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I'm hoping that Reese solves the team's main problems in FA,

yatqb : 2/6/2015 1:06 pm
allowing him to draft as he sees fit as opposed to merely plugging holes. I'd love us to land an OG, DT, LB and S in FA.

Doing mock after mock, it becomes apparent that we'd have to reach at various times were we seeking to fill most of our holes in the draft (e.g., if we take an OL in Rd. 1 we'd likely have to reach for a DT, LB or S in Rd. 2, and vice versa) and STILL not accomplish all we need for next season.

So let's hope that Reese opens the checkbook and lands several starters during this FA period. We need starters and not merely backups if we are to contend next year.

I recognize I'm stating the obvious here, but it's remarkable to see time after time when doing mocks how often, even with the 9th pick, you'd either have to take a player at a position of lesser need when your selection comes up, or conversely ignore your Board/Tiers in order to address specific positions in the draft.
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RE: I'm with you Yat  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/6/2015 1:36 pm : link
The general consensus seems to be to bring back Thurmond but I'm notsure they will sink another 3.5 million into a guy that can't stay healthy. He has missed 14 games in the last
two seasons combined.



I agree that I'd like to see a play for Paea at dt. I think Dan Williams isanother option.
The way I see it  
gmen9892 : 2/6/2015 1:36 pm : link
The biggest holes the Giants have right now are OL, DL, S, and LB.

If you can fill at least 2 of those through FA, that is a great start. You would like to think they would be able to fill at least 2 more holes via the draft. Then you hope for luck and some internal growth to fill the last weakness.
RE: The way I see it  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/6/2015 1:40 pm : link
In comment 12126638 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
The biggest holes the Giants have right now are OL, DL, S, and LB.

If you can fill at least 2 of those through FA, that is a great start. You would like to think they would be able to fill at least 2 more holes via the draft. Then you hope for luck and some internal growth to fill the last weakness.


Agreed...and I think LB will get the shaft as usual. I expect S and OL in free agency.
I'm thinking we land a starting DT, OT and S in FA, and perhaps  
yatqb : 2/6/2015 1:45 pm : link
also take a gamble on outbidding Atlanta for Sean Witherspoon on a "show me" contract. I think he'd come fairly cheaply, but we would have to beat Atlanta's offer, and they say they want him back.
yat  
Coach Mason : 2/6/2015 1:51 pm : link
Once again reading the tea leaves, between Mara's comments, our propensity to try to plug OL in FA over the years , and finally the win now mentality in TC's contract year, I think it's pretty close to a lock we persue a quality OL in FA.

I'd say Safety is a safe bet as that is a big hole that needs a vet (especially if Rolle isn't resigned).

They always seem to try to find a bargain bin LB so that is a strong possibility too.

The other positions are more a toss up that could go either way (draft and/or FA).
RE: I'm thinking we land a starting DT, OT and S in FA, and perhaps  
Coach Mason : 2/6/2015 1:54 pm : link
In comment 12126662 yatqb said:
Quote:
also take a gamble on outbidding Atlanta for Sean Witherspoon on a "show me" contract. I think he'd come fairly cheaply, but we would have to beat Atlanta's offer, and they say they want him back.


A bargain DT may be a possibility too.
I'd like to get two + starters  
chris r : 2/6/2015 1:56 pm : link
One RT and one safety.
The gapping holes are LG and both safety positions  
Rjanyg : 2/6/2015 1:59 pm : link
assuming we re-sign JPP. Next obvious hole is a play maker at LB. Not sure what is going to happen with Beason. McClain is under contract for next season and Kennard looks to be a starter probably at SLB. Bruce Carter or Weatherspoon would be a decent signing for the right money.
RE: Gman11  
BMac : 2/6/2015 2:00 pm : link
In comment 12126603 old man said:
Quote:
JR is on the same short rope as TC; his 'reach days are over, or he is done.
This draft has to be productive.


No evidence for this at all. If anything, the opposite is indicated.
Two  
AcidTest : 2/6/2015 2:15 pm : link
decent players at most in FA, especially if we franchise JPP. The rest are more of Reese's annual reclamation projects.
I think OG and OT  
Matt M. : 2/6/2015 2:28 pm : link
could be interchangeable. If they get a top RT, Pugh could move to LG. If they get a top OG, Pugh may stay at RT. If they get both, Pugh could be fighting for a starting job, but I don't foresee this happening.
our problems are checkbook problems  
mdc1 : 2/6/2015 2:29 pm : link
but selecting and coaching and developing the right guys.
RE: our problems are checkbook problems  
mdc1 : 2/6/2015 2:29 pm : link
sorry, are not checkbook problems
This is what Reese usually tries to do with varying success  
BeerFridge : 2/6/2015 2:44 pm : link
Last year, big holes on OL. Signed Schwarz and Walton so he wasn't forced to go OL in Rnd 1 - allowed him to pick Beckham. This year, he'll do something on the DE and OL spots again so he won't have to reach for a JPP replacement or someone better than Jerry.
DT and Safety should be priorities in free agency.  
Klaatu : 2/6/2015 4:11 pm : link
The need is there, and there are a number of UFAs at both positions that should be on the Giants' radar.

I'd rather not sign any UFA O-Linemen this year. I'd much rather use the draft to beef up the O-Line (pun intended), with at least one premium pick and one mid-to-late round pick.
Like he did last year ?  
TMS : 2/6/2015 8:47 pm : link
More injury prone vets looking for golden parachutes will not do it.
I think it is a MUST for us to get 3 positions filled in free agency  
SGMen : 2/6/2015 9:13 pm : link
1. OG or RT - a veteran upgrade to Jerry is needed.
2. Safety - Demps stinks, Brown is not the answer and Rolle is old.
3. LB - is Williams healthy enough to be re-signed. Good enough?

One could argue we need a veteran backup tackle as well.

Draft BPA regardless of position.
RE: I think it is a MUST for us to get 3 positions filled in free agency  
Coach Mason : 2/6/2015 9:30 pm : link
In comment 12127200 SGMen said:
Quote:
1. OG or RT - a veteran upgrade to Jerry is needed.
2. Safety - Demps stinks, Brown is not the answer and Rolle is old.
3. LB - is Williams healthy enough to be re-signed. Good enough?

One could argue we need a veteran backup tackle as well.

Draft BPA regardless of position.


Agree with the first two but I wonder if they will try to sign a high level LB, with the lack of emphasis we place on the position.

They have Kennard who shows a ton of promise and McClain who is unspectacular but adequate , I would love a Boley type. They need someone who can cover in the LB group badly.
Weatherspoon might be affordable  
Rjanyg : 2/6/2015 9:43 pm : link
Because of his past injuries. It could be chancy paying him even a moderate contract and then lose him to another injury. Same could be said for Bruce Carter but oth are very good WLB and would be a major upgrade over Williams IMO.
Remember what Mara said about this year's draft  
Milton : 2/7/2015 12:57 am : link
It's good at the OL position and if they don't draft one in the first round, there will still be talent available in round two. So it sounds to me like the Giants plan to address the OL via the draft. Not saying they won't add a free agent OL or two, but not a big ticket guy.
RE: I'm with you Yat  
mrvax : 2/7/2015 8:52 am : link
In comment 12126605 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
Free agency is about plugging holes and the draft is about selecting the BPA available, going with a need when values are similar.

Lots of moves to be made prior to FA:
1. Cut Kiwi, Walton, Hosley
2. Beason and Weatherford take paycuts
3. Extend and Restructure Eli and Prince
4. Hopefully re-sign JPP
5. I would like to have the following players back as well:
Thurmond, Bowman, Donnell, Hynoski, Herzlich and one of Rolle or Brown@ safety.


If you want to cut Walton, you had better have someone on the team with some NFL experience at center. We've had starters injured at that position before. I don't know of anyone else on the Giants now that can play center.

Do you?

RE: RE: I'm with you Yat  
dguy901 : 2/7/2015 9:34 am : link
In comment 12127339 mrvax said:
Quote:
In comment 12126605 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


Free agency is about plugging holes and the draft is about selecting the BPA available, going with a need when values are similar.

Lots of moves to be made prior to FA:
Last year in camp, Eric Herman was getting time in at Center.
1. Cut Kiwi, Walton, Hosley
2. Beason and Weatherford take paycuts
3. Extend and Restructure Eli and Prince
4. Hopefully re-sign JPP
5. I would like to have the following players back as well:
Thurmond, Bowman, Donnell, Hynoski, Herzlich and one of Rolle or Brown@ safety.




If you want to cut Walton, you had better have someone on the team with some NFL experience at center. We've had starters injured at that position before. I don't know of anyone else on the Giants now that can play center.

Do you?

Herman was taking reps at center last year.
Define solve  
JonC : 2/7/2015 9:39 am : link
The problem is the roster has a lot of holes, and despite ~70 players under contract, they need a lot of talent upgrades. We probably need ~20 roster spots to be upgraded ... given this, I wonder what the top ~30 contracts total up to relative to the salary cap?

Even if they do all the smart things and get $30M under the cap, $30M is gone pretty quickly in UFA unless you're completing a significant number of value signings, e.g. relatively average talent.

This adds up to needing another offseason to infuse talent, it would seem.

Fwiw  
djm : 2/7/2015 11:01 am : link
A lot of smarter football talkies are all over the giants and saying that this team is poised to make a run next year. Gill Brandt said so last night and he's not the first one to point out that this org has things headed in the right direction.

They still have holes to fill and need another good off season but the core of this team is very young. There's little to no talent on this team that is passed its prime.

Just food for thought and something to hold on to over the next few months. If we can just get out of camp and September relatively healthy. Seems like every year since 12 this team can't make it out of September in one piece.
RE: I'd like to get two + starters  
djm : 2/7/2015 11:03 am : link
In comment 12126671 chris r said:
Quote:
One RT and one safety.


Me too. I'd be shocked if these two positions are not addressed via FA.
Agree with JonC here....  
damdevs : 2/7/2015 11:10 am : link
part of the problem that I see is if we don't hit and a bunch of FA signing to upgrade this team it will be difficult to be a playoff team. And JonC is right....30 Mil isn't a lot to help us overcome all of these holes we've got.

If people here think that we're going to find 5 to 6 starters in this draft you're dreaming. We'll be lucky if we get 2, especially with Coughlin's eagerness to play the young kids.
RE: Fwiw  
damdevs : 2/7/2015 11:20 am : link
In comment 12127435 djm said:
Quote:
A lot of smarter football talkies are all over the giants and saying that this team is poised to make a run next year. Gill Brandt said so last night and he's not the first one to point out that this org has things headed in the right direction.

They still have holes to fill and need another good off season but the core of this team is very young. There's little to no talent on this team that is passed its prime.

Just food for thought and something to hold on to over the next few months. If we can just get out of camp and September relatively healthy. Seems like every year since 12 this team can't make it out of September in one piece.

A couple of things....Eli and the Offense needs to continue to grow. We need to have a solid OL in place in order for that to happen.

Two....Spags has to come in and light a fire under these guys. Which I think he can do. If he brings back an attacking style Def and a swagger/confidence to go with it then we might be in business.

Three....we've got to stay healthy. We've got some really nice talent on this roster....just need to keep them healthy. The teams that are the healthiest throughout the year and at the end of the year are usually the ones competing for a title.
RE: Define solve  
Coach Mason : 2/7/2015 11:24 am : link
In comment 12127378 JonC said:
Quote:
The problem is the roster has a lot of holes, and despite ~70 players under contract, they need a lot of talent upgrades. We probably need ~20 roster spots to be upgraded ... given this, I wonder what the top ~30 contracts total up to relative to the salary cap?

Even if they do all the smart things and get $30M under the cap, $30M is gone pretty quickly in UFA unless you're completing a significant number of value signings, e.g. relatively average talent.

This adds up to needing another offseason to infuse talent, it would seem.


I have a feeling the Giants are going to be somewhat aggressive this year again. With the TCs expiring contract and Maras hinting at win now or else, I see them definitely being active in FA.

Perhaps not the sheer quantity from last year but a few decent players with mid sized contracts.

I could see them going with the mindset that at least Beatty and maybe Cruz could be cap cuts next year (roughly 7.5 to 15 mill savings if my cap math is correct). Which would allow them more flexibility.

I think a quality OL likely with OG/RT eligibility is a given and a decent safety as well.

The rest murkier, but they will bring in at least quality rotation level players at DT and LB (like Cullen Jenkins was). WR is a wild card I could see them spend big here or at minimum find a new upgrade to Parker and go very high in the draft for one. TE might be a mid level guy with upside.

Signing JPP to a long term with a cap friendly year 1 and extending Eli is going to be key for cap flexibility.

Jon,I don't think we're gonna sign 20 FAs this year.  
yatqb : 2/7/2015 12:01 pm : link
I think we're gonna sign 2-3 significant FAs, guys who are impact starters, and then sign some fill in players who won't impact the cap dramatically. Let's say they sign guys of the caliber of Paea, Franklin and McCourty. I imagine that, with long term contracts and bonus arrangements, the cap hits could be managed effectively.

To me, re-signing JPP is critical to some flexibility in that regard, however. If we don't re-sign JPP, I can't see how we're gonna improve enough to be playoff bound next year. If we can, we can keep a really good player AND manage his cap hit accordingly.
We need to starting hitting the target  
fkap : 2/7/2015 1:09 pm : link
last year, we addressed the OL with 3 majors: Schwartz, who is still a question mark, Walton, who washed out, and Richburg, who is promising. So, one out of three can be counted on. and there was a bunch of low level signings like Jennings/Brown that are basically just spinning our wheels. that's not good. It's not bad news all around, as other acquisitions did make the grade, but there's too much of the Baas type signings that cost money, but don't produce. Wilson gets a pass because of his neck, but IMO, he was never going to be the #1, even though he was a #1 draft pick. Too much missing.

we need middle of the road signings like Walton to pan out, and we need top signings, like Schwartz to pan out.

Getting one year successes, like the black unicorn, is nice for a year, but ultimately not helpful to the team. Thurmond injured out, which you can't blame Reese on, but it was another case of paying decent money for one year and if you get your money's worth, you need to pony up even more to keep him. Stop the one year show me deals. evaluate the talent and find ones that will be helpful for several years and sign them accordingly.
yat  
JonC : 2/7/2015 3:08 pm : link
I hear you, my point was to say I suspect we're two offseasons worth of infusions away from getting to contender level in terms of talent. There could be ~20 players among the currently signed that will ultimately not be here in 2016, in other words.

One poster keeps indicating NYG has an incredible amount of cap space in 2016, and I don't know how accurate it is. But, if it is accurate, then then can look to structure deals accordingly. Imo.

fkap, agreed it's too much missing.

Jon, you're probably right,  
yatqb : 2/7/2015 3:40 pm : link
but if we land a top starting OL, this offense could be really dynamic.

Then we can concentrate on firming up the defense, and I'm not sure how many top guys we need for the D to be at least competent. I think that one thing Spags brings is an ability to game plan to hide some defensive weaknesses.

Likely overoptimistic, but I've got that fire in my belly! Probably need some Tums.
yat  
JonC : 2/7/2015 4:09 pm : link
I do think they'll try to sign a RT, which would relieve some of the OL need at #9 in the draft. Beyond that, the offense could use use a speed weapon at RB, and a TE who's more capable downfield.

The defense needs a lot of parts, especially up front. I wrote as the 2012 season closed that their talent pipeline on the DL wasn't keeping up as the players were declining at young ages. Now, we're seeing the issues at both DE spots and DT depth.
I keep hearing we have cap issues and Oline issues  
Rjanyg : 2/7/2015 4:27 pm : link
But people want to get a RT in FA when a guard would be more affordable. Pugh is a solid RT. moving him would add a new issue of him not having played guard in the NFL. Get a guard in free agency, Franklin would make the most sense since he has played guard and NYG likes versatile Olinemen.
Reese's recent comments  
JonC : 2/7/2015 4:30 pm : link
tell me they (or he) wants to upgrade RT, and I'll for it. Pugh is upgradeable, I'm not bypassing it if the chance arises. Sign Franklin and let the players sort it out in camp.
Jon, we'd be in better shape if we'd have re-signed Joseph,  
yatqb : 2/7/2015 4:32 pm : link
but there is a lot of work to do to solidify the front four.

I'm kind of hoping that we land someone like Paea or Suh, re-sign JPP, and then draft two DEs (Smith and Anderson, for example). Time to refortify the DL.
yat  
JonC : 2/7/2015 4:38 pm : link
I was ok letting Joseph go, keep the cap slot for Hankins later, whom is showing much more promise than LJ. The problem I had was signing DRC instead.

Suh will be massively expensive but we know NYG loved Paea in the draft (and I was on record saying we'd pick him when we outsmarted ourselves and gambled on Austin). Not sure a DT such as Paea is really worth the UFA dollars though.

If they let JPP go, they'll have some space to go after replacements, but it's difficult to replace a solid DE.

Yat, Jon  
Rjanyg : 2/7/2015 5:27 pm : link
What about Derrick Morgan or Greg Hardy? I believe Morgan was drafted right after JPP in the 2010. He is listed as a OLB but is the size of a DE. Hardy had obvious baggage but may be more affordable and could be had on an incentive laden contract. Both have seemed to be healthy physically over their careers.

While I would prefer JPP to a smart long term deal, these 2 may be viable replacements if it doesn't work out.
RE: yat  
BlueLou : 2/7/2015 5:45 pm : link
In comment 12127721 JonC said:
Quote:
I was ok letting Joseph go, keep the cap slot for Hankins later, whom is showing much more promise than LJ. The problem I had was signing DRC instead.

Suh will be massively expensive but we know NYG loved Paea in the draft (and I was on record saying we'd pick him when we outsmarted ourselves and gambled on Austin). Not sure a DT such as Paea is really worth the UFA dollars though.

If they let JPP go, they'll have some space to go after replacements, but it's difficult to replace a solid DE.


How much do you think Paea will cost? I don't think he's a top shelf signing at this point, and his arrow is pointing up, a bit like Ayers last year. IMO he's an upgrade over Patterson (certainly) and even Jenkins (prolly) at this point...

I could imagine JR grabbing a guy like DHB on the cheap, too, and an OL at a somewhat lower level than Franklin...
Lou, I have no idea how much he'd cost.  
yatqb : 2/7/2015 10:18 pm : link
I'm not a cap guy by any means. I just know we can get a lot of things done if we sign guys to contacts that extend bonuses out a number of years.
Lou  
JonC : 2/8/2015 8:06 am : link
I really don't know yet. He's definitely not a top shelf DT, but I tend to think he can attract a deal like Linval's.

Rj, Hardy is a poor character risk, and Morgan has done very little in the NFL to warrant his draft status. Two significant risks.
RE: You don't solve a teams main problems in FA. Many have tried and all  
TMS : 2/8/2015 5:18 pm : link
In comment 12126626 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
have failed. How many teams "win the off season" and suck when the shooting starts? The 2011 Eagles? LAST. The team that "lost the off season" and did nothing? The Super Bowl Champion NY Giants.Relying on FA to build a team leaves an expensive, inflexible roster and cap problems.

The Giants roster problem is a 5 year run of poor drafts from 2008-2012. The last 2 look to have been solid. They need 2 more. You can then add a key piece or 2 in FA (like Kareem McKenzie, Burress, Rolle).
Good post. Our problems have come from the bad drafts and then scrambling in FA to make it up. Think Reese has gotten a clear message on this score from Mara.
If you have bad drafts  
brian : 2/10/2015 10:46 pm : link
You really have no choice but to go after FAs. The one problem is to eliminate bad drafts.
Free agency probably says more about past drafts than the upcoming one  
Big Blue Blogger : 2/11/2015 6:28 am : link
You can get some pretty good clues about the team's self-scouting from their veteran signings. Stopgaps like Myers, Jenkins, Thurmond, Brown and Jerry said a lot about the organization's confidence in recent draftees like Robinson, Austin, Hosley, Brewer and Mosley. You could add Jennings as a harbinger for Wilson, though the need for a hedge there was pretty obvious.

This March, positions to watch for clues about young players currently on roster will include:
S: How many eggs go in the Cooper Taylor/Nat Berhe basket?
3-technique DT - Is Bromley ready? (this one might remain unanswered if the team still regards Jenkins as a viable bridge);
TE - Will the Giants roll with Donnell and Robinson?
RB - Is Andre Williams still viewed as a potential #1 back?
DE - Damontre Moore: yes, no, maybe?

There are also glaring issues at LB and OL, but they mostly involve older vets and I doubt the answers will come in March. Even if Beason gets cut, we'll probably have to wait a few months to see the new plan.
I'm beginning to hate free agency  
Spock : 2/11/2015 6:31 am : link
Too many over paid players who all seem to get injured.
Spock: There might be a recency effect there.  
Big Blue Blogger : 2/11/2015 7:00 am : link
Try to imagine SB XLII without McKenzie, Pierce, Burress and Madison, or SB XLVI without Rolle, Canty, Boley, Baas and Grant.
JonC, BBB  
giants#1 : 2/11/2015 7:57 am : link
Technically the Giants have a ton of cap space for 2016. They currently have only $66M in cap outlays for that season, so assuming a cap near $150M they'd be looking at $80-85M in space. But, Eli and JPP aren't included in that number. Once Eli signs his extension and assuming JPP is re-signed, that figure will probably drop by at least $30M, depending on the exact structure of the deals. Add in draft picks from this year and next and you're probably looking at closer to $30-40M for a FA spending spree in 2016, which is still a nice chunk of change.

That space can actually benefit them this year in FA as it allows them to be a little more creative. For example, if they want to go after Suh, they could structure it so a good chunk of his guaranteed money is his 2016 base salary. Or give him a two-tiered signing bonus so that a chunk of it doesn't affect this years cap.

That's one of the subtle differences between teams that manage their cap well and teams like the Cowboys and Saints that don't. You can almost always find someone to cut to free enough room for a couple splash signings, but it'll severely limit your options. Unfortunately the Cowboys have been better lately (ironically the cap penalty they paid which prevented them from making any huge signings that offseason helped here), but they are still likely to lose some combo of Murray, Carter, and Free this offseason due to cap mismanagement.
BBB  
giants#1 : 2/11/2015 8:02 am : link
meant to add this to my last post.

Don't think they bring in any starter quality players at TE/RB via FA. They might add a Fells type player (or re-sign Fells), but it's hard to imagine spending much on TE after the season Donnell had (blocking aside) when they have much bigger holes - I'm surprised S isn't talked about much more here.

Ditto RB. Jennings/Williams aren't going to set the world on fire, but the team would be better served using their FA money to upgrade LG/RT. That'll help keep Eli clean and give the two RBs a boost.

I do think they look at TE/RB in the draft though. Maybe even as early as round 2, but more likely round 3 and after.
I'm not sure what to think about Donnell.  
Big Blue Blogger : 2/11/2015 8:29 am : link
Blocking and ball security are bad areas for a tight end to suck. LD has tools, but I wonder: if he were a third-round pick rather than a UDFA, would we consider him a find, or a coach-killing nugget of fool's gold? The UFA TE pool stinks anyway, so there isn't much to say about this position until May. Fells probably earned another contract, and a small bonus - from somebody, if not from the Giants.

At running back, there's a need for (at least) a third-down type. One option is to give Jennings that role and go with Williams as the plough-horse. RJ might not fit the Darren Sproles stereotype, but neither did Derrick Ward. Besides, Jennings might last longer as a complementary player.
LD  
giants#1 : 2/11/2015 8:45 am : link
I think LD's fumbling issues are correctable. He went from 3 catches combined in 2012/2013 to 63 last season so it's reasonable to think he's not used to carrying the ball and his form got a little "lazy" at times. Now that he's established himself as a legit receiving threat (finished the year 9th in rec, 13th in yards, 7th in TDs), he can focus more on some of the other aspects in camp. Plus as the #1 TE from the start, he'll get a lot more reps.

They definitely need a Dan Campbell type blocking TE to complement him though.

RB - I agree they need to improve on 3rd downs there, but I think they envisioned Jennings carrying a lot of that load last year as he's a good receiving RB. He's not a shifty guy like Sproles/Vereen but he'll catch some dump-offs and make some plays there. And with Williams emergence (if you can call it that), they could give AW more carries early in games/series to reduce Jennings workload. Hard to see them bringing in a FA RB for much more than the vet min + small bonus, but I can absolutely see them grabbing a RB in rds 2-4 if the values there (supposedly a strong RB draft).

That said, they lack depth almost everywhere so I can see them going in just about any direction with the draft...
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