Almost the exact #s I was thinking with roughly half guaranteed. Maybe even tack on a 3rd year at an inflated base to appease Rolle's ego and amortize the SB over. So 3 yrs/$15M structured ($3M SB):
2015: $3M base (guaranteed); $4M cap hit
2016: $3M base; $4M cap hit
2017: $6M base; $7M cap hit
So he'd get $6M guaranteed and it would essentially be a 2 yr/$9M contract with $1M dead money in 2017 (or forced paycut).
I've also used 3/15 in the recent past, that might be more appealing to him upfront, and pretty likely he wouldn't see the third year unless he's playing better than expected at ~35.
question is whether he's still a good safety, or whether Fewell's scheme and Giants personnel shortcomings (at LB) compromised his ability to play his position, and whether he can still bring it.
He hasn't made a lot of difference-making plays for us the last two years, as best as my viewing informs me.
I've also used 3/15 in the recent past, that might be more appealing to him upfront, and pretty likely he wouldn't see the third year unless he's playing better than expected at ~35.
Yea, it just softens the blow for a guy coming off a $35M deal and has a small benefit for the Giants 2015/2016 caps.
question is whether he's still a good safety, or whether Fewell's scheme and Giants personnel shortcomings (at LB) compromised his ability to play his position, and whether he can still bring it.
He hasn't made a lot of difference-making plays for us the last two years, as best as my viewing informs me.
He wasn't good this season, but he was arguably the best defensive player on the team in 2014 (with Prince), especially when he had an NFL quality safety in Will Hill playing alongside him. Aside from that stretch though, he's more or less played out of position due to CB injuries and having to cover for the crap next to him.
Rolle back, in that Deon Grant/Sam Madison vet role. I don't know if he's willing to take Deon Grant/Sam Madison money though.
No chance. He's not at that point yet. This is his last shot to get a decent payday. He's not going to take the same type of contract that a guy on his last legs would.
Rolle back, in that Deon Grant/Sam Madison vet role. I don't know if he's willing to take Deon Grant/Sam Madison money though.
No chance. He's not at that point yet. This is his last shot to get a decent payday. He's not going to take the same type of contract that a guy on his last legs would.
Maybe. I thought he looked very slow last year though. Maybe he was injured? I find it hard to believe he just fell off the cliff like that.
Rolle back, in that Deon Grant/Sam Madison vet role. I don't know if he's willing to take Deon Grant/Sam Madison money though.
No chance. He's not at that point yet. This is his last shot to get a decent payday. He's not going to take the same type of contract that a guy on his last legs would.
Maybe. I thought he looked very slow last year though. Maybe he was injured? I find it hard to believe he just fell off the cliff like that.
Arc - It's not uncommon for an older player to just lose it like that....it's not always just a downward trend.
A lot of times we don't notice because we aren't following that player directly.
The one player I remember in this regard was Charles Barkely....great player who just went downhill in a snap.
this past season wasn't his best. He's not going to expect a contract close to his last. Hopefully a contract can be agreed upon that works for all. We could do a lot worst than Rolle. Hope he finishes his career as a Giant.
I definitely thought his play dropped off from 2013-2014 but I think he also benefited from how good Hill was along side him in 2013 for half the year.
He'll still get a fair contract though, IMO. If not us, from someone else. Probably a 2 year deal and then he'll ride out the end of his career somewhere for less.
No Hill, no talent at S, a DC who was oft-overmatched, a defense that couldn't get stops, etc, and Rolle was being asked to perform a number of roles. He indicated it late in the season that it had affected his performance, and probably his confidence.
in an interview about his contract status, with Francesa if I remember right, something to the effect that 'I've had my payday'. This indicated to me he is willing to compromise and is expecting a pay cut. How much he is willing to compromise is the question.
I definitely thought his play dropped off from 2013-2014 but I think he also benefited from how good Hill was along side him in 2013 for half the year.
He'll still get a fair contract though, IMO. If not us, from someone else. Probably a 2 year deal and then he'll ride out the end of his career somewhere for less.
To be fair, save for last year, most safeties look good next to Rolle. He does a lot of the dirty work, freeing up others.
in an interview about his contract status, with Francesa if I remember right, something to the effect that 'I've had my payday'. This indicated to me he is willing to compromise and is expecting a pay cut. How much he is willing to compromise is the question.
Rolle is a gamer. Practices hard, barely takes a play off and hasn't missed a game. I could see him taking a cut and trying to win one more title.
a 1 year deal for about 3 million. He struggled last year and he seemed to get worse as the season progressed which really concerns me that he may continue to get worse. Hopefully Cooper Taylor or Berhe develop into solid safeties but the Giants still need to add a legit starter in free agency or the draft. I just hope they don't draft Landon Collins.
Once again, Reese is faced with no one on the Roster....Taylor has basically no experience, and has to be carried from the locker room to the field, for fear of injury....and outside of hurting his knee, what significant thing has Berhe done?
The Giants need two starting safeties , and neither of those guys is the answer....the fact that Berhe couldn't get out there instead of Brown or Demps, says something....
Which brings us back to Rolle....he is still, if he was on the roster, the best safety on this team......which is sad, because he did not play well.....it wasn't just the physical part, it was the decision making too.....I suppose you can blame part of that on a Fewell defense.....but he has always taken bad angles, and he is not a cover back....he is a free lancer....
Which brings up the comparison last year of Beason to the rest of the linebackers, and we overpaid him for the same reason....he looked so much better, than what was out there.....but what was out there was so bad,just being average looked great......
Yes I want him back, mainly because there is nothing else on this Giant team, at the moment, that is better....but, I am thinking 2-3M, and more towards the low end....he was overpaid the last three years and should realize it.....
But don't be surprised, if there is a team out there willing to give him more than the Giants.....agents have a way of glorifying their clients to prospective teams....that is what they get paid for....
In truth, I would rather see the Giants get two new starters, and have Rolle be ready as a backup....but at the right price....
Troy Polamalu Age 33 at $8,250,000
or
Charles Woodson Age 38 at $4,200,000
or how about this guy Age 30....
S Antoine Bethea signed a four year, $21 million contract with the San Francisco 49ers on March 12, 2014. Bethea received $6.25 million in fully guaranteed salary. The guarantee included a $5 million signing bonus. In each year of the contract he can earn a total of $400,000 in per game roster bonuses and $100,000 workout bonuses. His 2015 salary is guaranteed for injury and will become fully guaranteed if on the roster on April 1, 2015. Base salaries of the contract are $1,250,000(2014), $3,000,000(2015), $4,500,000(2016), and $5,250,000(2017)
of the cap they feel they can afford to allocate to the safety position. Rolle has been paid extremely well over the last 5 years. It would have to be around 3 Mill per year at most. I doubt he takes it. We still need to add another safety besides Rolle. Brown and Demps will be out the door if Rolle is brought back. Berhe and Taylor will be on the roster but not sure if they will start.
of the cap they feel they can afford to allocate to the safety position. Rolle has been paid extremely well over the last 5 years. It would have to be around 3 Mill per year at most. I doubt he takes it. We still need to add another safety besides Rolle. Brown and Demps will be out the door if Rolle is brought back. Berhe and Taylor will be on the roster but not sure if they will start.
Brown and Demps should be out the door no matter what.
Problem is Taylor hasn't been able to stay healthy so they have no idea what they have in him (well the coaches might, but we don't). Impossible for fans to really have an opinion on Berhe either at this point.
The cohesion in the secondary's been poor under his watch. None ic the young S's have been developed by Rolle. Sure hes the alpha male of the lockerroom but is he actially leading anybody anywhere?
Im a fan oc rolle and love his approach but would b careful overvaluing his leadership
type deals are way off base. He'll get numbers in the range of what Jon speculated and it wouldn't shock me if it was from NYG. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the current safety situation (Behre green, Taylor an injury risk, Brown mistake prone and the draft weak at the top) factors heavily into Reese's thought process.
The cohesion in the secondary's been poor under his watch. None ic the young S's have been developed by Rolle. Sure hes the alpha male of the lockerroom but is he actially leading anybody anywhere?
Im a fan oc rolle and love his approach but would b careful overvaluing his leadership
Will Hill developed nicely (on the field) with Rolle. Not sure they've really had any other young, talented safeties for him to work with.
Brown/Demps with cheap vet signings. Taylor can't stay on the field and Behre is still unknown.
is a stud regardless...i want rolle back but its for his football. His leadership can b replaced, hes really more if a rogue at heart and the secondary has been plagued by communication breakdowns
Theres a reason deon grant was the leader over rolle in 2011
Do i put all our d's breakdowns on 26? No. But i dont see evidence of outstanding leadership
The cohesion in the secondary's been poor under his watch. None ic the young S's have been developed by Rolle. Sure hes the alpha male of the lockerroom but is he actially leading anybody anywhere?
Im a fan oc rolle and love his approach but would b careful overvaluing his leadership
I was wondering about that.
We've been talking about the miscommunications in the back end for several years now.
The mainstay through all these years in the secondary with all the players that have come and gone has been Rolle himself.
Is it possible that Rolle is and has been a small part of the problem?
Or was he doing everything right and the screwups were all on account of everyone else?
They offer the vet what they believe his value is. The vet doesn't like it. They tell him, go shopping, come back to us with what you've got, and we'll talk again.
I think the Rolle situation will go just like that.
I want Rolle back (aside from his leadership) is because that will allow us to evaluate what we have in Berhe and Taylor for another year. That way, you only need 1 more safety as opposed to needing 2 more safeties.
You have to figure the Giants need to fill 2 spots on the OL, 2 spots on the DL, 1-2 spots at LB, 1 RB spot and at least one safety spot. Having to fill another hole at the Safety position only takes away resources that could be spent elsewhere to make this a more complete team.
The talk about leadership is overblown, as it's usually just about who is the most loud when it comes to hype, but it's not right to flip it and go after him for not magically turning shit to gold either.
Rolle is the clear vet leader and voice of this defense
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
I am not giving Rolle a 3 year deal. He was awful this past year and may be slowing down. We need to get faster and younger.
3 year contract that you can cut after 2 if needed. He isn't slowing down that much. Not sure where people are getting that. He will get at least 3/15 and we would dumb not to offer at least that. He is one of our better Def players and now we let him walk? NO we can't do that. Keep him, bring in another Safety. Get rid of him and you want to replace both starting safeties?
The cohesion in the secondary's been poor under his watch. None ic the young S's have been developed by Rolle. Sure hes the alpha male of the lockerroom but is he actially leading anybody anywhere?
Im a fan oc rolle and love his approach but would b careful overvaluing his leadership
I was wondering about that.
We've been talking about the miscommunications in the back end for several years now.
The mainstay through all these years in the secondary with all the players that have come and gone has been Rolle himself.
Is it possible that Rolle is and has been a small part of the problem?
Or was he doing everything right and the screwups were all on account of everyone else?
I don't know about "everyone else", but a good number of the screwups can be attributed to #27 never knowing where he's supposed to be.
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
I am not giving Rolle a 3 year deal. He was awful this past year and may be slowing down. We need to get faster and younger.
"3 year deal" means nothing without seeing the structure. If you look at one of my 1st posts on this thread, a 3 year deal can basically be structured such that it's really a 2 year deal and if Rolle declines a lot over those 2 years, you cut him with little penalty.
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
He was one of the worst rated safeties by PFF.
And before you want to keep using that lets look at last year. The FA rating from PFF for last year CB class had the number 26th best CB as Sam Shields, the 37th best CB from 2013 as Aqib Talib, the 64th rated CB was Antonio Cromartie. Those were just against the FA CBs!.. They were behind Aaron Ross, Trumaine McBride, and Terrell Thomas. Why bring guys in... Lets just keep the guys we had and we will have better CBs than if we had Talib, Cromartie, and Shields!
It is not the end all at all of rankings and should be used sparingly
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
He was one of the worst rated safeties by PFF.
And before you want to keep using that lets look at last year. The FA rating from PFF for last year CB class had the number 26th best CB as Sam Shields, the 37th best CB from 2013 as Aqib Talib, the 64th rated CB was Antonio Cromartie. Those were just against the FA CBs!.. They were behind Aaron Ross, Trumaine McBride, and Terrell Thomas. Why bring guys in... Lets just keep the guys we had and we will have better CBs than if we had Talib, Cromartie, and Shields!
It is not the end all at all of rankings and should be used sparingly
I think the veracity of their ratings vary greatly from position to position. I think they are much more "reliable" from guys in the trenches where you can easily grade them each play. DBs (particularly in zone heavy schemes) and WRs though are much more difficult.
He was terrible last year. The fact it happened in a contract year is the kiss of death. What realistic chance he is any better moving fwd? A year older and richer?
$1 million base and another million in possible incentives?
We could use him as the third safety for sure. He clearly lost that 1/2 step of quickness that he could ill afford to lose. I don't want him starting.
However, our options may be limited. This draft is looking weak for safeties. So unless we trade down and get Landon Collins, SS, in the teens or something I don't see a rookie being the answer to start.
Just a damn shame about Will Hill. We had the free safety of the next five or six seasons had he just kept his head straight after all his mistakes. Alas, it was not to be....so we move on with what we can.
How many other players in the league have seen every penny of their signed contract as Rolle($37 mill?) has?
Washington comes to mind right away.
Oakland seems to be the place old Giants go to get a final pay day.
Almost the exact #s I was thinking with roughly half guaranteed. Maybe even tack on a 3rd year at an inflated base to appease Rolle's ego and amortize the SB over. So 3 yrs/$15M structured ($3M SB):
2015: $3M base (guaranteed); $4M cap hit
2016: $3M base; $4M cap hit
2017: $6M base; $7M cap hit
So he'd get $6M guaranteed and it would essentially be a 2 yr/$9M contract with $1M dead money in 2017 (or forced paycut).
He hasn't made a lot of difference-making plays for us the last two years, as best as my viewing informs me.
Yea, it just softens the blow for a guy coming off a $35M deal and has a small benefit for the Giants 2015/2016 caps.
2014 wasn't his best year.
He hasn't made a lot of difference-making plays for us the last two years, as best as my viewing informs me.
He wasn't good this season, but he was arguably the best defensive player on the team in 2014 (with Prince), especially when he had an NFL quality safety in Will Hill playing alongside him. Aside from that stretch though, he's more or less played out of position due to CB injuries and having to cover for the crap next to him.
And the most he'll probably get on the market is in essense a one year deal with voidable years.
No chance. He's not at that point yet. This is his last shot to get a decent payday. He's not going to take the same type of contract that a guy on his last legs would.
Quote:
Rolle back, in that Deon Grant/Sam Madison vet role. I don't know if he's willing to take Deon Grant/Sam Madison money though.
No chance. He's not at that point yet. This is his last shot to get a decent payday. He's not going to take the same type of contract that a guy on his last legs would.
Maybe. I thought he looked very slow last year though. Maybe he was injured? I find it hard to believe he just fell off the cliff like that.
Quote:
In comment 12131675 2ndroundKO said:
Quote:
Rolle back, in that Deon Grant/Sam Madison vet role. I don't know if he's willing to take Deon Grant/Sam Madison money though.
No chance. He's not at that point yet. This is his last shot to get a decent payday. He's not going to take the same type of contract that a guy on his last legs would.
Maybe. I thought he looked very slow last year though. Maybe he was injured? I find it hard to believe he just fell off the cliff like that.
Arc - It's not uncommon for an older player to just lose it like that....it's not always just a downward trend.
A lot of times we don't notice because we aren't following that player directly.
The one player I remember in this regard was Charles Barkely....great player who just went downhill in a snap.
He'll still get a fair contract though, IMO. If not us, from someone else. Probably a 2 year deal and then he'll ride out the end of his career somewhere for less.
That's the question which needs an answer.
He'll still get a fair contract though, IMO. If not us, from someone else. Probably a 2 year deal and then he'll ride out the end of his career somewhere for less.
To be fair, save for last year, most safeties look good next to Rolle. He does a lot of the dirty work, freeing up others.
Rolle is a gamer. Practices hard, barely takes a play off and hasn't missed a game. I could see him taking a cut and trying to win one more title.
Jon, that sounds generous. If he doesn't take that, I think the Giants may have to look elsewhere.
Not even close.....
So what should the Giants offer?
Once again, Reese is faced with no one on the Roster....Taylor has basically no experience, and has to be carried from the locker room to the field, for fear of injury....and outside of hurting his knee, what significant thing has Berhe done?
The Giants need two starting safeties , and neither of those guys is the answer....the fact that Berhe couldn't get out there instead of Brown or Demps, says something....
Which brings us back to Rolle....he is still, if he was on the roster, the best safety on this team......which is sad, because he did not play well.....it wasn't just the physical part, it was the decision making too.....I suppose you can blame part of that on a Fewell defense.....but he has always taken bad angles, and he is not a cover back....he is a free lancer....
Which brings up the comparison last year of Beason to the rest of the linebackers, and we overpaid him for the same reason....he looked so much better, than what was out there.....but what was out there was so bad,just being average looked great......
Yes I want him back, mainly because there is nothing else on this Giant team, at the moment, that is better....but, I am thinking 2-3M, and more towards the low end....he was overpaid the last three years and should realize it.....
But don't be surprised, if there is a team out there willing to give him more than the Giants.....agents have a way of glorifying their clients to prospective teams....that is what they get paid for....
In truth, I would rather see the Giants get two new starters, and have Rolle be ready as a backup....but at the right price....
or
Charles Woodson Age 38 at $4,200,000
or how about this guy Age 30....
S Antoine Bethea signed a four year, $21 million contract with the San Francisco 49ers on March 12, 2014. Bethea received $6.25 million in fully guaranteed salary. The guarantee included a $5 million signing bonus. In each year of the contract he can earn a total of $400,000 in per game roster bonuses and $100,000 workout bonuses. His 2015 salary is guaranteed for injury and will become fully guaranteed if on the roster on April 1, 2015. Base salaries of the contract are $1,250,000(2014), $3,000,000(2015), $4,500,000(2016), and $5,250,000(2017)
Cap Hits of 3mil, 4.75mil, 6.25mil and 7mil
Link - ( New Window )
With what we have on this roster without him, we cant afford not to try and sign him back at a fair deal.
League min is a joke, you dont pay starters league min.
This is a case where you have to evaluate his physical ability rather than stats you saw on the field.
Brown and Demps should be out the door no matter what.
Problem is Taylor hasn't been able to stay healthy so they have no idea what they have in him (well the coaches might, but we don't). Impossible for fans to really have an opinion on Berhe either at this point.
You sure about that? Did you even see him play last year. He was very good.
Im a fan oc rolle and love his approach but would b careful overvaluing his leadership
Im a fan oc rolle and love his approach but would b careful overvaluing his leadership
Will Hill developed nicely (on the field) with Rolle. Not sure they've really had any other young, talented safeties for him to work with.
Brown/Demps with cheap vet signings. Taylor can't stay on the field and Behre is still unknown.
Theres a reason deon grant was the leader over rolle in 2011
Do i put all our d's breakdowns on 26? No. But i dont see evidence of outstanding leadership
Im a fan oc rolle and love his approach but would b careful overvaluing his leadership
I was wondering about that.
We've been talking about the miscommunications in the back end for several years now.
The mainstay through all these years in the secondary with all the players that have come and gone has been Rolle himself.
Is it possible that Rolle is and has been a small part of the problem?
Or was he doing everything right and the screwups were all on account of everyone else?
I think the Rolle situation will go just like that.
You have to figure the Giants need to fill 2 spots on the OL, 2 spots on the DL, 1-2 spots at LB, 1 RB spot and at least one safety spot. Having to fill another hole at the Safety position only takes away resources that could be spent elsewhere to make this a more complete team.
I am not giving Rolle a 3 year deal. He was awful this past year and may be slowing down. We need to get faster and younger.
The talk about leadership is overblown, as it's usually just about who is the most loud when it comes to hype, but it's not right to flip it and go after him for not magically turning shit to gold either.
JPP is not a leader like Tuck and Strahan or even Antonio were.
Quote:
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
I am not giving Rolle a 3 year deal. He was awful this past year and may be slowing down. We need to get faster and younger.
3 year contract that you can cut after 2 if needed. He isn't slowing down that much. Not sure where people are getting that. He will get at least 3/15 and we would dumb not to offer at least that. He is one of our better Def players and now we let him walk? NO we can't do that. Keep him, bring in another Safety. Get rid of him and you want to replace both starting safeties?
Quote:
The cohesion in the secondary's been poor under his watch. None ic the young S's have been developed by Rolle. Sure hes the alpha male of the lockerroom but is he actially leading anybody anywhere?
Im a fan oc rolle and love his approach but would b careful overvaluing his leadership
I was wondering about that.
We've been talking about the miscommunications in the back end for several years now.
The mainstay through all these years in the secondary with all the players that have come and gone has been Rolle himself.
Is it possible that Rolle is and has been a small part of the problem?
Or was he doing everything right and the screwups were all on account of everyone else?
I don't know about "everyone else", but a good number of the screwups can be attributed to #27 never knowing where he's supposed to be.
Quote:
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
I am not giving Rolle a 3 year deal. He was awful this past year and may be slowing down. We need to get faster and younger.
"3 year deal" means nothing without seeing the structure. If you look at one of my 1st posts on this thread, a 3 year deal can basically be structured such that it's really a 2 year deal and if Rolle declines a lot over those 2 years, you cut him with little penalty.
He was one of the worst rated safeties by PFF.
Quote:
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
He was one of the worst rated safeties by PFF.
PFF is one of the most over used rating by fans ever!..... Evvvvveeeerrrrrr
Get some health at CB and let him do what he does best in the defensive backfield
Finding S in FA is as hard as finding LT
Quote:
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
He was one of the worst rated safeties by PFF.
And before you want to keep using that lets look at last year. The FA rating from PFF for last year CB class had the number 26th best CB as Sam Shields, the 37th best CB from 2013 as Aqib Talib, the 64th rated CB was Antonio Cromartie. Those were just against the FA CBs!.. They were behind Aaron Ross, Trumaine McBride, and Terrell Thomas. Why bring guys in... Lets just keep the guys we had and we will have better CBs than if we had Talib, Cromartie, and Shields!
It is not the end all at all of rankings and should be used sparingly
Get some health at CB and let him do what he does best in the defensive backfield
Finding S in FA is as hard as finding LT
We found Rolle in FA, didn't we? And Deon Grant, too, no?
Quote:
In comment 12132067 Amtoft said:
Quote:
He wasn't great last year, but he wasn't bad by far. Pay the man... 3/15 sounds right to me.
He was one of the worst rated safeties by PFF.
And before you want to keep using that lets look at last year. The FA rating from PFF for last year CB class had the number 26th best CB as Sam Shields, the 37th best CB from 2013 as Aqib Talib, the 64th rated CB was Antonio Cromartie. Those were just against the FA CBs!.. They were behind Aaron Ross, Trumaine McBride, and Terrell Thomas. Why bring guys in... Lets just keep the guys we had and we will have better CBs than if we had Talib, Cromartie, and Shields!
It is not the end all at all of rankings and should be used sparingly
I think the veracity of their ratings vary greatly from position to position. I think they are much more "reliable" from guys in the trenches where you can easily grade them each play. DBs (particularly in zone heavy schemes) and WRs though are much more difficult.
However, our options may be limited. This draft is looking weak for safeties. So unless we trade down and get Landon Collins, SS, in the teens or something I don't see a rookie being the answer to start.
Just a damn shame about Will Hill. We had the free safety of the next five or six seasons had he just kept his head straight after all his mistakes. Alas, it was not to be....so we move on with what we can.