Stolen from Defenderdawg's thread, I think everybody should read this. If you don't think Kevin White is a worthy pick at 9 then I think this might change your mind. Pairing him with Beckham, possibly Cruz and Randle would really take this offense to a whole new level. And, stop with the "we need an OL" comments. Nobody is saying we don't but there are more ways to address the OL than the first pick in the draft.
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Don't know if I put him over Parker who I think is just scratching the surface. DeVante was a pretty sloppy route runner his first couple years but come off injury last year on a mission and was pretty much unstoppable in the 7 games he played. Also Think Parker will test better and have the superior measurables.
If this guy is really good and Cruz an unknown, then I'd say yes to the pick. (Realizing that we have have holes elsewhere.)
White is very appealing yet this team will remain a disaster if they keep ignoring the LOS.
White is very appealing yet this team will remain a disaster if they keep ignoring the LOS.
OL could easily be the pick but it's also likely we get a quality starter in FA.Have no fret, OL will not be ignored.
They are different players but what I like about White is his quickness and ability to get up to top speed instantly. Parker is definitely more of a long strider. However, White's ability to attack the ball at its highest point is second to none in this draft. Considering both are 6'3" I don't see their wingspans being much of an issue or a significant difference between the two.
White is very appealing yet this team will remain a disaster if they keep ignoring the LOS.
A lot of good the oLine did them in the playoffs -- it came down to playmakers - and the cowboys fell short -- they looked outmanned in the playoffs -- and the Giants exposed them in their last game
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and the Giants will have the old San Diego Chargers
White is very appealing yet this team will remain a disaster if they keep ignoring the LOS.
A lot of good the oLine did them in the playoffs -- it came down to playmakers - and the cowboys fell short -- they looked outmanned in the playoffs -- and the Giants exposed them in their last game
Oh please, just stop.
White is very appealing yet this team will remain a disaster if they keep ignoring the LOS.
Except, of course, there aren't ignoring the LOS. They'll sign a decent FA OL which along with the two #2s and and the #1 and the other decent FA OL they currently have will give them a perfectly good OL.
The only ignoring going on are the folks here who can't seem to figure out what's going on right in front of them.
That ruling on the Dez catch could have gone the other way....anything could have happened in Seattle...
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And I wonder how his wingspan and catch radius will compare.
They are different players but what I like about White is his quickness and ability to get up to top speed instantly. Parker is definitely more of a long strider. However, White's ability to attack the ball at its highest point is second to none in this draft. Considering both are 6'3" I don't see their wingspans being much of an issue or a significant difference between the two.
Robbie these two guys in my estimation are close enough that I really need to see their numbers out of the combine to form a final evaluation.
Odell for instance had some good production but the measurables : huge hands, 3 cone,40, wingspan , vert , that package was mighty impressive and more than compensated for height.
Parker from what I see has more impressive deep speed and though they have similar height he has the better wingspan/catch radius.
He cleaned up a couple things last year regarding his route running and looked as dominant over half a season as I've seen for a WR in a long while.
And just as important, we need backups for this OL, because we have none....
Yes, you can't ignore the fact that Cruz is coming back from an injury that may cause him to be PUP'd at the start of the season....will Randle get it, in a contract year? Will another year in this offense make Parker a better receiver for Eli?
Will the Giants get another RB that has some speed and be important in the passing game?
Will Donnell take that next step?
We have seen what Eli can do with a good OL....we have also seen what happens when he is rushed into making bad decisions.....if you don't have the time, makes no difference who your receivers are...
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and the Giants will have the old San Diego Chargers
White is very appealing yet this team will remain a disaster if they keep ignoring the LOS.
Except, of course, there aren't ignoring the LOS. They'll sign a decent FA OL which along with the two #2s and and the #1 and the other decent FA OL they currently have will give them a perfectly good OL.
The only ignoring going on are the folks here who can't seem to figure out what's going on right in front of them.
Your type of fan is priceless. From Guard to Guard they were atrocious in the running game and you have it figured out with an unnamed free agent while accusing others of not figuring out what's right in front of them. The bookends are real solid too. It's too naive and risky to think one FA guard is the missing piece and the rst will stay healthy and/or improve.
White is very appealing yet this team will remain a disaster if they keep ignoring the LOS.
You're just ignorant. And you are in every one of your "must draft OL in round 1 or else..." posts. It's extremely tiring, really.
They are not, and have not ignored the OL. You can argue that they've not made the best choices, but to insulate that they've "continued to ignore" the OL is flat out wrong and ignorant. They had some injuries and others haven't panned out. That is not ignoring anything. There are MANY questions surrounding this group of OL, yet you'd prefer that they throw a dart at the board and hope for the best. And you're the same guy that will destroy Reese if they reach for an OL and the guy turns out to be overmatched. He can't win, really. OBJ has turned out to be possibly the best player in last years draft, yet we still have to listen to the whining about Martin.
Just stop man. You simply have no clue what you're talking about. OL or bust! Yeah!
If they don't fix the oline and Dline, you can most certainly be assured of another top 10 pick next year.
Considering your inaccurate whine, i'd say the ignorant comment fits you perfectly
I've supported Reese as much as anybody so your whine about me ripping Reese is ignorant
I never mentioned Martin ever so congrats on another ignorant guess
I mentioned LOS so chalk up another miss on your end
Yeah, stick the ignorant comment skippy
White is very appealing yet this team will remain a disaster if they keep ignoring the LOS.
Stop being dramatic. Nobody has ignored anything except for you if you feel the line has been.
Root for Dallas if you're so impressed by their team building philosophy.
Both are needs but the value may not be there for a lineman at 9, unless they are certain he can play tackle. You can't risk the pick with a guy who may be a tackle some day,
In any case, there's other ways to address the LOS besides the first round of the draft. DTs have a high bust rate, the DEs likely here at 9 don't seem like Giants type players, and the I only OL I think we consider is Peat.
Ideally OL will be taken care of anyways in FA and after that then I think need is fairly balanced outside all positions on the team outside QB, CB and RB.
In any case, there's other ways to address the LOS besides the first round of the draft. DTs have a high bust rate, the DEs likely here at 9 don't seem like Giants type players, and the I only OL I think we consider is Peat.
I see that. The big blue douche is way off however.
Agreed about the bust factor regarding DL high and how to build the OL. My point is, watch Dallas add another OLman to really solidify that group. Meanwhile, the Giants still need to add to their DL and OL which Coughlin (basically said) is a problem. "How about running the ball and stopping the run" he said during his closing press conference.
Like I said, White is very appealing but if the team continues to ignore the LOS it's going to be a disaster. A few mediocre additions to the LOS might appease some yet that same LOS is #1` culprit as to why the Giants are picking 9th overall.
What's comical is seeing fools like you talk out your ass.
LOS=Line of scrimmage, but you can go on thinking you're the smartest of the bunch.
Now back to the originally reason why I quoted you, how have the Giants ignored the los?
Drafting Richburg, signed Schwartz, Jerry, and Waldon on the offensive side.
Drafted Bromley, signed Ayers on the defensive side and we have two younger guys who flashed in Moore and Wynn.
We may not have invested as much as some may have liked, but to say we've ignored it are the words of someone who has not been paying attention.
Ideally OL will be taken care of anyways in FA and after that then I think need is fairly balanced outside all positions on the team outside QB, CB and RB.
It could have been argued that Zach Martin was more of a need than OBJ was..OBJ was clearly BPA according to the Giants
And Dallas can go OL again for all I care. I'd rather than do that then pair Dez with another legit WR.
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with OL. Stick to fantasy ladies
What's comical is seeing fools like you talk out your ass.
LOS=Line of scrimmage, but you can go on thinking you're the smartest of the bunch.
Now back to the originally reason why I quoted you, how have the Giants ignored the los?
Drafting Richburg, signed Schwartz, Jerry, and Waldon on the offensive side.
Drafted Bromley, signed Ayers on the defensive side and we have two younger guys who flashed in Moore and Wynn.
We may not have invested as much as some may have liked, but to say we've ignored it are the words of someone who has not been paying attention.
Explain Coughlin's quote then. I know, a bunch of mediocre players is awesome.
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In comment 12137299 Giants2012 said:
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with OL. Stick to fantasy ladies
What's comical is seeing fools like you talk out your ass.
LOS=Line of scrimmage, but you can go on thinking you're the smartest of the bunch.
Now back to the originally reason why I quoted you, how have the Giants ignored the los?
Drafting Richburg, signed Schwartz, Jerry, and Waldon on the offensive side.
Drafted Bromley, signed Ayers on the defensive side and we have two younger guys who flashed in Moore and Wynn.
We may not have invested as much as some may have liked, but to say we've ignored it are the words of someone who has not been paying attention.
Explain Coughlin's quote then. I know, a bunch of mediocre players is awesome.
One thing at a time, I'm asking you to explain your own quote. Can you even do that?
How did we "ignore" the LOS?
The pass will be opening up the run. It works ok GB, NE, Denver, etc and it can work here too.
Ask yourself this question:
Will the OT available at No. 41 do as good a job of protecting Eli as the guy available at No. 9? If the answer to that question is, "Yes" then fine, pick a WR at No. 9.
Re: Dallas and its improved OL. Romo is their most important asset and he is no longer as mobile or healthy as when he was younger. Their decision to focus on the OL was a prudent one because it limits the hits on Romo.
That doesn't make much sense. Why was Beckham available at 12 then?
Ask yourself this question:
Will the OT available at No. 41 do as good a job of protecting Eli as the guy available at No. 9? If the answer to that question is, "Yes" then fine, pick a WR at No. 9.
Re: Dallas and its improved OL. Romo is their most important asset and he is no longer as mobile or healthy as when he was younger. Their decision to focus on the OL was a prudent one because it limits the hits on Romo.
Teams don't draft like that. You can't assume anyone will be there 30 picks later.
Romo still got pounded this year. Eli took less of a beating. No question we need to run better but the Eli is going to get kill nonsense has been going on every year since winning the SB.
Hey, our 2008 Giants team had an outstanding OL and dominated despite losing Strahan to retirement and Osi to IR. That Dallas team controlled the LOS offensively and made opponents one dimensional often which aided that mediocre DL.
This OL was ignored for years and some might applaud the warm bodies which couldn't beat out a finished Diehl and Snee. Selecting Pugh and Richburg in back to back years came really late and exactly why this bunch is a mess. Did the Giants completely ignore the OL? Well, technically "no" but those thinking the OL wasn't ignored a year removed from Booth while adding Schwartz & Jerry while Beatty could use a blocking TE are living on the moon. The running game stinks b/c from Guard to Guard they stunk and both OT's a bit suspect.
On the DL, there is a significant issue at the 3-GAP as Jenkins was terrible last year. They have no idea what's going on at the LDE position while some might applaud a lost Kiwi, a head case with Moore and luke warm Ayers isn't keeping any OC up at night. Meanwhile, JPP and his awesome December apparently made people forget where he was for practically 18 months.
The team is picking 9th b/c of the lack of focus on the LOS.
I'm sure they will. Coughin's quotes said it all IMO.
Thank you, that's all I needed.
I'm still taking Cooper over him, and not really thinking about it too much unless Cooper has discouraging medicals.
This frees the Giants up to take advantage of the two positions that have players that they can use that are worth the value, WR or DT. At 9 they should be looking at Shelton or White.
Secondly, it's pretty apparent that this years draft prospects are no where close to last years.
That makes no sense to me at all.
I'm still taking Cooper over him, and not really thinking about it too much unless Cooper has discouraging medicals.
Physical and competitive go a long way in my book, particularly when they're paired with the tools needed for the position. Whether he has outstanding measurables, or can be compared to Julio Jones is less important to me than what he might be able to do for the Giants. Heck, some day folks might be comparing WR prospects to Kevin White.
While Beckham is as physical and competitive as any WR, White brings added size to the Giants in a package that the Giants haven't had in WR in a long time. He's not just physical, he's very physical and tends to run well after the catch.
Typically a pair of alpha males like Beckham and White will each constantly be competing with each other to be the best. If the Giants can get both of these guys plus a healthy Cruz on the field together it should put enormous stress on defenses, and change the way they have to play the Giants.
That said, I wouldn't be upset if they took someone like Peat, or a DT, or any of the other promising impact prospects who will most certainly be ther at #9.
One negative with White I see is something Sy mentioned, he's not very fluid. Out of all the Top 3 WR prospects, he's definitely the most mechanical imo. That could be something that limits his potential in the pros, especially if he doesn't test out as well as expected.
Cooper seems like such a safe bet to be a good player. My only question with him is how good. He's not a jaw dropping physical specimen but he's so damn smooth and fluid. He's a guy whose 40yd/3Cone/SS I'm really interested in seeing. If he's a legit 4.4 guy then I would probably still rank him #1 out of this group. But if he's a high 4.5s guy I might dip him down to #3. He's super smooth but if his speed is lacking, I don't see him being a true dominant #1.
I think Parker is the sloppiest out of the 3 but has the highest potential. He's the only one who I think has a chance to enter that AJ/Julio/Dez tier. I love watching him play. He's everything the Giants want Reuben Randle to be.
I still feel like Green-Beckham is the most talented WR in this draft, and maybe a Top 5 overall talent. He's raw and soft, two big knocks to be fair. But holy crap the potential. I wouldn't touch him at #9 because of the off-field stuff but I'd jump all over him in the 2nd round. Get him in an NFL weight room and have him work with Eli and ODB in the film room, and you could have a freakish Plax/AJ Green hybrid.
People keep saying "Remember what Eli can do with an OL". But I'd counter that with "Remember what Eli did in '11 with 2 great WRs and a shit OL".
I still want to fix the OL, do not get me wrong. But I'd absolutely be ok with drafting a WR in round 1 if he's the BPA according to the board. Eli knows how to take advantage of his weapons. Giving him more weapons isn't a bad idea.
People keep saying "Remember what Eli can do with an OL". But I'd counter that with "Remember what Eli did in '11 with 2 great WRs and a shit OL".
I still want to fix the OL, do not get me wrong. But I'd absolutely be ok with drafting a WR in round 1 if he's the BPA according to the board. Eli knows how to take advantage of his weapons. Giving him more weapons isn't a bad idea.
How many Super Bowls did those two win w Payton.
Thanks but we don't need another WR at 9. Mainly because there's no way to know any of the WRs including Cooper will be that great. Just as we don't know if Peat or the other OL will be that great.
IMO WRs are becoming a dime a dozen. Antonio Brown was taken where? Edelman? Doesn;'t mean you pass up top tier talent but this need to become a Madden game and ignoring HUGE holes everywhere else on the roster is perplexing. As if no other players in the whole draft can be as important or be worth the 9th pick.
Not one of the WRs at the to-p are any more of a sure bet to be great as the OLs. Never mine the need for LB DE S etc.
Too many of you guys think a 1st round pick is the only way to fill a need. I agree that this team has a lot more urgent needs than WR. But WR isn't exactly worry-free for us. Next to our #1 we have a #3 in Randle and a #? in Cruz.
I'm not suggesting that we take WR no matter what. But if the WR is the BPA, you take him.
Right now Shelton (DT) and Collins (OG/OT) are my top two choices with our first round pick. Trust me, I know we have issues in the trenches that we need to solve. But WR is still a 1st round option for this team.
One negative with White I see is something Sy mentioned, he's not very fluid. Out of all the Top 3 WR prospects, he's definitely the most mechanical imo. That could be something that limits his potential in the pros, especially if he doesn't test out as well as expected.
Cooper seems like such a safe bet to be a good player. My only question with him is how good. He's not a jaw dropping physical specimen but he's so damn smooth and fluid. He's a guy whose 40yd/3Cone/SS I'm really interested in seeing. If he's a legit 4.4 guy then I would probably still rank him #1 out of this group. But if he's a high 4.5s guy I might dip him down to #3. He's super smooth but if his speed is lacking, I don't see him being a true dominant #1.
I think Parker is the sloppiest out of the 3 but has the highest potential. He's the only one who I think has a chance to enter that AJ/Julio/Dez tier. I love watching him play. He's everything the Giants want Reuben Randle to be.
I still feel like Green-Beckham is the most talented WR in this draft, and maybe a Top 5 overall talent. He's raw and soft, two big knocks to be fair. But holy crap the potential. I wouldn't touch him at #9 because of the off-field stuff but I'd jump all over him in the 2nd round. Get him in an NFL weight room and have him work with Eli and ODB in the film room, and you could have a freakish Plax/AJ Green hybrid.
Osi nice post. Pretty much agreed with all your evaluations.
I might be a touch higher on Cooper even without the measurables. He is such a natural route runner. Guys like that tend do do very well even if they don't have the best 40 times.
2. He falls to us and the guys we have graded ahead are gone.
Remember, our deepest need is not just the O-line. We have a serious problem on the D-line too. Are we forgetting that this Giants defense has been the worst we have seen in a half century? If there is a superstar D-lineman or LB sitting there do not be surprised if the Giants select him.
Now, if we take another DB with White still on the board then this place will go fucking crazy.
I like what I see from White.
Giants 607 pass attempts - 30 sacks
Dallas 476 pass attempts - 30 sacks
Romo got hit a lot more the Eli did and in a lot less attempts.
Yes, they are a good running unit. They were also a good running team before Martin was drafted and Frederick was drafted - they never stuck with it until this year due to the Romo injury
The overall notion of having to draft OL in the 1st to be successful is crap. Look at what the Pats just did with 2 UDFA G's and a 4th RD rookie C
How many Super Bowls did those two win w Payton.
Thanks but we don't need another WR at 9. Mainly because there's no way to know any of the WRs including Cooper will be that great. Just as we don't know if Peat or the other OL will be that great.
IMO WRs are becoming a dime a dozen. Antonio Brown was taken where? Edelman? Doesn;'t mean you pass up top tier talent but this need to become a Madden game and ignoring HUGE holes everywhere else on the roster is perplexing. As if no other players in the whole draft can be as important or be worth the 9th pick.
Not one of the WRs at the to-p are any more of a sure bet to be great as the OLs. Never mine the need for LB DE S etc.
There is so much stupid in this comment.
WR is now becoming a dime a dozen? Good thing you said that's your opinion, because it is certainly not based on any factual evidence whatsoever. I do love the fact how you threw in a total of 2 guys in there to back up your point though, and one them isn't even a top 10 WR.
Out of the top 50 WRs in receiving yards of 2014, 41 of them were drafted between rounds 1-3. Nine of them were drafted in the 4th round or were not drafted at all.
Out of the top 20 WRs in receiving yards of 2014, 18 of them were drafted between rounds 1-3. The other two were Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders.
How can you possibly claim that WRs are a dime a dozen when the premiere/quality draft picks are the ones that are producing at a high level in the league?
If this guy is really good and Cruz an unknown, then I'd say yes to the pick. (Realizing that we have have holes elsewhere.)
People homing in on OL for first round draft need to relax. It's almost certain we are going to get a guard in FA. We won with an average line and elite WR talent before, so I can see the logic.
Not sure what is out there that FO will pursue at LB or S, but we need an impact player at both of those spots more than at WR where we are decent.
I also don't want to see us become GB and have to let top-level wr talent walk (Cobb).
Remember that the FA market for WR is also pretty good. Would it change the opinion of the folks pushing hard for WR if we signed Cobb, for instance? I think that certainly should change it.
That's why it's really really premature to talk draft with any kind of specificity before FA ends.
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with OL. Stick to fantasy ladies
What's comical is seeing fools like you talk out your ass.
LOS=Line of scrimmage, but you can go on thinking you're the smartest of the bunch.
Now back to the originally reason why I quoted you, how have the Giants ignored the los?
Drafting Richburg, signed Schwartz, Jerry, and Waldon on the offensive side.
Drafted Bromley, signed Ayers on the defensive side and we have two younger guys who flashed in Moore and Wynn.
We may not have invested as much as some may have liked, but to say we've ignored it are the words of someone who has not been paying attention.
I think those posters are using the word "ignore" to exaggerate to drive a point home. I agree with you that it's too strong of a word, but I don't think you will argue that not being able to run or stop the run is a problem. And our OL's "fantastic" pass protection is more of a result of three-step drops than some massive upgrade in performance.
Moore has been somewhat of a disappointment so far, since he sucks against the run. Wynn flashed, but is still an unknown commodity. Bromley even more so. Ayers is a situational pass-rusher and nothing more. Brown and Jerry were only budget-signing plug ins. Walton was a cheap gamble.
Schwartz in FO and Richburg (maybe) in the draft were the only legitimate signings of last offseason that indicated the team prioritized controlling the LOS. Which was frankly shocking considering how much of a sieve the OL was.
Two years ago we drafted a G/T and a DT who are starting, one who is solid, and one who is a rock. Hopefully, the FO can strike some gold again, or at least silver. Maybe bauxite, lol. Anything but lead or pyrite...
We've seen how quick a rookie WR can step in and dominate at the NFL level. It'd be great to add another weapon there, and get immediate OL help via FA, so we can try and make another run during Eli's prime.