and he has lost the message to his fan base. If he wanted to go below the tax he should have goner below the tax. If he wanted to buy his way out of a terrible farm system he should have bought his way out. If he wanted to corner the IFA market he should have gone all in. Hal doesn't seem to be able to go all in and stick to a plan. He jumps from one plan to the next and it almost seems like he is listening to multiple strong voices in his ear. Family, Levine, Cashman. It's not a good message to send to a very spoiled and nervous fan base. If things turn ugly with the older players and starting pitchers breaking down and they win in the low 70's it's going to be right back to spending half a billion on free agents next winter. There is no one in the Yankee organization to get excited about at this time. Maybe some of the kids will jump out in AA or AAA but there is no one close right now. The Yankees are old and boring. Not a good combo.
Are they really rebuilding, or are they just waiting out some expiring contracts so they can binge spend again? I don't mind them going out and spending money on a Cueto or a Jordan Zimmerman, but they're putting a lot of eggs in Severino and/or Judge becoming above average big-league regulars, at least in the short term.
tonight when all of the Yankee shills paint a pretty picture of this non-signing. Must miss television!
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
Again, I think the Yankees actually have a decent farm system. But the idea that you have a deep, well-regarded farm system hasn't prevented Boston, or Los Angeles, or Chicago from trying to acquire the absolute best amateur talent, with little or no regard for position and with a willingness to spend big when premium talent is available.
but to me the Yankee FO just has no fucking idea what they're doing. Maybe it is Cashman versus Hal and & Levine, maybe they all suck. They wanted to get younger, fine, but they have two guys who could play a serviceable MLB 2B this year and instead they drop $5 mil on Stephen fucking Drew, who was a steaming pile of dogshit this year. They have a couple OF who could play at the major league level this year, instead they went out and bought a fourth OF in Chris Young. They can dump half a billion dollars on an offseason last year in reaction to Boston's success, and then this year they allow themselves to be beaten out on an obvious addition to their own system over a comparably small amount of money. There is no direction, no vision. They'll get Judge up to the pros (maybe) and then demote him after he hits .220 over ten games in favor of a veteran acquisition who hits an even .200.
How much do you want to bet that Moncada goes on to become a Â
superstar while none of our IFA's advance beyond Single-A?
Their recent abstinence from the Cuban market aside, I actually think it makes more sense to sign more of these long-shot prospects than putting all the eggs in a single basket. However, knowing the front office's ability to judge talent, I am betting on Moncada instead.
they need to give kids a chance. There is zip zilch zero reason that they shouldn't have given Refsnyder and Pirela a chance to fight for a starting spot this year. If Drew improves in what will likely be a down year for the Yanks, he'll leave in the offseason anyway and the Yanks will be right back where they started. Yeah the Yankees can spend $60 mil on a free agent, and get four or five years. But if history is any guide two of those years will likely be "at" market while two or three more will not be. If Moncada excels, he gets six years at below-market (even if you factor in the initial outlay).
the Yankees have six or seven relievers who could pitch in the majors immediately, including a dynamite lefty. So what do they do? Sign or trade for three relievers who will almost certainly make the MLB roster and two more with a fighting chance. Adding Miller made sense in some ways. Adding Miller plus Wilson plus Carpenter and Shreve? Why?
It doesn't make a whole lot of baseball sense. You were willing to go to $54M tax included for an unknown entity, but $60M was just too much? Seems very arbitrary. I have no idea if Moncada is the next Puig or Abreu, but if he is and he's doing it in Boston at age 21 or 22 then that's going to blow.
That they have changed plans too much and over reacted to the Sox WS with Ellsbury, Beltran, McCann, etc. but I think there plan right now is pretty clear. They think they are 2-3 years away from being truly competitive for the title. There hope is that in that time the young kids in the farm develop into a new core at the same time CC, Tex, and Arod come off the books so they can go big in free agency again with hopefully a young nucleus in place. In the meantime they are signing shorter term stop gap deals.
Now, where I take issue, as others have pointed out, is why not go with a guy like Refsneyder over Drew to see what you have during this process. There answer is likely that they don't think he is ready defensively and Drew is relatively cheap in the interim. Again, I don't like this approach at the position but I think they want to make sure they are covered and if Refsneyder beats him out in spring training or later in the year then great.
My biggest issue with not signing Moncada is that if they liked him enough to shell out $25 million them its silly to lose him over $6.5 million ($13 with tax). They piss away that kind of money all the time on garbage and they can't touch INT free agency for 2 years anyway.
That they have changed plans too much and over reacted to the Sox WS with Ellsbury, Beltran, McCann, etc. but I think there plan right now is pretty clear. They think they are 2-3 years away from being truly competitive for the title. There hope is that in that time the young kids in the farm develop into a new core at the same time CC, Tex, and Arod come off the books so they can go big in free agency again with hopefully a young nucleus in place. In the meantime they are signing shorter term stop gap deals.
Now, where I take issue, as others have pointed out, is why not go with a guy like Refsneyder over Drew to see what you have during this process. There answer is likely that they don't think he is ready defensively and Drew is relatively cheap in the interim. Again, I don't like this approach at the position but I think they want to make sure they are covered and if Refsneyder beats him out in spring training or later in the year then great.
My biggest issue with not signing Moncada is that if they liked him enough to shell out $25 million them its silly to lose him over $6.5 million ($13 with tax). They piss away that kind of money all the time on garbage and they can't touch INT free agency for 2 years anyway.
If they believed they were 2-3 years away from competing for a title they 100% sign Moncada, never sign Headley. They would have a long term view, and they are still caught in between. They have no plan, that much is clear. They had a plan of 189 million and then blew that up so they could sign guys like Beltran and Ellsbury. They change their plans monthly.
You are one of the Yankee posters on this board I respect a lot and you have great insights. I get what you are saying regarding constantly changing plans but I think what I said is exactly what Cash is thinking and appears that's the path they are taking (Prado trade for younger talent is an example).
I firmly believe Hal put his stupid foot down on what they would pay Marcada despite Cashmans plebes and as I said it makes no sense to go to $25 million and stop $6 million short of what it woukd have taken. Nobody is knocking on the door to play third from the minors thus they signed Headly. I have no beef with that signing at that price and years.
You are one of the Yankee posters on this board I respect a lot and you have great insights. I get what you are saying regarding constantly changing plans but I think what I said is exactly what Cash is thinking and appears that's the path they are taking (Prado trade for younger talent is an example).
I firmly believe Hal put his stupid foot down on what they would pay Marcada despite Cashmans plebes and as I said it makes no sense to go to $25 million and stop $6 million short of what it woukd have taken. Nobody is knocking on the door to play third from the minors thus they signed Headly. I have no beef with that signing at that price and years.
Part of the problem I believe is Hal won't simply let Cashman run the team and just sign the checks. If he did that they'd be much better off imo. We never really know who is making what decision, and the lack of a real plan is probably because cashman and the owners are rarely on the same page. So you have some moves that follow cashman's plan, some that follow what the owners want. That can't work, not when Hal pinches pennies in some spots and then spends wildly in others.
ben badler was on mlb radio on xm and he was asked to give a player comp to moncada. he said nobody in the majors is a comp to moncada's style of play but he said the closest thing is byron buxton. what a kick in the nuts for us and this franchise. this team has zero commitment to winning now.
[img]Justin Sablich þ@JSablichNYT 7m7 minutes ago
Moncada's agent: “I thought the Yankees would have pushed harder at the end." Me too. Me too… http://nyti.ms/1GooXsO [/img]
explaining why Yankees fans are right to be angry. The next time a talent like Moncada comes along the Yankees are unlikely to have the ability to bid on him. Link - ( New Window )
get me to the ALCS or beyond in three years or start looking for a new job. Make sure that we can still be competitive in five or six or I'll can you anyway."
Yankees fans have a right to be pissed. sometimes there are decisions that get made in the FO you don't agree with, so you state your case, but in the end you give the FO the benefit of the doubt (like you have a choice).
This does not seem like one of them. I don't know how to describe this. Is there a defense? Has Cashman or anyone said anything about it?
but there are accounts that say he asked Hal for the money and was rebuffed. Now there are other accounts that say it wasn't Hal's call, but unless Randy Levine or one of the other Tampa assholes had something to say about it that's dubious.
went into damage control late afternoon yesterday trying to spin that it wasn't Hal who didn't want to spend 60 million but others in the organization told him not to do it.
No one in america actually believes that. Hal has overruled everyone plenty of times before (like with Rafael Soriano) but all of a sudden now he's going to let others in the organization talk him out of a guy over 10 million dollars?
But, do you honestly believe he like the Padres as much as the other 3 teams? This was 100% about the money. The Yankees rarely lose when that is the only factor, which is why so many are frustrated here.
But, do you honestly believe he like the Padres as much as the other 3 teams? This was 100% about the money. The Yankees rarely lose when that is the only factor, which is why so many are frustrated here.
The agent said it was 100% about money. He was going to whoever gave him the most.
Hal trying to shift blame to someone else - who???? It's not like there are any layers between him and Cashman. One of the Tampa mafia might have swayed Hal's thinking, but the decision is ultimately his when it comes to dollars.
went into damage control late afternoon yesterday trying to spin that it wasn't Hal who didn't want to spend 60 million but others in the organization told him not to do it.
No one in america actually believes that. Hal has overruled everyone plenty of times before (like with Rafael Soriano) but all of a sudden now he's going to let others in the organization talk him out of a guy over 10 million dollars?
Exactly. Cashman could have said no and been overruled, in this case he said (or appeared to say) yes and was overruled. Someone else might have counseled against it, but there is no one with veto power over Hal Steinbrenner.
I guess in the end it should surprise no one that a Steinbrenner is Â
He did everything he could to run from it. I one winter of Hank and Hal was pushed into the job by the rest of the family. Maybe it's time for the Steinbrenners to cash out. As long as Dolan isn't the new owner how much worse can it get? If they sell hopefully Levine and Cashman aren't retained.
It's frustrating to think that a differentce of $13M stopped them Â
He did everything he could to run from it. I one winter of Hank and Hal was pushed into the job by the rest of the family. Maybe it's time for the Steinbrenners to cash out. As long as Dolan isn't the new owner how much worse can it get? If they sell hopefully Levine and Cashman aren't retained.
I'd be shocked if they sell. They have the premier franchise in the MLB cartel. It would probably take something like 4 billion. The team prints money. If the Wilpons can hold on to their team then the Steinbrenners can as well.
they love being the owners of the Mets and will do anything to keep the team. It's well known Hal hated being part of the Yankees and wanted nothing to do with running the team. Which might explain why such a smart guy is doing such a shitty job.
tonight when all of the Yankee shills paint a pretty picture of this non-signing. Must miss television!
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
Again, I think the Yankees actually have a decent farm system. But the idea that you have a deep, well-regarded farm system hasn't prevented Boston, or Los Angeles, or Chicago from trying to acquire the absolute best amateur talent, with little or no regard for position and with a willingness to spend big when premium talent is available.
Decent at best, and that is being kind.
RE: The Wilpons are holding on because they love it Â
they love being the owners of the Mets and will do anything to keep the team. It's well known Hal hated being part of the Yankees and wanted nothing to do with running the team. Which might explain why such a smart guy is doing such a shitty job.
He's only doing a shitty job if you care about baseball moves like this. The team is worth at least twice what it was when he took over.
which built value. Otherwise the value of sports franchises mushroomed and they benefited accordingly. The relative worth of the franchise is a function of their winning. If they continue to be mediocre the value will stagnate or at least increase at a lower rate than other pro teams.
That's true, but the Mets built a stadium and have roughly the same Â
My point is that Hal is a bean counter, pure and simple. His dad wasn't. Maybe that's good for the bottom line but it's also a departure from the old days.
George got the politics done. George passed on MSG and started the network. Hal has just been along for the ride since 2008. He spent big money that winter and last winter but hasn't done anything to increase the value of the Yankees. All he's done so far is take some cash out of YES for the family.
RE: That's true, but the Mets built a stadium and have roughly the same Â
My point is that Hal is a bean counter, pure and simple. His dad wasn't. Maybe that's good for the bottom line but it's also a departure from the old days.
They're certainly not incompatible though. George bought the franchise for a relative pittance and they were worth many times that when he died, but the greatest capital appreciation occurred when they were consistently winning. The true ownership decisions that the Steinbrothers have made since George's passing regarding personnel have been financially stupid and had little impact on winning.
the funny thing is that Hank was the one who wanted to be in charge Â
I'm sure Michael Kay will be critical of the decision and will challenge Cashman on it.
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
FOAD
Quote:
tonight when all of the Yankee shills paint a pretty picture of this non-signing. Must miss television!
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
Again, I think the Yankees actually have a decent farm system. But the idea that you have a deep, well-regarded farm system hasn't prevented Boston, or Los Angeles, or Chicago from trying to acquire the absolute best amateur talent, with little or no regard for position and with a willingness to spend big when premium talent is available.
Their recent abstinence from the Cuban market aside, I actually think it makes more sense to sign more of these long-shot prospects than putting all the eggs in a single basket. However, knowing the front office's ability to judge talent, I am betting on Moncada instead.
Now, where I take issue, as others have pointed out, is why not go with a guy like Refsneyder over Drew to see what you have during this process. There answer is likely that they don't think he is ready defensively and Drew is relatively cheap in the interim. Again, I don't like this approach at the position but I think they want to make sure they are covered and if Refsneyder beats him out in spring training or later in the year then great.
My biggest issue with not signing Moncada is that if they liked him enough to shell out $25 million them its silly to lose him over $6.5 million ($13 with tax). They piss away that kind of money all the time on garbage and they can't touch INT free agency for 2 years anyway.
Now, where I take issue, as others have pointed out, is why not go with a guy like Refsneyder over Drew to see what you have during this process. There answer is likely that they don't think he is ready defensively and Drew is relatively cheap in the interim. Again, I don't like this approach at the position but I think they want to make sure they are covered and if Refsneyder beats him out in spring training or later in the year then great.
My biggest issue with not signing Moncada is that if they liked him enough to shell out $25 million them its silly to lose him over $6.5 million ($13 with tax). They piss away that kind of money all the time on garbage and they can't touch INT free agency for 2 years anyway.
If they believed they were 2-3 years away from competing for a title they 100% sign Moncada, never sign Headley. They would have a long term view, and they are still caught in between. They have no plan, that much is clear. They had a plan of 189 million and then blew that up so they could sign guys like Beltran and Ellsbury. They change their plans monthly.
I firmly believe Hal put his stupid foot down on what they would pay Marcada despite Cashmans plebes and as I said it makes no sense to go to $25 million and stop $6 million short of what it woukd have taken. Nobody is knocking on the door to play third from the minors thus they signed Headly. I have no beef with that signing at that price and years.
I firmly believe Hal put his stupid foot down on what they would pay Marcada despite Cashmans plebes and as I said it makes no sense to go to $25 million and stop $6 million short of what it woukd have taken. Nobody is knocking on the door to play third from the minors thus they signed Headly. I have no beef with that signing at that price and years.
Part of the problem I believe is Hal won't simply let Cashman run the team and just sign the checks. If he did that they'd be much better off imo. We never really know who is making what decision, and the lack of a real plan is probably because cashman and the owners are rarely on the same page. So you have some moves that follow cashman's plan, some that follow what the owners want. That can't work, not when Hal pinches pennies in some spots and then spends wildly in others.
Moncada's agent: “I thought the Yankees would have pushed harder at the end." Me too. Me too… http://nyti.ms/1GooXsO [/img]
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
That would be a strategy.
Yankees fans have a right to be pissed. sometimes there are decisions that get made in the FO you don't agree with, so you state your case, but in the end you give the FO the benefit of the doubt (like you have a choice).
This does not seem like one of them. I don't know how to describe this. Is there a defense? Has Cashman or anyone said anything about it?
No one in america actually believes that. Hal has overruled everyone plenty of times before (like with Rafael Soriano) but all of a sudden now he's going to let others in the organization talk him out of a guy over 10 million dollars?
The agent said it was 100% about money. He was going to whoever gave him the most.
No one in america actually believes that. Hal has overruled everyone plenty of times before (like with Rafael Soriano) but all of a sudden now he's going to let others in the organization talk him out of a guy over 10 million dollars?
Exactly. Cashman could have said no and been overruled, in this case he said (or appeared to say) yes and was overruled. Someone else might have counseled against it, but there is no one with veto power over Hal Steinbrenner.
Hoipefully they land another Cuban top prospect before 6/15.
I'd be shocked if they sell. They have the premier franchise in the MLB cartel. It would probably take something like 4 billion. The team prints money. If the Wilpons can hold on to their team then the Steinbrenners can as well.
Held a seance to ask his dad what he said, and Ghost of Big Stein told him to stay firm at $27 mill.
Quote:
In comment 12149601 TheMick7 said:
Quote:
tonight when all of the Yankee shills paint a pretty picture of this non-signing. Must miss television!
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
Again, I think the Yankees actually have a decent farm system. But the idea that you have a deep, well-regarded farm system hasn't prevented Boston, or Los Angeles, or Chicago from trying to acquire the absolute best amateur talent, with little or no regard for position and with a willingness to spend big when premium talent is available.
Decent at best, and that is being kind.
He's only doing a shitty job if you care about baseball moves like this. The team is worth at least twice what it was when he took over.
My point is that Hal is a bean counter, pure and simple. His dad wasn't. Maybe that's good for the bottom line but it's also a departure from the old days.
My point is that Hal is a bean counter, pure and simple. His dad wasn't. Maybe that's good for the bottom line but it's also a departure from the old days.
They're certainly not incompatible though. George bought the franchise for a relative pittance and they were worth many times that when he died, but the greatest capital appreciation occurred when they were consistently winning. The true ownership decisions that the Steinbrothers have made since George's passing regarding personnel have been financially stupid and had little impact on winning.
It's going to be a painful season.