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Kevin White over Amari Cooper?

Big Rick in FL : 2/26/2015 9:46 am
I've watched plenty of both of them. Watched both of their combines and Amari Cooper looks like the much better player to me.

Got into a discussion with a few people on Twitter last night that think White is way better then Cooper. Somebody please try and sell me on that? Only reason I keep seeing is that he is faster. Yes in a 40 he is, but on the field he isn't. Let's hear some opinions please and thanks!
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This question would only seem to matter if both players are there at 9  
wgenesis123 : 2/26/2015 10:45 am : link
I look at how hard it was to cover OBJ when he makes that first cut, DB's just could not stay with him. I think that would be more Cooper than White. But White sounds like a better compliment to OBJ, and Eli will throw White open by going up for the ball. Playing with Cruz, OBJ, and Eli will benefit either player and perhaps make them look like the better choice. White really just turned it on last year and may have more room to improve, Cooper probably is less likely to fail.
Cooper with a 6.71-3 cone  
Coach Mason : 2/26/2015 10:45 am : link
Tops for any receiver over 200lbs
We will be lucky if either is available at 9  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 2/26/2015 10:45 am : link
If so, I hope we have done enough in free agency to pick one of these guys. We would be dominant with either.
If neither is available  
Torrag : 2/26/2015 10:47 am : link
Then a pass rusher or Scherff will be. We're going to get a very good player. I've moved on from Parker as an option. Doesn't quite carry a Top 10 grade imo.
Kind of a moot issue for the Giants since most draft gurus  
Marty in Albany : 2/26/2015 10:51 am : link
predict that Cooper will be long gone by the ninth pick.
White could be gone as well.
RE: Kind of a moot issue for the Giants since most draft gurus  
Stupendamatic : 2/26/2015 11:00 am : link
In comment 12153733 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
predict that Cooper will be long gone by the ninth pick.
White could be gone as well.


The same way Prince was right?
Marty  
Big Rick in FL : 2/26/2015 11:02 am : link
Actually most draft gurus after the combine have White as the 1st WR off the board. With Cooper falling to 9 or even below 9. Which I find absurd.

People give the edge to White in ball skills but why? Cooper had less drops then White. That is also with him getting more catchable targets his way. So less drops on more targets is worse ball skills?

I don't see the Reggie Wayne comparison to Cooper either. I'd compare him to Odell as a prospect. Obviously not the Odell we saw in the pros.
Simple guys: If Cooper, White and Parker were all there at #9  
SGMen : 2/26/2015 11:05 am : link
You take Cooper and never look back.

Cooper comes in as a rookie and plays. Cruz may never come back to 100% so he could be your #3 wideout day one!

I wish this draft had a true BlueChip QB & Defender who were clearly #1 and #2 just so it would be easier to figure out the rest!
Cooper  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 11:15 am : link
had a shit ton more easy screen passes than White, which would play into the drop rate. White is better on 50-50 balls. But Cooper is better at creating 60-40 opportunities.
True Blue Chip or not  
Torrag : 2/26/2015 11:15 am : link
there is a strong possibility Winston and Williams go 1-2 in this draft.
I'd gladly take either one  
Eric on Li : 2/26/2015 11:18 am : link
It's a passing game and we've seen how hard it is for even great defenses to adjust to multiple threats on the field at once (Nicks/Cruz/Manningham in '12). Don't think either will be on the board though.
Big Rick. I don't think that measurables mean that much here  
Marty in Albany : 2/26/2015 11:29 am : link
as talent and football skills. Cooper has that and more. None of Cooper's talents were diminished by what he did at the combine. I don't see why anyone would lower his draft status based on the combine.

If White is as good, or better than Cooper, then BOTH will be gone before the ninth pick. Although White is big and fast, he is not overpoweringly big and fast. He is not a Megatron clone.

As for Prince, that was a very rare piece of luck. And I emphasize the word rare.
are these guys doing pro days?  
Bake54 : 2/26/2015 11:34 am : link
or is this it before the draft?
I would take Cooper over White  
blueblood : 2/26/2015 11:36 am : link
but I can see why some people would prefer the higher ceiling player whose game is still ascending. The perception of Cooper by some is this is the best he is ever going to be.. hence the low floor... It also depends on the offense you have in place. Cooper would do very well in this offense..
RE: Marty  
blueblood : 2/26/2015 11:44 am : link
In comment 12153755 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
Actually most draft gurus after the combine have White as the 1st WR off the board. With Cooper falling to 9 or even below 9. Which I find absurd.

People give the edge to White in ball skills but why? Cooper had less drops then White. That is also with him getting more catchable targets his way. So less drops on more targets is worse ball skills?

I don't see the Reggie Wayne comparison to Cooper either. I'd compare him to Odell as a prospect. Obviously not the Odell we saw in the pros.


Cooper doesnt compare to Odell as a prospect. Odell didnt have the same production.. Odell was considered by most to be the fourth or fifth receiver in the draft. Cooper is slightly taller.. bigger by about 10-12 lbs and was far more productive in college.

I make the Reggie Wayne comparison because they are similar size coming out of college ( Cooper is a little bigger ) both were very very good running routes and both very quick in an put of their breaks which of course assists them in getting open at the pro level. Both had the quick burst in a short area and change of direction ability.

To me the comparing player X to player Y in terms of who they are like professionally and is very subjective. And doesnt matter in the end..
Cooper is the best WR in this draft...  
Amtoft : 2/26/2015 11:47 am : link
forget 40 time. You think White is better than OBJ because he is taller and runs faster? No of course not. Something you need to really look at... Cooper played in a pro style slow offense where he was the focal point for every team to stop and put up insane numbers. He had to run pro routes and had to run them well to get open. White played in a very fast uptempo basic offense that keeps defenses off guard and makes it tough to double team players. While he is a good WR he wouldn't of been nearly as successful as Cooper was if he was at Alabama. What Cooper did was insane when you consider what percent he was of the catches, yards, and TDs.

Give me Cooper every time.
who said White is better than OBJ ?  
blueblood : 2/26/2015 11:55 am : link
huh ??
I'm comparing Odell & Cooper  
Big Rick in FL : 2/26/2015 12:08 pm : link
As a prospect because I think they played a similar type of game in college football. Odell was ranked the 3rd WR at worst by any halfway decent draft analyst.
Blue Blood  
Big Rick in FL : 2/26/2015 12:09 pm : link
Your 2nd paragraph is essentially the scouting report on Odell Beckham Jr last year.
I'm not sure why you say you can't compare  
Big Rick in FL : 2/26/2015 12:14 pm : link
Odell & Amari. Citing production. Yet compare Wayne and Amari. Reggie Wayne never had more then 800 yards receiving in college.

Both Odell & Amari had scouting reports that say they are good route runners, big soft hands and they are good in and out of breaks. Can score from anywhere. Have trouble blocking & catching the ball in traffic.

Once again not talking pro Odell. He was much better as a Pro then anybody thought he'd be. Very similar players in college though.
RE: who said White is better than OBJ ?  
Amtoft : 2/26/2015 12:14 pm : link
In comment 12153855 blueblood said:
Quote:
huh ??


I said that because people are acting like now that White measured in 2 inches taller than Cooper and ran a 4.35 compared to a 4.42 that he is now better than Cooper. He isn't better at all and speed is only so important. OBJ measured in at 5'11 and ran a 4.43 or something. Would you now put White over OBJ because he is taller and ran faster? No of course you wouldn't. People over react when they see results at the combine. A faster, taller player does not make them a better player.
Amtoft  
Big Rick in FL : 2/26/2015 12:17 pm : link
Exactly what I am getting at. You can say White has a higher ceiling, but nobody can say he is a better player then Cooper is right now. It's 3 years of production in the best conference in football compared to 1 year of production in a very lackluster conference.
I see Beckham  
blueblood : 2/26/2015 12:17 pm : link
as being more sudden and having more natural athletic ability than Cooper.. but again.. thats subjective as I said before..

But for the record.. I would take Cooper over White.. because I also look at what Cooper does to get open.. he sets up defenders well with the positioning and head fakes etc etc.. thats stuff that doesnt show up in the combine..

Im all over the map this draft.. I would love another receiver.. Id love a RB.. I am kind of partial to Coleman from Indiana... We need defense.. we need another DT and LB help...
Here is the difference  
ANGPASS : 2/26/2015 12:28 pm : link
White fits the gilbride system better (great for deep balls. not as good with quick routes)

Cooper fits the Mcadoo system better. (better at short, intermediate routes and also can go deep)

for us, cooper is a better pick. also, consider the fact that he will be the 3rd option his rookie year, he will be able to do a lot more.
Cooper has bigger hands  
Phil in LA : 2/26/2015 12:33 pm : link
and that's why he's better at catching than White. Not when and where he gets it. He just has huge mits.
Big Rick  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 12:35 pm : link
you could definitely argue that White is better than Cooper right now.

- bigger
- faster
- quicker off the snap
- better against press coverage
- better at making 50/50 catches downfield

These are all edges for White right now. I agree that I like Cooper better, but White definitely has a stronger argument than what you're making out. Cooper doesn't explode at the snap like Beckham does. He's very quick but not as explosive as Beckham.
Cooper is the better player right now.  
TC : 2/26/2015 12:36 pm : link
He is smooth and polished. In fact, one of the smoothest and most polished WR's I've seen coming out of school. He knows his body, has all his skills refined, and knows exactly how to do his job. I can't see his transition to the NFL being a difficult one, and I see his bust potential as being low. But because of those factors, I don't know how much more can be expected of him.

White isn't a raw prospect, but compared to Cooper, his skill set and knowledge of how to play his position is immature. Physically, he's a spectacularly gifted WR, and if those skills and knowledge can grow and mature, he could be a very special wide receiver in the NFL, Dez Bryant level ability. But even if he were to continue to play the game exactly as he is, I think he has enough pure physical talent to contribute substantially right off the top. However, if he can maximize that physical ability through improving his skill set and knowledge, he could be insane.
I'm not sure I'd take White before Cooper either,  
barens : 2/26/2015 12:37 pm : link
But if you want to make an argument, then watch tape of White blowing up Alabama's vaunted defense when they played against each other. Could Cooper have had that same impact if the roles were reversed?
Phil  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 12:38 pm : link
there's definitely a correlation between bigger hands and better hands. But it's not 100%. Both guys have great hands but both White and Parker have flashed a bigger catch radius than Cooper.
RE: Phil  
Amtoft : 2/26/2015 12:49 pm : link
In comment 12153981 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
there's definitely a correlation between bigger hands and better hands. But it's not 100%. Both guys have great hands but both White and Parker have flashed a bigger catch radius than Cooper.


White does not have "great" hands... He has had drop issues. Parker as well. Don't get me wrong I am a big fan of all 3, but give me the better hands, better route runner, quicker guy over the slightly taller and/or slightly faster guy.
RE: Big Rick  
chris r : 2/26/2015 12:53 pm : link
In comment 12153971 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
you could definitely argue that White is better than Cooper right now.

- bigger
- faster
- quicker off the snap
- better against press coverage
- better at making 50/50 catches downfield

These are all edges for White right now. I agree that I like Cooper better, but White definitely has a stronger argument than what you're making out. Cooper doesn't explode at the snap like Beckham does. He's very quick but not as explosive as Beckham.


Where are you getting that he's quicker off the snap?

And I'm not sure he's faster either. See the video I posted as well as game tape. And I don't think he's better vs the press either. He's bigger and better at making contested catches.
according to Brandt  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 12:53 pm : link
White had 8 drops last year and Cooper had 6. So it's not some massive difference in dropsies. Plus I think White typically had harder passes to catch because he couldn't run himself open as easily as Cooper could and he didn't have as many easy screen passes.

I guess catching radius is different from hands. Cooper might have the best hands from the trio. But he also definitely has the smallest catching radius. I think that's Parker's best asset and where the AJ Green comps come from.
They are both good  
blueblood : 2/26/2015 12:55 pm : link
period..

Don't like Parker's feet  
Phil in LA : 2/26/2015 12:56 pm : link
and still like Cooper much more than one year White. Now, I like White, but only in a trade down. I'd take Cooper at 9.
chris  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 12:56 pm : link
based on watching the NFLdraftbreakdown/youtube vids of White and Cooper. I watched plenty of Bama games so I've seen a ton of Cooper, I haven't seen much WVU or Louisville games so I have to rely on those vids.

But one thing I definitely see with White is that he gets 0-60 faster than Cooper or Parker. I was surprised at his deep speed in the 40. But that ability to get to full speed quickly is White's biggest edge over Parker and Cooper imo.
RE: I'm not sure I'd take White before Cooper either,  
Amtoft : 2/26/2015 12:57 pm : link
In comment 12153977 barens said:
Quote:
But if you want to make an argument, then watch tape of White blowing up Alabama's vaunted defense when they played against each other. Could Cooper have had that same impact if the roles were reversed?


First Alabama had the 58th best pass defense last year. Could Cooper have had the same impact as White? of course he could and probably would have. That same game he went 12-130 compared to White's 9-143-1 ... that is with Alabama only throwing 33 times completely only 24 passes (half of the completions were to Cooper) for 250 yards (over half the yards were to Cooper). WVU on the other hand threw it 45 times completing 29 (less than a 3rd to White) for 365 yards (less than half to White)... That was with Cooper being the focal stopping point also.
also chris  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 12:57 pm : link
you do realize that Cooper is the slowest in that vid, right?
RE: according to Brandt  
Amtoft : 2/26/2015 1:10 pm : link
In comment 12154012 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
White had 8 drops last year and Cooper had 6. So it's not some massive difference in dropsies. Plus I think White typically had harder passes to catch because he couldn't run himself open as easily as Cooper could and he didn't have as many easy screen passes.

I guess catching radius is different from hands. Cooper might have the best hands from the trio. But he also definitely has the smallest catching radius. I think that's Parker's best asset and where the AJ Green comps come from.


What were his drops from the year before? Again I like White, but his hands aren't as good as Coopers. You don't see drop issue ever associated with Cooper, but you do see it with White. It is a concern. Remember Cooper played against LSU, Auburn, Miss State, Ole Miss, etc in a pro style slow down offense and put up Monster numbers as the sole concern in the passing game. White put up great numbers in a fast tempo passing offense that had multiple WR sets to defend and Mario Alfred to also worry about.
Big Rick...  
M.S. : 2/26/2015 1:40 pm : link
...we already drafted a better version of Cooper.

OBJ.

If the Giants go WR at 9, they will need their heads examined, but if they do and both guys are sitting there (highly unlikely) I take that stud from West Va.

Why?

Much better complement to OBJ (and Cruz if he ever makes it back).

But WR at #9 is an idiot choice for the worst POA team in the NFL.

And that's where the game is won. Not at WR, but at the POA.
Osi  
Big Rick in FL : 2/26/2015 1:51 pm : link
No Cooper is the fastest guy in that vid. #35 is Parker. White has the dreads.
RE: Big Rick...  
blueblood : 2/26/2015 1:57 pm : link
In comment 12154107 M.S. said:
Quote:
...we already drafted a better version of Cooper.

OBJ.

If the Giants go WR at 9, they will need their heads examined, but if they do and both guys are sitting there (highly unlikely) I take that stud from West Va.

Why?

Much better complement to OBJ (and Cruz if he ever makes it back).

But WR at #9 is an idiot choice for the worst POA team in the NFL.

And that's where the game is won. Not at WR, but at the POA.


Disagree completely. First off we still have the Free Agency period which will begin next month. The Giants could fill holes on the OL and DL in FA possibly.. I expect them to definitely address the OL...

If the value on the receiver is MUCH higher than that on the OL or DL.. you take the best player available..
Coming out of college  
Big Rick in FL : 2/26/2015 2:03 pm : link
I don't think Odell was a better player then Cooper. The stats definitely don't back that statement up.

Even if Cooper is 75% the player that Beckham is then you run to the podium at 9.
RE: Osi  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 2:19 pm : link
In comment 12154127 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
No Cooper is the fastest guy in that vid. #35 is Parker. White has the dreads.


Damn my bad, got Parker and Cooper mixed up. Cooper definitely looks like he has the best deep speed in that vid.
Someone said that Cosell was interested in Perriman.  
Ira : 2/26/2015 2:21 pm : link
I just took a look at a video and it's really hard to evaluate because UCF's quarterback is so bad.
RE: Someone said that Cosell was interested in Perriman.  
Amtoft : 2/26/2015 2:33 pm : link
In comment 12154212 Ira said:
Quote:
I just took a look at a video and it's really hard to evaluate because UCF's quarterback is so bad.


He had hands issue also. I hope we look later if we don't go WR round 1. Aghalor or Greene in the 3rd would be nice to me. I also really like Antwan Goodley from Baylor. If didn't have some injury stuff he would have been a second rounder IMO. He would be a nice pick up in the 4th-6th round range
I don't think the Giants would have to have their heads examined  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/26/2015 2:57 pm : link
if they took Cooper.

You'd have to be a fool to pass on that talent if it fell in your lap. They would not be doing their jobs as talent evaluators if they did that.
RE: I don't think the Giants would have to have their heads examined  
Coach Mason : 2/26/2015 3:43 pm : link
In comment 12154276 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
if they took Cooper.

You'd have to be a fool to pass on that talent if it fell in your lap. They would not be doing their jobs as talent evaluators if they did that.


If Cooper and Williams are the only 2 non QB blue chip guys on our draft board and Cooper was there, how do you pass that up?
Well, if the Giants Have an Amari Cooper or a Kevin White...  
M.S. : 2/26/2015 5:19 pm : link
...hugely ahead of anyone else, and they are both there at 9, then I suppose Jerry Reese would select one of them.

But it could just be that he also has a POA player in the same row as one of these two, in which case "need" comes in to play big time.

But just remember this: OBJ is an outright star, already one of the game's best as just a rookie.

But for all his brilliance and all his gaudy stats, the Giants sucked as a team.

Absolutely sucked.

blueblood... if we don't go POA early and often this draft, I sure hope you're right that we pick up some decent FAs. And I mean on both sides of the ball. We suck at the POA on both sides of the ball.
RE: I don't think the Giants would have to have their heads examined  
jerseyblue56 : 2/27/2015 10:42 am : link
If the Giants feel uncertain about the ability of Victor Cruz to return to top form they should select Cooper if he is there because his skills translate better to the slot position and kick returner. Cooper runs sharp routes and loses corner backs in that manner. I think he can be a pro-bowl player and star as a slot man. I do not think he is better than White as a flanker because he rarely leaps up to fight for and catch the ball at its highest point that White does extremely well. He out muscles the corner for the ball.

If the G-men believe they need another Flanker who is better than Ruben Randle or Corey Washington than White is the more logical choice. I think that Corey showed last pre-season that he would make a very good flanker, and I like him more than Ruben. Because of the question about Cruz returning to his former level of play I think the Giants would prefer to take Cooper. That selection would match a need with a quality player with first round talent. Of course, this is assuming that he will still be there at 9.

I would not take White if cooper is gone unless the Giants think the difference between him and Corey justifies it.
Any of the 3 WR's will likely carry one of the top grades at 9  
Coach Mason : 2/27/2015 10:48 am : link
However DE as always is a wildcard due to premium placed on position. Free Agency will give some clues depending on which positions we address and to what extent.
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