Is the 4-3 Defense Holding the Giants Back in the 1st Round?

and next year if there are top 4-3 linemen available should we change it back.

Oh! and if "Williams/Amari/White/Shelton & both QBs are all gone..." they'll take Parker.

.

but what are you supposed to do, switch your system every year based on the draft?

Fowler is not a consensus LB. Currently at 261 - already played DE at FL at 278. Get him to 270 and he is a DE

I have zero issues with him being the pick.

To me Dupree is not close to a top 10 player.

Gregory is Aldon Smith - tall pass rushing 3-4LB

I trust Spags could utilize Beasley, while Fewell would not

I would take him as well

Defenses are going more toward lighter and faster guys. I have advocated for a switch to a 3-4 because of this reason. My point is that this isn't an anomaly. This is the norm. It is becoming harder and hard to find these 4-3 DEs in today's NFL. I was 100% on board with switching and felt now was the perfect time to do so. However, once we got Spags it makes sense to stay where we ars and work through it.

I am talking about college.

then they would have to get the proper LB's to run a 3 - 4. Your argument is not valid.

have you not watched the combine? I would venture a guess and say 7 olinemen go in the first round.

In comment 12149698 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

Defenses are going more toward lighter and faster guys. I have advocated for a switch to a 3-4 because of this reason. My point is that this isn't an anomaly. This is the norm. It is becoming harder and hard to find these 4-3 DEs in today's NFL. I was 100% on board with switching and felt now was the perfect time to do so. However, once we got Spags it makes sense to stay where we ars and work through it.

Not any harder than it is to find 34 DE or 34 NT. How many 34 de are first round caliber? arik armstead and 34 NT maybe 2 Jordan Phillips and Shelton. The problem is finding big and athletic defensive linemen to handle the fast paced game because not many exist

In comment 12149677 81_Great_Dane said:

Quote:

.

This is all that needs to be said.

If not then a 6-0-5.

a general question about your statement:

Quote:

Defenses are going more toward lighter and faster guys. I have advocated for a switch to a 3-4 because of this reason.

I probably have this wrong, but I thought in a 3-4, the defensive linemen need to be larger to play "2 gap". So we're talking about a 310+ lb NT and 290+ DEs. Also, in a 3-4, the LBs have to be larger 240+, especially the ILBs to take on OGs. The OLBs in a 3-4 are typically (I think) larger than their 4-3 OLB counterparts.

So isn't it the case that for a 3-4, the defensive players are typically larger than the those playing the same or equivalent positions in a 4-3, not lighter? The "major difference" is the 3-4 has an additional ILB that is of course smaller than the second DT in the 4-3, right?

I think the general consensus is that on a 4-3 defense, the "top athletes / top draft picks" are on the DL, whereas in a 3-4, the "top athletes / top draft picks" are LBs. In the 3-4 you need the top athletes who can both regularly rush the passer, play the run and cover.

So as I see it, it's not that 3-4 vs 4-3 is an issue of lighter / faster (I actually think 3-4 players are larger), but where the "top athletes" are?

In 2007, both Osi and Strahan played in the 250-260 range. Fowler would be fine as/is (especially since the word is his improvement this year was tied to weight loss) at DE, IMO. Gregory has the frame to add weight too. Ray would concern me, and I wonder if Beasley has now maxed his frame as well. The bigger issue I have is that the 3-4 teams aren't afraid to take a 270 lb DE and play him at OLB. The reverse isn't true for 4-3 teams, typically. That's the big disadvantage.

....on 4-3 vs. 3-4 defense....starting QB....etc. etc.

was almost picked by Reese in the first round. Yes, the later was right after Spags left, but it was supposed to be a similar defensive concept under Sheridan. I guess #3 on this list is that they almost signed Schofield last year?

Point is while they're likely to remain a 4-3 team, they've shown that they're willing to try to fit in undersized pass rushers/rush LBs - they just haven't been successful. Hopefully that changes under Spags?

the Eagles playing a 4-3 Ohio St held Oregon to 3-14 on third down playing a 4-3. The Cowboys do not play a spread. One of Fewell's problems with them was ever time he tried to go light, he got the ball run up his ass. Detroit dominated, at times, the same offense playing a 4-3. The position that 3-4 personnel are more effective stopping spread and read-option offenses is unsupportable.

In comment 12149715 213374 said:

Quote:

have you not watched the combine? I would venture a guess and say 7 olinemen go in the first round.

Yes, I have. None of the O-Linemen deserve to be top-10 picks. All either need to play Guard or flip over to RT, to draft any of them is a bad allocation of resources especially the highest pick in years.

control the LOS with 4 guys and then have a fast back seven that your line can keep free.

Those are good questions. I'm talking strictly pass rushers. You can find 275+ pass rushers but they are rare. The pass rushers for the most part, imo, seem to be guys that are 240-260.

You are right that you need bigger guys in some aspects of a 3-4. The DL is big but those guys aren't normally the pass rushers. They are usually eating up blockers unless you run a Houston/Wade Phillips 3-4 scheme. Those 3-4 DL bodies are like finding DTs. They aren't any harder than other positions. Those 3-4 NTs are a rare breed and probably the hardest players to find for that scheme but they are out there.

As far as the inside backers go, they don't have to be that quick but stronger type of players. Look at the group of LBs this year. There isn't much speed there because those guys are working out with the edge rushers and DL at the combine because that is where the money is. They are like the Danny DeVitos in the movie Twins. They got the crap while all the Arnolds are those OLBs in a 3-4. The LB group outside of Dupree were very underwhelming imo yesterday. There are many more 3-4 inside LBs than 4-3 LBs that need to be able to run sideline to sideline. Hell, the cream of the crop, Shaq Thompson, wasn't impressive either. Dupree, on film, is very inconsistent and not very strong. You really have to do your homework to find a LB in this groups that fits better in a 4-3 than a 4-3.

Imo, and this is just opinion, this trend has been happening for years and we see it taking its toll. Look at all these rush LBs having success yet we have a different mold of LB and we struggle to draft, sign or develop these guys. Why? We went from Strahan, Osi, Tuck, Kiwi and JPP to what? I really like Moore but he is still a work in progress. If JPP did leave then who do we have that we have developed? We know how to draft DEs. We know howto develop them. We have tried to bring in DE talent. Why has there been such a decline for us? Imo, it is because the players are changing.

We can still make this work, especially with Spags, but do you at least see my point that the 4-3 DE is a dying breed? You don't have the Mario Williams, JPP, Clowney types readily available. When you do have them they are top picks because of their ability but also because they are so rare.

In comment 12149675 BillT said:

Quote:

and next year if there are top 4-3 linemen available should we change it back. Oh! and if "Williams/Amari/White/Shelton & both QBs are all gone..." they'll take Parker.

There generally is readily more high end Rush OLBs available during past drafts than true 4-3 DEs. And Parker looked stiff at the hips to me and not a polished receiver who knows the route tree, too much gamble on upside.

Both work. My point is that there seems to be more opportunities to fill your gaps on defense through the draft with 3-4 positions. It doesn't mean it is impossible to construct a 4-3 defense through the draft.

In comment 12149820 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

Both work. My point is that there seems to be more opportunities to fill your gaps on defense through the draft with 3-4 positions. It doesn't mean it is impossible to construct a 4-3 defense through the draft.

exactly what I'm trying to say Robbie, especially the top tier rushers that are coming out at the 3-4 are rush OLBs with freak measurables but light in the waist. Unfortunately they wouldnt fare well with their hand on the ground against the run game.

Beasley looks like a guy with enough athleticism to make the transition to a 4-3 WLB. That way you can blitz him and you don't have to worry about him getting swallowed up by OT's on running plays.

I agree in that the "two way" 4-3 DEs are, IMHO, like the "two way" (or maybe "three way") 3-4 OLBs; the cream of the defensive crop. These are typically first round top 15 (in some cases, top 5) draft picks.

Are these 3-4 OLB "edge pass rushers" really going to be able to be 3 down players, in 4 WRs sets; (some may, many may not)? One 3-4 OLB will typically rush the passer, the other will be out in coverage. Lighter 4-3 OLBs have trouble with Darren Sproles and Julian Edelman types; bigger 3-4 OLBs should have even more trouble (unless they are LT version 2.0).

I guess finding fast and strong 4-3 DEs and 3-4 OLBs is a tough proposition. I haven't studied this, but it seems you think there are more "great athlete" 3-4 OLBs than 4-3 DEs, which might justify a team (not necessarily the Giants) to switch to 3-4?

No studs in the front 7

In comment 12149985 djstat said:

Quote:

No studs in the front 7

It's what Coughlin is familiar with and wants to run.

Each year there are more top tier 3-4 edge rusher prospects going into the draft than there are 4-3 pass rusher prospects. Could speak to the change in college philosophy or something else. Maybe I am just noticing it now and there have always been more 3-4 prospects. Who knows

Osi reportedly played at 245 pounds for a while (according to an interview with Renaldo Wynn back in 2008. He said then defensive line coach Mike Waufle did not care what weight his pass rushers played at as long as they get pressure. He then went on to comment how Osi plays at 245 pounds. I believe around that time Strahan was playing at 255