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NFT: Knicks chat: Rondo- yes? or no?

DanMetroMan : 2/26/2015 10:17 am
"The root of the Rondo-Carlisle crisis is a simmering disagreement about whether the Mavs were best off with the genius former Coach of the Year or brilliant four-time All-Star point guard calling the majority of the plays.

Rondo, a nine-year veteran with one of the highest basketball IQs in the league, believes that's a big part of his job as a point guard. Carlisle, one of the NBA's best offensive minds, doesn't want to hand the keys of his sports car over to a guy he just met.

It's similar to the friction between Carlisle and future Hall of Fame point guard Jason Kidd during their first season together, except they never had "SportsCenter"-leading shouting matches. Carlisle ceded control to Kidd in midseason, and that duo played prominent roles in the Mavs' title run a few years later.

Could history repeat itself? Don't hold your breath. The reality is Rondo's run with the Mavs is extremely unlikely to extend past this season. "

I wanted Rondo BADLY in the draft and I'm still a fan but I'm very concerned with his fit in the triangle and even more important.. he's ALWAYS hurt. Find it hard to believe that improves in his age 30-34 seasons. Rajon Rondo has played 68, 53, 38, 30 and 47 games (so far) the past 5 seasons
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I love Boogie. Love, love Boogie.  
BeerFridge : 2/26/2015 12:32 pm : link
He's highly paid, but he's the kind of player you hope a top pick would turn into. And Boogie in new york? woo hoo!


Bring me Boogie!

haha...  
Italianju : 2/26/2015 12:33 pm : link
i def would not be complaining about:

???
Mathews
Melo
Monroe
Cousins

You could find some vet pretty easily to play with that team. A Collison level player prolly. Or just let Galloway play PG. He does seem like more of a 2 but with the rest of that team i think you can get away with him at PG.

Well back to reality......
Well look at this way to  
nygiants16 : 2/26/2015 12:33 pm : link
if Knicks somehow pulled this off filled as much of their roster they could with the 20-25 million they ahve to spend...

they would then have another 25 million give or take to go after Durant...

Now is Mathews Melo and Cousins attractive enough to lure Durant?
I do wonder if this is going to be Phil's plan  
nygiants16 : 2/26/2015 12:35 pm : link
rather than using the pick to get a young player, does he shop the pick in hopes of getting a vet superstar to put next to melo?
not that id say...  
Italianju : 2/26/2015 12:35 pm : link
"pass on Durant" but i think we would need two basketball if you had Durant, Melo, and Cousins.
im honestly ok if they want to...  
Italianju : 2/26/2015 12:37 pm : link
move the pick if they are looking at a Cousins type player. I wouldnt want to do it for anyone who is anywhere near 30 years old unless his name is Lebron or maybe Paul. It would have to be a mid twenties guy who is already a stud.
Nobody's benefitted more from superstars than Phil.  
bceagle05 : 2/26/2015 12:37 pm : link
The more he watches Okafor, the less he's gonna like him.
Look at the stars around the league that could possibly  
nygiants16 : 2/26/2015 12:38 pm : link
become available:

Demarcus Cousins: If Karl feels its time to move in another direction and start fresh...

Blake Griffin: clippers lose first round and Doc feels its time for a shake up since this core has not won much

Kevin Durant: Does Durant somehow force his way out if they fizzle out in the first round and he and westbrook clash...

Not saying any of these scenarios are likely but these are some things that may happen and if the Knicks have the number 1 pick it oculd be tempting
RE: im honestly ok if they want to...  
DanMetroMan : 2/26/2015 12:39 pm : link
In comment 12153975 Italianju said:
Quote:
move the pick if they are looking at a Cousins type player. I wouldnt want to do it for anyone who is anywhere near 30 years old unless his name is Lebron or maybe Paul. It would have to be a mid twenties guy who is already a stud.


Given Melo's age I really HOPE this is the plan. I'd be pretty floored if Okafor or Towns quickly become some stud and I'd say 0% chance ever is better than Cousins
RE: not that id say...  
nygiants16 : 2/26/2015 12:39 pm : link
In comment 12153972 Italianju said:
Quote:
"pass on Durant" but i think we would need two basketball if you had Durant, Melo, and Cousins.


It would definitely take a PG that could get all 3 the ball but could you imagine Melo and Cousins on one side of the triangle and Kevin Durant on the otherside or vice versa...

Durant or Melo shooting open 3's....drool
I do agree  
nygiants16 : 2/26/2015 12:42 pm : link
has to be for a guy that is 25-27 no 30 year old...
RE: haha...  
Audible : 2/26/2015 12:50 pm : link
In comment 12153967 Italianju said:
Quote:
i def would not be complaining about:

???
Mathews
Melo
Monroe
Cousins

You could find some vet pretty easily to play with that team. A Collison level player prolly. Or just let Galloway play PG. He does seem like more of a 2 but with the rest of that team i think you can get away with him at PG.

Well back to reality......


Eh... that team would really struggle to be above-average defensively. In re: Cousins' massive improvement on defense while Malone was there (per metrics), I'm more a believer than a skeptic, but if your frontcourt is those three guys you're never going to have top-shelf rim protection. And given the cap situation, Monroe is almost certainly going to get the max, which would make it very hard to get Matthews.

If Cousins was an actual option (again, pipe dream) and the Knicks got him in exchange for the #1 pick, I'd try to get Robin Lopez (an actual above-average defensive 5 who's a UFA and fits better with the rest of the frontcourt and with the Knicks' budget) and give Jimmy Butler a max offer sheet. That would give the Knicks a lineup with a legit "Big 3" and a chance to be an actual good defensive team.
Is anyone else  
EricNY33 : 2/26/2015 12:51 pm : link
the least bit concerned that Okafor or Towns or Russell might decide to stay in college? I know it doesn't seem likely but it's a possibility.
RE: Is anyone else  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 12:54 pm : link
In comment 12154008 EricNY33 said:
Quote:
the least bit concerned that Okafor or Towns or Russell might decide to stay in college? I know it doesn't seem likely but it's a possibility.


Not in the least.
Monroe's max would start at like 16..  
Italianju : 2/26/2015 12:57 pm : link
which would leave you around 11 to start mathews at. I dont know if thats enough or not.

There is zero chance any of the top 3 guys stay in college. Im all for education, but unless they get hurt it would be an absurdly stupid decision on their part to stay in school.
RE: Monroe's max would start at like 16..  
Audible : 2/26/2015 1:00 pm : link
In comment 12154021 Italianju said:
Quote:
which would leave you around 11 to start mathews at. I dont know if thats enough or not.

There is zero chance any of the top 3 guys stay in college. Im all for education, but unless they get hurt it would be an absurdly stupid decision on their part to stay in school.


11 is enough to make a fair offer for Matthews, but I'd say the odds of 11 actually getting him to leave PDX are probably not that great.
you will hear  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 1:01 pm : link
Okafor talk about how much he loves school and might stay blah blah blah all part of Coach K's PR machine, Parker did the same thing last year. Then he left and he never was going to stay regardless of what he said during the season
are we referring  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 1:02 pm : link
to teams using their cities airport codes now?
Looks like Towns is coming on strong  
EricNY33 : 2/26/2015 1:04 pm : link
for the #1 pick

Quote:
"Jahlil was always the better offensive option and Karl was always the better defensive option for big men," Ford said. "But while Okafor hasn't really improved at all defensively, you've seen Towns improve considerably offensively. If Towns can be equally effective offensively, he is a better prospect than Okafor. He's more athletic, a better rebounder, shot blocker, defender than Okafor will be. He's more fluid as a player."

Ford called it "crazy" that a near 7-footer has hit 94.4 percent of his free throws the last six games and noted that Towns's field-goal percentage around the basket is an impressive 73.5 percent for the season. He says all this to note that, if the eyeball test isn't enough, "I think the (NBA) analytics guys are in Towns' corner" over Okafor.

"Now, I'm not dogging Okafor, because I'm not sure I've ever seen a freshman as skilled as he is on the low block offensively," Ford said. "He's going to be big-time. He's going to be able to score the basketball in the NBA. But I think Towns could be the more complete player, and that's compelling. I think this is going to get really interesting."
They're  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 1:06 pm : link
a couple weeks behind BBI.
Mook  
EricNY33 : 2/26/2015 1:07 pm : link
LOL... that might be true, but BBI isn't making those decisions.

barring injury  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 1:09 pm : link
I think Towns is definitely going to get drafted ahead of Okafor. The outside shooting touch edge to Towns is a killer for Okafor's chances. A guy like Okafor needs to shoot better from the line and show a more consistent shot.
RE: barring injury  
EricNY33 : 2/26/2015 1:11 pm : link
In comment 12154047 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
I think Towns is definitely going to get drafted ahead of Okafor. The outside shooting touch edge to Towns is a killer for Okafor's chances. A guy like Okafor needs to shoot better from the line and show a more consistent shot.


I actually think it's the fact he's a better overall prospect. Okafor's physical limitations would scare me on defense at the next level.
I've always  
EricNY33 : 2/26/2015 1:12 pm : link
preferred Towns but I'd happily take Okafor. I think both of these guys, and Russell, are going to be stars. Mudiay might be too.
I  
DanMetroMan : 2/26/2015 1:13 pm : link
don't think outside shot or FT shooting has any impact on this potential decision. 100% defense related. If Okafor were even average or close to it defensively he'd be an absolute lock #1 even if he shot 60% from the line.
The top guys do all seem like awesome prospects...  
Italianju : 2/26/2015 1:15 pm : link
which is great news for us. Id be slightly dissapointed in Mudiay but that is 100% because i havent seen him and dont know jack about him. For all i know he could abuse Russell in pre draft workouts and i change my opinion.
RE: The top guys do all seem like awesome prospects...  
DanMetroMan : 2/26/2015 1:15 pm : link
In comment 12154061 Italianju said:
Quote:
which is great news for us. Id be slightly dissapointed in Mudiay but that is 100% because i havent seen him and dont know jack about him. For all i know he could abuse Russell in pre draft workouts and i change my opinion.


The Russell/Mudiay stuff is just internet BS until the workouts.
Anyone else think Okafor should return next year?  
Anakim : 2/26/2015 1:18 pm : link
Work on his defense?
obviously the D is the big reason for it  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 1:18 pm : link
but since Okafor's case over Towns was "better on Offense", it's really hurts his case that Towns has established a far more reliable mid-range shooting touch than him.

A no-D Big like Okafor needs to have a better outside shot than he has. Those two clanks last night were brutal. Almost as brutal as the defensive substitution.
RE: I  
EricNY33 : 2/26/2015 1:19 pm : link
In comment 12154059 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
don't think outside shot or FT shooting has any impact on this potential decision. 100% defense related. If Okafor were even average or close to it defensively he'd be an absolute lock #1 even if he shot 60% from the line.


Definitely. Even if he was just a better athlete he'd be a lock. The polish he has in the post for a guy his age is amazing, especially in an era when big man post play is almost a lost art.
RE: Anyone else think Okafor should return next year?  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 1:21 pm : link
In comment 12154066 Anakim said:
Quote:
Work on his defense?


No. His defense isn't going to get any better in college than it will in the pros.
I don't think Okafor developing "a shot" is all that important.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 2/26/2015 1:22 pm : link
However, he must get better at the free throw line if he's going to be someone operating out of the low-block all the time.

I would still draft Okafor first despite acknowledging that KAT is clearly the more well-rounded prospect. (Heck, I posted a youtube clip in a thread almost 2 months ago which showed KAT's athletic ability when most people were questioning his ceiling.)
I've been  
Jon in NYC : 2/26/2015 1:22 pm : link
pretty anti-Okafor all along. I'd strongly consider Russell over both.
I got accused  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 1:22 pm : link
on BBI a month ago of only ripping Okafor because I hate Duke. That there was no concerns with him defensively. It wasn't a regular who said that but still annoying. I hate Duke but I dont care that he went to Duke when it comes to the pros. I was a bigger Kyrie Irving fan than most on here
I still haven't developed any opinion on Russell.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 2/26/2015 1:25 pm : link
He didn't play well in either of the OSU games I watched from beginning to end. I don't want to judge him solely off of that.
RE: I've been  
EricNY33 : 2/26/2015 1:26 pm : link
In comment 12154075 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
pretty anti-Okafor all along. I'd strongly consider Russell over both.


I'd be fine with Russell. IN fact, right now I'd probably have Towns and Russell as my top two choices, followed by Okafor.
Watching Jahlil  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 1:28 pm : link
Okafor try to defend the pick and roll is like watching Charles Brown trying to block someone last year.
RE: Watching Jahlil  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 2/26/2015 1:34 pm : link
In comment 12154088 MookGiants said:
Quote:
Okafor try to defend the pick and roll is like watching Charles Brown trying to block someone last year.


I don't disagree. Some of the clips before the move to the zone were frightening... it was as if he was playing blindfolded.

I just think about what a 19 year-old with his post moves will look like when he's 23 and still has 7 more years of prime left. I think he's a game changer offensively because he will draw so many double teams. He's also a solid rebounder, so it's not as if he's a complete zero outside of low block offense.
one thing about Okafor  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 1:34 pm : link
is that his body is far from developed. He'll never be a plus defender because of his lack of agility. But I think his size could allow him to be a passable defender once he's fit and has a grown man body.
Sorry if  
EricNY33 : 2/26/2015 2:43 pm : link
I shifted the conversation to the draft. My fault.

As for Rondo... I've never liked the fact that he couldn't shoot, but I had grown to like his defense and ability to penetrate whenever he wanted. However... now that it seems like he's a big brat I don't think his game is worth the hassle anymore.

I'm saying a big N-O on Rondo!
I always find it funny  
nygiants16 : 2/26/2015 2:46 pm : link
how different opinions are here compared to Realgm...Here everyone would love a trade fo rCousins...over there every single person said hell no

just funny to me
there's one Lakers fan  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 2/26/2015 3:17 pm : link
that posts on a Rockets forum that I read, he's pretty much the biggest insider I've ever encountered on sports forums. Clearly has connections in LA with agents. BBI would go batshit if they had an asshat of his caliber.

He says Rondo is absolutely gone from Dallas. And that he isn't going to get MAX money from the Lakers.

Not the biggest surprise but still a huge development if true. I wonder where he ends up if he's gone from Dallas, LA doesn't want him, and the Knicks don't want him.
RE: I always find it funny  
Enzo : 2/26/2015 3:57 pm : link
In comment 12154256 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
how different opinions are here compared to Realgm...Here everyone would love a trade fo rCousins...over there every single person said hell no

just funny to me

I used to check out realgm years ago. What a cluster. The basketball discussion here is light years ahead of anything I ever encountered there...at least on the Knicks forum.
Yeah  
DanMetroMan : 2/26/2015 4:01 pm : link
hell no to a 24 year old massive talent putting up huge numbers who 100% will be a better player than ANYONE in this draft if we are talking the near future. Most of BBI could build a good team with Melo/Cousins already in place let alone Phil Jackson.
there is risk  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 4:02 pm : link
involved with Cousins, it's not a no brainer imo. He's liable to go off the deep end at any point. And he's already paid a lot of money, so you dont potentially have the few years of a well underpaid stud (that of course is if everything goes well with the guy you pick, which is 50/50 at the very best).
The problem with Cousins has always been his head, not his talent  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/26/2015 4:03 pm : link
.
Cousins  
DanMetroMan : 2/26/2015 4:04 pm : link
is 3rd in rebounding, 7th in scoring, 14th in blocks, 9th in PER. Anyone who would turn down the pick for Cousins needs their heads examined.
I wonder what the market  
Enzo : 2/26/2015 4:05 pm : link
would be like for Cousins. From a talent standpoint, every team in the league could use him, but he obviously comes with baggage.
RE: there is risk  
DanMetroMan : 2/26/2015 4:06 pm : link
In comment 12154368 MookGiants said:
Quote:
involved with Cousins, it's not a no brainer imo. He's liable to go off the deep end at any point. And he's already paid a lot of money, so you dont potentially have the few years of a well underpaid stud (that of course is if everything goes well with the guy you pick, which is 50/50 at the very best).


Odds of anyone in this draft sniffing Cousins as a player is extremely low. Go off the deep end seems silly to me, he'll always be fiery etc but ZBO and Rasheed Wallace were sheer lunatics, Rodman the list goes on and on, this guy is a monster.
If you could give the Cavs truth serum  
MookGiants : 2/26/2015 4:07 pm : link
right now I bet they regret the Wiggins for Love trade.

Not the complete same circumstance, and I do like Wiggins more than Love, but sometimes those trades wind up being ones you regret. That trade is going to look like a complete disaster if Love doesn't win a championship with the Cavs.
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