That's the thing. I still don't know how much of these moves (and non-moves) are Hall and Co. or Cashman. Either way, it means it's time for Cashman to go. If these are part of his plans, then he deserves to be fired. If he is still being handcuffed by management, then let him go or better yet, he should leave.
Cashman is a fucking pupper for the Steinbrenners. He doesn't make these decisions, the dumb owners do.
He needs to go, too. But nothing is going to change as long as idiot Hal is in charge
We can call him an idiot. Clearly he is not. But what is also clear is that his priority is on making money and not winning games and that's different than his Dad.
They have money to burn - they could have done this with only financial penalty, to help shore up a farm system that isn't exactly well regarded.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
Money to burn eh? Cant wait til they make a deal for Cliff Lee or hey let's sign a Marlon Byrd to a 4 year deal in the offseason. I have no faith in the decision making brain trust, and I'd rather fail with upside and potential as at least those kids give a shit and want to prove something.
The problem is this lack of a plan has been an issue for more than a decade. Since about 2003 or so, they have been getting older and older and relied on older players more and more. As the players from the 4 WS teams began aging and/or retiring, there just wasn't a clear plan to keep the dynasty going. They went to the old standby of plugging in other aging players. they got mostly guys who were good enough to keep them competitive during the season, but not a team that could consistently win deep into the playoffs.
is that this is burning a lot for a 20 year old that is not likely to be in the majors for at least another year and a half. That is an exorbitant amount with little immediate return and then the likelihood of an even bigger contract when he gets up. if it doesn't turn into a huge contract, that just means he was a huge and expensive bust.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
RE: RE: How can anyone possibly think this is a good thing? Â
They have money to burn - they could have done this with only financial penalty, to help shore up a farm system that isn't exactly well regarded.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
Money to burn eh? Cant wait til they make a deal for Cliff Lee or hey let's sign a Marlon Byrd to a 4 year deal in the offseason. I have no faith in the decision making brain trust, and I'd rather fail with upside and potential as at least those kids give a shit and want to prove something.
Haha, the Yanks have been after Cliff Lee for a decade, of course we'll finally overpay for him when he's all done and nobody else wants him
Jacoby Ellsbury 150 million (plus luxury tax). After that asinine contract I dont want to ever hear them say they dont have enough money for a guy like Moncada.
They would have been better off lighting 80 million dollars on fire than signing jacoby ellsbury to a 150 plus luxury tax contract.
might as well cue up the reactionary overpay of Hector Olivera now. The less talented, older, more injury prone option who the Yankees will see immediately fill a role (attempt to put fans in chairs) than the more long term approach of Moncada.
Not the willingness to spend so much as what they actually decide to spend on. I hated that Ellsbury deal with a burning passion the moment I read about it, and I hate it even more now.
RE: The problem I have with thinking they have money to burn Â
is that this is burning a lot for a 20 year old that is not likely to be in the majors for at least another year and a half. That is an exorbitant amount with little immediate return and then the likelihood of an even bigger contract when he gets up. if it doesn't turn into a huge contract, that just means he was a huge and expensive bust.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Look at the contracts they've given out to old players recently. What's a better use of funds, giving it to a guy who is old and washed up, or a guy who has star potential?
I'd rather give 60 million to a potential star than 60 million to Carlos Beltran.
RE: The problem I have with thinking they have money to burn Â
is that this is burning a lot for a 20 year old that is not likely to be in the majors for at least another year and a half. That is an exorbitant amount with little immediate return and then the likelihood of an even bigger contract when he gets up. if it doesn't turn into a huge contract, that just means he was a huge and expensive bust.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Matt, this is the Yankees. Hal's got the difference between what he offered and what Moncada got in his couch cushions. We didn't lose the guy because we were practicing financial constraint, or because we didn't think he was worth it. We missed him because we were trying to get value, when clearly we needed him enough to justify overpaying for potential not production
They pay Gardner $12.5M and decide, in a relative same time frame, decide to pay Elssbury $10M more per year. That is inasnae. They are essentially the same player, minus Ellsbury's 2011 season, which is not going to ever be repeated. If they wanted to overpay for Ellsbury, $15M would have been reasonable. $22M per just makes no sense.
rosters, those were the good old days. right before the key trades of players like Kelly for O'Neil. The days of Scott K coming up and Bob Wickman, Sterling Hitchcock. Just acquired Charlie Hayes to play 3rd. Jessie Barfield. sigh That was right before all the magic happened.
are doing. They can't seems to do a complete rebuild because of the immediate cost of losing games so they are still giving out big contracts. Yet, it's as if they have been running a ponzi scheme-- trade away all assets to pay for past performance of shiny toys who don't yeild the necessary results and it leaves the team's position in shambles.
I like the approach Cashman had on taking a number of flyers on guys who may still have something left in the tank even if it has a high bust rate (Rios, Nick Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Ibanez, Beltran, Ichiro), but the problem is when the majority of the lineup is comprised of these guys, because you never then get the youngsters game experience and a chance to develop to see what they have.
I also think part of this is the Steinbrenner children not knowing what they are doing or what they want to do-- and it's probably the result of "scionology" (http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/03/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-church-of-scionology/)
If I am correct about this, is they're locked out of the int'l FA market for the next year or two, so they could fold that budget into this years. Isn't that right? I'm sure that is how it is with the Red Sox too.
instead of signing schmucks like Stephen Drew to contracts (believe he has gotten 10 million or so in last 2 years plus tax) take that money and spend it on a guy like Moncada.
They have signed so many shitheads recently. Chase headley is another one
The Yankees were already locked out of IFAs for 2 years Â
If I am correct about this, is they're locked out of the int'l FA market for the next year or two, so they could fold that budget into this years. Isn't that right? I'm sure that is how it is with the Red Sox too.
The Yankees were already locked out of the int'l FA market for next year, they went over their budget and so did the red sox before they ever signed Moncada. Knowing that is even more of a reason to sign him
missing something on Ellsbury? He all accounts, he had a good year last year, and the concensus is that he's going to have another good year this year. Is it just worry about the backend of the contract? Just about every big FA contract signed recently is going to be a poor value in the last few years...
contract. I think he is a very underrated player and I think the future value of mlb contracts with the new TV deals that teams are getting make it more reasonable. I'm just not sure how wise it was to offer Ellsbury the deal if the team's braintrust was giong to keep playing "toe in the water, toe out of the water" with their decisions.
no options, he's very tradeable after a year or two if they eat a little money. Jagielo is probably two years away anyway, and Andujar at least that far.
It looks like the Yankees actually have a budget. Not a payroll/luxury tax budget but a spending budget. They took the $ savings from A-Rod last year and spent it on IFA. Which would be all well and good if they didn't have the biggest revenue in the game (for now) and the highest ticket prices in the game. I understand not wanting to spend 150% of your next closest competitor, but to be spending 80% of what the Dodgers do with their revenue is pretty unreasonable in light of the cost of a Stadium experience.
missing something on Ellsbury? He all accounts, he had a good year last year, and the concensus is that he's going to have another good year this year. Is it just worry about the backend of the contract? Just about every big FA contract signed recently is going to be a poor value in the last few years...
You're not. Yankees fans are acting like babies on this thread. You'd think that the Red Sox just poached a 27 year old Jeter off their roster.
Ellsbury is a decent player who is grossly overpaid Â
rosters, those were the good old days. right before the key trades of players like Kelly for O'Neil. The days of Scott K coming up and Bob Wickman, Sterling Hitchcock. Just acquired Charlie Hayes to play 3rd. Jessie Barfield. sigh That was right before all the magic happened.
Yes, indeed...Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps...Bobby Meacham as our SS of the future...Clay Parker and Chuck Cary as our starting rotation of the future...Steve Trout...we could go on all day
Refsnyder will be ready in 1, maybe less. And it's not like the Yankees didn't plunder Latin America before Moncada. See: SS Jorge Mateo, SS Angel Aguilar, C Luis Torrens, OF Leonardo Molina, 3B Miguel Andujar.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
If they went full rebuild, completely blew everything up and built the team up from within. I have no problems holding on to some of the older dead weight types that can't be moved ( CC, Tex, Arod etc) but this middle ground shit is just brutal. I hate this team I hate that there only a 2-3 guys that came up from the farm... No identity with this team at all.
I'd love 1992 again but the yanks are a brand so they have to field a team of stars... Bullshit. That line of thinking will keep this team away from October for a long time.
was an overpay, but one I wish the Mets made. I think when you're talking free agents, unless you get a guy on a 1-year show me deal, they're frequently overpays.
And that's no surprise.
RE: Moncada isn't going to be ready for 1-2 years Â
Refsnyder will be ready in 1, maybe less. And it's not like the Yankees didn't plunder Latin America before Moncada. See: SS Jorge Mateo, SS Angel Aguilar, C Luis Torrens, OF Leonardo Molina, 3B Miguel Andujar.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
was an overpay, but one I wish the Mets made. I think when you're talking free agents, unless you get a guy on a 1-year show me deal, they're frequently overpays.
And that's no surprise.
we'll give you ellsbury for free right now. Just pay the contract.
The Yankees signing ellsbury made zero sense. They have ellsbury already on the roster. Gardner and ellsbury had basically the same season last year. Ellsbury was overpaid by 10 million per year
when healthy, Ellsbury is one of the better players in the game Â
Refsnyder will be ready in 1, maybe less. And it's not like the Yankees didn't plunder Latin America before Moncada. See: SS Jorge Mateo, SS Angel Aguilar, C Luis Torrens, OF Leonardo Molina, 3B Miguel Andujar.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
They didn't plunder Latin America, they made some nice, reasonable-priced signings prior to the IFA binge. All well and good. And if you're a small or mid-market team making some judicious amateur signings is a good idea. But when you're the fucking Yankees, and you wonder why your attendance is slowly declining and your stopgaps aren't quite enough, you shouldn't sit out every premium Latin American signing over a five or six year period and then tell your fans how committed you are to winning.
looking back, I'm amazed they actually signed Tanaka Â
trouble is, he rarely makes it through a full season healthy
Exactly one year in his career has he been one of the better players in the game.
Every other year, he's been a pretty good player. It's not just injuries that hold him back. He played 149 games last year. And he was just "pretty good". Far from worth 22 million
Ellsbury moves to the 2nd worst contract in baseball behind Pujols.
Ellsbury was a 3.6 WAR player, meaning he outperformed his contract last season. He is far from the 3rd worst contract in baseball. Melvin "Dont Call me BJ" Upton is still owed 46 million, and hasnt been positive WAR in either of his first two seasons. Ryan Howard is owed $60mm and is so bad that there are reports that no one will take him even if Philly eats the whole contract. Josh Hamilton is 33 and very hurt, and is owed $25.4, 32.4, and 32.4 in the next three years, respectively. Ellsbury doesnt have a mega bad deal -- there is a pretty decent chance he outperforms it for at least half the years.
Re others' comments: RBIs and spot in the batting order are pretty ridiculous grounds to criticize a guy on. Neither have all that much to do with the player. A 16 HR 39 SB OF who can defend is a good thing. Crawford is owed $83mm.
Recent World Series winners have started guys like Joe Panik, Marco Scutaro, Ryan Theriot and Freddy Sanchez - generally no-power, high .200s veterans who get the job done with little flash.
I feel like we need to step back from the ledge a bit here and realize that missing out on Moncada isn't the end of the world. Also, I feel like Yankees fans have been very quick to completely give up on the signings of Ellsbury and Beltran - but that's another story.
He's a pretty good player making superstar money Â
He's a player whose game is based almost entirely on speed, he's 31 years old already and they're on the hook for six more seasons. It's an awful contract.
it's just another sign that Hal has no fucking clue what he's doing. That's what the most troubling thing is. Look at the decisions he's been making, he doesnt get the benefit of the doubt, because most of the things he's done have been a complete disaster.
What is the hope with this franchise right now? They have bad contracts galore and continue giving them out, they have a shit farm system. They have no one ready to come up that can really be a top player.
The organization is in terrible shape no matter what way you look at it. It's going to get significantly worse before it has a chance to get better. And i'd be fine with it getting significantly worse if they actually had a plan on how to build it back up, but they don't.
what the Yankees should be doing. Instead they are sitting there with their thumb up their ass with a garbage farm system and continuing to hand out awful contracts on the major league level.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 · 2h 2 hours ago
#Redsox -- like #Cubs b4 them -- see hitting deficiency and are accumulating young, potential impact bats
Not gonna pick on Ellsbury. He's a good player. What bothered me was Â
overpaying for him instead of overpaying for Cano. Neither guy is worth the contract but I don't understand the choice to overpay for Ellsbury over Cano. I could have understood not overpaying for either too.
Yeah. Maybe he should sell to Art Moreno or Dan Snyder. Now those guys know how to spend and win.
Quote:
That's the thing. I still don't know how much of these moves (and non-moves) are Hall and Co. or Cashman. Either way, it means it's time for Cashman to go. If these are part of his plans, then he deserves to be fired. If he is still being handcuffed by management, then let him go or better yet, he should leave.
Cashman is a fucking pupper for the Steinbrenners. He doesn't make these decisions, the dumb owners do.
He needs to go, too. But nothing is going to change as long as idiot Hal is in charge
We can call him an idiot. Clearly he is not. But what is also clear is that his priority is on making money and not winning games and that's different than his Dad.
Quote:
really needs to sell the team. They have zero future and it's only going to get worse.
Yeah. Maybe he should sell to Art Moreno or Dan Snyder. Now those guys know how to spend and win.
Yeah, comparing a league where there's no salary cap and one where their is is always smart.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
Money to burn eh? Cant wait til they make a deal for Cliff Lee or hey let's sign a Marlon Byrd to a 4 year deal in the offseason. I have no faith in the decision making brain trust, and I'd rather fail with upside and potential as at least those kids give a shit and want to prove something.
Everyone considers Daniel Snyder an idiot around here, Jerry Jones an idiot.
Yet those two guys are self made billionaires.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Quote:
They have money to burn - they could have done this with only financial penalty, to help shore up a farm system that isn't exactly well regarded.
At best, this isn't a horrible move. And that's the best case scenario.
George Steinbrenner is definitely remembered in a very positive light compared to reality, but the guy did want to win, he just wasn't always straight on the best way to do that. I don't think Hal gives a flying fuck, he just looks at the bottom line and goes from there.
Money to burn eh? Cant wait til they make a deal for Cliff Lee or hey let's sign a Marlon Byrd to a 4 year deal in the offseason. I have no faith in the decision making brain trust, and I'd rather fail with upside and potential as at least those kids give a shit and want to prove something.
Haha, the Yanks have been after Cliff Lee for a decade, of course we'll finally overpay for him when he's all done and nobody else wants him
They would have been better off lighting 80 million dollars on fire than signing jacoby ellsbury to a 150 plus luxury tax contract.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Look at the contracts they've given out to old players recently. What's a better use of funds, giving it to a guy who is old and washed up, or a guy who has star potential?
I'd rather give 60 million to a potential star than 60 million to Carlos Beltran.
Now, I am not in favor of grossly overspending for a veteran just for the sake of it. I said it at the time, Ellsbury was a big mistake. It wasn't a mistake to want him. it was a mistake to pay him what they did, when he is essentially the same player as Gardner.
I think if this type of deal didn't carry the additional $20-30M baggage of the luxury tax, it would be a different story. I think it would still be a lot to pay for a 20 year old, but certainly much more reasonable.
Matt, this is the Yankees. Hal's got the difference between what he offered and what Moncada got in his couch cushions. We didn't lose the guy because we were practicing financial constraint, or because we didn't think he was worth it. We missed him because we were trying to get value, when clearly we needed him enough to justify overpaying for potential not production
I like the approach Cashman had on taking a number of flyers on guys who may still have something left in the tank even if it has a high bust rate (Rios, Nick Johnson, Javier Vazquez, Ibanez, Beltran, Ichiro), but the problem is when the majority of the lineup is comprised of these guys, because you never then get the youngsters game experience and a chance to develop to see what they have.
I also think part of this is the Steinbrenner children not knowing what they are doing or what they want to do-- and it's probably the result of "scionology" (http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/03/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-church-of-scionology/)
I don't know Moncada from a hole in the wall-- so perhaps it's better off that they don't get him. I just wish that the Yankees would stop hedging and would commit to a business strategy.
http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/03/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-church-of-scionology/ - ( New Window )
They have signed so many shitheads recently. Chase headley is another one
The Yankees were already locked out of the int'l FA market for next year, they went over their budget and so did the red sox before they ever signed Moncada. Knowing that is even more of a reason to sign him
.330 OBP. 70 rbi's hitting out of the 3rd spot.
If that's a good year for him, then his contract is even worse than I thought.
It looks like the Yankees actually have a budget. Not a payroll/luxury tax budget but a spending budget. They took the $ savings from A-Rod last year and spent it on IFA. Which would be all well and good if they didn't have the biggest revenue in the game (for now) and the highest ticket prices in the game. I understand not wanting to spend 150% of your next closest competitor, but to be spending 80% of what the Dodgers do with their revenue is pretty unreasonable in light of the cost of a Stadium experience.
You're not. Yankees fans are acting like babies on this thread. You'd think that the Red Sox just poached a 27 year old Jeter off their roster.
Yes, indeed...Jay Buhner for Ken Phelps...Bobby Meacham as our SS of the future...Clay Parker and Chuck Cary as our starting rotation of the future...Steve Trout...we could go on all day
Might be a good year for a guy making 9 million dollars a year. Not 22.
He should be making 13 million or so a year, instead he's making 22 and hitting 3rd.
If he's hitting 3rd again this year, our lineup is going to be a train wreck once again.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
I'd love 1992 again but the yanks are a brand so they have to field a team of stars... Bullshit. That line of thinking will keep this team away from October for a long time.
And that's no surprise.
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
Lol at those "questions". Come on.
And that's no surprise.
we'll give you ellsbury for free right now. Just pay the contract.
The Yankees signing ellsbury made zero sense. They have ellsbury already on the roster. Gardner and ellsbury had basically the same season last year. Ellsbury was overpaid by 10 million per year
I'm not saying I didn't want Moncada, but perhaps the Yankees asked themselves questions like:
- What kind of proven 2B can we get for $70M in the next 1-2 years?
- Is it possible we have a solid middle infielder in the farm system already (i.e. Refsnyder, Mateo, Aguilar, etc.)?
They didn't plunder Latin America, they made some nice, reasonable-priced signings prior to the IFA binge. All well and good. And if you're a small or mid-market team making some judicious amateur signings is a good idea. But when you're the fucking Yankees, and you wonder why your attendance is slowly declining and your stopgaps aren't quite enough, you shouldn't sit out every premium Latin American signing over a five or six year period and then tell your fans how committed you are to winning.
Exactly one year in his career has he been one of the better players in the game.
Every other year, he's been a pretty good player. It's not just injuries that hold him back. He played 149 games last year. And he was just "pretty good". Far from worth 22 million
Ellsbury was a 3.6 WAR player, meaning he outperformed his contract last season. He is far from the 3rd worst contract in baseball. Melvin "Dont Call me BJ" Upton is still owed 46 million, and hasnt been positive WAR in either of his first two seasons. Ryan Howard is owed $60mm and is so bad that there are reports that no one will take him even if Philly eats the whole contract. Josh Hamilton is 33 and very hurt, and is owed $25.4, 32.4, and 32.4 in the next three years, respectively. Ellsbury doesnt have a mega bad deal -- there is a pretty decent chance he outperforms it for at least half the years.
Re others' comments: RBIs and spot in the batting order are pretty ridiculous grounds to criticize a guy on. Neither have all that much to do with the player. A 16 HR 39 SB OF who can defend is a good thing. Crawford is owed $83mm.
Brett Gardner had a higher WAR last year than Ellsbury did, at least according to ESPN
I feel like we need to step back from the ledge a bit here and realize that missing out on Moncada isn't the end of the world. Also, I feel like Yankees fans have been very quick to completely give up on the signings of Ellsbury and Beltran - but that's another story.
What is the hope with this franchise right now? They have bad contracts galore and continue giving them out, they have a shit farm system. They have no one ready to come up that can really be a top player.
The organization is in terrible shape no matter what way you look at it. It's going to get significantly worse before it has a chance to get better. And i'd be fine with it getting significantly worse if they actually had a plan on how to build it back up, but they don't.
Joel Sherman @Joelsherman1 · 2h 2 hours ago
#Redsox -- like #Cubs b4 them -- see hitting deficiency and are accumulating young, potential impact bats