But the run defense of this team was awful. Who inspires any hope in that regard except Hankins? Patterson should not be resigned, and Jenkins should probably be cut. Bromley has promise but needs to develop. Kuhn is for ST. Ayers is mostly for passing downs.
We need to treat DT like the OL. Most of the backups should be jettisoned. We then need to get a vet DT in FA, and use a day one or two pick on a solid run stuffing DT.
...my first thought was, "Christ, I'd hate to get hit by that guy!" What a beast he is, and should only get better, particularly as the cast around him (hopefully) improves.
As far as JPP goes, I'm a bit ambivalent. It seems to me that he doesn't really want to be a Giant player anymore. That's not really based on any facts, just an impression that, aside from the normal quest for more money, he's got a case of the ass for some reason.
I also don't really trust his ongoing health. Back problems can be managed, but they don't go away. Constant grinding against huge OL can't be doing it any good.
It's too bad the Giants are SO dependent on him. If they let him go, there really isn't anyone who can step in and take that load, nor does this year's draft look particularly promising. Do we really want to try to replace him with someone like Hardy, who brings a ton of baggage and potential league sanctions down the road?
Well done. It's make or break this year for Moore. Bromley has to
However, someone mentioned: If the team is in the habit of giving a defensive linesman a 'redshirt year' and then letting him walk after a contract is finished, you are getting less bang for your pick, especially if it is a high one.
However, I would rather change that practice then let it dissuade the draft from an aggressive course.
I would also disagree that this is a bad draft for defensive linesmen, it could be just fine. There are any number of bigger defensive ends, and some big and angry DTs as well.
Remember- offensive line play, by contrast, is more mechanical. each team knows what it is about and does not really change the -system- from play to play or for any single player, regardless of what round they were drafted in.
Conversely, defensive line, especially with Spags, we hope, is almost more varied, needs to be, when successful, by definition to get into the other teams heads and space. So you can find ways to use the younger players, almost need to be more flexible than on OL.
Assume its just Hanks and Bromley at DT right now, you need 3 or so, who might not all be 'activated' all season, to fill a roster, practice squad.
Also- do you really want to let JPP play the bitch and be the only stand-out at DE? I think not. Look at what the no name kid did in limited reps.
however, his case might be a good example of how poorly the DE position is conceived by some. Here is a UDFA that nobody ever heard of, and arguably outplayed a (second or third year?) high draft pick in Demontre Moore.
How? by being a naturally larger athlete and more playing aggressively.
here is what Eric wrote about Wynn
''An undrafted rookie free agent signed after the 2014 NFL Draft, Kerry Wynn was a pleasant surprise. Not only did he make the 53-man roster but he received significant playing time in the final month of the season and finished the year with 17 tackles, 1.5 sacks, one pass defense, and one interception. Wynn has a nice combination of size, strength, and overall athletic ability. He appears to be a smart, heady player who performed well against the run. He did not really stick out as a pass rusher and will need to improve in this area.''
(I think he also had a fumble caused then recovered)
Is that he 'came on' late in the year. Why does that worry me? Because the teams we played in the back half of the year largely sucked. Against the better teams JPP was largely a non factor. In a contract year JPP really only showed up in games against inferior opponents.
I just really, really worry that this guy gets paid and will then disappear again.
But it was something like, If JPP is not re-signed, the Giants will draft Alvin Dupree at #9. I think that's a pretty good bet.
Personally, I would not use the franchise tag on JPP. I'd offer him a reasonable, relatively cap-friendly long-term deal, and if he doesn't like it and he walks, so be it. I'd hate to lose him, but I wouldn't overpay to keep him.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants used yet another Day 2 pick on a DT (someone like Houston's Joey Mbu in the 3rd round). I wouldn't be opposed to it, either, even though I hope they can sign one of the upper-tier UFA DTs, and I still have faith (probably more than most) that Bromley will develop. I would cut bait with Jenkins, and I would not re-sign Patterson. I figure the Giants will keep Kuhn around for another year because, well, they're the Giants and that's what they do with draft picks...for better or worse.
has to stop.....it was a mistake to sign Canty and Let Cofield go.....
I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?
Now basically, we have nothing, especially if JPP goes for the big bucks......
Which begs the question.....do you use the exclusive or non exclusive franchise tag on JPP? Each has it's own advantages....if the Giants don't think they can sign him long term, it's better to use the non exclusive to at least get draft picks.....on the other hand, if they use the exclusive, then other teams can't bid for him, and he might just take the one year guaranteed money, and then the process starts all over again next year.....
With lack of starters in the DL, linebacker and safety, we are in worse shape now then we were last year, when we spent all that money on defense....
So what do you fix first? Do you fix the offense to make them ascend the juggernaut pedestal, and put a lot of points on the board, hoping that Spag's can make something out of nothing?
Or do you go all in on the defense?
I think the way to go is, fix the offense first, because that is easier.....the defense is going to be another 2-3 year rebuild....
This organization and front office put this team in a hole since the 2011 season, because it played for now, not for the future....and now they are paying for it....
If so, I asked the question (several times) about the viability of using the transition tag over the Franchise tag because of the ability to match and if not getting draft picks and not one person answered/commented on it..
''I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?''
and we said so at the time. especially regarding patterson
jenk is a good player, getting old though
I never liked pattersons one dimensional plugging and lack of mobility, he would have been a great in a 1980's Bucs situation, apparently he had a step of some kind, but that is not enough anymore?
Kirwan: Overhauling tagging system | La Canfora: Salary cap cuts coming
Each NFL team can place an exclusive or a non-exclusive franchise tag on one of its players with an expiring contract in order to retain his rights during a two week window beginning on Feb. 17. The designation period ends on March 3.
Under the exclusive franchise tag, a player will receive a one-year offer from his team that is the greater of the average of the top five salaries (usually salary cap numbers) at his position once the restricted free agent signing period has ended (May 2) or 120 percent of his prior year's salary. A player cannot negotiate with other teams after receiving an exclusive franchise tag.
The 2011 Collective Bargaining Agreement changed how the non-exclusive tag is calculated. Instead of being the average of the top five salaries at a player's position in the previous year or 120 percent of his prior year's salary, whichever is greater, the formula component is now based on the average of the non-exclusive franchise numbers at a player's position over the last five years and their percentage of the salary cap.
This tag allows the player to negotiate with other NFL teams but if he signs an offer sheet with another club, his team has five days to match the offer. If the offer is not matched, his team will receive two first-round picks as compensation from the signing team.
The franchise tag was initially conceived as a method to allow teams to retain marquee players where it would act as a precursor to a long-term contract. Over time, it has become a tool that restricts a team's best free agent in a given year from entering the open market. Broncos left tackle Ryan Clady was the only one of eight players given a franchise tag in 2013 who signed a multi-year deal. The non-exclusive tag is typically used by teams, but quarterbacks are more likely to get the exclusive franchise tag than any other position.
Teams also have the option to use a transition tag instead of a franchise tag. The transition tag operates similarly to the non-exclusive franchise tag, except it is based on the average of the top 10 salaries at a player's position. Teams have the same matching rights as with franchise tags but do not receive any draft choice compensation for the transition tag. The transition tag has essentially become obsolete. It was last used in 2008 by the Pittsburgh Steelers on Max Starks.
This rotation at DT
Doomster : 10:32 am : link : reply
has to stop.....it was a mistake to sign Canty and Let Cofield go.....
I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?
This rotation at DT
Doomster : 10:32 am : link : reply
has to stop.....it was a mistake to sign Canty and Let Cofield go.....
I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?
the DL is really where the current roster needs the talent infusion.
If we're able to retain JPP, we still need to find his bookend at the other DE position, and perhaps Dupree or another will rise to the billing at #9.
I'd wager there's virtually no shot we go DT at #9, and I'd go LT (not RT or OG) there first, if Peat is available. Otherwise, revisit at #40 for either line.
That said, the interior DL needs a DT to give us the big, powerful young trio along with Hankins and hopefully Bromley.
If JPP leaves, we need two DE's and probably two DT's. Less than optimal given the dearth of resources per offseason, unless we somehow manage to poach a promising young veteran or two from other teams.
but I'd be surprised if JPP compromises to stay for those dollars.
If he departs, we'll have some ammo to address a few holes, and perhaps adding a Paea brings more value than the UFA DE options (I haven't looked, just speculating a tangent). NYG did hold Paea in high regard leading up to the draft, but I heard from two sources that his knee threw up a red flag. That, and Austin's supposed potential, well, you know the rest.
i agreed w/eric's write-up but i dont think he gave enough to Bromley. i thought he showed great promise last year and imo has starter potential.he did not fit in with perry's hold the line approach but i expect him to look much better vs. the run under spags!
He'd be great to bring in for rotation, especially on passing downs. Given their struggles versus the run, no way would you want him starting at this point in his career. also seems like a good elder statesman to mentor the youngsters.
He'd be great to bring in for rotation, especially on passing downs. Given their struggles versus the run, no way would you want him starting at this point in his career. also seems like a good elder statesman to mentor the youngsters.
Yup, especially if no one better can be brought in to replace him situationally
get that people want to replace Kuhn. I think for a seventh round pick who plays on ST, he's fine, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking to upgrade. The problem is that doing so becomes difficult if we also jettison Jenkins and Patterson, which we should. How much turnover can we have at one position without disrupting the chemistry that players need to play effectively? We frankly have the same problem with the OL. Some players who should be cut or not resigned may come back simply because we can't get rid of too many people in a particular position group.
since he sucks, but he's under contract for 2015 so he's a virtual lock to make it to camp. And I'm not sure they draft/sign 3 guys (or 2+ keeping Jenkins) at DT so he probably makes it as the 5th DT.
They haven't always, although they have in recent years. They used to keep only four.
Sure, but I think Kuhn has like a $10,000 roster bonus so there's virtually no harm in at least bringing him to camp. Bromley's already passed him on the depth chart, so it's not like you can even argue he's taking valuable reps from a young guy.
He'll likely be battling for the final DL spot with whatever late round/UDFAs they bring in.
Is that he 'came on' late in the year. Why does that worry me? Because the teams we played in the back half of the year largely sucked. Against the better teams JPP was largely a non factor. In a contract year JPP really only showed up in games against inferior opponents.
I just really, really worry that this guy gets paid and will then disappear again.
Totally disagree...JPP improved play can be credited for the following reasons...
1) The guy was hurt and rusty and finally got back to his old self after 1 1/2 years of not being able to do it because of back and other aligmentailments
2) People forget that JPP is young with a limited football background...and seemed to remember hearing chatter from Fewell and Coughlin on how they were finally seeing results from some of the new techniques he was being taught
3) No coincidence...the improved play of the DL and increase in sacks...came in the 2nd half of the season as some of our young players finally seeing the field and Kiwi, Patterson, Jenkins, Ayers siting
What I worry about is that the 2nd half was no fluke...and the people on this board are selling short JPP probably a top 3 NFL DE...
So the question is what if the 2nd half was no fluke as a result of the above...what do we do if JPP gets 20 sacks next year??
Do we do nothing and watch him sign in Dallas or Washington for nothing?
It's simple either franchise and pay the man...or find a team interested in a stud DE that will be willing to give up the right type of "compensation" appropriate for a top 3 DE...At a similar point in their respective careers...I would take JPP over hall of Famer Mike Strahan...JPP has more sacks and a better run defender...the only question is will he hold up physically...
has to stop.....it was a mistake to sign Canty and Let Cofield go.....
I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?
Now basically, we have nothing, especially if JPP goes for the big bucks......
Which begs the question.....do you use the exclusive or non exclusive franchise tag on JPP? Each has it's own advantages....if the Giants don't think they can sign him long term, it's better to use the non exclusive to at least get draft picks.....on the other hand, if they use the exclusive, then other teams can't bid for him, and he might just take the one year guaranteed money, and then the process starts all over again next year.....
With lack of starters in the DL, linebacker and safety, we are in worse shape now then we were last year, when we spent all that money on defense....
So what do you fix first? Do you fix the offense to make them ascend the juggernaut pedestal, and put a lot of points on the board, hoping that Spag's can make something out of nothing?
Or do you go all in on the defense?
I think the way to go is, fix the offense first, because that is easier.....the defense is going to be another 2-3 year rebuild....
This organization and front office put this team in a hole since the 2011 season, because it played for now, not for the future....and now they are paying for it....
DT Joseph was over-paid on the open market. We drafted Bromley and now MUST hope he starts and plays really well in his sophmore year. If we also draft DT Shelton we could be set at DT. You need those huge bodies on 3rd and short, goal line and 1st down against strong run teams. Bottom line: pray JPP stays for a decent price; pray DE Moore is a legit starter along with DT Bromely, and we draft defense well.
...my first thought was, "Christ, I'd hate to get hit by that guy!" What a beast he is, and should only get better, particularly as the cast around him (hopefully) improves.
As far as JPP goes, I'm a bit ambivalent. It seems to me that he doesn't really want to be a Giant player anymore. That's not really based on any facts, just an impression that, aside from the normal quest for more money, he's got a case of the ass for some reason.
JPP has the responsibility of looking for the best contract he can get. How many players get kicked to the curb when they have been used up by a team, sounds like a double standard to me! JPP doesn't warrant JJ Watt or Mario Williams money. A fair market price would appear to be about $11M a year, including performance based incentives due to his injury history. JMHO.
Enough is enough, Hardy was not convicted and has already served his suspension. He would come at a bargain price and Coughlin will require a conduct clause in the contract!
I also don't really trust his ongoing health. Back problems can be managed, but they don't go away. Constant grinding against huge OL can't be doing it any good.
It's too bad the Giants are SO dependent on him. If they let him go, there really isn't anyone who can step in and take that load, nor does this year's draft look particularly promising. Do we really want to try to replace him with someone like Hardy, who brings a ton of baggage and potential league sanctions down the road?
i agreed w/eric's write-up but i dont think he gave enough to Bromley. i thought he showed great promise last year and imo has starter potential.he did not fit in with perry's hold the line approach but i expect him to look much better vs. the run under spags!
Fewell was grasping and played Bromley sparingly. Just as Hankins was unspectacular in year 1, so to was Bromley.
Is that he 'came on' late in the year. Why does that worry me? Because the teams we played in the back half of the year largely sucked. Against the better teams JPP was largely a non factor. In a contract year JPP really only showed up in games against inferior opponents.
I just really, really worry that this guy gets paid and will then disappear again.
Totally disagree...JPP improved play can be credited for the following reasons...
1) The guy was hurt and rusty and finally got back to his old self after 1 1/2 years of not being able to do it because of back and other aligmentailments
2) People forget that JPP is young with a limited football background...and seemed to remember hearing chatter from Fewell and Coughlin on how they were finally seeing results from some of the new techniques he was being taught
3) No coincidence...the improved play of the DL and increase in sacks...came in the 2nd half of the season as some of our young players finally seeing the field and Kiwi, Patterson, Jenkins, Ayers siting
What I worry about is that the 2nd half was no fluke...and the people on this board are selling short JPP probably a top 3 NFL DE...
So the question is what if the 2nd half was no fluke as a result of the above...what do we do if JPP gets 20 sacks next year??
Do we do nothing and watch him sign in Dallas or Washington for nothing?
It's simple either franchise and pay the man...or find a team interested in a stud DE that will be willing to give up the right type of "compensation" appropriate for a top 3 DE...At a similar point in their respective careers...I would take JPP over hall of Famer Mike Strahan...JPP has more sacks and a better run defender...the only question is will he hold up physically...
JPP is not JJ Watt, Mario Williams or Charles Johnson. Franchise tag is too much, he appears to be worth about $11M/year. JMHO
DT Joseph was over-paid on the open market. We drafted Bromley and now MUST hope he starts and plays really well in his sophmore year.
What we don't know is what kind of effort was made by the front office to re-sign him.....the difference in cap between LJ and Jenkins was a little over 2M....for a starter vs a part time player....I rather make a 5.5M mistake on LJ than a 15M one on JPP....LJ's contact was reasonable for two years, and if he didn't live up to the contract is easily cut before the 3rd year....When they let LJ go, I thought they had a plan....Jenkins/Patterson was a poor plan....Yet, they overpaid Beason.....
We talk about how the OL was neglected...but what about the defense? At this moment in time, without JPP signed, we need 6 starters on defense....All you have is Hankins, Kennard(hopefully), McClain(nothing to rave about), Prince, and DRC.....and where is the depth?
Has the realization of all this struck Spag's yet? I was surprised he stepped back into this mess......
I'd be shocked if NYG paid JPP anywhere near open market dollars
is a Top 5 DE just entering his prime. Has helped the team win a SB, been to multiple Pro Bowls and had a fine 2014 campaign. Yeah, he started slow coming off of back surgery. And aside from the first game against Jason Peters, he damn near had his way with the LT's in our division and those are some damn good tackles too.
Really, what are the alternatives? Drafting a DE and waiting a year or teo for him to develop? Signing another FA? Don't think that sends the right message to guys like Hankins and Beckham, who will also be free agents one day. At some point, we have to promote from within. This may come as a surprise to some, but JPP can be the leader, that cornerstone piece of the defense. He's a vet now, has been to the mountain top, and the young players on D will look up to him. I don't want to overpay either but that term is relative. JPP will get a substantial offer from us and I think he takes it.
Not sure but I have been posting that DuPree could be the pick if JPP bolts for the money. Mainly because the obvious high value Reese puts on the DE position, it would take priority over WR, OL, S.
The alternatives are less appealing, but you can't overpay for actual production as it damages your cap allocations, and can create issues with the players overall.
I suggest you prepare yourself as I don't think NYG's value placed on JPP will be anywhere near open market value.
RE: RE: Looking at the lead photo of Hankins bearing down...
...my first thought was, "Christ, I'd hate to get hit by that guy!" What a beast he is, and should only get better, particularly as the cast around him (hopefully) improves.
As far as JPP goes, I'm a bit ambivalent. It seems to me that he doesn't really want to be a Giant player anymore. That's not really based on any facts, just an impression that, aside from the normal quest for more money, he's got a case of the ass for some reason.
JPP has the responsibility of looking for the best contract he can get. How many players get kicked to the curb when they have been used up by a team, sounds like a double standard to me! JPP doesn't warrant JJ Watt or Mario Williams money. A fair market price would appear to be about $11M a year, including performance based incentives due to his injury history. JMHO.
Enough is enough, Hardy was not convicted and has already served his suspension. He would come at a bargain price and Coughlin will require a conduct clause in the contract!
I also don't really trust his ongoing health. Back problems can be managed, but they don't go away. Constant grinding against huge OL can't be doing it any good.
It's too bad the Giants are SO dependent on him. If they let him go, there really isn't anyone who can step in and take that load, nor does this year's draft look particularly promising. Do we really want to try to replace him with someone like Hardy, who brings a ton of baggage and potential league sanctions down the road?
Hardy still faces the very real possibility of league sanctions. On top of that, the team who knows him best has said "no mas!". There's more than smoke here; just because his case didn't make it to court doesn't mean someone didn't get a nice payday to drop charges. That's the speculation around the league. Conduct clauses mean jack shit if you can't get the player on the field because he's screwed up, yet again.
If you think that JPP is going to sign for $11MM per, you would be way off. The only way he'd do that is if there was a massive amount of guaranteed money; something the Giants aren't likely to do in his case.
DT Joseph was over-paid on the open market. We drafted Bromley and now MUST hope he starts and plays really well in his sophmore year.
What we don't know is what kind of effort was made by the front office to re-sign him.....the difference in cap between LJ and Jenkins was a little over 2M....for a starter vs a part time player....I rather make a 5.5M mistake on LJ than a 15M one on JPP....LJ's contact was reasonable for two years, and if he didn't live up to the contract is easily cut before the 3rd year....When they let LJ go, I thought they had a plan....Jenkins/Patterson was a poor plan....Yet, they overpaid Beason.....
We talk about how the OL was neglected...but what about the defense? At this moment in time, without JPP signed, we need 6 starters on defense....All you have is Hankins, Kennard(hopefully), McClain(nothing to rave about), Prince, and DRC.....and where is the depth?
Has the realization of all this struck Spag's yet? I was surprised he stepped back into this mess......
It's certain that Spags knows a hell of a lot more about it than you ever will. The proof of the pudding will be in how Spags adapts the D to fit the players' strengths and weaknesses. I think Spags is looking at Moore (among others) and seeing all kinds of possibilities that Fewell, for whatever reason, couldn't or wouldn't exploit.
that TC had to force himself to give Spags needed lattitude on DL, and was paid back well for that.
and that, giving Fewell the same lattitude, that one put his chips into the DBs zones, etc. instead, that being hurt by lack of specific aptitude or health in the safeties and or injuries or miss matched skill sets amongst the corners.
never mind, many of us wanted more DL centric ball with simpler more implementable corner duties and it looks like we will get it.
The alternatives are less appealing, but you can't overpay for actual production as it damages your cap allocations, and can create issues with the players overall.
I suggest you prepare yourself as I don't think NYG's value placed on JPP will be anywhere near open market value.
I agree but we have no idea what overpay is. We made a pretty competitive offer to Cofield if I recall correctly. And that slob Haynesworth. For a piece like JPP, I think we shell out something he's comfortable signing.
The alternatives are less appealing, but you can't overpay for actual production as it damages your cap allocations, and can create issues with the players overall.
I suggest you prepare yourself as I don't think NYG's value placed on JPP will be anywhere near open market value.
I agree but we have no idea what overpay is. We made a pretty competitive offer to Cofield if I recall correctly. And that slob Haynesworth. For a piece like JPP, I think we shell out something he's comfortable signing.
Fortunately, the Giants aren't concerned with JPP's comfort. They're concerned with what's ultimately best for the team. That may mean a short-term hit for a longer-term gain.
re-signing JPP is that for $15M or so, couldn't we get at least 2 FA DL? Or other positions?
Tying up that much money with one guy doesn't seem to be a prudent use of cash resources.
Depends on the player. Tying Eli up for $20M is absolutely prudent and I'm not sure you're finding two players that would mean as much to the team's success as Eli.
If you want to grab 2 DEs instead of JPP, you'd be looking at guys like Bennett & Avril. Good pass rushers, but not nearly the all around player JPP is. Or you can grab one of those guys and a Linval Joseph level guy for DT. I'd say it's debatable whether these guys are an improvement over JPP and that's also assuming JPP gets $15M. I think (hope) he's more in the $12M/year range.
I think a big question with JPP (back issues aside) is what caused his surge of sacks down the stretch? The sacks were obviously there, but was he really getting more pressure or just getting there half a second sooner and ending up with the sack instead of just a pressure? Was it due to weaker competition? Was it due to the LDE/LDT finally getting more pressure (IIRC, Moore saw a boost in his snaps down the stretch) and Kennard was also applying pressure of the edge? When Kiwi was getting manhandled, it was fairly easy for QBs to slide up or to their right to avoid any pressure from JPP/Hankins. It stands to reason that even a little extra pressure from that side would keep the QB in the pocket slightly longer and thus potentially turn some JPP hurries into sacks.
Figuring out how much weight to apply to each of those is key in determining JPPs value.
Plus, I'd like to see what he could do with a different DC, especially a guy like Spags who knows how to bring some pressure from the back 7.
re-signing JPP is that for $15M or so, couldn't we get at least 2 FA DL? Or other positions?
Tying up that much money with one guy doesn't seem to be a prudent use of cash resources.
Depends on the player. Tying Eli up for $20M is absolutely prudent and I'm not sure you're finding two players that would mean as much to the team's success as Eli.
If you want to grab 2 DEs instead of JPP, you'd be looking at guys like Bennett & Avril. Good pass rushers, but not nearly the all around player JPP is. Or you can grab one of those guys and a Linval Joseph level guy for DT. I'd say it's debatable whether these guys are an improvement over JPP and that's also assuming JPP gets $15M. I think (hope) he's more in the $12M/year range.
I think a big question with JPP (back issues aside) is what caused his surge of sacks down the stretch? The sacks were obviously there, but was he really getting more pressure or just getting there half a second sooner and ending up with the sack instead of just a pressure? Was it due to weaker competition? Was it due to the LDE/LDT finally getting more pressure (IIRC, Moore saw a boost in his snaps down the stretch) and Kennard was also applying pressure of the edge? When Kiwi was getting manhandled, it was fairly easy for QBs to slide up or to their right to avoid any pressure from JPP/Hankins. It stands to reason that even a little extra pressure from that side would keep the QB in the pocket slightly longer and thus potentially turn some JPP hurries into sacks.
Figuring out how much weight to apply to each of those is key in determining JPPs value.
Plus, I'd like to see what he could do with a different DC, especially a guy like Spags who knows how to bring some pressure from the back 7.
Many effective sack artists pad against weak teams, so even though some BBIers like to place his sack totals in a vacuum(because we all know ALL of Watt's and Houston's sacks came against elite competition), his totals most likely mirror those of most others..
So that's for the Giants to decide. My sense is that the state of his back issues whether behind him or chronic, are going to determine whether or not we make a strong or token attempt to keep him, imo..
that's why I'm guessing the front office is more likely to look at his total pressures and not just sacks. Was he still generating pressure against the good teams/QBs? Hell, a big difference between a good QB and an average one is the ability to get rid of the ball before taking the sack (even if it's simply throwing it away). While not as good as a sack, forcing a quick throw is still a plus for the D as it greatly increases the chance of an incompletion/INT.
Sack numbers are mainly used for contract negotiations
that's why I'm guessing the front office is more likely to look at his total pressures and not just sacks. Was he still generating pressure against the good teams/QBs? Hell, a big difference between a good QB and an average one is the ability to get rid of the ball before taking the sack (even if it's simply throwing it away). While not as good as a sack, forcing a quick throw is still a plus for the D as it greatly increases the chance of an incompletion/INT.
I don't know what he's worth or what he'll sign for, but our problems on D had little or nothing to do with him..
And yes, his pressures (and run-stopping ability)will absolutely weigh heavily in terms of his athletic accomplishments..
But again, for me, his health is the biggest issue to me as a fan and to a lesser degree his motivation(which has been questioned, rightly or wrongly) once he signs that big contract
In a vacuum I think NYG draws a line around $12M per, very good money for a very good but not elite DE. But, is JPP worth 50% more than Cruz? $12M per is much more than any other player not named Eli earns in that lockeroom, and it doesn't leave a ton leftover to infuse the defense with UFA talent either.
In a vacuum I think NYG draws a line around $12M per, very good money for a very good but not elite DE. But, is JPP worth 50% more than Cruz? $12M per is much more than any other player not named Eli earns in that lockeroom, and it doesn't leave a ton leftover to infuse the defense with UFA talent either.
Yeah I think it'll be 12-13mil as well. Nice guaranteed money. And I think JPP bites.
But the run defense of this team was awful. Who inspires any hope in that regard except Hankins? Patterson should not be resigned, and Jenkins should probably be cut. Bromley has promise but needs to develop. Kuhn is for ST. Ayers is mostly for passing downs.
We need to treat DT like the OL. Most of the backups should be jettisoned. We then need to get a vet DT in FA, and use a day one or two pick on a solid run stuffing DT.
As far as JPP goes, I'm a bit ambivalent. It seems to me that he doesn't really want to be a Giant player anymore. That's not really based on any facts, just an impression that, aside from the normal quest for more money, he's got a case of the ass for some reason.
I also don't really trust his ongoing health. Back problems can be managed, but they don't go away. Constant grinding against huge OL can't be doing it any good.
It's too bad the Giants are SO dependent on him. If they let him go, there really isn't anyone who can step in and take that load, nor does this year's draft look particularly promising. Do we really want to try to replace him with someone like Hardy, who brings a ton of baggage and potential league sanctions down the road?
However, someone mentioned: If the team is in the habit of giving a defensive linesman a 'redshirt year' and then letting him walk after a contract is finished, you are getting less bang for your pick, especially if it is a high one.
However, I would rather change that practice then let it dissuade the draft from an aggressive course.
I would also disagree that this is a bad draft for defensive linesmen, it could be just fine. There are any number of bigger defensive ends, and some big and angry DTs as well.
Remember- offensive line play, by contrast, is more mechanical. each team knows what it is about and does not really change the -system- from play to play or for any single player, regardless of what round they were drafted in.
Conversely, defensive line, especially with Spags, we hope, is almost more varied, needs to be, when successful, by definition to get into the other teams heads and space. So you can find ways to use the younger players, almost need to be more flexible than on OL.
Assume its just Hanks and Bromley at DT right now, you need 3 or so, who might not all be 'activated' all season, to fill a roster, practice squad.
Also- do you really want to let JPP play the bitch and be the only stand-out at DE? I think not. Look at what the no name kid did in limited reps.
How? by being a naturally larger athlete and more playing aggressively.
here is what Eric wrote about Wynn
''An undrafted rookie free agent signed after the 2014 NFL Draft, Kerry Wynn was a pleasant surprise. Not only did he make the 53-man roster but he received significant playing time in the final month of the season and finished the year with 17 tackles, 1.5 sacks, one pass defense, and one interception. Wynn has a nice combination of size, strength, and overall athletic ability. He appears to be a smart, heady player who performed well against the run. He did not really stick out as a pass rusher and will need to improve in this area.''
(I think he also had a fumble caused then recovered)
I just really, really worry that this guy gets paid and will then disappear again.
The Bears will probably resign Paea. Of course, Paea would already be a Giant if we hadn't drafted Marvin Austin instead.
Eric- can we get that done stat?
(jk)
but...yeah.
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then Paea would be a nice signing..Still reasonably young
The Bears will probably resign Paea. Of course, Paea would already be a Giant if we hadn't drafted Marvin Austin instead.
Yeah but they would be letting him walk now a la Linval Joseph and Barry Cofield ;-).
Personally, I would not use the franchise tag on JPP. I'd offer him a reasonable, relatively cap-friendly long-term deal, and if he doesn't like it and he walks, so be it. I'd hate to lose him, but I wouldn't overpay to keep him.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Giants used yet another Day 2 pick on a DT (someone like Houston's Joey Mbu in the 3rd round). I wouldn't be opposed to it, either, even though I hope they can sign one of the upper-tier UFA DTs, and I still have faith (probably more than most) that Bromley will develop. I would cut bait with Jenkins, and I would not re-sign Patterson. I figure the Giants will keep Kuhn around for another year because, well, they're the Giants and that's what they do with draft picks...for better or worse.
I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?
Now basically, we have nothing, especially if JPP goes for the big bucks......
Which begs the question.....do you use the exclusive or non exclusive franchise tag on JPP? Each has it's own advantages....if the Giants don't think they can sign him long term, it's better to use the non exclusive to at least get draft picks.....on the other hand, if they use the exclusive, then other teams can't bid for him, and he might just take the one year guaranteed money, and then the process starts all over again next year.....
With lack of starters in the DL, linebacker and safety, we are in worse shape now then we were last year, when we spent all that money on defense....
So what do you fix first? Do you fix the offense to make them ascend the juggernaut pedestal, and put a lot of points on the board, hoping that Spag's can make something out of nothing?
Or do you go all in on the defense?
I think the way to go is, fix the offense first, because that is easier.....the defense is going to be another 2-3 year rebuild....
This organization and front office put this team in a hole since the 2011 season, because it played for now, not for the future....and now they are paying for it....
and we said so at the time. especially regarding patterson
jenk is a good player, getting old though
I never liked pattersons one dimensional plugging and lack of mobility, he would have been a great in a 1980's Bucs situation, apparently he had a step of some kind, but that is not enough anymore?
Kirwan: Overhauling tagging system | La Canfora: Salary cap cuts coming
Each NFL team can place an exclusive or a non-exclusive franchise tag on one of its players with an expiring contract in order to retain his rights during a two week window beginning on Feb. 17. The designation period ends on March 3.
Under the exclusive franchise tag, a player will receive a one-year offer from his team that is the greater of the average of the top five salaries (usually salary cap numbers) at his position once the restricted free agent signing period has ended (May 2) or 120 percent of his prior year's salary. A player cannot negotiate with other teams after receiving an exclusive franchise tag.
The 2011 Collective Bargaining Agreement changed how the non-exclusive tag is calculated. Instead of being the average of the top five salaries at a player's position in the previous year or 120 percent of his prior year's salary, whichever is greater, the formula component is now based on the average of the non-exclusive franchise numbers at a player's position over the last five years and their percentage of the salary cap.
This tag allows the player to negotiate with other NFL teams but if he signs an offer sheet with another club, his team has five days to match the offer. If the offer is not matched, his team will receive two first-round picks as compensation from the signing team.
The franchise tag was initially conceived as a method to allow teams to retain marquee players where it would act as a precursor to a long-term contract. Over time, it has become a tool that restricts a team's best free agent in a given year from entering the open market. Broncos left tackle Ryan Clady was the only one of eight players given a franchise tag in 2013 who signed a multi-year deal. The non-exclusive tag is typically used by teams, but quarterbacks are more likely to get the exclusive franchise tag than any other position.
Teams also have the option to use a transition tag instead of a franchise tag. The transition tag operates similarly to the non-exclusive franchise tag, except it is based on the average of the top 10 salaries at a player's position. Teams have the same matching rights as with franchise tags but do not receive any draft choice compensation for the transition tag. The transition tag has essentially become obsolete. It was last used in 2008 by the Pittsburgh Steelers on Max Starks.
Obviously, working out a long term deal would be the ideal, assuming they feel he's worth it in the first place..
Doomster : 10:32 am : link : reply
has to stop.....it was a mistake to sign Canty and Let Cofield go.....
I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?
Doomster : 10:32 am : link : reply
has to stop.....it was a mistake to sign Canty and Let Cofield go.....
I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?
+Eleventy billion.
you still need at least one more big-assed almost nose type, otherwise you will rarely be able to set Bromley and Hank free to attack a gap.
and we obviously also need a much better pass rush as well.
I just don't see how we can go through this draft without multiple picks at DL.
sure, I have touted players who can do it all, not the speedsters, but tough 3/4 type ends at end an occasionally at an interior spot.
But we will STILL need a big, multiple DT to allow Hank and hopefully Bromley as well as the new guys to thrive on those long stretches.
If we're able to retain JPP, we still need to find his bookend at the other DE position, and perhaps Dupree or another will rise to the billing at #9.
I'd wager there's virtually no shot we go DT at #9, and I'd go LT (not RT or OG) there first, if Peat is available. Otherwise, revisit at #40 for either line.
That said, the interior DL needs a DT to give us the big, powerful young trio along with Hankins and hopefully Bromley.
If JPP leaves, we need two DE's and probably two DT's. Less than optimal given the dearth of resources per offseason, unless we somehow manage to poach a promising young veteran or two from other teams.
If he departs, we'll have some ammo to address a few holes, and perhaps adding a Paea brings more value than the UFA DE options (I haven't looked, just speculating a tangent). NYG did hold Paea in high regard leading up to the draft, but I heard from two sources that his knee threw up a red flag. That, and Austin's supposed potential, well, you know the rest.
I'd assume Patterson and Kuhn will be gone.
The other issue about JPP is that he has had two injury impacted seasons.
Don't see Suh or even Paea as realistic possibilities. Paea is the consolation prize for the losers of the Suh sweepstakes - he'll be too expensive.
I'd assume Patterson and Kuhn will be gone.
The other issue about JPP is that he has had two injury impacted seasons.
Don't see Suh or even Paea as realistic possibilities. Paea is the consolation prize for the losers of the Suh sweepstakes - he'll be too expensive.
I wish I knew the chronicity issue(if there is one) of JPP's back before giving a definitive fan opinion..Thankfully, the Giants know
Yup, especially if no one better can be brought in to replace him situationally
Sure, but I think Kuhn has like a $10,000 roster bonus so there's virtually no harm in at least bringing him to camp. Bromley's already passed him on the depth chart, so it's not like you can even argue he's taking valuable reps from a young guy.
He'll likely be battling for the final DL spot with whatever late round/UDFAs they bring in.
I just really, really worry that this guy gets paid and will then disappear again.
Totally disagree...JPP improved play can be credited for the following reasons...
1) The guy was hurt and rusty and finally got back to his old self after 1 1/2 years of not being able to do it because of back and other aligmentailments
2) People forget that JPP is young with a limited football background...and seemed to remember hearing chatter from Fewell and Coughlin on how they were finally seeing results from some of the new techniques he was being taught
3) No coincidence...the improved play of the DL and increase in sacks...came in the 2nd half of the season as some of our young players finally seeing the field and Kiwi, Patterson, Jenkins, Ayers siting
What I worry about is that the 2nd half was no fluke...and the people on this board are selling short JPP probably a top 3 NFL DE...
So the question is what if the 2nd half was no fluke as a result of the above...what do we do if JPP gets 20 sacks next year??
Do we do nothing and watch him sign in Dallas or Washington for nothing?
It's simple either franchise and pay the man...or find a team interested in a stud DE that will be willing to give up the right type of "compensation" appropriate for a top 3 DE...At a similar point in their respective careers...I would take JPP over hall of Famer Mike Strahan...JPP has more sacks and a better run defender...the only question is will he hold up physically...
I would have cut Patterson and Jenkins last year, and used that money on LJ....having LJ and Hankins in the middle for several seasons was the much better alternative....instead, Reese gambled on Beason....and now we have to gamble on rookies with no experience to fill the void?
Now basically, we have nothing, especially if JPP goes for the big bucks......
Which begs the question.....do you use the exclusive or non exclusive franchise tag on JPP? Each has it's own advantages....if the Giants don't think they can sign him long term, it's better to use the non exclusive to at least get draft picks.....on the other hand, if they use the exclusive, then other teams can't bid for him, and he might just take the one year guaranteed money, and then the process starts all over again next year.....
With lack of starters in the DL, linebacker and safety, we are in worse shape now then we were last year, when we spent all that money on defense....
So what do you fix first? Do you fix the offense to make them ascend the juggernaut pedestal, and put a lot of points on the board, hoping that Spag's can make something out of nothing?
Or do you go all in on the defense?
I think the way to go is, fix the offense first, because that is easier.....the defense is going to be another 2-3 year rebuild....
This organization and front office put this team in a hole since the 2011 season, because it played for now, not for the future....and now they are paying for it....
Tying up that much money with one guy doesn't seem to be a prudent use of cash resources.
As far as JPP goes, I'm a bit ambivalent. It seems to me that he doesn't really want to be a Giant player anymore. That's not really based on any facts, just an impression that, aside from the normal quest for more money, he's got a case of the ass for some reason.
JPP has the responsibility of looking for the best contract he can get. How many players get kicked to the curb when they have been used up by a team, sounds like a double standard to me! JPP doesn't warrant JJ Watt or Mario Williams money. A fair market price would appear to be about $11M a year, including performance based incentives due to his injury history. JMHO.
Enough is enough, Hardy was not convicted and has already served his suspension. He would come at a bargain price and Coughlin will require a conduct clause in the contract!
I also don't really trust his ongoing health. Back problems can be managed, but they don't go away. Constant grinding against huge OL can't be doing it any good.
It's too bad the Giants are SO dependent on him. If they let him go, there really isn't anyone who can step in and take that load, nor does this year's draft look particularly promising. Do we really want to try to replace him with someone like Hardy, who brings a ton of baggage and potential league sanctions down the road?
Fewell was grasping and played Bromley sparingly. Just as Hankins was unspectacular in year 1, so to was Bromley.
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Is that he 'came on' late in the year. Why does that worry me? Because the teams we played in the back half of the year largely sucked. Against the better teams JPP was largely a non factor. In a contract year JPP really only showed up in games against inferior opponents.
I just really, really worry that this guy gets paid and will then disappear again.
Totally disagree...JPP improved play can be credited for the following reasons...
1) The guy was hurt and rusty and finally got back to his old self after 1 1/2 years of not being able to do it because of back and other aligmentailments
2) People forget that JPP is young with a limited football background...and seemed to remember hearing chatter from Fewell and Coughlin on how they were finally seeing results from some of the new techniques he was being taught
3) No coincidence...the improved play of the DL and increase in sacks...came in the 2nd half of the season as some of our young players finally seeing the field and Kiwi, Patterson, Jenkins, Ayers siting
What I worry about is that the 2nd half was no fluke...and the people on this board are selling short JPP probably a top 3 NFL DE...
So the question is what if the 2nd half was no fluke as a result of the above...what do we do if JPP gets 20 sacks next year??
Do we do nothing and watch him sign in Dallas or Washington for nothing?
It's simple either franchise and pay the man...or find a team interested in a stud DE that will be willing to give up the right type of "compensation" appropriate for a top 3 DE...At a similar point in their respective careers...I would take JPP over hall of Famer Mike Strahan...JPP has more sacks and a better run defender...the only question is will he hold up physically...
JPP is not JJ Watt, Mario Williams or Charles Johnson. Franchise tag is too much, he appears to be worth about $11M/year. JMHO
What we don't know is what kind of effort was made by the front office to re-sign him.....the difference in cap between LJ and Jenkins was a little over 2M....for a starter vs a part time player....I rather make a 5.5M mistake on LJ than a 15M one on JPP....LJ's contact was reasonable for two years, and if he didn't live up to the contract is easily cut before the 3rd year....When they let LJ go, I thought they had a plan....Jenkins/Patterson was a poor plan....Yet, they overpaid Beason.....
We talk about how the OL was neglected...but what about the defense? At this moment in time, without JPP signed, we need 6 starters on defense....All you have is Hankins, Kennard(hopefully), McClain(nothing to rave about), Prince, and DRC.....and where is the depth?
Has the realization of all this struck Spag's yet? I was surprised he stepped back into this mess......
Really, what are the alternatives? Drafting a DE and waiting a year or teo for him to develop? Signing another FA? Don't think that sends the right message to guys like Hankins and Beckham, who will also be free agents one day. At some point, we have to promote from within. This may come as a surprise to some, but JPP can be the leader, that cornerstone piece of the defense. He's a vet now, has been to the mountain top, and the young players on D will look up to him. I don't want to overpay either but that term is relative. JPP will get a substantial offer from us and I think he takes it.
I suggest you prepare yourself as I don't think NYG's value placed on JPP will be anywhere near open market value.
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...my first thought was, "Christ, I'd hate to get hit by that guy!" What a beast he is, and should only get better, particularly as the cast around him (hopefully) improves.
As far as JPP goes, I'm a bit ambivalent. It seems to me that he doesn't really want to be a Giant player anymore. That's not really based on any facts, just an impression that, aside from the normal quest for more money, he's got a case of the ass for some reason.
JPP has the responsibility of looking for the best contract he can get. How many players get kicked to the curb when they have been used up by a team, sounds like a double standard to me! JPP doesn't warrant JJ Watt or Mario Williams money. A fair market price would appear to be about $11M a year, including performance based incentives due to his injury history. JMHO.
Enough is enough, Hardy was not convicted and has already served his suspension. He would come at a bargain price and Coughlin will require a conduct clause in the contract!
I also don't really trust his ongoing health. Back problems can be managed, but they don't go away. Constant grinding against huge OL can't be doing it any good.
It's too bad the Giants are SO dependent on him. If they let him go, there really isn't anyone who can step in and take that load, nor does this year's draft look particularly promising. Do we really want to try to replace him with someone like Hardy, who brings a ton of baggage and potential league sanctions down the road?
Hardy still faces the very real possibility of league sanctions. On top of that, the team who knows him best has said "no mas!". There's more than smoke here; just because his case didn't make it to court doesn't mean someone didn't get a nice payday to drop charges. That's the speculation around the league. Conduct clauses mean jack shit if you can't get the player on the field because he's screwed up, yet again.
If you think that JPP is going to sign for $11MM per, you would be way off. The only way he'd do that is if there was a massive amount of guaranteed money; something the Giants aren't likely to do in his case.
What we don't know is what kind of effort was made by the front office to re-sign him.....the difference in cap between LJ and Jenkins was a little over 2M....for a starter vs a part time player....I rather make a 5.5M mistake on LJ than a 15M one on JPP....LJ's contact was reasonable for two years, and if he didn't live up to the contract is easily cut before the 3rd year....When they let LJ go, I thought they had a plan....Jenkins/Patterson was a poor plan....Yet, they overpaid Beason.....
We talk about how the OL was neglected...but what about the defense? At this moment in time, without JPP signed, we need 6 starters on defense....All you have is Hankins, Kennard(hopefully), McClain(nothing to rave about), Prince, and DRC.....and where is the depth?
Has the realization of all this struck Spag's yet? I was surprised he stepped back into this mess......
It's certain that Spags knows a hell of a lot more about it than you ever will. The proof of the pudding will be in how Spags adapts the D to fit the players' strengths and weaknesses. I think Spags is looking at Moore (among others) and seeing all kinds of possibilities that Fewell, for whatever reason, couldn't or wouldn't exploit.
and that, giving Fewell the same lattitude, that one put his chips into the DBs zones, etc. instead, that being hurt by lack of specific aptitude or health in the safeties and or injuries or miss matched skill sets amongst the corners.
never mind, many of us wanted more DL centric ball with simpler more implementable corner duties and it looks like we will get it.
I suggest you prepare yourself as I don't think NYG's value placed on JPP will be anywhere near open market value.
I agree but we have no idea what overpay is. We made a pretty competitive offer to Cofield if I recall correctly. And that slob Haynesworth. For a piece like JPP, I think we shell out something he's comfortable signing.
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The alternatives are less appealing, but you can't overpay for actual production as it damages your cap allocations, and can create issues with the players overall.
I suggest you prepare yourself as I don't think NYG's value placed on JPP will be anywhere near open market value.
I agree but we have no idea what overpay is. We made a pretty competitive offer to Cofield if I recall correctly. And that slob Haynesworth. For a piece like JPP, I think we shell out something he's comfortable signing.
Fortunately, the Giants aren't concerned with JPP's comfort. They're concerned with what's ultimately best for the team. That may mean a short-term hit for a longer-term gain.
Tying up that much money with one guy doesn't seem to be a prudent use of cash resources.
Depends on the player. Tying Eli up for $20M is absolutely prudent and I'm not sure you're finding two players that would mean as much to the team's success as Eli.
If you want to grab 2 DEs instead of JPP, you'd be looking at guys like Bennett & Avril. Good pass rushers, but not nearly the all around player JPP is. Or you can grab one of those guys and a Linval Joseph level guy for DT. I'd say it's debatable whether these guys are an improvement over JPP and that's also assuming JPP gets $15M. I think (hope) he's more in the $12M/year range.
I think a big question with JPP (back issues aside) is what caused his surge of sacks down the stretch? The sacks were obviously there, but was he really getting more pressure or just getting there half a second sooner and ending up with the sack instead of just a pressure? Was it due to weaker competition? Was it due to the LDE/LDT finally getting more pressure (IIRC, Moore saw a boost in his snaps down the stretch) and Kennard was also applying pressure of the edge? When Kiwi was getting manhandled, it was fairly easy for QBs to slide up or to their right to avoid any pressure from JPP/Hankins. It stands to reason that even a little extra pressure from that side would keep the QB in the pocket slightly longer and thus potentially turn some JPP hurries into sacks.
Figuring out how much weight to apply to each of those is key in determining JPPs value.
Plus, I'd like to see what he could do with a different DC, especially a guy like Spags who knows how to bring some pressure from the back 7.
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re-signing JPP is that for $15M or so, couldn't we get at least 2 FA DL? Or other positions?
Tying up that much money with one guy doesn't seem to be a prudent use of cash resources.
Depends on the player. Tying Eli up for $20M is absolutely prudent and I'm not sure you're finding two players that would mean as much to the team's success as Eli.
If you want to grab 2 DEs instead of JPP, you'd be looking at guys like Bennett & Avril. Good pass rushers, but not nearly the all around player JPP is. Or you can grab one of those guys and a Linval Joseph level guy for DT. I'd say it's debatable whether these guys are an improvement over JPP and that's also assuming JPP gets $15M. I think (hope) he's more in the $12M/year range.
I think a big question with JPP (back issues aside) is what caused his surge of sacks down the stretch? The sacks were obviously there, but was he really getting more pressure or just getting there half a second sooner and ending up with the sack instead of just a pressure? Was it due to weaker competition? Was it due to the LDE/LDT finally getting more pressure (IIRC, Moore saw a boost in his snaps down the stretch) and Kennard was also applying pressure of the edge? When Kiwi was getting manhandled, it was fairly easy for QBs to slide up or to their right to avoid any pressure from JPP/Hankins. It stands to reason that even a little extra pressure from that side would keep the QB in the pocket slightly longer and thus potentially turn some JPP hurries into sacks.
Figuring out how much weight to apply to each of those is key in determining JPPs value.
Plus, I'd like to see what he could do with a different DC, especially a guy like Spags who knows how to bring some pressure from the back 7.
Many effective sack artists pad against weak teams, so even though some BBIers like to place his sack totals in a vacuum(because we all know ALL of Watt's and Houston's sacks came against elite competition), his totals most likely mirror those of most others..
So that's for the Giants to decide. My sense is that the state of his back issues whether behind him or chronic, are going to determine whether or not we make a strong or token attempt to keep him, imo..
Of course any analyst worth his salt is going to put weight on effort plays and look for consistent pressure whether a sack was the result or not.
And, of course, his ability to play the run.
I don't know what he's worth or what he'll sign for, but our problems on D had little or nothing to do with him..
And yes, his pressures (and run-stopping ability)will absolutely weigh heavily in terms of his athletic accomplishments..
But again, for me, his health is the biggest issue to me as a fan and to a lesser degree his motivation(which has been questioned, rightly or wrongly) once he signs that big contract
Yeah I think it'll be 12-13mil as well. Nice guaranteed money. And I think JPP bites.