There is a very good chance we lose JPP to a higher bidder or simply make the decision to spread the cash around. Even if they step up and pay JPP big money, we still need another starting DE on this team.
Do you know about George Johnson? He was in the same draft class as JPP. Athletic DL prospect and a guy I posted about a few times on BBI. 6’4” 270lb DE. Beat JPP in several drills including a 6.9 3 cone.
Johnson is a player I know very well.
Yes. That’s Rutgers on the jersey. I watched him closely at Rutgers and then again this past season with the Lions.
He was one of Schiano’s athletic 3 star recruits that they moved to a different position. In HS he was a 220lb LB with 4.5 speed. At Rutgers they moved him to DL and he flashed NFL-caliber movement skills as a frosh at Rutgers.
He had some nagging injury issues at RU that stunted his growth in year 2 and 3. Overall he had a solid college career. Because of his AA, they were able to play him at several spots. I thought he was a good late round prospect but he went undrafted.
Johnson was cut Minnesota released in Oct, 2013 and every team in the NFL made a mistake and did not call him. He finally got a late call to tryout for the Lions who had the most talented DL in football. It was an uphill battle with the Lions stacked at DE with Ansah, Jason Jones, Devin Taylor, they just signed Darrly Tapp as a FA. Plus they just used a 4th rounder on Larry Webster.
Johnson didn’t have any options. He said he felt it would be his last shot so he worked hard to get in great shape.. He cut some weight before 2014 training camp.
He had a very strong preseason and jumped up the depth chart from camp fodder to a guy that would be part of the team’s plans. Detroit’s head coach talked him up in August mentioning Johnson’s explosiveness and pass rush skills.
This long shot eventually made this team with a very deep and talented DL. During the season, he moved up to the #3 DE, played 35-40% of the snaps this season, and displayed a disruptive skill vs the run and pass. He had some very nice games including a nice payback game vs Min (the team that cut him a year earlier).
With his first shot at significant playing time, Johnson showed a lot of ability with the Lions. He does have an explosive step and excellent lateral movement. Remember, at 270lbs he ran the 3 cone in under 7 seconds. He’s also versatile and can be used at several positions.
At Rutgers, Johnson moved all over. He played inside and they dropped him in coverage. He can do the same in the NFL. Spags could move him inside on passing downs for matchups. He’s also athletic enough to drop in coverage in the NFL.
The Giants need to take a strong look at Johnson. It’s a value signing with a lot of upside. It just makes a lot of sense to bring him in and make a strong push to sign him.
If we lose JPP, Johnson could take his spot and start. If JPP comes back, Johnson can play on the other side. He’s a young guy. It won’t cost the team much. And he can do a lot of things to help them win.
A year ago, DE Willie Young left the Lions and signed for 3 years and $9mill with the Bears with only a $2mill bonus and 3.9 guaranteed. He's a guy who flashed in part time duty with the Lions(just like Johnson) and I wanted on the Giants last year. The Bears got a steal as he produced 10 sacks. Young was one of the best value FA of last year. This season, I think it will be Johnson.
We have a few holes we need to fill with value signings before the draft. I think safety is one of them and they should look at S Ron Parker (
http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2& thread=509209), we need DE depth which can be filled with George Johnson, and finally, we need to find a quality NFL starting OL.
If we fill these 3 holes before the draft, we can load up on offensive playmakers in the draft. I really want to surround Beckham with a couple of matchup advantages at WR and RB. At #9 in round 1, one of the top WRs will be there (NOT Cooper) and in round 2 or 3 there will be a few explosive RBs such as Coleman from IND, Abdullah from NEB).
Let's sign George Johnson and take care of a major hole with an inexpensive signing.
He had 10 in his first season with the Bears.
Johnson can do many things. He can start in the NFL and I do believe a team will steal him for Willie Young type numbers.
He had 10 in his first season with the Bears.
Johnson can do many things. He can start in the NFL and I do believe a team will steal him for Willie Young type numbers.
No, what's ridiculous is to expect a player at 27 to nearly double his career output in a single season just because its happened before.
Based on JonC's posts, I have the feeling you may be right, but let's see the Giants FO actually bite the bullet and say sayonara to JPP. They're flirting with disaster if they do so. The less risky option is to pay him a fair market contract and admit internally that he's slightly overpaid.
I watched every snap of the Lions. It was the #2 team I watched last year because of the DL. Johnson showed he can play.
25 years old
42 sacks
impact rush-defender
I have a feeling JPP is gone as well.
If JPP leaves we don't need a guy who has 6 sacks in 3 years. We need a proven commodity. Either Justin Houston, Jabaal Sheard, Jerry Hughes or Greg Hardy. Even if we do resign JPP I hope we go after Sheard. We can probably even get him for a decent price since he had a low Sack total last season. The reason for that was that he was playing out of position last year.
If he's a tick below average, he's an upgrade from Kiwi. Kiwi was awful last year.
I'd welcome him as competition for the "other" DE spot with Ayers/Moore, but I don't see how you can view him as a replacement for JPP. Even if he's Kiwi at his best, that's a few steps down from what JPP provides and the DL needs an upgrade as much as the OL.
"My off-season plan for the Giants: They should sign this guy who went to Rutgers. I also think they could get this guy, who also went to Rutgers. And maybe pick up this guy, he went to Rutgers. RUTGERS."
Signing George Johnson to back up Jason Pierre-Paul? Now you're onto something. But they need two elite pass rushers, and swapping JPP for Johnson doesn't get them there.
KWALL he could be great I don't know much about him, but I highly doubt he would ever be anywhere near as productive as JPP. Yes 6 sacks is a pretty solid season, but what offenses are really worried about him when they are going against Suh, Fairley & Ansah? You would think a guy on the same line as those guys would produce more sacks then 6 considering Suh sees constant double teams and they are also doing whatever they can to stop Ansah.
The thing is we have many holes and that guy is going to have huge offers on the table. If the Giants want JPP back they are going to have to spend a big % of the cap to do it.
If they sign him, I still look at Johnson. He's better than anything else on the roster after JPP.
Or...
Do we try and sign 3-4 different players for the price of JPP? There are holes all over the defense. We can pick up a quality S, DL and more for the price of JPP.
And finally, if we are spending big on one DL player, do we go after Suh? (I would).
I just don't think he'll be back. There will be no hometown discount with JPP. I'd sign Suh over him.
And while losing a player of his caliber hurts, the money can be spread around and fill many holes. If they do it right, then letting him walk and adding quality and severla spots would improve the D.
All of it doesn't mean a thing about this player. He's going to provide great value to a team in 2015.
With or without JPP, we need DE help.
Id like to see them find some quality before the draft at DE, S and OL. Johnson is a quality player.
Or totally ignore, as I do
At this point he might be a bit better then DaMontre, but th there is no way he has the potential of DaMontre. DaMontre showed signs of being dominant. He had very limited play time and still ended up with 5.5 sacks. KWALL do you have any idea on how many snaps he played last season?
And MUCH better than Moore. Moore is a creampuff vs the run. He's only a situational guy at this point.
I think even if they re-sign JPP, they need to add a solid vet at DE and/or DT. Not a star, but a better all around player than Ayers. Johnson sounds like he'd fit that bill.
And I'm not sure that signing two guys (e.g. a LB and S or DE and S) for the price of JPP makes them a better team, but I'd be open to potential combos. I'd be surprised if a player with Johnson's resume is able to even get Thurmond level money so I count him more as a bargain basement player than among the 2-3 guys you'd try to sign with JPPs savings (if that makes sense).
I like Ayers and it was a GREAT signing at that price. I'm glad he's back. But if I needed a full time DE, I'll take Johnson over him.
But they can also play together as both can move around and slide inside.
If we get JPP back we can have JPP, Ayers, Johnson, & Moore in on passing downs.
As often as he seemingly gets dinged, he still finished 5th in the NFL in snaps for DL (4th by %) and played over 90% of the defensive snaps.
Snap Counts - ( New Window )
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Jokes aside, I do like the idea. Kiwi's done and another DE is going to be helpful even if JPP (who always seems to get dinged and misses a few plays) comes back.
As often as he seemingly gets dinged, he still finished 5th in the NFL in snaps for DL (4th by %) and played over 90% of the defensive snaps. Snap Counts - ( New Window )
Thanks - perhaps those two are related? JPP gets hurt due to a lack of rest (which we can't afford to give him due to shitty depth).
Ayers had a 15.2 rating. Justin Houston was 1st with a 15.7. I can't find the exact rating for Johnson, but he was the 24th ranked DE. Ansah was the highest rated on Detroit with a 12.1 rating so Johnson was lower then that. They also ranked Ayers 7th in run defense for a DE.
Ansah had 416 plays rushing the passer with 64 pressures. Which was the best for Detroit. Ayers had 235 plays rushing the passer and has 46 pressures. So he rushed the passer 181 less times and had only 18 less pressures. If Ansah was the best for Detroit which according to PFF he was then there is no way George Johnson was better then Ayers.
No at this point Moore probably isn't as good, but he is only a 2nd year player that rushed the passer less then Ayers and still had 5.5 sacks. Do we really want to sign a 4 year veteran with 6 career sacks while playing with the best DLine in football to take away valuable play time from a young player who could possibly turn into a very good player.
Yes Johnson might be better at this moment, but he is a 4th year player. Moore was only in his 2nd year. Who was a better player in there 2nd year in the NFL? I'm willing to bet it is Moore.
Like I said I know PFF isn't perfect, but it's no coicendence that he's been graded in the top 10 for 2 years straight now. In 2013 JPP was ranked as the 6th best run stopping DE. Ayers was 9th that year.
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I have a feeling JPP is history with NYG. I think somebody gives him a number the Giants won't match.
Based on JonC's posts, I have the feeling you may be right, but let's see the Giants FO actually bite the bullet and say sayonara to JPP. They're flirting with disaster if they do so. The less risky option is to pay him a fair market contract and admit internally that he's slightly overpaid.
I agree as well, I don't want it to be so... but I think JPP is not a Giant next season.
Despite his great work, JPP was not the highest-ranked defensive end on the team. That belonged to Robert Ayers, who managed a fantastic score of +17.6. That score puts Ayers among the top five of all 4-3 defensive ends in the league (JPP was seventh). Almost all of his grade came on the strength of his pass rush, where his five sacks, 12 QB hits, and 29 hurries in only 249 pass rush snaps put his pass rush productivity at the very top of the NFL rankings. That's right, he was the most productive pass rusher in the league according to PFF, and it was pretty easy to see. He was downright dominant whenever he played. It was a damn shame he didn't play enough.
2) I don't think a move like this would necessarily be to replace JPP. Rather, it could serve the purpose of adding a young, athletic DE who can be had cheap, coming off of his best and only complete season.
3) No matter what, they may have a hard time replacing JPP's production, especially against the run. However, I think it may be a necessary evil to let him walk based on the money he is wanting. They may end up more with rotational players at DE than trying to replace a single player.
Somebody also called him Osi light in the run game. Yet he graded out top 10 in 2013 & 2014. That is severely underrating him IMO.
And as "great" as his 2014 numbers were against the run, he still wasn't taking away snaps from the unproductive Kiwi, which tells me the coaching staff wasn't very impressed with him (I don't buy the crap that TC sticks with his "guys" no matter what). Not to mention that Giants were what 30? against the run last year and JPP/Hankins are well above average in that department. That tells me the rest of the guys aren't getting the job done.
I might be misremembering, but I believe the Giants were able to sign him for such a bargain because his pass rush #s with Denver were mediocre at best.
What have you added to the conversation?
KWALL is one of the best posters on this site. Why dont you try to add something constructive to the thread.
1) what happened to the original KWALL handle?
2) can George Johnson be expected to hold the edge well vs. the run?
3)Does he seem to have the ability to get into the backfield fairly often?
4) Does he have several pass rush moves or is he a one trick pony?
Thanks. Sacks don't mean as much to me as a player disrupting a QB and making it a bitch to throw the ball.
1) what happened to the original KWALL handle?
2) can George Johnson be expected to hold the edge well vs. the run?
3)Does he seem to have the ability to get into the backfield fairly often?
4) Does he have several pass rush moves or is he a one trick pony?
Thanks. Sacks don't mean as much to me as a player disrupting a QB and making it a bitch to throw the ball.
did you forget that BBI was hacked recently? Quite a few people created new handles.
Brett is fat
Why is it OK for Notre Dame fans to pump up ND guys or Mich guys to push Mich guys?
Rutgers had 4 played on the Pats. All who contributed and one who is the top FA safety.
IMO I'd like to sign JPP as top tier DEs can't be let go unless the contract is insane and Johnson in case Moore doesn't develop.
I went to school w KWALL so adding that as a disclaimer its funny how every other school in the nation can have its fans plug their guys but Rutgers can't without some here jumping in.
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Why is it OK for Notre Dame fans to pump up ND guys or Mich guys to push Mich guys?
Rutgers had 4 played on the Pats. All who contributed and one who is the top FA safety.
IMO I'd like to sign JPP as top tier DEs can't be let go unless the contract is insane and Johnson in case Moore doesn't develop.
I went to school w KWALL so adding that as a disclaimer its funny how every other school in the nation can have its fans plug their guys but Rutgers can't without some here jumping in.
I personally have no problem with people pimping players from their preferred college(s) (do not forget some of the big Miami fans on this board). Just as when those people do it KWALL's assessment of Rutgers players cannot be taken at face value
KWALL has on here long enough and its not like it was a 3 line post.
1) what happened to the original KWALL handle?
2) can George Johnson be expected to hold the edge well vs. the run?
3)Does he seem to have the ability to get into the backfield fairly often?
4) Does he have several pass rush moves or is he a one trick pony?
Thanks. Sacks don't mean as much to me as a player disrupting a QB and making it a bitch to throw the ball.
From what I saw at Rutgers and the little I saw Detroit:
2. Average. Not in JPP's league
3. Yes
4. More than one, but the speed move is not blinding JJ Watt caliber.
The fact the player went to Rutgers likely means KWALL (and others) has likely seen him play a significant amount and also increases the chances that they actually followed the player's NFL career. That makes their opinion far more valuable then a lot of the other stuff posted after someone watches a 2 min highlight film.
Any time I see someone do this, I just chalk it up to an alum supporting their program. Obviously there's some naturally occurring bias in an alum's assessment.
did you forget that BBI was hacked recently? Quite a few people created new handles.
I did not know that anyone had to give up their old handle. I wonder why? Even if they forgot their email and password, you can always manually edit a database table entry.
Any time I see someone do this, I just chalk it up to an alum supporting their program. Obviously there's some naturally occurring bias in an alum's assessment.
In general I agree, especially with that hurricane fan, but kwall's a solid poster outside of his Rutgers homerism and even when pumping Rutgers players he gives well thought out posts.
About Johnson? He's a long athlete. He has a very good first step so he can get to the QB with a speed rush. He also can plant that outside foot and make a strong inside move.
He's strong and has plenty of size to be a full time 4-3 DE. He's over 6'4". Long arms too. Versatility is a big plus. He is a guy who could slide inside on passing downs.
I think cutting weight really helped him. Plus the motivation of knowing this was his last shot in DET.
He cut about 20lbs and got down to 265 when he joined DET. This is much better size for him then the 285 he was before DET. At 265 his speed and quickness works.
Ayers had a 15.2 rating. Justin Houston was 1st with a 15.7. I can't find the exact rating for Johnson, but he was the 24th ranked DE. Ansah was the highest rated on Detroit with a 12.1 rating so Johnson was lower then that. They also ranked Ayers 7th in run defense for a DE.
Ansah had 416 plays rushing the passer with 64 pressures. Which was the best for Detroit. Ayers had 235 plays rushing the passer and has 46 pressures. So he rushed the passer 181 less times and had only 18 less pressures. If Ansah was the best for Detroit which according to PFF he was then there is no way George Johnson was better then Ayers.
No at this point Moore probably isn't as good, but he is only a 2nd year player that rushed the passer less then Ayers and still had 5.5 sacks. Do we really want to sign a 4 year veteran with 6 career sacks while playing with the best DLine in football to take away valuable play time from a young player who could possibly turn into a very good player.
Yes Johnson might be better at this moment, but he is a 4th year player. Moore was only in his 2nd year. Who was a better player in there 2nd year in the NFL? I'm willing to bet it is Moore.
I think Johnson would be a great FA p/u, Ayers and Moore are solid along with accepting that JPP wasn't as good in his 2nd, 3rd and 4th (not factoring run grade) years! He had a whopping 3.5 sacks thru the 1st 11 games in 2014! He had 9 of 29 sacks recorded by the team in the final 5 games against offensive juggernauts like Jax (8), Ten (8), Wsh (7), Stl (2) and Philly (4)! JPP is not worth a JJ Watt size contract or $15M for (1) year. I do not see losing him hurting more than paying $15M! IMHO.