Amari Cooper Workout: Below Average?

link to the combine numbers on Walters Football
2015 Combine Results - WR - ( New Window )

So what?

One of the most talked about players in the draft has some questions about his workout at combine. Immediately after the workout it seems nobody is looking at these numbers outside of the 40. This info is posted on a football message board.

You got a problem with it?

Many, many other examples. When the production is elite starting freshman year when most arent good until at least their sophomore year at a major college program, chances are he's the goods.

it's one workout and so what that he had problems in the first 10 yards of the underwear Olympics. the fact that he made up for it in the last 30 shows he has pretty good speed.

on the other hand, a wr who is slow at the line of scrimmage and need time to get up to speed could be susceptible to a press cb and that could be a red flag.

look forward to going over this ad nauseam for the next 2 months.

Id rather be almost anything than a combine/draft dork.

a ninja?

thanks. linked video shows why tom coughlin (and others) sit w/a stopwatch and clock 40's. giants use their own numbers. u never know

how many times have we heard, "he ran faster for us". manningham was one of those guys

This is starting to get annoying KWALL.

I understand you don't view Cooper as the top guy and you have some sort of love for Parker....but watch what Cooper did in the SEC for three years and find me some other guys that have done the same thing.

Parker wasn't overly impressive either...he had a slower twitch and COD than a lot of WRs in the catching drills.

Cooper is a player...but even I won't say he is head and shoulders above the other guys. That said...anyone that calls him the top WR in this class has a lot of reasons to do so.

I don't think this workout cements him in the top 10 like we see on the BBI combine thread.

and others too. So fuck off. ;)

is a phenomenal football player. Great route runner. Another example of the combine being overemphasized, at least relative to what the player did on the field. In this case, that was in the best college football conference.

people praising him more after the workout. My point was the workout was not elite. Certainly not the top that guarantees a top 10 pick.

BTW, this is my first thread on Cooper. Not sure how we reached the annoying level so fast,

we start hearing about all the high upside Rutgers' guys??

But damn...does it really matter if he went 13? 14?

There aren't any WRs in this class that are head and shoulders above the rest. There are a TON of reasons to love Cooper. Watch game tapes over three years and you would be a fool to say otherwise.

The RU stuff has been played out by many before. Try something original. And it's not true either. I don't blindly hype Rutgers guys. They have a few NFL prospects this year and there hasn't been one post about it.

Same last year too.

BTW, I don't get on your case when you call yourself a "Scout" do I?

"game tapes". We all don't have that kind of insider access like you do.

I watch a few games here and there. I've seen several of his games. I just watched his LSU game this week. I also have the Auburn game still on the DVR.

My opinion doesn't match your grading system. Why would you care? I certainly have not gone overboard on this guy or anybody for it to bother you.

In comment 12147272 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

The RU stuff has been played out by many before. Try something original. And it's not true either. I don't blindly hype Rutgers guys. They have a few NFL prospects this year and there hasn't been one post about it. Same last year too. BTW, I don't get on your case when you call yourself a "Scout" do I?

Dont call myself anything.

But the simple point is Cooper is a stud, plain and simple. I don't recall anything you have said other than Cooper b eing not good enough.

that the NFL Network showed the Simulcam with Cooper behind Parker but no adjustment on the times. I expected a change on the times after seeing that video.

The posted time or that video is BS.

As a combine/draft dork this interests me.

"not good enough" has never been posted by me on Cooper.

But I just almost hate the combine...that when someone doesn't like a player...they will find the one or two things like a tenth of a second or an couple inches on a jump to bash a guy....but at the same time tell guys to look at the tape of a guy they love rather than the workout. Thats simply how it came across.

I put some weight in to combine stuff...and if anything my grade on Cooper went down a point. But the kid will still finish in my top 10 overall and I think NYG would be lucky to have him. I don't see why there needs to be a campaign against a guy that has some of the most impressive tape in this class.

Draftbreakdown.com seems to be the best website to watch prospects for fans like us.

against this player.

I didn't think of him as an explosive athlete before the combine. I didn't agree with most about him as a no risk player either. That is all.

The most interesting thing to me is that 40 time and the simulcam. One of them is BS.

The listed times for Cooper are:
10: 1.62 40: 4.42

According to these posted numbers, from 10-40 he ran it in 2.80

Parker is listed:
10:1.56 40: 4.45

That means he ran 10-40 in 2.89. That video doesn't back it up. From 10-40 Parker pulled away from Cooper.

In years past when they showed this discrepancy it always seemed to show up when the official times were posted. This time it was not.

I lile Parker a little better because of his high pointing of the ball and deceptive deep speed. But Cooper strikes me as a Santonio Holmes mixed with Reggie Wayne. Fundamentally great, above avg athletically and great hands. He wont let you down. Id be happy with either at 9.

Didn't know about that one. Nice spreadsheet on combine results.

I'll post Coopers' shuttles. Good or bad.

that you care so much about it.

But with that in mind...do you think Cooper doesn't have runaway speed? Or he can't change direction and gain separation from defenders with or without the ball? The tape simply says otherwise.

What do you think Cooper's floor is? A ballpark NFL player comparison.

I lile Parker a little better because of his high pointing of the ball and deceptive deep speed. But Cooper strikes me as a Santonio Holmes mixed with Reggie Wayne. Fundamentally great, above avg athletically and great hands. He wont let you down. Id be happy with either at 9.

there's no reason lob hand grenades at each other. Both of you guys are better than that and fantastic posters. Now that being said....

I agree with Sy here. Cooper is legit in every way, shape and form. The guy was for the most part the Bama offense this past year. He caught damn near 80 more passes than the #2 Wr. And that's off the top of my head.

He put up playground numbers this year when Defense's game plan was to stop was him...every game!

Out of those 3 I personally like White the best out of the 3, but I don't think you can go wrong with any 3 of them. If White or Cooper are there when we pick at 9 I'll be doing backflips...but of course that's based on what we do in FA.

I don't chase anybody around posting about Cooper or anybody else.

I've been on BBI for 14+ years. I post about college and NFL football. I have opinions on players and how I value them before and after they hit the NFL. Nothing has changed for me.

The real question is "Why the hell do you care about my few posts on Amari Cooper?". This is the strange thing here.

Or disagree with kwall on Cooper but he his opinion was that Cooper didn't have a great combine and threw out some numbers to validate that. And whether it's a big deal or not Sy you kind of agree by saying your grade for him will go down a point.

In comment 12147306 KWALL2 said:

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I don't chase anybody around posting about Cooper or anybody else. I've been on BBI for 14+ years. I post about college and NFL football. I have opinions on players and how I value them before and after they hit the NFL. Nothing has changed for me. The real question is "Why the hell do you care about my few posts on Amari Cooper?". This is the strange thing here.

Maybe I just caught all your posts about Cooper and nothing else...but I feel like every time I have seen your name...it's either about Cooper not being that good or Parker being much better than Cooper. And in all honesty...thats fine. It just seems like an agenda, thats all. And I don't get how you can watch Cooper and not think he is a very good player.

he earned himself some money today

is average NFL WR.

He has stuggled with some press coverage (Vtech and LSU). I just saw the LSU game a few days ago and he did struggle with it (and their best CB was out). They started putting him in more motion to get him released.

He had a nice TD in the game but it came when the CB dropped off him. Other than that he was invisible.

Since I felt he was an avg size/speed/explosion prospect I felt that was a legitimate concern when drafting him in the top 10. I think NFL guys will be able to handle him.

Top 10 pick you want a HR. BEFORE the combine, I thought the better options were White and Parker. I thought of Cooper as a late first rounder.

I also felt before the combine he could be WR#4 (or even lower).

It's built on skill, awareness, toughness, suddenness...etc

And we can't act like he had a bad workout here...

Workouts can be EXTREMLEY OVERRATED.

In comment 12147312 Sy'56 said:

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It's built on skill, awareness, toughness, suddenness...etc And we can't act like he had a bad workout here...

This...Cooper needed to not have a BAD workout. Which he didnt have. Cooper looked fine this year.

question is his sudden movement. I don't think its elite. I felt he had avg size/speed/movement. Moving up to the NFL, that's a risk especially with a top 10 pick.

This is why I would not rank him that high.

He has some good traits for sure but I would rate him a low first and not a top 10.

The workout? It was not special.

3.98/6.71

Compare to 4.14/6.92 for White

With your opinion with Cooper being wr4 in the nfl. That's tough to swallow. We can go back and look at Beckham last year and say same thing because if I recall he did nothing against Alabama. Look how that turned out!

3.98? Is that the short shuttle for Cooper? That's exceptional.

links to the shuttles.

Enough already. You fellate Rutgers players left and right, then show up to nit-pick the guy who was the best WR prospect before AND after the combine.

A comparison to Reggie Wayne and/or Jeremy Maclin is off?

They are in the Google Docs spreadsheet and also at steelesdepot.com

rank in the 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle?

Only WR with a sub-4.0 SS. Among the better 3 cone

.Kirwan may have said such today on NFL radio.

Also said he "wouldn't touch {Green-Beckham} with a 10 foot pole."

This was a good weekend for him. Plain and simple. No more discussion.

with a lot to contribute this time of year arguing with each other over differences of opinion.

If those are Cooper's numbers they're exceptional. Impressive athleticism on everything but the 10-yard split and the vert, jumps off the screen in a number of games against very good competition.

I don't have an opinion on you because I rarely see you post. Other than an occasional "Schiano sucks" comment. Does that sum up your contributions on BBI or am I missing something?

And the Rutgers thing with me is pure BS (but it sure is nice to know that it annoys you and some others. This I enjoy)

This year, they have several draftable players. The TE is ranked #4 by Mayock. I haven't posted once about any of these RU guys and the draft or with the Giants.

Last year, Brandon Coleman was considered their top NFL prospect and I knocked him on BBI as a prospect.

The year before, they had several NFL prospects but I knocked some. For example, WR Mark Harrison ran a great 40 at the combine. I posted he wasn't legit and the better WR was the backup Tim Wright who wasn't invited to the combine. Wright went undrafted and caught 50+ balls as a rookie.

I also talked up a CB Marcus Cooper. A 7th rounder. He started at CB as a rookie.

The idea I blindly pimp RU guys is BS. Something only a fool looking for something would find "annoying".

So to sum it up. Fuck you.

Could have been a good thread.

football site. I like thier draft stuff But I can't find the shuttles. Can you post link.

If the short is: 3.98
3 cone: 6.71

That adds up to very impressive. No doubt about it.

In comment 12147341 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

football site. I like thier draft stuff But I can't find the shuttles. Can you post link. If the short is: 3.98 3 cone: 6.71 That adds up to very impressive. No doubt about it.

On my iPad so it is tough to link. The Google Docs that sjnyfan created has it. Let me check if WalterFootball has added it to its report

No way that is a bad day. 3 hundredths from being sub 4.4.

You can't argue with his production in the SEC. Just seems contrarian to knock him.

The other two guys are close to him as prospects. To be honest I like all three guys.

And they are posted on nfl.com

last three columns

You may need to have landscape
LINK - ( New Window )

I'll wait to see it later.

In the meantime, I have to finish up my next thread "20 Reasons Giants Need Michael Burton".

Parker bailed on these drills. Very weak.

Great showing by Cooper. This numbers are outstanding and make the workout outstanding too especially for a player with production.

Cooper workout: NOT "below average".

You're wrong.

Obviously, we don't know what will happen, but Cooper was the best WR, in the best conference in CF, and had a great combine. That's a fact.

I apologize for being a dick, but it's takes a real set of stones to be Rutgers #1 fan, then question the clearly great workout that Cooper had. It's not up for discussion.

And I root for Rutgers..Hell, I live within shouting distance of the stadium. Most Rutgers fans will admit that Schiano was a great recruiter/"Program builder", but not a great game day coach. For fuck's sake Coughlin chewed his ass out after his douchy antics. Schiano is currently unemployed. Another fact.

In comment 12147313 SoZKillA said:

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Workouts can be EXTREMLEY OVERRATED.

see Stephen Hill:

6'4", 215 lbs
4.36 40
39 1/2 vert
11'1" broad
6.88 3-cone

drafted 2nd round...where is he now? on some practice squad?

had a 6.71 3 cone. That's excellent.

of Stephen Hill.

In comment 12147353 SHO'NUFF said:

Quote:

In comment 12147313 SoZKillA said: Quote: Workouts can be EXTREMLEY OVERRATED. see Stephen Hill: 6'4", 215 lbs 4.36 40 39 1/2 vert 11'1" broad 6.88 3-cone drafted 2nd round...where is he now? on some practice squad?

Stephen Hill was all potential. He played for a team that didn't pass the ball much and while he had a couple nice catches on his tape it was not in the same stratosphere as Cooper's game tape. And plus Stephen Hill had a shit QB and a clusterfuck of an offense when he should have been learning the pro game, I'm not sure how much of a cautionary tale he should be.

I just want to make sure I understand the factual underpinnings of the contention:

From the perspective of elite sprinting and what goes into it:

Starting blocks now have sensors to make sure the starting pistol is before the feet leave the blocks. Is there a similar verification of the start at the Combine?

Starting pistol sounds are computer generated to starting block sensors and spotting sensors and cameras at the 10,30,40,and 60 yd markers and the finish line.

All human timing is no longer used at top meets for they are too flawed...as in human error is +/- .15 of a second at 100 yds.

It has long been known that the shorter the distance the greater the human error in stopwatch timing

Even the slightest of mechanical, but trainable, technique flaws at the start and the first ten yards is worth more than a tenth of a second at 100 yards and more at shorter distances.

some sprinters handle weight and shoe differences well. some do not.

given that the aforementioned variables at the Combine...where non professional sprint timers are deployed...would multiply, not smooth, the variances from truth of the overlay fan pleasing "ultra cam simulator"....are we on solid ground for any aggressive or substantial conclusions or questions, in your opinion, on any two or three athletes timed within fractions of each other?

there is no comparison to Cooper and Hill...Hill is a workout warrior/Combine hero and Cooper is a FOOTBALL PLAYER. Let's not all fall in love with the Whites and Conleys from today.

In comment 12147365 SHO'NUFF said:

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there is no comparison to Cooper and Hill...Hill is a workout warrior/Combine hero and Cooper is a FOOTBALL PLAYER. Let's not all fall in love with the Whites and Conleys from today.

White had a great season this year, he was extremely productive (109 catches). So he's not really a workout warrior. But your point is taken, Cooper has the athleticism in gym shorts too but there is also plenty of game tape against guys who will be playing on Sunday soon.

I believe the "official times" from the combine come from hand timed starts and a laser at the finish.

That's why nothing's used in a vacuum. 2 years prior to Stephen Hill that same non-passing offense produced Demaryius Thomas. Re: the age old tights vs. pads production argument, there are successful NFL players who fall into each category, so there's no definite answer. Collect as many data points as you can, as they say.

I like Cooper a lot and think the Reggie Wayne/Jeremy Maclin comparisons are pretty solid. Kevin White has now shown that he not only looks like Julio Jones in highlights, but also matches him from a size/speed standpoint. I'd be thrilled to get either player at #9, but suspect that neither will be on the board.

White is pretty high up on my list now...he not only has the workout numbers, but the game tape to back it up.

that Simulcam was accurate. In the past times the initial NFL Network posted times were usually faster than the "official". When the simulcam was showed and it contradicted an NFL NEtwork time in the past, it always seemed to be corrected on the official times.

This is what I expected this year.

The video showed Cooper a full yard behind a guy who was timed slower. HOwever, the official times I have seen online were not changed from the NFL Network numbers.

this is nothing more than an all too familiar instance of a stud player having a slightly off workout. And if he falls to 9 we will run to the podium and you will love having him in blue. Cooper is a stud and id love his route running paired with OBJs explosiveness.

if he had gone to an NFL team with a good veteran QB and a solid (and consistent) offensive coaching staff he might not have turned out the way he did. These guys aren't finished products. Although Demaryius Thomas broke out with Tim Tebow under center (albeit with solid coaching from Mike McCoy and others).

I love kevin White and watching his film. Always felt he was a top player in this draft. When watching his film imo I saw a kid that was "fast enough", looked to have game speed. Before combine it seemed some questioned his speed. I'm not sure I see 4.35 on film when watching him but at same time felt Julio Jones(who ran 4.39) at his combine was easily seen on film. The fact is White ran what he did but will scouts question whether they see that on film, or will his time make him surefire #1 wr in draft?

and 10 inch hands. The Giants will sprint up if he is there.

and dropped a ton of balls. Both things that Cooper is the complete opposite of.

baaaaad football player. I dreaded the Giants taking that load of crap.

In comment 12147389 Phil in LA said:

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and 10 inch hands. The Giants will sprint up if he is there.

20 year old, insane production in the SEC. He fits everything they look for. I think Oakland definitely takes one of White/Cooper at 4 and I can't see either one getting by the Jets at 6. Tennessee at 2 also makes sense to grab either one.

Looking at the needs of the teams in the top 8, I think there's a good chance that value-wise the Giants decision ends up being between the edge rushers (Ray and Fowler).

Thanks

For perspective Odell at 5'11 and 198 was a 6.69.

who can kill them with routes.

In comment 12147389 Phil in LA said:

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and 10 inch hands. The Giants will sprint up if he is there.

not to mention he has the production that matches the measurables..

short shuttle at 3.98.

In comment 12147399 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 12147389 Phil in LA said: Quote: and 10 inch hands. The Giants will sprint up if he is there. 20 year old, insane production in the SEC. He fits everything they look for. I think Oakland definitely takes one of White/Cooper at 4 and I can't see either one getting by the Jets at 6. Tennessee at 2 also makes sense to grab either one. Looking at the needs of the teams in the top 8, I think there's a good chance that value-wise the Giants decision ends up being between the edge rushers (Ray and Fowler).

I can easily see the Jets passing.. they have a QB issue and 40 million under the cap.. they can easily get a vet WR.. Plus Bowles is a defensive guy and definitely will want to improve the defense..

I dont see Tennessee by passing Leonard Williams to grab a receiver..

but this comes across as going to absurd lengths to discredit a prospect who for some reason you have a vendetta against.

the best fit for McAdoo's WCO. He is a high floor/high ceiling player.

Any of the 3 would be great. However with Cooper and OBJ this offense would hum like a well oiled machine with very few mistakes.

I'd be surprised if they passed on Leonard Williams, but they have a young QB and getting him an elite weapon has to be a consideration. Obviously it's debatable whether or not either WR ends up with an elite grade.

number two overall.. Many people consider Williams the best player in this draft PERIOD.. Tampa just needs a QB badly.. Tennessee doesnt have to reach for a QB.. They can take the best defensive player in the draft and get a WR in round 2.

goes WR. They need one badly and if Mettenberger is going to get a legit shot, he needs weapons to work with. DL can be had at the top of round 2.

In comment 12147439 Sy'56 said:

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goes WR. They need one badly and if Mettenberger is going to get a legit shot, he needs weapons to work with. DL can be had at the top of round 2.

They do need a WR.. but the question becomes do you pass on Williams, or Mariota at #2 ??

Or do they try and pry those picks away from Cleveland.. ?

Now who I think takes a WR.. Jacksonville.. Raiders.. they have young QB's who need targets to throw to..

Not that any of Hurns/Robinson/Lee have proven to be game breakers, but at 3 there will be likely be value to matchup with a bigger need.

I would be fine with either.. Free Agency we affect the draft a lot this year.

These are things we have to acknowledge.. The Raiders have a little over 54 million dollars in cap space and if they cut a few vets that number could balloon to 70 million.. The Raiders actully have to start spending cash soon to react that 89% cap number by 2016..

The Jags have 61 million dollars in cap space..

They can certain sign a few FA's

Cobb, Maclin, Torrey Smith, Crabtree will all be targets.. Dez and Demaryius will never see FA..

to think that Amari's workout was below average...that means the Giants will get another elite receiver at #9 to put opposite Beckham and pair up with Cruz. Odell, Amari and Vic would be fire

I was worried about him running a 4.56 40 but he showed he has legit 4.4 speed which means he's a legit threat to go over the top in the pros.

There's a smooth vs. explosive relationship with the way athletes move. Some guys are smoother than they are explosive and vice versa. This applies to all athletes. JPP is smoother than he is explosive. Victor Cruz is more explosive than he is smooth. OBJ is like a perfect blend of both, because he's OBJ.

Coopers definitely more smooth than he is explosive. You can see it in his gameplay and you can see it in his mediocre 10yd split and vertical. But he just glides on the field and showed great speed today.

thus the great 3 cone and short shuttle. So he proved both straight line speed and explosive quickness today, and he's got great tape and 10 inch mits. Best WR prospect in this draft.

As the the best fit among the trio for our offense. McAdoo WCO seems perfect for a guy like Cooper who has strong YAC skills and can run every route.

I can see the AJ Green potential in Parker and White could be a beast himself. But I think as far as the Giants are concerned, Cooper makes the most sense. I still think all 3 are within striking distance of each other as prospects.

Green-Beckhan is the guy who disappointed. I just fell in love with the way he moved at his size. It's surreal. But his hands are worse than I thought and he's just got a lot of flaws. I'd still take him in the 2nd round.

One of the top 3-cone results. An awesome sub 4 20yd shuttle. Yeah subpar...what are you drinking? Can I get some? Can you say agenda or what kwall....

In comment 12147466 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

I was worried about him running a 4.56 40 but he showed he has legit 4.4 speed which means he's a legit threat to go over the top in the pros. There's a smooth vs. explosive relationship with the way athletes move. Some guys are smoother than they are explosive and vice versa. This applies to all athletes. JPP is smoother than he is explosive. Victor Cruz is more explosive than he is smooth. OBJ is like a perfect blend of both, because he's OBJ. Coopers definitely more smooth than he is explosive. You can see it in his gameplay and you can see it in his mediocre 10yd split and vertical. But he just glides on the field and showed great speed today.

Agreed...he's still going to be the first receiver picked. If by some miracle Amari fell to us at 9 Reese should sprint to the podium himself with the card bearing the name Amari Cooper. 95% chance he gets picked at #4 by the Raiders.

Now White isn't chopped liver either. Don't think he's on Amari's level but could be a great receiver as well in the pros. I think he's raw talent that needs some time to learn all the intricacies of playing WR on Sunday, where Cooper will know almost everything right away

with Cruz in the slot would be Rams circa 2000 like.

Draft Duke Johnson to be a poor man's Faulk and you'd have the makings of a historic offense provided the OL held up.

In comment 12147482 chris r said:

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with Cruz in the slot would be Rams circa 2000 like. Draft Duke Johnson to be a poor man's Faulk and you'd have the makings of a historic offense provided the OL held up.

The receivers would be like the greatest show on turf Rams but Faulk was the most important component of that offense because he literally did it all. His four year stretch from 1999-2002 stands up to any RB in NFL history when you take his receiving exploits into account

but Cruz (hopefully) will be a lot better than Az Hakim.

Faulk was a historically great RB and arguably top 5 of all time at the position due to his dual-threat ability

are almost surely gone before 9. So it's Parker at 9 among the top WRs, or Melvin Gordon who didn't run as fast as many expected at 4.52 (5th among RBs), but did post a ver good 35" vj. More intetestingly perhaps, Gordon looked very good catching the ball in drills according to Mayock and others. Will have to see Gordon's other speed/ quicks #s - short shuttle, long shuttle, 3 cone and long jump. But IMO the drills are more important.

Any thoughts on the cream among those?

Brashad Perriman, Dorsett, love Lockett (but you might be able to get him a round later). Then the two TES Clive and Max could be in the discussion too.

In comment 12147607 Coach Mason said:

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Brashad Perriman, Dorsett, love Lockett (but you might be able to get him a round later). Then the two TES Clive and Max could be in the discussion too.

I like Strong the most out of those players I think a receiver might be the Giants pick in the first.