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| The Giants are negotiating to keep Jason Pierre-Paul by placing the non-exclusive franchise tag on him that would force any salivating suitor to surrender a pair of first-round picks should the Giants decide not to match the offer during the seven-day window, The Post has learned |
If they follow through with the Tag, they must get an extension done and get the cap hit way down. Then, get Prince done.
The amount they are hamstrung is overplayed. They have to keep ~$8M in cap space to sign this years rookies anyway, so if they expect to reach a long term deal with JPP, they could just plan on using the cap savings from JPP's eventual deal to pay the rookie class.
They also typically go into the season with ~$5M or so in space, so they can just operate during the offseason without this safety cushion knowing full well that they'll free up room when they extend JPP.
There's some risk involved if they don't reach a long term agreement, but I'm sure they have a good idea on whether or not a deal will be reached.
Agreed. Slapping the tag on a player means the money counts against your cap IIRC, although they could free up some money be extending Eli, which is what I assume they will do. They can also release some players, but the tag means they are committed for about $14.6M I think to JPP, until they either sign him to an extension or remove it.
I assume they could accept less than two first round picks in compensation if they wanted to trade him.
If they follow through with the Tag, they must get an extension done and get the cap hit way down. Then, get Prince done.
With JPP, Prince, and Eli they have 3 guys that are likely to get substantial deals (though Prince much less so). It'll be interesting to see if they try and stagger the big cap hits. For example, maybe JPP starts off with a cap hit in 2015 of $12-13M while Eli's is <$10M. Then 2016, JPP would have a lower base (and cap hit) while Eli's is higher.
Though as of now, they could probably structure them both (and Prince's) to have significant roster bonuses for 2016 when they have a ton of cap space and then keep the cap hits the other years a little lower.
If I'm JPP, I take the tag and 15 mil of guaranteed money, and next year when I sign a long term contract, I get another 20-40 million guaranteed. There's only 2 reasons to take the money now: lack of confidence in my ability (which, if this a consideration, should automatically disqualify any offer) making me think it's now or never to get the richest deal, or possibility of injury.
Any way you slice it, JPP is smiling all the way to the bank. Personally, I have my doubts that JPP is anywhere near Strahan status, and that's what his next contract is going to say he's worth.
If you stagger his cap hit with JPP's (remember, you're only going to get one year of cheap with either) simply let Eli play out his contract, then when JPP's goes into the stratosphere, the first year of Eli's new contract is cheap, and we can avoid being in cap hell next offseason.
Second, yes the "average annual value" of Eli's next deal will be higher than his current AAV. But restructuring (really extending) him now is not going to hurt this years cap. It's likely to do the exact opposite and lower Eli's 2015 cap number. Which means they can frontload a deal for JPP to help get it done. And signing a player to an extension before they hit FA almost always saves a few million (again the player is trading a little money for long term security).
Even if they let Eli play out his contract that only buys them a year and doesn't provide any additional flexibility in terms of contract structure. It also increases the risk of Eli leaving since the only way to guarantee some team doesn't blow him away with an offer would be to apply the exclusive franchise tag. And that would almost ensure Eli gets a contract with a higher AAV than the one he is likely to sign this offseason.
Andy - How much will that generate in cap space -- another 5 $Mil? - that leaves them $9 Million afterwards - $5 Million of that for the Draft signees - the Giants have to sign quite a few FAs to stabilize the many needs they have, and relatively very little $ to do it with - you can't make a big signing without much money - or without taking down valuable cap space in the future -which is already needed for Eli, Prince and JPP
I'm not complaining -- I think the Giants had to tag JPP - I have publicly stated that immediately after the season ended and the reasons why - but it is a consequence that flows from that
There are always ways to fangle cap numbers to create flexibility if teams need it (for example the Saints signed Jarius Byrd last year even though they were projected to be way over the cap for this year--and they still are 25+ million over the cap for 2015).
The important thing is the Giants aren't going to find anyone as good as JPP is on the free agent market or in the draft for the 2015 season. It's a move that had to be done. JPP might have feasted his sack numbers against some bad teams, but was also making impact plays in the run game against top guys too.
If they get an extension done, they can finagle the cap hit and get it much lower upfront.
If they're stuck paying him the Tag tender, then it's a non-negotiable ~$15M cap hit for one season for a team with a ton of roster holes.
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Not necessarily - they're going to have more$$ - after kiwi and Walton are cut, they can still restructure Eli, weatheford, and Beason will likely take a pay cut. This will give them quite a bit of flexibility.
Andy - How much will that generate in cap space -- another 5 $Mil? - that leaves them $9 Million afterwards - $5 Million of that for the Draft signees - the Giants have to sign quite a few FAs to stabilize the many needs they have, and relatively very little $ to do it with - you can't make a big signing without much money - or without taking down valuable cap space in the future -which is already needed for Eli, Prince and JPP
I'm not complaining -- I think the Giants had to tag JPP - I have publicly stated that immediately after the season ended and the reasons why - but it is a consequence that flows from that
Walton/Kiwi cuts would save a combined $7.8M. A Beason cut would save another $2.8M so a restructure would save probably ~$1.5-2M. I doubt they touch Weatherfords deal, but a restructure there could also free another $1M.
If they wanted even more money after those moves, they could look at restructuring Cruz and/or Beatty. Or extending Prince. A Prince extension similar to the deal DRC got last year (which I think is high for Prince) would save another ~$3M in cap room.
They also are projected to have the 4th highest cap space of any team next year. Which will give them more ability to be aggressive this year if need be by structuring deals with bigger hits a year from now.
Bottomline there is going to be some maneuverability even if JPP plays with the tag.
Any time cleveland calls, you at least pick up the phone and listen.
Probably. Shelton, Collins (or Scherff), and Fowler would go a long way to restocking the trenches!
And use the $$$ to sign at least 1 safety and a legit LB.
Are we talking about 5 years, $60 million; and then there's the guaranteed money. What's reasonable? $20-$25 million guaranteed?
I don't know - anybody have any insight?
They also are projected to have the 4th highest cap space of any team next year. Which will give them more ability to be aggressive this year if need be by structuring deals with bigger hits a year from now.
Bottomline there is going to be some maneuverability even if JPP plays with the tag.
Thanks. That makes sense.
They also are projected to have the 4th highest cap space of any team next year. Which will give them more ability to be aggressive this year if need be by structuring deals with bigger hits a year from now.
Bottomline there is going to be some maneuverability even if JPP plays with the tag.
That's a bit misleading. The second the extend Eli they drop to 10-15th in space. Extend JPP and Prince on top of that and they're probably bottom 10 (granted other teams will have their 2016 cap space evaporate as they extend players too).
Are we talking about 5 years, $60 million; and then there's the guaranteed money. What's reasonable? $20-$25 million guaranteed?
I don't know - anybody have any insight?
Based on recent deals, those figures are probably in the ball park. They can finagle some things to make the guaranteed $$ look higher though (see Quinn)
In a second not only would the Giants have three first round picks but they would clear the cap space needed to re-sign JPP. Then the Giants could draft Shelton, and either of Scherff, Peat, Collins, or Flowers and with the 3rd first rounder they could take DE Alvin Dupree. Their DL would look like Ayers Shelton Hankins Dupree with Jenkins, Moore, Wynn, Bromley and likely another DE drafted later.
Absolutely.
I'm sure plenty of teams want him.
But there are very few players in this league outside of the QB who teams would give up 2 first rounders for on top of immediately giving them a huge contract. You could probably count that list on one hand for non-QB's.
Highly likely/Probable (will be top priorities):
Starting mid-level or better Safety -Rolle not coming back unless it's at a greatly reduced cost, could be a Tuck-like negotiation
Starting mid level or better OL-A tackle or a G/T make the most sense w/ Franklin, Newton as likely targets
DL- always a priority for this team especially with Spagnuolo back with at least one likely to be DT (have probably 3-4 targets here with a value placed on each one that they are willing to spend)
Possible (depending on how much space they free up):
WR -Cobb seamless transition to McAdoo offense , young explosive,versatile, organization said to like him alot (Cruz /Randle both have chance to be gone after this year)
Fitzy as another possibility if they think he has a couple prime years left
TE- another Jerry Reese special (in terms of cost/contract length) like Bennett , Myers were.
LB- if the right guy is out there they may actually spend real dollars here. A Boley-type contract for someone is not out of the question. Could be as simple as resigning Jaquain but right now we sorely need a LB who is at least average in coverage.
CB-simply re-signing or extending alot of their own guys they would be pretty deep here. I don't see any big moves.
This is not a comprehensive list by any means and is just an initial estimation into their current thinking process based on what I know. JonC , Matt, area junc hopefully will be able to provide better insight as the process moves along.
"The second the extend Eli they drop to 10-15th in space."
extension sounds great when you only consider the first year. Not so great when you look down the road. Eli's cap hit for next year is around 19-20 million. It isn't going away. you can kick it down the road, but he WILL get 19-20 million for being on the team next year, and it will show up as a cap hit somewhere.
I am almost always against extensions unless it results in cutability down the road, or represents a paycut. the ability to re-sign is no different now than at the end of a contract. If Eli wants to leave/test the waters, he'll refuse to extend and test the waters. and the same injury concern for players should also be a concern for the team. If Eli is extended, and then has a Theisman moment, that's a bummer for the cap.
I'm not worried in the least about re-signing Eli after his contract runs out.
If the #Giants do plan on using the non-exclusive franchise tag on JPP, that has not been relayed to him or his camp yet.
Of course you do. There isn't a big disparity from 9 to 12...in fact, whoever we would have taken at 9, there is probably a 50/50 chance they'd still be available at 12. This would be a dream scenario for me - would only happen if a WR is there that Cleveland really wants and they feel they need to jump ahead of Minny to grab.
but the flip side is that we're not keeping him for nothing, either.
we are guaranteeing that JPP is going to be the highest paid non QB in Giants history.
Tommy looks like you have the general idea. There is plenty of options to increase cap space considerably in addition to having even more room in 2016.
but the flip side is that we're not keeping him for nothing, either.
we are guaranteeing that JPP is going to be the highest paid non QB in Giants history.
Contracts in the NFL are always so layered. Any time you think you know some team is in cap hell, or has no options, or you hear a dollar value on a contract announcement, you find out later it's never as bad as it sounds like initially. The Cowboys seem like they're cap-screwed every season, yet they aren't. And they always hand out huge contracts.
the only way I give up 2 # 1's for JPP is if the contract is ridiculously low. Let's say someone offers him a contract (and he accepts). that means we now have 2 # 1's from that someone in our pocket. we can match the contract and lose those 1's, or we can not match and keep the 1's. the contract has to be significantly south of 10 mil per for me to lose those 1's. we're not a contender in the next couple of years with him on the team. 2 # 1's, plus our own...yeah, now we're talking rebuild.
Could really see the tag either way. Somewhat injury prone, and the $14.6M all counts against this year's cap. I know we can get more flexibility by cutting and extending other players, but it's still a lot, and limits what we can do in FA. We also have to think about an extension for Prince.
But he does play a premium position, came on at the end of last season, and was excellent against the run. And if we don't tag him, he can walk as a FA, and we get nothing, except maybe a comp pick next year. Tagging him also gives us one more year to develop his replacements if he leaves after 2015.
if you worry about his back, tagging him is preferable to signing him long term.
As long as they draft well and get some contributions from last year's FA class, i'm talking to you Schwartz/Jennings, and this year's coming FA class...the Giants will be a contender. They have the QB QR combo and some other important pieces in place.
Get JPP signed long term and I will feel pretty good about where this team sits.
Most deals are structured that way, at least initially. Take JJ Watt's recent "$100M deal". He can be cut after the 2015 season with only $6M in dead money. Obviously that's not preferable, but it's not crippling either, especially since it could always be split between 2016/2017 if needed ($3M dead each year).
Robert Quinn and his "$41M guaranteed"? Can be cut after 2015 with only $2.87M in dead money.
Where teams get themselves in trouble is restructures by taking large non-guaranteed base salaries and converting a large chunk of them to pro-rated guaranteed money. Prime example of this is Romo who would have >$10M in dead money if cut before 2018.
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though we can most likely assume that any contract he signs, would have to be structured to protect the Giants against that type of possible career-threatening injury should it become chronic..
Most deals are structured that way, at least initially. Take JJ Watt's recent "$100M deal". He can be cut after the 2015 season with only $6M in dead money. Obviously that's not preferable, but it's not crippling either, especially since it could always be split between 2016/2017 if needed ($3M dead each year).
Robert Quinn and his "$41M guaranteed"? Can be cut after 2015 with only $2.87M in dead money.
Where teams get themselves in trouble is restructures by taking large non-guaranteed base salaries and converting a large chunk of them to pro-rated guaranteed money. Prime example of this is Romo who would have >$10M in dead money if cut before 2018.
I think the Cowboys are going to get hurt by that contract with Romo. He's now 34 I think, and his back looks more and more shaky.
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though we can most likely assume that any contract he signs, would have to be structured to protect the Giants against that type of possible career-threatening injury should it become chronic..
Most deals are structured that way, at least initially. Take JJ Watt's recent "$100M deal". He can be cut after the 2015 season with only $6M in dead money. Obviously that's not preferable, but it's not crippling either, especially since it could always be split between 2016/2017 if needed ($3M dead each year).
Robert Quinn and his "$41M guaranteed"? Can be cut after 2015 with only $2.87M in dead money.
Where teams get themselves in trouble is restructures by taking large non-guaranteed base salaries and converting a large chunk of them to pro-rated guaranteed money. Prime example of this is Romo who would have >$10M in dead money if cut before 2018.
Thank you..Not sure if you're truly a new poster or an older one with a new handle, but stick around..I'm enjoying your insights
It would be as much about his future production as what he's already done. I think Giants fans are a little bit guilty of underselling the guy.
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In comment 12139624 Big Blue '56 said:
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though we can most likely assume that any contract he signs, would have to be structured to protect the Giants against that type of possible career-threatening injury should it become chronic..
Most deals are structured that way, at least initially. Take JJ Watt's recent "$100M deal". He can be cut after the 2015 season with only $6M in dead money. Obviously that's not preferable, but it's not crippling either, especially since it could always be split between 2016/2017 if needed ($3M dead each year).
Robert Quinn and his "$41M guaranteed"? Can be cut after 2015 with only $2.87M in dead money.
Where teams get themselves in trouble is restructures by taking large non-guaranteed base salaries and converting a large chunk of them to pro-rated guaranteed money. Prime example of this is Romo who would have >$10M in dead money if cut before 2018.
Thank you..Not sure if you're truly a new poster or an older one with a new handle, but stick around..I'm enjoying your insights
Been around a while. Old handle is GIANTSr01, but couldn't remember which email I used to sign up and just created a new handle.
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In comment 12139639 giants#1 said:
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In comment 12139624 Big Blue '56 said:
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though we can most likely assume that any contract he signs, would have to be structured to protect the Giants against that type of possible career-threatening injury should it become chronic..
Most deals are structured that way, at least initially. Take JJ Watt's recent "$100M deal". He can be cut after the 2015 season with only $6M in dead money. Obviously that's not preferable, but it's not crippling either, especially since it could always be split between 2016/2017 if needed ($3M dead each year).
Robert Quinn and his "$41M guaranteed"? Can be cut after 2015 with only $2.87M in dead money.
Where teams get themselves in trouble is restructures by taking large non-guaranteed base salaries and converting a large chunk of them to pro-rated guaranteed money. Prime example of this is Romo who would have >$10M in dead money if cut before 2018.
Thank you..Not sure if you're truly a new poster or an older one with a new handle, but stick around..I'm enjoying your insights
Been around a while. Old handle is GIANTSr01, but couldn't remember which email I used to sign up and just created a new handle.
I liked you then as well..:)
It would be as much about his future production as what he's already done. I think Giants fans are a little bit guilty of underselling the guy.
LOL ya think? More than a bit guilty. Perhaps if they watched those other top DE's every week then they might realize this.
It would be as much about his future production as what he's already done. I think Giants fans are a little bit guilty of underselling the guy.
On top of paying him a ton of money, most teams would not do it. Teams rarely give up 1st round picks and pay huge money at the same time anymore.
It would be as much about his future production as what he's already done. I think Giants fans are a little bit guilty of underselling the guy.
Anyone who thinks that is an idiot. As someone mentioned, the Vikes trade a 1st and 2 3rds for Jared Allen. And more recently the Hawks trade a 1st, 7th, and 3rd in the following draft for Harvin (then paid him ~$10M/per with $25.5M guaranteed).
Considering JPP >> Harvin, I find it hard to believe the Giants wouldn't be able to get a comparable haul if they were so inclined.
Listento yourself, Would you give up 2 1st rdr's + pay him what he wants? What has JPP shown us in the last 3 years, excluding the end-of year fluke, 9 sacks in the final 5 games against chump offenses? I believe he is rated the #1 DE against run but, is that worth it in the pass-happy NFL? Me thinks not!
The Allen that Minny go was much more of a sure thing than what JPP is going into the 2015 season.
If anything, BBI over values Giant players.
Even Strahan only had double-digit sacks 6 times in his career.
I'd trade him for a mid to low one and a three.
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Offers their two firsts do you take it? I would.
Of course you do. There isn't a big disparity from 9 to 12...in fact, whoever we would have taken at 9, there is probably a 50/50 chance they'd still be available at 12. This would be a dream scenario for me - would only happen if a WR is there that Cleveland really wants and they feel they need to jump ahead of Minny to grab.
He is referring to Cleveland giving up their 2 1sts to sign JPP which would give us THREE firsts.
Wish we had this last year (OBJ Martin Donald)
but I'm gonna wait. Until after the Baptism. I've decided to be Godfather to Connie's baby. And then I'll meet with Don Barzini, Tattaglia. All the heads of the five families.
Ghost of Al Davis is possible
it would not happen and cleveland would be more foolish than people think they are. plus I don't think it would be both this year even in that scenario.
But that's life in the NFL.............
Signing JPP to a long term contract scares me and I'm not sure he will prove to be worth 11-12 mil per year. It's strange how players have no love for the teams who gave them this chance in the league. These guys don't even want to play for their home team its all about the money.
I'd sell him for a mid round draft pick for someone who would, though. 3rd rounder or up seals the deal.
we're going to overpay for him, and we're going to regret it.
Smart move by the diversity hire?
No way...
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Julius Peppers ability but his commitment is up in the air. Tough call, but at least we get compensation if he leaves. Smart move overall.
Smart move by the diversity hire?
No way...
lulz.
I've been extremely harsh on Reese, but some of the comments in his direction have been painful/hilarious.
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In comment 12140146 TMS said:
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Julius Peppers ability but his commitment is up in the air. Tough call, but at least we get compensation if he leaves. Smart move overall.
Smart move by the diversity hire?
No way...
lulz.
I've been extremely harsh on Reese, but some of the comments in his direction have been painful/hilarious.
TMS's diversity hire post just makes me think of Reese as Conway Stern..
There doesn't seem to be a better option at #9, and you can't keep losing young talent (to injury OR FA).
For those who claim "he feasted gaining sacks against lousy teams" I would say one thing: on at least one passing play vs the Eagles in the last game he made Jason Peters his total bitch with a swim (or rip?) move, hooking his arm behind Peters' right shoulder pad, yanking Peters aside, and flashing unabated towards the QB. It wan't a sack because the QB unloaded, but it was an incompletion, caused directly and solely by JPP. And that was vs one of the top 3 or 4 OLTs in the league.
Notwithstanding the bbi debate re: the value of film study, I was somewhat surprised re: the big deal made about him "just starting" to spend more time in film room, just this past season.
If you read between some of the quotes, management and staff think he could be farther along in his development.
At what cost?
I think he could still be very good especially with the attention OBJ would command and he is about as smart as they come. Him and Eli would be reading the defenses the same latest by mid-season.
The Cobb rumored # is 9mil. How much does Fitz get?
The Cobb rumored # is 9mil. How much does Fitz get?
I hear you, but Fitz is 32 and Cobb 26..I think Cruz, OBJ, Randle and Cobb would more than suffice with Eli
They'd need one helluva plan to move money around and keep their own veterans who are up for new deals happy before handing a swiss army knife those dollars. They'd also have to take a leap of faith they'd be able to upgrade the OL, DL, S etc relatively inexpensively via UFA, and that's much easier said than done.
Fitz has made elite WR dollars for many years, he wouldn't be the first player to compromise in order to play in NY.
I don't think they'll sign Fitz either without a big compromise on his part, but it's fun to speculate.
Its Barzini, its always been Barzini
Jfc I can't take this crap anymore...
Maybe you should go over every DE's stat line from 2014 with a fine tooth comb and tell me which DEs stats hold water snd which ones don't. For fucks sake make it stop if you don't think JPP is a top notch de then you're not being fair.
I've asked this question a dozen times lately but I'll try it again knowing full well you won't answer - name me five, shit name me three DEs that have bettered JPP's performance over the last 4-5 seasons. Please I am all ears
I don't think they'll sign Fitz either without a big compromise on his part, but it's fun to speculate.
You are right in that Cobb is not what Fitz was. Unfortunately, Fitz is not what Fitz was either.
If they follow through with the Tag, they must get an extension done and get the cap hit way down. Then, get Prince done.
This is from yesterday:
mrvax : 2/16/2015 11:35 am : link : reply
if JPP is tagged, the Giants believe he is in the ball park. If he's not tagged, JPP wants way more than the Giants are willing to pay. So, in 2 weeks we will find out. I suspect JPP will want quite a bit more than $12M per which would be my highest offer for him.
$12M per--max - ( New Window )
He may give a discount for not being quite as effective but he's played for so many years for the big bucks, it's hard to imagine he'd hang around for say....$5M-$7M per year.
I like Fitz alot and agree he is one of the smartest , most savvy WRs in the NFL. But he has lost some MPH of the fastball. Doesn't mean he still can't be really good, but the arrow is pointing downward and he has alot of wear on that body already.
For the right dollars and contract length ,I take him in a heartbeat but I think Cobb is the right guy if we are thinking anything long term more than a couple years.
Otherwise, let's hold on to him.
JPP is still a very good player, but not elite (and it's all his fault). When he came back from his back surgery, he was on his way to regaining all he'd lost, but then he made a career mistake ...
He chose NOT to go under the knife when he hurt his shoulder. He's not able to do that twisting "two inch off the ground" swim move, that nobody else can do - that's how he gets the big sacks.
We can afford to pay him, for what he's worth, now. No-way, if he'd opted to get that shoulder fixed.
More evidence that JPP headed towards franchise tag? #giants still haven't talked long-term deal for him, per source. #NFLCombine
"Giants have met with agents for several of their own free agents here, but not Jason Pierre-Paul's agent. That's telling."
More evidence that JPP headed towards franchise tag? #giants still haven't talked long-term deal for him, per source. #NFLCombine
That likely means they know they are far apart on numbers.
They'll get a deal done.
I would probably do it for a #1 and #2. #1 and #3 would be a tougher decision.
I would probably do it for a #1 and #2. #1 and #3 would be a tougher decision.
That was me.
The flexibility, to my understanding, is that the Giants can accept whatever they want to accept as long as both teams agree.
I think it depends. This is also a risk management exercise for JPP. If the alternative is to expose himself to injury/ineffective play for a year under the tag, he might trade some max dollars for guaranteed dollars. It's a calculus any player in his position has to make, just like Cruz did last year.
I would probably do it for a #1 and #2. #1 and #3 would be a tougher decision.
If it were clear that negotiations had gone south and that the chance of retaining JPP after the Franchise deal expired were very small, even less than that is feasible. 1 year of JPP at a $15MM cost isn't worth that much to the team.