in the Giants case I dont see the purpose in drafting a LT to play him at RT and them move Pugh to G a position he as never played so that in two years you can them move that RT to LT.. Thats not a line fix to me.. that creating a constant game of musical chairs.

I keep saying that a OL is as much about cohesiveness and continuity.. why was our OL so good from 2007-2010.. it wasnt just the talent.. it was because they played together and developed cohesion..

I have no dog in the fight.. I just want them to get the best player they can.. This year the #1 pick has to be a step in and start DAY ONE impact player.. You dont get top ten picks very often.. or at least you shouldnt.. unfortunately this looks a very very red chip draft..
I have no issue with drafting a day 1 RT at #9  
drkenneth : 1/30/2015 10:50 am : link
Who will take over for Beatty at LT at some point. Happens all the time. Ever hear of Tyron Smith? Greg Robinson?

I recognize many fans tend to make the mistake  
JonC : 1/30/2015 10:50 am : link
of thinking a Peat might be relatively equal to a blue chip LT picked a year ago, for example.

Peat is the only LT I see potentially worthy at #9, he is a day 1 starter and plenty good enough. I know others really like Collins and/or Scherff, but they're RTs in my book and I'd pass at #9 unless they're clearly BPA (which I doubt, and Reese confirmed his philosophy in plain English regarding playmakers over certain OL).

Musical chairs is often part of the unit growing pains, and frequently unavoidable, in part, because the salary cap and player contracts are a component/constraint in the overall process.

It is what it is, if Peat is the best player at #9, he makes complete sense to me. Beatty is serviceable at LT, as Pugh is at RT, but BOTH are ultimately upgradeable and you need to leap at the few chances to get to do so.


Peat's physical ability is top-notch  
Coach Mason : 1/30/2015 11:24 am : link
Andrus has proven he can absolutely engulf and neutralize some damn good pass rushers and he did it very quickly/early in his college career at LT. This is strictly a light bulb kid. If the Giants believe they can keep that bulb turned 'on' then they have themselves a perennial pro-bowl LT IMO.
RE: A great OLine will make everyone better  
djm : 1/30/2015 12:29 pm : link
In comment 12113510 JohnB said:
Quote:
It will make Cruz and Randle better
It will make the RBs better.
It will make Eli better.
It will even make OBJ better.

No WR can do all that.

Go OLine in the 1st.



Beckham did just that and more. He single-handedly transformed the NYG offense in 2014. It was bad in the beginning of the year. Functional at worst and even good down the stretch. Beckham was the biggest reason why.

Draft talent with some exceptions... Don't draft positions.
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