I see some threads floating around about this guy and that guy or this position or that position but surprisingly many don't think we need a WR almost just based on just how good OBJ turned out to be.
Granted I like Peat and to a lesser extent Collins in theory as blindside protectors. However depending on how the draft falls and the Giants final evaluations of players, WR has a pretty good chance of being BPA when it's our turn at the podium.
Now Reese has also stated they choose when value meets need wherever possible and they don't draft for the short term only ( meaning with only next year in mind).
So let's take a brief look at the WR position:
-OBJ. Beast.
-Cruz. Major injury and Reese sounded very cautious discussing him in the post-season PC. May come back but will he be the same.
-Randle. The enigma. Maddeningly inconsistent. New offense should help him but once again emerged late in season many times disappearing early on. Clearly has talent, but is he dedicated enough to being the best he can be. Even more important this is a contract year. We've seen many inconsistent but talented types in all sports play like gangbusters for a new deal then become inconsistent again once they receive it.
-Parker. A third wide out who occasionally can have a solid play or two but not a guy you want to be your second WR.
-Harris/Washington. Liked what I saw in pre-season but entirely unproven.
So really in essensce the Giants have OBJ and a bunch of question marks. And if Randle should show well in his contract year perhaps due to all the immaturity and inconsistency, perhaps the Giants won't sign him if he gets big FA dollars elsewhere as he may not be worth the risk.
Now Colin who has some pretty good ties with the NFL and gets some good scuttlebutt regarding the Giants, says the Giants feel if Parker played the entire season he would be a stone-cold lock for top 5 in the entire draft.
When I re-watched some of his tape it looks like he made great strides in his game this season.
Parker's numbers throughout his career have been excellent but this last year in only 6 games he had staggering numbers: 43 catches, 855 yards 19.9 YPC...extrapolate that over 13 games and you have 93 catches, 1852 yards and 11 tds (and that's with 3 different QBs not named Bridgewater throwing the ball to him).
I still think his route running at times is sloppy (which in a way is encouraging as it shows even more room for improvement) but he pretty much has the whole package: size,speed,strength,good hands,and large catching radius.
Truthfully the only other guy I really like at 9 is Peat and he comes with some question marks himself. He has flashed dominant LT ability and has shutdown some premeire college edge rushers but has also looked foolish in pass pro at times as well. Is it simply a maturity issue? The physical ability as some scouts have said is close to Ogden. Man would it be great to have a shutdown LT in Eli's remaining prime years.
I am torn, but I'll say this: I trust Reese's draft record especially when it comes to round 1. And when it comes to receivers in the top 2 rounds he generally doesn't miss: Nicks, OBJ,Steve Smith (Senorice was EA's pick).
The Giants OL was an above average pass-blocking unit in 2014. Top 10 pass-blocking OL when you take away the negative grades of Charles Brown and James Brewer.
The guy at the Combine that will likely have some helium is TJ Clemmings. Raw.. but significant upside at a position of need.
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In comment 12117986 Gman11 said:
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is that they are decent there. They've got the OROY, Pro-Bowler. Hopefully, Cruz can come back. Randall is decent #3.
The offensive line, linebacker, safety and DE are in desperate need of an upgrade. I don't care what anybody says, when you have that many places with a big need you don't pick a BPA that doesn't fill one of those needs.
Randle won't be a Giant in 2016.
Why we drafted Hankins when we still had Joseph/Jenkins...because Joseph was going to leave 1 year later. Hankins was drafted 1 year ahead of time to be his replacement.
You don't draft a 1st round player for his 1st year, you draft a player for the next 5-10 years.
I don't think that philospohy is so true any more. I would say that the players drafted in the top three rounds should be counted on to contribute right away. NFL careers are short and normally the second contract is the one that they are trying to get their payday on and so you really only have these players for a good 4 years until they hit the market or are costing your team a ton against the cap. We need players to come in and contribute right away and I suspect with TC on his last year of his contract that he would want that to apply, as well.
Parker will come in and contribute right away. McAdoo has a ton of 4-wide sets in his playbook. Beckham likely will miss time due to injury, our offense will be depleted if we do not add another weapon and Beckham goes down.
The guy at the Combine that will likely have some helium is TJ Clemmings. Raw.. but significant upside at a position of need.
TJ Clemmings is a 2nd round pick at best. He can't protect against the outside speed rush. That huge hole in his game takes him out of 1st round.
But when I scouted Parker in depth and started my grading process...he just seemed to lack the quick twitch, the suddenness. Does he have the acceleration? Can he run himself open? He has good size and superb ball skills, so the separation issues may not be that big of a deal. But then I watch more...and I see he really isn't that physical. He's from from being a softee, but we aren't talking about a guy that will make money for being tough and physical.
All in all, Parker still stands in the top 45 on my board as of right now. Somewhere near the top of the 2nd round. So no...I do not advocate taking in the top 9 overall. I have four WRs ahead of him at this point.
I had Watkins, Matthews, and Cooks slightly ahead of Beckham on my WR board last year. Watkins and Matthews were at 85 (out of 100), Cooks at 83, Beckham at 81. Any player above 80 I have labeled as a pro bowl caliber player, and worthy of a 1st round selection.
As of right now, I have Parker at 77, a tier where I say the player is a solid starter.
The guy at the Combine that will likely have some helium is TJ Clemmings. Raw.. but significant upside at a position of need.
RAIN, I agree that Parker seems raw. Catches a zillion fade routes relying on his height, doesn't seem to run great routes.
Milton, I think we need to sign a few at least moderately big ticket players, just not the volume of players we did last year. I agree that Suh is a long shot, but there are other DL and OL who would also fit the bill. Reese said we're not gonna be as active in FA as last year...I'm hoping he meant volume. He's not blind, so he knows we need help on both lines; and he loves to go into drafts without major positions of need, freeing him up somewhat in his selections.
When you say rank them scoring wise...are you saying right now as in post rookie season?
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20-20, but if you ranked them by your scoring system now?
When you say rank them scoring wise...are you saying right now as in post rookie season?
Yes..All in hindsight of course
Any player I have 90+ is seen as an All Pro type player. They're rare...at most I'll have two or three of those guys in a given class. So far this year, I don't have anyone approaching that tier. Highest is an 87.
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Truthfully I like Shelton too but don't think he is near Aaron Donald from a pass rushing standpoint (not many are). Truthfully I think he will end up being a little below Ngata from the Ravens. Very good per se but even Ngota doesn't really roll up the sacks but he does pressure the Qb and demand doubles at times. Also he doesnt have the protypical height we like if we were to pick him at 9. I just don't see him being BPA for the Giants pick and I think we are still high on Bromley. I see Reese filling this in via FA and later in draft.
Coach, imo a player a little below Ngata would be a great fit for us. I want someone who can take on the double teams of Frederick and Martin and leave our MLB clean. Pair Shelton with Hankins and those runs through the middle of the line go way down (at least if Beason comes back or we find another MLB who can be effective there). And I'm not sure we need him to pass rush like Donald. All he and Hankins would need to do is collapse the pocket routinely and let our DEs (and the DTs) get those team sacks that come from everyone meeting at the QB.
There is no question that a player like that wouldn't benefit us. A DT rotation of Hankins, Shelton and Bromley would likely be quite a load and free up JPP (must be resigned) ,Moore, and Ayers to wreak havoc in the backfrield.
But who impacts this team the most short term and long term? Alot can change between now and the draft but at the moment I think it's Parker or Peat if the grade on Peat is high.
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Now Colin who has some pretty good ties with the NFL and gets some good scuttlebutt regarding the Giants, says the Giants feel if Parker played the entire season he would be a stone-cold lock for top 5 in the entire draft.
Colin didn't say that the Giants feel Parker would've been a top 5 pick sans injury, he said that his sources felt that way. He doesn't say whether those sources are from within the Giants organization. Also, what makes you say that Colin has "pretty good ties" within the NFL. Nothing against Colin, but we don't know anything about his sources and it's not like he has a track record of correctly predicting who the Giants will select.
Bottomline is that the Giants are not going to select a #2 WR with the 9th pick. It just ain't gonna happen. Sure, if a WR was the clearcut BPA, they would select him, but a WR isn't going to be the clearcut BPA. There may be one in the mix of prospects they consider, but ultimately they are going to pick the BPA who plays OL or DL.
If I'm wrong, I will eat a tuna salad sandwich on rye!
Milt I believe you are going with old school thinking here. WR is more important than ever and in the GA offense they like to throw out 3 WR sets more often than not. If Giants have Parker as a top 5 value he could very well be clearcut BPA.
-- If the draft supports picking a WR or DB or Edge rusher at 9 that's what they will pick - I see them picking a playmaker at 9 -- be it Offense or Defense -- less likely to to pick an Offensive Lineman or Defensive Tackle -- unless one falls to them somehow that makes them salivate - I haven't heard of that person yet -- but that's how I see it -- Pick # 9 has to have a real impact on this team for the next 5 years
Like White too and used to prefer him over Devante. But after what Colin mentioned I went back and reviewed Parker a little more closely. He made some improvement and cleaned up some of his route running last year and it showed with some absolutely dominant performances. Still think his route running needs work but he has a higher upside to White and is the superior size/speed athlete.
Who is running routes isn't going to make a lot of difference if Eli is running for his life. Strengthen the OL and the whole offense will be affected. Look at the Patriots. They have a good OL and average RBs and WRs. The Cowboys OL made Murray go from a good back to the leading runner in the league and remember how Romo picked the Giants apart in the final minute because his OL gave him forever to throw the ball?
The other traits that he has, you can't teach.
These are prospects, not finished products.
Mike Evans was also knocked for his route-running. And we all see how he's turned out in the NFL.
You have free agency, you have 6 or more other draft picks, you can have runningbacks, full backs and tight ends catch balls.
Not that it would be totally crazy to pick the player, but then, how sure are you of this one as opposed to others?
I would tend to doubt the Parker pick but I remember when fans didn't want LT because the Giants were allegedly loaded at linebacker.
Seattle's WR corps are bottom barrel and they are playing right now.
W needs at every positon group except QB and both OBJ and Randle on the team next year WR is a luxury unless that player is ranked a lot higher than the other 10 needs out there.
What's interesting is that people insist on filling all OL postions IN FA 1st. Why can't you add a WR. Suppose Cruz come backs and looks good?
I'm not saying to pass to pass on any player but the idea that WRs can only be found high is moronic. Antonio Brown and Julian Eddleman were top WRs. We're were they grabbed. with holes everywhere a WR is a luxury again.
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do to team with Bryant or the Eagles do to team with Macklin or the Redskins to team with Garçon. We counter with OBJ and the question marks. Not too thrilled with that
Who is running routes isn't going to make a lot of difference if Eli is running for his life. Strengthen the OL and the whole offense will be affected. Look at the Patriots. They have a good OL and average RBs and WRs. The Cowboys OL made Murray go from a good back to the leading runner in the league and remember how Romo picked the Giants apart in the final minute because his OL gave him forever to throw the ball?
The OL certainly won't be ignored and though Mara was more guarded and less out-spoken this off-season, he still made it a point to call out the OL. It will be addressed with very likely at least 1 quality FA OL like an Orlando Franklin and I'm betting a high draft pick as well. I am torn on Peat and Parker (as my top two choices at the moment) but would trust the Giants here.
Seattle's WR corps are bottom barrel and they are playing right now.
W needs at every positon group except QB and both OBJ and Randle on the team next year WR is a luxury unless that player is ranked a lot higher than the other 10 needs out there.
What's interesting is that people insist on filling all OL postions IN FA 1st. Why can't you add a WR. Suppose Cruz come backs and looks good?
I'm not saying to pass to pass on any player but the idea that WRs can only be found high is moronic. Antonio Brown and Julian Eddleman were top WRs. We're were they grabbed. with holes everywhere a WR is a luxury again.
-FA will shore up some weaknesses on D as will a player friendly DC and sound new system.
-At the moment, no one defender in the entire draft seems like a prototypical fit for our Defensive system worth the 9th pick.
-Other players will likely grade out much higher (quite possibly Peat,Collins and Parker)
if a WR grades out significantly higher than an OL.. you take the WR.. period.. if the grade is CLOSE then there is a discussion to be had..
However our BEST OL in years had
5th rounder, UDFA, UDFA, 2nd round, 3rd round..
as the starters..
What I'd like to see is the Giants find one starting OL in FA, and also get some S help and DL depth in FA. This allows us to go for 2 explosive offensive playmakers early in the draft.
Round 1: Parker or White
Round 2: RB Coleman or RB Abdullah
Let's surround the most explosive player in the NFL with 2 speed/size matchup advantages at WR and RB.
What I'd like to see is the Giants find one starting OL in FA, and also get some S help and DL depth in FA. This allows us to go for 2 explosive offensive playmakers early in the draft.
Round 1: Parker or White
Round 2: RB Coleman or RB Abdullah
Let's surround the most explosive player in the NFL with 2 speed/size matchup advantages at WR and RB.
Don't know if I put White above Cooper and while Parker's ceiling may be the highest of the 3 (size,speed,catching radius, ability to improve before maxing-out) Cooper is very polished already and has a higher floor with a pretty high ceiling himself. Anytime a player can star as a college freshman transitioning from the high school game shows alot. Cooper had a 1000 yds and a gaudy 16.6ypc his first year at the college level.
With that said. I rank them: 1. Cooper 2. Parker 3.White
Still like White alot but think he is a bit more maxed out than Parker and has a moderately lower ceiling. He has slightly better foot work/route running but I think Parker has shown improvement in this area this year (and gives the impression he can continue to improve) & the numbers don't lie at how dominant he was this year without a top QB throwing him the football.
OT I can see but edge rusher? What edge rusher has enough Giant prototypical characteristics worthy of a top 10 selection?
Give us Peat, and move along, I say.
His strengths were run after the catch and winning 50/50 balls. Weaknesses are that he's kind of a longstrider so he may not have the same change of direction as OBJ. Also not a perfectly polished route runner.
Take that all with a grain of salt as I'm not a pro scout.
Give us Peat, and move along, I say.
I think we agree on the upside of Peat. The spectre of a lock down LT for the next decade would be something this team hasn't had in 30 years.
And with the red-chip depth at receiver there will be a pretty good WR/TE very likely sitting there at 40.
But do the Giants see another dominant WR in Parker, Cooper or White? Who knows but we know Reese has a disposition for a playmaker and may think we can get by with Beatty at LT and a guy like Franklin in FA. I guess we shall see.
His strengths were run after the catch and winning 50/50 balls. Weaknesses are that he's kind of a longstrider so he may not have the same change of direction as OBJ. Also not a perfectly polished route runner.
Take that all with a grain of salt as I'm not a pro scout.
I see the 'it' factor too and a bit of that 'dawg' mentality that Reese referred to about OBJ
If I'm drafting a WR at the top of round 1 he has to be a rare athlete by NFL WR standards.
The other 2 have the type of AA that results in elite NFL WRs. It's this upside that they have (and Cooper doesn't) that gets them drafted before Cooper.
When I saw him run routes, I didn't see a guy exploding out of his cuts on his routes. That's my concern for the guy as a top draft pick. I think NFL CBs can stick him.
With Beckham it was clear as day that the guy can plant and explode to separate. Cooper doesn't do it for me.
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Parker seems to be in a diffrent tier than the top.
The guy at the Combine that will likely have some helium is TJ Clemmings. Raw.. but significant upside at a position of need.
TJ Clemmings is a 2nd round pick at best. He can't protect against the outside speed rush. That huge hole in his game takes him out of 1st round.
Disagree. He's raw but his got great upside. I've seen people compare him to Tyrone Smith.
I don't love any of the top 3 WRs.
IMO the WR pool in the 2nd round is more appealing than the 1st round for the Giants this year.
Parker is impressive but he seems to lack something. He reminds me a little bit of Reuben Randle except he has A/A+ ball skills whereas Randle has B ball skills. That makes a big difference but he's not as physical as you'd want him to be.
I don't love any of the top 3 WRs.
Evans though a little taller certainly didn't look to be a quick twitch guy either. You don't have to be Odell to succeed as a NFL WR. There are plenty of other tools with all 3 and I think all 3 will be good to great Wrs unless they don't want it enough. Obviously at 9 we are banking on a legit probowl talent but I trust Reese if he picks one of these guys. Both his first round record and record with high round receivers has been darn good.
The more I watch some of this year's kids the more I think this WR crop is getting a little short changed due to last year's likely historic quality and depth .
This year's crop may not be last year but gun to temple, it's going to be better than almost any recent year aside from it.