I truly don't see the value at 9 to draft one of the OL when I see better value at other positions. I do agree we need to address the OL in some fashion this offseason.
My issue is the scouting reports and the posts on here that go something like this; (Insert OL name here) will be an alright LT, a starter at RT but an all-pro guard. There is no guarantee that a player will be an all-pro at G if he fails at OT.
The best players don't all play LT. It isn't a linear progression from one OL position to the next. Look at DD. He was a good guard that sucked when he went to RT but turned out to be a pretty good LT. Some players are better on one side of the line. It is like throwing a ball. Not everybody can throw righty and lefty. There is a comfort factor here. Some players may be better players on the left side of the line like DD because that is where he always played as opposed to playing on the right side or vice versa. IMO, switching from one side of the line to the other is more difficult than switching form G to T or T to G.
These positions aren't interchangeable. Some players have versatility and some don't. We see this with veterans all the time but when it comes to the draft, every player is flexible enough to play all over the line. This is like saying that if a DE is too small to play on the line that he may be a rotational player but if you move him to LB then he will be an all-pro. Or if we draft a corner but he struggles on the outside we can just make him a slot/nickel corner. That is absurd. Playing on the outside is mentally easier because you have less to know and worry about. On the outside you have the sideline to help you. As a slot corner your opponent has a two way go and it is difficult to keep up with him which is why guys like Cruz and Edelman are so effective.
I like Scherff, but suspect #9 will ultimately be too early for him. Beyond those two, I'm not looking OT at #9.
It appears their philosophy is value in DT begins in the second round.
JonC, what you say about Reese's propensities is true, and it has led to roster imbalance and severe roster weakness on the lines. Is it time to re-think his approach, does he have a mandate that he should adjust his approach, from above and below?
Big Blue - I'm not sure I share your confidence about Reese not reaching; Pugh was a reach, even if he's been ok, but Reese's prior choices forced OL on him at #1. Same, a bit, imo (and I know it's not widely shared here), with Wilson, because of same dynamic after TB went one slot ahead of us.
robbie, good post; unfortunately, these finer points on who you take and for inside/outside, left/right on OL do not jibe with the strong points on NY Giants' drafts of OL, to say the least.
Parker might be a step behind..
Injuries have also had a big impact on the roster when you consider all the draft picks that have been forced to retire due to injury. These losses are really key, in review : Smith, KP, Chad Jones, Wilson is a significant list of playmakers ... not to mention the rapid decline of Snee, Tuck, Webster at barely 30 yrs old.
I agree with you on Reese reaching btw, he's shown repeatedly he will reach for a player they've fallen in love with. But, even in a weak draft #9 is no time to go off the reservation!
I agree with JonC on the the lesser results from Ross/Reese on Day 3. We really need to do better there.
Right now, I can give you four Day 3 players that I think could really help the Giants roster:
1. Terrence Magee RB LSU- tough stocky runner in the AB mold. Last year he wore #18, the highest player award given at LSU for the team's leader. A great addition to Jennings, Williams, and Darkwa.
2. BJ Finney C Kansas State- Walton was simply not the answer and the middle of our line collapsed too often on running plays. Finney has the size needed and is hands down better than Walton or Reynolds.
3. TE Nick Boyle Delaware- Another problem with the running game last year was having a TE than can block. I like Donnell's future, but he was simply awful last year as a blocker. As a team that carries 3 TE's, we should have one that is best known for his blocking (also a Jersey kid)
4. WR Antwan Goodley Baylor- So much discussion about the top 4-5 receivers in this draft, but doubt many know much about Goodley. He is under 6 foot but I think he will surprise at the Combine with his weight (I am guessing 225-230) and 40 time. I also think he will show his strength during the lifting. He can beat press coverage and catches the ball with his hands. A Day 3 guy who will make your team.
With a slight trade down in Round 1 to get Brown, it gives us the flexibility to add picks to grab some Day 3 players that can help
For example, we took JPP at 15 even though he was raw because Giants saw that rare ability there. Reese also mentioned due to his unique blend of size/strength/speed he may buck the learning curve most unpolished players have and still be productive while learning the nuances of the game.
But there is no need for Clemmings as while there isn't much blue-chip depth at OL, I think Peat may be one of the best LTs to come out in a while and his inconsistencies last year were primarily due to maturing as an individual and a player.
Ogden's toughness was listed as one of his main weaknesses too. Not to say Peat is necessarily the next Ogden but he has been compared favorably to him by a few scouts.
Tremendous size, wing span, a great power base along with great lateral movement and ability to mirror. He is the entire LT package and alot further along than Clemmings is.
As far as overall depth, it is likely WR in the top 10 more than any position. Parker,Cooper and White all could carry top 10 grades on our board by draft time. If Peat isn't there and some darkhorse DE with prototypical Giant qualities (like DuPree) isn't ranked ridiculously high, WR is likely clear BPA when we pick.
Anything else would seem like quite a departure from the front office's drafting patterns and philosophies under J.R.
You can hammer Reese all day for his handling of the OLine, but he has drafted Pugh and Pugh using high picks the last 2 drafts and has dealt with some really shitty luck with Beatty's weird injuries and mid round picks not panning out.
I'd have to look back at previous drafts but I don't think he ever took someone in the first round and passed on a can't miss OL prospect. You'd have to go back to 2012 and even then we picked 32, and in 2011 we picked Prince who was definitely BPA and a position of need.
Point is, he's tried fixing the line and unfortunately some of his moves haven't panned out. If you aren't in love with an OL prospect why pick him over a guy with huge upside at another position?
Sooner or later a lineman we sign will pan out. I'm hoping that's this year.
Like a kid in the candy store, all that looks and tastes sweet is not good for long term health, dunno how he remains teflon coated, whatever.
to robbie's point and post, maybe this is a draft, assuming Peat, Scherff, and Flowers, et. al are there, you lean to a point I think GBN makes when he comes on BBI for his pre-draft Q&A that Giants like versatility; maybe that becomes really important this year with so many positions across the OL in flux in terms of who will play where (right to left): Pugh (stay at RT or preferably move to one of G); Schwartz (does he move to his old position and health issues)/Jerry (depth?); C (Walton presumably gone, and then Richburg or Brett Jones); LG (Richburg stays put? free agent, draftee?); LT (Beatty's successor/FA/draftee?)
According to BBI, and it makes sense to me, you can look at the OL as all five positions are in potential flux, this year, excepting possibly Beatty, and he's not a long term plus
I would be happy with these guys:
Peat (Sure up line early)
Ray,gregory (hope to god he falls),fowler, shelton
But i would be psyched if we took a WR just to stock up on weapons for eli. guys like White, cooper or parker.
This will help out the offense will OBJ being doubled from now on and especially if cruz is not 100%.
On the flip side, I think there will be a voice in the back of Reese and Coughlin's heads saying, "Can we really risk our Superbowl MVP caliber QB playing behind another substandard OL?" Eli's not getting younger and he has been remarkably tough. However, getting beaten to a pulp will take its toll.
My only point is all things being equal, I think there might be a slight lean towards the OL for this reason. No doubt we have huge needs elsewhere but we are not strong enough to compete yet without #10
</sarcasm>
Ditto. Until we see quantifiable numbers for all of the prospects, we are just blowing in the wind!
Peat.)
I agree we need a potential All-Pro on the team...but I would add regardless of position...that is probably the question that Reece will be faced with and will ask...I am glad that was the question asked last year...even though the Giants needed OL...and the majority of the people on this board wanted Donald...Reece choose the player he thought had the biggest potential to be an All Pro player and have the greatest impact...Odell Beckham...hoping regardless of who they choose they stick with this method of drafting...and lightning strikes twice...
why will they ALL be gone ??
Sorry, but I'm not sure that's right.
While I suspect there is a rough consensus as to who the top 15 players are, about exactly where they slot there is not. And teams DO weight need to varying degrees. So if Cooper or White were still sitting there at #9, I don't think it's impossible that the Giants would grab them.
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It ain't happening. If there are receivers worthy of a top ten pick they will be gone before the Giants are on the clock.
why will they ALL be gone ??
So if a true #1 WR were to fall to the Giants, there would likely be a seller's market for him in a trade down. And if there are no true #1 WR prospects in the mix at the 9th slot, only #2's, the Giants would be wiser to wait until round two, three, or four before drafting a WR. It's a deep draft at the WR position this year.
There's a lot of time before the draft and the Combine can have a significant effect on teams' perceptions of players. A lot can and WILL happen in the ranking on big boards before the draft.
Look, Randle is in the final year of his contract. Cruz may never be 100% again and even if he does return to true form by mid-season he'll be on the possible cutting blocks 2016.
If Cooper shows he can be an NFL starter during his rookie year, plays some, and Randle has a HUGE year you can let Randle walk and maybe get a #3 compensatory for him as he should put up big numbers with Beckham drawing double teams.
Now, if Peat is there and you think he is capable of being an above average starting OG or RT as a rookie you take him cause we really need to protect Eli. I'm just not so sure peat or scherff are as good as Cooper should they all be there at #9.
Look, Randle is in the final year of his contract. Cruz may never be 100% again and even if he does return to true form by mid-season he'll be on the possible cutting blocks 2016.
If Cooper shows he can be an NFL starter during his rookie year, plays some, and Randle has a HUGE year you can let Randle walk and maybe get a #3 compensatory for him as he should put up big numbers with Beckham drawing double teams.
Now, if Peat is there and you think he is capable of being an above average starting OG or RT as a rookie you take him cause we really need to protect Eli. I'm just not so sure peat or scherff are as good as Cooper should they all be there at #9.
Cooper is as about as polished as they come. He may not light it up like OBJ, but I bet he can impact at a #2 WR level (should Cruz not be 100%) and probably be better than Randle by mid-season.
Provided we land a quality starting G or T in FA , the only OL I consider over one of the big 3 WRs is Peat (just for his immense LT upside).
Even then I wouldn't be upset if we went with one of those WRs. Though this draft is so deep there are WRs into round 3 and maybe 4.
You know it's interesting but if you look at team needs of the 8 teams picking above us only a couple arguably have WR as one of their clear biggest needs (Raiders).
Falcs,Bears,Bucs,Skins are pretty good at WR and have a ton of holes elsewhere. Titans could use one too but that high up they could very well go Qb or a blue-chip D player. Jets need a Qb themselves and could easily go D.
Cooper despite the production, is not known as a freak size/speed athlete which could have helped cement a top 5 status over other players. If he falls past the Raiders, it could happen.
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You know it's interesting but if you look at team needs of the 8 teams picking above us only a couple arguably have WR as one of their clear biggest needs (Raiders).
Falcs,Bears,Bucs,Skins are pretty good at WR and have a ton of holes elsewhere. Titans could use one too but that high up they could very well go Qb or a blue-chip D player. Jets need a Qb themselves and could easily go D.
Cooper despite the production, is not known as a freak size/speed athlete which could have helped cement a top 5 status over other players. If he falls past the Raiders, it could happen.
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You know it's interesting but if you look at team needs of the 8 teams picking above us only a couple arguably have WR as one of their clear biggest needs (Raiders).
Falcs,Bears,Bucs,Skins are pretty good at WR and have a ton of holes elsewhere. Titans could use one too but that high up they could very well go Qb or a blue-chip D player. Jets need a Qb themselves and could easily go D.
Cooper despite the production, is not known as a freak size/speed athlete which could have helped cement a top 5 status over other players. If he falls past the Raiders, it could happen.
Tennessee badly needs offensive skill players, and have been very loudly supportive of Zach Mettenberger as the guy. I think that's a logical fit to get their young QB a weapon. Wouldn't shock me at all if Cooper ends up there. I don't think they're going QB.