The Giants have used the Franchise tag twice in recent years, once for running back Brandon Jacobs in 2009 and once for punter Steve Weatherford in 2012.
I believe neither played the year on the tag. Both were signed long term before the season began. They will do the same with JPP or let him hit the market.
before training camp because that scenario would produce a deal that is less expensive for 2015 than the one-year cap number and potential FA deals from other teams in the long-term
If JPP wants to stay and is willing to compromise Â
then perhaps they'll get a deal struck. But, if he wants market dollars NYG is going to let him go. In this case, I'm curious to know if NYG has an idea as to what teams might be willing to trade for a Tagged JPP, as two #1 picks is unlikely, imo.
I really don't want the tag used on JPP. One year of cap killing play from JPP doesn't warm my heart.
Sign the guy to a long term deal that pays JPP in the upper echelon of DEs, but not THE highest paid DE and away we go. Fuck this one year cap hit of close to 20 million...no thanks.
If a contract gets done, you can protect yourself with some kind of injury clause..If not and his back flares again, you are on the hook for the 15+ mill with the entire cap hit non-amortized or full amount..
Work it out or let him go..
And you can use the money for a S, strengthening Â
if JPP is tagged, the Giants believe he is in the ball park. If he's not tagged, JPP wants way more than the Giants are willing to pay. So, in 2 weeks we will find out. I suspect JPP will want quite a bit more than $12M per which would be my highest offer for him.
Given his back history/recent injuries...I would think that JPP would be extremely motivated to get a long term deal done. If his back goes out this year and he's under the tag...he may never get a long term deal.
Most likely is that he is tagged and hits the open market under the franchise tag. What happens after that is anybody's guess...
-- He could play for a year under the tag.
-- He could sign a long term deal with the Giants.
-- He could be traded to a team willing to give him a long term deal.
At this point, I don't think we are in a position to guess which of those three is most likely because there is very little precedent to go by. I'm rooting for option #3 (especially if it means landing at least a 1st round pick in exchange).
The one thing I don't expect is that he is not tagged and leaves the team via free agency with no compensation for the Giants. I'm not saying it isn't a possible outcome, but it would mean the Giants have mismanaged a valuable asset and that would be a shame.
In that scenario, is there anyway to negotiate a trade with an interested team that wouldn't involve 2 1st rounders if tagged?
Yes. Here is an example from the past....
Quote:
In February 2008, the Chiefs placed the franchise tag on Allen, giving him a one-year, $8.8 million salary for 2008. On April 22, 2008, the Chiefs traded Allen to the Minnesota Vikings in exchange for a first-round pick and two third-round picks and swapped sixth-round picks in the 2008 NFL Draft. The Vikings then signed Allen to a six-year contract, which at the time was the richest contract for a defensive player in NFL history.
if he is tagged, like it has been suggested, then the Giants truly believe they can work out a deal.....
But it doesn't mean that he will......supposedly, he can't make inquiries as to what other teams will offer until the free agency period begins....I've said this before....it's possible he could pull a Welker, if some team makes a crazy offer.....then the Giants are on the books for 14-15M, unless they can make a trade.....or teams can just wait another year....there is no way they franchise him 2 years in a row...it will cost them even more.....
They can tag him, but he doesn't have to sign it.....he can go out there and come back and tell the Giants, this is what another team has offered.....then there are three options.....they match the offer......they continue with the tag, and eventually have to pay him the franchise tag money.....or they remove the tag and he is an UFA....
So, I think, the best bet for the Giants is to strike a deal without tagging him.....
if he is tagged, like it has been suggested, then the Giants truly believe they can work out a deal.....
But it doesn't mean that he will......supposedly, he can't make inquiries as to what other teams will offer until the free agency period begins....I've said this before....it's possible he could pull a Welker, if some team makes a crazy offer.....then the Giants are on the books for 14-15M, unless they can make a trade.....or teams can just wait another year....there is no way they franchise him 2 years in a row...it will cost them even more.....
They can tag him, but he doesn't have to sign it.....he can go out there and come back and tell the Giants, this is what another team has offered.....then there are three options.....they match the offer......they continue with the tag, and eventually have to pay him the franchise tag money.....or they remove the tag and he is an UFA....
So, I think, the best bet for the Giants is to strike a deal without tagging him.....
if I'm JPP's agent I say the scheme sucked, was too geared to stopping the run. i say this player puts up huge stats in an attacking front. can play 34 OLB or 43 DE, either side.
i'm asking for the moon initially - citing his 2011 play.
contrast that w/the giants, their "max contract" for non-QBs is revealed in recent offers/signings:
Antrel Rolle: 5 years, $37M, $15M guaranteed
Chris Snee: 6 years, $42.25M, $17M guaranteed
Victor Cruz: 6 years, $46M, $15.6M guaranteed
Steve Smith: 5 years, $35M, $15M guaranteed
Chris Canty: 6 years, $42M, $17.25M guaranteed
DRC: 5 years, $35M, $14M guaranteed
McKenzie: 7 years, $38M, $12.5M guaranteed (10 years ago)
Beatty: 5 years, $37.5M, $19M guaranteed
------------
Almost OCD-like similar deals/guarantees. JPP is going to scoff at that. I see a tough negotiation with JPP testing the market.
----------------
to contrast:
average framework for top 43DE:
6 years, $70M, $35M guaranteed
-----------------
That is a lot more (almost double) than we've ever spent.
if he is tagged, like it has been suggested, then the Giants truly believe they can work out a deal.
This is not true. The Giants could tag him knowing full well that they will not be able to work out a long term deal with him. In fact, I think it is likely that they tag him knowing that they aren't going to be able to work out a deal. This ensures that the worst possible result (JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return) won't happen. That would be a colossal waste and an unnecessary one at that.
Of the contracts you list only DRC is recent enough to take any wisdom from from. Total dollars goes up with time so whether they have spent that much before isn't relevant. Further, few of those signings were for one of the top players at their position. The Rolle deal, however, is a top deal for a top player. A better example is what the Giants did with the Strahan and Eli deals. They made them the top paid players at their positions. If they think JPP is a top player they'll spend the money. What they think of him is the question not if they'll spend the money if they do.
if he is tagged, like it has been suggested, then the Giants truly believe they can work out a deal.
This is not true. The Giants could tag him knowing full well that they will not be able to work out a long term deal with him. In fact, I think it is likely that they tag him knowing that they aren't going to be able to work out a deal. This ensures that the worst possible result (JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return) won't happen. That would be a colossal waste and an unnecessary one at that.
The trouble with this line of thinking is if they keep him this year on a tag then they almost certainly lose him the next year. Thus, you haven't really solved the "JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return" problem you've only delayed and ensured it.
''...There are two types of franchise tags — exclusive and non-exclusive. The exclusive tag means the player can only negotiate with his own team and must receive a one-year salary based on which is greater: The average of what the five highest-paid players at his position are being paid this season or 120 percent of their own salary cap number from the previous year.
Most players are designated with the non-exclusive tag. Any team that wants to sign a non-exclusive franchise player from another team must give up two first-round draft picks as compensation. The player’s team then has a seven-day window in order to match the offer. If the player remains on his current team, he receives a guaranteed salary based on the five-year average cap percentage of the franchise tag for his position, or receives the same 120 percent raise as the exclusive franchise player....''
Almost OCD-like similar deals/guarantees. JPP is going to scoff at that. I see a tough negotiation with JPP testing the market.
----------------
to contrast:
average framework for top 43DE:
6 years, $70M, $35M guaranteed
-----------------
That is a lot more (almost double) than we've ever spent.
Where are you getting those numbers? OverTheCap has one 43 DE signing for more than $25M guaranteed (Charles Johnson with $32M). The average guaranteed money for the top 5 (highest paid) 43DE: $24.2M.
If you exclude the outlier (Johnson) and look at the average guaranteed for the top 10 43DEs: $19.3M
Only two 34DEs have topped even $17M in guaranteed money: Watt ($20.9M) and Ngata ($27.1M)
Only two 43DTs have topped $15M in guaranteed money: Suh ($23.25) and Dareus ($20.4M)
And for 34DTs, the largest guaranteed portion is $18M (Ahtyba Rubin).
if he is tagged, like it has been suggested, then the Giants truly believe they can work out a deal.
This is not true. The Giants could tag him knowing full well that they will not be able to work out a long term deal with him. In fact, I think it is likely that they tag him knowing that they aren't going to be able to work out a deal. This ensures that the worst possible result (JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return) won't happen. That would be a colossal waste and an unnecessary one at that.
The trouble with this line of thinking is if they keep him this year on a tag then they almost certainly lose him the next year. Thus, you haven't really solved the "JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return" problem you've only delayed and ensured it.
Not entirely true. Besides the fact that it's possible that the Giants tag and trade him, if he does play for a year under the tag it is another year in which the Giants can evaluate his play, which has been inconsistent. Will it be another year of nagging injuries or back problems like 2013? Will it be a dominant year like 2011? Will it be a mix like 2014?
Even if the Giants have JPP in their long term plans, it might make sense to bite the bullet on one year at $15M before committing three times that amount in guaranteed money on a long term deal.
would I trade JPP for two first round picks (see NY Post article)?
damn right I would. dont forget, the picks are younger, so you are getting more years, 2x lowers the risk of finding 1...and we have one now...so thats peachy.
So, someone is going to give us draft choices for the privilege of signing JPP to a monster deal even though he's been to inconsistent, according to you, for the Giants to give him that deal. Sure they are. And JPP is going to sign with the Giants after they kept him from getting that deal with the franchise tag. Sure he is. Well, you've certainly got all this figured out.
put some kind of tag on him. Franchise is the safest way. He may not be worth the number the franchise tag comes out to, but he is to the Giants, as they don't have squat if they let him go, and there aint a player out there as good as him in FA to replace him. I am for releasing Kiwi, there is a player who's skills could be replaced in FA. I think the Giants need to put the tag on JPP, and NOT to work out a deal, just to have him for this season while they draft Dante Fowler in the first round. JPP will not be returning to his 2011 form, he will most likely be what he was last season, a good DE against the run, and a respectable pass rusher against sub-par O-Lines. Gotta keep him one more season. If they can Transition Tag him all the better, but they need him. One way or another the Giants have to do what they have to do to keep him, without giving him a long term deal. An expensive one year rental.
Of the contracts you list only DRC is recent enough to take any wisdom from from. Total dollars goes up with time so whether they have spent that much before isn't relevant. Further, few of those signings were for one of the top players at their position. The Rolle deal, however, is a top deal for a top player. A better example is what the Giants did with the Strahan and Eli deals. They made them the top paid players at their positions. If they think JPP is a top player they'll spend the money. What they think of him is the question not if they'll spend the money if they do.
what was the strahan extension? i didnt have the numbers.
is how Reese tends to structure/slot contracts now, especially with the in-house talent he feels needs to compromise based on performance that didn't warrant elite dollars. He spends more on UFAs he fills are strong value and fill urgent holes (and his choices aren't great, imo).
Eli is the franchise QB, a different standard applies. Strahan was the pre-eminent talent, an elite DE headed to the HOF. I don't suspect they view JPP similarly as those two.
I bet they get creative with the deal... Something like 5 Years 62M with only 30M guaranteed.... And the rest is incentive laden with rewards for games played, sacks, etc... To keep him motivated.
is how Reese tends to structure/slot contracts now, especially with the in-house talent he feels needs to compromise based on performance that didn't warrant elite dollars. He spends more on UFAs he fills are strong value and fill urgent holes (and his choices aren't great, imo).
Eli is the franchise QB, a different standard applies. Strahan was the pre-eminent talent, an elite DE headed to the HOF. I don't suspect they view JPP similarly as those two.
Imo.
Except junc's premise that top 43DEs get "$35M guaranteed" is bogus. Top DL get $20-25M with Charles Johnson being the outlier (at $32M) and Suh likely getting >$25M.
Considering JPP is arguably better than anyone on that list and plays a premier position that this Giants coaching staff/front office highly values, it's easy to see how a deal with $20-25M or even $25-30M guaranteed gets done. JPP >> Beatty and they were willing to give the latter almost $20M guaranteed.
I think junc's #'s for JPP are too high, especially the guaranteed $ Â
1. Fairly recent contract
2. Similar nagging injury issues
3. Premium position
4. Same front office
And they showed they were willing to pay him the market rate (IIRC, Beatty's deal was among the top 6-8 LT contracts at the time).
So what does that mean for JPP? Let's take a look at the best player at his position who just happened to sign a 6 year extension this past season:
Total Value (new money): $100M
Guaranteed: ~$21M
In reality, if you look at Watt's deal, it's a 4 year extension (2015-2018) with 3 one year options added at the end when they can cut Watt with no cap penalty. Yet these final 3 seasons contain $46M of his $100M in total value. These years do a couple things: 1) inflate the value of the deal so Watt and his agent can claim they got $100M and 2) if the Texans need the cap room in the next few seasons, they have a few extra years over which to spread the money.
With that in mind, JPP could sign a 7 year deal worth $90M with $25M guaranteed (~$13M/year) which would have 0 pro-rated money in the last 2 years and likely $30+ in base salaries those years. So in essence, it would be a 5 yr deal worth $60M ($25M guaranteed).
your numbers wrong. check the r.quinn contract and j.peppers contract w/bears, both $41M+ guaranteed. chris long got almost 37. those are the #s the top 43 DE's get,and if u dont think JPP's agent is going to start at the top, your crazy
“That is certainly one of our options, but we really haven’t fully discussed that yet,” Mara said, via Dan Graziano of ESPN. “I have no idea what his agent is going to do. Actually, I do have a pretty good idea of what his agent is going to be asking for. And whether we want to do that or franchise him is something we will have to fully discuss. . . .
“We would certainly like him back, but it would have to be at the right price, something that makes sense for us. He had a great finish to the season and showed us the type of player that he can be. I would be very surprised if he was not a Giant next year.”
With many of the other guys Giants have let go of over the years including Tuck and LinJo, you rarely heard comments with any kind of conviction. They were all lukewarm comments at best often times with hints they might be moving on.
You aren't hearing any of these type of comments about Rolle either.
Based on what Mara said, I'd be very suprised if they don't offer JPP a sizeable and fair contract. Whether its enough for him and his agent remains to be seen but I think the tag will be the other alternative.
your numbers wrong. check the r.quinn contract and j.peppers contract w/bears, both $41M+ guaranteed. chris long got almost 37. those are the #s the top 43 DE's get,and if u dont think JPP's agent is going to start at the top, your crazy
According to OTC, Quinn only received $15.6M guaranteed. Spotrac has him as $41M guaranteed but if you read the fine print, his base salaries for 2015-2017 aren't guaranteed unless he's on the roster. They're essentially huge "roster bonuses". But they aren't guaranteed in the true sense of the word because the Rams can cut Quinn and not be on the hook for that money (in both cap and real terms).
Peppers looks like he may have had $41M guaranteed (spotrac is sketchy), but part of it was definitely guaranteed base salaries which look like they were then restructured. And that deal was 5 years ago. Considering the dead money hit the Bears took when they cut him, it's likely a deterrent against deals like that (ditto the Mario Williams deal).
The point remains (as those contracts show) you can massage the numbers via accounting tricks (guaranteed for injury, roster bonuses, etc) to make the initial numbers look bigger than they are. For example, Giants can give JPP $1M roster bonus each year of the deal. If it's a 6 year deal, that bumps the "guaranteed" money up by $6M, but JPP only sees it if he remains on the team each year. And if he's playing at a high level, the Giants will gladly pay him the extra $1M.
the Rams could cut him after the 2015 season and have <$3M in dead money. If JPP's deal is anything like Quinn's, the Giants front office wins big time.
wouldn't tag him. $15M is too much, and it all goes against this year's cap. They'll get extra room of course by extending Eli, but it's still a lot of money against the cap. He also has an injury history.
Of course, if you don't do it, you risk him going elsewhere for nothing, except maybe a comp pick in 2016, depending on what FA we sign this year. Tagging him also gives you another year to develop new and existing players at his position.
I think the edge goes to the Giants doing it, but it's close.
not real sure how I feel about handing JPP all those big bucks, I know he's very talented but also inconsistent and IMO he still has to show he can do it every game...
The Post is saying that the Giants are gonna give him the Â
Bites and we get two #1's. Lets say a team with a QB and playoff talent is a DL short of being a true SB contender. Lets say they sign JPP and we don't match.
And BAM, the QB goes down opening day and the team unravels for a 6-10 record.
That is a dream come true.
I'm "50 / 50" on signing JPP cause I sort of see the potential talent but not the consistency needed to make the investment he'll likely get on the outside market.
The question is will a team give up two #1's? Only if they feel JPP puts them over the top and well I just don't see any team being that crazy. Too bad Al Davis has passed....
But I'd really hate to lose JPP. For all this talk of inconsistency exactly how many defensive linemen were more "consistent" than JPP over the last 4-5 seasons?
Every player carries risk. JPP's back is one... But they all carry risk. Look at Cruz....i was never more confident in a player's health fortunes than Cruz. He just struck me as a guy that would never get hurt, nope he gets hurt too. They all could get hurt. No one knows. JPP could play 5 straight seasons injury free or he could be done like that. For all this talk of injury risk JPP sure doesn't miss that much time. How many games has this dude missed since being drafted? 7-8 tops? Not bad.
I still say unless you clearly know that there's two players out there you can get that would better JPP's efforts and cost the same, you can't let this guy walk. He's too important. When was the last time we headed into camp with no established DE star talent? JPP needs to stay a giant but it won't be easy.
A sign of weakness. To me the GM's biggest sin is to preside over a losing team, especially a very losing team that has made the playoffs once in seven seasons.
If Reese lets JPP and Rolle leave, two more ring holders, as I fear he will based on his record, the defense, already one of the worst in the league, will have to find in the offseason two defensive ends instead of one, and two safeties instead of one.
Is this likely to happen. No. The Giants should have more cap space this offseason than in many years. So overpay if necessary to keep a player you can't replace. Maybe you can get the most overpaid player to give back a couple of million for the sake of the team. His family should be set for life against starvation by now.
I believe neither played the year on the tag. Both were signed long term before the season began. They will do the same with JPP or let him hit the market.
Sign the guy to a long term deal that pays JPP in the upper echelon of DEs, but not THE highest paid DE and away we go. Fuck this one year cap hit of close to 20 million...no thanks.
Work it out or let him go..
We can still be contenders without JPP..
-- He could play for a year under the tag.
-- He could sign a long term deal with the Giants.
-- He could be traded to a team willing to give him a long term deal.
At this point, I don't think we are in a position to guess which of those three is most likely because there is very little precedent to go by. I'm rooting for option #3 (especially if it means landing at least a 1st round pick in exchange).
The one thing I don't expect is that he is not tagged and leaves the team via free agency with no compensation for the Giants. I'm not saying it isn't a possible outcome, but it would mean the Giants have mismanaged a valuable asset and that would be a shame.
But it doesn't mean that he will......supposedly, he can't make inquiries as to what other teams will offer until the free agency period begins....I've said this before....it's possible he could pull a Welker, if some team makes a crazy offer.....then the Giants are on the books for 14-15M, unless they can make a trade.....or teams can just wait another year....there is no way they franchise him 2 years in a row...it will cost them even more.....
They can tag him, but he doesn't have to sign it.....he can go out there and come back and tell the Giants, this is what another team has offered.....then there are three options.....they match the offer......they continue with the tag, and eventually have to pay him the franchise tag money.....or they remove the tag and he is an UFA....
So, I think, the best bet for the Giants is to strike a deal without tagging him.....
But it doesn't mean that he will......supposedly, he can't make inquiries as to what other teams will offer until the free agency period begins....I've said this before....it's possible he could pull a Welker, if some team makes a crazy offer.....then the Giants are on the books for 14-15M, unless they can make a trade.....or teams can just wait another year....there is no way they franchise him 2 years in a row...it will cost them even more.....
They can tag him, but he doesn't have to sign it.....he can go out there and come back and tell the Giants, this is what another team has offered.....then there are three options.....they match the offer......they continue with the tag, and eventually have to pay him the franchise tag money.....or they remove the tag and he is an UFA....
So, I think, the best bet for the Giants is to strike a deal without tagging him.....
i'm asking for the moon initially - citing his 2011 play.
contrast that w/the giants, their "max contract" for non-QBs is revealed in recent offers/signings:
Antrel Rolle: 5 years, $37M, $15M guaranteed
Chris Snee: 6 years, $42.25M, $17M guaranteed
Victor Cruz: 6 years, $46M, $15.6M guaranteed
Steve Smith: 5 years, $35M, $15M guaranteed
Chris Canty: 6 years, $42M, $17.25M guaranteed
DRC: 5 years, $35M, $14M guaranteed
McKenzie: 7 years, $38M, $12.5M guaranteed (10 years ago)
Beatty: 5 years, $37.5M, $19M guaranteed
------------
Almost OCD-like similar deals/guarantees. JPP is going to scoff at that. I see a tough negotiation with JPP testing the market.
----------------
to contrast:
average framework for top 43DE:
6 years, $70M, $35M guaranteed
-----------------
That is a lot more (almost double) than we've ever spent.
Quote:
if he is tagged, like it has been suggested, then the Giants truly believe they can work out a deal.
This is not true. The Giants could tag him knowing full well that they will not be able to work out a long term deal with him. In fact, I think it is likely that they tag him knowing that they aren't going to be able to work out a deal. This ensures that the worst possible result (JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return) won't happen. That would be a colossal waste and an unnecessary one at that.
The trouble with this line of thinking is if they keep him this year on a tag then they almost certainly lose him the next year. Thus, you haven't really solved the "JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return" problem you've only delayed and ensured it.
''...There are two types of franchise tags — exclusive and non-exclusive. The exclusive tag means the player can only negotiate with his own team and must receive a one-year salary based on which is greater: The average of what the five highest-paid players at his position are being paid this season or 120 percent of their own salary cap number from the previous year.
Most players are designated with the non-exclusive tag. Any team that wants to sign a non-exclusive franchise player from another team must give up two first-round draft picks as compensation. The player’s team then has a seven-day window in order to match the offer. If the player remains on his current team, he receives a guaranteed salary based on the five-year average cap percentage of the franchise tag for his position, or receives the same 120 percent raise as the exclusive franchise player....''
------------
Almost OCD-like similar deals/guarantees. JPP is going to scoff at that. I see a tough negotiation with JPP testing the market.
----------------
to contrast:
average framework for top 43DE:
6 years, $70M, $35M guaranteed
-----------------
That is a lot more (almost double) than we've ever spent.
Where are you getting those numbers? OverTheCap has one 43 DE signing for more than $25M guaranteed (Charles Johnson with $32M). The average guaranteed money for the top 5 (highest paid) 43DE: $24.2M.
If you exclude the outlier (Johnson) and look at the average guaranteed for the top 10 43DEs: $19.3M
Only two 34DEs have topped even $17M in guaranteed money: Watt ($20.9M) and Ngata ($27.1M)
Only two 43DTs have topped $15M in guaranteed money: Suh ($23.25) and Dareus ($20.4M)
And for 34DTs, the largest guaranteed portion is $18M (Ahtyba Rubin).
43DEs - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 12138397 Doomster said:
Quote:
if he is tagged, like it has been suggested, then the Giants truly believe they can work out a deal.
This is not true. The Giants could tag him knowing full well that they will not be able to work out a long term deal with him. In fact, I think it is likely that they tag him knowing that they aren't going to be able to work out a deal. This ensures that the worst possible result (JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return) won't happen. That would be a colossal waste and an unnecessary one at that.
The trouble with this line of thinking is if they keep him this year on a tag then they almost certainly lose him the next year. Thus, you haven't really solved the "JPP leaving and the Giants getting nothing in return" problem you've only delayed and ensured it.
Even if the Giants have JPP in their long term plans, it might make sense to bite the bullet on one year at $15M before committing three times that amount in guaranteed money on a long term deal.
damn right I would. dont forget, the picks are younger, so you are getting more years, 2x lowers the risk of finding 1...and we have one now...so thats peachy.
what was the strahan extension? i didnt have the numbers.
Eli is the franchise QB, a different standard applies. Strahan was the pre-eminent talent, an elite DE headed to the HOF. I don't suspect they view JPP similarly as those two.
Imo.
Eli is the franchise QB, a different standard applies. Strahan was the pre-eminent talent, an elite DE headed to the HOF. I don't suspect they view JPP similarly as those two.
Imo.
Except junc's premise that top 43DEs get "$35M guaranteed" is bogus. Top DL get $20-25M with Charles Johnson being the outlier (at $32M) and Suh likely getting >$25M.
Considering JPP is arguably better than anyone on that list and plays a premier position that this Giants coaching staff/front office highly values, it's easy to see how a deal with $20-25M or even $25-30M guaranteed gets done. JPP >> Beatty and they were willing to give the latter almost $20M guaranteed.
2. Similar nagging injury issues
3. Premium position
4. Same front office
And they showed they were willing to pay him the market rate (IIRC, Beatty's deal was among the top 6-8 LT contracts at the time).
So what does that mean for JPP? Let's take a look at the best player at his position who just happened to sign a 6 year extension this past season:
Total Value (new money): $100M
Guaranteed: ~$21M
In reality, if you look at Watt's deal, it's a 4 year extension (2015-2018) with 3 one year options added at the end when they can cut Watt with no cap penalty. Yet these final 3 seasons contain $46M of his $100M in total value. These years do a couple things: 1) inflate the value of the deal so Watt and his agent can claim they got $100M and 2) if the Texans need the cap room in the next few seasons, they have a few extra years over which to spread the money.
With that in mind, JPP could sign a 7 year deal worth $90M with $25M guaranteed (~$13M/year) which would have 0 pro-rated money in the last 2 years and likely $30+ in base salaries those years. So in essence, it would be a 5 yr deal worth $60M ($25M guaranteed).
“That is certainly one of our options, but we really haven’t fully discussed that yet,” Mara said, via Dan Graziano of ESPN. “I have no idea what his agent is going to do. Actually, I do have a pretty good idea of what his agent is going to be asking for. And whether we want to do that or franchise him is something we will have to fully discuss. . . .
“We would certainly like him back, but it would have to be at the right price, something that makes sense for us. He had a great finish to the season and showed us the type of player that he can be. I would be very surprised if he was not a Giant next year.”
With many of the other guys Giants have let go of over the years including Tuck and LinJo, you rarely heard comments with any kind of conviction. They were all lukewarm comments at best often times with hints they might be moving on.
You aren't hearing any of these type of comments about Rolle either.
Based on what Mara said, I'd be very suprised if they don't offer JPP a sizeable and fair contract. Whether its enough for him and his agent remains to be seen but I think the tag will be the other alternative.
According to OTC, Quinn only received $15.6M guaranteed. Spotrac has him as $41M guaranteed but if you read the fine print, his base salaries for 2015-2017 aren't guaranteed unless he's on the roster. They're essentially huge "roster bonuses". But they aren't guaranteed in the true sense of the word because the Rams can cut Quinn and not be on the hook for that money (in both cap and real terms).
Peppers looks like he may have had $41M guaranteed (spotrac is sketchy), but part of it was definitely guaranteed base salaries which look like they were then restructured. And that deal was 5 years ago. Considering the dead money hit the Bears took when they cut him, it's likely a deterrent against deals like that (ditto the Mario Williams deal).
The point remains (as those contracts show) you can massage the numbers via accounting tricks (guaranteed for injury, roster bonuses, etc) to make the initial numbers look bigger than they are. For example, Giants can give JPP $1M roster bonus each year of the deal. If it's a 6 year deal, that bumps the "guaranteed" money up by $6M, but JPP only sees it if he remains on the team each year. And if he's playing at a high level, the Giants will gladly pay him the extra $1M.
Of course, if you don't do it, you risk him going elsewhere for nothing, except maybe a comp pick in 2016, depending on what FA we sign this year. Tagging him also gives you another year to develop new and existing players at his position.
I think the edge goes to the Giants doing it, but it's close.
Link - ( New Window )
And BAM, the QB goes down opening day and the team unravels for a 6-10 record.
That is a dream come true.
I'm "50 / 50" on signing JPP cause I sort of see the potential talent but not the consistency needed to make the investment he'll likely get on the outside market.
The question is will a team give up two #1's? Only if they feel JPP puts them over the top and well I just don't see any team being that crazy. Too bad Al Davis has passed....
Every player carries risk. JPP's back is one... But they all carry risk. Look at Cruz....i was never more confident in a player's health fortunes than Cruz. He just struck me as a guy that would never get hurt, nope he gets hurt too. They all could get hurt. No one knows. JPP could play 5 straight seasons injury free or he could be done like that. For all this talk of injury risk JPP sure doesn't miss that much time. How many games has this dude missed since being drafted? 7-8 tops? Not bad.
I still say unless you clearly know that there's two players out there you can get that would better JPP's efforts and cost the same, you can't let this guy walk. He's too important. When was the last time we headed into camp with no established DE star talent? JPP needs to stay a giant but it won't be easy.
He wants a long term deal with guaranteed money too..
If Reese lets JPP and Rolle leave, two more ring holders, as I fear he will based on his record, the defense, already one of the worst in the league, will have to find in the offseason two defensive ends instead of one, and two safeties instead of one.
Is this likely to happen. No. The Giants should have more cap space this offseason than in many years. So overpay if necessary to keep a player you can't replace. Maybe you can get the most overpaid player to give back a couple of million for the sake of the team. His family should be set for life against starvation by now.