I have begun to pay less and less attention to the Yanks due to having to watch broke down and overpriced players. I miss the Boss. The entire sport has become much less appealing to me these days. How many days until the Giants report to camp???
offseason for Boston. Their MLB roster got better and they are still loaded with young talent. Signing Moncada just adds to that. I still think Blue Jays will be best 2015 AL East team, but Boston will have a shot at the division and is set up to be really good for the next 5 years or so.
It's a shame the Mets didn't even seriously consider making a bid for this guy, but I think Mets fans are used to cheap ownership at this point.
a new 10 year deal when he had no other suitors. They are stuck until they get rid of that contract. And CC, Texiera as well. And McCann and Ellsbury. And Beltran.
In other words they suck. They are old, decrepit and over priced.
the Blue Jays are the baseball Redskins minus the idiot owner Â
to sign Moncada. With the Yanks in a 100% tax situation it would have cost them $60M to $80M. Thats a lot of money to shell out on a prospect. That's not penny pinching, thats using a little financial sanity.
to sign Moncada. With the Yanks in a 100% tax situation it would have cost them $60M to $80M. Thats a lot of money to shell out on a prospect. That's not penny pinching, thats using a little financial sanity.
The same people who decided it was a good idea to give a 37 year-old 45 million don't get pats on the back for "financial sanity".
The kid is turning 20 this year. Lots of time left before he is in the big leagues. That is insane money for a young player. I guess we will see pretty shortly.
I have begun to pay less and less attention to the Yanks due to having to watch broke down and overpriced players. I miss the Boss. The entire sport has become much less appealing to me these days. How many days until the Giants report to camp???
I feel the same way, you can't proclaim not signing free agents to get younger then have one of the premier young players at your disposal for just cash while owning the most lucrative team and network in baseball. Them claim fiscal sanity about why you dont him and let him go to the hated rival. I won't give a dollar to them this season or for the future. FU Hal.
The worst thing about this is that it inspires another round of Â
George Steinbrenner amnesia, when those too young or too stupid to remember what he actually was as an owner pretend that nothing bad ever happened when he owned the team.
international FAs for 2 years, Moncada was supposed to be the big get to offset this and make it all worthwhile.
I am stunned and utterly dissapointed in the direction of this team. This whole offseason was a big fat F without getting Moncada. Im sure we were all dying for the re-signing of Stephen Drew and Chase Headley smh.
Cant believe we will have to go through the struggle to win 84 games a year for the next 3 or more years while the powerhouse red sox with their loaded boat of prospects and excellent offseason makes the Yankees their bitch.
so glad they gave Jacoby fucking Ellsbury $150 million Â
They were dogshit last year, and so far their much ballyhooed farm system hasn't produced much in the way of productive major leaguers. They're in a better place than the Yankees but let's not go overboard.
RE: The worst thing about this is that it inspires another round of Â
George Steinbrenner amnesia, when those too young or too stupid to remember what he actually was as an owner pretend that nothing bad ever happened when he owned the team.
They were dogshit last year, and so far their much ballyhooed farm system hasn't produced much in the way of productive major leaguers. They're in a better place than the Yankees but let's not go overboard.
whatever, I didnt think baseball in February would get my blood pressure up...but losing Moncada to the Red Sox not the Dodgers of all teams has gotten me heated, he to me was the centerpiece of this entire offseason.
WHHHAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????? Â
a pitcher (Alvarez, I think but since it's off the top of my head I could have the name wrong). That could be a nice get for NY before their international signings shut down.
signing no one even if it means not winning. We need to bottom out and unload these bad contracts. I've lost interest in the team because of our continued practice of just signing players, and not great signings at that.
They were dogshit last year, and so far their much ballyhooed farm system hasn't produced much in the way of productive major leaguers. They're in a better place than the Yankees but let's not go overboard.
I am optimistic and believe Bogaerts is much better than his total numbers showed last year. The lows were very low but his highs for a rookie were very good. A core of Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, Castillo,and Moncada should be decent. Pitching...who knows.
a new 10 year deal when he had no other suitors. They are stuck until they get rid of that contract. And CC, Texiera as well. And McCann and Ellsbury. And Beltran.
In other words they suck. They are old, decrepit and over priced.
Coming off a 54 home run 156 rbi season. Yeah, he had no suitors, I am sure.
There is no salary cap in baseball. If they wanted the guy, they could have signed him, no matter what contracts they had out there. After all, Jeter came off the books this season. Apparently, the baseball side did not think Moncada was worth it after conducting several workouts with him.
They were dogshit last year, and so far their much ballyhooed farm system hasn't produced much in the way of productive major leaguers. They're in a better place than the Yankees but let's not go overboard.
All I said is they had a better off-season than the Bluejays.
the Sox added Hanley, Sandoval, Justin Masterson, Moncada, Porcello, Ogando, Wade Miley - all guys who will play or start for them in 2015 except Moncada who is now a top 5 prospect in baseball,
signing no one even if it means not winning. We need to bottom out and unload these bad contracts. I've lost interest in the team because of our continued practice of just signing players, and not great signings at that.
So you are ok with losing for another 3-4 years? Anyway, you sign prospects now let them develop and in a year or 2 you are ready to win.
RE: The worst thing about this is that it inspires another round of Â
George Steinbrenner amnesia, when those too young or too stupid to remember what he actually was as an owner pretend that nothing bad ever happened when he owned the team.
Agree completely. The "Yankee fan since 1996" crowd has no idea what an embarrassment he was. Just watch Seinfeld. Larry David was a riot ranting and raving like him.
RE: RE: Blame Hank-enstein. He is the asshole who gave A-roid Â
a new 10 year deal when he had no other suitors. They are stuck until they get rid of that contract. And CC, Texiera as well. And McCann and Ellsbury. And Beltran.
In other words they suck. They are old, decrepit and over priced.
Coming off a 54 home run 156 rbi season. Yeah, he had no suitors, I am sure.
There is no salary cap in baseball. If they wanted the guy, they could have signed him, no matter what contracts they had out there. After all, Jeter came off the books this season. Apparently, the baseball side did not think Moncada was worth it after conducting several workouts with him.
That's right Homer. He opted out (during the WS and pissed off all of baseball). He was not going to get a 10 yr deal from anybody.
Are you actually touting signing Miley and Masterson? Miley was mediocre at best last year, and Masterson was ungodly awful. Hanley has become injury prone and has no defensive position, and it's not going to be long before Sandoval's contract becomes an anchor around their necks. Aside from signing Moncada, I don't think their offseason was particularly good at all.
was getting anything close to what he got is a moron. Worst deal ever now. Even people in favor of it knew The last 5 years would suck. Problem was he didn't even make through 3
You had to figure it would come down to us or the Sox. Â
and Porcello was a top 30 WAR pitcher in all of baseball. Those players improve their team. Miley had a 1.7 WAR which is around replacement level. My biggest question with the Red Sox is they don't have an ace this year (or even a #1 starter), they have a bunch of #3 starters and a couple guys with #2 starter potential. But they can still trade for a Hamels or someone.
So what is your prediction for the Red Sox this year?
7th worst in baseball last year, and according to Greg in LI the only significant addition they made is an A ball player a few years away from the majors.
And their 2015 prediction from Greg in LI is: ________
1. I don't think this is "official" yet
2. Didn't the Yankees sign a bunch of the top int'l free agents recently?
3. Some of you guys are ridiculous: "My team didn't get the guy I wanted so I'm gonna hold my breath and pout!"
"According to MLB.com, the Yankees signed the top two, three of the top five, four of the top seven, five of the top nine, and eight of the top 20 available prospects. According to Baseball America, they signed one of the top five, three of the top eight, four of the top nine, and six of the top 20 prospects." Breaking down the Yankees’ record international free agent haul - ( New Window )
RE: RE: The worst thing about this is that it inspires another round of Â
George Steinbrenner amnesia, when those too young or too stupid to remember what he actually was as an owner pretend that nothing bad ever happened when he owned the team.
Agree completely. The "Yankee fan since 1996" crowd has no idea what an embarrassment he was. Just watch Seinfeld. Larry David was a riot ranting and raving like him.
Right - but to make the same mistakes that George made - signing players past their prime, making terrible deals, and overpaying underwhelming talent - is the real issue. The organization should have learned that this is not the way to win.
Overpay by tens of millions + years on contracts instead of investing in a young, talented kid with huge upside (not to mention losing out by what amounts to $6M if they were willing to go to $27M)? Madness.
annoyed he went to the Sox then anything else. I can't blame the Yankees for not spending 60 million on an unproven player. Just stings because it's not like our farm system is oozing top tier talent either.
A lot depends on some of those vaunted prospects taking the next step and performing at a big league level, on Hanley staying healthy, on whether Porcello can maintain his performance from last season (he really wasn't good before last year). Like I said, they're in a good position for the future but for the immediate future they have a lot of question marks.
1. I don't think this is "official" yet
2. Didn't the Yankees sign a bunch of the top int'l free agents recently?
3. Some of you guys are ridiculous: "My team didn't get the guy I wanted so I'm gonna hold my breath and pout!"
"According to MLB.com, the Yankees signed the top two, three of the top five, four of the top seven, five of the top nine, and eight of the top 20 available prospects. According to Baseball America, they signed one of the top five, three of the top eight, four of the top nine, and six of the top 20 prospects." Breaking down the Yankees’ record international free agent haul - ( New Window )
And that's great, but we're talking about a bunch of 16-17 year olds there. It'll be a long time before those signings start to bear fruit. Moncada is much closer than that.
The money doesnt surprise me. I've said on a lot of Moncada threads that when you crunch the #s it makes no sense to pay this kid a $40-50 million bonus in a world where FAs make about $7 million/WAR. Double it for taxes, accelerate it all to day one, but the kid doesnt see MLB for 1-3 years, and then recognize that this is just bonus and if he's good he'll get big arb awards in years 4,5, and 6 (and possibly 3 if Super 2).
You'd have to project him as a BA #1 overall prospect to justify that kind of bonus, and from what I can tell he is solidly behind Buxton (#1) and Correa (#1 middle INF). Callis gave him a 65 grade, which would slot him in the #4-13 range on MLB.com's list.
If you can add talent to your team that you otherwise don't have an opportunity to add (no 19 year old FA's are available and you win too much to get top 10 draft picks) the value is irrelevant and you add the player.
particularly when you're the Yankees and you have money coming out Â
but read in conjunction with the last few years the ship just looks rudderless. The Sox win the ultimate fluke World Series and the Yankees went apeshit, giving out that absurd contract to Ellsbury and otherwise just being incredibly reactive. This year they blitz the IFA market, which is great, but overall spending was less than half of what Moncada will get. Otherwise, they spend very little (outside of Andrew Miller). To react to the Sox win but then to get outbid on one of the best young amateurs to hit the FA market in the last decade just looks like there is no direction.
1) Greg - Thank you for reminding people about the real Steinbrenner. There are too many people, and not just young fans, who act like Steinbrenner's reign was isolated to 1994-2000. Prior to being banned, he had a few good moves early that helped them win the WS and then a ton of terrible moves in the 80s.
2) I may be in the minority on this, but I don't think this is the end of the world. Given their current payroll/tax situation, this is not a no-brainer...especially for a 20 year old.
3) To me, the real value in international FAs is signing a number of cheap deals with the young kids and hoping you hit it with one or two.
they've lacked a clear direction for a while now Â
Everything is patches and temporary fixes. They'd better pray Judge and Refsnyder and Severino all hit their most optimistic projections, and that Gary Sanchez finally gets his head out of his ass and starts making something of his prodigious natural talent.
I agree about the lack of direction. what I still can't figure out is if that is on Cashman, or if he is still just a lackey for a group of executives making the decisions. I have never had a full sense that he had full control of baseball operations. but, I never had a full sense he didn't either.
I think it would be best for everyone if Cashman moved on Â
He's had the job for 17 years. Most jobs in sports have a shelf life, and Yankees GM has unique problems that make it even tougher. The problem is, do you trust Hal and Levine to hire a capable replacement?
$30 million much less $60 million is ridiculous for a prospect in baseball. You wouldn't think of paying that kind of money for a #1 pick franchise QB in football and yet baseball prospects are far less certain. At best it will be a year and probably several before this kid can play in the majors. Even then he has to adjust to the pressure cooker that is the Boston Red Sox.
Lets face it, this day had to come for the Yankees. They're bogged down with bad contracts and they're paying about $180 million for a team that stinks. They don't need to add any more dead weight.
a 20 year old with star potential is 'dead weight'? Â
I was born in 76. Became a serious fan right around the time George was a laughing stock owner and then lived through what will forever be remembered as one of the great dynasty teams in all of sports. If you are going to kill him for what he was you have to praise him for what he became. What he became was also how he left the game so one could say he learned from his mistakes and turned into a ruthless win at all costs owner we all wish we had right now. So with that fuck Hal and this current group and give me back the Stick, Stein tandem.
The dynasty only happened because GS was out of commission Â
Even that isn't an accurate recollection. George returned and let Stick make the big decisions for a few years. After the Yankees started winning again, George interjected his opinions and moves more and more and is a big reason that dynasty started unraveling as they kept getting older.
That said, I'd still rather have a blustery Boss than Hal and the rest of the ownership "team".
RE: RE: RE: Blame Hank-enstein. He is the asshole who gave A-roid Â
a new 10 year deal when he had no other suitors. They are stuck until they get rid of that contract. And CC, Texiera as well. And McCann and Ellsbury. And Beltran.
In other words they suck. They are old, decrepit and over priced.
Coming off a 54 home run 156 rbi season. Yeah, he had no suitors, I am sure.
There is no salary cap in baseball. If they wanted the guy, they could have signed him, no matter what contracts they had out there. After all, Jeter came off the books this season. Apparently, the baseball side did not think Moncada was worth it after conducting several workouts with him.
That's right Homer. He opted out (during the WS and pissed off all of baseball). He was not going to get a 10 yr deal from anybody.
So you say. Unless you are telling me that you are privy to what other teams (like the Red Sox, who seem to have plenty of dough) were going to do, you are speculating.
And btw, A-Rod's payments under that contract have been dropping since 2010, so the Yankees are paying $10 million less that 2010 on that contract. Jeter is off the books. If the Yankees didn't sign Moncada, it wasn't from lack of funds.
They could actually do worse, since motherfucking Dolan supposedly has long been interested in buying the Yankees. Corporate ownership would suck, too.
Who exactly is their future? The farm system still sucks. They have no idea how to develop players, and they let top prospects go for a couple of bucks, meanwhile they give out 150 (plus luxury tax) million to schmucks like Jacoby Ellsbury,
They have no idea what they are doing. This team has nothing to look forward to.
And make no mistakes. There was not Stick-Stein tandem, as you called it. Stick was calling the shots while George was gone and built the franchise back from the ground up, while adding some key veterans. That foundation was laid by Michael and Showalter, to a lesser degree. George had nothing to do with it, but did start his tinkering when the winning began. Replacing Stick with Watson was one example, because he thought he was getting a yes-man in Watson. Same goes for replacing Watson with Cashman. In his early years, Cashman was GM, but mostly in title only.
RE: I don't think we can say what the system is right now Â
They do have some talented guys. Yes, I know their player development has been weak for a while, but Newman's gone now. Maybe Denbo changes that.
I think based on how piss poor the farm system has been for a while we can say what it is. We've heard about talented guys for years and seen next to no results.
Dolan own the Yankees than Hal Steinbrenner. He wouldn't go cheap ever. And he couldn't possibly make worse decisions than Hal has made.
Fuck that. All I want from lil Jimmy Dolan is for him to finally just OD on cocaine. What's the sense in trading a bad owner for the very worst owner in professional sports? Dan Snyder wouldn't go cheap, you want him?
RE: Abreu, Moncada, Tomas, Castillo, Puig, Cespedes, Soler Â
This is the one market they should be cleaning up in and they have passed on every single one.
Don't worry though, they'll sign guys like jacoby ellsbury to 25 million dollar contracts per year.
He's a terrible, terrible owner. It's been clear for a couple years. He has no plan, what so ever. They spend like fucking idiots when they shouldn't, and go cheap when they should spend.
Dolan own the Yankees than Hal Steinbrenner. He wouldn't go cheap ever. And he couldn't possibly make worse decisions than Hal has made.
Fuck that. All I want from lil Jimmy Dolan is for him to finally just OD on cocaine. What's the sense in trading a bad owner for the very worst owner in professional sports? Dan Snyder wouldn't go cheap, you want him?
Put them in a sport with no salary cap and you'd see far different results. They wouldn't give a shit about luxury tax. Would Dolan be a great mlb owner? No, but he'd be better than jerkoff Hal Steinbrenner
How can anyone possibly think this is a good thing? Â
They have money to burn - they could have done this with only financial penalty, to help shore up a farm system that isn't exactly well regarded.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
That's the thing. I still don't know how much of these moves (and non-moves) are Hall and Co. or Cashman. Either way, it means it's time for Cashman to go. If these are part of his plans, then he deserves to be fired. If he is still being handcuffed by management, then let him go or better yet, he should leave.
didn't even want any part of the team but things changed after Steve Swindal got DUI and divorced. Now he's running the team straight into the ground. People better be prepared for a 3-4 year period of sucking balls because that's what's coming. I'd be fine with that if they had people who know what they were doing to rebuild, he does not, Cashman does not.
This rebuild is going to take much longer than it ever should have.
That's the thing. I still don't know how much of these moves (and non-moves) are Hall and Co. or Cashman. Either way, it means it's time for Cashman to go. If these are part of his plans, then he deserves to be fired. If he is still being handcuffed by management, then let him go or better yet, he should leave.
Cashman is a fucking pupper for the Steinbrenners. He doesn't make these decisions, the dumb owners do.
He needs to go, too. But nothing is going to change as long as idiot Hal is in charge
That's the key difference. George wanted, above all else, to win. Whether you liked him or his decisions or his tactics, or not, you still respected that about him. Hal wants to run the franchise on the bottom line first. I wouldn't go so far as to say they have a small market mentality yet. But, they certainly aren't operating as a franchise that is minting money before the season even starts.
Even that isn't an accurate recollection. George returned and let Stick make the big decisions for a few years. After the Yankees started winning again, George interjected his opinions and moves more and more and is a big reason that dynasty started unraveling as they kept getting older.
That said, I'd still rather have a blustery Boss than Hal and the rest of the ownership "team".
Revisionist history.
Cashman has been the GM since 1998 and was given more control over personnel matters since 2005, when he threatened to go to the Nationals. That is also when he first started yakking about his plans to preserve prospects. We are now in year 10 of his "plan."
That's the thing. I still don't know how much of these moves (and non-moves) are Hall and Co. or Cashman. Either way, it means it's time for Cashman to go. If these are part of his plans, then he deserves to be fired. If he is still being handcuffed by management, then let him go or better yet, he should leave.
Cashman is a fucking pupper for the Steinbrenners. He doesn't make these decisions, the dumb owners do.
He needs to go, too. But nothing is going to change as long as idiot Hal is in charge
We can call him an idiot. Clearly he is not. But what is also clear is that his priority is on making money and not winning games and that's different than his Dad.
They have money to burn - they could have done this with only financial penalty, to help shore up a farm system that isn't exactly well regarded.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
Money to burn eh? Cant wait til they make a deal for Cliff Lee or hey let's sign a Marlon Byrd to a 4 year deal in the offseason. I have no faith in the decision making brain trust, and I'd rather fail with upside and potential as at least those kids give a shit and want to prove something.
The problem is this lack of a plan has been an issue for more than a decade. Since about 2003 or so, they have been getting older and older and relied on older players more and more. As the players from the 4 WS teams began aging and/or retiring, there just wasn't a clear plan to keep the dynasty going. They went to the old standby of plugging in other aging players. they got mostly guys who were good enough to keep them competitive during the season, but not a team that could consistently win deep into the playoffs.
is that this is burning a lot for a 20 year old that is not likely to be in the majors for at least another year and a half. That is an exorbitant amount with little immediate return and then the likelihood of an even bigger contract when he gets up. if it doesn't turn into a huge contract, that just means he was a huge and expensive bust.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
RE: RE: How can anyone possibly think this is a good thing? Â
They have money to burn - they could have done this with only financial penalty, to help shore up a farm system that isn't exactly well regarded.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
Money to burn eh? Cant wait til they make a deal for Cliff Lee or hey let's sign a Marlon Byrd to a 4 year deal in the offseason. I have no faith in the decision making brain trust, and I'd rather fail with upside and potential as at least those kids give a shit and want to prove something.
Haha, the Yanks have been after Cliff Lee for a decade, of course we'll finally overpay for him when he's all done and nobody else wants him
Jacoby Ellsbury 150 million (plus luxury tax). After that asinine contract I dont want to ever hear them say they dont have enough money for a guy like Moncada.
They would have been better off lighting 80 million dollars on fire than signing jacoby ellsbury to a 150 plus luxury tax contract.
might as well cue up the reactionary overpay of Hector Olivera now. The less talented, older, more injury prone option who the Yankees will see immediately fill a role (attempt to put fans in chairs) than the more long term approach of Moncada.
Not the willingness to spend so much as what they actually decide to spend on. I hated that Ellsbury deal with a burning passion the moment I read about it, and I hate it even more now.
RE: The problem I have with thinking they have money to burn Â
is that this is burning a lot for a 20 year old that is not likely to be in the majors for at least another year and a half. That is an exorbitant amount with little immediate return and then the likelihood of an even bigger contract when he gets up. if it doesn't turn into a huge contract, that just means he was a huge and expensive bust.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Look at the contracts they've given out to old players recently. What's a better use of funds, giving it to a guy who is old and washed up, or a guy who has star potential?
I'd rather give 60 million to a potential star than 60 million to Carlos Beltran.
RE: The problem I have with thinking they have money to burn Â
is that this is burning a lot for a 20 year old that is not likely to be in the majors for at least another year and a half. That is an exorbitant amount with little immediate return and then the likelihood of an even bigger contract when he gets up. if it doesn't turn into a huge contract, that just means he was a huge and expensive bust.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Matt, this is the Yankees. Hal's got the difference between what he offered and what Moncada got in his couch cushions. We didn't lose the guy because we were practicing financial constraint, or because we didn't think he was worth it. We missed him because we were trying to get value, when clearly we needed him enough to justify overpaying for potential not production
They pay Gardner $12.5M and decide, in a relative same time frame, decide to pay Elssbury $10M more per year. That is inasnae. They are essentially the same player, minus Ellsbury's 2011 season, which is not going to ever be repeated. If they wanted to overpay for Ellsbury, $15M would have been reasonable. $22M per just makes no sense.
rosters, those were the good old days. right before the key trades of players like Kelly for O'Neil. The days of Scott K coming up and Bob Wickman, Sterling Hitchcock. Just acquired Charlie Hayes to play 3rd. Jessie Barfield. sigh That was right before all the magic happened.
are doing. They can't seems to do a complete rebuild because of the immediate cost of losing games so they are still giving out big contracts. Yet, it's as if they have been running a ponzi scheme-- trade away all assets to pay for past performance of shiny toys who don't yeild the necessary results and it leaves the team's position in shambles.
I like the approach Cashman had on taking a number of flyers on guys who may still have something left in the tank even if it has a high bust rate (Rios, Nick Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Ibanez, Beltran, Ichiro), but the problem is when the majority of the lineup is comprised of these guys, because you never then get the youngsters game experience and a chance to develop to see what they have.
I also think part of this is the Steinbrenner children not knowing what they are doing or what they want to do-- and it's probably the result of "scionology" (http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/03/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-church-of-scionology/)
If I am correct about this, is they're locked out of the int'l FA market for the next year or two, so they could fold that budget into this years. Isn't that right? I'm sure that is how it is with the Red Sox too.
instead of signing schmucks like Stephen Drew to contracts (believe he has gotten 10 million or so in last 2 years plus tax) take that money and spend it on a guy like Moncada.
They have signed so many shitheads recently. Chase headley is another one
The Yankees were already locked out of IFAs for 2 years Â
If I am correct about this, is they're locked out of the int'l FA market for the next year or two, so they could fold that budget into this years. Isn't that right? I'm sure that is how it is with the Red Sox too.
The Yankees were already locked out of the int'l FA market for next year, they went over their budget and so did the red sox before they ever signed Moncada. Knowing that is even more of a reason to sign him
missing something on Ellsbury? He all accounts, he had a good year last year, and the concensus is that he's going to have another good year this year. Is it just worry about the backend of the contract? Just about every big FA contract signed recently is going to be a poor value in the last few years...
contract. I think he is a very underrated player and I think the future value of mlb contracts with the new TV deals that teams are getting make it more reasonable. I'm just not sure how wise it was to offer Ellsbury the deal if the team's braintrust was giong to keep playing "toe in the water, toe out of the water" with their decisions.
no options, he's very tradeable after a year or two if they eat a little money. Jagielo is probably two years away anyway, and Andujar at least that far.
It looks like the Yankees actually have a budget. Not a payroll/luxury tax budget but a spending budget. They took the $ savings from A-Rod last year and spent it on IFA. Which would be all well and good if they didn't have the biggest revenue in the game (for now) and the highest ticket prices in the game. I understand not wanting to spend 150% of your next closest competitor, but to be spending 80% of what the Dodgers do with their revenue is pretty unreasonable in light of the cost of a Stadium experience.
missing something on Ellsbury? He all accounts, he had a good year last year, and the concensus is that he's going to have another good year this year. Is it just worry about the backend of the contract? Just about every big FA contract signed recently is going to be a poor value in the last few years...
You're not. Yankees fans are acting like babies on this thread. You'd think that the Red Sox just poached a 27 year old Jeter off their roster.
Ellsbury is a decent player who is grossly overpaid Â
rosters, those were the good old days. right before the key trades of players like Kelly for O'Neil. The days of Scott K coming up and Bob Wickman, Sterling Hitchcock. Just acquired Charlie Hayes to play 3rd. Jessie Barfield. sigh That was right before all the magic happened.
Yes, indeed...Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps...Bobby Meacham as our SS of the future...Clay Parker and Chuck Cary as our starting rotation of the future...Steve Trout...we could go on all day
Refsnyder will be ready in 1, maybe less. And it's not like the Yankees didn't plunder Latin America before Moncada. See: SS Jorge Mateo, SS Angel Aguilar, C Luis Torrens, OF Leonardo Molina, 3B Miguel Andujar.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
If they went full rebuild, completely blew everything up and built the team up from within. I have no problems holding on to some of the older dead weight types that can't be moved ( CC, Tex, Arod etc) but this middle ground shit is just brutal. I hate this team I hate that there only a 2-3 guys that came up from the farm... No identity with this team at all.
I'd love 1992 again but the yanks are a brand so they have to field a team of stars... Bullshit. That line of thinking will keep this team away from October for a long time.
was an overpay, but one I wish the Mets made. I think when you're talking free agents, unless you get a guy on a 1-year show me deal, they're frequently overpays.
And that's no surprise.
RE: Moncada isn't going to be ready for 1-2 years Â
Refsnyder will be ready in 1, maybe less. And it's not like the Yankees didn't plunder Latin America before Moncada. See: SS Jorge Mateo, SS Angel Aguilar, C Luis Torrens, OF Leonardo Molina, 3B Miguel Andujar.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
was an overpay, but one I wish the Mets made. I think when you're talking free agents, unless you get a guy on a 1-year show me deal, they're frequently overpays.
And that's no surprise.
we'll give you ellsbury for free right now. Just pay the contract.
The Yankees signing ellsbury made zero sense. They have ellsbury already on the roster. Gardner and ellsbury had basically the same season last year. Ellsbury was overpaid by 10 million per year
when healthy, Ellsbury is one of the better players in the game Â
Refsnyder will be ready in 1, maybe less. And it's not like the Yankees didn't plunder Latin America before Moncada. See: SS Jorge Mateo, SS Angel Aguilar, C Luis Torrens, OF Leonardo Molina, 3B Miguel Andujar.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
They didn't plunder Latin America, they made some nice, reasonable-priced signings prior to the IFA binge. All well and good. And if you're a small or mid-market team making some judicious amateur signings is a good idea. But when you're the fucking Yankees, and you wonder why your attendance is slowly declining and your stopgaps aren't quite enough, you shouldn't sit out every premium Latin American signing over a five or six year period and then tell your fans how committed you are to winning.
looking back, I'm amazed they actually signed Tanaka Â
trouble is, he rarely makes it through a full season healthy
Exactly one year in his career has he been one of the better players in the game.
Every other year, he's been a pretty good player. It's not just injuries that hold him back. He played 149 games last year. And he was just "pretty good". Far from worth 22 million
Ellsbury moves to the 2nd worst contract in baseball behind Pujols.
Ellsbury was a 3.6 WAR player, meaning he outperformed his contract last season. He is far from the 3rd worst contract in baseball. Melvin "Dont Call me BJ" Upton is still owed 46 million, and hasnt been positive WAR in either of his first two seasons. Ryan Howard is owed $60mm and is so bad that there are reports that no one will take him even if Philly eats the whole contract. Josh Hamilton is 33 and very hurt, and is owed $25.4, 32.4, and 32.4 in the next three years, respectively. Ellsbury doesnt have a mega bad deal -- there is a pretty decent chance he outperforms it for at least half the years.
Re others' comments: RBIs and spot in the batting order are pretty ridiculous grounds to criticize a guy on. Neither have all that much to do with the player. A 16 HR 39 SB OF who can defend is a good thing. Crawford is owed $83mm.
Recent World Series winners have started guys like Joe Panik, Marco Scutaro, Ryan Theriot and Freddy Sanchez - generally no-power, high .200s veterans who get the job done with little flash.
I feel like we need to step back from the ledge a bit here and realize that missing out on Moncada isn't the end of the world. Also, I feel like Yankees fans have been very quick to completely give up on the signings of Ellsbury and Beltran - but that's another story.
He's a pretty good player making superstar money Â
He's a player whose game is based almost entirely on speed, he's 31 years old already and they're on the hook for six more seasons. It's an awful contract.
it's just another sign that Hal has no fucking clue what he's doing. That's what the most troubling thing is. Look at the decisions he's been making, he doesnt get the benefit of the doubt, because most of the things he's done have been a complete disaster.
What is the hope with this franchise right now? They have bad contracts galore and continue giving them out, they have a shit farm system. They have no one ready to come up that can really be a top player.
The organization is in terrible shape no matter what way you look at it. It's going to get significantly worse before it has a chance to get better. And i'd be fine with it getting significantly worse if they actually had a plan on how to build it back up, but they don't.
what the Yankees should be doing. Instead they are sitting there with their thumb up their ass with a garbage farm system and continuing to hand out awful contracts on the major league level.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 · 2h 2 hours ago
#Redsox -- like #Cubs b4 them -- see hitting deficiency and are accumulating young, potential impact bats
Not gonna pick on Ellsbury. He's a good player. What bothered me was Â
overpaying for him instead of overpaying for Cano. Neither guy is worth the contract but I don't understand the choice to overpay for Ellsbury over Cano. I could have understood not overpaying for either too.
Superstar money is service-time adjusted $30+/season. Kershaw just got 30. Stanton is getting high 20s with an optout at age 30. Trout is getting $34 for his UFA seasons. Cabrerra just got extended for ~30. Some other guys have terrible commitment after age 35 (eg Cano). Ellsbury doesnt.
Mook: Gardner's production is irrelevant to whether Ellsbury is overpaid. If Gardner was paid $30 million, does that make Ellsbury's contract a good deal? You can argue whether they're duplicative players, but on an absolute basis the contracts are unrelated. Didnt Gardner also get extended a year early as well? Players take a discount for getting that early piece of mind.
what the Yankees should be doing. Instead they are sitting there with their thumb up their ass with a garbage farm system and continuing to hand out awful contracts on the major league level.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 · 2h 2 hours ago
#Redsox -- like #Cubs b4 them -- see hitting deficiency and are accumulating young, potential impact bats
This I agree with. 800 OPS is star territory these days. It is fucking sad. Though I dont know whether it is few hitting talents (in which case you have to stock up) or just an adjustment in the game where good hitters do worse because pitching has gotten so good (and in particular, guys throw so hard).
Any way you slice it, the Ellsbury contact is out of line with the player he is. Last year wasn't a bad year; it was a typical year for him. But, that isn't a $22M player. He is essentially the same player as Gardner, maybe slightly better. Would you consider paying Gardner even in the vicinity of $22M? The Yankees wouldn't, as they paid him $12.5M in a relatively close time frame to the Elssbury signing. Ellsbury, at $15M, would still be overpaid, but acceptable.
I was in favor of signing Ellsbury then and like him as a player still. But, I HATE signing him for what they did. It is just a stupid deal, especially when a deal like this prevents them from spending just one year later.
RE: RE: when healthy, Ellsbury is one of the better players in the game Â
trouble is, he rarely makes it through a full season healthy
Exactly one year in his career has he been one of the better players in the game.
Every other year, he's been a pretty good player. It's not just injuries that hold him back. He played 149 games last year. And he was just "pretty good". Far from worth 22 million
Ellsbury played 149, but he was playing hurt for much of the season. He was scorching hot early on, then once the dings set in (wasnt it a bad calf muscle in 14?) he slid into the "pretty good" category...which isn't close to worth his deal.
I'm not arguing with you that we overpaid for him, just stating my opinion, he's borderline elite, for those brief stretches when he isn't hurt
is that what they ended up paying him was not that far off from what they were going to pay Cano. Now, the deal breaker for Cano was more the extra years, than the annual salary. But, they could have potentially upped the salary for the shorter deal and re-signed Cano, rather than grossly overpaid Ellsbury. Cano, at least, is a legitimate #3 hitter.
Ellsbury hitting #3 isn't his fault. It is the fault of bad roster design and also based on injuries leaving them little choice. But, he is a #1 or #2 hitter batting out of position.
Hal doesn't like baseball, never has. His old man is turning over in his grave. I bought into the not spending for the big ML FA's, the so-called start of a youth movement. But if that's the case, not going full out for one of the last top international prospects they'll be able to sign in the next two years is unexecusable!
the troubling signing I keep in mind is the signing of Kevin Youkilis. Giving him $12MM was a much greater sin IMO than the signing of Ellsbury.
Not even close - Ellsbury got a 7 year deal. THAT'S the real sin.
In Ellsbury's case you are at least betting on a player to be a big part of your future. In Youk's case you are spending money on a player whose best days are clearly in his past.
I disagree with the latter approach to managing a team, and while I can criticize the overspending and overcommitment to the former, I can live with it. Spending on over-the-hill players is bad when a star has outlived his contract (as Ellsbury no doubt will do at some point), but it's worse when they are at that point when you signed them to begin with.
To make matters worse look at the opportunities missed when signing Youk.
and I'm not sure that's the case, you expect that he more than earns it early in the deal and then fails to do so later on, and that on the balance it is close to even. That is unlikely. But moreover he possesses a skillset very similar to what Gardner has, and is making significantly more money for longer. A smart, forward-thinking team would have paid Gardner and either banked the Ellsbury money or put it toward a power-hitter.
And I disagree with Mook about valuing Ellsbury's production as a 3-hitter, but only because I don't think Ellsbury is or should be a 3-hitter, and the reason he is has more to do with shitty roster construction than his fitness for the role.
especially when discussing Ellsbury. They have nothing to do with eac other. The Yankees were NEVER giving Cano what he wanted or what Seattle gave him. Not for that price at those years at his age. Ellsbury didn't prevent them from signing Cano.
Just sticking to the Moncada signing though one thing perplexes if the reports are true about them going to 27 or 28 mill and no higher. They worked the kid out twice and I can live with it if the evaluation was that 60 mill for a 20 year old unknown was just too much and they passed. However that's clearly not the case if they went to 27 or 28. They obviously though he was worth a sizable investment. So you come up 2 or 3 mill short to the Red Sox??? Very weird.
But the fact that he stays healthy all year and was still just "ok" scares me. Because there will be years where he's hurt and plays 100 or less games. I know they're coming. So for him to be only "ok" in a healthy season his first year of the deal bothers me a lot.
Still, I think I'd rather have Ellsbury for his deal than Cano for his. Cano is a far better hitter but that contract he signed was ludicrous and is exactly the type of contract the Yankees needed to avoid. The Yanks are struggling to deal with A-Rod's contract. Signing Cano was just asking for a repeat of that situation, especially considering the PEDs rumors surrounding him. Yanks wanted no part of that.
Beltran/McCann/Teixeira... THAT'S WHO YOU SHOULD BE BLAMING, far more than Ellsbury. Those guys are the reason we didn't get anywhere last year.
Teixeira gave us a great year in '09 where he was in the MVP mix, and he seems like a solid dude (although he gives off a bit of a politician vibe). But outside of that he might be one of my least favorite Yankees in a while. Especially since he was garbage in the '09 post-season when A-Rod had to carry his ass.
A-Rod is A-Rod. But Teixiera is the guy I'm just getting angrier and angrier at as every single season passes. He's ben a bum but he's getting paid like a superstar.
If the Beltran/McCann/Teixeira trio plays better than last year and our pitching staff stays healthy (I'm looking at you Tanaka), we could make a push for the post-season.
I tried to warn you guys. Hal is a tool, and George was likeable at the end, but he also was an idiot. But the big difference is that the kids are interested in the bottom line first, then baseball, they are making money hand over fist! With the TV contract they have and the new stadium, they could have easily afforded to sign Moncada, but money is more important. They will now tell you all about the guys in the minors they love, wait, that is coming next.
I tried to warn you guys. Hal is a tool, and George was likeable at the end, but he also was an idiot. But the big difference is that the kids are interested in the bottom line first, then baseball, they are making money hand over fist! With the TV contract they have and the new stadium, they could have easily afforded to sign Moncada, but money is more important. They will now tell you all about the guys in the minors they love, wait, that is coming next.
The thing is it is penny-wise and pound foolish in terms of their bottom line. You can cut the budget but if you're not consistently competitive it's going to be a net loss because you lose stretch and postseason revenue year in and year out, and capital appreciation/maintenance owes in large part to their status as a winner.
They just have no rhyme or reason to when they decide to spend money. It's like Hal's putting up a poster of contract numbers and just throwing darts at it.
What I want to know is how did Moncada look in the workouts? Â
That's the problem. They spend in some places they shouldn't and then pull in the reins where they shouldn't. This is not a new problem, though. they have had issues with organizational direction for years now.
First off, not signing Moncada over what amounts to around $12 million (taking into account the tax) is just plain stupid to me. They sorely need young impact hitters and not signing this kid to what only amounts to nominal dollars given the Yankee money making machine just doesn't make sense especially since they arent't exactly overflowing with such talent.
Second, the previous signings of CC, Arod, and Tex are absolutely killing them right now. If you want to throw Beltran and Ellsburry in there too, I get that, but that really isn't the problem.
I believe that the brass realizes that a rebuild is necessary (and yes they should have realized this much sooner) and are finally starting to do so. It seems obvious to me that they are waiting for CC, Arod and Tex to come off the books, hope that the farm starts producing some major league talent by then, and will then spend big again in free agency if the opportunity is there. I think this is the right move but certainly would have signed Moncada.
The free agent signings (and lack thereof of big ticket guys) and trades this offseason all point to the above direction. I have no problem with the Headley or Miller signings either and could care less about the Drew signing (he is nothing more than insurance if Refsynder doesn't pan out and/or buys some time).
What is killing baseball in general, and heavily hurting the Yankee veterans who are set in there ways (McCann, Tex, for example) is the heavy use of the shift but that's a different conversation.
...those saying that Hal doesn't know what he is doing is incorrect IMO. Hal is running the Yankees as a business pure and simple while his dad wanted to win at all costs. I went to graduate school with Hal and that is what he knows (eg finance). Now, do I like that Hal is running things this way? Hell no. Further, I think he is hurting the Yankee brand and have no earthly idea why anyone would pay the outrageous ticket prices to see this year's squad.
I would view this very differently. Then I would be upset they didn't land him. given the general consensus is that he is a year or more away, it is really a lot of money to pay up front for an untested kid, who isn't even going to hit the ball club until this deal is 2 years in.
this is
MookGiants : 12:16 pm : link : reply
what the Yankees should be doing. Instead they are sitting there with their thumb up their ass with a garbage farm system and continuing to hand out awful contracts on the major league level.
Code:
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 · 2h 2 hours ago
#Redsox -- like #Cubs b4 them -- see hitting deficiency and are accumulating young, potential impact bats
"The Yankees were assigned a $2.2M signing pool for international players this summer, but they blew right through that. Based on what we know, they will have to pay approximately $12.31M in taxes for going over their pool, and the final number will be higher than that since it is inevitable several signings have yet to be reported. Between bonuses and penalties, the current total payout is $26.82M, or thereabouts.... all of the team’s notable signings are position players."
"There are always a lot of prospect rankings around this time of year, and Kiley McDaniel has come up with an absurdly detailed Yankees list over at FanGraphs. McDaniel ranked his top 35, then kept going with mild scouting reports for another 30 or so others in the Yankees system. “Tampa Bay is the only other team with close to this kind of depth,” McDaniel wrote, “but the Yankees have two top-end talents (RHP Luis Severino and RF Aaron Judge) that the Rays can’t match, which helps separate the Bombers from Tampa Bay and other deep systems. Right now, I have the Yankees as the 10th best system in baseball, but with the bulk of high upside young talent and five of the top six prospects likely returning to next year’s list making it better than 50/50 that they’ll be even higher next year.”"
The team with the second-highest payroll in the sport and was the most aggressive in the international market this past off-season shouldn't be accused of being cheap. I don't think their minor-league system is nearly as bad as some contend, and I think there IS a plan in place to get younger and more athletic while shedding bad contracts. I think Cashman had a very good off-season this year, but we'll have to see how it turns out. I'm not terribly optimistic about the 2015 season, but I think things are moving in the right direction... Minor league notes and links: Fresh batch of Yankees prospect rankings - ( New Window )
just saw one of my friends post about this and he is a huge Red Sox fan (season ticket holder). He is like "this is ridiculous, what the hell are we going to do with the kid, i guess he is a year or two away so i guess he will be the heir apparent to Pedroia" LOL
I think it's generally a good and underrated system, and that it has contributed more to the big league team than orgs that have picked higher and spent more over the last several years. And one of Dermis Garcia or Juan De Leon or Nelson Gomez could go on to have a better pro career than Yoan Moncada.
But Moncada's bonus was more than the whole of their 7/2 spending binge, with the penalty more than twice as much. Ditto the price of Tomas, of Castillo, likely of Olivera.
it doesn't make sense to spend big on the big league team because that team is somewhat hamstrung by the 90 million bucks or whatever going to A-Rod, CC, Teix and Beltran. That team is not gonna be a big factor this year anyway.
SO SPEND BIG ON THE KIDS AND SET UP THE NEXT GENERATION. That's what they did with the rest of the IFA class. I just don't get losing out here. Weird place to be cheap.
Refsnyder will be ready in 1, maybe less. And it's not like the Yankees didn't plunder Latin America before Moncada. See: SS Jorge Mateo, SS Angel Aguilar, C Luis Torrens, OF Leonardo Molina, 3B Miguel Andujar.
So there's at least one sensible Yankee fan on this thread. I'm as disappointed as anyone, thought Moncada fit the Yankees needs perfectly. And with tons of upside. the Yankees have already unloaded on signing intl fa's, not like they haven't made a major effort to replenish talent on the farm. And not like they sat out on the moncada bidding.
They allowed the Sawx to win the bidding for what is essentially pocket change for the Yankees. They were willing to go to $27 mill but not $30? Ludicrous.
Never had a more disappointing morning as a Yankee fan. Not necessarily because of the player, but because of the context and the state of the team. The Stein boys don't deserve their last name, nor do they deserve ownership of this franchise. Honestly, the Sox? WTF.
If that's the case, then I agree about this being embarrassing. However, if it is simply not liking the realization that a $20M-$30M contract was going to be nearly double and they were not comfortable with that, I don't have much fault for them.
But, if that wasn't the issue so much, as settling on the final amount by a couple of million, then there is a problem.
Can't wait to see the new Yankees Hotstove on YES Â
and he has lost the message to his fan base. If he wanted to go below the tax he should have goner below the tax. If he wanted to buy his way out of a terrible farm system he should have bought his way out. If he wanted to corner the IFA market he should have gone all in. Hal doesn't seem to be able to go all in and stick to a plan. He jumps from one plan to the next and it almost seems like he is listening to multiple strong voices in his ear. Family, Levine, Cashman. It's not a good message to send to a very spoiled and nervous fan base. If things turn ugly with the older players and starting pitchers breaking down and they win in the low 70's it's going to be right back to spending half a billion on free agents next winter. There is no one in the Yankee organization to get excited about at this time. Maybe some of the kids will jump out in AA or AAA but there is no one close right now. The Yankees are old and boring. Not a good combo.
Are they really rebuilding, or are they just waiting out some expiring contracts so they can binge spend again? I don't mind them going out and spending money on a Cueto or a Jordan Zimmerman, but they're putting a lot of eggs in Severino and/or Judge becoming above average big-league regulars, at least in the short term.
tonight when all of the Yankee shills paint a pretty picture of this non-signing. Must miss television!
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
Again, I think the Yankees actually have a decent farm system. But the idea that you have a deep, well-regarded farm system hasn't prevented Boston, or Los Angeles, or Chicago from trying to acquire the absolute best amateur talent, with little or no regard for position and with a willingness to spend big when premium talent is available.
but to me the Yankee FO just has no fucking idea what they're doing. Maybe it is Cashman versus Hal and & Levine, maybe they all suck. They wanted to get younger, fine, but they have two guys who could play a serviceable MLB 2B this year and instead they drop $5 mil on Stephen fucking Drew, who was a steaming pile of dogshit this year. They have a couple OF who could play at the major league level this year, instead they went out and bought a fourth OF in Chris Young. They can dump half a billion dollars on an offseason last year in reaction to Boston's success, and then this year they allow themselves to be beaten out on an obvious addition to their own system over a comparably small amount of money. There is no direction, no vision. They'll get Judge up to the pros (maybe) and then demote him after he hits .220 over ten games in favor of a veteran acquisition who hits an even .200.
How much do you want to bet that Moncada goes on to become a Â
superstar while none of our IFA's advance beyond Single-A?
Their recent abstinence from the Cuban market aside, I actually think it makes more sense to sign more of these long-shot prospects than putting all the eggs in a single basket. However, knowing the front office's ability to judge talent, I am betting on Moncada instead.
they need to give kids a chance. There is zip zilch zero reason that they shouldn't have given Refsnyder and Pirela a chance to fight for a starting spot this year. If Drew improves in what will likely be a down year for the Yanks, he'll leave in the offseason anyway and the Yanks will be right back where they started. Yeah the Yankees can spend $60 mil on a free agent, and get four or five years. But if history is any guide two of those years will likely be "at" market while two or three more will not be. If Moncada excels, he gets six years at below-market (even if you factor in the initial outlay).
the Yankees have six or seven relievers who could pitch in the majors immediately, including a dynamite lefty. So what do they do? Sign or trade for three relievers who will almost certainly make the MLB roster and two more with a fighting chance. Adding Miller made sense in some ways. Adding Miller plus Wilson plus Carpenter and Shreve? Why?
It doesn't make a whole lot of baseball sense. You were willing to go to $54M tax included for an unknown entity, but $60M was just too much? Seems very arbitrary. I have no idea if Moncada is the next Puig or Abreu, but if he is and he's doing it in Boston at age 21 or 22 then that's going to blow.
That they have changed plans too much and over reacted to the Sox WS with Ellsbury, Beltran, McCann, etc. but I think there plan right now is pretty clear. They think they are 2-3 years away from being truly competitive for the title. There hope is that in that time the young kids in the farm develop into a new core at the same time CC, Tex, and Arod come off the books so they can go big in free agency again with hopefully a young nucleus in place. In the meantime they are signing shorter term stop gap deals.
Now, where I take issue, as others have pointed out, is why not go with a guy like Refsneyder over Drew to see what you have during this process. There answer is likely that they don't think he is ready defensively and Drew is relatively cheap in the interim. Again, I don't like this approach at the position but I think they want to make sure they are covered and if Refsneyder beats him out in spring training or later in the year then great.
My biggest issue with not signing Moncada is that if they liked him enough to shell out $25 million them its silly to lose him over $6.5 million ($13 with tax). They piss away that kind of money all the time on garbage and they can't touch INT free agency for 2 years anyway.
That they have changed plans too much and over reacted to the Sox WS with Ellsbury, Beltran, McCann, etc. but I think there plan right now is pretty clear. They think they are 2-3 years away from being truly competitive for the title. There hope is that in that time the young kids in the farm develop into a new core at the same time CC, Tex, and Arod come off the books so they can go big in free agency again with hopefully a young nucleus in place. In the meantime they are signing shorter term stop gap deals.
Now, where I take issue, as others have pointed out, is why not go with a guy like Refsneyder over Drew to see what you have during this process. There answer is likely that they don't think he is ready defensively and Drew is relatively cheap in the interim. Again, I don't like this approach at the position but I think they want to make sure they are covered and if Refsneyder beats him out in spring training or later in the year then great.
My biggest issue with not signing Moncada is that if they liked him enough to shell out $25 million them its silly to lose him over $6.5 million ($13 with tax). They piss away that kind of money all the time on garbage and they can't touch INT free agency for 2 years anyway.
If they believed they were 2-3 years away from competing for a title they 100% sign Moncada, never sign Headley. They would have a long term view, and they are still caught in between. They have no plan, that much is clear. They had a plan of 189 million and then blew that up so they could sign guys like Beltran and Ellsbury. They change their plans monthly.
You are one of the Yankee posters on this board I respect a lot and you have great insights. I get what you are saying regarding constantly changing plans but I think what I said is exactly what Cash is thinking and appears that's the path they are taking (Prado trade for younger talent is an example).
I firmly believe Hal put his stupid foot down on what they would pay Marcada despite Cashmans plebes and as I said it makes no sense to go to $25 million and stop $6 million short of what it woukd have taken. Nobody is knocking on the door to play third from the minors thus they signed Headly. I have no beef with that signing at that price and years.
You are one of the Yankee posters on this board I respect a lot and you have great insights. I get what you are saying regarding constantly changing plans but I think what I said is exactly what Cash is thinking and appears that's the path they are taking (Prado trade for younger talent is an example).
I firmly believe Hal put his stupid foot down on what they would pay Marcada despite Cashmans plebes and as I said it makes no sense to go to $25 million and stop $6 million short of what it woukd have taken. Nobody is knocking on the door to play third from the minors thus they signed Headly. I have no beef with that signing at that price and years.
Part of the problem I believe is Hal won't simply let Cashman run the team and just sign the checks. If he did that they'd be much better off imo. We never really know who is making what decision, and the lack of a real plan is probably because cashman and the owners are rarely on the same page. So you have some moves that follow cashman's plan, some that follow what the owners want. That can't work, not when Hal pinches pennies in some spots and then spends wildly in others.
ben badler was on mlb radio on xm and he was asked to give a player comp to moncada. he said nobody in the majors is a comp to moncada's style of play but he said the closest thing is byron buxton. what a kick in the nuts for us and this franchise. this team has zero commitment to winning now.
[img]Justin Sablich þ@JSablichNYT 7m7 minutes ago
Moncada's agent: “I thought the Yankees would have pushed harder at the end." Me too. Me too… http://nyti.ms/1GooXsO [/img]
explaining why Yankees fans are right to be angry. The next time a talent like Moncada comes along the Yankees are unlikely to have the ability to bid on him. Link - ( New Window )
get me to the ALCS or beyond in three years or start looking for a new job. Make sure that we can still be competitive in five or six or I'll can you anyway."
Yankees fans have a right to be pissed. sometimes there are decisions that get made in the FO you don't agree with, so you state your case, but in the end you give the FO the benefit of the doubt (like you have a choice).
This does not seem like one of them. I don't know how to describe this. Is there a defense? Has Cashman or anyone said anything about it?
but there are accounts that say he asked Hal for the money and was rebuffed. Now there are other accounts that say it wasn't Hal's call, but unless Randy Levine or one of the other Tampa assholes had something to say about it that's dubious.
went into damage control late afternoon yesterday trying to spin that it wasn't Hal who didn't want to spend 60 million but others in the organization told him not to do it.
No one in america actually believes that. Hal has overruled everyone plenty of times before (like with Rafael Soriano) but all of a sudden now he's going to let others in the organization talk him out of a guy over 10 million dollars?
But, do you honestly believe he like the Padres as much as the other 3 teams? This was 100% about the money. The Yankees rarely lose when that is the only factor, which is why so many are frustrated here.
But, do you honestly believe he like the Padres as much as the other 3 teams? This was 100% about the money. The Yankees rarely lose when that is the only factor, which is why so many are frustrated here.
The agent said it was 100% about money. He was going to whoever gave him the most.
Hal trying to shift blame to someone else - who???? It's not like there are any layers between him and Cashman. One of the Tampa mafia might have swayed Hal's thinking, but the decision is ultimately his when it comes to dollars.
went into damage control late afternoon yesterday trying to spin that it wasn't Hal who didn't want to spend 60 million but others in the organization told him not to do it.
No one in america actually believes that. Hal has overruled everyone plenty of times before (like with Rafael Soriano) but all of a sudden now he's going to let others in the organization talk him out of a guy over 10 million dollars?
Exactly. Cashman could have said no and been overruled, in this case he said (or appeared to say) yes and was overruled. Someone else might have counseled against it, but there is no one with veto power over Hal Steinbrenner.
I guess in the end it should surprise no one that a Steinbrenner is Â
He did everything he could to run from it. I one winter of Hank and Hal was pushed into the job by the rest of the family. Maybe it's time for the Steinbrenners to cash out. As long as Dolan isn't the new owner how much worse can it get? If they sell hopefully Levine and Cashman aren't retained.
It's frustrating to think that a differentce of $13M stopped them Â
He did everything he could to run from it. I one winter of Hank and Hal was pushed into the job by the rest of the family. Maybe it's time for the Steinbrenners to cash out. As long as Dolan isn't the new owner how much worse can it get? If they sell hopefully Levine and Cashman aren't retained.
I'd be shocked if they sell. They have the premier franchise in the MLB cartel. It would probably take something like 4 billion. The team prints money. If the Wilpons can hold on to their team then the Steinbrenners can as well.
they love being the owners of the Mets and will do anything to keep the team. It's well known Hal hated being part of the Yankees and wanted nothing to do with running the team. Which might explain why such a smart guy is doing such a shitty job.
tonight when all of the Yankee shills paint a pretty picture of this non-signing. Must miss television!
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
Again, I think the Yankees actually have a decent farm system. But the idea that you have a deep, well-regarded farm system hasn't prevented Boston, or Los Angeles, or Chicago from trying to acquire the absolute best amateur talent, with little or no regard for position and with a willingness to spend big when premium talent is available.
Decent at best, and that is being kind.
RE: The Wilpons are holding on because they love it Â
they love being the owners of the Mets and will do anything to keep the team. It's well known Hal hated being part of the Yankees and wanted nothing to do with running the team. Which might explain why such a smart guy is doing such a shitty job.
He's only doing a shitty job if you care about baseball moves like this. The team is worth at least twice what it was when he took over.
which built value. Otherwise the value of sports franchises mushroomed and they benefited accordingly. The relative worth of the franchise is a function of their winning. If they continue to be mediocre the value will stagnate or at least increase at a lower rate than other pro teams.
That's true, but the Mets built a stadium and have roughly the same Â
My point is that Hal is a bean counter, pure and simple. His dad wasn't. Maybe that's good for the bottom line but it's also a departure from the old days.
George got the politics done. George passed on MSG and started the network. Hal has just been along for the ride since 2008. He spent big money that winter and last winter but hasn't done anything to increase the value of the Yankees. All he's done so far is take some cash out of YES for the family.
RE: That's true, but the Mets built a stadium and have roughly the same Â
My point is that Hal is a bean counter, pure and simple. His dad wasn't. Maybe that's good for the bottom line but it's also a departure from the old days.
They're certainly not incompatible though. George bought the franchise for a relative pittance and they were worth many times that when he died, but the greatest capital appreciation occurred when they were consistently winning. The true ownership decisions that the Steinbrothers have made since George's passing regarding personnel have been financially stupid and had little impact on winning.
the funny thing is that Hank was the one who wanted to be in charge Â
100% tax. Will cost them total of 60 mil
It's a shame the Mets didn't even seriously consider making a bid for this guy, but I think Mets fans are used to cheap ownership at this point.
Plus $30m in tax=$60m
In other words they suck. They are old, decrepit and over priced.
The same people who decided it was a good idea to give a 37 year-old 45 million don't get pats on the back for "financial sanity".
But instead we get to see fat, overpaid, old, and crooked has beens.
Another year where the Yankees will not get a dime from me.
I feel the same way, you can't proclaim not signing free agents to get younger then have one of the premier young players at your disposal for just cash while owning the most lucrative team and network in baseball. Them claim fiscal sanity about why you dont him and let him go to the hated rival. I won't give a dollar to them this season or for the future. FU Hal.
I am stunned and utterly dissapointed in the direction of this team. This whole offseason was a big fat F without getting Moncada. Im sure we were all dying for the re-signing of Stephen Drew and Chase Headley smh.
Cant believe we will have to go through the struggle to win 84 games a year for the next 3 or more years while the powerhouse red sox with their loaded boat of prospects and excellent offseason makes the Yankees their bitch.
This X1000
whatever, I didnt think baseball in February would get my blood pressure up...but losing Moncada to the Red Sox not the Dodgers of all teams has gotten me heated, he to me was the centerpiece of this entire offseason.
How the hell is this Cashman's fault? He raved about Moncada, and he's not the guy who controls the dollars.
How is this Cashman's fault??
I am optimistic and believe Bogaerts is much better than his total numbers showed last year. The lows were very low but his highs for a rookie were very good. A core of Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, Castillo,and Moncada should be decent. Pitching...who knows.
In other words they suck. They are old, decrepit and over priced.
There is no salary cap in baseball. If they wanted the guy, they could have signed him, no matter what contracts they had out there. After all, Jeter came off the books this season. Apparently, the baseball side did not think Moncada was worth it after conducting several workouts with him.
All I said is they had a better off-season than the Bluejays.
the Sox added Hanley, Sandoval, Justin Masterson, Moncada, Porcello, Ogando, Wade Miley - all guys who will play or start for them in 2015 except Moncada who is now a top 5 prospect in baseball,
that is better than Toronto's off-season.
So you are ok with losing for another 3-4 years? Anyway, you sign prospects now let them develop and in a year or 2 you are ready to win.
Agree completely. The "Yankee fan since 1996" crowd has no idea what an embarrassment he was. Just watch Seinfeld. Larry David was a riot ranting and raving like him.
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a new 10 year deal when he had no other suitors. They are stuck until they get rid of that contract. And CC, Texiera as well. And McCann and Ellsbury. And Beltran.
In other words they suck. They are old, decrepit and over priced.
Coming off a 54 home run 156 rbi season. Yeah, he had no suitors, I am sure.
There is no salary cap in baseball. If they wanted the guy, they could have signed him, no matter what contracts they had out there. After all, Jeter came off the books this season. Apparently, the baseball side did not think Moncada was worth it after conducting several workouts with him.
That's right Homer. He opted out (during the WS and pissed off all of baseball). He was not going to get a 10 yr deal from anybody.
If it came down to the Red Sox outbidding us, the Yanks should be ashamed. All the money we've wasted over the years, and now we get gunshy?
Yup Kei Igawa'd
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Steinbrenner legacy. And his flunky Cashman is no better.
I blame everyone. I forgot to put Levine in ther. I have NEVER like Cashman.
How is this Cashman's fault??
So what is your prediction for the Red Sox this year?
7th worst in baseball last year, and according to Greg in LI the only significant addition they made is an A ball player a few years away from the majors.
And their 2015 prediction from Greg in LI is: ________
2. Didn't the Yankees sign a bunch of the top int'l free agents recently?
3. Some of you guys are ridiculous: "My team didn't get the guy I wanted so I'm gonna hold my breath and pout!"
"According to MLB.com, the Yankees signed the top two, three of the top five, four of the top seven, five of the top nine, and eight of the top 20 available prospects. According to Baseball America, they signed one of the top five, three of the top eight, four of the top nine, and six of the top 20 prospects."
Breaking down the Yankees’ record international free agent haul - ( New Window )
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George Steinbrenner amnesia, when those too young or too stupid to remember what he actually was as an owner pretend that nothing bad ever happened when he owned the team.
Agree completely. The "Yankee fan since 1996" crowd has no idea what an embarrassment he was. Just watch Seinfeld. Larry David was a riot ranting and raving like him.
Right - but to make the same mistakes that George made - signing players past their prime, making terrible deals, and overpaying underwhelming talent - is the real issue. The organization should have learned that this is not the way to win.
Overpay by tens of millions + years on contracts instead of investing in a young, talented kid with huge upside (not to mention losing out by what amounts to $6M if they were willing to go to $27M)? Madness.
Can't wait for Michael Kay to pontificate about the Stadium selling out this year while half the fuckin seats are empty.
2. Didn't the Yankees sign a bunch of the top int'l free agents recently?
3. Some of you guys are ridiculous: "My team didn't get the guy I wanted so I'm gonna hold my breath and pout!"
"According to MLB.com, the Yankees signed the top two, three of the top five, four of the top seven, five of the top nine, and eight of the top 20 available prospects. According to Baseball America, they signed one of the top five, three of the top eight, four of the top nine, and six of the top 20 prospects." Breaking down the Yankees’ record international free agent haul - ( New Window )
And that's great, but we're talking about a bunch of 16-17 year olds there. It'll be a long time before those signings start to bear fruit. Moncada is much closer than that.
You'd have to project him as a BA #1 overall prospect to justify that kind of bonus, and from what I can tell he is solidly behind Buxton (#1) and Correa (#1 middle INF). Callis gave him a 65 grade, which would slot him in the #4-13 range on MLB.com's list.
If you can add talent to your team that you otherwise don't have an opportunity to add (no 19 year old FA's are available and you win too much to get top 10 draft picks) the value is irrelevant and you add the player.
2) I may be in the minority on this, but I don't think this is the end of the world. Given their current payroll/tax situation, this is not a no-brainer...especially for a 20 year old.
3) To me, the real value in international FAs is signing a number of cheap deals with the young kids and hoping you hit it with one or two.
Lets face it, this day had to come for the Yankees. They're bogged down with bad contracts and they're paying about $180 million for a team that stinks. They don't need to add any more dead weight.
That said, I'd still rather have a blustery Boss than Hal and the rest of the ownership "team".
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In comment 12148784 Victor in CT said:
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a new 10 year deal when he had no other suitors. They are stuck until they get rid of that contract. And CC, Texiera as well. And McCann and Ellsbury. And Beltran.
In other words they suck. They are old, decrepit and over priced.
Coming off a 54 home run 156 rbi season. Yeah, he had no suitors, I am sure.
There is no salary cap in baseball. If they wanted the guy, they could have signed him, no matter what contracts they had out there. After all, Jeter came off the books this season. Apparently, the baseball side did not think Moncada was worth it after conducting several workouts with him.
That's right Homer. He opted out (during the WS and pissed off all of baseball). He was not going to get a 10 yr deal from anybody.
And btw, A-Rod's payments under that contract have been dropping since 2010, so the Yankees are paying $10 million less that 2010 on that contract. Jeter is off the books. If the Yankees didn't sign Moncada, it wasn't from lack of funds.
Who exactly is their future? The farm system still sucks. They have no idea how to develop players, and they let top prospects go for a couple of bucks, meanwhile they give out 150 (plus luxury tax) million to schmucks like Jacoby Ellsbury,
They have no idea what they are doing. This team has nothing to look forward to.
Stupid fucking Steinbrenners.
I think based on how piss poor the farm system has been for a while we can say what it is. We've heard about talented guys for years and seen next to no results.
Fuck that. All I want from lil Jimmy Dolan is for him to finally just OD on cocaine. What's the sense in trading a bad owner for the very worst owner in professional sports? Dan Snyder wouldn't go cheap, you want him?
Stupid fucking Steinbrenners.
This is the one market they should be cleaning up in and they have passed on every single one.
Don't worry though, they'll sign guys like jacoby ellsbury to 25 million dollar contracts per year.
He's a terrible, terrible owner. It's been clear for a couple years. He has no plan, what so ever. They spend like fucking idiots when they shouldn't, and go cheap when they should spend.
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Dolan own the Yankees than Hal Steinbrenner. He wouldn't go cheap ever. And he couldn't possibly make worse decisions than Hal has made.
Fuck that. All I want from lil Jimmy Dolan is for him to finally just OD on cocaine. What's the sense in trading a bad owner for the very worst owner in professional sports? Dan Snyder wouldn't go cheap, you want him?
Put them in a sport with no salary cap and you'd see far different results. They wouldn't give a shit about luxury tax. Would Dolan be a great mlb owner? No, but he'd be better than jerkoff Hal Steinbrenner
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
This rebuild is going to take much longer than it ever should have.
Cashman is a fucking pupper for the Steinbrenners. He doesn't make these decisions, the dumb owners do.
He needs to go, too. But nothing is going to change as long as idiot Hal is in charge
That said, I'd still rather have a blustery Boss than Hal and the rest of the ownership "team".
Cashman has been the GM since 1998 and was given more control over personnel matters since 2005, when he threatened to go to the Nationals. That is also when he first started yakking about his plans to preserve prospects. We are now in year 10 of his "plan."
Yeah. Maybe he should sell to Art Moreno or Dan Snyder. Now those guys know how to spend and win.
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That's the thing. I still don't know how much of these moves (and non-moves) are Hall and Co. or Cashman. Either way, it means it's time for Cashman to go. If these are part of his plans, then he deserves to be fired. If he is still being handcuffed by management, then let him go or better yet, he should leave.
Cashman is a fucking pupper for the Steinbrenners. He doesn't make these decisions, the dumb owners do.
He needs to go, too. But nothing is going to change as long as idiot Hal is in charge
We can call him an idiot. Clearly he is not. But what is also clear is that his priority is on making money and not winning games and that's different than his Dad.
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really needs to sell the team. They have zero future and it's only going to get worse.
Yeah. Maybe he should sell to Art Moreno or Dan Snyder. Now those guys know how to spend and win.
Yeah, comparing a league where there's no salary cap and one where their is is always smart.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
Money to burn eh? Cant wait til they make a deal for Cliff Lee or hey let's sign a Marlon Byrd to a 4 year deal in the offseason. I have no faith in the decision making brain trust, and I'd rather fail with upside and potential as at least those kids give a shit and want to prove something.
Everyone considers Daniel Snyder an idiot around here, Jerry Jones an idiot.
Yet those two guys are self made billionaires.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
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They have money to burn - they could have done this with only financial penalty, to help shore up a farm system that isn't exactly well regarded.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
Money to burn eh? Cant wait til they make a deal for Cliff Lee or hey let's sign a Marlon Byrd to a 4 year deal in the offseason. I have no faith in the decision making brain trust, and I'd rather fail with upside and potential as at least those kids give a shit and want to prove something.
Haha, the Yanks have been after Cliff Lee for a decade, of course we'll finally overpay for him when he's all done and nobody else wants him
They would have been better off lighting 80 million dollars on fire than signing jacoby ellsbury to a 150 plus luxury tax contract.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Look at the contracts they've given out to old players recently. What's a better use of funds, giving it to a guy who is old and washed up, or a guy who has star potential?
I'd rather give 60 million to a potential star than 60 million to Carlos Beltran.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Matt, this is the Yankees. Hal's got the difference between what he offered and what Moncada got in his couch cushions. We didn't lose the guy because we were practicing financial constraint, or because we didn't think he was worth it. We missed him because we were trying to get value, when clearly we needed him enough to justify overpaying for potential not production
I like the approach Cashman had on taking a number of flyers on guys who may still have something left in the tank even if it has a high bust rate (Rios, Nick Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Ibanez, Beltran, Ichiro), but the problem is when the majority of the lineup is comprised of these guys, because you never then get the youngsters game experience and a chance to develop to see what they have.
I also think part of this is the Steinbrenner children not knowing what they are doing or what they want to do-- and it's probably the result of "scionology" (http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/03/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-church-of-scionology/)
I don't know Moncada from a hole in the wall-- so perhaps it's better off that they don't get him. I just wish that the Yankees would stop hedging and would commit to a business strategy.
http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/03/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-church-of-scionology/ - ( New Window )
They have signed so many shitheads recently. Chase headley is another one
The Yankees were already locked out of the int'l FA market for next year, they went over their budget and so did the red sox before they ever signed Moncada. Knowing that is even more of a reason to sign him
.330 OBP. 70 rbi's hitting out of the 3rd spot.
If that's a good year for him, then his contract is even worse than I thought.
It looks like the Yankees actually have a budget. Not a payroll/luxury tax budget but a spending budget. They took the $ savings from A-Rod last year and spent it on IFA. Which would be all well and good if they didn't have the biggest revenue in the game (for now) and the highest ticket prices in the game. I understand not wanting to spend 150% of your next closest competitor, but to be spending 80% of what the Dodgers do with their revenue is pretty unreasonable in light of the cost of a Stadium experience.
You're not. Yankees fans are acting like babies on this thread. You'd think that the Red Sox just poached a 27 year old Jeter off their roster.
Yes, indeed...Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps...Bobby Meacham as our SS of the future...Clay Parker and Chuck Cary as our starting rotation of the future...Steve Trout...we could go on all day
Might be a good year for a guy making 9 million dollars a year. Not 22.
He should be making 13 million or so a year, instead he's making 22 and hitting 3rd.
If he's hitting 3rd again this year, our lineup is going to be a train wreck once again.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
I'd love 1992 again but the yanks are a brand so they have to field a team of stars... Bullshit. That line of thinking will keep this team away from October for a long time.
And that's no surprise.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
Lol at those "questions". Come on.
And that's no surprise.
we'll give you ellsbury for free right now. Just pay the contract.
The Yankees signing ellsbury made zero sense. They have ellsbury already on the roster. Gardner and ellsbury had basically the same season last year. Ellsbury was overpaid by 10 million per year
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
They didn't plunder Latin America, they made some nice, reasonable-priced signings prior to the IFA binge. All well and good. And if you're a small or mid-market team making some judicious amateur signings is a good idea. But when you're the fucking Yankees, and you wonder why your attendance is slowly declining and your stopgaps aren't quite enough, you shouldn't sit out every premium Latin American signing over a five or six year period and then tell your fans how committed you are to winning.
Exactly one year in his career has he been one of the better players in the game.
Every other year, he's been a pretty good player. It's not just injuries that hold him back. He played 149 games last year. And he was just "pretty good". Far from worth 22 million
Ellsbury was a 3.6 WAR player, meaning he outperformed his contract last season. He is far from the 3rd worst contract in baseball. Melvin "Dont Call me BJ" Upton is still owed 46 million, and hasnt been positive WAR in either of his first two seasons. Ryan Howard is owed $60mm and is so bad that there are reports that no one will take him even if Philly eats the whole contract. Josh Hamilton is 33 and very hurt, and is owed $25.4, 32.4, and 32.4 in the next three years, respectively. Ellsbury doesnt have a mega bad deal -- there is a pretty decent chance he outperforms it for at least half the years.
Re others' comments: RBIs and spot in the batting order are pretty ridiculous grounds to criticize a guy on. Neither have all that much to do with the player. A 16 HR 39 SB OF who can defend is a good thing. Crawford is owed $83mm.
Brett Gardner had a higher WAR last year than Ellsbury did, at least according to ESPN
I feel like we need to step back from the ledge a bit here and realize that missing out on Moncada isn't the end of the world. Also, I feel like Yankees fans have been very quick to completely give up on the signings of Ellsbury and Beltran - but that's another story.
What is the hope with this franchise right now? They have bad contracts galore and continue giving them out, they have a shit farm system. They have no one ready to come up that can really be a top player.
The organization is in terrible shape no matter what way you look at it. It's going to get significantly worse before it has a chance to get better. And i'd be fine with it getting significantly worse if they actually had a plan on how to build it back up, but they don't.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 · 2h 2 hours ago
#Redsox -- like #Cubs b4 them -- see hitting deficiency and are accumulating young, potential impact bats
Mook: Gardner's production is irrelevant to whether Ellsbury is overpaid. If Gardner was paid $30 million, does that make Ellsbury's contract a good deal? You can argue whether they're duplicative players, but on an absolute basis the contracts are unrelated. Didnt Gardner also get extended a year early as well? Players take a discount for getting that early piece of mind.
I'm hoping for Moncada to be a bust.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 · 2h 2 hours ago
#Redsox -- like #Cubs b4 them -- see hitting deficiency and are accumulating young, potential impact bats
This I agree with. 800 OPS is star territory these days. It is fucking sad. Though I dont know whether it is few hitting talents (in which case you have to stock up) or just an adjustment in the game where good hitters do worse because pitching has gotten so good (and in particular, guys throw so hard).
I was in favor of signing Ellsbury then and like him as a player still. But, I HATE signing him for what they did. It is just a stupid deal, especially when a deal like this prevents them from spending just one year later.
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trouble is, he rarely makes it through a full season healthy
Exactly one year in his career has he been one of the better players in the game.
Every other year, he's been a pretty good player. It's not just injuries that hold him back. He played 149 games last year. And he was just "pretty good". Far from worth 22 million
Ellsbury played 149, but he was playing hurt for much of the season. He was scorching hot early on, then once the dings set in (wasnt it a bad calf muscle in 14?) he slid into the "pretty good" category...which isn't close to worth his deal.
I'm not arguing with you that we overpaid for him, just stating my opinion, he's borderline elite, for those brief stretches when he isn't hurt
Not even close - Ellsbury got a 7 year deal. THAT'S the real sin.
Ellsbury hitting #3 isn't his fault. It is the fault of bad roster design and also based on injuries leaving them little choice. But, he is a #1 or #2 hitter batting out of position.
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the troubling signing I keep in mind is the signing of Kevin Youkilis. Giving him $12MM was a much greater sin IMO than the signing of Ellsbury.
Not even close - Ellsbury got a 7 year deal. THAT'S the real sin.
In Ellsbury's case you are at least betting on a player to be a big part of your future. In Youk's case you are spending money on a player whose best days are clearly in his past.
I disagree with the latter approach to managing a team, and while I can criticize the overspending and overcommitment to the former, I can live with it. Spending on over-the-hill players is bad when a star has outlived his contract (as Ellsbury no doubt will do at some point), but it's worse when they are at that point when you signed them to begin with.
To make matters worse look at the opportunities missed when signing Youk.
And I disagree with Mook about valuing Ellsbury's production as a 3-hitter, but only because I don't think Ellsbury is or should be a 3-hitter, and the reason he is has more to do with shitty roster construction than his fitness for the role.
They should have torn it down, went crazy in IFA signing anyone they could, accumulate a ton of good young players, and gone from there.
Still, I think I'd rather have Ellsbury for his deal than Cano for his. Cano is a far better hitter but that contract he signed was ludicrous and is exactly the type of contract the Yankees needed to avoid. The Yanks are struggling to deal with A-Rod's contract. Signing Cano was just asking for a repeat of that situation, especially considering the PEDs rumors surrounding him. Yanks wanted no part of that.
Beltran/McCann/Teixeira... THAT'S WHO YOU SHOULD BE BLAMING, far more than Ellsbury. Those guys are the reason we didn't get anywhere last year.
Teixeira gave us a great year in '09 where he was in the MVP mix, and he seems like a solid dude (although he gives off a bit of a politician vibe). But outside of that he might be one of my least favorite Yankees in a while. Especially since he was garbage in the '09 post-season when A-Rod had to carry his ass.
A-Rod is A-Rod. But Teixiera is the guy I'm just getting angrier and angrier at as every single season passes. He's ben a bum but he's getting paid like a superstar.
If the Beltran/McCann/Teixeira trio plays better than last year and our pitching staff stays healthy (I'm looking at you Tanaka), we could make a push for the post-season.
The thing is it is penny-wise and pound foolish in terms of their bottom line. You can cut the budget but if you're not consistently competitive it's going to be a net loss because you lose stretch and postseason revenue year in and year out, and capital appreciation/maintenance owes in large part to their status as a winner.
They offered 25 million. If they didn't love him they dont even offer that.
Second, the previous signings of CC, Arod, and Tex are absolutely killing them right now. If you want to throw Beltran and Ellsburry in there too, I get that, but that really isn't the problem.
I believe that the brass realizes that a rebuild is necessary (and yes they should have realized this much sooner) and are finally starting to do so. It seems obvious to me that they are waiting for CC, Arod and Tex to come off the books, hope that the farm starts producing some major league talent by then, and will then spend big again in free agency if the opportunity is there. I think this is the right move but certainly would have signed Moncada.
The free agent signings (and lack thereof of big ticket guys) and trades this offseason all point to the above direction. I have no problem with the Headley or Miller signings either and could care less about the Drew signing (he is nothing more than insurance if Refsynder doesn't pan out and/or buys some time).
What is killing baseball in general, and heavily hurting the Yankee veterans who are set in there ways (McCann, Tex, for example) is the heavy use of the shift but that's a different conversation.
MookGiants : 12:16 pm : link : reply
what the Yankees should be doing. Instead they are sitting there with their thumb up their ass with a garbage farm system and continuing to hand out awful contracts on the major league level.
#Redsox -- like #Cubs b4 them -- see hitting deficiency and are accumulating young, potential impact bats
"The Yankees were assigned a $2.2M signing pool for international players this summer, but they blew right through that. Based on what we know, they will have to pay approximately $12.31M in taxes for going over their pool, and the final number will be higher than that since it is inevitable several signings have yet to be reported. Between bonuses and penalties, the current total payout is $26.82M, or thereabouts.... all of the team’s notable signings are position players."
"There are always a lot of prospect rankings around this time of year, and Kiley McDaniel has come up with an absurdly detailed Yankees list over at FanGraphs. McDaniel ranked his top 35, then kept going with mild scouting reports for another 30 or so others in the Yankees system. “Tampa Bay is the only other team with close to this kind of depth,” McDaniel wrote, “but the Yankees have two top-end talents (RHP Luis Severino and RF Aaron Judge) that the Rays can’t match, which helps separate the Bombers from Tampa Bay and other deep systems. Right now, I have the Yankees as the 10th best system in baseball, but with the bulk of high upside young talent and five of the top six prospects likely returning to next year’s list making it better than 50/50 that they’ll be even higher next year.”"
The team with the second-highest payroll in the sport and was the most aggressive in the international market this past off-season shouldn't be accused of being cheap. I don't think their minor-league system is nearly as bad as some contend, and I think there IS a plan in place to get younger and more athletic while shedding bad contracts. I think Cashman had a very good off-season this year, but we'll have to see how it turns out. I'm not terribly optimistic about the 2015 season, but I think things are moving in the right direction...
Minor league notes and links: Fresh batch of Yankees prospect rankings - ( New Window )
But Moncada's bonus was more than the whole of their 7/2 spending binge, with the penalty more than twice as much. Ditto the price of Tomas, of Castillo, likely of Olivera.
SO SPEND BIG ON THE KIDS AND SET UP THE NEXT GENERATION. That's what they did with the rest of the IFA class. I just don't get losing out here. Weird place to be cheap.
So there's at least one sensible Yankee fan on this thread. I'm as disappointed as anyone, thought Moncada fit the Yankees needs perfectly. And with tons of upside. the Yankees have already unloaded on signing intl fa's, not like they haven't made a major effort to replenish talent on the farm. And not like they sat out on the moncada bidding.
But, if that wasn't the issue so much, as settling on the final amount by a couple of million, then there is a problem.
I'm sure Michael Kay will be critical of the decision and will challenge Cashman on it.
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
FOAD
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tonight when all of the Yankee shills paint a pretty picture of this non-signing. Must miss television!
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
Again, I think the Yankees actually have a decent farm system. But the idea that you have a deep, well-regarded farm system hasn't prevented Boston, or Los Angeles, or Chicago from trying to acquire the absolute best amateur talent, with little or no regard for position and with a willingness to spend big when premium talent is available.
Their recent abstinence from the Cuban market aside, I actually think it makes more sense to sign more of these long-shot prospects than putting all the eggs in a single basket. However, knowing the front office's ability to judge talent, I am betting on Moncada instead.
Now, where I take issue, as others have pointed out, is why not go with a guy like Refsneyder over Drew to see what you have during this process. There answer is likely that they don't think he is ready defensively and Drew is relatively cheap in the interim. Again, I don't like this approach at the position but I think they want to make sure they are covered and if Refsneyder beats him out in spring training or later in the year then great.
My biggest issue with not signing Moncada is that if they liked him enough to shell out $25 million them its silly to lose him over $6.5 million ($13 with tax). They piss away that kind of money all the time on garbage and they can't touch INT free agency for 2 years anyway.
Now, where I take issue, as others have pointed out, is why not go with a guy like Refsneyder over Drew to see what you have during this process. There answer is likely that they don't think he is ready defensively and Drew is relatively cheap in the interim. Again, I don't like this approach at the position but I think they want to make sure they are covered and if Refsneyder beats him out in spring training or later in the year then great.
My biggest issue with not signing Moncada is that if they liked him enough to shell out $25 million them its silly to lose him over $6.5 million ($13 with tax). They piss away that kind of money all the time on garbage and they can't touch INT free agency for 2 years anyway.
If they believed they were 2-3 years away from competing for a title they 100% sign Moncada, never sign Headley. They would have a long term view, and they are still caught in between. They have no plan, that much is clear. They had a plan of 189 million and then blew that up so they could sign guys like Beltran and Ellsbury. They change their plans monthly.
I firmly believe Hal put his stupid foot down on what they would pay Marcada despite Cashmans plebes and as I said it makes no sense to go to $25 million and stop $6 million short of what it woukd have taken. Nobody is knocking on the door to play third from the minors thus they signed Headly. I have no beef with that signing at that price and years.
I firmly believe Hal put his stupid foot down on what they would pay Marcada despite Cashmans plebes and as I said it makes no sense to go to $25 million and stop $6 million short of what it woukd have taken. Nobody is knocking on the door to play third from the minors thus they signed Headly. I have no beef with that signing at that price and years.
Part of the problem I believe is Hal won't simply let Cashman run the team and just sign the checks. If he did that they'd be much better off imo. We never really know who is making what decision, and the lack of a real plan is probably because cashman and the owners are rarely on the same page. So you have some moves that follow cashman's plan, some that follow what the owners want. That can't work, not when Hal pinches pennies in some spots and then spends wildly in others.
Moncada's agent: “I thought the Yankees would have pushed harder at the end." Me too. Me too… http://nyti.ms/1GooXsO [/img]
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
That would be a strategy.
Yankees fans have a right to be pissed. sometimes there are decisions that get made in the FO you don't agree with, so you state your case, but in the end you give the FO the benefit of the doubt (like you have a choice).
This does not seem like one of them. I don't know how to describe this. Is there a defense? Has Cashman or anyone said anything about it?
No one in america actually believes that. Hal has overruled everyone plenty of times before (like with Rafael Soriano) but all of a sudden now he's going to let others in the organization talk him out of a guy over 10 million dollars?
The agent said it was 100% about money. He was going to whoever gave him the most.
No one in america actually believes that. Hal has overruled everyone plenty of times before (like with Rafael Soriano) but all of a sudden now he's going to let others in the organization talk him out of a guy over 10 million dollars?
Exactly. Cashman could have said no and been overruled, in this case he said (or appeared to say) yes and was overruled. Someone else might have counseled against it, but there is no one with veto power over Hal Steinbrenner.
Hoipefully they land another Cuban top prospect before 6/15.
I'd be shocked if they sell. They have the premier franchise in the MLB cartel. It would probably take something like 4 billion. The team prints money. If the Wilpons can hold on to their team then the Steinbrenners can as well.
Held a seance to ask his dad what he said, and Ghost of Big Stein told him to stay firm at $27 mill.
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In comment 12149601 TheMick7 said:
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tonight when all of the Yankee shills paint a pretty picture of this non-signing. Must miss television!
I'm sure they'll talk about how good the Yankees farm system is, too. Can't forget about that line of BS.
Again, I think the Yankees actually have a decent farm system. But the idea that you have a deep, well-regarded farm system hasn't prevented Boston, or Los Angeles, or Chicago from trying to acquire the absolute best amateur talent, with little or no regard for position and with a willingness to spend big when premium talent is available.
Decent at best, and that is being kind.
He's only doing a shitty job if you care about baseball moves like this. The team is worth at least twice what it was when he took over.
My point is that Hal is a bean counter, pure and simple. His dad wasn't. Maybe that's good for the bottom line but it's also a departure from the old days.
My point is that Hal is a bean counter, pure and simple. His dad wasn't. Maybe that's good for the bottom line but it's also a departure from the old days.
They're certainly not incompatible though. George bought the franchise for a relative pittance and they were worth many times that when he died, but the greatest capital appreciation occurred when they were consistently winning. The true ownership decisions that the Steinbrothers have made since George's passing regarding personnel have been financially stupid and had little impact on winning.
It's going to be a painful season.