Massachusetts has a law that you CANNOT even register your child for school unless you present evidence of immunization against a whole list of diseases (or proof from a licensed physician that immunizing your child would jeopardize their health due to some disease).
doesn't every state have similar laws?
or are these home schooled kids with parents against it?
Just not sure who the people are against it other than individualized whackos.
RE: What's with the sudden measles vaccination uproar? Â
Is it this year's cause for people to rally behind?
The fairly large and growing outbreak of measles that started in Disneyland CA? It's been in the news recently, the extraordinary return of an eradicated deadly illness because people are stupid.
RE: What's with the sudden measles vaccination uproar? Â
it's less the internet and more people who have autistic children who put the fear in you.
when our daughter was ready for her MMR, of course we had friends of family saying "John's daughter was normal until they had that shot.. I heard the same was for Jane's son" and so on.
that struck fear in my wife. we went through with the shots, but it resulted in a very long conversation with our pediatrician on the chemistry of the shots.
My wife felt strongly..or at least SAFER if we could split the shots into 3 shots instead of a "cocktail" of shots. We couldn't, so of course we went through with it.
I was pissed off when these people would put thoughts into my wife's head.. shame on THEM for trying to put our daughters health in jeopardy by talking about something they know nothing about.
to vaccinations in CA, and that opened up a big old can of stupid. According to the CDC, there are only two states that do not have either religious and/or philosophical exemption policies - MS and WV. The latter form is the most egregious as it means damn near any reason can be used, and those exist in AZ, AR, CA, CO, ID, LA, ME, MI, MN, NM, ND, OH, OK, PA, TX, UT, VT, WA, and WI. So there's potential for this elsewhere too. Joy. /sarc
young mothers into second-guessing things that we used to take as gospel, and for good reason. Younger people are more skeptical because they don't remember what it was like burying siblings and classmates for diseases that don't exist now.
"Well, now that I've been wearing a raincoat whenever it rains, I haven't gotten wet in over a decade. It's probably time to stop wearing that raincoat now. It's obvious there's no need since I haven't been wet in the rain for so long."
Massachusetts has a law that you CANNOT even register your child for school unless you present evidence of immunization against a whole list of diseases (or proof from a licensed physician that immunizing your child would jeopardize their health due to some disease).
doesn't every state have similar laws?
or are these home schooled kids with parents against it?
Just not sure who the people are against it other than individualized whackos.
I think there's a law in New York State against unimmunized children attending public school on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays; but I could be confusing that with the law against driving with a conscious moose on your front fender.
"Well, now that I've been wearing a raincoat whenever it rains, I haven't gotten wet in over a decade. It's probably time to stop wearing that raincoat now. It's obvious there's no need since I haven't been wet in the rain for so long."
But there is a legitimate concern about when/how often vaccines are dispensed. For example, my son arrived six weeks early. He was given the MMR shot soon after he was born and had a horrible reaction to it. For three days, he had a fever and just moaned. It scared the hell out of us. Some pediatricians who are very pro-vaccine argue that the MMR shouldn't be given so soon or have issues with the combination being introduced at the same time.
Other pediatricians wonder if booster shots are truly needed if the titer count shows that they are unnecessary.
As someone who has worked closely with pharmaceutical lobbyists, I can tell you that they do everything in their power to sweep under the rug vaccine-related incidents, not only in the United States, but in other countries. We're being lobbied hard right now to pressure the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare to downplay a recent vaccine-related death.
I heard a statistically that a large portion of anti-vaxxers are usually well educated and Â
Financially comfortable people. These twits seem to way overestimate their own knowledge of vaccinations and diseases based on their shitty research that depends solely on shitty websites, conspiracy theories, and their live for celebrity gossip.
If you YouTube search anti-vaxxer videos, you would want to punch each of those idiots in the face through your screen.
But there is a legitimate concern about when/how often vaccines are dispensed. For example, my son arrived six weeks early. He was given the MMR shot soon after he was born and had a horrible reaction to it. For three days, he had a fever and just moaned. It scared the hell out of us. Some pediatricians who are very pro-vaccine argue that the MMR shouldn't be given so soon or have issues with the combination being introduced at the same time.
Other pediatricians wonder if booster shots are truly needed if the titer count shows that they are unnecessary.
As someone who has worked closely with pharmaceutical lobbyists, I can tell you that they do everything in their power to sweep under the rug vaccine-related incidents, not only in the United States, but in other countries. We're being lobbied hard right now to pressure the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare to downplay a recent vaccine-related death.
Our son (first child) was born five weeks early and they wanted to do the same. We refused and said we would wait until he was a little stronger and bring him back for it and I can tell you they put unbearable pressure on you if you try and do that. If I hadn't been mid forties with a lot of "life's experience" I would have not been confident enough to withstand it alone like that. They really made me to feel like I was doing some horrid thing and when that didn't work they tried to financial pressure me by saying how much additional they would charge me to take him home and return instead of allowing it to be part of the birth cost which I of course had already paid for.
Thanks goodness I was so much older and not the age of most first time fathers who easily may have been less sure of himself and more likely to follow authority when pressured so strongly, or financially strapped like so many first time parent often find themselves because our son ended up having troubles from being so weak, so severe that at one point I truly feared that he wouldn't make it. Worst moment of my life. If he would have had to go through any reaction anywhere close to what your son had to endure he would not have been strong enough to fight it and I am certain he would have died because he was so very close to it without having done so.
We did bring him back after a few months when we were convinced he was strong enough to handle any sort of reaction if it would occur, but I have to tell you they made me feel like and awful father, and almost criminal by not fallowing their guidelines, it was unreal and very hard to stand up to when initially refusing.
Lots of times you see clusters in colleges because of close quarters and sometimes you get foreign students from places where they don't vaccinate and children of anti-vaxxers. NY also has a few areas of religious communities like Hasidic (maybe it's them, but it might be a different group) Jews that don't vaccinate and the disease gets introduced.
And I don't know the logic behind it but I think I have read in the past where parents throw some sort of parties where they expose their children to things like mumps or measles instead of getting vaccinations? Very strange.
Were your kids born pre-1999? I only ask because according to the link below, the current schedule (since '99) is to give the first MMR vaccine after a year, then the 2nd between 4-6. Link - ( New Window )
Were your kids born pre-1999? I only ask because according to the link below, the current schedule (since '99) is to give the first MMR vaccine after a year, then the 2nd between 4-6. Link - ( New Window )
No it was after that. I can't recall exactly which shots they were so maybe it was something other than MMR but it was something that covered a number of things ( I want to say they may have mentioned hepatitis being one but can't say for sure) and they insisted he shouldn't leave without first receiving.
Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.
“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.
“I feel all sleepy, ” she said.
In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.
I actually had measles as a young adult. I thought I had it as a child, but apparently not. Of course we did have the vaccine. We all had the mumps, german measles and chicken pox. Which now I have shingles from, thanks!
I can see being cautious about vaccines when your kids are infants, but before they go to school or daycare, they have to be vaccinated. Link - ( New Window )
“There is absolutely no reason to get the shot,” said Crystal McDonald, whose 16-year-old daughter was one of 66 students sent home from Palm Desert High School for the next two weeks because they did not have full measles immunizations.
“There is absolutely no reason to get the shot,” said Crystal McDonald, whose 16-year-old daughter was one of 66 students sent home from Palm Desert High School for the next two weeks because they did not have full measles immunizations.
I guess I'm a bit slow this AM, but you'll have to expand on that comment.
Tobias has endured chickenpox and whooping cough, though Ms. McMenimen said the latter seemed more like a common cold. She considered a tetanus shot after he cut himself on a wire fence but decided against it: “He has such a strong immune system.”
“There is absolutely no reason to get the shot,” said Crystal McDonald, whose 16-year-old daughter was one of 66 students sent home from Palm Desert High School for the next two weeks because they did not have full measles immunizations.
I guess I'm a bit slow this AM, but you'll have to expand on that comment.
Her daughter had to miss two weeks of school, but there's absolutely no reason to get vaccinated....I know its pretty subtle...and its early
I am guessing it was the (for the times) part that threw him Â
No. Why was it funny "for the Times?" The comment was neither subtle, nor particularly funny (sad, perhaps, even mind-boggling). Would you not have expected the Times to print such a statement? Your readership wants to know.
but you can be sure that this office will get dinged on its Press Ganey and P4P patient satisfaction scores.... which, of course, is now tied to reimbursements.
I'm working through mione now. I was celebrating another contract extension from one of those evil giant Pharmaceutical companies and, perhaps, overdid it just a bit. It's a lesson I very occasionally have to re-learn, but fortunately this morning's lesson is terribly taxing.
Jan 31, 2015, 7:53 AM ET A person diagnosed with measles went to Penn Station this week and boarded an Amtrak train, possibly exposing fellow passengers, New York health officials said Friday.
"Anyone traveling on Amtrak train #283 from Penn Station in NYC to Albany on January 25, 2015, and who is not immune to measles or not sure of their measles immunity, should contact their primary care physician if they become ill with fever," the New York State Department of Health said in a statement.
The person who took the 1:20 p.m. train and exited in Rhinecliff, N.Y., was previously at Bard College in Dutchess County, where the diagnosis was made. continued ... - ( New Window )
..."mine" and "isn't terribly taxing." See what I mean?
LOL, not to worry I'm the crème de la crème of typos.
I almost forgot; Goober says, "Hey!"
That sprang to mind because I suddenly remember an Andy Griffith show where the County Nurse was trying to vaccinate farmers in the area against Tetanus, and the farmers (one Rafe Hollister, I believe) used some of the same arguments we hear from the anti-vaxers (i.e., "I ain't never been sick a day in my life!")
It's kind of sad, as an above comment from Rob in CT/NY alluded to, that we're revisiting some of that same thinking in our supposedly more enlightened times.
with my wife. It was MMR, but he was a year old (minus the the six and a half weeks). Horrible reaction to the vaccine...high fever...just moaned for three straight days.
No. Why was it funny "for the Times?" The comment was neither subtle, nor particularly funny (sad, perhaps, even mind-boggling). Would you not have expected the Times to print such a statement? Your readership wants to know.
Then maybe its the hangover. Congrats on the extension. Calling your business partner "evil" in jest suggests you're working on a sense of humor.
The Times isn't known for its humor. There wasn't anything more in the parentheses. When a writer debunks its subject's quote in the very same sentence, its funny. That the subject was a sad moron makes it Onion-like.
(tho does very little actual teaching) who also doesnt vax. Its a general distrust of all things institutional. And its very much a-political. Both sides have their paranoia
Dr. Andrew Wakefield should be in prison for falsifying data Â
No. Why was it funny "for the Times?" The comment was neither subtle, nor particularly funny (sad, perhaps, even mind-boggling). Would you not have expected the Times to print such a statement? Your readership wants to know.
Then maybe its the hangover. Congrats on the extension. Calling your business partner "evil" in jest suggests you're working on a sense of humor.
The Times isn't known for its humor. There wasn't anything more in the parentheses. When a writer debunks its subject's quote in the very same sentence, its funny. That the subject was a sad moron makes it Onion-like.
Actually, I have a finely-honed sense of humour, although it can be over-subtle at times. And I disagree that The Times isn't known for humour...it just isn't obvious, like the Onion.
If we examine the entire quote, we see that humour, largely in the eye of the beholder and certainly present here, isn't so much an objective as is pointing out the sad lack of cognition on the part of Ms. McDonald and, by extension, the whole anti-vax "movement."
The fact that she states a very obvious reason for getting vaccinated, not being tossed out of school, just makes the counterpoint even more effective.
“There is absolutely no reason to get the shot,” said Crystal McDonald, whose 16-year-old daughter was one of 66 students sent home from Palm Desert High School for the next two weeks because they did not have full measles immunizations.
After researching the issue and reading information from a national anti-vaccine advocacy group, Ms. McDonald said she and her husband, a chiropractor, decided to raise their four children without vaccines. She said they ate well and had never been to the doctor, and she insisted that her daughter was healthier than many classmates. But when the school sent her home with a letter, Ms. McDonald’s daughter was so concerned about missing two weeks of advanced-placement classes that she suggested simply getting a measles inoculation.
“I said, ‘No, absolutely not,’ “ Ms. McDonald said. “I said, ‘I’d rather you miss an entire semester than you get the shot.’ “
Perhaps if Ms. McDonald had a farm, she'd better understand inter-relationships and the associated risks she's laying on her children and anyone with whom they come in contact. Instead, she winds up with egg on her face.
On an Italian Court determining a direct link between the MMR and Autism Link - ( New Window )
Ludicrous.
Hey...but didn't their legal system also convict a bunch of scientists for not predicting an earthquake that killed a bunch of people? Or was that another crazy European nation?
(tho does very little actual teaching) who also doesnt vax. Its a general distrust of all things institutional. And its very much a-political. Both sides have their paranoia
My sister in law does exactly the same thing...has four kids and "homeschooled" all of them because she doesn't want anyone to tell her kids what to do. Her two older kids were vaccinated and are fine. Her two youngest ones have not been vaccinated yet her youngest has autism. Even though she recognizes that vaccination had nothing to do with the autism, she still refuses to vaccinate the two younger ones.
On an Italian Court determining a direct link between the MMR and Autism Link - ( New Window )
Ludicrous.
Hey...but didn't their legal system also convict a bunch of scientists for not predicting an earthquake that killed a bunch of people? Or was that another crazy European nation?
they're kind-hearted people and they're reasonably intelligent, but it took popping a consistent fever in the 103-104 range before they took the kid to the quack and Mom is dealing with the aftermath of Lymes Disease that went untreated for too long. And the driving force behind a lot of this locally is a chiropractor's wife who frankly acts like a bully toward other moms. She and my wife are friends but her initial affinity for her seemed to have more to do with the fact that my wife can't readily detach herself from the conversation because she is handicapped. That affinity dimmed when my wife politely but insistently rebuffed her bullshit vis a vis oils and vaccines.
RE: We have friends who insist that essential oils can cure everything... Â
they're kind-hearted people and they're reasonably intelligent, but it took popping a consistent fever in the 103-104 range before they took the kid to the quack and Mom is dealing with the aftermath of Lymes Disease that went untreated for too long. And the driving force behind a lot of this locally is a chiropractor's wife who frankly acts like a bully toward other moms. She and my wife are friends but her initial affinity for her seemed to have more to do with the fact that my wife can't readily detach herself from the conversation because she is handicapped. That affinity dimmed when my wife politely but insistently rebuffed her bullshit vis a vis oils and vaccines.
I've seen that as well. Some of these people really get into the whole Life Coaching market (in which essential oil market is a huge part of it) and basically surround themselves with others with similar mentality. It's like the worst form of peer pressure and groupthink.
My kids get all of them. But, I don't get all the hoopla about the measles vaccine. Measles are not on the same level as Ebola or Smallpox; people don’t die from the measles. Sure it’s a pain in the ass and can be avoided, but it’s not that big a deal if you get them. Most of the older generation on this site had the measles while growing up (things like mumps, measles, chickenpox were all part of growing up), and I for one don't know of a single friend or relative (or anyone else) that had any long term effects from having had the measles. And yes we have a few nut jobs on this site, but I don’t think measles had anything to do with that. If you’re worried about your kids getting the measles, then get them vaccinated. But if it worries you that this particular vaccine is dangerous, then don’t let the scare mongers lie to you to scare you into doing something that you don’t want to do.
I've done a lot of reading on the internet for my various Â
health issues and have found good information. But there is a lot of BS to go through. Essential oils are good, I use a tree tea oil toothpaste because I can't tolerate most regular toothpastes. But a fever? I was sick last week with the flu (yes I had the shot, but we all know how ineffective it was). I read an article that a fever is good and you shouldn't try to bring it down. WTF? So you have to be careful about what you read and what you actually put into practice.
My kids get all of them. But, I don't get all the hoopla about the measles vaccine. Measles are not on the same level as Ebola or Smallpox; people don’t die from the measles. Sure it’s a pain in the ass and can be avoided, but it’s not that big a deal if you get them. Most of the older generation on this site had the measles while growing up (things like mumps, measles, chickenpox were all part of growing up), and I for one don't know of a single friend or relative (or anyone else) that had any long term effects from having had the measles. And yes we have a few nut jobs on this site, but I don’t think measles had anything to do with that. If you’re worried about your kids getting the measles, then get them vaccinated. But if it worries you that this particular vaccine is dangerous, then don’t let the scare mongers lie to you to scare you into doing something that you don’t want to do.
[quote]
Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.
The disease remains one of the leading causes of death among young children globally, despite the availability of a safe and effective vaccine. Approximately 145 700 people died from measles in 2013 – mostly children under the age of 5.
{/quote] Link - ( New Window )
Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.
The disease remains one of the leading causes of death among young children globally, despite the availability of a safe and effective vaccine. Approximately 145 700 people died from measles in 2013 – mostly children under the age of 5.
Measles has been theorized as the cause for the collapse of indigenous colonies in the Americas from Europe. That's a lot of death.
Measles is highly contagious; 90% of people who come in contact with someone with measles contract it, and can last up to 2 hours in the air or on surfaces. And, while measles may not be on the level of Ebola (seriously?), it often leads to secondary illnesses that do kill.
Namely, pneumonia or bronchitis.
People that "don't get" why measles are bad benefit from about a half a century of immunizations that have led to this development.
My kids get all of them. But, I don't get all the hoopla about the measles vaccine. Measles are not on the same level as Ebola or Smallpox; people don’t die from the measles.
World Health Organization ... Updated November 2014 ...
Key facts
* Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
* In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
* Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
* In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
* During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
------------------------------------------
Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.
The primary, peer-reviewed literature that drives recommendations and consensus statements is referenced. You can read it to attain a comfort level with current practice patterns.
If you choose to listen to others who claim to have read the literature, and then choose to believe them without reading it yourself, do not expect any benefit from all that work that was done.
If you chose to accept something that is promoted without any basic or clinical research supporting it, just don't pretend you know anything. And if you listen to soemone who says they know something when there is no knowledge, do not expect any benefit.
If it harms you, buyer beware.
When you compare measles to Ebola or smallpox to drive your point Â
and no one ever panicked when their kids got them like it was some kiss of death. You are leaving out one key element of the research. The death rate in developed nations with low rates of malnutrition and good healthcare is extremely low (which I think the US still qualifies as a developed nation). Everyone had them when I was growing up (I had them at 4 or 5), people weren't dying, and there was never a panic. It meant you felt bad, had red dots all over, and stayed home for five days.
Simply because no one in your enclave died from them Â
doesn't mean that it's a universal truth. It happened, even in 1980's America.
Plus, what mindset is it that simply because we suffered through an illness, future generations should as well? The benefits of medical advancement are so that future generations do not have to suffer through similar afflictions that we did.
Measles being one.
For the life of me, I can't fathom the notion that because we have developed a highly successful vaccine against a highly contagious disease, because people lived through it and "no one around me died", we have an out against vaccination.
Perhaps (and maybe just perhaps), vaccinations also benefit these mal-nourished and under-developed country? Where sanitation and other health care services are nowhere near adequate? But nah, fuck them. America.
Measles in their own right are still very dangerous to those, who are already unable to get the vaccine due to compromised immune system or are too young or have allergies to the vaccine. They rely on the herd community concept to safeguard themselves from the measles. So while a normal healthy individuals may not have too much to worry about whether they have had or haven't had the vaccines as long as they have the medical resource to treat it after the fact, not everyone is able to survive (or survive without long term effects).
But to try to use two of the most deadly diseases in human history to compare the danger of measles seems...hmmm...ridiculous? It's almost like saying living in the urban sprawls of Chicago is perfectly safe because compared to Areppo, Syria, not too many people get killed in Chicago (even though that city has one of the highest gun deaths in the nation).
Nowhere did I say that I am not against the vaccine or that because I went through it others should have to as well. My three kids have all received the vaccine, not because my wife and I were afraid of the virus, but because it is something unpleasant that my we didn’t want our kids to experience if they didn't have to. What I am against is forcing others to take the vaccine when they are afraid of it.
We homeschool and I can say that there are all types Â
We have met some people who are pretty "out there" and have all sorts of strange motivations, and yes some of those are anti many things including vaccinations. For ourselves and the families we are fiends with that homeschool we put a lot of time, effort and energy into it and it can be terrific with some real benefits. It certainly isn't for all families and not everyone is able to or is willing to put in all the time, effort and expense required. It truly takes a tremendous amount of work. And yes we have fully vaccinated our children.
Ah. So, instead of following what the experts say, we should Â
No. Why was it funny "for the Times?" The comment was neither subtle, nor particularly funny (sad, perhaps, even mind-boggling). Would you not have expected the Times to print such a statement? Your readership wants to know.
Then maybe its the hangover. Congrats on the extension. Calling your business partner "evil" in jest suggests you're working on a sense of humor.
The Times isn't known for its humor. There wasn't anything more in the parentheses. When a writer debunks its subject's quote in the very same sentence, its funny. That the subject was a sad moron makes it Onion-like.
Actually, I have a finely-honed sense of humour, although it can be over-subtle at times. And I disagree that The Times isn't known for humour...it just isn't obvious, like the Onion.
If we examine the entire quote, we see that humour, largely in the eye of the beholder and certainly present here, isn't so much an objective as is pointing out the sad lack of cognition on the part of Ms. McDonald and, by extension, the whole anti-vax "movement."
The fact that she states a very obvious reason for getting vaccinated, not being tossed out of school, just makes the counterpoint even more effective.
“There is absolutely no reason to get the shot,” said Crystal McDonald, whose 16-year-old daughter was one of 66 students sent home from Palm Desert High School for the next two weeks because they did not have full measles immunizations.
After researching the issue and reading information from a national anti-vaccine advocacy group, Ms. McDonald said she and her husband, a chiropractor, decided to raise their four children without vaccines. She said they ate well and had never been to the doctor, and she insisted that her daughter was healthier than many classmates. But when the school sent her home with a letter, Ms. McDonald’s daughter was so concerned about missing two weeks of advanced-placement classes that she suggested simply getting a measles inoculation.
“I said, ‘No, absolutely not,’ “ Ms. McDonald said. “I said, ‘I’d rather you miss an entire semester than you get the shot.’ “
Perhaps if Ms. McDonald had a farm, she'd better understand inter-relationships and the associated risks she's laying on her children and anyone with whom they come in contact. Instead, she winds up with egg on her face.
How ironic thaT her husband is a chiropractor. A group of supposed physicians whose own profession is pretty much a sham.
Nowhere did I say that I am not against the vaccine or that because I went through it others should have to as well. My three kids have all received the vaccine, not because my wife and I were afraid of the virus, but because it is something unpleasant that my we didn’t want our kids to experience if they didn't have to. What I am against is forcing others to take the vaccine when they are afraid of it.
But fear in face of overwhelming science and proof isn't a rational concept. It's born out of either willful ignorance or some other preconceived biases. So if you are going to let that fear be the pretext to your decision that may or may not impact those around you, then I have no problem with those individuals (and their kids) being forced to be vaccinated if they want to use public services. However, if you want to hole up somewhere, go ahead.
Nowhere did I say that I am not against the vaccine or that because I went through it others should have to as well. My three kids have all received the vaccine, not because my wife and I were afraid of the virus, but because it is something unpleasant that my we didn’t want our kids to experience if they didn't have to. What I am against is forcing others to take the vaccine when they are afraid of it.
Good lord. Maybe people can educate themselves instead of being scared of life-saving medicine? Them not getting vaccinated affects everyone, not just their selfish, ignorant family. I will give you credit for dismissing hundreds of years of data on measles death because nobody you know died from it, though. Kudos.
then why is it that the guys in the rubber suits from the health dept. don’t show up on door steps and quarantine homes when someone comes down with it. If you worried about someone else “selfishly” spreading it to your family, then do the responsible thing and get your family vaccinated; that’s what I did. But you can bet if I thought for even a second that I would have been endangering any of my children more by giving them the vaccine (right or wrong), they would not have gotten it; and no there’s no one that could have forced me.
then why is it that the guys in the rubber suits from the health dept. don’t show up on door steps and quarantine homes when someone comes down with it. If you worried about someone else “selfishly” spreading it to your family, then do the responsible thing and get your family vaccinated; that’s what I did. But you can bet if I thought for even a second that I would have been endangering any of my children more by giving them the vaccine (right or wrong), they would not have gotten it; and no there’s no one that could have forced me.
Maybe my children are too young or have compromised immune systems and can't get vaccinated, genius...
I think there is a certain small percentage in which the vaccination may be ineffective and that is why it is so important most everyone does vaccinate for it to be truly effective for the general population. That and infants under the age of the schedule for vaccination who would all be at risk.
Quote:
If you worried about someone else “selfishly” spreading it to your family, then do the responsible thing and get your family vaccinated; that’s what I did.
PS I doubt there is anyone here that would do something to their children if they truly believed it would harm them, you aren't alone in that.
Fuck it. Why listen to doctors and the weight of evidence? Â
Then you have more than measles to worry about. Maybe we should mandate that everyone wear surgical masks and rubber suits when going into public.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
RE: If your children have compromised immune systems Â
Then you have more than measles to worry about. Maybe we should mandate that everyone wear surgical masks and rubber suits when going into public.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Personally I'm more concerned with the precedent it would set if we allow the government to dictate what must go into our bodies.
FWIW, I'm very pro vaccine.
I like the idea of making it a tax, similar to the ACA.
Get vaccinated or pay a tax that will help offset the costs of public health.
And, of course, is based on no science that is credible. And, unfortunately, those who choose not to comply don't suffer the consequences of their actions; innocents (children) do, including those who aren't their children.
You are buying into the hysteria that the vaccine is Â
dangerous. It's not, not to 99.99999999 of the people. The risks of getting a disease, whether it's small pox or measles or any of them is much greater.
No one is saying that measles is Ebola or something that you will definitely die from. But people DO die from it. And having it is no picnic. Plus the fact that healthy kids not getting vaccinated will likely get exposed and can spread it to other kids who can't get vaccinated and who's health is not as good.
And let me ask you, if you are so concerned about vaccines Â
what do you feed your kids? Do you make sure every meal is sourced properly from approved foods? Do you smoke in the house? Do you use cleaning products that might cause issues? Do you let your kids play sports where they could get injured? Do you let them use computer screens that could screw up their brains? I mean, how far are you going to take this?
RE: If your children have compromised immune systems Â
Then you have more than measles to worry about. Maybe we should mandate that everyone wear surgical masks and rubber suits when going into public.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Try walking into your local police station smoking a joint or huffing some coke. After all, it's your body, and it's none of their business making such things illegal.
RE: RE: If your children have compromised immune systems Â
Then you have more than measles to worry about. Maybe we should mandate that everyone wear surgical masks and rubber suits when going into public.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Try walking into your local police station smoking a joint or huffing some coke. After all, it's your body, and it's none of their business making such things illegal.
There is a huge difference between being prohibited from putting something in your body and being forced to.
Without wading into this debate [again], I would just point out that some of you seem to infer that doctor's recommendations are never wrong. Facts clearly prove otherwise. In fact, medical error is a fairly routine cause of death and other serious maladies here in the US and around the world. Medical science is not inerrant. This is not a minor point in my consideration of whether or not people should be forced by the state to vaccinate their children.
Like with many debates, this one is interesting because there isn't one side that is entirely correct. Sure, some vaccines are mostly safe and effective. However, some other vaccines are neither entirely safe nor proven to be effective.
People should be free to live their own lives. Parents should be allowed to make medical decisions for their children.
Without wading into this debate [again], I would just point out that some of you seem to infer that doctor's recommendations are never wrong. Facts clearly prove otherwise. In fact, medical error is a fairly routine cause of death and other serious maladies here in the US and around the world. Medical science is not inerrant. This is not a minor point in my consideration of whether or not people should be forced by the state to vaccinate their children.
Like with many debates, this one is interesting because there isn't one side that is entirely correct. Sure, some vaccines are mostly safe and effective. However, some other vaccines are neither entirely safe nor proven to be effective.
People should be free to live their own lives. Parents should be allowed to make medical decisions for their children.
But if your idiotic decision based on nothing more than fear or junk science gets my child sick, I will make sure to kick the shit out of your selfish ass.
for the welfare of me and my families welfare to protect us from assholes like you and your family who will infect me and mine by mandated vaccinations
Very few people in this thread arguing about freedom to decide on whether to vaccinate their children or not have ever seen kids afflicted with the ailments and effects of surviving some of the most contagious, dangerous, and at the same time preventable diseases. All you have to go on is this notion that since you live in an incredibly healthy (from communicable diseases) nation, your decision will have little negative impact. And this may be true for most people. However, the moment your child or anyone else close to you end up contracting something that was wholly preventable, you'll be praying to Jesus that you hope the doctors can save them.
It's all everyone elses' problem until you have to face the horrors of seeing your child suffer through something that was preventable from the start. So fuck your freedom when it comes to vaccination.
RE: No this is one area that government involved Â
for the welfare of me and my families welfare to protect us from assholes like you and your family who will infect me and mine by mandated vaccinations
It's not the vaccines I have an issue with. My kids are vaccinated.
It's the precedent it sets that say government can tell you what you have to put into your body that worries me.
Then you have more than measles to worry about. Maybe we should mandate that everyone wear surgical masks and rubber suits when going into public.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Try walking into your local police station smoking a joint or huffing some coke. After all, it's your body, and it's none of their business making such things illegal.
There is a huge difference between being prohibited from putting something in your body and being forced to.
For the purposes of this argument and the way it's been framed, there's no difference at all.
Without wading into this debate [again], I would just point out that some of you seem to infer that doctor's recommendations are never wrong. Facts clearly prove otherwise. In fact, medical error is a fairly routine cause of death and other serious maladies here in the US and around the world. Medical science is not inerrant. This is not a minor point in my consideration of whether or not people should be forced by the state to vaccinate their children.
Like with many debates, this one is interesting because there isn't one side that is entirely correct. Sure, some vaccines are mostly safe and effective. However, some other vaccines are neither entirely safe nor proven to be effective.
People should be free to live their own lives. Parents should be allowed to make medical decisions for their children.
I get it. I don't trust doctors. Most are stuck in one mode when it comes to treatment. I've spent a lot of time looking at alternative medicine and diet and a lot of it makes sense and I see it creeping into traditional medicine.
But vaccines are proven to prevent disease. The hype against them is just that. The government can't force you to vaccinate your kids. But they can refuse to allow them in schools or other places where they are required. Your choice.
Oh no, someone on the internet threaten to kick my ass and called me names.
Anyhow, why let things like reasoned debate and civil liberties get in the way of your opinions?
Yeah...that post in response to yours should have ended with "general you" and not specifically you. I should have specifically stated that...as I can completely see how that came out. My apology if you thought I was making a threat at you...it was a general sentiment at anyone who puts my kids in danger through their own selfishness.
And civil liberties be damned if your (general your) actions/inactions put others in danger. To choose not to vaccinate your children because of shit science and some talking twats should automatically negate your right to be a parent.
Btw, the result in the Italian court case reminds me greatly of the bizarre pseudoscience surrounding the Amanda Knox murder case. Why use real science when there are so many other ways to reach a conclusion?
who you want to trust. Thousands of independent scientists with tens of thousands of pages in peer reviewed journal articles or Jenny McCarthy? If you pick Jenny McCarthy you are a fucking idiot and I could not care less what happens to your civil liberties.
vaccination because they don't like the government and they can't differentiate between the health of their kids and their hate of all things government makes me wonder why they choose to raise kids in this country?
RE: The thought that a parent would deny their kids Â
vaccination because they don't like the government and they can't differentiate between the health of their kids and their hate of all things government makes me wonder why they choose to raise kids in this country?
Maybe as fuck trophies?
Italy has also jailed scientists for failing to predict an earthquake Â
but there was a decent chance I was going to be on national tv w/ Jenny McCarthy on NYE in TS as a happy reveler. She was supposed to ask me if I was having fun and I was seriously thinking about looking into the camera and saying "America, vaccinate your children!".
Civil liberties as defined in the Constitution... Â
to the extent that they actually are, were created long before immunization science existed. Your civil liberties stop at the outer layer of my child's skin. It's not like abortion, or hard drugs, or any other issue where there are two sides to the debate, largely based upon belief systems. Immunization eradicated polio in almost every country in the developed world. It eradicated measles in this country, before some quack doctor made himself rich lying about the supposed link with Autism.
Btw, it is hard to do double-blind studies wrt the supposed MMR/autism link, but their are so many easy ways around
that, such as the impressive studies comparing the US and Denmark.
Quote:
For many years, groups touting the idea that vaccines cause autism have pointed to Denmark as part of their argument. Denmark uses fewer vaccines than the U.S.. Generation Rescue used to have this on their website discussion of vaccines:
Comment: Denmark is a first world country based in Western Europe. Their schedule appears far more reasonable than ours. They have also been reported to have a much lower rate of autism than the U.S. Do they know something we don’t?
What was that Danish vaccine schedule that Generation Rescue recommended?
DTaP at 3, 5 and 12 months
Hib at 3, 5 and 12 months
IPV at 3, 5 and 12 months, plus 5 years
MMR at 15 months and 12 years
No mercury (Denmark phased that out in 1992). No birth dose of Hepatitis B. Fewer vaccines overall than in the U.S.. And the same autism prevalence of about 1%....
So, we have 1.4% in Denmark and 0.8%, nearly half the Danish prevalence, in the U.S.. Denmark had no thimerosal, no Hepatitis B shot (birth or otherwise), fewer vaccines and less aluminum exposure. And much higher reported autism prevalence...
The prevalence of childhood autism (basically what was studied in the 2003 paper) in Denmark is flat from birth cohorts 1996-2004. Flat. The prevalence of ASD’s do see a decline. That must be it! Evidence that thimerosal was causing autism in Denmark! But it isn’t. The prevalence of ASD in 2003-04 is the same as that in 1990-91, before thimerosal was removed.
I've been around here long enough to know you weren't threatening me and we're all basically having a good spirited debate. Enough bout dat.
I'm a pretty staunch libraterian so while I'm not comfortable with science deniers, I'm less comfortable with the notion of government intervention in the affairs of my health. Still, I get it that non vax people can compromise vax efforts and public health. Its just that I'm more comfortable with that risk than I am with the problems I see (or imagine) with the risk of state tyranny.
RE: RE: The thought that a parent would deny their kids Â
vaccination because they don't like the government and they can't differentiate between the health of their kids and their hate of all things government makes me wonder why they choose to raise kids in this country?
Maybe as fuck trophies?
Look at me! I'm special! I don't vaccinate my kids! I'm a better parent than you!
RE: The thought that a parent would deny their kids Â
vaccination because they don't like the government and they can't differentiate between the health of their kids and their hate of all things government makes me wonder why they choose to raise kids in this country?
I may have missed it, but I don't believe anyone wrote they would forgo vaccinations because of "they don't like the government". People have fears and will act on them. Some are afraid of the measles vaccination, and therefore don’t get their families vaccinated. As a responsible adult you have to ask yourself how to protect your family, regardless of what others do. The answer is very simple, get your family vaccinated. That way it doesn’t matter what your neighbor does, you’re protected. RCO vaccinate your kids, and then you don’t have to worry about whose ass you’re going kick. As you’ve said the protection is there and available and the science proves it; so do the responsible thing and protect your family. Because if you don’t and someone in your family get the measles, that’s on you.
To see if financial liability arises from the carelessness and stupidity of these parents. My guess is that their "beliefs" fall by the way side in the face of a real cost to their hubris.
I’m dating myself a bit, and don’t know how old you are. When I was kid, just about everyone alive in the US had the measles at some point in their life(if you’re too young, ask your parents they probably had them). People weren’t dying all over the place; most didn’t even go to see the doctor. You got them, you got a low level fever, your parents gave you baby aspirin, and put you in bed for five days. By day three you were pissed off because, other than the spots on your body, you were feeling no effects and wanted to get up and go play; but your parents wouldn’t let you because you were still contagious. No one panicked, parent didn’t stay up worrying all night that little Johnny might not be alive or on life support by morning; you got them and five days later they were gone. And thats how it went for generations before the vaccine.
The measles has not been a source of concern for generations? Â
Again, proclaiming (loudly) that you don't know the secondary factors related to the disease (bronchitis and pneumonia) are not something I'd be proud of.
Perhaps you don't know what was one of the leading causes of death in 1900's America (up until around 1940, which is a "few generations" back)?
It was pneumonia, which is a very real worry with measles, considering, of course, that measles is a respiratory disease. You can also check out the other leading causes of death during these generations. There were a variety of respiratory illnesses (which can be the secondary infections resulting from contracting the measles) on there.
I’m dating myself a bit, and don’t know how old you are. When I was kid, just about everyone alive in the US had the measles at some point in their life(if you’re too young, ask your parents they probably had them). People weren’t dying all over the place; most didn’t even go to see the doctor. You got them, you got a low level fever, your parents gave you baby aspirin, and put you in bed for five days. By day three you were pissed off because, other than the spots on your body, you were feeling no effects and wanted to get up and go play; but your parents wouldn’t let you because you were still contagious. No one panicked, parent didn’t stay up worrying all night that little Johnny might not be alive or on life support by morning; you got them and five days later they were gone. And thats how it went for generations before the vaccine.
That might be true for the general public but for the very young, the elderly, the infirm and the immunocompromised a disease like the measels can and does cause death in some cases. You saw the information from the WHO further up the thread.
The whole idea of widespread vaccination is to directly protect those who can be vaccinated and indirectly protect those who cannot for medical reasons via herd immunity. That all breaks down when stupid people ignore voluminous amounts of data and general scientific consensus in order to make a selfish choice that endangers themselves and others.
Oh. Perhaps you'd like to take a look of what the impact Â
if you didn't have either chicken pox or the mumps, I believe it was chicken pox and one of friends did, your parents sent you to their house so you could catch it. It was a common practice, but no one I know wanted anything to do with measles
I offer this fact
-In 2014 Dr. William H. Thompson confessed that he was directed by the CDC to change the results his team had found on the MMR vaccine .His team had found that in particular among African-American males if you were vaccinated before the age of three you had a 3-4 times greater chance of developing autism. That sure sounds like a vaccine causing autism to me, oh and the particular vaccine in Dr. Wakefield's study, what a coincidence. It's funny that the major news outlets made very little mention of this, a government agency directly deceiving the American public.
You can go ahead with the attack dogs and mob mentality now which I am sure will follow, but you should know that all my children are vaccinated and I have never advised anyone not to vaccinate!
Oh and another fun fact, you CANNOT sue the pharmaceutical companies for adverse effects from a vaccine!
As a responsible adult you have to ask yourself how to protect your family, regardless of what others do. The answer is very simple, get your family vaccinated. That way it doesn’t matter what your neighbor does, you’re protected.
Doesn't work that way. Even after the 1st shot at 12-18 months of age and the second shot at kindergarten age the vaccine is not effective for 100% of the vaccinated. It does matter what my neighbor does if I'm in that percent that the vaccine didn't work on, I'm under 12 months old or under 6 years old. Herd immunity works. Anti-vaxxers weaken it.
But vaccines are proven to prevent disease. The hype against them is just that. The government can't force you to vaccinate your kids. But they can refuse to allow them in schools or other places where they are required. Your choice.
Does anyone deny that vaccines work? Do even the most passionate anti-vaccine folks distrust the science behind vaccinations and what makes them effective?
If that's an argument, I haven't heard anyone make it. I think their skepticism is targeted more towards those who make and sell the vaccines.
I hope to hell their suspicion and skepticism are wrong because we've opted to have every vaccine applied to our son, but it sure as hell wouldn'tbethefirsttime something was simply accepted on faith to be safe and only eventually wound up being proven not to be.
Over time with a better fed population and improvements in hygiene, as well as improvements in the ability to treat secondary conditions. Good stuff.
How that has suddenly become an excuse to act like an idiot and allow virtually eradicated diseases to re-emerge is beyond me. Mumps decreased in lethality - why bother? Diphtheria? Sure.
After while those 1 or 2 deaths per thousand add up, but good job, your "civil liberties" are intact.
That no one is bothered by the CDC falsifying their own study when they are the ones recommending the vaccine schedule. It seems people are just more interested in attacking anyone who dares to speak about vaccines. The name calling is ludicrous and the fact is that most of the people opting out (and again I do not recommend this) are among the more well educated, a fact cited often by known vaccine defender Dr. Paul Offit who makes millions off vaccines.
That no one is bothered by the CDC falsifying their own study when they are the ones recommending the vaccine schedule. It seems people are just more interested in attacking anyone who dares to speak about vaccines. The name calling is ludicrous and the fact is that most of the people opting out (and again I do not recommend this) are among the more well educated, a fact cited often by known vaccine defender Dr. Paul Offit who makes millions off vaccines.
Provide the link that you got your info from. Let's start there.
Not providing the link I am not good with that stuff, it is available on the age of autism web site, but wouldn't you think that a story of that magnitude would have made more of a splash in the national news media!
And again I am NOT against vaccines, but the schedule went out of control in 1987 to the tune of 36 vaccines by age two, vaccines have controlled a variety of deadly diseases but are we healthier as a nation, look around especially at the children auto-immune disorders are through the roof!
is the end-all of all topics but here is what they have to say about the claim, The CDC has intentionally suppressed proof of vaccine-related cases of autism in African-American boys from reaching the public.
Is only based on "faith", you need to pay closer attention.
What else can it be based upon? You can't prove something is entirely safe.
50-100 years from now, our grandkids or great grandkids will watch a period piece (probably a holographic one?) set in the early 2000's, and they'll say, "Wow, they actually didn't know _________ was dangerous back then?" It's pretty much inevitable. I just hope __________ isn't vaccines.
(that is not causation) that purport to show a link.
Do you know why experiments, or random selection are used? Because in large enough groups, the two groups are identical. Except...most "control" groups, those who have not had vaccines, are brought into the experiment in markedly smaller numbers.
Which means you can't ever assert a causal relationship.
Oh no, someone on the internet threaten to kick my ass and called me names.
Anyhow, why let things like reasoned debate and civil liberties get in the way of your opinions?
Yeah...that post in response to yours should have ended with "general you" and not specifically you. I should have specifically stated that...as I can completely see how that came out. My apology if you thought I was making a threat at you...it was a general sentiment at anyone who puts my kids in danger through their own selfishness.
And civil liberties be damned if your (general your) actions/inactions put others in danger. To choose not to vaccinate your children because of shit science and some talking twats should automatically negate your right to be a parent.
Ronnie, just playing devils advocate here, but if your kids are vaccinated then they shouldn't have to worry about the unvaccinated kids, no?
Not being a shit stirrer either, just sayin. The argument by government is that YOU could die by not being vaccinated. Not that you could cause a pandemic. At least that's the story I'm always told.
Vaccines are not 100% safe. Never have been claimed to be. Â
There will be significant adverse side effects, and potentially even death, among those who take it.
The correct comparison to make is looking at population health if there was no vaccine; this is what makes vaccines immeasurably worth it.
By the way, simple statistics state that the large numbers of studies, with large populations, spanning decades established as near to scientific certainty as you can get. It's about as likely to get tossed in the garbag bin of history as the Law of Demand.
Ronnie, just playing devils advocate here, but if your kids are vaccinated then they shouldn't have to worry about the unvaccinated kids, no?
Not being a shit stirrer either, just sayin. The argument by government is that YOU could die by not being vaccinated. Not that you could cause a pandemic. At least that's the story I'm always told.
As kicker stated, who's to say that my daughter's body was able to respond properly to the vaccine? And I have a 3 month old, who is too young to get the vaccine. So until he is old enough to get it, people purposely not getting it will just put him and others in potential danger.
It's about ensuring that those who can't get the vaccine are protected.
But vaccines are proven to prevent disease. The hype against them is just that. The government can't force you to vaccinate your kids. But they can refuse to allow them in schools or other places where they are required. Your choice.
Does anyone deny that vaccines work? Do even the most passionate anti-vaccine folks distrust the science behind vaccinations and what makes them effective?
If that's an argument, I haven't heard anyone make it. I think their skepticism is targeted more towards those who make and sell the vaccines.
I hope to hell their suspicion and skepticism are wrong because we've opted to have every vaccine applied to our son, but it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time something was simply accepted on faith to be safe and only eventually wound up being proven not to be.
Yes, there are people who doubt the vaccines work (they of course cite that they are not 100% as proof that they don't work) or worse, they say that the vaccine gives people the disease or causes autism. Now as I said, I don't have blind faith in doctors or pharmaceutical companies. But I'm more worried about getting a bad disease that I could have been vaccinated for, like tetanus. So I get the vaccine even though I do have auto-immune disorders and many people who do don't get vaccines. It's a matter of where you believe the greater risk to be. The fact that we had these vaccines and they have eradicated the disease for us for the most part, people don't understand how dangerous these diseases can be. And you have people like Beer Man say 'hey, what's the big deal, you get some spots on your face and stay home from school for a few days, relax!'. It's absurd.
An article about a very powerful letter Roald Dahl wrote about the death of his daughter to measles. You know, the disease that doesn't kill anyone? Link - ( New Window )
Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
Quote:
I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
Quote:
I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
You are skimming over the truth that they omitted data implicating the vaccine, I never said that dr Thompson recommended against vaccination, nor do I.
Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
Quote:
I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
You are skimming over the truth that they omitted data implicating the vaccine, I never said that dr Thompson recommended against vaccination, nor do I.
No, I'm not skimming over anything. It is a very long article explaining all the details and how Thompson was duped by the interviewer. The link was provided and there is no way that I'm going to cut and paste the whole thing. I pasted what I thought would be to the point, a quote by Thpmpson that he would never advise avoiding vaccines. I don't have the patience to or inclination to go over that long article point by point. Try reading it yourself.
Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
Quote:
I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
You are skimming over the truth that they omitted data implicating the vaccine, I never said that dr Thompson recommended against vaccination, nor do I.
No, I'm not skimming over anything. It is a very long article explaining all the details and how Thompson was duped by the interviewer. The link was provided and there is no way that I'm going to cut and paste the whole thing. I pasted what I thought would be to the point, a quote by Thpmpson that he would never advise avoiding vaccines. I don't have the patience to or inclination to go over that long article point by point. Try reading it yourself.
Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
Quote:
I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
You are skimming over the truth that they omitted data implicating the vaccine, I never said that dr Thompson recommended against vaccination, nor do I.
No, I'm not skimming over anything. It is a very long article explaining all the details and how Thompson was duped by the interviewer. The link was provided and there is no way that I'm going to cut and paste the whole thing. I pasted what I thought would be to the point, a quote by Thpmpson that he would never advise avoiding vaccines. I don't have the patience to or inclination to go over that long article point by point. Try reading it yourself.
I have read several on the incident but all you quote is the dr's recommendation while the "gist" of the matter is he admits to omitting relevant data in the study under the CDC's direction, that's the point.
I'll see if I can find the link, but the "omitting" data part Â
And has been stated why repeatedly. If you want to utilize people as a control group, you have to have detailed information on the control groups, which is what they did not have. Again, it's basic statistics.
You can't establish a correlation OR a causation when your control group is compromised. If they told them to omit it, it's done because it's a correct (and routine) statistical procedure. Literally utilized in every study comparing two groups.
For a thorough analysis of the flaws and misinformation associated with the current CDC autism "cover-up" conspiracy theory, we recommend the posts on the subject at ScienceBlogs, which note of the claim at the heart of this matter (i.e, allegedly suppressed proof of a 340% increased risk of autism in African-American boys after MMR vaccination) that:
Vaccination data were abstracted from immunization forms required for school entry, and records of children who were born in Georgia were linked to Georgia birth certificates for information on maternal and birth factors. Basically, no significant associations were found between the age cutoffs examined and the risk of autism. I note that, even in the “reanalysis” by Brian Hooker, there still isn’t any such correlation for children who are not African American boys
Wakefield claims that African American boys were "neglected" [in Thompson's study]. He also claims that this is vindication for him, but, of course, it is not. Notice how he completely neglects to mention that in every other subgroup [examined in the study], even Hooker couldn’t torture the data to make it confess a relationship between age at MMR vaccination and autism in any other population other than a very small population in the study: African-American males. Whenever that happens as you slice epidemiological data finer and finer, you should be alert for the very distinct possibility that what you're really looking at is a spurious correlation. As I pointed out before, Hooker in reality merely confirmed that Wakefield was wrong about everyone except African-American males, and, given how small this subgroup was in the study, almost certainly didn’t find any evidence supporting Wakefield’s hypothesis (such as it is) for even African-American boys. Yet, Wakefield, as deluded as he is, spins it as "vindication." He even thanks Hooker for getting a "senior scientist at the CDC" to come forward and "confirm" that some of those "ideas we put forward" are true. Holy hell! Even if you spin Thompson’s statements in the most unflattering manner possible towards the CDC and his co-investigators, Thompson said nothing of the sort!
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp#CgPqAX07CvxgChGp.99
They are the bottom line, rarely you jest. The spin doctoring and watering down of this issue started a while ago. Still doesn't change the fact of omitting data under CDC direction. I only jumped into this to answer the torch and pitchfork crowd that people may have some reason behind their position. I realize that feelings on this issue are so strong that I am not going to change your mind and you certainly aren't going to change mine! I
If what he was saying was no big deal and explainable then why go to the press about it, what's newsworthy in that!
Really? The only time he "went to the press" was to set the record straight on how Hooker hoodwinked him.
Quote:
I have had many discussions with Dr. Brian Hooker over the last 10 months regarding studies the CDC has carried out regarding vaccines and neurodevelopmental outcomes including autism spectrum disorders. I share his beliefthat CDC decision-making and analyses should be transparent. I was not, however, aware that he was recording any of our conversations, nor was I given any choice regarding whether my name would be made public or my voice would be put on the Internet.
There's a game theory aspect to all of this, of course. Â
If 1% of a population is anti-vaxxers, it is really easy for them to justify in their own minds that the perceived risk FROM the vaccination--even if unmeasurable in any scientific sense--are greater than the perceived risks of not getting vaccinated. "See, I didn't get my kids vaccinated, and they didn't get sick."
As the proportion of the unvaccinated population grows, however, the perceived and real risks flip in the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations. That is why there are clusters of unvaccinated people in little pockets of California, who talked each other out of getting their kids vaccinated, and who are now seeing a sharply higher risk of measles than in the general population. The same thing happened with polio some places in Africa, and in the US with whooping cough.
Dr. William Schaffner, an infectious disease expert at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, said herd immunity is important because no vaccine can perfectly protect 100 percent of people.
"If everyone else is vaccinated, then the weak are protected, because they are surrounded with a cocoon of protection of others," Schaffner said. "The herd of strong protect the few weak." [...] measles is one of the most infectious viruses in existence. It will infect 90 percent of susceptible people if they are exposed [...] the fact that even a few people who were vaccinated have become infected shows how many people have been exposed to the virus [...] For every person who's vaccinated who comes down with measles you can assume that between 40 to 80 people who were exposed Link - ( New Window )
I've had a pretty much libertarian bent. I'm basically an individualist, never even joined a club or voluntarily joined a union, and rebelled at anyone telling me what to do. I have evolved over these many years to the view that we have progressed past the frontier era where the only one to suffer the consequences of our decisions and actions was ourselves, so leave me alone.
Distasteful as it is, government is necessary for a large diverse society. Rules for the individual in matters that affect society as a whole is one of the primary functions of government. It is unfortunate that it is seldom perfect, and we must remain vigilant against these imperfections, but it is a mistake to oppose rules just for the sake of rebellion against being told what we must do.
If the rules are in place to protect and promote the welfare of our fellow citizens and society as a whole, then scrutinize their utility, effectiveness and wisdom with an eye to guarding against unnecessary impingement on individual freedom, but don't simply and blindly rail against "big government" as a matter of principle.
My sentiment is with those who want total control over what is put in their body, and in my gut it seems like a thing the government should not interfere with. But an objective evaluation of the situation, studies, data, and expert guidance, tells me that individualist sentiment is putting the rest of us at risk. We should have a say about being exposed to this risk, and a legitimate function of government is protecting citizens from harm that results from a minority of other citizens exercising their perceived rights.
This is a good study. I suspect there are more babies of older fathers born now than in the past thus accounting for some (though probably not all) of the increased incidence of autism. Link - ( New Window )
I've had a pretty much libertarian bent. I'm basically an individualist, never even joined a club or voluntarily joined a union, and rebelled at anyone telling me what to do. I have evolved over these many years to the view that we have progressed past the frontier era where the only one to suffer the consequences of our decisions and actions was ourselves, so leave me alone.
Distasteful as it is, government is necessary for a large diverse society. Rules for the individual in matters that affect society as a whole is one of the primary functions of government. It is unfortunate that it is seldom perfect, and we must remain vigilant against these imperfections, but it is a mistake to oppose rules just for the sake of rebellion against being told what we must do.
If the rules are in place to protect and promote the welfare of our fellow citizens and society as a whole, then scrutinize their utility, effectiveness and wisdom with an eye to guarding against unnecessary impingement on individual freedom, but don't simply and blindly rail against "big government" as a matter of principle.
My sentiment is with those who want total control over what is put in their body, and in my gut it seems like a thing the government should not interfere with. But an objective evaluation of the situation, studies, data, and expert guidance, tells me that individualist sentiment is putting the rest of us at risk. We should have a say about being exposed to this risk, and a legitimate function of government is protecting citizens from harm that results from a minority of other citizens exercising their perceived rights.
So consider smoking.
Put it in your body if you like. But be prepared to pay exorbitant taxes to cover the real cost of smoking - the health effects that follow, cancer & emphysema.
So skip the vaccines, but please be prepared to pay the fines necessary to cover the real costs. Treatment for your child and other children who get sick.
very libertarian over the last 5 years. BUT that does not mean my wishes and rights should infringe up others. People seem to think that they have the ultimate right to do what they want but then want others to cover their asses when it goes bad.
Sorry but if you want top not vaccinate fine. There's got be some island we did nuclear testing on we can dump there people on.
The Jackses don't know the identity of the vaccine refusers who put their children in danger, but Anna Jacks said she knows what she would say to them if she ever met them.
"Your children don't live in a little bubble. They live in a big bubble and my children live inside that big bubble with your children," she said. "If you don't want to vaccinate your children, fine, but don't take them to Disneyland."
But Dr. Jack Wolfson said it's the Jacks family who should keep themselves at home, not him.
Wolfson, an Arizona cardiologist, refuses to vaccinate his two young sons. He said the family that didn't vaccinate and endangered the Jacks children did nothing wrong.
"It's not my responsibility to inject my child with chemicals in order for [a child like Maggie] to be supposedly healthy," he said. "As far as I'm concerned, it's very likely that her leukemia is from vaccinations in the first place."
"I'm not going to sacrifice the well-being of my child. My child is pure," he added. "It's not my responsibility to be protecting their child."
CNN asked Wolfson if he could live with himself if his unvaccinated child got another child gravely ill.
"I could live with myself easily," he said. "It's an unfortunate thing that people die, but people die. I'm not going to put my child at risk to save another child."
He blamed the Jacks family for taking Maggie to the clinic for care.
"If a child is so vulnerable like that, they shouldn't be going out into society," he said.
Despite a recent measles outbreak in California, a Valley doctor believes children should not get vaccinated and that they should be getting this kind of infection.
"We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it," said Dr. Jack Wolfson of Wolfson Integrative Cardiology in Paradise Valley.
Wolfson does not believe in vaccination. "We do not need to inject chemicals into ourselves and into our children in order to boost our immune system," he said.
The cardiologist also believes the key is to have a healthy immune system. In order to have that, he says, you have to avoid chemicals, get enough sleep, exercise, take good supplements, and have proper nutrition.
"I'm a big fan of what's called paleo-nutrition, so our children eat foods that our ancestors have been eating for millions of years," he said. "That's the best way to protect."
My sentiment is with those who want total control over what is put in their body, and in my gut it seems like a thing the government should not interfere with. But an objective evaluation of the situation, studies, data, and expert guidance, tells me that individualist sentiment is putting the rest of us at risk. We should have a say about being exposed to this risk, and a legitimate function of government is protecting citizens from harm that results from a minority of other citizens exercising their perceived rights.
Good point. We really need some pre-requisites to living in this country and this would apply to everyone legal or not. Although we have our freedom, a list of things that are not debatable. The list would include vaccines for certain diseases.
RE: And I guess this jackass Wolfson has been making his rounds lately... Â
Despite a recent measles outbreak in California, a Valley doctor believes children should not get vaccinated and that they should be getting this kind of infection.
"We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it," said Dr. Jack Wolfson of Wolfson Integrative Cardiology in Paradise Valley.
Wolfson does not believe in vaccination. "We do not need to inject chemicals into ourselves and into our children in order to boost our immune system," he said.
The cardiologist also believes the key is to have a healthy immune system. In order to have that, he says, you have to avoid chemicals, get enough sleep, exercise, take good supplements, and have proper nutrition.
"I'm a big fan of what's called paleo-nutrition, so our children eat foods that our ancestors have been eating for millions of years," he said. "That's the best way to protect."
Link - ( New Window )
I looked this guy up (http://www.wolfsonintegrativecardiology). Not surprising, he's not an MD, he's a DO -- the doctors who believe that spine adjustments will cure cancer or some shit like that.
Republican Sen. Rand Paul is standing by his statement that most vaccinations should be "voluntary," telling CNBC that a parent's choice not to vaccinate a child is "an issue of freedom."
In an interview with the network Monday, Paul said that vaccines are "a good thing" but that parents "should have some input" into whether or not their children must get them.
And he gave credence to the idea - disputed by the majority of the scientific community - that vaccination can lead to mental disabilities.
"I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," he said. Link - ( New Window )
I can understand the "vaccines should be voluntary" argument, but anyone who still thinks vaccines are to blame for autism, etc should be automatically prohibited from running for POTUS.
my primary care physician is a DO, who also happens to be a world class doctor. Practically every top-rated Doctor in every specialty on the UES or UWS knows and respects him, and I have gotten top-rated referrals in 6 different disciplines, including my knee replacement. He diagnosed my son's wheat allergy when his top-rated pediatrician missed it--and the symptoms started disappearing in about 3 weeks. Virtually every orthopedist at Special Surgery gets referrals from him and refers back. He is a board certified referring physician at Weill-Cornell.
DO's that stick to what they know can be a really important adjunct to what other doctors provide, INCLUDING spinal manipulation and cranial-sacral manipulation, which can work wonders with certain types of head and neck pain. And, some Eastern medicine that some DO's integrate into their work does actually do something.
But yeah, there are a lot of quacks. It really isn't easy to find a good one and separate them out from the wackos. Same with chiropractors at a lower level, only it's even harder to find a quality one.
RE: RE: And I guess this jackass Wolfson has been making his rounds lately... Â
Despite a recent measles outbreak in California, a Valley doctor believes children should not get vaccinated and that they should be getting this kind of infection.
"We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it," said Dr. Jack Wolfson of Wolfson Integrative Cardiology in Paradise Valley.
Wolfson does not believe in vaccination. "We do not need to inject chemicals into ourselves and into our children in order to boost our immune system," he said.
The cardiologist also believes the key is to have a healthy immune system. In order to have that, he says, you have to avoid chemicals, get enough sleep, exercise, take good supplements, and have proper nutrition.
"I'm a big fan of what's called paleo-nutrition, so our children eat foods that our ancestors have been eating for millions of years," he said. "That's the best way to protect."
Link - ( New Window )
I looked this guy up (http://www.wolfsonintegrativecardiology). Not surprising, he's not an MD, he's a DO -- the doctors who believe that spine adjustments will cure cancer or some shit like that.
Sam! You of all people should know better than that. A DO goes through the exact same training as an MD but does a concentration in the musculoskeletal system. Not excusing that nut, but there's nothing lacking in a DO's training
He has my full trust when it comes to infectious diseases. But it seems like everything else he tries to write-off as a ruptured disc here or a ruptured disc there. I’d have to be a rodeo star to have ruptured as many discs as he thinks I have.
I can say with confidence that they divide into two camps: those who use spinal and cranial-sacral manipulation as an adjunct to traditional medicine, and those who have pretty much abandoned mainstream western medicine.
Then again, there's a very large proportion of traditional MDs who believe that Osteopathy and eastern medicine have absolutely no value, so there are nut jobs and extremists on both sides.
RE: Mike, having used DO's most of my adult life... Â
I can say with confidence that they divide into two camps: those who use spinal and cranial-sacral manipulation as an adjunct to traditional medicine, and those who have pretty much abandoned mainstream western medicine.
Then again, there's a very large proportion of traditional MDs who believe that Osteopathy and eastern medicine have absolutely no value, so there are nut jobs and extremists on both sides.
That's not been my experience. I only know a couple of DOs (although I've talked with many), and I haven't seen any indication that they practice any differently than MDs. My PCP is a DO who is part of a practice that consists mostly of MDs. And if I'm not mistaken, he runs the residency program at the local hospital that consists of MDs. And in almost 30 years he has never suggested anything close to a "manipulation", even when I had severe back problems, he sent me for imaging studies and then referred me to a surgeon ... same as an MD would have done.
comes from within a milieu of distrust and hatred of the government, of science and of other public institutions.
It is a good thing to have a healthy amount of skepticism about any powerful institution, but the outright paranoia and anger that has been engendered toward both government as a whole and science/intellectuals seems to drive otherwise reasonable people to support unreasonable positions.
There is no rational argument against immunization. All there is to argue against it is emotive based anecdotal evidence. Yet, because "they" tell you to do something, like a defiant child some will refuse.
I don't think it's as easy a call as some make it out to be... Â
for a perfectly healthy child it should be a non-issue. Get your kid vaccinated or forfeit access to public school, etc etc. But doctors are not necessarily going to be unanimous as to who is or isn't healthy enough to be vaccinated and in close cases where there is a legit controversy over the appropriateness of vaccination I think the parents absolutely should have a say.
for a perfectly healthy child it should be a non-issue. Get your kid vaccinated or forfeit access to public school, etc etc. But doctors are not necessarily going to be unanimous as to who is or isn't healthy enough to be vaccinated and in close cases where there is a legit controversy over the appropriateness of vaccination I think the parents absolutely should have a say.
For children with legitimate medical concerns there is absolutely a place for choice. However, this problem is not stemming from that - it's from healthy children going without the shots because their parents have been hoodwinked by anti-science agenda peddling idiots.
and in multinational corporations is healthy when intelligently considered. Skepticism in science, a deeply disturbing trend among even those that would seemingly know better, is a tragic disgrace...
and in multinational corporations is healthy when intelligently considered. Skepticism in science, a deeply disturbing trend among even those that would seemingly know better, is a tragic disgrace...
and in multinational corporations is healthy when intelligently considered. Skepticism in science, a deeply disturbing trend among even those that would seemingly know better, is a tragic disgrace...
Exactly...thank you.
And as it relates to the CA law allowing these dingleberries to send their kids to school w/o vaccinations, this place is the epicenter of ignorance-fueled political correctness, or maybe politically correctness-fueled ignorance, or both.
We just got an email from our kids schools over the weekend that there are now cases in their schools. Oh what a shock...the disease is alive and well where the stupidity is greatest !
And, in particular, immune responses to them. I absolutely know the benefits of vaccination.
And yet, I'm opposed to mandatory vaccination. I think it should be the parents choice.
However, choices have consequences. I think unvaccinated children should not be allowed to schools, amusement parks, public places, etc. also, other parents and children and regular adults who might come into contact with unvaccinated people should be informed.
It's your choice, but the vaccine choice should be intertwined with choosing to be a part of a society. IMO
RE: I think I'm pretty well versed on infectious diseaes Â
And, in particular, immune responses to them. I absolutely know the benefits of vaccination.
And yet, I'm opposed to mandatory vaccination. I think it should be the parents choice.
However, choices have consequences. I think unvaccinated children should not be allowed to schools, amusement parks, public places, etc. also, other parents and children and regular adults who might come into contact with unvaccinated people should be informed.
It's your choice, but the vaccine choice should be intertwined with choosing to be a part of a society. IMO
I'm ok with this...as parents if you choose not to vaccinate your kids, then they shouldn't be allowed to partake in public locations. However, then wouldn't this start a firestorm of "discrimination" suits?
child in a locked car with the windows closed engine off and it's over 90 degrees outside ? Why shouldn't it be a parents right to go shopping with their kid in a car?
and sometimes they misdiagnose not through incompentancy but external factors. However Science is science and the facts are facts. You can find anecdotal instances that counter truths but that doesn't make the truth less true
So is it fair to fine a parent for not vaccinating? Â
Sounds terrble, but society must bear the costs for an individuals decision. And they are considerable.
Maybe they can't be fined, but if I were their insurer, I would make their premiums very uncomfortable. Like driving, if you are higher risk, you pay more.
RE: I think I'm pretty well versed on infectious diseaes Â
And, in particular, immune responses to them. I absolutely know the benefits of vaccination.
And yet, I'm opposed to mandatory vaccination. I think it should be the parents choice.
However, choices have consequences. I think unvaccinated children should not be allowed to schools, amusement parks, public places, etc. also, other parents and children and regular adults who might come into contact with unvaccinated people should be informed.
It's your choice, but the vaccine choice should be intertwined with choosing to be a part of a society. IMO
In theory, I agree.
Unfortunately that's not even close to practical for a variety of reasons, the least of which is that it would be next to impossible to enforce.
now and then just to inform these morons that the diseases ARE dangerous and their kids need to be vaccinated unless they have some kind of health issue that would make the vaccine bad for them.
It's bad enough we have poor kids and illegal immigrants who aren't vaccinated. But these affluent families really piss me off:
I talked to a public health official and asked him what's the best way to anticipate where there might be higher than normal rates of vaccine noncompliance, and he said take a map and put a pin wherever there's a Whole Foods. I sort of laughed, and he said, "No, really, I'm not joking." It's those communities with the Prius driving, composting, organic food-eating people.
In some schools, up to 60 to 70 percent of parents have filed these PBEs, indicating a vaccination rate as low as that of Chad or South Sudan. Unlike in Santa Monica, however, parents in South Sudan have trouble getting their children vaccinated because of an ongoing civil war.
And lo, it is these very same L.A. neighborhoods that are experiencing a resurgence of diseases like whooping cough, otherwise known as pertussis. Measles cases have also hit a high in California this year.
RE: I think I'm pretty well versed on infectious diseaes Â
And, in particular, immune responses to them. I absolutely know the benefits of vaccination.
And yet, I'm opposed to mandatory vaccination. I think it should be the parents choice.
However, choices have consequences. I think unvaccinated children should not be allowed to schools, amusement parks, public places, etc. also, other parents and children and regular adults who might come into contact with unvaccinated people should be informed.
It's your choice, but the vaccine choice should be intertwined with choosing to be a part of a society. IMO
I agree with them not being allowed in school however the rest mentioned would simply not be practical to be able to enforce.
RE: So is it fair to fine a parent for not vaccinating? Â
Sounds terrble, but society must bear the costs for an individuals decision. And they are considerable.
Maybe they can't be fined, but if I were their insurer, I would make their premiums very uncomfortable. Like driving, if you are higher risk, you pay more.
I agree. It's not just the children of the anti-vaccine parents that are harmed by their parents ignorant position but the rest of society as well. It's in everyone's interst to raise the vaccination rates as high as possible.
1) Heightened focus on the incredibly incompetent and payed-for study that created the autism mythology, and more scripts designed to help people understand that it was nothing more than a hoax.
2) Better focus on getting people to understand how heard immunity works, and their individual complicity if they help undermine herd immunity.
3) Pulling politicians out of the woodwork who pander to the anti-vaxxer population. Two politicians put their feet deep into their mouths on the subject yesterday, and are going to have to dial back really hard if they want to remain in the running for higher office. I don't care which party they are part of. Pandering is pandering. The odd thing is that the anti-Vaxxers, themselves, do not fall easily into one political cohort or another, unless you define "conspiracy theorists" as a political cohort.
Btw, there is an anti-vaxxer cohort in New York City, in about 24 private schools. The Rudolph Steiner school is kinda like ground zero. Public schools make parent vaccinate. Private schools have vast philosophical as well as religious exemptions.
[quote]NYC public schools require vaccinations for all students and grant religious and medical exceptions rarely. Only 0.19 percent of public school students received the religious exemption this year, while 0.01 percent were granted a medical exemption.
But private schools may accept nearly any medical and religious exception they deem worthy, and more than 90 private schools in the city report vaccination rates for their children below the recommended 95 percent last year. For 24 of those schools, the rates dipped below 80 percent.
At the Rudolf Steiner School on East 79th Street, which is part of a global system of schools founded by the decidedly anti-vaccination philosopher of the same name, only 76 percent of students have been fully vaccinated.
At the Rudolf Steiner School, 24 percent of kids aren’t vaccinated.
School officials are quick to point out that Rudolf Steiner is in compliance with state reporting laws. But that’s only because it’s provided doctor’s notes for those 24 percent of unvaccinated students, such as saying that an allergy to eggs prevents them from being given shots.[quote]
One of the ironies, of course, is that it's relatively rich, well-educated NYC family population that is putting everyone else at risk. On the other hand, all it will take is for herd immunity to fail at a single private school for a full-blown shooting war to start, with injections as the weapons of choice.
If you force certain clusters to vaccinate without convincing them, some clusters of anti-vaxxer parents will simply home school, and then dump their un-vaccinated kids into the public in non-school situations.
Yes, there are some of those. There is also a substantial number of DOs who chose this path because they wanted to get training in a more complete approach to medicine, including some that are shunned in traditional medical schools such as Eastern medicine approaches.
I will restate it again, phrased slightly differently: My particular DO is a teaching professor at Cornell Weill who is universally admired by hundreds of mainstream orthopedists, neurologists, heart doctors, skin doctors, hand surgeons, pediatricians, ENT specialists/allergists, eye doctors, etc. My family--and some friends--have gotten referrals to near-world-class MDs and surgeons in all of these specialties, including some of the very best at Special Surgery. They all hold him in at least a bit of awe for how much he knows. How many generalist MDs do you know with that level of reputation?
One of the wonderful things about starting with a really smart DO--and there are some who aren't, to be sure--is that it tends to reduce the risk of a surgical solution being considered early in the process. My guy guards against that.
In the Very New Testament, in the Book of Injections. It is truly miraculous that they foretold infectious diseases and responses. Here is a link to some key research. Link - ( New Window )
In the Very New Testament, in the Book of Injections. It is truly miraculous that they foretold infectious diseases and responses. Here is a link to some key research. Link - ( New Window )
Republicans want to return government to the 18th century Â
If there are any other fans of AE Houseman here, you will find the story told in verse, but there is a legend about Mithridates, who lived about a hundred years before Christ was born. As the story goes, he was so fearful of being poisoned by would-be usurpers that he periodically ingested small amounts of various poisons and toxins, thereby building up an immunity to them.
Quote:
There was a king reigned in the East:
There, when kings will sit to feast,
They get their fill before they think
With poisoned meat and poisoned drink.
He gathered all that springs to birth
From the many-venomed earth;
First a little, thence to more,
He sampled all her killing store;
And easy, smiling, seasoned sound,
Sate the king when healths went round.
They put arsenic in his meat
And stared aghast to watch him eat;
They poured strychnine in his cup
And shook to see him drink it up:
They shook, they stared as white's their shirt:
Them it was their poison hurt.
-I tell the tale that I heard told.
Mithridates, he died old.
RE: Republicans want to return government to the 18th century Â
So it's only appropriate that they bring back smallpox. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, it's good enough for us.
um, go fuck yourself? Unless you can point to a Republican quote advocating the return of smallpox.
It's simply the logical extension of their argument. You should be able to do whatever you want with government interfering and telling you want to do.
The only thing worse than libertarians who take freedom too far is people on the other side of the spectrum who think every Republican or Conservative is against everything.
But continuing with your dumbass game, the 18th century brought about the Constitution and Bill of Rights as well as our independence from monarchy and tyranny. Although the logical extension for you would be a rejection of the latter, I am astounded that you would likewise dismiss the former.
Sounds terrble, but society must bear the costs for an individuals decision. And they are considerable.
Maybe they can't be fined, but if I were their insurer, I would make their premiums very uncomfortable. Like driving, if you are higher risk, you pay more.
If you are a small government person, like I am, I can see the fine being political kryptonite. I am pro-vax but believe that a parent has a right to choose whether to vaccinate their children, provided however, that the Government restricts their ability to do certain things that would potentially expose that child to other people who are not vaccinated for medical reasons or are too young to be vaccinated. If someone wants to go off the grid and stay non-vaccinated, see no reason why the Government should require them to do so.
However, I do believe that if a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child (not including categories where documented medical reasons prevent vaccination) and allows their child to cause another child to be exposed to an otherwise preventable illness, then the exposed child should have a cause of action for common law negligence (or a statutory claim, if a law is passed) against the parent of the non-vaccinated child. Naturally, it might be difficult to prove, but certainly not impossible and (in the case where the exposed child suffers serious injury) could be viable.
After a few of those lawsuits, we will see whether the convictions of people who rely on medical advice from a Singled Out playmate withstand having to put their money where their mouthes are.
Ignorance and political agenda aside, you are talking about libertarians, not Republicans. Plus a small handful of panderers.
Republicans and libertarians are becoming more and more indistinguishable.
Only to a weak-minded idealogue such as yourself.
And if you think some of these anti-vaxxers don't pull the same lever as you do, pay closer attention.
Although, I'm sure this a-hole can only view the world through the prism of stereotype, here are the demographics described in one of the earlier linked articles. Sounds like it would fit into his nice, tight compartmentalized tinker toy box, doesn't it?
Quote:
The anti-vaccine movement can largely be traced to a 1998 report in a medical journal that suggested a link between vaccines and autism but was later proved fraudulent and retracted. Today, the waves of parents who shun vaccines include some who still believe in the link and some, like the Amish, who have religious objections to vaccines. Then there is a particular subculture of largely wealthy and well-educated families, many living in palmy enclaves around Los Angeles and San Francisco, who are trying to carve out “all-natural” lives for their children.
Ear infections occur in about one out of every 10 children with measles and can result in permanent hearing loss.
As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.
For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.
Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) is a very rare, but fatal disease of the central nervous system that results from a measles virus infection acquired earlier in life. SSPE generally develops 7 to 10 years after a person has measles, even though the person seems to have fully recovered from the illness.
Let me just point this out. From a public choice Â
perspective, mandatory taxes and/or fines can yield significantly more government intrusion than a mandatory act.
The "collector of record" for the vaccine is a step removed from a governmental authority; the doctor. The "collector of record" for the tax/fine is a governmental authority itself.
Oftentimes, this leads to more long-term government intrusion than a mandated outcome.
I am autistic and it never ceases to amaze me how scared anti-vaxxers are of autism. How they have no idea how completely ridiculous and offensive they are being I will never understand. They rather have dead children than have children like me and that just makes me sad, especially since that fear has absolutely no basis and puts so many lives at risk. I think about my mom and dad saying and doing the things they do and I feel very defeated and worthless. I can’t imagine how the autistic children of anti-vaxxers feel!
But, fine. If they want me to be a monster, I’ll be a monster.
It may not be fair but fundamentalist Christians are thought of as the anti-science crowd and so would be thought to be anti-vacine (even if they aren't over represented).
It may not be fair but fundamentalist Christians are thought of as the anti-science crowd and so would be thought to be anti-vacine (even if they aren't over represented).
Again, I don't think skepticism towards vaccination stems from being "anti-science." It's more the result of caution, skepticism, or outright paranoia towards chemicals, the companies who manufacture them, and/or the processes and mechanisms that approve their safety.
It may not be fair but fundamentalist Christians are thought of as the anti-science crowd and so would be thought to be anti-vacine (even if they aren't over represented).
Again, I don't think skepticism towards vaccination stems from being "anti-science." It's more the result of caution, skepticism, or outright paranoia towards chemicals, the companies who manufacture them, and/or the processes and mechanisms that approve their safety.
Again, I don't think skepticism towards vaccination stems from being "anti-science." It's more the result of caution, skepticism, or outright paranoia towards chemicals, the companies who manufacture them, and/or the processes and mechanisms that approve their safety.
I'm not sure that it isn't anti-science when the scientific community at large has stated the importance and safe-nature of vaccination but you still disregard it because of something you read online or something someone from your mom's group told you. That in essence is anti-science.
There is no healthy skepticism about most current vaccinations. They have DECADES of peer-reviewed studies (by individuals beyond governmental authority), and have come to the same conclusions.
we will see an increase in parents vaccinating their children. Lets be perfectly honest. There are probably plenty that had only small reservations about having their children vaccinated and figured the likelihood of them ever getting something like measles was highly improbable so why take the risk. Once it becomes apparent that there is a greater possibility of their child contracting the decease that fear will surpass the small fear of having them vaccinated.
To an extent IMO many were being selfish and counting on the rest of the population to take care o the problem and they could free ride along with the herd. But they will be now be more scared that isn't working any longer and act in their own self interest as a result.
Of course there always will be others that nothing will convince.
influx of child immigrants? There was talk at the time that many were not vaccinated and had measles.
I don't know, but even if so I doubt too many immigrants have the wherewithal to enroll their children in private schooling or homeschool so this would be easily solved it all schools made certain every student has been vaccinated prior to allowing entrance.
Again, I don't think skepticism towards vaccination stems from being "anti-science." It's more the result of caution, skepticism, or outright paranoia towards chemicals, the companies who manufacture them, and/or the processes and mechanisms that approve their safety.
I'm not sure that it isn't anti-science when the scientific community at large has stated the importance and safe-nature of vaccination but you still disregard it because of something you read online or something someone from your mom's group told you. That in essence is anti-science.
That's certainly true when applied towards those who think they know vaccines cause more harm than good, especially when the basis of this supposed knowledge tends to be an alarmist website or Twitter post.
Shit, I don't want to make it sound like I'm sticking up for these guys anymore. I just don't like reflexive "anti-___________!" accusations being tossed about when there are other considerations, which probably leads to a reflexive reaction on my own part, and I'm stopping.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I wonder if this has to do with the Â
I don't know whether to commend you or shake my head. If T-Bone or other Black posters had to put up with Ebonics printed every 5th thread, I think it would stop being funny. Why you put up with it is your business, but enough is enough
I don't give a fuck what you like, what you don't like. What your favorite TV show is What the last book you read, whether you are into women or men. In other words I don't give a fuck about you
I don't give a fuck what you like, what you don't like. What your favorite TV show is What the last book you read, whether you are into women or men. In other words I don't give a fuck about you
in the clearest possible terms in lieu of drawing you pictures, go on with whatever it is that you do while you are awake and good luck with whatever it is. I mean that with all the sincerity I can muster typing
but one year we should get together and watch "A Christmas Story". It's a favorite yuletide movie of mine and we can share a cup of egg nog and maybe spoon or something. Just to be in a happy place.
If you can't laugh at the absurd but harmless stereotyping of race, Â
You're going to get pissed off a lot. If people want to actuallu get racist, Im sure my response will be a bit different, but are these ribbing really something to get offended by? Not to me.
Just trying to add a little humor to the situation to lighten things up. You asked for someone to say something funny and original, my corny joke was about as old an unoriginal as it gets. Oh never mind.
influx of child immigrants? There was talk at the time that many were not vaccinated and had measles.
\
Texas Observer - July 10, 2014 Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet, a Fox News commentator and former director of the ultra-conservative political group Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, writes in the McAllen Monitor that measles is among the “diseases the United States had controlled or virtually eradicated” that are “carried across the border by this tsunami of illegals.”
Fact check: UNICEF reports that 93 percent of kids in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are vaccinated against measles. That’s better than American kids (92 percent).
Furthermore, it’s absurd to claim that the U.S. has eradicated measles while Central America has not. In fact, measles outbreaks have resurged in some American cities. By contrast, according to the World Health Organization, neither Guatemala nor Honduras has had a reported case of measles since 1990.
come across the Atlantic, they bring hard work and a can do spirit. All the bad illegal immigrants come from the South. They bring disease and laziness and mooching off the government teat
influx of child immigrants? There was talk at the time that many were not vaccinated and had measles.
\
Texas Observer - July 10, 2014
Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet, a Fox News commentator and former director of the ultra-conservative political group Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, writes in the McAllen Monitor that measles is among the “diseases the United States had controlled or virtually eradicated” that are “carried across the border by this tsunami of illegals.”
Fact check: UNICEF reports that 93 percent of kids in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are vaccinated against measles. That’s better than American kids (92 percent).
Furthermore, it’s absurd to claim that the U.S. has eradicated measles while Central America has not. In fact, measles outbreaks have resurged in some American cities. By contrast, according to the World Health Organization, neither Guatemala nor Honduras has had a reported case of measles since 1990.
Are there contrary stats? Link - ( New Window )
Pretty sure I also made this point earlier in this thread, but without linking evidence, so thank you for helping to put to bed the tired "hordes of unwashed immigrants spreading disease" spin that certain pseudo-news organizations want to spread.
Not to get TOO political, but Rand Paul asked for it. Â
The AAPS is a wacko conspiracy theorist group, with which Rand Paul has a 25-year-plus relationship as member and relatively frequent speaker.
From Wiki, but it can easily be confirmed elsewhere:
Quote:
While AAPS describes itself as "non-partisan", the organization is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative. The AAPS opposed the Social Security Act of 1965 which established Medicare and Medicaid, arguing that "the effect of the law is evil and participation in carrying out its provisions is, in our opinion, immoral", and encouraged member physicians to boycott Medicare and Medicaid. AAPS argues that individuals should purchase medical care directly from doctors, and that there is no right to medical care. The organization requires its members to sign a "declaration of independence" pledging that they will not work with Medicare, Medicaid, or even private insurance companies.
AAPS opposes mandated evidence-based medicine and practice guidelines, criticizing them as a usurpation of physician autonomy and a fascist merger of state and corporate power driven by the pharmaceutical industry. Other procedures that AAPS opposes include abortion and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception. AAPS also opposes electronic medical records as well as any "direct or de facto supervision or control over the practice of medicine by federal officers or employees."
On October 25, 2008 the AAPS website published an editorial implying that Barack Obama was using Neuro-linguistic Programming, "a covert form of hypnosis", to coerce people to vote for him in his 2008 presidential campaign.
Of course they (and Rand Paul) are anti-vaxxers, because you can't confirm hundreds of millions of vaccinations without electronic records.
The group has a standing claim, which it has never retracted, that illegals caused an outbreak of 7,000 cases of leoprosy in 3 years. That is actually the 30-year number, with no discernible increase in the rate of infection.
The public record of Rand Paul's speeches to this group are already causing severe damage within Republican circles.
--that human activity has not contributed to climate change, and that global warming will be beneficial and thus not a cause for concern (ed. note: tell that to Bangladesh--and Miami.) ;
--that HIV does not cause AIDS;
--that the "gay male lifestyle" shortens life expectancy by 20 years.
"I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related -- I did not allege causation, Paul said. "I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated."
The Kentucky Republican, who is mulling a 2016 presidential bid, said that he received a booster shot on Tuesday for vaccinations he got for a trip to Guatemala last year.
And he tweeted a photo of his trip to the doctor:"
Senator Rand Paul ✔ @SenRandPaul
Follow
Ironic: Today I am getting my booster vaccine. Wonder how the liberal media will misreport this?
5:30 PM - 3 Feb 2015
"I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related -- I did not allege causation, Paul said. "I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated."
The Kentucky Republican, who is mulling a 2016 presidential bid, said that he received a booster shot on Tuesday for vaccinations he got for a trip to Guatemala last year.
And he tweeted a photo of his trip to the doctor:"
Senator Rand Paul ✔ @SenRandPaul
Follow
Ironic: Today I am getting my booster vaccine. Wonder how the liberal media will misreport this?
5:30 PM - 3 Feb 2015
Listen to Deirdre Imus on Imus in the Morning on this subject. She is a raving lunatic. Would not even let the sane person in the discussion talk. Imus had to cut the mic on her.
You're going to get pissed off a lot. If people want to actuallu get racist, Im sure my response will be a bit different, but are these ribbing really something to get offended by? Not to me.
Of course, the liberal media doesn't need to say anything. They just have to go to your speeches to the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, and to your interviews while you were running for Senator. And to the long list of wacko positions from an organization you formally associated with since at least 1990.
Quote:
The first sort of thing you see with martial law is mandates, and they’re talking about making it mandatory...
The whole problem is not necessarily good versus bad on vaccines, it’s whether it should be mandatory or the individual makes the decision. And sometimes you want to not be the first one to get a new procedure, you want to see if it works well before you choose.
Even hard-core conservatives including neo-cons such as John Podhoretz are now taking potshots at him.
Quote:
That is why Rand Paul’s response to the Christie kerfuffle was so revelatory and so damaging to the Kentucky senator’s desire to establish himself as the more mainstream face of the libertarian perspective that made his father Ron such a powerful fund-raiser and vote-getter in 2008 and 2012.
“For the most part, [vaccination] ought to be voluntary,” Paul said in what has to be considered one of the most irresponsible remarks ever uttered by a major American politician.
Christie stepped in it by trying to be polite on a subject where he should’ve been more plain-spoken.
Paul stepped in it by showing us what he really believes.
Translation: Paul needs to focus on getting re-elected as a Senator, not on becoming the prsidential candidate.
not merely Headhunter who might explode, but others as well, to ABC's "Fresh Off the Boat". The commercials make it look like there might be one or two...million stereotypes.
don't bother me, the repeated use of the same unoriginal stereotype that is mind numbing in its lack of creativity and humor bothers me. Shock the world and come up with something we haven't seen or reads million times before. If you do, I will applaud you
John Podhoretz and his ilk hate Rand Paul and libertarianism. Of course they're taking shots at him. And his comment about the media is legitimate given that most of the antivaxxer crew is on the left, and are pandered to quite a bit by major Dems like Hillary and Obama.
RE: Im wondering what the reaction is going to be Â
not merely Headhunter who might explode, but others as well, to ABC's "Fresh Off the Boat". The commercials make it look like there might be one or two...million stereotypes.
I expect either a comedy with sharp humor and wit successfully targeting the stereotype of Asian immigrants or a disaster that just furthers the stereotype of Asian immigrants with weak attempt at cheap humor. My money is on the latter.
RE: So far, I think I am going to be a Walker fan, Â
don't bother me, the repeated use of the same unoriginal stereotype that is mind numbing in its lack of creativity and humor bothers me. Shock the world and come up with something we haven't seen or reads million times before. If you do, I will applaud you
Ha. I think you rigged that just to save yourself from applauding. I don't think it's even possible by definition to come up with an original stereotype.
Since anti-vaxxers don't know how to read, I'll do them a favor Â
don't bother me, the repeated use of the same unoriginal stereotype that is mind numbing in its lack of creativity and humor bothers me. Shock the world and come up with something we haven't seen or reads million times before. If you do, I will applaud you
Ha. I think you rigged that just to save yourself from applauding. I don't think it's even possible by definition to come up with an original stereotype.
Original stereotype...isn't that an oxymoron? By definition all stereotypes are unoriginal since it's "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."
It is ridiculous for any of these candidates to suggest Â
we shouldn't be vaccinating our children, and voters should remember it when they go the polls.
Of course, it was also ridiculous years earlier when candidate Obama and Hilary Clinton both suggested there were dangers to vaccinations... but I guess since Jenny McCarty and her Hollywood clan were also making noise about it back then... it wasn't worth covering in the press to the same degree.
John Podhoretz and his ilk hate Rand Paul and libertarianism. Of course they're taking shots at him. And his comment about the media is legitimate given that most of the antivaxxer crew is on the left, and are pandered to quite a bit by major Dems like Hillary and Obama.
To be fair, many mainstream Libertarians have a ton of issues with their platforms and their cult-like mentality.
They have ignored the teachings of Hayek, and latch onto the extremely warped messages of Friedman and Ayn Rand, who violated a lot of their own principles over the years (biographies of Rand don't paint a flattering picture of how she treated people who utilized their free will to disagree with parts of her messages).
Plus, a lot of mainstream Libertarians often violate their own principles. Every answer is about personal freedoms, and yet when it comes to certain issues (abortions and immigration, to name but 2), they typically swing to positions that aren't congruent with their underlying message.
The selective Libertarianism is not an issue, but they fail to realize that social restrictions by stigma or demagoguery are nearly as bad as misguided actions by a governmental authority. And they often utilize their platforms to cause some pretty major harms.
That's why I truly admire the true Libertarians (the consistent ones). I don't agree with their message, but they believe in personal freedoms, except in the case of significant societal externalities. And both the Pauls are not in this group.
Well, on the last, you have to allow that opinions can change Â
it might get long. At least, the split will be more ideologically predictable, I think, because the science is so intertwined with economics and that's not the case with MMR.
it took a beating when it was called Global Warming.Made it too easy for the anti science crowd on a freezing day in winter in the cold weather states to scoff at Global Warming
a political standpoint. Everyone, at least at first prior to all the blowback, was rushing to take the libertarian stance on this - but its not the popular view to have on this issue. Vaccines are kind of like the political smell test to see what politicians are willing to pander shamelessly even in the face of science. Rand Paul and Chris Christie each failed miserably.
RE: This whole vaccination thing has been very interesting from Â
a political standpoint. Everyone, at least at first prior to all the blowback, was rushing to take the libertarian stance on this - but its not the popular view to have on this issue. Vaccines are kind of like the political smell test to see what politicians are willing to pander shamelessly even in the face of science. Rand Paul and Chris Christie each failed miserably.
MS and WV do not allow philosophical or religious exemptions, and as a result those two states have some of the highest vaccination rates in the country. They may have a problem with fat and diabetes, but they are leading the way in this particular area. CA is now considering joining that front, which I wholeheartedly endorse. link - ( New Window )
areas of discussion here I have been one of the more libertarian voices putting my opinions out there for the pubic of BBI to dissect, so I'm not sure I feel comfortable with some of what I have been reading here.
I actually agree with public vaccination policy. It's proven science, and although it does come dangerously close to lines in the sand that I would rather the government not be able to cross when it comes to the rights of the individual to decide for themselves how best to pursue their own aims, including the ares of health and personal wellbeing, I feel like robust vaccination policy is in the best interest of country and society at large, and while forced medicine by and large is something to be avoided, this issue falls on the line of the sand of public good.
Many libertarians, if you like the label, feel that way, by the way
blind ideology is destructive. The basic idea of a forced medical treatment of any kind would generally go against libertarian ideals, but many of us are thinking, rational people, who come to our views for a reason.
We are not all anti-science, paranoid whatever...................
Children should be vaccinated. There should be high standards as to which vaccinations should be mandated, and it should be a process of validation under perpetual and thorough review as like minded people such as myself entrust the powers that be to walk that fine line in the area of public good.
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
More unoriginal Asian stereotype joke...but this time by a head of state (Argentina).
Quote:
Embattled Argentine President Cristina Fernandez, while on a state visit to China seeking badly needed investment, caused a furor Wednesday by joking about her hosts' accents on Twitter.
Fernandez tried to mimic a Chinese accent by switching "r's" with "l's" in a tweet in Spanish that translates as: "Did they only come for lice and petloleum."
A few minutes later, she added: "Sorry, the levels of ridiculousness and absurdity are so high they can only be digested with humor."
The tweets came as she met with Chinese President Xi Jinping.
As of late Wednesday, there was no official response from China about the comments by Fernandez, a prolific tweeter who has 3.53 million followers.
But that didn't stop the Twitterverse in the South American country and beyond from exploding with criticism of what many considered a racist tweet.
"Cristina Fernandez's lack of tack and respect is incredible," wrote @FaundezLafarga. "She goes to China looking for (economic) agreements and she makes fun of their accents."
@GuyChazan wrote: "Faux pas in China. Really, this sort of joke went out of fashion in the 70s."
Rather a moronic thing to do during your visit to an Asian nation that you are seeking investments from. Link - ( New Window )
Really, this sort of joke went out of fashion in the 70s." Â
Did it go out of fashion? Or did it lose its racist bite? It's a silly joke that people tell at the expense of Asian immigrants...sort of like the whole dogs and cats for dinner joke that gets thrown around every once in a while. In the end, they're dumb and silly but nothing to get all worked up about.
Hopefully you don't suffer from the half-blind yellow fever that a lot of people seem to suffer from. Sheesh...have you seen some of the ugly Asian chicks that non-Asian people date?
Hopefully you don't suffer from the half-blind yellow fever that a lot of people seem to suffer from. Sheesh...have you seen some of the ugly Asian chicks that non-Asian people date?
that's a position that has been espoused by numerous politicians of all stripes before, it has become well nigh untenable now because of the outbreak but depending on how it is phrased (you could permit parental choice but make access to certain services - eg public school - contingent on the choices they make) I don't think it is manifestly unreasonable.
What Paul said was much worse, and from a man who should know better.
Elected officials are swayed by people and money and insert themselves into scientific questions to the detriment of public health. We have that issue in NYS where there's this huge and vocal group that have hoodwinked politicians to force the state to allow some wacky and potentially dangerous treatments for a vague syndrome that they attribute to Lyme Disease. They're moving on to Congress in the form of a couple Congressmen here who they've convinced to advocate for them. Scientists and infectious disease docs are upset but they are, by nature, sucky advocates and do not play the political game well. Point being, politicians don't know science but they do impact it.
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
Ronnie, ever hear about the Chinese guy at the eye doctor? Â
The doctor told him "I found out what the problem is. You have cataracts." The Chinese guy says "I don't have cataract, I drive a Rincoln Continental."
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
There's lots of vaccines...do you make them all mandatory? Yearly flu shots? Any and every? Who decides?
It's not easy at least for me to say the gov't can force a foreign substance into your body. Even though I think that people who don't choose it on their own are irresponsible dumbasses. So maybe non-vaccinators from all human/public contact is unenforceable...although it works for schools. But most people, I think, will do what the laws say so even an unenforceable law would likely catch most people and the herd should take care of those who flout it.
RE: Ronnie, ever hear about the Chinese guy at the eye doctor? Â
The doctor told him "I found out what the problem is. You have cataracts." The Chinese guy says "I don't have cataract, I drive a Rincoln Continental."
and other workers at our local hospital who refuse to get a flu shot. That's crazy and irresponsible, IMO, especially considering that these are people who should be trained enough to know better. But the hospital has a rule that those who don't get the shot have to wear a mask while at work or dealing with the public. It's a compromise that doesn't include mandatory vaccination but does help to protect public health and I believe they get pretty good compliance.
seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
There's lots of vaccines...do you make them all mandatory? Yearly flu shots? Any and every? Who decides?
It's not easy at least for me to say the gov't can force a foreign substance into your body. Even though I think that people who don't choose it on their own are irresponsible dumbasses. So maybe non-vaccinators from all human/public contact is unenforceable...although it works for schools. But most people, I think, will do what the laws say so even an unenforceable law would likely catch most people and the herd should take care of those who flout it.
Those are very serious and legitimate concerns, concerns I share. As I said earlier, the process by which vaccines are adopted into any sort of mandatory program must be under public scrutiny, and under constant evaluation. I will never be fully comfortable with the idea of a government telling it's people what medical procedures they must follow through with as part of some social contract, but when it comes to vaccines I think it makes sense for me to budge on this issue. With the cavaet that great care must be taken to controll the process
the role of the Internet in driving false ideas, bad research, and dangerous responses. The initial study, as noted below, was on 12 children. That's right, 12. And also of noted, there is a time correlation between vaccines and the onset of autism: Autism tends to show symptoms within a could of years after the age of the vaccine recipients. The same correlation can be made against beginning to crawl or walk.
Quote:
In 1998, Andrew Wakefield and 12 of his colleagues[1] published a case series in the Lancet, which suggested that the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine may predispose to behavioral regression and pervasive developmental disorder in children. Despite the small sample size (n=12), the uncontrolled design, and the speculative nature of the conclusions, the paper received wide publicity, and MMR vaccination rates began to drop because parents were concerned about the risk of autism after vaccination.[2]
Almost immediately afterward, epidemiological studies were conducted and published, refuting the posited link between MMR vaccination and autism.[3,4] The logic that the MMR vaccine may trigger autism was also questioned because a temporal link between the two is almost predestined: both events, by design (MMR vaccine) or definition (autism), occur in early childhood.
The next episode in the saga was a short retraction of the interpretation of the original data by 10 of the 12 co-authors of the paper. According to the retraction, “no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient”.[5] This was accompanied by an admission by the Lancet that Wakefield et al.[1] had failed to disclose financial interests (e.g., Wakefield had been funded by lawyers who had been engaged by parents in lawsuits against vaccine-producing companies). However, the Lancet exonerated Wakefield and his colleagues from charges of ethical violations and scientific misconduct.[6]
The Lancet completely retracted the Wakefield et al.[1] paper in February 2010, admitting that several elements in the paper were incorrect, contrary to the findings of the earlier investigation.[7] Wakefield et al.[1] were held guilty of ethical violations (they had conducted invasive investigations on the children without obtaining the necessary ethical clearances) and scientific misrepresentation (they reported that their sampling was consecutive when, in fact, it was selective). This retraction was published as a small, anonymous paragraph in the journal, on behalf of the editors.[8]
The final episode in the saga is the revelation that Wakefield et al.[1] were guilty of deliberate fraud (they picked and chose data that suited their case; they falsified facts).[9] The British Medical Journal has published a series of articles on the exposure of the fraud, which appears to have taken place for financial gain.[10–13] It is a matter of concern that the exposé was a result of journalistic investigation, rather than academic vigilance followed by the institution of corrective measures...[14]
Sorry for the length, put it makes some essential points.
And by the way, there is a wonderful opportunity for follow-up journalism/books here: The number of so-called health professionals who continue to use the Wakefield study as the case for non-Vaxx, and the number of them that flat-out lie in their work either about the status of the study or the purported existence alleged follow-up studies confirming the results.
There are hoaxes, hucksterism, fraud and flat out lying for the purpose of making a living going on here. Some so-called health professionals need to be charged with fraud. A well-publicized trial over the facts would kill this thing, right quick. Link - ( New Window )
Public health officials are investigating a “cluster of measles” at a KinderCare Learning Center in northwest suburban Chicago.
According to the Cook County Department of Public Heath, five infants at the Palatine day care may have measles. Diagnoses for two children were confirmed and test results for three remaining cases are pending, though those cases were diagnosed based on clinical and epidemiological criteria, officials said.
Health officials said the five children are all under the age of one. continued - ( New Window )
vaccines can and should be mandated, if that's the direction you want to go in.
You can look at the efficacy rates of the vaccines themselves on something other than an annual basis. You can look at the ability of the disease itself to mutate, which lessens the reliability of any vaccine. You can look at a cost-effectiveness ratio. You can look at some measure of quality-adjusted life years (QALY's, DALY's, DALE's).
You can also look at the target populations. Vaccines mandated for children that are effective (which doesn't include the flu) extends life by a lot and is highly effective. The same vaccines for older cohorts may not be mandatory.
that has debunked a proven vaccine for any disease since the onset of 20th century?Is there a hero out there or a group of heroes that proved that say whopping cough vaccine did not work or the side effects outweighed the benefit?
Sure, there are vaccines that are not very effective Â
flu was just mentioned. Although, you do really get some protection from this year's vaccine depending on the flu strain you might be infected with. There are also individuals who do not get adequate protection from a given vaccine.
that has debunked a proven vaccine for any disease since the onset of 20th century?Is there a hero out there or a group of heroes that proved that say whopping cough vaccine did not work or the side effects outweighed the benefit?
BCG for TB. Not a true vaccine, granted, but it has been given to hundreds of millions of kids, mostly via mandate, with no real benefit.
Thats a problem with regulations: someone has to set them. And they are never perfect. Since it involves our little Johnnie's it will always be heated.
Guardisil is a proven vaccine against HPV that causes cervix cancer, the mostly deadly gynecologic cancer in the world. It is not well received because it has to be given to girls (or boys) before they become sexually active. In many cultures, parents can't accept that concept for their little Suzie.
This article warns that many adults should get vaccinated again Â
doesn't every state have similar laws?
or are these home schooled kids with parents against it?
Just not sure who the people are against it other than individualized whackos.
The fairly large and growing outbreak of measles that started in Disneyland CA? It's been in the news recently, the extraordinary return of an eradicated deadly illness because people are stupid.
It was actually 1964's cause, but tragically we have to discuss it again...
when our daughter was ready for her MMR, of course we had friends of family saying "John's daughter was normal until they had that shot.. I heard the same was for Jane's son" and so on.
that struck fear in my wife. we went through with the shots, but it resulted in a very long conversation with our pediatrician on the chemistry of the shots.
My wife felt strongly..or at least SAFER if we could split the shots into 3 shots instead of a "cocktail" of shots. We couldn't, so of course we went through with it.
I was pissed off when these people would put thoughts into my wife's head.. shame on THEM for trying to put our daughters health in jeopardy by talking about something they know nothing about.
The anti-vax movement should be renamed
Maybe anti-science? Anti-intellect?
Link - ( New Window )
The anti-vax movement should be renamed
Maybe anti-science? Anti-intellect?
Pro-disease.
Sheeeeit.
More than half the planet would get a Darwin for not understanding science.
"what if I'M responsible for making this life difficult for our daughter??"
I really wanted to kick people's asses lol
They are strange. Now if measles had continued its downward trend, it would be reasonable to forgo that vaccination. Not today.
We will never be able to forego the measles vaccine. It had been practically eliminated here...
Quote:
Anti-vaxxers are some of the most willfully stupid people in the country, I despise that movement.
They are strange. Now if measles had continued its downward trend, it would be reasonable to forgo that vaccination. Not today.
No it wouldn't.
Thinking like that is the reason it's making a comeback.
doesn't every state have similar laws?
or are these home schooled kids with parents against it?
Just not sure who the people are against it other than individualized whackos.
Brilliant analogy.
But there is a legitimate concern about when/how often vaccines are dispensed. For example, my son arrived six weeks early. He was given the MMR shot soon after he was born and had a horrible reaction to it. For three days, he had a fever and just moaned. It scared the hell out of us. Some pediatricians who are very pro-vaccine argue that the MMR shouldn't be given so soon or have issues with the combination being introduced at the same time.
Other pediatricians wonder if booster shots are truly needed if the titer count shows that they are unnecessary.
As someone who has worked closely with pharmaceutical lobbyists, I can tell you that they do everything in their power to sweep under the rug vaccine-related incidents, not only in the United States, but in other countries. We're being lobbied hard right now to pressure the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare to downplay a recent vaccine-related death.
If you YouTube search anti-vaxxer videos, you would want to punch each of those idiots in the face through your screen.
But there is a legitimate concern about when/how often vaccines are dispensed. For example, my son arrived six weeks early. He was given the MMR shot soon after he was born and had a horrible reaction to it. For three days, he had a fever and just moaned. It scared the hell out of us. Some pediatricians who are very pro-vaccine argue that the MMR shouldn't be given so soon or have issues with the combination being introduced at the same time.
Other pediatricians wonder if booster shots are truly needed if the titer count shows that they are unnecessary.
As someone who has worked closely with pharmaceutical lobbyists, I can tell you that they do everything in their power to sweep under the rug vaccine-related incidents, not only in the United States, but in other countries. We're being lobbied hard right now to pressure the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare to downplay a recent vaccine-related death.
Our son (first child) was born five weeks early and they wanted to do the same. We refused and said we would wait until he was a little stronger and bring him back for it and I can tell you they put unbearable pressure on you if you try and do that. If I hadn't been mid forties with a lot of "life's experience" I would have not been confident enough to withstand it alone like that. They really made me to feel like I was doing some horrid thing and when that didn't work they tried to financial pressure me by saying how much additional they would charge me to take him home and return instead of allowing it to be part of the birth cost which I of course had already paid for.
Thanks goodness I was so much older and not the age of most first time fathers who easily may have been less sure of himself and more likely to follow authority when pressured so strongly, or financially strapped like so many first time parent often find themselves because our son ended up having troubles from being so weak, so severe that at one point I truly feared that he wouldn't make it. Worst moment of my life. If he would have had to go through any reaction anywhere close to what your son had to endure he would not have been strong enough to fight it and I am certain he would have died because he was so very close to it without having done so.
We did bring him back after a few months when we were convinced he was strong enough to handle any sort of reaction if it would occur, but I have to tell you they made me feel like and awful father, and almost criminal by not fallowing their guidelines, it was unreal and very hard to stand up to when initially refusing.
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No it was after that. I can't recall exactly which shots they were so maybe it was something other than MMR but it was something that covered a number of things ( I want to say they may have mentioned hepatitis being one but can't say for sure) and they insisted he shouldn't leave without first receiving.
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Ludicrous.
Anti-vaccine doctor revels in his notoriety - ( New Window )
Immunization Schedule - ( New Window )
“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.
“I feel all sleepy, ” she said.
In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.
I actually had measles as a young adult. I thought I had it as a child, but apparently not. Of course we did have the vaccine. We all had the mumps, german measles and chicken pox. Which now I have shingles from, thanks!
I can see being cautious about vaccines when your kids are infants, but before they go to school or daycare, they have to be vaccinated.
Link - ( New Window )
Vaccine Critics Turn Defensive Over Measles - ( New Window )
I guess I'm a bit slow this AM, but you'll have to expand on that comment.
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“There is absolutely no reason to get the shot,” said Crystal McDonald, whose 16-year-old daughter was one of 66 students sent home from Palm Desert High School for the next two weeks because they did not have full measles immunizations.
I guess I'm a bit slow this AM, but you'll have to expand on that comment.
Her daughter had to miss two weeks of school, but there's absolutely no reason to get vaccinated....I know its pretty subtle...and its early
Right you are, Steverino. I guess I'm not the only one who is a bit slow this AM. Fortunately, you aren't.
No. Why was it funny "for the Times?" The comment was neither subtle, nor particularly funny (sad, perhaps, even mind-boggling). Would you not have expected the Times to print such a statement? Your readership wants to know.
I'm working through mione now. I was celebrating another contract extension from one of those evil giant Pharmaceutical companies and, perhaps, overdid it just a bit. It's a lesson I very occasionally have to re-learn, but fortunately this morning's lesson is terribly taxing.
LOL, not to worry I'm the crème de la crème of typos.
A person diagnosed with measles went to Penn Station this week and boarded an Amtrak train, possibly exposing fellow passengers, New York health officials said Friday.
"Anyone traveling on Amtrak train #283 from Penn Station in NYC to Albany on January 25, 2015, and who is not immune to measles or not sure of their measles immunity, should contact their primary care physician if they become ill with fever," the New York State Department of Health said in a statement.
The person who took the 1:20 p.m. train and exited in Rhinecliff, N.Y., was previously at Bard College in Dutchess County, where the diagnosis was made.
continued ... - ( New Window )
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..."mine" and "isn't terribly taxing." See what I mean?
LOL, not to worry I'm the crème de la crème of typos.
I almost forgot; Goober says, "Hey!"
That sprang to mind because I suddenly remember an Andy Griffith show where the County Nurse was trying to vaccinate farmers in the area against Tetanus, and the farmers (one Rafe Hollister, I believe) used some of the same arguments we hear from the anti-vaxers (i.e., "I ain't never been sick a day in my life!")
It's kind of sad, as an above comment from Rob in CT/NY alluded to, that we're revisiting some of that same thinking in our supposedly more enlightened times.
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Was that just flat out funny then?
No. Why was it funny "for the Times?" The comment was neither subtle, nor particularly funny (sad, perhaps, even mind-boggling). Would you not have expected the Times to print such a statement? Your readership wants to know.
Then maybe its the hangover. Congrats on the extension. Calling your business partner "evil" in jest suggests you're working on a sense of humor.
The Times isn't known for its humor. There wasn't anything more in the parentheses. When a writer debunks its subject's quote in the very same sentence, its funny. That the subject was a sad moron makes it Onion-like.
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In comment 12116755 WideRight said:
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Was that just flat out funny then?
No. Why was it funny "for the Times?" The comment was neither subtle, nor particularly funny (sad, perhaps, even mind-boggling). Would you not have expected the Times to print such a statement? Your readership wants to know.
Then maybe its the hangover. Congrats on the extension. Calling your business partner "evil" in jest suggests you're working on a sense of humor.
The Times isn't known for its humor. There wasn't anything more in the parentheses. When a writer debunks its subject's quote in the very same sentence, its funny. That the subject was a sad moron makes it Onion-like.
Actually, I have a finely-honed sense of humour, although it can be over-subtle at times. And I disagree that The Times isn't known for humour...it just isn't obvious, like the Onion.
If we examine the entire quote, we see that humour, largely in the eye of the beholder and certainly present here, isn't so much an objective as is pointing out the sad lack of cognition on the part of Ms. McDonald and, by extension, the whole anti-vax "movement."
The fact that she states a very obvious reason for getting vaccinated, not being tossed out of school, just makes the counterpoint even more effective.
“There is absolutely no reason to get the shot,” said Crystal McDonald, whose 16-year-old daughter was one of 66 students sent home from Palm Desert High School for the next two weeks because they did not have full measles immunizations.
After researching the issue and reading information from a national anti-vaccine advocacy group, Ms. McDonald said she and her husband, a chiropractor, decided to raise their four children without vaccines. She said they ate well and had never been to the doctor, and she insisted that her daughter was healthier than many classmates. But when the school sent her home with a letter, Ms. McDonald’s daughter was so concerned about missing two weeks of advanced-placement classes that she suggested simply getting a measles inoculation.
“I said, ‘No, absolutely not,’ “ Ms. McDonald said. “I said, ‘I’d rather you miss an entire semester than you get the shot.’ “
Perhaps if Ms. McDonald had a farm, she'd better understand inter-relationships and the associated risks she's laying on her children and anyone with whom they come in contact. Instead, she winds up with egg on her face.
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On an Italian Court determining a direct link between the MMR and Autism Link - ( New Window )
Ludicrous.
Hey...but didn't their legal system also convict a bunch of scientists for not predicting an earthquake that killed a bunch of people? Or was that another crazy European nation?
My sister in law does exactly the same thing...has four kids and "homeschooled" all of them because she doesn't want anyone to tell her kids what to do. Her two older kids were vaccinated and are fine. Her two youngest ones have not been vaccinated yet her youngest has autism. Even though she recognizes that vaccination had nothing to do with the autism, she still refuses to vaccinate the two younger ones.
That entire family is just a damn mess.
Well...that explains how stupid that legal systems is then.
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In comment 12116674 NYG11 said:
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On an Italian Court determining a direct link between the MMR and Autism Link - ( New Window )
Ludicrous.
Hey...but didn't their legal system also convict a bunch of scientists for not predicting an earthquake that killed a bunch of people? Or was that another crazy European nation?
Sick Sad World - ( New Window )
I've seen that as well. Some of these people really get into the whole Life Coaching market (in which essential oil market is a huge part of it) and basically surround themselves with others with similar mentality. It's like the worst form of peer pressure and groupthink.
People do die from the measles. Do some research.
Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.
The disease remains one of the leading causes of death among young children globally, despite the availability of a safe and effective vaccine. Approximately 145 700 people died from measles in 2013 – mostly children under the age of 5.
{/quote]
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Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.
The disease remains one of the leading causes of death among young children globally, despite the availability of a safe and effective vaccine. Approximately 145 700 people died from measles in 2013 – mostly children under the age of 5.
Measles is highly contagious; 90% of people who come in contact with someone with measles contract it, and can last up to 2 hours in the air or on surfaces. And, while measles may not be on the level of Ebola (seriously?), it often leads to secondary illnesses that do kill.
Namely, pneumonia or bronchitis.
People that "don't get" why measles are bad benefit from about a half a century of immunizations that have led to this development.
World Health Organization ... Updated November 2014 ...
Key facts
* Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
* In 2013, there were 145 700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
* Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
* In 2013, about 84% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 73% in 2000.
* During 2000-2013, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 15.6 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.
------------------------------------------
Measles is a highly contagious, serious disease caused by a virus. In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.
Link - ( New Window )
If you choose to listen to others who claim to have read the literature, and then choose to believe them without reading it yourself, do not expect any benefit from all that work that was done.
If you chose to accept something that is promoted without any basic or clinical research supporting it, just don't pretend you know anything. And if you listen to soemone who says they know something when there is no knowledge, do not expect any benefit.
If it harms you, buyer beware.
Plus, what mindset is it that simply because we suffered through an illness, future generations should as well? The benefits of medical advancement are so that future generations do not have to suffer through similar afflictions that we did.
Measles being one.
For the life of me, I can't fathom the notion that because we have developed a highly successful vaccine against a highly contagious disease, because people lived through it and "no one around me died", we have an out against vaccination.
Perhaps (and maybe just perhaps), vaccinations also benefit these mal-nourished and under-developed country? Where sanitation and other health care services are nowhere near adequate? But nah, fuck them. America.
But to try to use two of the most deadly diseases in human history to compare the danger of measles seems...hmmm...ridiculous? It's almost like saying living in the urban sprawls of Chicago is perfectly safe because compared to Areppo, Syria, not too many people get killed in Chicago (even though that city has one of the highest gun deaths in the nation).
1) Science
2) Statistics
3) Medicine
People are scared because they are ill-informed (or mis-informed), which is why we have experts to help guide us to the correct decisions.
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In comment 12116756 BMac said:
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In comment 12116755 WideRight said:
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Was that just flat out funny then?
No. Why was it funny "for the Times?" The comment was neither subtle, nor particularly funny (sad, perhaps, even mind-boggling). Would you not have expected the Times to print such a statement? Your readership wants to know.
Then maybe its the hangover. Congrats on the extension. Calling your business partner "evil" in jest suggests you're working on a sense of humor.
The Times isn't known for its humor. There wasn't anything more in the parentheses. When a writer debunks its subject's quote in the very same sentence, its funny. That the subject was a sad moron makes it Onion-like.
Actually, I have a finely-honed sense of humour, although it can be over-subtle at times. And I disagree that The Times isn't known for humour...it just isn't obvious, like the Onion.
If we examine the entire quote, we see that humour, largely in the eye of the beholder and certainly present here, isn't so much an objective as is pointing out the sad lack of cognition on the part of Ms. McDonald and, by extension, the whole anti-vax "movement."
The fact that she states a very obvious reason for getting vaccinated, not being tossed out of school, just makes the counterpoint even more effective.
“There is absolutely no reason to get the shot,” said Crystal McDonald, whose 16-year-old daughter was one of 66 students sent home from Palm Desert High School for the next two weeks because they did not have full measles immunizations.
After researching the issue and reading information from a national anti-vaccine advocacy group, Ms. McDonald said she and her husband, a chiropractor, decided to raise their four children without vaccines. She said they ate well and had never been to the doctor, and she insisted that her daughter was healthier than many classmates. But when the school sent her home with a letter, Ms. McDonald’s daughter was so concerned about missing two weeks of advanced-placement classes that she suggested simply getting a measles inoculation.
“I said, ‘No, absolutely not,’ “ Ms. McDonald said. “I said, ‘I’d rather you miss an entire semester than you get the shot.’ “
Perhaps if Ms. McDonald had a farm, she'd better understand inter-relationships and the associated risks she's laying on her children and anyone with whom they come in contact. Instead, she winds up with egg on her face.
How ironic thaT her husband is a chiropractor. A group of supposed physicians whose own profession is pretty much a sham.
But fear in face of overwhelming science and proof isn't a rational concept. It's born out of either willful ignorance or some other preconceived biases. So if you are going to let that fear be the pretext to your decision that may or may not impact those around you, then I have no problem with those individuals (and their kids) being forced to be vaccinated if they want to use public services. However, if you want to hole up somewhere, go ahead.
Good lord. Maybe people can educate themselves instead of being scared of life-saving medicine? Them not getting vaccinated affects everyone, not just their selfish, ignorant family. I will give you credit for dismissing hundreds of years of data on measles death because nobody you know died from it, though. Kudos.
What is the point of this? The more people that are vaccinated, the closer we get to herd immunity.
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when someone comes to teh US who has not vaccinated.
What is the point of this? The more people that are vaccinated, the closer we get to herd immunity.
For some reason, I get the vibe the answer includes some version of "shoot Hispanic immigrants".
This is a problem of empty headed affluent people for the most part.
And this is why we have anti-vax dipshits.
Maybe my children are too young or have compromised immune systems and can't get vaccinated, genius...
PS I doubt there is anyone here that would do something to their children if they truly believed it would harm them, you aren't alone in that.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Personally I'm more concerned with the precedent it would set if we allow the government to dictate what must go into our bodies.
FWIW, I'm very pro vaccine.
I like the idea of making it a tax, similar to the ACA.
Get vaccinated or pay a tax that will help offset the costs of public health.
And, of course, is based on no science that is credible. And, unfortunately, those who choose not to comply don't suffer the consequences of their actions; innocents (children) do, including those who aren't their children.
No one is saying that measles is Ebola or something that you will definitely die from. But people DO die from it. And having it is no picnic. Plus the fact that healthy kids not getting vaccinated will likely get exposed and can spread it to other kids who can't get vaccinated and who's health is not as good.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Try walking into your local police station smoking a joint or huffing some coke. After all, it's your body, and it's none of their business making such things illegal.
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Then you have more than measles to worry about. Maybe we should mandate that everyone wear surgical masks and rubber suits when going into public.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Try walking into your local police station smoking a joint or huffing some coke. After all, it's your body, and it's none of their business making such things illegal.
There is a huge difference between being prohibited from putting something in your body and being forced to.
Like with many debates, this one is interesting because there isn't one side that is entirely correct. Sure, some vaccines are mostly safe and effective. However, some other vaccines are neither entirely safe nor proven to be effective.
People should be free to live their own lives. Parents should be allowed to make medical decisions for their children.
Like with many debates, this one is interesting because there isn't one side that is entirely correct. Sure, some vaccines are mostly safe and effective. However, some other vaccines are neither entirely safe nor proven to be effective.
People should be free to live their own lives. Parents should be allowed to make medical decisions for their children.
But if your idiotic decision based on nothing more than fear or junk science gets my child sick, I will make sure to kick the shit out of your selfish ass.
It's all everyone elses' problem until you have to face the horrors of seeing your child suffer through something that was preventable from the start. So fuck your freedom when it comes to vaccination.
It's not the vaccines I have an issue with. My kids are vaccinated.
It's the precedent it sets that say government can tell you what you have to put into your body that worries me.
You can't tell the difference between the government controlling public water systems and being forced to put something into your own body?
Again, I'm 100% pro vaccines and think everyone who can should receive them. I just hate the idea of losing autonomy of my own body.
Anyhow, why let things like reasoned debate and civil liberties get in the way of your opinions?
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In comment 12117044 Beer Man said:
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Then you have more than measles to worry about. Maybe we should mandate that everyone wear surgical masks and rubber suits when going into public.
Kicker it’s called personal freedom/choice, my body is my body and I have the right to decide what goes into it; and I owe no one an explanation when I say no. Would you rather let the government health system decide and determine what vaccinations we all should be subject to and then mandate them? And what about those who choose not to comply? Send out the goon squads to hold them down and forcibly vaccinate them. Once you give that freedom up, what’s next?
Try walking into your local police station smoking a joint or huffing some coke. After all, it's your body, and it's none of their business making such things illegal.
There is a huge difference between being prohibited from putting something in your body and being forced to.
For the purposes of this argument and the way it's been framed, there's no difference at all.
Personally, I'm pro-life. But, yes, I feel that government has no right to outlaw abortion.
Like with many debates, this one is interesting because there isn't one side that is entirely correct. Sure, some vaccines are mostly safe and effective. However, some other vaccines are neither entirely safe nor proven to be effective.
People should be free to live their own lives. Parents should be allowed to make medical decisions for their children.
I get it. I don't trust doctors. Most are stuck in one mode when it comes to treatment. I've spent a lot of time looking at alternative medicine and diet and a lot of it makes sense and I see it creeping into traditional medicine.
But vaccines are proven to prevent disease. The hype against them is just that. The government can't force you to vaccinate your kids. But they can refuse to allow them in schools or other places where they are required. Your choice.
Anyhow, why let things like reasoned debate and civil liberties get in the way of your opinions?
Yeah...that post in response to yours should have ended with "general you" and not specifically you. I should have specifically stated that...as I can completely see how that came out. My apology if you thought I was making a threat at you...it was a general sentiment at anyone who puts my kids in danger through their own selfishness.
And civil liberties be damned if your (general your) actions/inactions put others in danger. To choose not to vaccinate your children because of shit science and some talking twats should automatically negate your right to be a parent.
How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? - ( New Window )
Maybe as fuck trophies?
Btw, it is hard to do double-blind studies wrt the supposed MMR/autism link, but their are so many easy ways around
that, such as the impressive studies comparing the US and Denmark.
Comment: Denmark is a first world country based in Western Europe. Their schedule appears far more reasonable than ours. They have also been reported to have a much lower rate of autism than the U.S. Do they know something we don’t?
What was that Danish vaccine schedule that Generation Rescue recommended?
DTaP at 3, 5 and 12 months
Hib at 3, 5 and 12 months
IPV at 3, 5 and 12 months, plus 5 years
MMR at 15 months and 12 years
No mercury (Denmark phased that out in 1992). No birth dose of Hepatitis B. Fewer vaccines overall than in the U.S.. And the same autism prevalence of about 1%....
So, we have 1.4% in Denmark and 0.8%, nearly half the Danish prevalence, in the U.S.. Denmark had no thimerosal, no Hepatitis B shot (birth or otherwise), fewer vaccines and less aluminum exposure. And much higher reported autism prevalence...
The prevalence of childhood autism (basically what was studied in the 2003 paper) in Denmark is flat from birth cohorts 1996-2004. Flat. The prevalence of ASD’s do see a decline. That must be it! Evidence that thimerosal was causing autism in Denmark! But it isn’t. The prevalence of ASD in 2003-04 is the same as that in 1990-91, before thimerosal was removed.
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I'm a pretty staunch libraterian so while I'm not comfortable with science deniers, I'm less comfortable with the notion of government intervention in the affairs of my health. Still, I get it that non vax people can compromise vax efforts and public health. Its just that I'm more comfortable with that risk than I am with the problems I see (or imagine) with the risk of state tyranny.
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vaccination because they don't like the government and they can't differentiate between the health of their kids and their hate of all things government makes me wonder why they choose to raise kids in this country?
Maybe as fuck trophies?
Look at me! I'm special! I don't vaccinate my kids! I'm a better parent than you!
I may have missed it, but I don't believe anyone wrote they would forgo vaccinations because of "they don't like the government". People have fears and will act on them. Some are afraid of the measles vaccination, and therefore don’t get their families vaccinated. As a responsible adult you have to ask yourself how to protect your family, regardless of what others do. The answer is very simple, get your family vaccinated. That way it doesn’t matter what your neighbor does, you’re protected. RCO vaccinate your kids, and then you don’t have to worry about whose ass you’re going kick. As you’ve said the protection is there and available and the science proves it; so do the responsible thing and protect your family. Because if you don’t and someone in your family get the measles, that’s on you.
Perhaps you don't know what was one of the leading causes of death in 1900's America (up until around 1940, which is a "few generations" back)?
It was pneumonia, which is a very real worry with measles, considering, of course, that measles is a respiratory disease. You can also check out the other leading causes of death during these generations. There were a variety of respiratory illnesses (which can be the secondary infections resulting from contracting the measles) on there.
But yeah, not a worry. Jiminy christmas.
That might be true for the general public but for the very young, the elderly, the infirm and the immunocompromised a disease like the measels can and does cause death in some cases. You saw the information from the WHO further up the thread.
The whole idea of widespread vaccination is to directly protect those who can be vaccinated and indirectly protect those who cannot for medical reasons via herd immunity. That all breaks down when stupid people ignore voluminous amounts of data and general scientific consensus in order to make a selfish choice that endangers themselves and others.
-In 2014 Dr. William H. Thompson confessed that he was directed by the CDC to change the results his team had found on the MMR vaccine .His team had found that in particular among African-American males if you were vaccinated before the age of three you had a 3-4 times greater chance of developing autism. That sure sounds like a vaccine causing autism to me, oh and the particular vaccine in Dr. Wakefield's study, what a coincidence. It's funny that the major news outlets made very little mention of this, a government agency directly deceiving the American public.
You can go ahead with the attack dogs and mob mentality now which I am sure will follow, but you should know that all my children are vaccinated and I have never advised anyone not to vaccinate!
Oh and another fun fact, you CANNOT sue the pharmaceutical companies for adverse effects from a vaccine!
There are outlier quacks in every population...
Doesn't work that way. Even after the 1st shot at 12-18 months of age and the second shot at kindergarten age the vaccine is not effective for 100% of the vaccinated. It does matter what my neighbor does if I'm in that percent that the vaccine didn't work on, I'm under 12 months old or under 6 years old. Herd immunity works. Anti-vaxxers weaken it.
Does anyone deny that vaccines work? Do even the most passionate anti-vaccine folks distrust the science behind vaccinations and what makes them effective?
If that's an argument, I haven't heard anyone make it. I think their skepticism is targeted more towards those who make and sell the vaccines.
I hope to hell their suspicion and skepticism are wrong because we've opted to have every vaccine applied to our son, but it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time something was simply accepted on faith to be safe and only eventually wound up being proven not to be.
How that has suddenly become an excuse to act like an idiot and allow virtually eradicated diseases to re-emerge is beyond me. Mumps decreased in lethality - why bother? Diphtheria? Sure.
After while those 1 or 2 deaths per thousand add up, but good job, your "civil liberties" are intact.
Provide the link that you got your info from. Let's start there.
And again I am NOT against vaccines, but the schedule went out of control in 1987 to the tune of 36 vaccines by age two, vaccines have controlled a variety of deadly diseases but are we healthier as a nation, look around especially at the children auto-immune disorders are through the roof!
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What else can it be based upon? You can't prove something is entirely safe.
50-100 years from now, our grandkids or great grandkids will watch a period piece (probably a holographic one?) set in the early 2000's, and they'll say, "Wow, they actually didn't know _________ was dangerous back then?" It's pretty much inevitable. I just hope __________ isn't vaccines.
Do you know why experiments, or random selection are used? Because in large enough groups, the two groups are identical. Except...most "control" groups, those who have not had vaccines, are brought into the experiment in markedly smaller numbers.
Which means you can't ever assert a causal relationship.
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Oh no, someone on the internet threaten to kick my ass and called me names.
Anyhow, why let things like reasoned debate and civil liberties get in the way of your opinions?
Yeah...that post in response to yours should have ended with "general you" and not specifically you. I should have specifically stated that...as I can completely see how that came out. My apology if you thought I was making a threat at you...it was a general sentiment at anyone who puts my kids in danger through their own selfishness.
And civil liberties be damned if your (general your) actions/inactions put others in danger. To choose not to vaccinate your children because of shit science and some talking twats should automatically negate your right to be a parent.
Ronnie, just playing devils advocate here, but if your kids are vaccinated then they shouldn't have to worry about the unvaccinated kids, no?
Not being a shit stirrer either, just sayin. The argument by government is that YOU could die by not being vaccinated. Not that you could cause a pandemic. At least that's the story I'm always told.
The correct comparison to make is looking at population health if there was no vaccine; this is what makes vaccines immeasurably worth it.
By the way, simple statistics state that the large numbers of studies, with large populations, spanning decades established as near to scientific certainty as you can get. It's about as likely to get tossed in the garbag bin of history as the Law of Demand.
Not being a shit stirrer either, just sayin. The argument by government is that YOU could die by not being vaccinated. Not that you could cause a pandemic. At least that's the story I'm always told.
As kicker stated, who's to say that my daughter's body was able to respond properly to the vaccine? And I have a 3 month old, who is too young to get the vaccine. So until he is old enough to get it, people purposely not getting it will just put him and others in potential danger.
It's about ensuring that those who can't get the vaccine are protected.
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But vaccines are proven to prevent disease. The hype against them is just that. The government can't force you to vaccinate your kids. But they can refuse to allow them in schools or other places where they are required. Your choice.
Does anyone deny that vaccines work? Do even the most passionate anti-vaccine folks distrust the science behind vaccinations and what makes them effective?
If that's an argument, I haven't heard anyone make it. I think their skepticism is targeted more towards those who make and sell the vaccines.
I hope to hell their suspicion and skepticism are wrong because we've opted to have every vaccine applied to our son, but it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time something was simply accepted on faith to be safe and only eventually wound up being proven not to be.
Yes, there are people who doubt the vaccines work (they of course cite that they are not 100% as proof that they don't work) or worse, they say that the vaccine gives people the disease or causes autism. Now as I said, I don't have blind faith in doctors or pharmaceutical companies. But I'm more worried about getting a bad disease that I could have been vaccinated for, like tetanus. So I get the vaccine even though I do have auto-immune disorders and many people who do don't get vaccines. It's a matter of where you believe the greater risk to be. The fact that we had these vaccines and they have eradicated the disease for us for the most part, people don't understand how dangerous these diseases can be. And you have people like Beer Man say 'hey, what's the big deal, you get some spots on your face and stay home from school for a few days, relax!'. It's absurd.
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Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
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Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
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In comment 12117322 JerryNYG said:
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Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
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I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
You are skimming over the truth that they omitted data implicating the vaccine, I never said that dr Thompson recommended against vaccination, nor do I.
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In comment 12117367 gmenatlarge said:
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In comment 12117322 JerryNYG said:
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Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
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I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
You are skimming over the truth that they omitted data implicating the vaccine, I never said that dr Thompson recommended against vaccination, nor do I.
No, I'm not skimming over anything. It is a very long article explaining all the details and how Thompson was duped by the interviewer. The link was provided and there is no way that I'm going to cut and paste the whole thing. I pasted what I thought would be to the point, a quote by Thpmpson that he would never advise avoiding vaccines. I don't have the patience to or inclination to go over that long article point by point. Try reading it yourself.
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In comment 12117379 River Mike said:
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In comment 12117367 gmenatlarge said:
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In comment 12117322 JerryNYG said:
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Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
Quote:
I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
You are skimming over the truth that they omitted data implicating the vaccine, I never said that dr Thompson recommended against vaccination, nor do I.
No, I'm not skimming over anything. It is a very long article explaining all the details and how Thompson was duped by the interviewer. The link was provided and there is no way that I'm going to cut and paste the whole thing. I pasted what I thought would be to the point, a quote by Thpmpson that he would never advise avoiding vaccines. I don't have the patience to or inclination to go over that long article point by point. Try reading it yourself.
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In comment 12117390 gmenatlarge said:
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In comment 12117379 River Mike said:
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In comment 12117367 gmenatlarge said:
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In comment 12117322 JerryNYG said:
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Hmm, no agenda there. Just good, solid scientifically backed information.
Maybe but that doesn't mean the story isn't true, google dr William Thompson yourself!
And if you followed the link provided above to snopes, you will see that it's not the whole truth and that Dr Thompson has said that
Quote:
I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefit
You are skimming over the truth that they omitted data implicating the vaccine, I never said that dr Thompson recommended against vaccination, nor do I.
No, I'm not skimming over anything. It is a very long article explaining all the details and how Thompson was duped by the interviewer. The link was provided and there is no way that I'm going to cut and paste the whole thing. I pasted what I thought would be to the point, a quote by Thpmpson that he would never advise avoiding vaccines. I don't have the patience to or inclination to go over that long article point by point. Try reading it yourself.
I have read several on the incident but all you quote is the dr's recommendation while the "gist" of the matter is he admits to omitting relevant data in the study under the CDC's direction, that's the point.
And has been stated why repeatedly. If you want to utilize people as a control group, you have to have detailed information on the control groups, which is what they did not have. Again, it's basic statistics.
You can't establish a correlation OR a causation when your control group is compromised. If they told them to omit it, it's done because it's a correct (and routine) statistical procedure. Literally utilized in every study comparing two groups.
Vaccination data were abstracted from immunization forms required for school entry, and records of children who were born in Georgia were linked to Georgia birth certificates for information on maternal and birth factors. Basically, no significant associations were found between the age cutoffs examined and the risk of autism. I note that, even in the “reanalysis” by Brian Hooker, there still isn’t any such correlation for children who are not African American boys
Wakefield claims that African American boys were "neglected" [in Thompson's study]. He also claims that this is vindication for him, but, of course, it is not. Notice how he completely neglects to mention that in every other subgroup [examined in the study], even Hooker couldn’t torture the data to make it confess a relationship between age at MMR vaccination and autism in any other population other than a very small population in the study: African-American males. Whenever that happens as you slice epidemiological data finer and finer, you should be alert for the very distinct possibility that what you're really looking at is a spurious correlation. As I pointed out before, Hooker in reality merely confirmed that Wakefield was wrong about everyone except African-American males, and, given how small this subgroup was in the study, almost certainly didn’t find any evidence supporting Wakefield’s hypothesis (such as it is) for even African-American boys. Yet, Wakefield, as deluded as he is, spins it as "vindication." He even thanks Hooker for getting a "senior scientist at the CDC" to come forward and "confirm" that some of those "ideas we put forward" are true. Holy hell! Even if you spin Thompson’s statements in the most unflattering manner possible towards the CDC and his co-investigators, Thompson said nothing of the sort!
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp#CgPqAX07CvxgChGp.99
If only they understood why they were doo-doo...
Really? The only time he "went to the press" was to set the record straight on how Hooker hoodwinked him.
As the proportion of the unvaccinated population grows, however, the perceived and real risks flip in the vaccinated vs. unvaccinated populations. That is why there are clusters of unvaccinated people in little pockets of California, who talked each other out of getting their kids vaccinated, and who are now seeing a sharply higher risk of measles than in the general population. The same thing happened with polio some places in Africa, and in the US with whooping cough.
"Measles Spreads in California Due to Clusters of Unvaccinated Kids"
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"If everyone else is vaccinated, then the weak are protected, because they are surrounded with a cocoon of protection of others," Schaffner said. "The herd of strong protect the few weak." [...] measles is one of the most infectious viruses in existence. It will infect 90 percent of susceptible people if they are exposed [...] the fact that even a few people who were vaccinated have become infected shows how many people have been exposed to the virus [...] For every person who's vaccinated who comes down with measles you can assume that between 40 to 80 people who were exposed
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Distasteful as it is, government is necessary for a large diverse society. Rules for the individual in matters that affect society as a whole is one of the primary functions of government. It is unfortunate that it is seldom perfect, and we must remain vigilant against these imperfections, but it is a mistake to oppose rules just for the sake of rebellion against being told what we must do.
If the rules are in place to protect and promote the welfare of our fellow citizens and society as a whole, then scrutinize their utility, effectiveness and wisdom with an eye to guarding against unnecessary impingement on individual freedom, but don't simply and blindly rail against "big government" as a matter of principle.
My sentiment is with those who want total control over what is put in their body, and in my gut it seems like a thing the government should not interfere with. But an objective evaluation of the situation, studies, data, and expert guidance, tells me that individualist sentiment is putting the rest of us at risk. We should have a say about being exposed to this risk, and a legitimate function of government is protecting citizens from harm that results from a minority of other citizens exercising their perceived rights.
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Distasteful as it is, government is necessary for a large diverse society. Rules for the individual in matters that affect society as a whole is one of the primary functions of government. It is unfortunate that it is seldom perfect, and we must remain vigilant against these imperfections, but it is a mistake to oppose rules just for the sake of rebellion against being told what we must do.
If the rules are in place to protect and promote the welfare of our fellow citizens and society as a whole, then scrutinize their utility, effectiveness and wisdom with an eye to guarding against unnecessary impingement on individual freedom, but don't simply and blindly rail against "big government" as a matter of principle.
My sentiment is with those who want total control over what is put in their body, and in my gut it seems like a thing the government should not interfere with. But an objective evaluation of the situation, studies, data, and expert guidance, tells me that individualist sentiment is putting the rest of us at risk. We should have a say about being exposed to this risk, and a legitimate function of government is protecting citizens from harm that results from a minority of other citizens exercising their perceived rights.
So consider smoking.
Put it in your body if you like. But be prepared to pay exorbitant taxes to cover the real cost of smoking - the health effects that follow, cancer & emphysema.
So skip the vaccines, but please be prepared to pay the fines necessary to cover the real costs. Treatment for your child and other children who get sick.
Sorry but if you want top not vaccinate fine. There's got be some island we did nuclear testing on we can dump there people on.
"Your children don't live in a little bubble. They live in a big bubble and my children live inside that big bubble with your children," she said. "If you don't want to vaccinate your children, fine, but don't take them to Disneyland."
But Dr. Jack Wolfson said it's the Jacks family who should keep themselves at home, not him.
Wolfson, an Arizona cardiologist, refuses to vaccinate his two young sons. He said the family that didn't vaccinate and endangered the Jacks children did nothing wrong.
"It's not my responsibility to inject my child with chemicals in order for [a child like Maggie] to be supposedly healthy," he said. "As far as I'm concerned, it's very likely that her leukemia is from vaccinations in the first place."
"I'm not going to sacrifice the well-being of my child. My child is pure," he added. "It's not my responsibility to be protecting their child."
CNN asked Wolfson if he could live with himself if his unvaccinated child got another child gravely ill.
"I could live with myself easily," he said. "It's an unfortunate thing that people die, but people die. I'm not going to put my child at risk to save another child."
He blamed the Jacks family for taking Maggie to the clinic for care.
"If a child is so vulnerable like that, they shouldn't be going out into society," he said.
What a selfish, idiot asshole.
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"We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it," said Dr. Jack Wolfson of Wolfson Integrative Cardiology in Paradise Valley.
Wolfson does not believe in vaccination. "We do not need to inject chemicals into ourselves and into our children in order to boost our immune system," he said.
The cardiologist also believes the key is to have a healthy immune system. In order to have that, he says, you have to avoid chemicals, get enough sleep, exercise, take good supplements, and have proper nutrition.
"I'm a big fan of what's called paleo-nutrition, so our children eat foods that our ancestors have been eating for millions of years," he said. "That's the best way to protect."
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Must be the sabretooth tigers and the dinosaurs. And I don't give a damn what science says...cavemen lived during times of the dinosaurs!
My sentiment is with those who want total control over what is put in their body, and in my gut it seems like a thing the government should not interfere with. But an objective evaluation of the situation, studies, data, and expert guidance, tells me that individualist sentiment is putting the rest of us at risk. We should have a say about being exposed to this risk, and a legitimate function of government is protecting citizens from harm that results from a minority of other citizens exercising their perceived rights.
Good point. We really need some pre-requisites to living in this country and this would apply to everyone legal or not. Although we have our freedom, a list of things that are not debatable. The list would include vaccines for certain diseases.
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Despite a recent measles outbreak in California, a Valley doctor believes children should not get vaccinated and that they should be getting this kind of infection.
"We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it," said Dr. Jack Wolfson of Wolfson Integrative Cardiology in Paradise Valley.
Wolfson does not believe in vaccination. "We do not need to inject chemicals into ourselves and into our children in order to boost our immune system," he said.
The cardiologist also believes the key is to have a healthy immune system. In order to have that, he says, you have to avoid chemicals, get enough sleep, exercise, take good supplements, and have proper nutrition.
"I'm a big fan of what's called paleo-nutrition, so our children eat foods that our ancestors have been eating for millions of years," he said. "That's the best way to protect."
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I looked this guy up (http://www.wolfsonintegrativecardiology). Not surprising, he's not an MD, he's a DO -- the doctors who believe that spine adjustments will cure cancer or some shit like that.
In an interview with the network Monday, Paul said that vaccines are "a good thing" but that parents "should have some input" into whether or not their children must get them.
And he gave credence to the idea - disputed by the majority of the scientific community - that vaccination can lead to mental disabilities.
"I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," he said.
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I can understand the "vaccines should be voluntary" argument, but anyone who still thinks vaccines are to blame for autism, etc should be automatically prohibited from running for POTUS.
DO's that stick to what they know can be a really important adjunct to what other doctors provide, INCLUDING spinal manipulation and cranial-sacral manipulation, which can work wonders with certain types of head and neck pain. And, some Eastern medicine that some DO's integrate into their work does actually do something.
But yeah, there are a lot of quacks. It really isn't easy to find a good one and separate them out from the wackos. Same with chiropractors at a lower level, only it's even harder to find a quality one.
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Despite a recent measles outbreak in California, a Valley doctor believes children should not get vaccinated and that they should be getting this kind of infection.
"We should be getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, these are the rights of our children to get it," said Dr. Jack Wolfson of Wolfson Integrative Cardiology in Paradise Valley.
Wolfson does not believe in vaccination. "We do not need to inject chemicals into ourselves and into our children in order to boost our immune system," he said.
The cardiologist also believes the key is to have a healthy immune system. In order to have that, he says, you have to avoid chemicals, get enough sleep, exercise, take good supplements, and have proper nutrition.
"I'm a big fan of what's called paleo-nutrition, so our children eat foods that our ancestors have been eating for millions of years," he said. "That's the best way to protect."
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I looked this guy up (http://www.wolfsonintegrativecardiology). Not surprising, he's not an MD, he's a DO -- the doctors who believe that spine adjustments will cure cancer or some shit like that.
Sam! You of all people should know better than that. A DO goes through the exact same training as an MD but does a concentration in the musculoskeletal system. Not excusing that nut, but there's nothing lacking in a DO's training
Then again, there's a very large proportion of traditional MDs who believe that Osteopathy and eastern medicine have absolutely no value, so there are nut jobs and extremists on both sides.
Then again, there's a very large proportion of traditional MDs who believe that Osteopathy and eastern medicine have absolutely no value, so there are nut jobs and extremists on both sides.
That's not been my experience. I only know a couple of DOs (although I've talked with many), and I haven't seen any indication that they practice any differently than MDs. My PCP is a DO who is part of a practice that consists mostly of MDs. And if I'm not mistaken, he runs the residency program at the local hospital that consists of MDs. And in almost 30 years he has never suggested anything close to a "manipulation", even when I had severe back problems, he sent me for imaging studies and then referred me to a surgeon ... same as an MD would have done.
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It is a good thing to have a healthy amount of skepticism about any powerful institution, but the outright paranoia and anger that has been engendered toward both government as a whole and science/intellectuals seems to drive otherwise reasonable people to support unreasonable positions.
There is no rational argument against immunization. All there is to argue against it is emotive based anecdotal evidence. Yet, because "they" tell you to do something, like a defiant child some will refuse.
Wait! Isn't that from the Marshawn Lynch thread!
For children with legitimate medical concerns there is absolutely a place for choice. However, this problem is not stemming from that - it's from healthy children going without the shots because their parents have been hoodwinked by anti-science agenda peddling idiots.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
Exactly...thank you.
And as it relates to the CA law allowing these dingleberries to send their kids to school w/o vaccinations, this place is the epicenter of ignorance-fueled political correctness, or maybe politically correctness-fueled ignorance, or both.
We just got an email from our kids schools over the weekend that there are now cases in their schools. Oh what a shock...the disease is alive and well where the stupidity is greatest !
And yet, I'm opposed to mandatory vaccination. I think it should be the parents choice.
However, choices have consequences. I think unvaccinated children should not be allowed to schools, amusement parks, public places, etc. also, other parents and children and regular adults who might come into contact with unvaccinated people should be informed.
It's your choice, but the vaccine choice should be intertwined with choosing to be a part of a society. IMO
And yet, I'm opposed to mandatory vaccination. I think it should be the parents choice.
However, choices have consequences. I think unvaccinated children should not be allowed to schools, amusement parks, public places, etc. also, other parents and children and regular adults who might come into contact with unvaccinated people should be informed.
It's your choice, but the vaccine choice should be intertwined with choosing to be a part of a society. IMO
I'm ok with this...as parents if you choose not to vaccinate your kids, then they shouldn't be allowed to partake in public locations. However, then wouldn't this start a firestorm of "discrimination" suits?
Maybe they can't be fined, but if I were their insurer, I would make their premiums very uncomfortable. Like driving, if you are higher risk, you pay more.
And yet, I'm opposed to mandatory vaccination. I think it should be the parents choice.
However, choices have consequences. I think unvaccinated children should not be allowed to schools, amusement parks, public places, etc. also, other parents and children and regular adults who might come into contact with unvaccinated people should be informed.
It's your choice, but the vaccine choice should be intertwined with choosing to be a part of a society. IMO
In theory, I agree.
Unfortunately that's not even close to practical for a variety of reasons, the least of which is that it would be next to impossible to enforce.
It's bad enough we have poor kids and illegal immigrants who aren't vaccinated. But these affluent families really piss me off:
I talked to a public health official and asked him what's the best way to anticipate where there might be higher than normal rates of vaccine noncompliance, and he said take a map and put a pin wherever there's a Whole Foods. I sort of laughed, and he said, "No, really, I'm not joking." It's those communities with the Prius driving, composting, organic food-eating people.
In some schools, up to 60 to 70 percent of parents have filed these PBEs, indicating a vaccination rate as low as that of Chad or South Sudan. Unlike in Santa Monica, however, parents in South Sudan have trouble getting their children vaccinated because of an ongoing civil war.
And lo, it is these very same L.A. neighborhoods that are experiencing a resurgence of diseases like whooping cough, otherwise known as pertussis. Measles cases have also hit a high in California this year.
And yet, I'm opposed to mandatory vaccination. I think it should be the parents choice.
However, choices have consequences. I think unvaccinated children should not be allowed to schools, amusement parks, public places, etc. also, other parents and children and regular adults who might come into contact with unvaccinated people should be informed.
It's your choice, but the vaccine choice should be intertwined with choosing to be a part of a society. IMO
Maybe they can't be fined, but if I were their insurer, I would make their premiums very uncomfortable. Like driving, if you are higher risk, you pay more.
I agree. It's not just the children of the anti-vaccine parents that are harmed by their parents ignorant position but the rest of society as well. It's in everyone's interst to raise the vaccination rates as high as possible.
2) Better focus on getting people to understand how heard immunity works, and their individual complicity if they help undermine herd immunity.
3) Pulling politicians out of the woodwork who pander to the anti-vaxxer population. Two politicians put their feet deep into their mouths on the subject yesterday, and are going to have to dial back really hard if they want to remain in the running for higher office. I don't care which party they are part of. Pandering is pandering. The odd thing is that the anti-Vaxxers, themselves, do not fall easily into one political cohort or another, unless you define "conspiracy theorists" as a political cohort.
Btw, there is an anti-vaxxer cohort in New York City, in about 24 private schools. The Rudolph Steiner school is kinda like ground zero. Public schools make parent vaccinate. Private schools have vast philosophical as well as religious exemptions.
[quote]NYC public schools require vaccinations for all students and grant religious and medical exceptions rarely. Only 0.19 percent of public school students received the religious exemption this year, while 0.01 percent were granted a medical exemption.
But private schools may accept nearly any medical and religious exception they deem worthy, and more than 90 private schools in the city report vaccination rates for their children below the recommended 95 percent last year. For 24 of those schools, the rates dipped below 80 percent.
At the Rudolf Steiner School on East 79th Street, which is part of a global system of schools founded by the decidedly anti-vaccination philosopher of the same name, only 76 percent of students have been fully vaccinated.
At the Rudolf Steiner School, 24 percent of kids aren’t vaccinated.
School officials are quick to point out that Rudolf Steiner is in compliance with state reporting laws. But that’s only because it’s provided doctor’s notes for those 24 percent of unvaccinated students, such as saying that an allergy to eggs prevents them from being given shots.[quote]
One of the ironies, of course, is that it's relatively rich, well-educated NYC family population that is putting everyone else at risk. On the other hand, all it will take is for herd immunity to fail at a single private school for a full-blown shooting war to start, with injections as the weapons of choice.
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I will restate it again, phrased slightly differently: My particular DO is a teaching professor at Cornell Weill who is universally admired by hundreds of mainstream orthopedists, neurologists, heart doctors, skin doctors, hand surgeons, pediatricians, ENT specialists/allergists, eye doctors, etc. My family--and some friends--have gotten referrals to near-world-class MDs and surgeons in all of these specialties, including some of the very best at Special Surgery. They all hold him in at least a bit of awe for how much he knows. How many generalist MDs do you know with that level of reputation?
One of the wonderful things about starting with a really smart DO--and there are some who aren't, to be sure--is that it tends to reduce the risk of a surgical solution being considered early in the process. My guy guards against that.
Then she follows it up with, "Vaccines are just about profits."
Go to other countries where they still have polio, measles, mumps, etc. Then think about how many cases of those are in the US.
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There, when kings will sit to feast,
They get their fill before they think
With poisoned meat and poisoned drink.
He gathered all that springs to birth
From the many-venomed earth;
First a little, thence to more,
He sampled all her killing store;
And easy, smiling, seasoned sound,
Sate the king when healths went round.
They put arsenic in his meat
And stared aghast to watch him eat;
They poured strychnine in his cup
And shook to see him drink it up:
They shook, they stared as white's their shirt:
Them it was their poison hurt.
-I tell the tale that I heard told.
Mithridates, he died old.
um, go fuck yourself? Unless you can point to a Republican quote advocating the return of smallpox.
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So it's only appropriate that they bring back smallpox. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, it's good enough for us.
um, go fuck yourself? Unless you can point to a Republican quote advocating the return of smallpox.
It's simply the logical extension of their argument. You should be able to do whatever you want with government interfering and telling you want to do.
The only thing worse than libertarians who take freedom too far is people on the other side of the spectrum who think every Republican or Conservative is against everything.
I repeat...go fuck yourself.
But continuing with your dumbass game, the 18th century brought about the Constitution and Bill of Rights as well as our independence from monarchy and tyranny. Although the logical extension for you would be a rejection of the latter, I am astounded that you would likewise dismiss the former.
Republicans and libertarians are becoming more and more indistinguishable.
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Ignorance and political agenda aside, you are talking about libertarians, not Republicans. Plus a small handful of panderers.
Republicans and libertarians are becoming more and more indistinguishable.
Only to a weak-minded idealogue such as yourself.
And if you think some of these anti-vaxxers don't pull the same lever as you do, pay closer attention.
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Ignorance and political agenda aside, you are talking about libertarians, not Republicans. Plus a small handful of panderers.
Republicans and libertarians are becoming more and more indistinguishable.
Republicans are libertarians when it comes to this kind of stuff but not when it comes to the war on terror/drugs, etc.
Maybe they can't be fined, but if I were their insurer, I would make their premiums very uncomfortable. Like driving, if you are higher risk, you pay more.
If you are a small government person, like I am, I can see the fine being political kryptonite. I am pro-vax but believe that a parent has a right to choose whether to vaccinate their children, provided however, that the Government restricts their ability to do certain things that would potentially expose that child to other people who are not vaccinated for medical reasons or are too young to be vaccinated. If someone wants to go off the grid and stay non-vaccinated, see no reason why the Government should require them to do so.
However, I do believe that if a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child (not including categories where documented medical reasons prevent vaccination) and allows their child to cause another child to be exposed to an otherwise preventable illness, then the exposed child should have a cause of action for common law negligence (or a statutory claim, if a law is passed) against the parent of the non-vaccinated child. Naturally, it might be difficult to prove, but certainly not impossible and (in the case where the exposed child suffers serious injury) could be viable.
After a few of those lawsuits, we will see whether the convictions of people who rely on medical advice from a Singled Out playmate withstand having to put their money where their mouthes are.
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In comment 12122171 manh george said:
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Ignorance and political agenda aside, you are talking about libertarians, not Republicans. Plus a small handful of panderers.
Republicans and libertarians are becoming more and more indistinguishable.
Only to a weak-minded idealogue such as yourself.
And if you think some of these anti-vaxxers don't pull the same lever as you do, pay closer attention.
Although, I'm sure this a-hole can only view the world through the prism of stereotype, here are the demographics described in one of the earlier linked articles. Sounds like it would fit into his nice, tight compartmentalized tinker toy box, doesn't it?
As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.
About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.
For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.
Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) is a very rare, but fatal disease of the central nervous system that results from a measles virus infection acquired earlier in life. SSPE generally develops 7 to 10 years after a person has measles, even though the person seems to have fully recovered from the illness.
The "collector of record" for the vaccine is a step removed from a governmental authority; the doctor. The "collector of record" for the tax/fine is a governmental authority itself.
Oftentimes, this leads to more long-term government intrusion than a mandated outcome.
But, fine. If they want me to be a monster, I’ll be a monster.
Rawr, anti-vaxxers. Rawr.
Faceboook - This Week in Pseudoscience - ( New Window )
Again, I don't think skepticism towards vaccination stems from being "anti-science." It's more the result of caution, skepticism, or outright paranoia towards chemicals, the companies who manufacture them, and/or the processes and mechanisms that approve their safety.
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It may not be fair but fundamentalist Christians are thought of as the anti-science crowd and so would be thought to be anti-vacine (even if they aren't over represented).
Again, I don't think skepticism towards vaccination stems from being "anti-science." It's more the result of caution, skepticism, or outright paranoia towards chemicals, the companies who manufacture them, and/or the processes and mechanisms that approve their safety.
And that is stupid.
I'm not sure that it isn't anti-science when the scientific community at large has stated the importance and safe-nature of vaccination but you still disregard it because of something you read online or something someone from your mom's group told you. That in essence is anti-science.
There is no healthy skepticism about most current vaccinations. They have DECADES of peer-reviewed studies (by individuals beyond governmental authority), and have come to the same conclusions.
It's willful ignorance at this point.
To an extent IMO many were being selfish and counting on the rest of the population to take care o the problem and they could free ride along with the herd. But they will be now be more scared that isn't working any longer and act in their own self interest as a result.
Of course there always will be others that nothing will convince.
When in doubt, blame the Mexicans...
I don't know, but even if so I doubt too many immigrants have the wherewithal to enroll their children in private schooling or homeschool so this would be easily solved it all schools made certain every student has been vaccinated prior to allowing entrance.
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influx of child immigrants? There was talk at the time that many were not vaccinated and had measles.
When in doubt, blame the Mexicans...
Most of the immigrants were not Mexicans.
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In comment 12122592 buford said:
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influx of child immigrants? There was talk at the time that many were not vaccinated and had measles.
When in doubt, blame the Mexicans...
Most of the immigrants were not Mexicans.
Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
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Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
Yes, but you get a pass because you burn the huts of other ones. Net gain for whitey.
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In comment 12122622 Chris in Philly said:
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Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
Yes, but you get a pass because you burn the huts of other ones. Net gain for whitey.
Is it wrong I found this hilarious?
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Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
I think I'm darker than you but olive, not yellow.
Ugh...so I'm doing the dirty work for The Man? WTF?
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Yes, but you get a pass because you burn the huts of other ones. Net gain for whitey.
Ugh...so I'm doing the dirty work for The Man? WTF?
It's aways hard when you first see the light.
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Again, I don't think skepticism towards vaccination stems from being "anti-science." It's more the result of caution, skepticism, or outright paranoia towards chemicals, the companies who manufacture them, and/or the processes and mechanisms that approve their safety.
I'm not sure that it isn't anti-science when the scientific community at large has stated the importance and safe-nature of vaccination but you still disregard it because of something you read online or something someone from your mom's group told you. That in essence is anti-science.
That's certainly true when applied towards those who think they know vaccines cause more harm than good, especially when the basis of this supposed knowledge tends to be an alarmist website or Twitter post.
Shit, I don't want to make it sound like I'm sticking up for these guys anymore. I just don't like reflexive "anti-___________!" accusations being tossed about when there are other considerations, which probably leads to a reflexive reaction on my own part, and I'm stopping.
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Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
You look like you could be Hepatitis Ronnie...
I call bullshit! I can't picture you being all gangsta in the 90s.
And I never listened to Ice Cube in the 90s...I was more into country then (that's what you get when you lived in Oklahoma and Texas).
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In comment 12122622 Chris in Philly said:
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Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
You look like you could be Hepatitis Ronnie...
Not Hepatitis...just a little jaundiced.
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In comment 12122625 RC02XX said:
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In comment 12122622 Chris in Philly said:
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Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
You look like you could be Hepatitis Ronnie...
Not Hepatitis...just a little jaundiced.
I tell that jaundiced joke all the time about me. Nobody ever seems to get it.
Of course, that doesn't stop wild speculation when a simple Google search would have revealed the answer...
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Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
You couldn't pull off an epidemic because you rack disciprine.
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Sorry, when in doubt blame the dark people.
Am I considered dark? Or just have a bit of yellowish tint? You can blame me if you like.
Hey, it isn't our fault you have liver problems! You should have gotten the Hep-B vaccine.
Actually it's because my liver has taken a beating from all of the fire water...don't you know, Koreans are considered the Irish of East Asia?
Greatest karaoke singer ever ---> This Guy
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Hey, it isn't our fault you have liver problems! You should have gotten the Hep-B vaccine.
Actually it's because my liver has taken a beating from all of the fire water...don't you know, Koreans are considered the Irish of East Asia?
Then I guess we'll have to start calling you O'Ronnie? Was your mother from Killarney?
Hah....brings to mind a scene from The Ref:
-Dr. Wong? You don't look like a Wong.
Well, my mother was Irish.
-And your father?
Wasn't.
Interesting....
See, and I was complimenting you too.
And who's insulting the Irish? It's a compliment to be compared to Korea.
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I shouldn't belittle your nationality while you're busy making fun of the Irish. :)
And who's insulting the Irish? It's a compliment to be compared to Korea.
You and your twisted juche beliefs
Why do we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway?
badum-ching
Just trying to add a little humor to the situation to lighten things up. You asked for someone to say something funny and original, my corny joke was about as old an unoriginal as it gets. Oh never mind.
Texas Observer - July 10, 2014
Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet, a Fox News commentator and former director of the ultra-conservative political group Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, writes in the McAllen Monitor that measles is among the “diseases the United States had controlled or virtually eradicated” that are “carried across the border by this tsunami of illegals.”
Fact check: UNICEF reports that 93 percent of kids in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are vaccinated against measles. That’s better than American kids (92 percent).
Furthermore, it’s absurd to claim that the U.S. has eradicated measles while Central America has not. In fact, measles outbreaks have resurged in some American cities. By contrast, according to the World Health Organization, neither Guatemala nor Honduras has had a reported case of measles since 1990.
Are there contrary stats?
Link - ( New Window )
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influx of child immigrants? There was talk at the time that many were not vaccinated and had measles.
\
Texas Observer - July 10, 2014
Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet, a Fox News commentator and former director of the ultra-conservative political group Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, writes in the McAllen Monitor that measles is among the “diseases the United States had controlled or virtually eradicated” that are “carried across the border by this tsunami of illegals.”
Fact check: UNICEF reports that 93 percent of kids in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador are vaccinated against measles. That’s better than American kids (92 percent).
Furthermore, it’s absurd to claim that the U.S. has eradicated measles while Central America has not. In fact, measles outbreaks have resurged in some American cities. By contrast, according to the World Health Organization, neither Guatemala nor Honduras has had a reported case of measles since 1990.
Are there contrary stats? Link - ( New Window )
Pretty sure I also made this point earlier in this thread, but without linking evidence, so thank you for helping to put to bed the tired "hordes of unwashed immigrants spreading disease" spin that certain pseudo-news organizations want to spread.
From Wiki, but it can easily be confirmed elsewhere:
AAPS opposes mandated evidence-based medicine and practice guidelines, criticizing them as a usurpation of physician autonomy and a fascist merger of state and corporate power driven by the pharmaceutical industry. Other procedures that AAPS opposes include abortion and over-the-counter access to emergency contraception. AAPS also opposes electronic medical records as well as any "direct or de facto supervision or control over the practice of medicine by federal officers or employees."
On October 25, 2008 the AAPS website published an editorial implying that Barack Obama was using Neuro-linguistic Programming, "a covert form of hypnosis", to coerce people to vote for him in his 2008 presidential campaign.
Of course they (and Rand Paul) are anti-vaxxers, because you can't confirm hundreds of millions of vaccinations without electronic records.
The group has a standing claim, which it has never retracted, that illegals caused an outbreak of 7,000 cases of leoprosy in 3 years. That is actually the 30-year number, with no discernible increase in the rate of infection.
The public record of Rand Paul's speeches to this group are already causing severe damage within Republican circles.
Link - ( New Window )
--that human activity has not contributed to climate change, and that global warming will be beneficial and thus not a cause for concern (ed. note: tell that to Bangladesh--and Miami.) ;
--that HIV does not cause AIDS;
--that the "gay male lifestyle" shortens life expectancy by 20 years.
The Kentucky Republican, who is mulling a 2016 presidential bid, said that he received a booster shot on Tuesday for vaccinations he got for a trip to Guatemala last year.
And he tweeted a photo of his trip to the doctor:"
Senator Rand Paul ✔ @SenRandPaul
Follow
Ironic: Today I am getting my booster vaccine. Wonder how the liberal media will misreport this?
5:30 PM - 3 Feb 2015
*****************************************
Isn't that a dentist's chair?
The Kentucky Republican, who is mulling a 2016 presidential bid, said that he received a booster shot on Tuesday for vaccinations he got for a trip to Guatemala last year.
And he tweeted a photo of his trip to the doctor:"
Senator Rand Paul ✔ @SenRandPaul
Follow
Ironic: Today I am getting my booster vaccine. Wonder how the liberal media will misreport this?
5:30 PM - 3 Feb 2015
*****************************************
Isn't that a dentist's chair?
Politicians are the worst.
Hack.
Exactly.
The first sort of thing you see with martial law is mandates, and they’re talking about making it mandatory...
The whole problem is not necessarily good versus bad on vaccines, it’s whether it should be mandatory or the individual makes the decision. And sometimes you want to not be the first one to get a new procedure, you want to see if it works well before you choose.
Even hard-core conservatives including neo-cons such as John Podhoretz are now taking potshots at him.
“For the most part, [vaccination] ought to be voluntary,” Paul said in what has to be considered one of the most irresponsible remarks ever uttered by a major American politician.
Christie stepped in it by trying to be polite on a subject where he should’ve been more plain-spoken.
Paul stepped in it by showing us what he really believes.
Translation: Paul needs to focus on getting re-elected as a Senator, not on becoming the prsidential candidate.
Link - ( New Window )
I expect either a comedy with sharp humor and wit successfully targeting the stereotype of Asian immigrants or a disaster that just furthers the stereotype of Asian immigrants with weak attempt at cheap humor. My money is on the latter.
I just lost my lunch. Thanks.
Ha. I think you rigged that just to save yourself from applauding. I don't think it's even possible by definition to come up with an original stereotype.
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don't bother me, the repeated use of the same unoriginal stereotype that is mind numbing in its lack of creativity and humor bothers me. Shock the world and come up with something we haven't seen or reads million times before. If you do, I will applaud you
Ha. I think you rigged that just to save yourself from applauding. I don't think it's even possible by definition to come up with an original stereotype.
Original stereotype...isn't that an oxymoron? By definition all stereotypes are unoriginal since it's "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."
Of course, it was also ridiculous years earlier when candidate Obama and Hilary Clinton both suggested there were dangers to vaccinations... but I guess since Jenny McCarty and her Hollywood clan were also making noise about it back then... it wasn't worth covering in the press to the same degree.
To be fair, many mainstream Libertarians have a ton of issues with their platforms and their cult-like mentality.
They have ignored the teachings of Hayek, and latch onto the extremely warped messages of Friedman and Ayn Rand, who violated a lot of their own principles over the years (biographies of Rand don't paint a flattering picture of how she treated people who utilized their free will to disagree with parts of her messages).
Plus, a lot of mainstream Libertarians often violate their own principles. Every answer is about personal freedoms, and yet when it comes to certain issues (abortions and immigration, to name but 2), they typically swing to positions that aren't congruent with their underlying message.
The selective Libertarianism is not an issue, but they fail to realize that social restrictions by stigma or demagoguery are nearly as bad as misguided actions by a governmental authority. And they often utilize their platforms to cause some pretty major harms.
That's why I truly admire the true Libertarians (the consistent ones). I don't agree with their message, but they believe in personal freedoms, except in the case of significant societal externalities. And both the Pauls are not in this group.
or with the weather
or the audience.
MS and WV do not allow philosophical or religious exemptions, and as a result those two states have some of the highest vaccination rates in the country. They may have a problem with fat and diabetes, but they are leading the way in this particular area. CA is now considering joining that front, which I wholeheartedly endorse.
link - ( New Window )
I actually agree with public vaccination policy. It's proven science, and although it does come dangerously close to lines in the sand that I would rather the government not be able to cross when it comes to the rights of the individual to decide for themselves how best to pursue their own aims, including the ares of health and personal wellbeing, I feel like robust vaccination policy is in the best interest of country and society at large, and while forced medicine by and large is something to be avoided, this issue falls on the line of the sand of public good.
Many libertarians, if you like the label, feel that way, by the way
We are not all anti-science, paranoid whatever...................
Children should be vaccinated. There should be high standards as to which vaccinations should be mandated, and it should be a process of validation under perpetual and thorough review as like minded people such as myself entrust the powers that be to walk that fine line in the area of public good.
Fernandez tried to mimic a Chinese accent by switching "r's" with "l's" in a tweet in Spanish that translates as: "Did they only come for lice and petloleum."
A few minutes later, she added: "Sorry, the levels of ridiculousness and absurdity are so high they can only be digested with humor."
The tweets came as she met with Chinese President Xi Jinping.
As of late Wednesday, there was no official response from China about the comments by Fernandez, a prolific tweeter who has 3.53 million followers.
But that didn't stop the Twitterverse in the South American country and beyond from exploding with criticism of what many considered a racist tweet.
"Cristina Fernandez's lack of tack and respect is incredible," wrote @FaundezLafarga. "She goes to China looking for (economic) agreements and she makes fun of their accents."
@GuyChazan wrote: "Faux pas in China. Really, this sort of joke went out of fashion in the 70s."
Rather a moronic thing to do during your visit to an Asian nation that you are seeking investments from.
Link - ( New Window )
Did it go out of fashion? Or did it lose its racist bite? It's a silly joke that people tell at the expense of Asian immigrants...sort of like the whole dogs and cats for dinner joke that gets thrown around every once in a while. In the end, they're dumb and silly but nothing to get all worked up about.
I don't know, in 1976 Peter Sellers did it in Murder By Death and it was still pretty funny.
Hopefully you don't suffer from the half-blind yellow fever that a lot of people seem to suffer from. Sheesh...have you seen some of the ugly Asian chicks that non-Asian people date?
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I got Yellow fever brah
Hopefully you don't suffer from the half-blind yellow fever that a lot of people seem to suffer from. Sheesh...have you seen some of the ugly Asian chicks that non-Asian people date?
How can they tell? Don't we all look alike?
Dude...you're going to get a lecture from HH for being so insensitive, you racist jerk.
What Paul said was much worse, and from a man who should know better.
Hahaha...This made me laugh.
It definitely is...I have to give you that.
Link - ( New Window )
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
That was from Uncle Junior.
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seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
There's lots of vaccines...do you make them all mandatory? Yearly flu shots? Any and every? Who decides?
It's not easy at least for me to say the gov't can force a foreign substance into your body. Even though I think that people who don't choose it on their own are irresponsible dumbasses. So maybe non-vaccinators from all human/public contact is unenforceable...although it works for schools. But most people, I think, will do what the laws say so even an unenforceable law would likely catch most people and the herd should take care of those who flout it.
That was from Uncle Junior.
Haha...well, this Asian has a Cadirac.
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In comment 12124750 Headhunter said:
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seems to me to be the choice to save your children from a lifetime of potential physical and mental misery or death versus the other side of the line having to swallow and accept that this government program is one of the reasons we formed a government in the first place
I tend to agree with this. As I said, I support mandatory vaccination. It's just good policy.
There's lots of vaccines...do you make them all mandatory? Yearly flu shots? Any and every? Who decides?
It's not easy at least for me to say the gov't can force a foreign substance into your body. Even though I think that people who don't choose it on their own are irresponsible dumbasses. So maybe non-vaccinators from all human/public contact is unenforceable...although it works for schools. But most people, I think, will do what the laws say so even an unenforceable law would likely catch most people and the herd should take care of those who flout it.
Those are very serious and legitimate concerns, concerns I share. As I said earlier, the process by which vaccines are adopted into any sort of mandatory program must be under public scrutiny, and under constant evaluation. I will never be fully comfortable with the idea of a government telling it's people what medical procedures they must follow through with as part of some social contract, but when it comes to vaccines I think it makes sense for me to budge on this issue. With the cavaet that great care must be taken to controll the process
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when Jerry Lewis slanted his eyes and kept on repeating me so solly. Come up with something newer than a bit from the '60's
I don't know, in 1976 Peter Sellers did it in Murder By Death and it was still pretty funny.
Sidney Wang: It is late, and my eyes are getting tired.
Sam Diamond: I thought they always looked like that.
Jessica Marbles: Knock it off, Sam!
Sam Diamond: I apologize. This case is getting to me. I'm sorry, Slanty.
Sidney Wang: Um... thank you.
In 1998, Andrew Wakefield and 12 of his colleagues[1] published a case series in the Lancet, which suggested that the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine may predispose to behavioral regression and pervasive developmental disorder in children. Despite the small sample size (n=12), the uncontrolled design, and the speculative nature of the conclusions, the paper received wide publicity, and MMR vaccination rates began to drop because parents were concerned about the risk of autism after vaccination.[2]
Almost immediately afterward, epidemiological studies were conducted and published, refuting the posited link between MMR vaccination and autism.[3,4] The logic that the MMR vaccine may trigger autism was also questioned because a temporal link between the two is almost predestined: both events, by design (MMR vaccine) or definition (autism), occur in early childhood.
The next episode in the saga was a short retraction of the interpretation of the original data by 10 of the 12 co-authors of the paper. According to the retraction, “no causal link was established between MMR vaccine and autism as the data were insufficient”.[5] This was accompanied by an admission by the Lancet that Wakefield et al.[1] had failed to disclose financial interests (e.g., Wakefield had been funded by lawyers who had been engaged by parents in lawsuits against vaccine-producing companies). However, the Lancet exonerated Wakefield and his colleagues from charges of ethical violations and scientific misconduct.[6]
The Lancet completely retracted the Wakefield et al.[1] paper in February 2010, admitting that several elements in the paper were incorrect, contrary to the findings of the earlier investigation.[7] Wakefield et al.[1] were held guilty of ethical violations (they had conducted invasive investigations on the children without obtaining the necessary ethical clearances) and scientific misrepresentation (they reported that their sampling was consecutive when, in fact, it was selective). This retraction was published as a small, anonymous paragraph in the journal, on behalf of the editors.[8]
The final episode in the saga is the revelation that Wakefield et al.[1] were guilty of deliberate fraud (they picked and chose data that suited their case; they falsified facts).[9] The British Medical Journal has published a series of articles on the exposure of the fraud, which appears to have taken place for financial gain.[10–13] It is a matter of concern that the exposé was a result of journalistic investigation, rather than academic vigilance followed by the institution of corrective measures...[14]
Sorry for the length, put it makes some essential points.
And by the way, there is a wonderful opportunity for follow-up journalism/books here: The number of so-called health professionals who continue to use the Wakefield study as the case for non-Vaxx, and the number of them that flat-out lie in their work either about the status of the study or the purported existence alleged follow-up studies confirming the results.
There are hoaxes, hucksterism, fraud and flat out lying for the purpose of making a living going on here. Some so-called health professionals need to be charged with fraud. A well-publicized trial over the facts would kill this thing, right quick.
Link - ( New Window )
According to the Cook County Department of Public Heath, five infants at the Palatine day care may have measles. Diagnoses for two children were confirmed and test results for three remaining cases are pending, though those cases were diagnosed based on clinical and epidemiological criteria, officials said.
Health officials said the five children are all under the age of one.
continued - ( New Window )
You can look at the efficacy rates of the vaccines themselves on something other than an annual basis. You can look at the ability of the disease itself to mutate, which lessens the reliability of any vaccine. You can look at a cost-effectiveness ratio. You can look at some measure of quality-adjusted life years (QALY's, DALY's, DALE's).
You can also look at the target populations. Vaccines mandated for children that are effective (which doesn't include the flu) extends life by a lot and is highly effective. The same vaccines for older cohorts may not be mandatory.
BCG for TB. Not a true vaccine, granted, but it has been given to hundreds of millions of kids, mostly via mandate, with no real benefit.
Thats a problem with regulations: someone has to set them. And they are never perfect. Since it involves our little Johnnie's it will always be heated.
Guardisil is a proven vaccine against HPV that causes cervix cancer, the mostly deadly gynecologic cancer in the world. It is not well received because it has to be given to girls (or boys) before they become sexually active. In many cultures, parents can't accept that concept for their little Suzie.
Why Many Adults Should Get Their Measles Shot — Again - ( New Window )