it might get long. At least, the split will be more ideologically predictable, I think, because the science is so intertwined with economics and that's not the case with MMR.
it took a beating when it was called Global Warming.Made it too easy for the anti science crowd on a freezing day in winter in the cold weather states to scoff at Global Warming
a political standpoint. Everyone, at least at first prior to all the blowback, was rushing to take the libertarian stance on this - but its not the popular view to have on this issue. Vaccines are kind of like the political smell test to see what politicians are willing to pander shamelessly even in the face of science. Rand Paul and Chris Christie each failed miserably.
RE: This whole vaccination thing has been very interesting from Â
a political standpoint. Everyone, at least at first prior to all the blowback, was rushing to take the libertarian stance on this - but its not the popular view to have on this issue. Vaccines are kind of like the political smell test to see what politicians are willing to pander shamelessly even in the face of science. Rand Paul and Chris Christie each failed miserably.
MS and WV do not allow philosophical or religious exemptions, and as a result those two states have some of the highest vaccination rates in the country. They may have a problem with fat and diabetes, but they are leading the way in this particular area. CA is now considering joining that front, which I wholeheartedly endorse. link - ( New Window )
areas of discussion here I have been one of the more libertarian voices putting my opinions out there for the pubic of BBI to dissect, so I'm not sure I feel comfortable with some of what I have been reading here.
I actually agree with public vaccination policy. It's proven science, and although it does come dangerously close to lines in the sand that I would rather the government not be able to cross when it comes to the rights of the individual to decide for themselves how best to pursue their own aims, including the ares of health and personal wellbeing, I feel like robust vaccination policy is in the best interest of country and society at large, and while forced medicine by and large is something to be avoided, this issue falls on the line of the sand of public good.
Many libertarians, if you like the label, feel that way, by the way
blind ideology is destructive. The basic idea of a forced medical treatment of any kind would generally go against libertarian ideals, but many of us are thinking, rational people, who come to our views for a reason.
We are not all anti-science, paranoid whatever...................
Children should be vaccinated. There should be high standards as to which vaccinations should be mandated, and it should be a process of validation under perpetual and thorough review as like minded people such as myself entrust the powers that be to walk that fine line in the area of public good.
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
More unoriginal Asian stereotype joke...but this time by a head of state (Argentina).
Quote:
Embattled Argentine President Cristina Fernandez, while on a state visit to China seeking badly needed investment, caused a furor Wednesday by joking about her hosts' accents on Twitter.
Fernandez tried to mimic a Chinese accent by switching "r's" with "l's" in a tweet in Spanish that translates as: "Did they only come for lice and petloleum."
A few minutes later, she added: "Sorry, the levels of ridiculousness and absurdity are so high they can only be digested with humor."
The tweets came as she met with Chinese President Xi Jinping.
As of late Wednesday, there was no official response from China about the comments by Fernandez, a prolific tweeter who has 3.53 million followers.
But that didn't stop the Twitterverse in the South American country and beyond from exploding with criticism of what many considered a racist tweet.
"Cristina Fernandez's lack of tack and respect is incredible," wrote @FaundezLafarga. "She goes to China looking for (economic) agreements and she makes fun of their accents."
@GuyChazan wrote: "Faux pas in China. Really, this sort of joke went out of fashion in the 70s."
Rather a moronic thing to do during your visit to an Asian nation that you are seeking investments from. Link - ( New Window )
Really, this sort of joke went out of fashion in the 70s." Â
Did it go out of fashion? Or did it lose its racist bite? It's a silly joke that people tell at the expense of Asian immigrants...sort of like the whole dogs and cats for dinner joke that gets thrown around every once in a while. In the end, they're dumb and silly but nothing to get all worked up about.
Hopefully you don't suffer from the half-blind yellow fever that a lot of people seem to suffer from. Sheesh...have you seen some of the ugly Asian chicks that non-Asian people date?
Hopefully you don't suffer from the half-blind yellow fever that a lot of people seem to suffer from. Sheesh...have you seen some of the ugly Asian chicks that non-Asian people date?
that's a position that has been espoused by numerous politicians of all stripes before, it has become well nigh untenable now because of the outbreak but depending on how it is phrased (you could permit parental choice but make access to certain services - eg public school - contingent on the choices they make) I don't think it is manifestly unreasonable.
What Paul said was much worse, and from a man who should know better.
Elected officials are swayed by people and money and insert themselves into scientific questions to the detriment of public health. We have that issue in NYS where there's this huge and vocal group that have hoodwinked politicians to force the state to allow some wacky and potentially dangerous treatments for a vague syndrome that they attribute to Lyme Disease. They're moving on to Congress in the form of a couple Congressmen here who they've convinced to advocate for them. Scientists and infectious disease docs are upset but they are, by nature, sucky advocates and do not play the political game well. Point being, politicians don't know science but they do impact it.
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
Ronnie, ever hear about the Chinese guy at the eye doctor? Â
The doctor told him "I found out what the problem is. You have cataracts." The Chinese guy says "I don't have cataract, I drive a Rincoln Continental."
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
There's lots of vaccines...do you make them all mandatory? Yearly flu shots? Any and every? Who decides?
It's not easy at least for me to say the gov't can force a foreign substance into your body. Even though I think that people who don't choose it on their own are irresponsible dumbasses. So maybe non-vaccinators from all human/public contact is unenforceable...although it works for schools. But most people, I think, will do what the laws say so even an unenforceable law would likely catch most people and the herd should take care of those who flout it.
RE: Ronnie, ever hear about the Chinese guy at the eye doctor? Â
The doctor told him "I found out what the problem is. You have cataracts." The Chinese guy says "I don't have cataract, I drive a Rincoln Continental."
and other workers at our local hospital who refuse to get a flu shot. That's crazy and irresponsible, IMO, especially considering that these are people who should be trained enough to know better. But the hospital has a rule that those who don't get the shot have to wear a mask while at work or dealing with the public. It's a compromise that doesn't include mandatory vaccination but does help to protect public health and I believe they get pretty good compliance.
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
There's lots of vaccines...do you make them all mandatory? Yearly flu shots? Any and every? Who decides?
It's not easy at least for me to say the gov't can force a foreign substance into your body. Even though I think that people who don't choose it on their own are irresponsible dumbasses. So maybe non-vaccinators from all human/public contact is unenforceable...although it works for schools. But most people, I think, will do what the laws say so even an unenforceable law would likely catch most people and the herd should take care of those who flout it.
Those are very serious and legitimate concerns, concerns I share. As I said earlier, the process by which vaccines are adopted into any sort of mandatory program must be under public scrutiny, and under constant evaluation. I will never be fully comfortable with the idea of a government telling it's people what medical procedures they must follow through with as part of some social contract, but when it comes to vaccines I think it makes sense for me to budge on this issue. With the cavaet that great care must be taken to controll the process
the role of the Internet in driving false ideas, bad research, and dangerous responses. The initial study, as noted below, was on 12 children. That's right, 12. And also of noted, there is a time correlation between vaccines and the onset of autism: Autism tends to show symptoms within a could of years after the age of the vaccine recipients. The same correlation can be made against beginning to crawl or walk.
Quote:
In 1998, Andrew Wakefield and 12 of his colleagues[1] published a case series in the Lancet, which suggested that the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine may predispose to behavioral regression and pervasive developmental disorder in children. Despite the small sample size (n=12), the uncontrolled design, and the speculative nature of the conclusions, the paper received wide publicity, and MMR vaccination rates began to drop because parents were concerned about the risk of autism after vaccination.[2]
Almost immediately afterward, epidemiological studies were conducted and published, refuting the posited link between MMR vaccination and autism.[3,4] The logic that the MMR vaccine may trigger autism was also questioned because a temporal link between the two is almost predestined: both events, by design (MMR vaccine) or definition (autism), occur in early childhood.
The next episode in the saga was a short retraction of the interpretation of the original data by 10 of the 12 co-authors of the paper. According to the retraction, “no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient”.[5] This was accompanied by an admission by the Lancet that Wakefield et al.[1] had failed to disclose financial interests (e.g., Wakefield had been funded by lawyers who had been engaged by parents in lawsuits against vaccine-producing companies). However, the Lancet exonerated Wakefield and his colleagues from charges of ethical violations and scientific misconduct.[6]
The Lancet completely retracted the Wakefield et al.[1] paper in February 2010, admitting that several elements in the paper were incorrect, contrary to the findings of the earlier investigation.[7] Wakefield et al.[1] were held guilty of ethical violations (they had conducted invasive investigations on the children without obtaining the necessary ethical clearances) and scientific misrepresentation (they reported that their sampling was consecutive when, in fact, it was selective). This retraction was published as a small, anonymous paragraph in the journal, on behalf of the editors.[8]
The final episode in the saga is the revelation that Wakefield et al.[1] were guilty of deliberate fraud (they picked and chose data that suited their case; they falsified facts).[9] The British Medical Journal has published a series of articles on the exposure of the fraud, which appears to have taken place for financial gain.[10–13] It is a matter of concern that the exposé was a result of journalistic investigation, rather than academic vigilance followed by the institution of corrective measures...[14]
Sorry for the length, put it makes some essential points.
And by the way, there is a wonderful opportunity for follow-up journalism/books here: The number of so-called health professionals who continue to use the Wakefield study as the case for non-Vaxx, and the number of them that flat-out lie in their work either about the status of the study or the purported existence alleged follow-up studies confirming the results.
There are hoaxes, hucksterism, fraud and flat out lying for the purpose of making a living going on here. Some so-called health professionals need to be charged with fraud. A well-publicized trial over the facts would kill this thing, right quick. Link - ( New Window )
Public health officials are investigating a “cluster of measles” at a KinderCare Learning Center in northwest suburban Chicago.
According to the Cook County Department of Public Heath, five infants at the Palatine day care may have measles. Diagnoses for two children were confirmed and test results for three remaining cases are pending, though those cases were diagnosed based on clinical and epidemiological criteria, officials said.
Health officials said the five children are all under the age of one. continued - ( New Window )
vaccines can and should be mandated, if that's the direction you want to go in.
You can look at the efficacy rates of the vaccines themselves on something other than an annual basis. You can look at the ability of the disease itself to mutate, which lessens the reliability of any vaccine. You can look at a cost-effectiveness ratio. You can look at some measure of quality-adjusted life years (QALY's, DALY's, DALE's).
You can also look at the target populations. Vaccines mandated for children that are effective (which doesn't include the flu) extends life by a lot and is highly effective. The same vaccines for older cohorts may not be mandatory.
that has debunked a proven vaccine for any disease since the onset of 20th century?Is there a hero out there or a group of heroes that proved that say whopping cough vaccine did not work or the side effects outweighed the benefit?
Sure, there are vaccines that are not very effective Â
flu was just mentioned. Although, you do really get some protection from this year's vaccine depending on the flu strain you might be infected with. There are also individuals who do not get adequate protection from a given vaccine.
that has debunked a proven vaccine for any disease since the onset of 20th century?Is there a hero out there or a group of heroes that proved that say whopping cough vaccine did not work or the side effects outweighed the benefit?
BCG for TB. Not a true vaccine, granted, but it has been given to hundreds of millions of kids, mostly via mandate, with no real benefit.
Thats a problem with regulations: someone has to set them. And they are never perfect. Since it involves our little Johnnie's it will always be heated.
Guardisil is a proven vaccine against HPV that causes cervix cancer, the mostly deadly gynecologic cancer in the world. It is not well received because it has to be given to girls (or boys) before they become sexually active. In many cultures, parents can't accept that concept for their little Suzie.
This article warns that many adults should get vaccinated again Â
or with the weather
or the audience.
MS and WV do not allow philosophical or religious exemptions, and as a result those two states have some of the highest vaccination rates in the country. They may have a problem with fat and diabetes, but they are leading the way in this particular area. CA is now considering joining that front, which I wholeheartedly endorse.
link - ( New Window )
I actually agree with public vaccination policy. It's proven science, and although it does come dangerously close to lines in the sand that I would rather the government not be able to cross when it comes to the rights of the individual to decide for themselves how best to pursue their own aims, including the ares of health and personal wellbeing, I feel like robust vaccination policy is in the best interest of country and society at large, and while forced medicine by and large is something to be avoided, this issue falls on the line of the sand of public good.
Many libertarians, if you like the label, feel that way, by the way
We are not all anti-science, paranoid whatever...................
Children should be vaccinated. There should be high standards as to which vaccinations should be mandated, and it should be a process of validation under perpetual and thorough review as like minded people such as myself entrust the powers that be to walk that fine line in the area of public good.
Fernandez tried to mimic a Chinese accent by switching "r's" with "l's" in a tweet in Spanish that translates as: "Did they only come for lice and petloleum."
A few minutes later, she added: "Sorry, the levels of ridiculousness and absurdity are so high they can only be digested with humor."
The tweets came as she met with Chinese President Xi Jinping.
As of late Wednesday, there was no official response from China about the comments by Fernandez, a prolific tweeter who has 3.53 million followers.
But that didn't stop the Twitterverse in the South American country and beyond from exploding with criticism of what many considered a racist tweet.
"Cristina Fernandez's lack of tack and respect is incredible," wrote @FaundezLafarga. "She goes to China looking for (economic) agreements and she makes fun of their accents."
@GuyChazan wrote: "Faux pas in China. Really, this sort of joke went out of fashion in the 70s."
Rather a moronic thing to do during your visit to an Asian nation that you are seeking investments from.
Link - ( New Window )
Did it go out of fashion? Or did it lose its racist bite? It's a silly joke that people tell at the expense of Asian immigrants...sort of like the whole dogs and cats for dinner joke that gets thrown around every once in a while. In the end, they're dumb and silly but nothing to get all worked up about.
I don't know, in 1976 Peter Sellers did it in Murder By Death and it was still pretty funny.
Hopefully you don't suffer from the half-blind yellow fever that a lot of people seem to suffer from. Sheesh...have you seen some of the ugly Asian chicks that non-Asian people date?
Quote:
I got Yellow fever brah
Hopefully you don't suffer from the half-blind yellow fever that a lot of people seem to suffer from. Sheesh...have you seen some of the ugly Asian chicks that non-Asian people date?
How can they tell? Don't we all look alike?
Dude...you're going to get a lecture from HH for being so insensitive, you racist jerk.
What Paul said was much worse, and from a man who should know better.
Hahaha...This made me laugh.
It definitely is...I have to give you that.
Link - ( New Window )
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
That was from Uncle Junior.
Quote:
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
There's lots of vaccines...do you make them all mandatory? Yearly flu shots? Any and every? Who decides?
It's not easy at least for me to say the gov't can force a foreign substance into your body. Even though I think that people who don't choose it on their own are irresponsible dumbasses. So maybe non-vaccinators from all human/public contact is unenforceable...although it works for schools. But most people, I think, will do what the laws say so even an unenforceable law would likely catch most people and the herd should take care of those who flout it.
That was from Uncle Junior.
Haha...well, this Asian has a Cadirac.
Quote:
In comment 12124750 Headhunter said:
Quote:
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
There's lots of vaccines...do you make them all mandatory? Yearly flu shots? Any and every? Who decides?
It's not easy at least for me to say the gov't can force a foreign substance into your body. Even though I think that people who don't choose it on their own are irresponsible dumbasses. So maybe non-vaccinators from all human/public contact is unenforceable...although it works for schools. But most people, I think, will do what the laws say so even an unenforceable law would likely catch most people and the herd should take care of those who flout it.
Those are very serious and legitimate concerns, concerns I share. As I said earlier, the process by which vaccines are adopted into any sort of mandatory program must be under public scrutiny, and under constant evaluation. I will never be fully comfortable with the idea of a government telling it's people what medical procedures they must follow through with as part of some social contract, but when it comes to vaccines I think it makes sense for me to budge on this issue. With the cavaet that great care must be taken to controll the process
Quote:
when Jerry Lewis slanted his eyes and kept on repeating me so solly. Come up with something newer than a bit from the '60's
I don't know, in 1976 Peter Sellers did it in Murder By Death and it was still pretty funny.
Sidney Wang: It is late, and my eyes are getting tired.
Sam Diamond: I thought they always looked like that.
Jessica Marbles: Knock it off, Sam!
Sam Diamond: I apologize. This case is getting to me. I'm sorry, Slanty.
Sidney Wang: Um... thank you.
In 1998, Andrew Wakefield and 12 of his colleagues[1] published a case series in the Lancet, which suggested that the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine may predispose to behavioral regression and pervasive developmental disorder in children. Despite the small sample size (n=12), the uncontrolled design, and the speculative nature of the conclusions, the paper received wide publicity, and MMR vaccination rates began to drop because parents were concerned about the risk of autism after vaccination.[2]
Almost immediately afterward, epidemiological studies were conducted and published, refuting the posited link between MMR vaccination and autism.[3,4] The logic that the MMR vaccine may trigger autism was also questioned because a temporal link between the two is almost predestined: both events, by design (MMR vaccine) or definition (autism), occur in early childhood.
The next episode in the saga was a short retraction of the interpretation of the original data by 10 of the 12 co-authors of the paper. According to the retraction, “no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient”.[5] This was accompanied by an admission by the Lancet that Wakefield et al.[1] had failed to disclose financial interests (e.g., Wakefield had been funded by lawyers who had been engaged by parents in lawsuits against vaccine-producing companies). However, the Lancet exonerated Wakefield and his colleagues from charges of ethical violations and scientific misconduct.[6]
The Lancet completely retracted the Wakefield et al.[1] paper in February 2010, admitting that several elements in the paper were incorrect, contrary to the findings of the earlier investigation.[7] Wakefield et al.[1] were held guilty of ethical violations (they had conducted invasive investigations on the children without obtaining the necessary ethical clearances) and scientific misrepresentation (they reported that their sampling was consecutive when, in fact, it was selective). This retraction was published as a small, anonymous paragraph in the journal, on behalf of the editors.[8]
The final episode in the saga is the revelation that Wakefield et al.[1] were guilty of deliberate fraud (they picked and chose data that suited their case; they falsified facts).[9] The British Medical Journal has published a series of articles on the exposure of the fraud, which appears to have taken place for financial gain.[10–13] It is a matter of concern that the exposé was a result of journalistic investigation, rather than academic vigilance followed by the institution of corrective measures...[14]
Sorry for the length, put it makes some essential points.
And by the way, there is a wonderful opportunity for follow-up journalism/books here: The number of so-called health professionals who continue to use the Wakefield study as the case for non-Vaxx, and the number of them that flat-out lie in their work either about the status of the study or the purported existence alleged follow-up studies confirming the results.
There are hoaxes, hucksterism, fraud and flat out lying for the purpose of making a living going on here. Some so-called health professionals need to be charged with fraud. A well-publicized trial over the facts would kill this thing, right quick.
Link - ( New Window )
According to the Cook County Department of Public Heath, five infants at the Palatine day care may have measles. Diagnoses for two children were confirmed and test results for three remaining cases are pending, though those cases were diagnosed based on clinical and epidemiological criteria, officials said.
Health officials said the five children are all under the age of one.
continued - ( New Window )
You can look at the efficacy rates of the vaccines themselves on something other than an annual basis. You can look at the ability of the disease itself to mutate, which lessens the reliability of any vaccine. You can look at a cost-effectiveness ratio. You can look at some measure of quality-adjusted life years (QALY's, DALY's, DALE's).
You can also look at the target populations. Vaccines mandated for children that are effective (which doesn't include the flu) extends life by a lot and is highly effective. The same vaccines for older cohorts may not be mandatory.
BCG for TB. Not a true vaccine, granted, but it has been given to hundreds of millions of kids, mostly via mandate, with no real benefit.
Thats a problem with regulations: someone has to set them. And they are never perfect. Since it involves our little Johnnie's it will always be heated.
Guardisil is a proven vaccine against HPV that causes cervix cancer, the mostly deadly gynecologic cancer in the world. It is not well received because it has to be given to girls (or boys) before they become sexually active. In many cultures, parents can't accept that concept for their little Suzie.
Why Many Adults Should Get Their Measles Shot — Again - ( New Window )